3.12.15 amōgst many other which plainly proveth Ansvver that many errors so they be not of obstinacy may be built by a Christian vpon the fundation Christ Iesus yet be a true Christian still For which see further Maister Iacobs answer in pag. 192. Againe there are errors simply fundamētall which of their owne nature cleane abolish frō Christ such are the errors of the Arians concerning the Deitie of Christ of the Anabaptists concerning his humanitie of the Papists cōcerning Iustification by workes praying to trusting in Saincts and such like which directly raze the very foundation But that any one or all of the errors in the churches of Englād are of this force as you would seem to hold by all your 9. Reasons is most impious and vngodly to affirme And as Maister Iacob very well noteth in his answer to every one of them You therby overthrow the Martyrs in Queene Maries dayes from being christians who held the very same corruptions in their ministery worship c. which is now held in England But say you the Martyrs saw ne further Then you confesse against your selves that our errors doe not simply abolish from Christ as you every where affirme most vngodly especially in defence of your 7. Reason But that if men in these things see no further they are in the same estate with the Martyrs Now if you would have your Reasons hold you must prove the churches of England all conuicted in conscience which I hope you will not go about to doe Thus much concerning the nature of our errors whether they be of obstinacie or against the fundation directly which is the Second note I desier to be observed The Aunswer This second note of his is as foolish as frivolous as contumelions as the former See it here in his chaunging of the question between vs in his lessening of theyr corruptions in his mismatching of things vnequall in his abusing our difference of judgement and reviling off vs in his perverting the Scriptures and example of the Martyrs c. The Question between vs is not as he pretendeth but thus First concerning them VVhether the good doctrines of the Church of England being joyned together vvith theyr Antichristian errors and corruptions do make theyr Assemblyes and people in that estate to be true Churches and Christians Then concerning vs VVhether notvvithstanding the good doctrines professed in theyr Church vve may and ought to separate from theyr Antichristian Ministery vvorship confusion c. That thus the question standeth between vs themselves cannot deny though they seek to alter and turne from it here and every where Therefore do we also desier thee good Reader to mynd it well and not to be carryed away with the view of theyr good doctrines alone from the question and matter in hand but alway to have an especiall regard therevnto Notwithstanding if the question were as here he pretendeth perthen both his owne and all Mr Iacobs defence of the Church of England is even thus also quite ouerthrowen For now it appeareth that both of them do vnderstand theyr Argument following as if it were thus propounded Whatsoever is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of salvation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church Mr Iacobs Argument as it is novv vnderstood by themselves notwithstanding the multitude of errors and corruptions retayned among them But the whole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of salvation viz. such a one as in simplicity of heart beleveth and embraceth it And the publik Assemblyes of England are in theyr estate companyes so gathered together that is they do in simplicity of heart so beleev and embrace Therefore it is sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches notwithstanding the multitude of theyr errors and corruptions The Argument then being thus propounded as by this note of his it must needs be marke I pray you what followeth herevpon 1. That as it hath ben propounded hitherto it concludeth not the Question but is lame both in the Proposition and Assumption as I have noted more particularly hereafter Pag. 4. 10. 12. 13. 93. 97. 99. 106. 2. That in theyr estate we must mynd not theyr good doctrines alone but theyr errors and corruptions withall Of which there is never a word in all theyr Argument See it Pag. 3 4. 63. 171. 172. 3. That the falsehood both of the Proposition and Assumption is now so manifest as the very propounding of them thus is sufficient to refute them But for this also see further Pag. 5. 11. 12. 13. Now to speak here but of the latter braunch of the Assumption onely let them tell vs iff themselues think theyr Assemblyes and members thereof do in simplicity of heart beleev and practise the good doctrines of theyr Church Nay will they say that the Prelates the chief officers and pillars of theyr Church do so embrace them Not to speak of the many thousands of theyr Church who do not so much as know the doctrines of truth retayned and 〈◊〉 them So far are they from professing and practising them in syncerity And yet are they aswell as the best members of theyr Church partakers of theyr Sacraments Ministers Governours copartners of theyr Worship Assemblyes procedings c. 4. Finally mynd that the Argument and Replyes following speak of the profession and practise of all theyr Assemblyes and members thereof as they stand according to Law Pag. 3.6 But here he speaketh onely of such among them as do in simplicity of heart beleev and embrace theyr good doctrines and therefore neyther of all theyr Assemblyes nor of all the members of them See then here how insufficiently they have reasoned and how deceitfully they have dealt all this while Besides the question being of a visible Church he speaketh onely of such as may belong to the invisible Which is not to the poynt in controversy For the profession and practise according to Law spoken of in the Argument may be knowen and discerned of men the simplicity of the heart here spoken of God onely kooweth Thus with wynding in and out they have lost both the question and themselves too I feare if they returne not in tyme and with simplicity of heart vnto the Lord. The nature and force of theyr corruptions derived from Antichrist the deadly enemy of Iesus Christ is purposely handled in the discourse following in the 1. 2. 3. 6. 7. and 9. Reasons The Apostle saith that even * 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 the forbidding of Meats and Mariage is a departing from the faith Mr Beza speaking particularly of the Church of England and but of fower or five off theyr corruptions viz plurality of benefices licences of Non-residency licences to marry and to eat flesh saith that ‡ Bez. Epist 8 the Antichristian Church hath not
First I alledged all the reformed Churches For who knoweth not but they all hold CoÌ„munioÌ„ with vs as Churches of God yet you dare either deny this or vtterly peruert it You tell vs of your Answers to Maister Cartwright Mr. Hildersam that are vnanswered If they be like to this your answer here verely they doe wisest in yeelding silence to such friuolous wandring wordes Secondly I alleadged your selues to haue acknoledged heretofore That our publique doctrine allowed would did make many of vs true Christians You too shamefully deny it And say you are for witnessing against it imprisoned banished c. Whereto I answer that if for these things you are troubled I know none can pittie you And because you say none of you euer acknowledged it I will therefore repeat your owne words Mr. BARROW in his last answer in writing to Mr Gifford intituled A fevv obseruations to the reader of Mr. Giff. last Reply Sect. 4. saith thus The next calumniations whereby Mr Gifford indeuoreth to bring vs into hatred with the whole Lande is That we condemne all the persons both men and women of England which are not of our minde and pluck them vp as tares wherein me thinkes he doeth vs open wrong if not against his owne conscience yet against our expresse writngs every where c. Have we not commended the faith of the English Martyr and 〈◊〉 thousand notwithstanding the false offices and gâ—â—â—â— corruptions in the worship they exercised not doubting but the mercy of God through their syncere â—aith to Iesus Christ extended and super abounded above all their sinnes seene and vnseene And what now should let that we should not have the same hope where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicity is found So that they neither neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. Aftervvard in the same Section The faithfull servants of Christ denying the whole constitution and government of this Church of England may iustly deny the people whilest they remaine in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church yet hereby not condemne them with any such peremptory sentence as Maister Gifford suggesteth Nota from Christ to cut them of from Gods election or from Christ Mr PENRIE in his confession of faith published in writing a litle before his death saith thus The trueth of doctrine touching the holy Trinitie touching the Natures and Offices of Christe Iustifying faith Sacramentes Eternall life and the rest established by her Maiesties Lawes and professed by her selfe their Honors and such as haue knowledge in the Assemblies of this land I acknowledge from my heart to be such as if I mainteined not the vnitie and held not the communion of the same doctrine with them in these poincts I could not possibly be saved For out of the communion of the true profession which her Maiestie hath established in these and the like truthes there is no hope of saluation lâ—ft But ioyne notwithstonding with the publique worship in the assemblies of this Land I dare not for the former causes I doe moreouer willingly confesse That many both of the Teachers also of the Professors within these Parish assemblees haue so embraced this truth of doctrine established and professed in this Land as the Lord of his infinite goodnes hath graunted them the fauour to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lordes election I professe before men and Angels that I iudge them to be meÌ„bers of that body whereof the sonne of God Christ Iesus is the head Onely herein the Lord be mercifull vnto them as to my self in regard of my sinnes That they are not vnder that outward forme of gouernement that Christ hath left c. And in his examination before Master Fanshaw lately published by your selves in print he confesseth the Churches of England to be the true Churches of Christ And what say you Maister Iohnson Have you not affirmed this thing your self to me and to Maister Philips namely towching your owne selfe when you were of vs That then you doubted not but you were a true regenerate Christian By vertue of what doctrine By extraordinarie reuelation Nay but by our publique doctrine of our Church when you stoode and continued a publique Minister of the same If you beleued so of your selfe and that truely vvhat letteth but you may beleeue the like of many Thousands novve Further vvhere you say my applying of the Martyrs is answered before Let the Reader iudge You shevv here that some of them misliked the Hyerarchie But it maketh stronger against you seeing for all that they themselves refused not to communicate and partake vvith them as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. After vvhere you say though the reformed Churches your selves and the Martyrs had thought otherwise then you now do yet all this is no so und proof against you Yes in deed that novv you hold a Paradoxe those vvitnesses are sufficient for that vvhere vnto may be added the vvhole Churches iudgment and practize vvith all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300. or 1400. yeares Chrysostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom. Austen Ambrose c. They all have thought that vnder the Prelacie and humane ceremonies men may be true Christians Then these witnesses are sufficient that your denyall hereof is a strange vnusuall opinion that is a Paradox Finally to trie vs you propound a many of questions But I leave all this superfluous stuffe to your self to be pondered First let vs cleare this present question and your Reasons hereabout Till then we have no leasure to medle further The Lord of his mercy open your eyes to see your extremitie whereby you do greatly hinder not helpe the truth Not a Firâ—â—â— for victorie but a lover of truth which you would seem to suffer for That you may indeed shew your self as becometh a Christian Pastor not impossible to erre but no lover of error * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not regarding your owne but the prayse of Christ in all things AMEN Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 9. Reason AS if your bare word were proof ynough still you say but never prove that this Reason is a fallacy Yea and all the Reasons before in your schoole-learning are likewise But the best is you are not the greatest Clerk the schooles have knowen Every of the Reasons is proved before to be true direct sound and strong against you And in all your Replyes against them what els have you done but played the Sophister and that notablie Apply therefore to your self what you speake here And of all these things now let the Reader iudge It seemeth verie absurd vnto you that I say you do here graunt vs the cause But what if the absurditie be found in your self Marke then first your owne words before Pag. 156. ‡ We graunt say you so far forth as we hold otherwise then truth so
he vvould proue the Churches of England to be the true Churches of God VVhatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian in state of saluation That is sufficienâ— to make a companie so gathered together to be a true Church But the whole doctrine as it is publikly ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. professed and practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation ††See for the addition of these vvords in Pag. 6. and our publique Assemblies are therein gathered together Therefore it is sufficieÌ„t to make the publique Assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson THe aunswer of this ArgumeÌ„t followeth But first I wil proposid another prouing by better reason that the Church-assemblies of England are in their constitution so far from being true Churches of God as they stand in AntichristiaÌ„ estate and are therfore subiect to wrath The ARGVMENT is this Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath That is sufficient to make a companie so gathered togeather likewise to stand though they professe withall in their constitution many doctrines of truth otherwise profitable to saluation But the Hierarchie Leiturgie and confusion ecclesiasticall as they are publikly ‡ Their Ecclesiasticall constitutioÌ„ Courts Iniunctions practise canon Lavve Books of articles of coÌ„mon prayer of ordering Priestes and consecrating Archbishops c. professed practised by law in England are sufficient to make a †As for exaÌ„ple the Prelates the Priessts c. particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath And the Church-assemblies in England are in ‡ their estate companies so gathered together Therefore are these also sufficient to make the Church-assemblies of England likewise to stand though they professe vvithall in their constitution many doctrines of truth othervvise profitable to saluation This Argument I propound as being more sound then M. Iacobs both for matter and maner Let others iudge Now I come to examine his Where first it is needfull so to set it downe as it was heretofore propounded by himself And that was thus as followeth Chap. 3. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it vvas first propounded and aunswered VVHatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true ChristiaÌ„ in state of saluatioÌ„ That is sufficient to make a company so gathered togeather to be a true Church But the whole doctrine ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. as it is professed and publiquely practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Therefore it is sufficient to make the publique assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer TO omit the Proposition vntill it better appeare by the defence of the Assumption how to take and vnderstand it we wil for the present only shew the weakenes of the AssumptioÌ„ And this also the rather because they seeme wholy to depend vpon it H. Iacob his Reply THe AuÌ„svverer omitteth the PropositioÌ„ for in deed it is most certain But he denieth the Assumption vvhich yet is as certaine also That the doctrine in our booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian Fr. Iohnson his 2. Aunsvver IN the former aunswer I omitted the PropositioÌ„ not because of the certeinty of it as the Replier dreameth but till we might see by his defence of the Assumption how to take it as then I noted Now therefore hauing seen in his reply the * This I vvrot vvhen I had seen Mr. Iacobs first Repâ—e herafter follovving vvhich novv he hath secoÌ„ded vvith another of like sort VVhether it be not so as here I say let the indifferent Reader vpon tryall iudge vnlearned and vnconscionable pretences by which he would seem to defend the Assumption wheÌ„ in deed he doth nothing else but cast a mist before the eyes of the simple I giue him to vnderstand that the whole Argument is lame and faulty in euery part The Proposition is not absolutely true as now by his defence of the Assumption it appeareth he vnderstandeth it The Assumption is not only false as was proued in the * My first auÌ„svver vvas the 3. ExceptioÌ„s and 9. Reasons vvhich here do follovv former auÌ„swer but also lacketh a foot whereon it should goe if it were perfect and entire For whereas in the Proposition mention is made not only of the making of a true Christian but also of a companie so gathered togeather he should in the AssumptioÌ„ if he would haue had it sound and perfect not only haue assumed that the doctrine c. is sufficient to make a true Christian but haue added also that their assemblies be companies so gathered together Which being not done both the Assumption waÌ„teth one of the feet and the Conclusion inferreth more then was in the premisses and so the whole Syllogisme is faultie and disfigured Thus might we without any further aunswer returne this ArgumeÌ„t to the first framers of it to be better fashioned Yet in hope to doe them good by the blessing of God we will more particularly lay open the weakenes of this Replie And first where he saith the Proposition is most certain and yet in his defence of the Assumption declareth that he so taketh it as whatsoeuer amongst them be ioyntly togeather held and ioyned with that which otherwise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notwithstanding they are so to be reputed as if there were no such additions or commixtures we aunswer that in this sence the Proposition neither is nor can be absolutly true For who knoweth not that ‡ Gal. 5.2.4 such things may be ioined with Christ as do abolish from him And again †2 cor 6.14.15.16.17 that Christ Antichrist cannot accord together Either therefore the Proposition is not general but admitteth limitatioÌ„ and theÌ„ is not the ArgumeÌ„t good Or if it be generall without any limitation so as whatsoeuer be added to or commingled with that which otherwise might make a true ChristiaÌ„ or Church yet it hindereth nothing at all then is it not alway true as may appeare by the former exceptions and many mo that might be alledged Next touching the Assumption besides that it is same it is also vntrue as hath ben proued Some balme in deed this man bringeth to cure it but it hath no other effect saue only to manifest so much the more that the soare of their Assemblies cannot be healed In our former aunswer we first tooke 3. Exceptions against theÌ„ comparing together their profession and practise then we alleadged 9. ReasoÌ„s directly concluding the falshood of the Assumption H. Iacob his 2. Reply Before I examine this your aunswer I will desire you and all others to note that all your Ecceptions and Reasons with your defence of them hereafter following doe consist of these
His 1. Reply to the 7. Reason folloing The Papists forbidding of mariage and meats if they had done no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such These and many mo you haue in your first Reply besides an hundred the like in the second not only sounding to that sence but directly and necessarily implying it And whereas you have sometimes the contrary as I noted * His 1. Reply to the 4 Reason follovving els where that doth but so much the more shew your inconstancy and contradiction of your self Shall I therefore now turne vpon you your owne words and say O strange dealing vvithout all shame in the vievv of the vvorld to father on me this foule vntruth c. Yet I am glad M. Iacob the truth prevaileth so much with you nill ye will ye as you are driuen to confesse that this assertion is a foule vntruth and senceles errour For herevpon it followeth first that your Proposition is not generall and therefore your whole Argument faulty and to no purpose at al for the question in hand secondly that of necessity there should be some clause ānexed to your Proposition touching the Antichristian abhominations among you if you would haue your Reason good for the estate of your Churches But you account such addition would be idle and vaine I easily beleeue you are so minded But why I pray you thinke you so Is it because you did not at first mind it or because now you see it would discouer to euerie man the vanitie of your Reason Howsoeuer it must be expressed And if your self either know not how to doe it or be vnwilling I will show it Mark now therfore Hovv Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist But the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly * Book of Articles published Anno 1562 professed and practised by Lavv in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluatiō And the publik Assemblyes of England are in their estate companyes so gathered together Therefore it is also sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist Or thus rather If the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Lavv in England be sufficient to make a particular man standing member of that Church which retaineth the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist yet notvvithstanding to be a true Christian and in state of saluation as tovvching his estate and standing in that Church then is it also sufficient to make a company so gathered together and consequently the Church of England to be a true Church of Christ as towching the estate and constitution thereof But the former say you is true Therefore also the latter But the former say I is false Therefore also the latter Thus M. Iacob should your Argument be framed in right forme of reasoning for the estate of your Church and for the question between vs. Which now being done who is so simple as cannot plainely see the falshood of both the Propositions in the former and of the Assumption in the latter and consequently the vanity of your Reason every way If you still hold otherwise then must we still call vpon you for proof Bare saying will not serue we looke for due proof Mind further that now as your case standeth you are to approve the estate of your Church and the members thereof not only as they retaine the abominatiōs of Antichrist but as they withstand also the contrary truth and way of Christ which hath ben a long time made known and offered vnto them Otherwise he that hath but half an eye may see you defēd not the present estate of the Churches of England as the title of your book pretendeth In that you say wheresoeuer there are any things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient in deed is not sufficient to make a true Christian you are againe mistaken There may be in the constitution of a Church things added destroying faith and yet so much truth be held and taught as to some particular men cōsidered apart from the constitution is sufficient to make them true Christians and in state of saluation the other being not imputed vnto them by the Lord. Thus I doubt not hath * Thus haue I spoken to you Mr Iacob many tymes Yet see hovv you haue novv dealt vvith me contrary to your knovvledg God saued some in the most popish Churches and many mo in yours from time to time Yet notwithstanding this doth not iustifie the estate either of their or of your Church neither doth it warrant any to abide therein But it argueth partly the riches of Gods mercie partlie the greatnes of his power who as at first he brought light out of darknes so in the worst times and euen in the darke kingdome of Antichrist saueth them that are his But of this besides that already spoken there will be occasion to speak more ‡ In the handling of the second Exception and 7. Reason folloing hereafter Your bad dealing about the first rest of the general points aboue named I haue declared before In deed your self may tremble to think thereon as on your Antichristian estate also in that Church You I say M. Iacob who cannot be ignorant of both these things howsoever you haue advisedly if not also vvilfully now written otherwise Mind therefore if you haue not here took heauen and earth to record against your self and whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs proceed to your Replies vpon the Exceptions and Reasons heretofore alledged against your Assumption And let the Reader mind without partialitie as before God which of vs haue the truth and accordingly let him walke in all good conscience before God and men Chap. 4. The first Exception against the Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson FIrst consider the 19. Article of that doctrine and Book which by your self is alleadged for your defence and see by it if your profession and practize be not contrary one to an other Yea see if it be not manifest euen by it that you haue not a true visible Church of Christ The words of the Article are these Artic. 19. The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure vvord of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same These are your owne words and
against all the transgressions thereof Or will it take hold of others and shall you staye free Howsoever your self seem careles what you say or do yet let others mynd their fearfull estate in that Church which retaineth such a multitude of Antichristian corruptions here graunted by your self to be against the Second commaundement the breach whereof God hath threatned to punish most severely And let it be observed that you who have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches and Ministery yet cannot deny that to be your estate Behold then to what issue your Defence is come in the end And now that you see hovv much I have made of this point at your request forget not to thank me for it in your next Reply The Scripture here alledged you would turne away from your selves by saying it is of Saul a presumptuous offender 1 Sam. 15.23 But that Scripture is not for Saul onely but for “ 1 Cor. 10.11 Rom. 15.4 others likewise And how will you shew that Saul was a more presumptuous and wilfull offender then your self and your Church Nay how will you shew that his sinne was meerly of presumption and wilfulnes The Scripture mentioneth two other causeâ— alledged by himself ‡ 1 Sam. 15.15 an intent to sacrifice to the Lord and †vers 24. feare of the people 〈◊〉 and your Church can hardly yeeld like reasons for your selvâ—s â—et if you could they 〈◊〉 not sâ—â—nd before God as this Scripture witnesseth Your clause of making your whole Churches so importeth that you take the case of some the 〈◊〉 not of all among you to be as Sauls was Then take you heed Mr. Iacob and the rest of like iudgement and practise as you â—re What I think of your whole Churches as towching their constitution I have often shewed before 3. For the third I meane it of the Antichristian abominations remayning among you and the like Neither could you be ignorant hereof seing I had a litle ♣ Pag. 63.64.65 before reckned vp so many of them in particular But you would not seem to know it because you can not prove the contrarie against it For proof of my assertion I alledg these Scriptures Exod. 20. 〈◊〉 compared with 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 Col. 2.8 Revel 1â— â—0 10.11 with ver 4. ver 12. Revel 17 1-6 with Hos 2.2 Prou. 6.27 28.32 7.22.23.27 9 13-18 2 Thes 23-12 2 Ioh. vers 9.10.11 Your inwrapping of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I have vnfolded before Pag. 8.41 Of all the reasons and differences which I named concerning you and them you picke out but one or two and the rest you passe by Now of them which you except against the first is that they suffred to death for the truth they saw Which my words you have altered thus that they for seeke all the corruptions they saw But beside the alteration your answer also is to be noted I alledged hat the Martyrs suffred to death for the truth they saw you answer this belongeth to many thousands in England no lesse then to them Can you now iustifie either your dealing or your answer Or can you shew seme hundreds of your Church in stead of your manie thousands For myne owne part if you had thousands of such I wish they were many millions But I feare that the contrarie of your speach is to true viz that there are many thousands in England so far from suffring death for the truth they see like those Martyrs as they will not 〈◊〉 imprisoÌ„ment bannishement losse of goods or the like for that truth which they do not onely see but which themselues have heretofore professed preached sued for to the Parliament c. So far are they from for â—alâ—ing all the corruption they see that I may vse your owne words Yea who can think otherwise by their estate and practise but if a Queâ—â— Mary came againe which God for did the 〈◊〉 of the Land would 〈◊〉 as the Prince beleveth and be ready to receive againe the points of Poperie now reiected as it was heretofore after King Edwards decease Marke that I speake of the face of the Land generally not of ever it particular person therein Of divers among you I have better hope as I have shewed before pag. 7. Yet for your generall state as the questioÌ„ is who can say but you are readie to receive any religion or any thing in religion to go forward or backward even as pleaseth the Prince and best fitteth your turne for avoiding of trouble and enioying your ease wealth safety c. And where then be the many thousaÌ„ds you speak of Or may wee think this is to forsake corruption and hold forth the truth as the Martyrs did Nay Mr. Iacob it is far from it And this you may note as a great difference between your estate and the Martyrs and ioyne it to the other mentioned before pag. 40.41 Now where you say there are infinite of your Church that know not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignorant of redemption by Christ c. How shew you this to be true Although if it be it is no great commendation to your Church considering what meanes of further knowledg God hath vouchsafed since that tyme. But of this point I will not stand so much I aunswer that to make your comparison hold you must compare with those learned men the learned among you and with the vnlearned then the vnlearned of yours now So shall your self and others see how vntrue your speach is Although I doubt not but even many of the vnlearned among you who have knowledge of redemption by Christ know also more of the corruptions aforesaid then those learned men did Towching that you speak of my self I have aunswered before Pag. 41. The second thing you except against concerning the Martyrs is that I said the things now controverted were not then so called in question and coÌ„vinced against them by the Scriptures as now they haue ben against you So I sayd Now speak you were they or not If they were shew it If not yeeld it But you would have me to meane this towching some few among you and not of all If it were but so yet then the thing is done more synce then in those daies But in deed the calling in question and conviction of these things hath not ben onely to some few as you would perswade The Admonitions have ben to the whole Parliament which are as the body of the whole Land and gathered from all the quarters thereof Your preaching likewise against those corruptions hath gone throughout the whole Realme So have your books written and printed against them Finally our testimony by word writing imprisomnent exile death is knowen throughout the Land Why then would you have me speak this of some few that here and there might be picked out And whereas you cannot deny but the case of some among
whither you refer vs for it though there the Reader shall finde you aunswer not the severall Scriptures here alledged for proof of it In the meane time let this be noted that here againe you graunt your Church corruptions are against the Second commaundement Therefore may none that feare God and will be assured to escape his wrath bow downe vnto them Exod. 20.5.6 Deut. 5.9.10 and 6.10.11 and 28.15.16 c. Psal 106.29 Next where I speak of your breach of the second coÌ„maundement as being spirituall whoredome you except against it as if I mismatched things otherwise then they are in deed But how can that be seing the Scriptures ‡ Pag. 68. there alledged prove that which I said Or will you say your case is not spirituall whoredome which God in that commaundement hath straitlie forbidden and severelie threatned to punish This then being so it is your self Mr Iacob that mismatch things otherwise then in deed they are For your case is not as you would pretend by your similitude like a wanton word a light gesture or contenaunce or an immodest thought of a woman But I will tell you what it is like Even as when a woman vnfaithfull to her husband is found to commit filthynes with other men after whom she goeth a whoring Now such a one whatsoever smooth speach countenance or excuse she pretend yet is in deed an whore and for this cause to be divorced That your case is such your going a whoring after Antichrist whose ordinances Hierarchie worship confusion c. are retained among you testifies to your faces Fitly therefore do we applie the Scriptures against you and your selves it is that sinne against the Third commaundement in misapplying of them as I shewed sufficientlie in my former answer against which you can say nothing To the proof of the Assumption you yeeld now at length Neither can I otherwise thinke of your aunswer seing I have proved my speach to be proper and the Scriptures fitly alledged and you refuse to iustify your owne Articles and estate Yet least you should againe cavill and delude the Reader I aske you Have I not concluded the question in a Syllogisme Why then do you not aunswer directlie to some part of it Have I not proved the Proposition by Scripture and the Assumption by your owne Writings and practise The Conclusion then must needs be true vnles one of the Propositions could be disproved which you are so far from as you never go about to do it The marginall note then is no scoffe but a iust reproof of your ignorance which in deed deserveth much more But I spare you and leave it to others to iudge whether you do any thing els in all you say but winde in and out to hide the truth and blinde the Reader if you could The Scriptures which I alledged for proof of the Proposition you handle as if I had brought them for proof of the Assumption Who is it now think you that is in a dreame Agayne your owne Books profession and practise by which I proved the Assumption you towch not at all Nay you say plainely it is no part of your mynd to iustify them Whether it be for that you see they can not possibly be iustifyed or because you want skill in your self or charity towards your Church for the doing of it let others inquire Sure I am that thus you give the cause For this belongs directly vnto it as all may see that have any vnderstanding and your self I suppose will not deny when you have called your wits a litle better togeather Chap. 8. The second Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THat which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine that cannot make either true Christians or true Churches But the doctrine publikely professed and practized by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God in vaine Therefore c. Of the trueth of the Proposition none can doubt And the Assumption is thus proved That which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God by the precepts of Man that appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine This Christ affirmeth out of Esay the Prophet Mat. 15.9 with Esay 29.13 But the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in EnglaÌ„d appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God by the precepts of man This appeareth by the 35. and 36. Articles of the book alledged and by their other books of Articles Canons Iniunctions Common prayer their Holy dayes Fasting dayes Censures Hierarchy c. All which are the precepts of men and authorised by Law in England Therefore the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine And consequently cannot make a particuler man a true Christian nor the assemblies so gathered together true Churches H. IACOB his 1. Replie to the 2. Reason THis your Second Reason is This booke and others appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine Ergo c. 1. This also hath answere in the third Exception Pag 57. 2. Also note I pray you this Scripture Mat. 15. is verified of such as were then of the true visible ♣ Marke his open contrariety with hiÌ„self granting this in Reas 6 Church with vvhom Christ and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometimes ioyne and communicate This therefore maketh for vs and against you most notably FR. Io. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Reason THe Reason is as you see it propounded before Nâ—w what propositioÌ„ do you deny Not any at all What defence then bring you of your book of Common prayer and the particulars therein of your books of Articles and Iniunctions of your Prelacy and other Ministery receyved froÌ„ then according to your popish Pontificall of your Canons and Excommunications c. Surely none neyther What then do you answer Not a word but that you refer vs to your answer before in the last Exception whither also we refer the Reader with this note that there he shall finde nothing either for answer of any proposition of this argument or for defence of your worship Prelacy Ministery and Church gouernement called into question Is not this then a worthie and Clerck like answer Have you not may we thinke good proof for your present estate and Church-constitution which thus leave it altogeather without defence even when it most needeth and as it were beggeth your help and succor if you could affoard it any Yet now having no aunswer to any part of the Argument you bid vs note that this Scripture Mat. 15. here alledged is verifyed of such as were then of the true visible Church with whom Christ himself and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometyme ioine and communicate This therefore you say maketh for you and against vs most notably 1 But first tell vs if ‡ As that of Lev. 10.1.2.3 Num. 16 1.
And for the other that Christ notwithstanding said to some of the Iewes Maâ— 15.9 they vvorshipped God in vaine teaching doctrines mens precepts Mat. 15.9 How say you Mr Iacob is the Scripture therefore contrarie to it self Or were Christs speaches contrarie the one to the other Pag. 83. 2 Besides are you so dull as you can not conceive no not when it is told you that the sinnes and corruptioÌ„s of the meÌ„bers of a true Church may fitlie be alledged against whole false Churches and yet neither condemne the true constitution of that Church wherein the one stand nor justifie the false constitution of the other 3 Yea know you not that a Church in true constitution jointlie considered may be said to be true vvorshippers of God c. and yet some yea manie of that Church be said also through their owne default in other respect to vvorship God in vaine or to be tainted with Idolatry or the like And yet no contradiction be implyed in so saying Seing you cannot vnderstand it in Christs words concerning the Ievves see if you can perceive it in Pauls to the Corinthians When he speaketh to the whole Church jointlie considered he commendeth them for keping his ordinaÌ„ces and acknowledgeth they call on the Name of the Lord Iesus 1 Cor. 1.2 11.2 But when he speaketh in respect of some that sate and eat of the sacrifices in the Idol-temples he biddeth them fly from Idolatry and telleth them they cannot be partakers of the Lords table and of the table of Divels 1 Cor. 10.14.21 8.10 Yet is he not contrarie to himself for all this Mynd withall what I aunswerd before concerning this point in the Second reason Pag 90. And so againe I leave it to the Reader to judge whether the contrariety you speak of be not in deed an harmony and that therefore you abuse both the Scripture and vs. Chap. 13. The seventh Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson If the Spirit of God account them to be departers from the faith and consequentlie no true Christians who though they hold other truthes of the Gospell yet forbid to marry and commaund to absteine from meats vvhich God hath created to be received vvith thankesgiving Then such account must needs be made of the estate of the Church of England which not onelie both these things but withall forbiddeth the true Ministerie and worship of God and commaundeth a false Whose Ministers and people also do all of them partake therein For proof whereof besides their practise of these and persecution of the truth see their owne Canons Articles Statutes Iniunctions c. But the former is true 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 7. Reason â—â— 1â— THis yout seaventh Reason is They are departed from the faith that forbid to marry and commaund to abstayne from lawfull meates Also this is worse then that viz. to forbid the true Ministery and to commaunde a false which we in England doe Ergo we are departers from the faith I deny this AntecedeÌ„t that is your AssumptioÌ„ with a distinctioÌ„ The Papists †See â—hâ—â—â— Testam in Mat. 15.18 Fr. Io. See D. Fulkeâ— answer therevnto forbidding of mariage meals if they had don no worse doth not make them departers froÌ„ the saith that is not “ or not fuÌ„damentally not simply vvhich vvordâ—s I think â—itter to bee here vsed as in my next Reply is further declard totally No more could their Hyerarchie and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such The Papistes fall from Christ ‡ That is fundameÌ„tally simply see in the 2. Reply follovving wholy in other poincts namely 1. The Papall supremacy 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by workes Which blessed bee God wee are farre from Therfore the Apostle in saying They departed from the faith meaneth in * vid. in abstayning froÌ„ Mariage and meetes these poincts they erred or departed from the faith but not absolutly and wholy 2. Furthermore touching your Proposition if you vnderstand Paul of Martion the Heretike and Tatianus who did absolutly condemne Mariage and certen meats they even therein might vvholy fall froÌ„ the faith I meane somwhat like to Balaam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites “ Pag. 105.112 lately spoken of namely for having their consciences convicted and seared with a whot iron And thus are they in no comparison with vs of EnglaÌ„d nor with the Papistes neither if they had erred in nothing else Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 7. Reason HEre being not able with any colour to deny the consequent of the Proposition neither to justify your present Ministery worship Canons Articles IniunctioÌ„s c. which you must do Mr Iacob and still we call for it if you will justify your present estate yet being desperate sure for els you would never have done it you feare not to gainsay the Assumption that is the very words and testimony of the Scripture it self 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 The Apostle saith that they which forbidd Mariage and Meats are departed from the faith You say No. Now whether I pray you shall we beleev You or the Apostle But what colour have you for your deniall This forsooth That they which doe so do not depart from the faith totally and that the Apostles meaning is that in these poincts they depart from the faith but not absolutly and wholy So by your conceit none may be accounted departers from the faith that depart onelie in some poincts but they which doe it totally from all And thus may no heretikes or Antichrists that euer haue bene or shal be in the world be iudged departers froÌ„ the faith because they depart from it but in some poincts and not absolutly from all Thus have you justified at once the Arians Nestorians Sabellians Papists Familistes Anabaptistes and whom not because they depart but in some not wholy from all poincts of faith Is it not great pitie that Antichrist hath so long wanted such a stout Champion as can thus in one word justify his forbidding of meates and mariage yea and his most detestable Hierarchie and superstitions withall By your learning Mr Iacob all the Martyrs and writers heretofore which by evideÌ„ce of this Scripture convicted the Synagoges of Antichrist to have departed from the faith and therefore separated from them were vtterly deceived Yea and the Apostles themselves were wholy mistaken when they call Antichrists Church and Religion ♣ 2 Thes 2.7 a mysterie of iniquitie which ‡ 1 Tim. 4.2 speaketh lies through hypocrisy * 2 Pet. â— 1 prively bringing in daÌ„nable heresies and ‡ hauing a shew of godlines but denying the power thereof And Iohns eyes it seemeth were not matches 2 Tim. 3.4 when he saw in the whores forehead that is in Antichrists Church and Religion a name written A mystery great Babylon the mother of vvhoredomes and
but that still the reason deduced from thence is of force against you now you would have vs passe by you and not to apply it vnto you or your mother Church of Rome but to vnderstand it of Martion and Tatianus of whom you say that they absolutely condemning mariage and certen meats might indeed even therein vvholy fall from the faith somevvhat like to Balaam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for having their consciences conuicted and seared vvith an hote iron And thus say you are they in no comparison vvith you of Englād But first if your former answer were of anie weight it might be asked why the followers of Martion and Tatianus might not likewise have defended them thus and said that their departure from the faith vvas but in some poincts not vvholy from all Secondly if this scripture was verifyed as you graunt in Martiō and Tatianus for their condemning of mariage and meats then we must needs think it verified also in the Romishe vvhore and her apostate childrē which are falne into the very same sinnes that are heer mentioned The Apostle nameth Martion and Tatianus no more then he doeth the whorish Babylon and the children of her fornication but comprehendeth heer all such who so ever they be as shall fall into this Apostasie And further if the wordes of this scripture be duly weighed and either other scriptures or the estate of the Romish harlot and her children cōpared therewith it will be found as lively to describe these as either Martion or any other that ever were in the world 1. First when the Apostle sayth that this shal be in the latter tymes who seeth not that it doeth most directlie point at the Romish Whore Though we doubt not but Martiō and Tatianus who lived 1400. yeares since or thereabout may also be cōprehended therein 2. Secondlie when it is said they shall departe from the faith thereby signifying that once they held the faith how playne is this of the Romish harlot which in the †Rom. 1.7 Apostles time was the spouse of God and since is falne into Apostasy and become the Mother of vvhoredomes and abominations of the earth 2. Thes 2.3 and Rev. 17.1.2.3.4.5 3. Thirdlie when it is said they shall give heed to spirits of errour and doctrines of Divels how fitly agreeth this to the Romish Babylon which as the scripture els where testifies is become the habitation of Divels hold of all soule spirits Rev. 18.2 4. Fourthlie when it is said they shall speake lyes through hypocrisy not to reckon vp the infinite particulars that might be alleadged for proof hereof how fitlie doth this describe the Religion and practise of the man of sinne the Romish Antichrist which the Scripture also calleth “ a mystery of iniquity as pretending to be with and for Christ and to draw men vnto him when indeed it is opposed against and exalted above the Lord Iesus and all his holy ordinances 2 Thes 2.4.7 5. Fiftlie when it is said they shall have their consciences seared vvith an hote iron how true is this found vpon the throne of the Beast and his Kingdome concerning which the scripture also testifieth †that vvhen the vials of Gods vvrath shal be povvred out vpon them and they conuinced of their jmpieties and abominations they shal be so farre from acknowledging and forsaking them as they shall gnavv their tongues for sorrovv and rather thē they will forsake their wickednes shall fight against God and his truth ‡ Let their raylings slāders Edicts Articles iniunctions finally their cōtinuall oppositiōs madnes against the truth people of God be witnesses of all this blaspheming the God of heaven for their paines for their sores and not repenting of their vvorkes Rev. 16.10.11 Lo here a seared cōscience in the Beastes kingdome 6. Finallie when the Spirit of God giveth here two particular instances of this apostasy 1. The forbidding of mariage 2. And the commaunding to absteine from meats vvhich God hath created to be received vvith thankesgiuing How directlie doeth he in both these as it were with the finger point at the Romish Babylon and her daughters In the one that is the forbidding of Mariage when as the Romish Babylon forbiddeth it to Priests Friers Nunnes and such like and the English her daughter to fellowes of Colleges and prētises and both these Churches to all men and women in Lent Advent Rogation vveek c. In the other that is the forbidding of meats when they forbid the eating of flesh on Fridayes Saturdayes Emberdayes Lent Saints eves c. Thus you see this Scripture which you would turne over to Martion and Tatianus doth most fitlie agree vnto and most plainlie describe the Romish Apostasy whether we apply it therevnto or compare this and other scriptures togeather speaking of the same Apostasy and defection By this also may appeare that as you say of Martion and Tatianus that they might be said wholy to fall from the faith somwhat like to Balaam Iudas those apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for having their cōsciences conuicted and seared with an hote iron So may be said also of the Romish Babylon and her daughters Touching which point see moreover what is said before in the sixt Reason Neyther will your marginall additions nor your new clauses in the Reply it self help eyther you or the Papists any whit They are all as foolish and as contradictorie to the Apostles expresse words as be those which you vsed before So the same answer may serve them all still And whereas in the margent you refer vs to your next Reply follovving thither also do I refer you for aunswer of whatsoever you can there alledge In the meane tyme let the Reader mynd here that both all your marginall notes and such clauses also in this Reply of yours as are now included in a parenthesis be newly added in your printed book and were not before in your written copy which I aunswered Your self belike do now see the folly and insufficiency of your former pretended distinctions and excuses This by the way I thought now to adde by reason of these your new additiōs Now if seeing the evidence of this Scripture so full and plaine against your selves you would therefore except 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 that in deed in the Romish Church it is so but not in yours of England First by this meanes you should overthrow your owne answer here who have denied it of the popish forbidding of meats and mariage and would turne it over from them to Martion and Tatianus Yea and feare not now againe to give the holy Ghost the lye when you pretend that the very Papists themselves if they erred in nothing els have not their consciences convicted nor seared with an hote iron which yet the Apostle affirmeth expressely of all such 1 Tim. 4.2.3 Secōdlie this would not hinder but that the consequent of the Proposition and the Assumption are good
am I from being of your mynd who think the truth wholy destroied in all such as have served Idols or held any other fundamentall errors Consider also the Aethiopian Churches which retaine many of Moses ceremonyes and of the grosse points of Popery And the Greek Churches erring greatlie of old about Freewill and synce that tyme about the Person and proceeding of the holy Ghost besides other very great errors among them Not to speak of the Lutherans holding with other errors that of Consubstantiation which by necessarie consequence overthroweth Christs humane nature and therefore is fundamentall in your owne account Will you now say that none of these can have a lively saving faith I dare not be of your mynd I hope and am perswaded otherwise Nay even for the Papists and others of whom you speak I dare not with you say peremptorilie of them all from the first arising of their errors they are vtterly abolished from Christ My reason I shewed before out of the Papists owne doctrine To which I refer you with this note Pag. 47. that as on the one hand I acknowledge * Exo. 33.19 Rom. 9.15 God sheweth mercy to whom he will so on the other hand I am perswaded neither can I see otherwise by the word of God but whosoever liveth and dyeth a Papist and member of that Church of Antichrist in the knowledge profession and maintenance of that Religion in the parts thereof can not of vs be esteemed to live and dy in the state of salvation And this I speak as of all such generallie so speciallie of them which have lived synce the height and clearer manifestation of that apostasy 2 Thes 2 3-12 Rev. 13.8.11 17. 18. 19. chap. Such also take I to be the case of the Anabaptists Arrians and the like departing from true Churches and being once coÌ„victed Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.25.38 1 Ioh. 2.19 Iud. ver 19. This being noted I could now further alledge against your peremptory coÌ„demnation of all such as have held any fundamentall errors that even your selves yea the chiefest pillars of your Church are of a contrary judgement herein And for proof I could cite D. Whitgift now your great Archb. in his ‡ last book against Mr Cartvvright pag. 83. But because where sound judgement is needfull in question of Religion his testimony is but of small valew I will not stand vpon it but refer you rather to Mr Iewell a Prelate also yet a man otherwise worthy to be reverented both for his suffrings in Q. Maryes dayes and for his gifts and labours employed in defence of sundry points of the truth against the Papists This Mr Iewell alledging the examples of Papias Apollinarius Victorinus Tertullianus Iewels defeÌ„ce of the Apology Pag. 337. 338. Lactantius and others in former tymes confesseth that both they defended the heresy of the Chiliastae which said that Christ after the generall iudgement should dwell here a thousand yeares together vpoÌ„ the earth and yet notwithstanding were godly and worthy members of the Church of God So also he thought of Irenaeus though he held besides the former heresy this also Ibid. that Man at the beginning when he was first created was vnperfect And of Hilary who affirmed both that ‡ Ibid. pag. 353. Christ received not flesh of the blessed Virgin and that the flesh of Christ was impassible and could feel no grief Also of the Picardes concerning whom when Harding the Papist objected †Iewels Rep. to Harding Pag. 119. that sometyme they pulled out their eye and cast it froÌ„ them he aunswereth it was an error of simplicity if they did it much like the error of Origen and others who ghelded themselves for the Kindome of heaven Which two last things of the Picards and Origen it may be you include in your second sort of fundamentall errors and the other before in your first and so account them all without saving faith and vtterly abolished from Christ Yet you see the chief governors of your Church are otherwise minded Yea and your Church it self for Mr Iewels books were published with consent and speciall priuiledge thereof Note this well 2 Some againe who erre not in any fâ—ndamentall point as you distinguish yet no doubt shall perish and be condemned As for not relieving the poore and people of God for not yeelding obedience to Christ but fearing of man more then God for want of sanctification for hypocrisy contention wicked life c. Mat. 25 41-46 Ioh. 3.36 Mat. 23. chap. Rom. 2.8 1 Thes 4 3-6 Ephes 5 3-6 Gal. 5.19.20.21 Neither can you be ignorant but that “ Deut. 27.26 Rom. 6.23 Ezec. 18.10.11 Iam. 2.10 curse and death by the Law of God is threatned to all sinne even to the least Yea and that the very infants through originall sinne alone are subiect herevnto Rom. 5.14 1 Cor. 7.14 For your defence then it is not sufficient though it were graunted that you hold the Foundation and erre not in any fundamentall point Your persisting in false worship and disobeying the ordinance of Christ howsoever you consider it sufficeth to make your estate vnlawfull and subiect to condemnation God imputing it vnto you Thus at once all your building and defence of your Church falleth to the ground But yet that you deceive not your self nor your Reader in this point anie more mynd if your Church do not also hold and mainteine sundry Fundamentall errors against the true faith of Christ For example Fundamentall errors in the Churche of England 1. Your self say before * pag. 28. 35. that your Church holdeth all outward gouernement and ceremonyes to be vnwritten and vncertayne but at the arbitrary appointment of the Church and Magistrate c. That this is a fundamentall error appeareth thus 1. It doth wholie take away and annihilate the Second commaundement 2. It maketh Christ the Sonne inferior to Moses the servant 3. It vpholdeth these and the like fundamentall errors viz That it is not written nor certaine but at the Churches and Magistrates pleasure Whether the Pope be to be head of the Church or Christ onelie Whether now we may retayne the Priesthood of Levi the Passeover Circuncision c. For these concerne the outward gouernement and ceremonies of the Church 2. Your Church holdeth that Christ in his soule descended into Hell Which I haue shewed †before to be your Churches opinion Pag. 116. And who knoweth not that Whitgift P. of Canterbury Bilson P. of Winchester Chaderton P. of Lincolne with other the pillers of your Church do thus hold and mainteine And that it is Fundamentall your self I suppose will not denie See but your owne book against D. Bilson about this question Pag. 92. 127. 133. 148. 156. 162. 165. 174. 3. Your Churches Ministery worship confusion and governement are such as they profane and disanull Christs office of Mediation that is of his Prophecy Priesthood and Kingdome That this is Fundamentall against
where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicitie is found So as they neyther neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. We also aske and say the same But now if you say this is your case both we and your owne works deny it For proof whereof see the differences between you and the Martyrs before specifyed Pag. 40. 41. At Thomas a Waterings by London 1593. May 29 Mr Penry whom you ♣ martyred also the same yeare his speach followeth In which likewise note fower things not one of them for you as towching the question in hand 1. The true doctrines established by Law and professed by her Maiesty their Honours and such as have knowledge in your assemblies he acknowledgeth to be such as if he did not mainteyne and hold them likewise he could not possibly be saved We also are like mynded And to put you out of all doubt we tell you further that if we did not hold and mainteine the true doctrines professed in the Church of Rome towching the onely true God the holy Trinity the Mediator Christ the Resurrection Life eternall c. we could not possibly look to be saved Yet do we not therefore approve their Assemblies to be true Churches or the members thereof true Christians in their estate 2. He separated from your Church as remaining in Antichristian cōstitution and professeth here that he durst not ioine with the publik worship of your Assemblies The causes thereof he mentioneth in the same confession which you conceale Of which see further in his aunswer to Mr Fanshaw hereafter following 3. He confesseth that manie of the Teachers and professors in your assemblies have so embraced the truth of doctrine established and professed in the Land as the Lord hath given them to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lords election he iudged them members of that body whereof Christ is the head and prayed God herein to be mercifull to them as to himself in regard of all his sinnes that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in the Church Now marke here 1. that this is no other thing then as we alway did and still do professe likewise Of which see before Pag. 7. 41. 2. That he speaketh but of some not of all the members of your Church Whereas your Assumption and Conclusion are of your whole publik Assemblies and so of every member of your Church as towching their outward stāding therein 3. That the perswasion he had of such among you was as himself noteth in regard of the Lords election not of their estate in your Churches constitution For towching this which is the question between vs here he prayed God to be mercifull to them as to him self in respect of all his sinnes Now I suppose you will not denie but his sinnes as also the sinnes of all Gods people deserve in their owne nature the curse of God if they were not forgiven in Christ So that by praying thus he acknowledged the estate of all even of the best among you to be such as for this verie cause you are everie one subiect to Gods wrath because you are not vnder that outward forme of Governement which Christ hath left in the Church Consider withall that even for Papists we may pray thus that the Lord would be mercifull to them in this that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in his Church and yet not hereby iustify them to be a true Church in their estate but rather the quite contrarie For Christ his Church wheresoever and among whomsoever it be is vnder Christ his governement not vnder Antichrists Neither have anie people promise of salvation in such estate 4. By all this it appeareth that he spake of them as iudging them to be members of the invisible and Catholick Church which conteyneth all Gods elect not onelie among you but among the Lutherans Anabaptists Papists and all other people whatsoever Now what is this to the poinct of the question controverted which is not of men as they belong to the Catholick invisible Church but as they stand members of some particular visible Assemblies in this or that constitution 4. His speach in examination before Mr Fanshaw why do you not set it downe in his owne words as you did the other before Belike you see your self it is against you howsoever you would pretend otherwise That all may know it thus it was Mr Fanshaw asked him this questiō Do the Martyrs teach you that there is no Church in England Mr Penry answered If you meane by a Church as the most do that publik professiō wherby men do professe salvation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Iesus Christ I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this Land For I know the doctrine of the holy Trinity the natures and offices of the Lord Iesus free iustification by him both the Sacraments c. published by her Maiestyes authority and commaunded by her Lawes to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truths without the knowledge and profession whereof no salvation is to be had These are his words By which you may see he saith no other thing here then what he spake in his Confession before obiected So as the answer given for it may serve for this also Or if that please you not you may mynd it thus If he had ben demaunded by Mr Fanshaw whether there were no Church of Christ in Rome and had answered thus If you meane by a Church that publick profession whereby men do professe Christ Iesus by nature to be truly both God and man that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his blood as a full and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes c. as the Papists do publikly professe Rhem. Annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5 then am I free from denying any Church of Christ to be in Rome If I say to this question he had thus aunswered would you have concluded vpon his words that he acknowledged the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ or the members thereof to be true Christians in their constitution Or do you see for the Church of Rome but not for your owne that such conclusion can not be pressed out of his words But yet further for the more clearing of this matter let vs marke what Mr Fanshaw next asked and he aunswered towching the estate of your Church and his separation from it Vpon his former aunswer Mr Fanshaw said thus vnto him Seing you acknowledge that her Maiesty hath established the truth in so many waighty points seing she hath commaunded the true Sacraments to be administred what mislike you in our Church and why will you not be partaker of these truths and Sacraments with vs Mr Penry answered I mislike 1. the false
them be yet remayning in your worship Hierarchy confusion Canons Licences Dispensations Rev. 14.9.10.11 Exod. 20.4.5 Excommunications c. with ♣ which no man may have spirituall communion vnder payne of eternall wrath that if it be the will of God her Highnes may be his instrument to suppresse and abolish these also and to establish the whole truth of God according to his word And further that she may take to her owne Civill vses the Lordships and possessions of the Prelates and other Clergy as God hath foretold and appointed should be done with them Rev. 17.16 19.17.18 And as King Henry the eight her Maiestyes Father of famous memory did with the Abbats Monks Fryers Nunnes and with their possessions and revennewes Which happy worke by what Princes soever it be done as certaynly will come to passe for the Lord of hostes hath spoken it it will greatlie redound to the glory of God the honour of themselves the free passage of the Gospell the peace of the Church and benefit of the whole Cōmon wealth The Lord therefore hasten and accōplish it Yea true and strong is the Lord who hath spoken and will performe it Rev. 17. 18. 19. chap. This is our mynd which you desier to know concerning reformatiō commaunded and compelled by the Magistrate Where note withall that it is the work of God onelie to adde to his Church such as he will save And therefore that it is not in the power of Princes or anie Man whatsoever to perswade the conscience and make members of the Church but that this must be left to God alone who onelie can do it Act. 2.47 11.21 Gen. 9.27 1 Cor. 12.13 14.24.25 Zach. 8.23 Ier. 32.38.39.40 Princes may and ought within their Dominions to abolish all false worship and all false Ministeryes whatsoever and to establish the true worship and Ministery appointed by God in his word commaunding and compelling their subiects to come vnto and practise no other but this Yet must they leave it vnto God to perswade the conscience and to adde to his Church from tyme to tyme such as shal be saved But with you in these things you know it is quite contrary Thus then neyther the examples of the aforesayd Kings of Iudah are in your case fitlie alledged neyther is it of anie waight if all your people and Assemblies in the Land willinglie openly advisedly submitted to whatsoever was proclaymed at the beginning of her Highnes reygne Vnles you could prove that Religion worship Ministery c. then proclaymed and still vsed to be by God prescribed in his word Which still you take for graunted when it is the very thing which we denie and you should proue if possibly you could And what if here I should put you in mynd how you might more fitlie alledge for your case the keeping of the Statutes of Omry and the like Micah 6.16 But I will leave this for your next Reply And then also tell vs what truth it is you speak of that was proclaymed at the beginning of her Maiestyes raygne whereof the people had such aduizement notice as you pretend from November 17. to Midsomer following For the book of Articles * heretofore so much pressed by your self Pag. 3. c was so far frō being proclaymed then as it was not agreed vpon till the yeare 1562. Which was at least fower or five yeares after the tyme you speak of here Now to proceed you tell vs that no open professed Papists Atheists nor other Hereticks were then receyved into your communion c. But how can we beleev you when D. Whitgift your Archprelate of Canterbury a man of as great reckning and of more experience in your Church then Mr Iacob tels vs the cleane contrary yea and prints it too even then when he writeth in defence of your present estate viz †Whitg book Pag. 176. 178 639. 643. that now the Church is full of Papists Atheists Drunkerds whoremongers c. Even the Prelates themselves I perceive do in some things deale more syncerelie then you Mr Iacob and are nothing so shameles Yet I know that some others of your coat which seek reformation deale herein as plainelie as the Prelates and far more faithfullie then you For example they confesse and publish that you have ‡ Sermon on Rom. 12. swarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erroneous and hereticall Sectaryes the Family of love and such like Another spareth not to avouch more particularly ♣ State of the Church of England between Diot Tert. c. that some Doctors of the Arches be the same men they were in Queen Maryes tyme. Others also speaking of your Ecclesiasticall courts write thus ‡ Ad◠to the Parliament God deliver all Christians out of this Antichristian tyranny where the Iudges Advocates and Proctors for the most part are Papists c. Thus your owne men of all sorts beare witnes against you But to let their testimony alone who knoweth not that the whole Land being polluted with most Popish and wicked Idolatry in Q. Maryes dayes they were all straightway after without repentance or the word preached going before received into the body of your Church and constreyned to become members thereof Who with their seed vnto this day do so remayne and are commonlie called the Church of England Neither will that clause of open professed be anie starting whole for you as it may be you dreame All know well ynough it is no matter how open and professed they be so as they will be conformable to come to Church once a moneth and heare your Divine service book Did Mr W. Smith your great acquaintance never tell you Mr Wroth Iustice. how ‡ one of the Cōmissioners themselves when he was called before them said vnto him Come to Church and be a Divell if thou wilt That which you say of ignorant men received in a generall reformation if you meane of some having far lesse knowledge then others being also vnable eyther well to expresse their owne mynd or to defend the truth against an adversary I deny it not Otherwise know that all who are received members of the Church being of yeares are to be such as in their measure lesse or more have learned Christ and do willinglie submit to his Gospell having heard and knowen the grace of God therein Ephes 4.7.20.21 2 Cor. 9.13 Col. 1.5.6 Act. 2.41 17.3.4 Esa 44.5 Zac. 8.20.21.22.23 And so questionles it was in the time of Hezechiah c. For which see these Scriptures 2 Chron. 29.31 30.2.3.4.11.12.13 2 King 23.2.3 2 Chron. 15.15 Besides that the Iewes did long before Hezekiahs time vpō knowledge enter covenant with the Lord to have him to be their God and they to be his people Exod. 19.7.8 Deut. 29.10.11.12.13 For the notorious dissolute and wicked you plead that some were reclaymed all vndertook another professiō and a new appearāce of Christianity c. Which how false
and Ministery it is no vnmeet thing that you vse the weapons of Antichrist Which are chiefly two falsehood and violence Of the former whereof your book is full from end to end speaking lyes through hypocrisy And with the latter your Church which you would defend aboundeth as your violent courses against the truth will alway testify to your face howsoever you shame not to plead evē for this also For which see before Pag. 112.133.134 If you write agayne be better advised Rev. 14. 18. chap. Psal 84. Ier. 50. and 51. Chap. Or rather learne to lay your hand on your mouth and plead the cyuse of Antichrist no more But follow the Lambe whithersoever he goeth And give your self no rest vntill you appeare before God in Sion Forsake Babel Let Ierusalem come vp on your heart and help you to build the walles thereof though it be in a strait and troublous tyme. And this which I speak vnto you by the word of God I wish to be mynded of all that feare God and love the Lord Iesus He that hath eares to heare let him heare Math. 13.9 A Table of some particular things conteyned in this Book ANtichristian corruptions yet had in the Church of England Pag. 63. c. Antichrists of two sorts pag. 95. Of the Apocrypha books pag. 22. 60. The Chaldean and Spirituall Babylon compared together pag. 99. c. Of the Beasts mark Preface Section 3. Pag. 163. 189 Blasphemy in the professiō Ministratiō of the Church of Eng. p. 22. 60. 188. 189. Of the auncyent and late Bishops pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of the Name Brownists pag. 2. A true visible Church described pag. 14. 196. The true Church hath but one Lord-bishop the Lord Iesus Christ p. 163. 189. It is Christs ordinance that there be true offices of Ministery and a lawfull administration and to a faithfull people pag. 16. 19. 39. The Worship and Ministery of the Church of England is against the Prophecy Priesthood and Kingdome of Christ pag. 33. c. Of the Church of England Pag. 1. 3. 11. 27. 122 126. 161. c. Her confusion pag. 16. 103. 122. 200. Conviction pag. 42. 53. 78. 108. 130. c. Book of Common prayer pag. 27. 33. 63. 86. 96. 120. c. Dispensatiōs and Licences Pag. 65. 73. False doctrines pag. 122. 157. c. Fundamentall errors pag. 22. 114. 147. Excommunication and Absolution Pag. 33. 65. Hierarchy and Ministery Pag. 2. 23. 27. 63. 120. 122. 188. c. Holy dayes pag. 33. 64. Idol-temples P. 65. 121. 126. Indifferent opinion of the Hierarchy pag. 94. 120. 121. Persecution pag. 66 108. 112. 133. 177. 178. 197. Profession pag. 21. 60. 120. 171. Speaking lyes in hypocrisy pag. 150. 151. Will-worship and superstition pag. 27. 33. 82. 86. 87. The faith of the Church of England abolisheth the Second commandement and perfection of the Scriptures pag. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth all outward governement of the Church to be vnwritren and vncertayne pag. 28. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth the inventions of Antichrist to be Christs ordinances if the Magistrate so please pag. 61. 69. 72. The Preaching Sacraments Prayer c. in the Church of Engl. appoynted by mens precepts pag. 82. 86 87. None can ioyne with any Chutch or Ministery of Engl. but they must needs partake with their Antichristian abominations pag. 88. 170. The estate of the Ministers and Church of Engl. compared with Corahs c. pag. 32. 53. 130. 138. Difference to be put between true Churches having corruptions and false Churches making show of Religion pag. 92. 133. 161. 195. Things verifyed of the members of a true Church may be applyed to a false Church and yet not iustify their estate pag. 83. Of the Ethiopian Churches pag. 94. Of the error of Christs descension into Hell pag. 115. 116. Of the Foundation in Christian Religion pag. 46. 51. Some dying in fundamentall errors yet saved pag. 44. 45. 545 Some holding no fundamentall errors yet condemned pag. 48. 146. The falsest Churches and greatest Hereticks hold much truth pag. 47. 104. 106. 113. 136. 137. The Heathens acknowledging and worshipping of the true God p. 123. 124. The Papists bring more show of Scripture for their grossest heresyes then Mr Iacob or any other do for the Hierarchy c. pag. 129. A notable false doctrine of Mr Iacobs wherein it seemeth he is alone p. 172. Three speciall things to be noted in Mr Iacobs Replyes pag. 9. How Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded pag. 12. Popish shifts vsed by Mr Iacob pag. 26. 30. 32. 128. 136. c. Idolatry and false worship of two sorts pag. 67. 80. Visible Idols in the Church and worship of England pag. 120. Of the Iewes Church Preface Section 4. 5. pag. 83. 84. 89. 195. 197. Of Imposition of hands pag. 208. 210. Of the forbidding of Mariage and Meats pag. 73. 129. 135. 137. 140. 143. 147. Of the Martyrs pag. 8. 29. 40. 44. 54. 67. 79. 182. How the Ministers of England are made ordered pag. 188. 189. The word and Sacraments administred and received in the Church of Engl. in and from a false Ministery pag. 16 64. The Oath ex officio pag. 63. Of such as live and dy Papists c. pag. 146 Of the word Prelate pag. 188. Seven Questions yet vnanswered pag. 164. Separation from the Church of England graunted in expresse words by them selves pag. 156. 157. 169. The Sacraments administred in the Church of England with many corruptions pag. 15. 17. 25. 33. 64. Of Sacramentall speaches pag. 117. 118. Of the Samaritans pag. 104. c. The Parable of the Tares pag. 158. 173. Testimonyes of the Prelates themselves against the Church of Engl. p. 16. 200. Testimonyes of the Reformists against it p. 16. 27. 39. 79. 86. 103. 129. 176. 200. Testimoyes of the Reformed Churches against it pag. 17. 176. Testimonyes of the Martyrs and of former tymes against it pag. 162. 163. 177. 180. 182. 183. The Testimonyes alledged out of Scripture for defence of the Church of England are also against it Preface Section 3. 4. 5. 6. pag. 51. 52. 195. Of Tithes and maintenance of the Ministery pag. 209. 210. The Word of God onely is to be our rule and light of our feet pag. 22. 30. 34. 203. The word and ordinances of Christ as playne for vs now as was for the Iewes vnder the Law Yea more playne pag. 128. The obiections of Discōtinuance of Antiquity of Ambiguity in expounding the word c. answered pag. 128. 129. How the Lord abhorreth in his worship the mixture of mans inventions with his word and ordinances pag. 61. 101. 209. The doctrine and worship of Divels pag. 121. 122. The Lotd accounteth them to be made and worshipped as Gods whose ordinances are observed though it be for his worship pag. 80. 117. 122. Princes and Magistrates ought to abolish all false worship Ministeryes and to mainteyne the true which God hath prescribed in his word p. 199. Though they do not yet ought all the people of God to forsake the false and cleave vnto the true Preface Section 4. 6. 7. pag. 43. 46. 51. 101. 148. 158. 163. 170. 180. 184. 196. c. ERRATA PAg. 6. lin 9. read thus the Assumption And note downe in the Margent Pag. 86. and 87. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is after a sort or in part Pag. 183. Mr Tindals testimony there alledged is in his works printed together pag. 176. in the Book called The obedience of a Christian man Pag. 197. lin 41. sinne as Pag. 200. lin 38. starting hole Pag. 204. lin 9. that they FINIS
AN ANSWER TO MAISTER H. IACOB HIS DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministery of England By Francis Iohnson an exile of IESVS CHRIST Though myne Adversary write a Book against me would I not beare it vpon my shoulder would I not bynde it for crovvnes vnto me Iob. 31.35.36 Printed in the Yeare of our Lord. 1600. The Title and inscription of Mr Iacobs book because there is often relation vnto it hereafter both in the Preface and in the Book it selff therefore I thought good here to insert it at first Thus it was word for word as followeth A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND Ministery of England Written in two Treatises against the Reasons and obiections of Mr Francis Iohnson and others of the separation commonly called Brownists Published especially for the benefit of those in these parts of the lovv Countries MIDDELBVRGH By Richard Schilders Printer to the States of Zealand 1599. To the Christian Reader grace and peace from our Lord Iesus Christ THere came out of late good Reader two books from one Mayster Henry Iacob a Priest of the Orders of the Prelates The first was agaynst his Lord Mr D. Bilson now Prelate of Winchester concerning Christs suffrings and descending into Hell The latter agaynst me by name and others like mynded tovvching the Church and Ministery of England Now although the Prelates could not well be offended at him for publishing the former agaynst the doctrine of theyr Church senig * In K. Edvv tyme about 50. Yeares synce long before him Mr Carlill a learned man had both publikly disputed in Cambridge and printed a book agaynst that error of Christs descension and that with great approbation of the most godly and learned at that tyme Yet belike fearing the worst and knowing the hatred of the Prelates how deadly it is he did presently after send forth his other book in defence of the Churches and Ministery of England So as whatsoever displeasure his Lords the Prelates conceyved agaynst him for the former there was now some hope that they might sooner be appeased vpon view of the latter Or howsoever it should fall out yet what like lyer way could he take to make all sure on his side then by the first book to get the forward Preachers and professors to take his part agaynst the Prelates and by the other to have both them and the Prelates themselves to stand with him agaynst vs Yet I heare some of his owne coat give out that he hath dealt very simply in publishing so weak and raw a Treatise against vs. And true it is in deed that his Treatise is such In the publishing whereof no wisedome hath he shewed at all vnles it be in this that he hath thus let all the world see that against the errors of the Church of England there is plenty of Scripture to be had and vrged but not a jote to be found for defence of theyr VVorship Ministery constitution c. For if you mynd it †Yet I deny not but he hath scattered some errors also in that book in his book against Bilson about the question of Christs suffrings and descending into Hell you shall see proof after proof readily brought from the word of God And on the contrary in his book against vs not onely no such proof but in stead thereof eyther his owne assertions and comparisons obtruded vnto vs as oracles or the Names of Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley and other dead men opposed to the word of the living God or putting over his cause to the State to be defended himself being not able to speak one poore word in defence thereof c. Such is his latter book and such are the grounds of it A very great and straunge difference between two books set out by one and the same man the one straight after the other and both of them in matter of Religion If I had first published these Replyes and Aunswers which passed between vs no doubt but many would have had a prejudice thereof and all would have thought I had done it purposely to shew the weaknes of that cause and falsehood of that Ministery c. But now when he a member of that Church yea a Minister of it even a Priest of the Prelates creation hath first published them albeit the same thing be done yet it is both without all prejudice and pretended by him for defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Be it that he hath not done it so well as many would have it yet it is the best he could And what if he thought by this meanes eyther to stirre vp some others more able herevnto or at least to shew his owne good will Doubtles where there is want of ability a mans good will is to be accepted And why should any then misinterpret so good a meaning If any of the Prelates or others of that Church like it not they may learne by his example iff not to lay theyr hand on theyr mouth yet to try if they can plead the cause any better For worse I suppose they would be ashamed to do it I had thought in this case I should never have seen any more absurd writing then Mr Giffards and Bredvvels But now to Mr Iacob may they well give place And iff any can be found of all the Priests in England more sencelesse then these let such for theyr worthynes as standerd bearers be Prelates of theyr chiefest Seas And as for Mr Iacob seing he hath done his best let all men be content to beare with his simplicity who otherwise might well note his folly for vndertaking ius how the defence of that which yet in deed he leaveth altogether naked and helples By the title of his book it seemeth he thought to carry away the simple Reader who eyther could not or would not mynd what should follow after it In the book it self he thinketh his plea to be very good if he can say for the Ministery and other abominations of theyr Church They are errors but not fundamentall sinnes against the Second commandement but not vtterly abolishing from Christ c. And this is the summe of his whole book A plea which he counteth vnaunswerable Yet in deed no other but such as openeth a wide doore for all maner errors and sinnes to be receyved and nourished amonge them which themselves shall presume not to be fundamentall c. So that now theyr Church is ready when they please to entertayne agayne the offices of Abbats Monks Fryers Nonnes Cardinals c. the doctrines and practise of Auricular confession Prayer in an vnknovven toungue Prayer for the dead Seven Sacraments Holy vvater holy ashes holy palmes holy bread Creame spittle oyle and salt in Baptisme Consubstantiation Deniall of the cup to the lay people Denyall off vvarres and Magistracy in Christians Denyall of Mariage in Ministers c. For these and many mo errors of the Papists Lutherans Anabaptists it is like they hold not to be fundamentall And therefore
although theyr Church receyve them yet is Mr Iacobs defence as sound for them then as it is now Neyther may any for these or the like separate from theyr Church worship or Ministery if you will beleev him Yet note that for proof of this assertion you must let them take day For as yet they can shew you none And what now if any of the errors which the Church of England at this day retayneth be fundamentall What will Mr Iacob say to that Then agayne he is at a flat Non plus and all his book is not worth a rush save that it yeelds vs the cause and graunts theyr Church to be a false Church aÌ„d theyr people to be no true ChristiaÌ„s in that estate For this therefore see what is sayd in the Treatise hereafter following Pag. 22. 114. 147. 148. What also if D. Bilson should aunswer Mr Iacob for that poynt of Christs descension into Hell as he aunswereth vs for theyr Church corruptions that though it be an error yet it is not fundamentall yea and that they in K. Edvvards dayes held it Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Would Mr Iacob take this of his word or think it a sufficient warant for the holding thereoff or bynd others to be likewise mynded c. But to let this passe let Mr Iacob mynd well the estate and practise of theyr Church but in such particulars as I have named hereafter Pag. 63. 64. 65. and then let him aunswer as before God Are they lawfull or vnlawfull Are they of Christ or Antichrist Of God or the Divell Lead they to heaven or hell May they be found in the Word and Churches of God or in the Popes Churches Canons Portuis Pontificall May they any maner way be approved and communicated withall or are they not wholy and with detestation to be refused and abhorred For aunswer hereof I will wayte till Mr Iacob reply agayne And in the meane tyme I will now aunswer what he and his Prefacemaker have already published Where first I desier the Reader in both of them and in Bridges Bancroft Bilson Hooker Sutcliff and all such writers of that Church to mynd these three things 1. That all theyr reasoning and perswasions are no other but such as may lead men eyther backe agayne to Popery or the ready way to Atheisme or at least to receyve whatsoever religion the Prince pleaseth so themselues account it not to be fundamentall Thus are they all blynd guydes Thus do they all teach to continew in sinne Thus do they shut vp the kingdome of heaven before men neyther entring in themselues nor suffring them that would enter to come in 2. That they do even set themselues to carpe at the truth it self and at the mayntenance and practise thereoff To which end they vse they care not what objections and abuse they care not whom 3. That they never do so much as offer to bring proof from the Scripture for theyr estate and practise See the particulars afterward rehearsed Pag. 63. 64. 65. And mynd iff there be any of them all that in any book they have written have brought warrant for them from the word of God Onely D. VVhitgift made an assay for some of them but he was so taken downe by Mr Cartvvright as he was glad to lay downe the bucklers which synce that tyme neyther himselff nor any other durst take vp And now Sutcliffe himselff can tell them iff Mr Cartwright have the better hand of D. Whitgift that then the Church of England is no true Church of Christ and that there is iust cause to departe and separate from it Sut. Engl. b. Pag. 228. These things noted I do now come to Mr Iacobs book and first to the Preface which his fellow and frend at a need hath prefixed before it Where I will for more evidence of the truth and stopping of theyr mouths first set downe his owne words as I do also Mr Iacobs afterward in the book it self and then make aunswer vnto them He that made or wrote the Preface subscribeth his Name thus D. B. And thus he beginneth it The Publisher to the Christian Reader Section 1. ABout Three Yeeres since Maister Iacob having some speach vvith certen of the separation before mentioned concerning their peremptory vtter separation from the Churches of England vvas requested by them briefly to sett dovvn in vvriting his Reason for defence of the said Churches And they vvould either yeild vnto his proofes or procure an ansvver vnto the same VVherevppon the Argument follovving this Preface vvas set dovvne in vvriting by maister Iacob vvhich the said parties did send to Maister Fr. Iohnson being then prisoner in the Clinke in Southvvark vvho made an ansvver vnto the same conteyning 3. Exceptions and 9. Reasons in denyall of the Assumption vvherevnto Maister Iacob Replyed Aftervvard Maister Iohnson defended his sayd Exceptions and Reasons And finally Maister Iacob Replyed againe As by the particulars themselves appeareth The Aunswer These two letters Geuev Scot. Allobrog Disc Pag. 7. D. B. I fynd to be set for Doctor Bancroft now Prelate of London in a * shameles book of his not long synce sparsed abroad In which respect as also considering many as godles things here agayne published albeit some might think it were therefore to be ascriâ—ed vnto him yet for other causes partly appearing in the book partly knowen of the man I thinck this Preface was not made by him but rather by another †Daniel Buck D. B. a Scrivener of London a man that hath turned his coat and forsaken the truth as often as †Doct. Pernâ— D. P. the old turne coat did if not also oftner He it was that by letters desired of me to aunswer Mr Iacobs Argument as here is said being himself at that tyme separated from the false worship and Ministery of England to which vomit he is now againe returned wallowing in that â—â—yer from which then he was washed Then also he could say himself thought Mr. Iacobs Argument was frivolous and of no waight and that his desier with some others was to have it answered for the stopping of Mr Iacobs mouth who thought it vnaunswerable Herevpon I made answer vnto it and as there was occasion by Mr Iacobs doubled Replyes have aunswered agayne and agayne I have also for sundry causes consulted with others therein and namely with Mr Henry Ainsvvorth Teacher of our Church my work-fellow to the kingdome of God approved in Christ At London 1593. and Mr Daniel Studley another off our Elders who hath given vp his life for the Name of our Lord Iesus Christ being first * adâ—udged to death afterward exiled c. And now vnto thee good Christian Reader I exhibit the whole Treatise conteyning beside that which was published before my aunswer also to Mr Iacobs second and last Reply that thou mayest try the matter by the word off God and as it agreeth therewith so to receyve it and no
further nor otherwise D. B. The publisher to the Reader Section 2. Novv having vveighed and considered vvith my selfe the great ignorance and errors vvherevvith those of the separation aforesaid are and have bene lately carried avvaye namely to affirme That all that stande members of the Churches of Englande are no true Christians nor in state of salvation And such like most vngodly sentences vvhich vvould grieve any Christian soule once to thinke on much more to publish to the vievv of the vvorld And vveighing likevvise vvithall the greate vveakenes of manie Christians among vs vvho through vvant of experience or due consideration of things as they are may easelie by theyr delusions be dravvne avvay into those errors vvith them I haue therefore Asvvell in hope of reclaiming of the said parties from their said extremities vvhich novv I iudge the most of them for vvant of meanes see not As also for the staying of others from running into the same grievous excesse vvith them novv published this discourse to the vievv of the vvorld vvhich hath line buryed in the hands of some fevv Many being desirous of it vvho by reason of the largnes in vvriting out of the same could not obteyne it VVhere vnto I am so much the rather induced For that the Reasons herein by Maister Iacob alleadged haue by Gods blessing reclaymed many from their former errors and satisfied others vvho have bene doubtfull and subiect to fall into the same In the examining of vvhich Discourse I shall desire the Reader to observe a fevv notes for his better proffiting in the same 1. And First among the rest to note this as a token of the strange and obstinate dealing of Maister Iohnson and others of them viz. That heretofore vntill such time as the Argument hereafter mentioned was framed against them they neuer denyed That the doctrine and profession of the Churches of England vvas sufficient to make those that belâ—eued and obeyed them to be true Christians and in state of salvation But alvvayes held professed and acknovvledged the contrarie As by the publike confessions of themselves namely Maister Barrovv Maister Penry and Maister Iohnson himselfe in this discourse mentioned in Pag. 167. 168. appeareth But novve they seing That if they should acknovvledge the said Doctrines and profession to be sufficient to salvation That then this conclusion vvould of necessitie follovv that those that hold and practise them are a true * * VVhich yet Mr. Penâ—y coÌ„fessed see Pag. 168. Church And so theyr ovvn former iudgements should be crossed Rather I say then they vvould be dravvne to that They novve stick not to deny their ovvne confessions vvhich they thinke to be the faifest vvay for them and like vnnaturall children so vehemently hate contemne and dispise theyr mother vvho bare them nourished and brought them vp from vvhose brests they sucked that svveere milke of the meanes of euerlasting life and salvation if euer they had any tast of it at all Beeing notvvithstanding not abashed novve in a desperate manner in the hardnes of theyr heart to affirme ‡ ‡ VVhich appeareth generally by denying the Assumption of Mr. Iacobs particularly in these Pages 29. 139. 140 141. That none by the doctrine of the Churches of England can be a true Christian or saved But that they all worship God in vayne Are abolished from Christ Are Babilonians Idolaters departers from the faith worse then Infidels And such like most vnchristian sentences making them all one vvith the Church of Rome c. VVhich impious affirmations vvould cause any Christian heart to lament and bleed for grief VVhose vnchristian sentences and false and deceiptfull Reasons the very naming vvhereof vvere sufficient to refute them are most plainly taken avvaye and cleane ouerthrovvne by these brief Replyes of Maister Iacob vnto every of them vnto vvhich I referre yovv Onely this I adde vvith all vvhich I vvould desire might be noted That if they continevv in their former confessions That the Doctrines and profession of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation As they ought it being the very truth Then are they all in a most grievous schisme in so peremptorily condempning and separating from such true Christians and Churches And if they deny it as they have begonne to doe Then doe they runne headlong into an intollerable sinne and extremitie vvithout all vvarrant of Gods vvord And besides give iust occasion to be called fearfull * * VVhich name they vniustly give to those that iustly for this theyr extremity forsake their fellovvship Apostates in so vvholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth vvhich before they imbraced and acknovvledged The Aunswer All that the publisher hath published here is eyther some foolish conceits of his owne or some frivolous cavils and malicious calumniations against the truth and vs that professe it His conceits of his ovvne knovvledge and our ignorance of his ovvne strength others vveaknes of reclayming and satisfying many by publishing this discourse of the force and plainenes of Mr. Iacobs Replyes c. I omit according to the rule which saith * Prov. 26.4 Aunsvver not a foole according to his foolishnes least thou also be like him But his cavils and calumniations against the truth and vvitnesses thereof being also objected by Mr Iacob in his Replyes I have aunswered in the Treatise following according to the counsell of the same Wisdome which saith †Pro. 26.5 Aunsvver a foole according to his foolishnes least he be vvise in his ovvne eyes The Aunswer therefore to that which here he obiecteth of our assertions and sentences of our former and present acknovvledgement of the Church of England her profession doctrines members Assemblyes c. see it in the Treatise following Pag. 7. 16. 20. 22. 33. 60. 63. 73. 82. 86. 94. 103. 106. 116. 120. 147. 158. 162. 170. 177. 188. 196. 200. c. And here note withall 1. That in all these things we are still of the same mynd as heretofore Mr Barrovv Mr Penry my self and the rest of vs have ben So far are we from crossing denying or any way altering our former judgement and confession as he falsely pretendeth For which see Pag. 177. 178. 179. 180. 181. 2. That we do not hate contemne and despise theyr Church which he calleth the Mother that bare vs c. but inasmuch as we have ben members thereof heretofore in which respect she was then in deed our Mother but now do see her to stand in adulterous estate we do therefore plead vvith her that she may take away her fornications out of her sight and her adulteryes from between her brests And we go out of her that we may not partake in her sinnes and that we receyve not of her plagues Both which things we do at the commaundement of God and by warrant of his word wherein he hath straitly charged all his people thus for to walk Hos
2.2 Rev. 18 4. 3. That even of the Church of Rome it may in some respect be said The doctrines and profession of that Church are sufficient to salvation viz. if the truths they hold be considered alone and apart from theyr errors and corruptions and these other also not imputed vnto them For confirmation whereof see in the Treatise following Pag. 47. But now then I aske Are they of England therefore in a grievous schisme in so peremptory condemning and separating from such Christians and Churches Let him aunswer in his next 4. That this D. B. himself hath heretofore held and witnessed that the Church of England standeth in Antichristian estate vvorshippeth God in vayne putteth from her the truth and ordinance of Christ is in her constitution a daughter of Babylon the Mother of vvhoredomes c. and therefore if now he deny it as he hath begun is both runne headlong into an intolerable sinne and extremity without all warrant of Gods word and besides giveth just occasion to be called a fearfull Apostate in so wholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth which before he embraced and acknowledged Advisedly I say as this Preface and his daily practise declareth For advantage sake because he hath done it in loue of himself seeking his owne things not that which is Christs that he might have prayse of men and account in the world that he might be released from imprisonment where somtymes he hath ben a witnes of Christ in bands that he might enjoy the favour of his Frends that he might without feare and disturbance of the Prelates or theyr Officers †Rev. 13 1â— buy and sell that is keep his shop follow his trade make profit and advantage thereby for himself c. This by his course of dealing appeareth to be his case But both him and all others that eyther refuse or forsake the truth we leave vnto God who tryeth the hearts and searcheth the reynes and will give every man according to his works 5. That the word of God being on our side for our profession and practise as in the Discourse following is shewed we neyther do nor need regard this mans or any other theyr tales clamours abuses threats reproches sclaunders c. The mischief of theyr tongues God will bring vpon theyr owne heads if they repent not To him we commit it D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 3. 2. Secondly I would desier the Reader not to be caried away with the multitude of corruptions from the Question or matter in hand viz. Whether the good doctrines of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation in them that in simplicitie of heart beleeve imbrace them notwithstnding the multitude of errors and corruptions which Maister Iohnson repeateth to the contrary But to have an especiall regard vnto the same Which is the maine poinct that hath doeth altogeather deceive them viz. To have an eye to the corruptions in the Ministery worship governement of the Churches of England But never to looke vnto the nature force of them whether simply of their owne nature they overthrow faith Christianity or whether they be held of obstinacy a convicted conscience or not Therefore I pray you marke examine the errors which they reckon vp I desire the same also of them for whose good especially I published this Treatise And after due consideratioÌ„ see if those errors are simply of that nature which before we have noted If they be not as Maister Iohnson nor all the men in the world shall ever be able to prove they are Then do they gett no aduantage by those errors to this purpose which they vrge them for although they were Thrice as many * * NotvvithstaÌ„ding they are to many already more as they are Thus they may see how they have all this while ben deceived are now to seeke a new for defence of their separation For I hope they will not say That every error held in simplicitie by Christians doth cut them off from salvation in Christ Then should they condemne themselves vnlesse they hold Anabaptisticall perfectioÌ„ which surely though I thinke they hold not simply in their consciences Yet in their practize by condemning others so peremptorily that jump not even with them in every poinct they come very neare it But let this passe wee see then That of necessitie the nature of the errors must be regarded Euery sinne is not alike Me thinkes then that they should affoard that favour to others which they would have others affoard vnto them namely That as they would be accompted true Christians through their faith in Christ notwithstanding their errors which they must acknowledge * * Ps 19.12 1 Cor. 13.9.12 are infinite many in this life So they should accompt of others in the like case which even common sence humanitie would require them to graunt To impresse this thing a little better in their myndes I will a little turne my speach vnto them And I would pray them to call to mynde the many errors corruptions which they beare with amonge themselves lay them the errors with vs togeather they shall see their equality Some of you hold it vtterly simply vnlawfull to sweare by a booke to prove a will take an administratioÌ„ or sue in the Ecclesiasticall Courts To shut vp your shops vpon Holly dayes Festivall dayes c. And that these are the inuentions of Antichrist c. And others of you hold these things alâ—ogeather lawfull have doe put them in practise with many other such like things which I could name But these shall suffice Now the thing which I would froÌ„ hence note is this Can you among your selves beare with such weighty poinctes as these which you say are the inventions traditions of Antichrist that man of sinne which in your accompt are the ‡ ‡ I vvould you knevv the marks of the Beast a litle better marks of the Beast ††Rev. 14. which whosoever receiveth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God shal be tormented in Hell fier for ever And will not your stomackes serve you to beare with the Churches of England in the like or rather in far lesser matters what equitie is there in this Surely you are for the most part so wholy given bend your wits myndes so much to looke into the estate of other men other Churches to apply the scriptures to them As you sildome or never look into your owne estate or apply the scriptures to your selves But looke vnto it it will be your decay in th' end You may fee then by your owne practize all errors are not alike Obiection But yet will some say are not all the scriptures commaundements of God fundamentall to be obeyed alike c. Let such consider of this scripture 1 Cor.
Note also that of the teachers spoken of to the Corinthians the Apostle saith themselues shal be saved 1 Cor. 3.15 albeit theyr vvork of affected eloquence do burne and vanish away as smoke Whereas contrarily of the teachers of erroneous doctrine he saith They haue not God neither serve the Lord Iesus but are accursed For proof whereof see the Scriptures here alleadged before 4. Finally because the Apostle writing els where to the same purpose and to the same Church of Corinth doth himself playnely declare that this is his meaning As namely in 1. Cor. 1.12.13.17.19.20.21 2 Cor. 2.17 4.2 11.3.4.5 6 For which cause it may well be thought that the Spirit of God in this place did in great wisdome and of purpose compare theyr entising speach and vayne eloquence to vvood hay and stubble which are combustible aÌ„d cannot abide the tryall of fier that whereas they did much glory in this course they might euen by this resemblance now see and consider the vanity thereof and how vnworthy it was to be suted with the foundation which is Iesus Christ As on the contrary he resembleth the teaching of the Gospell in simplicity and playne evidence of the Spirit to gold and silver which will abide the fier and to precious stones which are of great valew to teach them by this comparison that albeit such maner of teaching seemed base in outward shâ—â—â— and were of small account with men yet it is in deed precious such as will endure the tryall and is accepted with God as being the right handling of the word and sutable with the foundation Iesus Christ Thus much I thought to write here for the clearing of the true sence and meaning of this Scripture Which by reason of misunderstanding is perverted not onely by the Papists to mainteyne theyr feyned Purgatory but by many Protestants also partly to vphold such errors annd doctrines as they hold against the word of God partly to defend theyr estate notwithstanding that such errors and false doctrines be retayned among theÌ„ Now by this which hath ben said the Reader may see both how ignorantly this Scripture is misapplyed by Mr Iacob and his Scribe and that being disappoynted hereof they have not so much as the apperance of any one Scripture to alledge in defence of theyr Church-estate But it comes well to passe as * Beza in 1 Cor. 3.10 one sayth of Purgatory-fyer that theyr Church constitution is built of stubble wood and hay so as the flame of God being now kindled agayne there is no marvell that in our memory it is for the most part already set on fyer For Mr Iacobs aunswer in Pag. 192 As also for the exceptions he bringeth here of errors simply fundamentall c. of the Martyrs of the Church of Englands conuiction obstinacy c. For these I say because they are all borrowed from Mr Iacobs Replyes following whither himself referreth vs I have there purposely handled them and therefore will I not here stand vpon them but thither refer the Reader for them As namely for Mr Iacobs Reply in Pag. 192. to the aunswer therof in Pag. 203. c. For the exception of errors simply fundamentall c. to Pag. 22. 51. 114. 144-147 c. For that of the Martyrs to Pag. 8. 29. 40. 41. 44. 46. 54. 67. 79. 162. 182. For the Church off England theyr conviction obstinacy c. to Pag. 42. 53. 78. 103. 108. 126. 127. 130. 131. 132. 140. 161. 174. 175. 203. c. Finally for these and all such like to the whole Treatise following where Mr Iacob this mans Rabbi both speaketh himself and is aunswered agayne Yet before we proceed vnto it let vs see what the third note is which he would further have here to be observed D. B. His Preface to the Reader Section 4. 3. Thirdly I vvould desier the Reader to observe the vvresting and misaplying of certen places of scripture vvhich partly in this Treatise and also in other their vvritings they alleadge for their absolute and peremptory separation from the Churches of England VVhich I haue thought not amisse here to sett dovvne that thereby the Reader and themselues vppon better consideration off the ende and scope of the holy Ghost in these places may see hovv they vvrest and misapply them cleane contrary from the true and naturall sence thereof The scriptures vvhich they alleadge for theyr separation are these Then the sonnes of God saw the daughters of men Gen. 6.2 Yee shall keepe therefore all mine ordinances and all my iudgments and doe them that the land whither I bring you to dwell therein spew you not out therefore shall ye bee holy vnto mee for I the Lord am holy and I have separated you from other people that you should be mine Lev. 20.22.26 So the children of Israell which were come agayne out of captiuitie and all such as had separated themselves vnto them from the filthines of the Heathen of the land to seeke the Lord God of Israell did eate c. Ezra 6.21 Departe departe yee goe out from thence and touch no vncleane thinge goe out of the middest of her be ye cleane that beare the vessels of the Lord. Esa 52.11 Fly from the middest of Babell and departe out of the land of the Caldeans Ier. 50.8 And fly out of the middest of Babell and deliuer euery man his soule from the fierce wrath of the Lorde Ier. 5â— 6.45 Come not yee to Gilgall neither goe ye vp to Bethauen Hos 4.15 Come to Bethell and transgresse aÌ„d to Gilgall and multiply transgression c. Seeke not Bethell nor enter into Gilgall and goe not to Beersheba Amos. 4.4.5 Saue your selues from this froward generation Act. 2.40 And when certen were hardned and disobeyed speaking euell of the way of God before the multitude he departed from them and separated the Discipels c. Act. 19.9 Therefore come out from among them and separate your selues saith the Lorde and touch no vncleane thing and I will receive you 2 Cor. 6.17 And I heard another voice from heaven saying goe out of her my People that ye be not partakers in her sinnes and that ye receyve not of her plagues c Rev. 18.4 These are the very mayne grounds on vvhich theyr separation is builded vvhich being duly vveighed vvith the scope of the text you shall very easely finde that not one amongest them all vvill hold in proportion vvith this time nor beare the separation they gather from them First because either they concerne such times and states as the people that liued in them vvere professors of or subiect vnto open grosse Infidelitie either HeatheÌ„ or AntichristiaÌ„ Idolatry not in some particuler customes outvvard ordinances but in the vvhole body and povver of Heathen Antichristian religion such as could not possibly stand vvith true faith and religion at all VVhich can not be said of these times present standings vvithout open vntruth 2. Or els
because if they be not of that sort they affoard no such absolute separation at all but only from wilful rebellious and obstinate disobeyers euill speakers and from apparant grosse corruptions but not from the vvhole publike body of those assemblies nor from the lavvfull and good things vsed in such times aÌ„d standings as have not vvholy svvarued from the faith though there vvere divers grievous faults both in doctrine and practise suffered among them As by the example of the Ievvish Churches in the times of the Prophets especially of Christ himselfe may plainly appeare The Euangelistes make mention in diuers places That they worshipped God in vayne teaching for doctrine mens preceptes They made their proselites the Children of Hell two fold more then they were before They made the commaundements of God of none effect by theyr traditions such as beleeved in Christ they excommunicated c. Yet vvere they a true Church notvvithstanding these and many other grievous enormities vvith vvhom Christ himself and his Apostles had communion and fellovvship sometime in those good things that vvere among them And so might they vvith the Churches of England vvithout iustifying or allovving these things vvhich they see to be euill All vvhich things doe more fully appeare in the conference it selfe as it follovveth hereafter The Aunswer May it not fitly be said and applyed to D. B. in this case which Christ hath spoken concerning all such How sayest thow to thy brother Suffer me to cast a mote out of thyne eye and behold a beame is in thyne owne eye Hypocrite first cast the beame out of thyne owne eye and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brothers eye Mat. 7.4.5 Even the very last thing yea and all the show from Scripture that he brought for defence off theyr Church-estate what is it els but the wresting and misapplying of that Scripture to the Corinthians viz. 1. Cor. 3.12.15 as before may be seen in his Second note And now agayne for those Scriptures which here in his Third note he setteth downe eyther as alledged by vs or noted by himself out of the Evangelists for defence of theyr estate what other thing doth he in aunswer of the one or allegation of the other but onely pervert aÌ„d misapply them against the true sence and purpose of the Spirit of God therein Yet â—o so impudent is this Baalâ—e become as having so great a beame in his owne eye he will yet pretend as if he saw a mote in anothers eye and think he hath sayd ynough in defence of himself and his Churches estate if he can but pretend that others misapply the Scriptures against them But as Salomon saith Better is the poore that walketh in his vprightnes then he that abuseth his lips and is a foole Proveâ— 19.1 Therefore will I here both shew the vprightnes of our walking and withall convince the foolish abuse of his lips First then note that there are three things specially for which we alledge these and many other Scriptures which he concealeth Namely 1. That in the constitution of every true visible Church even from the beginning of the world this hath alway ben one speciall thing to be observed that it was separated from the world and abominations thereof Neyther otherwise could there ever be any true visible Church vpon the earth And yet with the Church of England it is not thus in theyr estate 2. That the Church of England now standing in confusion with the world and subiection to Antichrists Ministery worship c. we therefore as all other the people of God are bound to separate and depart from it because otherwise we could not but partake in her sinnes and so be subiect also to receyve of her plagues 3. That being thus separated from them we are bound to ioyne to the true Church of Christ in the communion of his Gospell to keep all his ordinances whatsoever he hath in his word prescribed for his Church notwithstanding any persecution or exception of Man to the contrary These three things are so evidently and vndeniably taught in these and the like Scriptures throughout the book of God as it is straunge and lamentable that any having them thus applyed should yet be so piteously blynd as not to see it or so impudently bold as to deny it For other the like Scriptures therefore teaching the same things see these also Gen. 9.27 12.1.4.7 19 12-16 et 35.2.3 Exod. 4.22.23 8.25.26.27 10.8.9.24.25.26 19.5.6 20.4.5.6 Numb 16.26 Deut. 7.3.5.6.11 Lev. 18.30 Ezra 9.14 Psal 110.3 119.21.113.128 Esa 2.2.3 8 12-18 9.16 44.5 Ier. 4.18 15.19 18.12.15 50.4.5.8 Ezech. 16.44 22.26 Micah 2.10 Zach. 2.7 8.21.22.23 Mal. 1.6.7.8.12.13.14 ct 2.8.9.13 3.16.17.18 Mat. 28.20 Ioh. 7.17 10.1 5. Act. 2.41.47 5.29 9.26.27.28 17.4.7.34 28.24 Rom. 16.17.18 1 Cor. 5.6.7 Phil. 1.5.27.28 3.2 Col. 2.8.22.23 1 Thes 5.22 2 Thes 3 3-12 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5.13.14 2 Tim. 3.1.2.3.13.14.15 2 Ioh. ver 9.10.11 Iude ver 3. Rev. 14.9.12 17.14 19. 9. 20.4.6 and 21.7.8.27 and 22 10-19 The words of these and the like Scriptures I need not here set downe The godly Reader will search them I doubt not after the example of the Beâ—eans so much commended by the Spirit of God Act. 17.11 Next I aunswer that the Apostles do themselues so alledge and apply the Scriptures to the matters which they handle as we after theyr example do in this For proof hereof see but these places following and mynd them well 1 Cor. 6.16 and 9.9.10 and 10 7-18 and 14.21 Rom. 9.25.26.27 28.29 and 10.18 Heb. 2 13.14 and 3.7 c. and 12.26 29. and 13.2.5.6 Iam. 2.8.9.10.21.22.23 and 4.5.6 and 5.16.17.18 1 Pet. 1.16 and 2. to and 3.20.21 2 Pet. 2. ch Ioh. 19.36 1 Ioh. 3.12.15 Iude ver 5.6.7.11.14.15 Rev. 11.8 Now compare herewith the places in the old Testament from whence these are borrowed and you shall fynd that divers differences might be noted between the one and the other Shall we therefore say that they are wrested or misapplyed by the Apostles God forbid To give an instance or two The Apostle Paul alledgeth that against fornication which by Moses was first spoken of lawfull mariage 1 Cor. 6.16 compared vvith Gen. 2.24 And in the same Epistle albeit the Corinthians which were of the Church there did not worship God by the Idols of Corinth but did onely eat at the feasts in the Temple which were after the sacrifices done yet the Apostle alledgeth agaynst them the example of the Israelites who both made a golden calfe and by it worshipped the Lord. 1 Cor. 8. and 10. chap. vvith Exod. 32.5.6 And the Apostle Iames speaking but of one particular breach of the Law viz the accepting of mens persons alledgeth and applyeth against it the summe of the whole Second Table Iam. 2.8.9.10 vvith Let. 19.18 And Iude agaynst Apostates Schismatiks disbounders
of themselues raylers murmurers malicious covetous presumptuous lascivious hypocriticall vnstable discontended and such like persons alledgeth the Prophecyes Scriptures examples which were before of them in Enochs tyme of the vnbeleuing Iewes the Sodomites evill Angels Cain Balaam Corah c. Iud. Epist vvith Gen. 3.1 and 4 3-16 and 19 1-25 Numb 14. and 16. and 22. chap. c. Now in these as in the rest and many other so alledged in the Scriptures may divers differences be observed Yet are they all notwithstanding fit and pertinent for that wherevnto they apply them Neyther can any be ignorant but that there will be difference eyther of time place cause sexte persons things maner or such like circumstance in any allegations and yet they be pertinent nevertheles It is not materiall then though some differences might be noted between the case of England and theyrs of whom those Scriptures speak seing notwithstanding they do fitly prove that for which they are alledged Let the Reader also mynd here an old Popish shift whereby they labour to turne away the evidence of any Scripture that is vrged against theyr corruptions viz by noting some difference between theyr case and such as the Scriptures alledged speak of This you may see every where in theyr Rhemish notes on the New Testament and in all the rest of theyr books and defence of theyr Church and religion But now further to make the abuse of his lips yet the more manifest marke that the very Scriptures here mentioned by himself speak not onely of the vvhole body and povver of Heathen and Antichristian religion as he pretendeth but of every particular ordinance and vncleane thing belonging therevnto For thus they speak expressely Tovvch no vncleane thing Keep all myne ordinances and all my iudgements Be ye cleane Partake not in her sinnes c. By all which is most plainely forbidden all maner of partaking not of the whole onely but of every parcell of Antichrists or any other false worship whatsoever As to the second difference which he noteth here of theyr vvilfulnes rebellion obstinacy partaking vvith the lavvfull and good things vsed among them c. it is handled and answered in the Treatise following Pag. 42. 43. 88. 108. 130. 132 161. 170. 171. 175. 180. The particulars which he citeth out of the Evangelists towching the Iewes are the speaches and testimony of reproof given vnto them by Christ whē now he threatned to take away from them his kingdome because of those sinnes and other the like among them Mat. 21.43 This man himself knoweth we never doubted but true Churches might fall into errour and the members thereof walk corruptly in which respect they are subiect to be reproved And yet notwithstanding the Church constitution and functions be lawfull and ioyned withall vntill they refuse the voyce of Christ and will not be reclaymed Rev. 2. and 3. Math. 21. and. 23. Act. 2. and 13. and 17. and. 28. chap. Wherevnto when once they come then are all taught to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation Act. 2.40 and 13.46.47 19.9 Esa 8 12.-16 Now if we may separate from such as have ben true Churches when they so fall into sinne and persist as is aforesayd notwithstanding that otherwise they professe many Doctrines of truth how much more may and ought we to separate from all false Churches which stād in the apostasy of Antichrist that Man of sinne howsoever they professe some truth withall 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4 Ezech. 16.44 But of the difference both of the estate and dealing with true Churches and false compared together as also of the weaknes and falsehood of this māner of reasoning which here he vseth I have other where spokē sufficiently both in this Treatise following to which he referreth vs Pag. 92. 161. 195. and in another already published viz. A Treatise of the Ministery of England Pag. 45. 61 62. Note withall that none of the Evangelists neyther any other Scriptures do shew that Christ or the Prophets did at any tyme communicate with the Iewes in any evill but alway reproved them Whereas it is not possible that any should communicate with the Church of England though it be in theyr best things even of the Ministery of the Word Sacraments Prayer etc. but they must needs partake in evill As namely with the Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion and other sinnes of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Let him shew the contrary in any one thing among them iff he can And of this also see more hereafter Pag. 170. 171. 180. Finally let him tell vs if he have said any thing here which they in K. Henry the eight his dayes might not have alledged when the Popes supremacy with much of his religion besides was cast out of the Land and yet they oppugned the truth in many things and became drunken with the blood of the Martyrs notwithstanding D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 5. Obiection But vnto the examples of these Churches me thinkes I heare already that common aunsvver and last refuge of theyrs vvhich is this Those Churches say they were in a true outward constitution And therefore were the true Churches of Christ notwithstanding those grosse errors which they held in other poincts of doctrine and practise But contrariwise say they the Churches of England have a false outward constitution and therefore they are no true Churches of Christ notwithstanding theyr truthes of doctrine c. Ansvver So the outvvard constitution is the maine poinct on vvhich they vvholy depend and for vvhich they vvholy condempne the Churches of England from being true Christians in state of salvation VVhich I doubt not plainly to take avvay 1 And first concerning the constitution of the Ievvish Churches If vve should examine the same vve should finde that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Tvvo high Priests having by simonie crept in at once vvhich vvas vnlavvfull and contrarie to Gods ordinance notvvithstanding their gloses in their other ‡ ‡ 9. Reasons vvritinges to allovv them to be lavvfull by * * 2 Chrō 24 2.3 Zadok and Abimelech and by ††2 King 24.18 Seruiah the chief Prieste Zephaniah the Second vvhich make against themselues For there vvas never but one high Priest as they confesse * * Ansvver to Mr Hild. Pag. 50. Ergo not tvvo as here vvere the rest vvere indeed inferior to him And yet amongst those there vvas a chiefly also vvho vvere called sometimes Second Priests or Priests of the Second order 2. King 23.4 and sometimes chief Priests Math. 27.1 These Scriptures being compared vvith those in the margin by them cited doe make it more plaine Novv if the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through couetousnes as the Histories make mention It is not likely that the inferior offices did remaine sound but vvere asmuch or more altered The Priests generally being such couetous
vvicked persons theyr offices beeing very gainefull and besides they liuing vnder the authoritie of the Heathirish Romans vvho ruled ouer them All these things considered it is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution on vvhich they so much depend vvere vvholy altered from the right institution and therefore vvould make nothing for them As for theyr allegation of Mat. 23.1 VVhere they say Christ testifieth that they had true offices by saying they satt in Moses chaire It vvill not help them any vvhit at all For Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chaire must be vnderstood of somevvhat else themselves ‡ ‡ Mr Barrovv Mr Greēvvood in diuers Letters and Treatises have vnderstood it heretofore of Moses doctrine The Aunswer Do not they erre that imagine evill And doth not a deceyver speak lyes Prov. 14.22.25 What then may we think of him that counteth it a small thing to lye against Man if he do not also open his mouth against heaven and give the lye to the holy Ghost himself See both in this man here Against vs and I feare against his own conscience he forgeth a lye when he sayth vve do vvholy depend on their outvvard constitution c. For he knoweth we obiect against them besides and separate from them for much false doctrine publikly taught and mainteyned among them and for theyr wretched persecution of the truth and Martyrs of Iesus Therefore do we not wholy depend on theyr outward constitution From which it is to be noted that he severeth theyr publik doctrine as himself sheweth in the next Section and so therefore here we speak accordingly And that he knoweth these things appeareth both by this Treatise first published by himself where we have declared it in divers particulars Pag. 66. 108. 157. 158 159. 160. and in that himself hath seen and alleadgeth in this very Section another treatise written in answer of Mr A. H. where mo instances are given concerning this matter As may be seen in that book Pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. 22. 23. 37. 90. 91. To the holy Ghost he giveth the lye yea and maketh Christ our Lord a sinner in that which here he speaketh first of the constitution of the Ievvish Churches For the Scripture teacheth that the constitution of that Church was a true one and that Christ did himself communicate therein with them Yet this man besides that he sayth afterward that it is very likely the offices and outvvard constitution thereof vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Euen here at first he sayth peremptorily that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Which how shamefully false it is may appeare even by this that in those very tymes the estate of the Iewes Church yet was such as they were a people separated from the world having the true Ministery ordinances worship and administration which God by Moses had commanded As these Scriptures do plainely testify Luk. 1.6.8 9.10 11. 2.22.23.24.27.46 Mat. 8.4 Ioh. 1.19 4.22 5.1 11.55.2 Tim. 1.3.5 Yea they would not at any hand admit eyther of confusion of people or of any other Ministery then God had ordeyned As may be seen for the first in Act. 21.28 29. and for the latter in Iob. 1 19-25 Mat. 21.25.26 How shameles then is it to say as here he doth that theyr constitution was as greatly altered and corrupted as that of the Churches of England which to this day stand confused of all sorts of people aswell the prophanest as the best among them and have no other Ministery or Leiturgy but such as they have receyved from Antichrist the man of sinne and from Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 And further if the Iewish Church had ben thus corrupted as he feareth not to affirme how could Christ have communicated with them as he did but he must needs have sinned ād that highly against the Law of God viz. if he had as it is now in England joyned to such a Church as were vnseparated from the World or had partaken with a false Ministery or had sent others to a straunge Priesthood and Service or had approved by word or deed any other ordinances then those which God had commaunded c. This Scribe then must eyther approve the Church-constitution of England by the word of God or els confesse that it and the Iewish Churches are in this poynt nothing alike or if neyther of these that then Iesus Christ was a sinner Of whom the truth itself and work of our redemption testify that he knew no sinne at all but was like to vs in all things sinne excepted 2 Cor. 5.21 Heb. 4.15 7.26 This man then doth thus also both blaspheme the Sonne of God and make the holy Ghost a lyar But there were he saith tvvo high Priests at once vvhereas by the Lavv of God there should be but one 1. If it were so albeit thus they offended in the number yet still there was that office and function of Priesthood which God had ordeyned not a new one of mans devise as is the whole Hierarchy of England from the hyest Archbishop to the lowest Parish Priest And so there is no comparison between these two 2. This was the personall sinne of the men not the constitution of that Church neyther of the Offices wherein they were See it in another example Iudas an Apostle of Christ yet betrayeth him Doth it therefore follow that his office of Ministery wherein he was set by Christ himself was vnlawfull Nay that was the sinne of the Man not of the Office wherein he was What is this then to the question in hand when as the Ministery of England is charged to be straunge vnlawfull false in the very offices and functions thereof Yea and this man himself doth here by the whole course of his speach graunt as much 3. Is there any thing here said for the Priests and constitution of the Church of England which the most popish Priests Prelates Monks c. may not aswell alledge for theyrs Is theyr Ministery or constitution therefore such as man be ioyned withall 4. See how straungely these men forget and contradict themselves T. G. first Reply Pag. 83 84. Mr Cartwright writing against D. Whitgift saith If the vvhole practise of the Church vnder the Lavv be looked vpon it shall not be found that any other ecclesiasticall Ministery vvas appointed then those orders of hy Priests and Levites c. vvhich vvere appoynted by the Lavv of God And further that as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any straunge doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true do rine vnder the Name of any other function then vvas instituted by God Yet this man with an whores forehead shameth not to perswade that the offices and outvvard constitution of that Church vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Thus
Levites Iff I say we consider and compare these Scriptures together how playne is it and vndeniable that Christs speach of sitting in Moses chayre c. doth necessarily imply the true offices and functions which God by Moses ordeyned for the teaching and guyding of Israel in his worship and service Thus also may Moses doctrine which they taught in those offices be fitly vnderstood ād comprised in the same speach And what variety then is there betweē this exposition and that which vnderstandeth it of Moses doctrine as he saith some of our selves have done heretofore Finally how ignorant and frivolous is it that here he pretendeth against this viz. that Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate Whenas all the Scriptures aforesaid do reach that God by Moses appoynted them to this function and service And that so as Moses himself though he were not a Priest ordeyned by solemne rite yet by the appointment off God did annoint not onely the Tabernacle and all that was therein but Aaron also and his sonnes consecrating them to the Priests office and offring all the sacrifices appertayning therevnto Which afterward belonged onely to the Priests for to do Lev. 8. 9. chap. Psal 99.6 vvith Heb. 5.4 But perhaps there is a pad in the straw more lurking in his speach then all men are aware of For what if by these words Moses vvas no Priest but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chayre must be vnderstād of some vvhat els he insinuate that it is meant of the Magistrates authority and seing Christ inferreth vpon the sitting in Moses chayre All therefore vvhatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do that all people therefore are bound to keep whatsoever the Magistrates do commaund them Will not his words here beare and import thus much Yea may not his vnderstanding it of some what els joyned with the Magistrates authority seem directly to imply it and that so as what they commaund he thinketh it is to be observed be it lawfull or vnlawfull Which if it be his meaning hath he not here then covertly sowē most detestable doctrine both shamefully helping Christ himself ād wickedly crossing the whole Scripture and practise of the faithfull in all ages For proof whereof see but these and the like testimonyes Exod. 1.17 1 Sam. 22.17 Dan. 3 14-28 6.12.13 Mat. 22.21 Act. 4.18.19 and 5.28.29 17.6.7 Heb. 11. chap. Reu. 2.10.13 12.11.17 13.7.15 14.7.12.13 20.4 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 6. 2. Secondly to let their constitution passe vvhich yet as I have said vvould be found as badde or vvorse then ours vve wil examine their corruptions in doctrine Wherein I would knovv of them vvhich are the greater sinnes of these two sorts viz. 1. A false and corrupt outward constitution 2. Or false and corrupt doctrines I thinke they vvill say the corrupt and false doctrines are the greater as they are indeed For that they doe vvound fester and corrupt the very conscience and doe deceive the hearers thereof Whereas the errors in the constitution of a Church especially in some circumstances as the errors with vs are and those of no small controversie in matters also not fundamentall are nothing nere so hurtfull by hovve much the Tithing of Mint Annis Commin are of lesser force then the other vveightier matters of the lavv Novv from hence I Reason thus If the greater sinnes namely in doctrine doe not simply ouerthrovv a companie of Christians from being a true Church Then much lesse vvill the lesser sinnes namely in the outvvard constitution c But the false doctrines which are the greater sinnes themselves confesse by the example of the said Churches doe not Therefore neither will the lesser For the better explayning of this poinct I would pray them resolve me of this question What if a company of Arians Anabaptistes or Papistes should bee gathered and established in a true outward constitution still reteyne their fundamentall errors before * * Sectiō 3 named Whether should their outward constitution make them a true Church yea or no I thinke they will say no. Thus I hope then it appeareth that the outward constitution whether falty or true availeth nothing to the ouerthrowing or making of a true Church vnlesse other doctrines of the foundation either false or true doe concurre therewith And thus their Obiection of the Iewish constitution is I trust fully ansvvered So that still their peremptory separation and condempning of the Churches of England for some outvvard corruptions remayneth still a grievous sinne vpō their heads for vvhich vvithout harty repentance they shall one day aunsvver before God vvhich vvill be too heavie a burthen for them to beare The Aunswer That which Christ sayd to the Scribes and Pharisees VVo be to you blynd guydes vvhich say VVhosoever svveareth by the Temple it is nothing but vvhosoever svveareth by the gold off the Temple Mat. 23.16.17 he offendeth Ye fooles and blynd vvhether is greater the gold or the Temple that sanctifyeth the gold c. May it not in this case also fitly be applyed to this Scribe Specially seing the Church in the constitution thereof if we sever it from the doctrine as here he doth may in divers respects be compared with the Temple and the doctrine of truth taught and vpheld in the Church with the gold of the Temple As both by these Scriptures doth plainely appeare 2 Cor. 6.16.17 vvith 1 Tim. 3.15 1 Cor. 14.5.6.19.23.24.25.33 2 Thes 2.4.4 Rev. 11.1.2 And by this also that God hath made the promise of his presence and blessing to his Church as to the Temple wherein he will dwell it being so constituted and walking as he hath commaunded Lev. 26.11.12 with 2 Cor. 6.16.17.18 Esa 52.11.12 Ezech. 37.26.27.28 48.35 Mat. 28.20 Yea and this man himself did * Section 3. here a litle before alledge that by gold and siluer spoken of 1 Cor. 3.12 the Apostle meaneth true doctrine Which if it were so there then by his owne exposition may that saying of Christ to the Pharisees well be applyed to him in this case Secondly I aske Doth not the constitution be it true or false alway include the whole body of the Church whereas the false Doctrine is often found but in some members thereof This may be seen in the Churches of Israel Corinth Galatia Pergamus etc. In which respect also the false and corrupt constitution may be of greater waight and more danger then the false and corrupt Doctrine inasmuch as the wounding and infecting of the whole body is far worse then of some parts onely and because the parts so infected if they cannot otherwise beholden may be cut of and yet the body preserved Not contrarily For the better explaning whereof let him resolve me which of these propositions is the truer viz. VVhere there is in a Church false doctrine there is a false Church Or this VVhere there is a false constitution there is a
false Church And contrarily Thirdly I aske Is not the Hierarchy and Church constitution of Antichrist the most detestable anarchy of Sathan that ever was And doth not Sathan far more commonly and readily part with his false doctrine then with it when he must needs part with the one 2 Thes 2.9 and yet can retayne the other He is subtill and of long experience he can mynd and knoweth full well that so long as he holdeth his owne constitution of a Church he can quickly vppon any opportunity bring in his doctrine agayne even with a trice For why He hath both the people ready for the receyving of it being yet still in the confusion and bondage of Antichrist and his owne Ministery also to be imployed in the publishing and serving thereof theyr Offices Callings Ministrations Maintenance being all ready at hand and fit for the purpose Whereas on the contrary when the false constitution is abolished then false doctrine wanteth both hee woonted place of receipt and her nimble wings by which she should spread and fly abroad And here I could alledge for proof hereof the prefer Ministery and estate of the Church of England which being of Antichrist Sathans graundchild and he now having spyed his tyme and found some opportunity beginneth apace by this meanes to bring in agayne such doctrines of his as had for a tyme ben suppressed As namely Free-vvill Auricular Confession Christs soule to descend into Hell The Church of Rome to be a true Church c. Witnesse the Books and publik Sermons of Bilson Bancroft Hooker Androes Harsenet Barret and other the Priests and Prelates of that Church the Marchants of these and the like wares off the Beast in Court City Countrey Vniversity and where not The same thing you may mynd also thus So long as the house standeth still and is furnished with servants and Ministers it is ready for the implements and furniture though removed for a tyme to be brought in agayne and soone to be set vp in theyr woonted place And if you would see an example of these things yet in memory look but at the Churches estate in K. Edwards and Q. Maryes dayes compared together The popish constitution of the Church being not abolished in King Edwards tyme how soone was the Popes doctrine yea and his supremacy in Queen Maryes dayes spread and acknowledged throughout the Land Yet the same doctrines of truth were in K. Edwards tyme published and receyved which now are in England And very like also that it was then with more zeale and love of the truth thē now it is specially considering the generall coldnes of men and the cruell persecution of the truth to which this age synce is come Mynd further that the Offices houses and maintenance of the Fryers and Nunnes being before in the time of K. Henry the eight quite taken away they were not able in all Q. Maryes raigns to reare them vp agayne No albeit they iudged them lawfull and necessary aswell as the other poynts of Popery and did also very earnestly desier and labour to have them reestablished So great a matter it is to have a thing abolished in the whole constitution thereof Even as when an house is rased and pulled downe to the very foundation And here vpon this occasion let me also aske Whether if the Callings and Livings of the Prelates and Priests together with the Idoll Temples and confusion of all maner people in the body of the Church now had in England were so dealt with as the Abbats Monks Abbeyes and Nunryes then were there would not fewer Iesuites and Seminaryes come into the Land Popery lesse increase treason against her Maiesty be lesse attempted and finally all the meanes and hope for the full replanting of Antithrists religion agayne in that Church be vtterly removed and taken away Let this Scribe then go and perswade such as himself that the outward constitution of the Church is but as the tithing of Mynt Annise and Commin c. Whosoever have theyr 〈◊〉 exercised to discerne good and evill will playnely see that notwithstanding any thing he pretendeth yet it is and ought to be accounted among the waighty matters of the Law of God Yea that it is of far other importance and consequence then most men think or will yet be perswaded albeit even experience the Mistresse of fooles might in all this tyme and tryall have taught them sufficient if ynough were ynough for men In cases of Religion Now for his Reason here any may see by that which hath ben sayd that it is very frivolous and of no waight at all The Proposition or first part hath nothing for the ground of it but that which is in question and neyther is alway true nor can be yeelded vnto for very great and waighty causes here before declared Vnto which adde these also 1. That many errors in doctrine are and may be far lesse then the errors of the outward constitution when they are truly compared together 2. That the true outward constitution of the Church alway implyeth both a separation of the people from the World and the joyning of them together in the fellowship of the Gospell and both these to be voluntary Which particulars being considered with the former will teach him not barely to set downe but duly to prove the Proposition in his next Reply The Assumption or second part of the Reason is in some fence true in some sence false and in both against himself and their Churches estate When Churches are set in the constitution and way of Christ if afterward they fall into some errour of doctrine they are notwithstāding for the former to be reputed true Churches vntill being admonished they refuse to heare the voyce of Christ and to yeeld to the truth Thus the Assumption is true and of vs confessed by the example of the Churches of the Iewes c. But when theyr case cometh to be such as they will rather abide in errour then obey the truth and voyce of Christ this so wilfull persisting simply overthroweth such a company from being a true Church in such estate And thus the Assumption is false and so proved to be by the example of the said Churches And both wayes it is agaynst him and theyr Church as will yet further appeare by that which is now to be spoken of his question wherein he would be resolved He asketh VVhat if a company of Arrians Anabaptists or Papists should be gathered and established in a true outvvard constitution and still retayne theyr fundamentall errors before named VVhether then their outvvard constitution should make them a true Church Yea or no. I aunswer 1. Not onely false constitution but false doctrine also retayned make a false Church If it were so then that they could have a true constitution as he supposeth yet by reason of theyr false doctrine they should be a false Church 2 I aske also of him Whether these companyes of whom he speaketh
were true Churches when they fell into those errors as were the Churches of Galatia when the errors about Circumcision and the Law crept in among them Or whether they were Hereticks Sectaryes or the like such as were Hymeneus Philetus Alexander the Apostates of Rome c. falling from the true faith and Churches of God when they came to be gathered and established as he fancyeth If they were of the former sort then they are to be estemed and admonished as true Churches till by despising the voyce of Christ the Kingdome of God be taken from among them Gal. 1.2 vvith 5.2.4 Mat. 21.33.43 1 Cor. 1.2 vvith 15.12 Rev 2. 3. chap. If of the latter then are they no true Churches at all but false and detestable Synagogues of Sathan whatsoever truth in constitution or otherwise they shall pretend Rev. 2.9 Act. 20.30 Col. 2.8.23 2 Thes 2.3.7 1 Tim. 1.19.20 6.20.21 and 2 Tim. 2.17.18 and 3.5.6.13 and. 4.14 Heb. 10.38.39 2 Pet. 2.1.2.3 In de ver 18.19 Rev. 13.11 17. 18 chap. 3. In a true constitution must alway be mynded a calling by the word of God a separation from the world a joyning together in the fellowship of the Gospell and that by a voluntary profession thereof and submission therevnto Now these things considered how is it posible that the Arrians Anabaptists or Papists retayning theyr errours should yet be gathered and established in a true outward constitution Can the light of truth have communion with the darkenes of falsehood Or can Christ in his constitution agree with Belial in the errours of Arians Anabaptists Papists c. 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 4. Finally if he will not heare our aunswer nor the Scriptures testimony let him yeâ— heare Mr Iewell a Prelate of theyr Church resolve his question in this maner * Ievvels Reply to Harding Pag 99 VVithout Christ the Church is no Church neyther hath any right or clayme vvithout his promise noâ— any promise vvithout his vvord Now this D. B. affirmeth himself that these of whom he speaketh are vvithout Christ For he sayth †Before in Sect. 3. theyr errors do of theyr ovvne nature cleane abolish from Christ Therefore by his owne assertion and Mr Iewels layd together they can be nâ—â—eue Church whatsoever faith or constitution they should pretend neyther have they anâ— right in such estate to his blessing Which yet is promised to them that are in the true waâ— and constitution of Christ Mat. 28.20 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Lev. 26.11.12 Thus then appeareth that he doth both ignorantly fever the doctrine wholy from the Churches constitution and that yet when they are considered apart as some tymes and â— some respects they may be each of them that is both the doctrine and constitution according as they are true or false avayle directly to the ouerthrowing or making of the Church to be likewise true or false so as hath ben declared before His crafty putting of faulty here for falâ— will nothing help him but bewrayeth his corrupt dealing the more Els let him shew in his next if he can whether ever there were true Church that stood in false constitution Neyther is the obiection of the Iewish constitution answered at all but remayneth of force against them still And that so much the more as the Churches of England remayne both in falâ— constitution and in false doctrine for both which they are vnder the wrath of God and all â—ound to separate from them And whosoever will not so do it remayneth a grievous sinne vpon theyr heads for which they must answer to God in that day when he will cast the Beast and false Prophet with all such as have ben seduced by them into vtter destruction to have their part in the lake which burneth with fyer and brimstone which is the second death 2 Thes â— 10.11.12 Rev. 14.9.10.11 17.1.2 19.20.21 21.8 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 7. Lastly concerning our corruptions As we cannot iustifie them to be no corruptioÌ„s but must needes acknowledge that there are many yet remaining in our land which vvere left by that man of sinne are as thornes vnto our sides vvhich vve hope God will in time abolish Iudg. 2.3 So dare vve not runne into your extremities to condempne our Churches for such corruptions but waight the appointed time of God for the redresse thereof Yet in the meane time so longe as those most excellent truthes and doctrines of salvation for which God make vs thankfull are still reteyned and held as soundly as by any Church vpon the face of the earth the other errors not simply ouerthrovving the same beeing not held of obstinacy and being also for the most part of great controversie and disputation among the learned So long I say communion in things lavvfull is to be kept with them as before is noted in the example of other Churches Othervvise it vvill come to passe by reason of the * * Mat. 25.13 10.23 dieuersitie in opinions and iudgementes vvhich by the corruption of our nature vve remaine in in this tabernacle as hath ‡ ‡ Lev. 4. Psal 19.12 bene in all ages and * * 1 Cor. 13.9 12. shal be so long as this life of imperfection indureth that no communion can euer bee had vvith any Church liuing no nor any one Christian vvith another Which to affirme vvere most absurd and vngodly These observations beeing considered I doubt not but the Lorde vvill adde a blessing to this vvorke That such as are simple hearted and have exceeded in eagernesse of zeale may see theyr extremitie in so rashly and vnadvisedly separating from and condempning the Churches of England sometymes theyr Nurses and Mothers as before is noted Whereby God may have the glory themselves the comforte euen the salvation of theyr soules through Christ D. B. The Aunswer Now at length D. B. yeeldeth the cause himself So great is the truth and so greatly it prevayleth against every oppugner thereof To omit that he confesseth they cannot justify theyr corruptions and yet they can abide in them he sayth also they must needs acknovvledge that they have many corruptions remayning vvich vvere left by that man of sinne vvhich are as thornes vnto theyr sides Blessed be God which maketh the enemyes themselues bring glory and testimony to his truth They are so convinced as he sayth plainely they must needs acknovvledge it Now therefore let him name them in his next or confesse those to be of them which I have noted hereafter Pag. 63. c. Till then I will onely inferre this herevppon that seing they are such as himself here graunteth them to be viz corruptions of the Man of sinne and thornes to theyr sides even therefore are all bound to separate from them as being condenmed by the word of God For hath not the Lord commaunded all his people wholy to leave the Man of sinne with all his corruptions not to partake in any of his
Church of England be not off the the very same stampe with Mr Hookers for the Church of Rome Thus what by the Prelates and theyr Proctors on the one hand and these Pharisaicall dawbing Reformists on the other theyr case is come to be such as all may iustly feare least the end of that Church will be to look back not onely in part but euen wholy to the Romish Egypt and Sodom and to wallow agayne in the same myer from which they would seem aâ— this tyme to hâ—â—â—e â—en washed For it is just with God to make such eate the fruit of there owne way and to fill them with theyr owne devises Prov. 1.31 And what other thing do the books pretences practise and declining of all sorts both Ministers and people among them â—â—rtend Yet Lord thou God of power and Father of mercy work better things for them and among them if it be thy will To that which D. B. pretendeth next of keping communion vvith them in things lavvfull it being likewise objected by Mr Iacob I haue answered in the Treatise ensuing Pag. 88. 170. 171. 180. Here onely I aske First what one lawfull thing they have that we have not Secondly in what one thing which he counteth lawfull we can have communion with them in that estate and not sinne against God by partaking withall in the apostasy of the man of sinne Of all other things it is most like he will say that we might heare many comfortable truths taught by theyr Preachers and many good prayers conceyved by them Yet such is their case as we can not do this neyther but we must needs partake with the Ministery of Antichrist all theyr Preachers even the best being Priests and Deacons so made by the Prelates Of which see more in the latter Treatise following Pag. 188. c. Not to speak here any further of it or of theyr Book-worship taken out of the Popes Masse-book according to which they administer the Sacraments marry bury pray c. or of the compulsion of all maner people even the most wicked to be members of theyr Church or of theyr Church discipline being in the hands of the Prelates and by the Canon Law or finally of the severall offices entrance ministration maintenance of theyr whole Hierarchy To none of which can any joyne or submit in any part of Gods worship but they must needs partake in evill even in the sinnes of Babylon and of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Such is their constitution and such is the standing of all that continew therein Of his last pretence tovvching diversity of judgement by reason whereof he would perswade to keep communion with them I have spoken * In the Ansvver to Section 3. here a litle before To which now I will adde this onely that his collection herevpon viz. that we should therefore keep communion with the Ministery and confusion of Antichrist for of what els speaketh he if he speak to the poynt in question is most absurd and vngodly And will not Hooker think you for his Christian Papists and some such as Hadrianus for the Anabaptists perswade likewise And what then are we the nearer Or what will these men do in the end hereof Ier. 5.31 This then is not rightly to vse that diversity of judgement wherevnto in many things all Churches and Christians in deed are continually subiect here on earth but ignorantly to abuse it But herevnto it may be ‡ Da. Buck. this man was driven eyther by weaknes of iudgement in himself or by eagernes of contention and malice agaynst vs of whome he hath sometymes ben but now for his revolting from the truth and so persisting is according to the * 1 Cor. 5.4.5.11.12.13 1 Tim. 1.19.20 Mat. 18.17.18.20 Scriptures and ordinance of Christ cast out from among vs and delivered vnto Sathan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Which mercy the Lord Almighty vouchsafe him in Christ from whom he hath declined vnto Antichrist And this is all the harme I wish vnto him or any such even theyr repentance and salvation in Christ Iesus Hitherto of the Preface prefired to Mr Iacobs book Which I have answered somewhat largely from poynt to poynt rather for the satisfying of others then for any waight I judged to be in it my self Now it is tyme that I returne to Mr Iacob himself and deale with him in particular by whom I am spoken vnto and challenged by Name almost in every page of his book As if he had forgotten the old Proverbe which sayth Let not him boast himself that girdeth his harness as he that putteth it off Here then seing that this discourse came first from him to the view of the world and that also without my aunswer to his last Reply let the Reader call to mynd that which is written He that is first in his ovvne cause is iust then cometh his neighbour and maketh inquiry of him Prov. 18.17 So as he now having told his owne tale first and seming to some no doubt to be iust therein it is nedefull that I therefore come in the next place and make inquiry of him Which I do in the Treatise following submitting it now to the judgement of others to be examined of all by the word of God 1 Cor. 2 12-16 1 Thes 5.21 By it therefore do thou ChristiaÌ„ Reader try all things therein and keep that which is good Have no prejudice I pray thee eyther of Mr Iacob or my self but heare vs both speak and then consider what is spoken on eyther side from poynt to poynt And the Lord give thee vnderstanding in all things There is but one way of truth to life eternall And that is in no other but the Lord Iesus Christ Ioh. 14.6 who hath said I am the vvay the truth and the life If therefore the Churches of England as now they stand be in that good and old way prescribed by Christ wherein the Primitiue Churches were planted by the Apostles then doubtles then are in the way of truth that leadeth vnto life Yet this hath not Mr Iacob shewed in all his discourse Ier. 6.16 But now on the contrary if the Churches of England in theyr estate have in the Ioynes off the Church of Rome and with it departed from that auncyent and good way of Christ and do even vnto this day stand in the apostasy of Antichrist and that in theyr publik Ministery worship ordinances confusion of people c. then can they not so standing be assured by the word of God that they are in the way of truth which leadeth vnto life but in the by-wayes of errour which cary headlong to death and perdition 2 Thes 2.3.10.12 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Rev. 13.11 17.1.2 22.18.19 vvith Exod 20.4.5 For which cause all the people of God are bound to separate from them and not to partake in any of theyr sinnes least they receyve also of
their plagues Rev. 18.4 And if it be well mynded Mr Iacob himself howsoever he pretend otherwise yet in deed yeeldeth thus much when he is driven to confesse that theyr constitution is such * Pag. 37. 61 69. 70. 84. 154. as they stand in error and that of Antichrist against the Second commaundement in vayne vvorship departing from and denying the faith in their Ministery c. But for these and all the rest thou mayest see and I pray thee good Reader well to mynd the Arguments Replyes and Aunswers following From the reading whereof I will not not now any longer hold thee The God of peace tread Sathan vnder thy feet and by his word and Spirit lead thee into the way of truth to the conservation of thy soule vnto life eternall And if thou reapest any fruit of my labours give prayse vnto God and pray for me the weakest of his servants and vnworthyest of the witnesses of Iesus The grace of our Lord Iesus Christ be with thy spirit Amen Thyne in Christ Fran Iohnson AN AVNSWER TO M. H. IACOBS ARGVMENTS AND REPLIES concerning the Churches and Ministery of ENGLAND Chap. 1. Of the Title of Maister Iacobs Book which is thus A DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministerie of ENGLAND FRAN. IOHNSON his Aunsvver THe defence of the Churches and Ministery of England were an enterprise worth the taking in hand if Maister Iacob effected in deed what the Title of his Book pretendeth in show But he that readeth his book and mindeth it well shall find him promise mountaines and performe molehils Let the sequell shew it Now I would that Maister Iacob should speak himself without stammering what Churches and what Ministerie of ENGLAND he defendeth All or some only It is a poynt needfull to be knowen and mentioned All may see it would giue great light for deciding the controuersy betwen vs. And who would not think he should readily declaer it Yet he flies from it every where Therefore that he may not alway so doe but may be drawen to answer directly vnto it as also for the Readers better help and more clearing of the truth I wil particulerly and as plainely as I can describe how the Churches and Ministerie of England are to be considered And thē expect his aunswer If I be mistaken or if maister Iacob and such as liue in that Church who therefore haue better occasion to know it can do it more fully and plainely I shal willingly heare it In the meane time this is my iudgment First for the Churches to consider them as followeth 1 In respect of the Conuocation-house which consisteth of the Prelates and some other of the Priests assembled togeather with them And so they haue but one Church in the Land And that when there is a Parliament or like occasion I take it also that out of this Church the Prince the Nobles and people are excluded Saue that when they haue determined their matters they haue for some of them the consent of the Parliament 2 According to the number of their Archbishops and so they haue two Metropolitan Churches vnder which all the rest are subiect and cōprised 3 According to the number of their Arch and Lord Bishops and so there are about 26. Churches comprehending all within their seuerall Diocesses Hither also I referre the Cathedrall Churches 4 According to the ecclesiastical Courts of the Archbs. Lordbs Chancelors Archdeacons Commissaries and Officials vnder which all the other Ministers and people stand subiect and so according to the number of those Courts there may be some 200. Churches or thereabout 5 According to the number of the Parish assemblies of which all stand mēbers and so ther are many thousād Churches in the Land Hitherto of the Churches The Ministery may be considered two wayes Eyther more generally as they are all Priests or Deacons or more particularly as they are superiour or inferiour Superiour as Archbishops Lordbishops Suffraganes Deanes Archdeacons and the rest of that sort Inferiour as Parsons Vicars Curates Stipendary Preachers Houshold Chapleynes and the like Then in al these consider fower things 1. their office 2. their entrāce 3. their Administration 4. their maintenance This for the Ministerie Now let M. Iacob tell vs in his next 1. whether he defend all these Churches and Ministerie of England or but some of them 2. If not all but some only which then they are that he defendeth and which he leaveth as vtterly vnlawfull without all defence 3. For those he defendeth let him show in what place and pages of his book we may find the defence of them For whether it be that I perceyue it not or that he doth it not of this I am sure for my self that I cannot find in al his book so much as any one of them defended As others find let thē speak And to put al out of doubt let M. Iacob shew it Lastly if he will be intreated let him tell the cause why his book being entituled A defence of the Churches Ministerie of England came not out Cum priuilegio Yea why it was printed beyond sea and not in England It is a shrewd token cōsidering the title that his Defence euen at home amōg his neighbours is accoūted very weak and simple For the name Brownists by which we are reproched in the forefrōt of his book note these things 1. That in like manner long since by the Priests and Pharisees were the Apostles and Primitiue Churches termed * Act. 24.5 a sect of Nazarites and at this day by the Papists are the Professors of the Gospel called Calvinists Zuinglians Huguenotes and the like 2. M. Browne from whose name this byword was first taken vp is a member and Minister of M. Iacobs Church not of ours yet holding as we heare in his iudgment the truth we professe but for his practise stāding in the apostasy and false worship wherein they are So then not we but M. Iacob and such like may fitly be called Brownists inasmuch as in their iudgment they hold the things we stand for to be good yet in their practise like Browne are other men walking with the Church of England in her euill way 3. For our selues we acknowledg with the disciples in the Primitiue Churches and the faithful in al ages since that we are ‡ Act. 11.26 Christians striuing now for our time and estate against the remainder of the abominations of Antichrist to keep the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus Therefore doth it not trouble vs that by M. Iacob or any other we are thus reuiled for the name of Christ It is inough for vs that the †1 Pet. 4.14 spirit and truth of God which on their part is euil spoken of is on our part glorified But yet let him and all such take heed vnto it in time Now I proceed to his maine and maimed Argument Which is as followeth Chap. 2. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it is novv propounded and printed by vvhich
three generall pointes 1. That euerie person in England holding our publique faith is no true Christian 2. That all the Christians Churches in King Edwards time namely Maister Cranmer M. Ridley M. Hooper M. Latimer M. Philpot M. Saunders M. Rogers M. Tailor c. were all lims of Antichrist and no true Chaistians 3. That euery soule in England is conuicted in conscience that the PraelaÌ„cie is vnlawfull and vntolerable The First of these is our maine question and the ground of all our reasoning which you gainsay The second though it be not expresly spoken yet it is directly euidently and vndeniably concluded by all and euery of your arguments against vs. As in the seueralls hereafter we shal see The third you are driueÌ„ vnto for defence of your former Assertion which els falleth to the grounde And this you affirme flatly in your defence of your 1. 6. and 7. Reasons Now my desire is that all men would take notice of these your 3. Assertions and consider indifferently whether they proceed from an honest a sober or a Christian minde And you M. Iohnson if you list hereafter to say any more defend these 3. pointes directly and plainly that your aunswers may be briefer and more certain then now they are And novv I come to the particular examination of your former aunsvver First you say You omitted the PropositioÌ„ before not for the soundnes of it but only because you would see how I meant it Why He that hath but half an eie may see the meaning of those wordes where is no darknes nor doubtfulnes of sence at all What fault finde you in it now Forsooth first a want in Assumption and then vntruthes both in the Proposition and Assumption of my Sillogisme There vvanteth you say that I should expresse in the AssumptioÌ„ That our Assemblies be companies gatherd togeather in the doctrines ordinances which we all by lawe publiquely professe and practise Who but a wrangler would not vnderstand that I meant so much Nay doe not my expresse wordes implie asmuch when I say We by law publiquelie professe and practise them Then are not our Assemblies which are by law gathered together in this professioÌ„ power Fy forshame these are sencelesse cauilations But because what in me lieth I would not haue you any more to stumble at a strawe Not that the Argument is vnsound vvithout this addition But because the Reader may see hovv you vvil play at a small game rather then sit out â—â—aâ—unt I haue to satisfie you withall now added those wordes to the Assumption aforesaid in a contrarie letter which you desire viz. and our publique assemblies are therein gathered together Secondly you say that my proposition meaneth that whatsoeuer is held togeather with that which otherwise might make a true Christian or true Church Yet notwithstanding they are so to be reputed as if there were no such additions or commixtures O strange dealing in all my writing I haue no such word no sillable no letter sounding to that sence I haue directly contrarie in my aunswer to your fourth ReasoÌ„ as your self noteth there Yet you M. Iohnson without all shame in the view of the world doe Father on me this foule vntruth most sencelesse errour in your first entrance Further whereas it seemeth you reproue my Proposition requiring to to haue it set thus Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a perticular man a true Christian and hath nothing added with it destroying the foundation of faith That is sufficient to make a companie so gathered together a true Church You must know M. Iohnson that that were an idle vaine addition for wheresoeuer there are any such things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient indeed it is not sufficient to make a true Christian Wherefore nodum inscirpo quaeris this is to finde a knot in a rush Thus much concerning the trunes of my Proposition The AssuÌ„ption examined by the Exceptions Reasons follovving Lastlie you come to deny my Assumption or rather to maintaine your deniall heretofore giuen Where first note that by denying my assumption you affirme the first generall point noted in this beginning That euerie particular person in England holding our publique faith here is no true Christian Which O Lorde who would not tremble to think on Euen that which this man aboue two yeates agoe affirmed and novv againe aduisedly and wilfully defendeth I take Heauen and Earth to record this day whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs examine your exceptions and reasoÌ„s against my Assumption more particularly wee shall see what stuffe it is Your first exception against the same is as followeth Fr. Iohnson his 3. Aunâ—wer VVHat M. Iacob Doth your mouth so runne ouer as you could not but eueÌ„ at first speak vntruth and forge deceit When your beginning is so bad it is an ill token the end will not be very good You would here father vpoÌ„ me three things which I neuer imagined as they are by you collected Therefore to cleare the truth and sâ—op your mouth I will declare what my mind is and hath ben concerning them For the first your wordes are That euerie person in England holding your publique faith is no true Christian Touching this point I mind the estate of your people two waies The one concerning their severall persons considered a part from the constitution of your Church the other concerning their estate and standing in that constitution Concerning the former of these that is considering them apart from the constitution I acknowledge that in diuers of them there appeareth such knowledg and faith of the gospel with the frutes thereof as they may well be thought in regard of Gods election in Christ to be heires of saluation and in that respect to be true Christians God pardoning vnto them their standing vnder Antichrist which they doe not see or mind But withall I feare least many mo heretofore were pertakers of this grace then be now since your Antichristian estate and the vnlawfulnes to abide therein hath bin discouered Concerning the latter that is in respect of their estate and standing in that constitution of your Church I am perswaded whosoeuer so stand holding your publique faith and multitude of Antichristian abhominations withall they cannot by the word of God be iudged true Christians as touching their outward estate in that church of yours but stand all subiect to wrath God imputing this their sinne vnto them And that all therefore who will be assured of Gods mercie and saluation ought with speed to goe out of your Church it still remaining in Antichristian estate To make this matter more plaine take out of Israell an example in Abiiah the sonne of Ieroboam If you consider him as standing with the rest in that apostasie and Church-constitution of Israell he is subiect to like condemnation with them in that estate But if you consider him apart from it as there is found
Iewes * Mal. 1.6.7.8.12.13 Amos. 4.4.5 Esa 1.12.13 polluted the table of the Lord and made their oblations to be in vaine yea if the abuses in Corinth about the Sacrament made that ‡ 1 Cor. 11.20 it was not the eating of the Lords supper what then shal be thought of the heynous abominations of Antichrist retained among you in the Sacraments Your distinction of simply abolishing is but leaven of your owne borrowed from your Prelates and by them from the Papists We plainely affirme that your abuses and corruptions are such as the Sacraments among you are not duely administred according to Christs ordinance and that it cannot be showed by the word of God that they seale vp Gods covenant of grace to your Church and the members thereof in that estate Now see that according to your promise you refute this And prove that notwithstanding all your corruptions mentioned yet Christ acknowledgeth your Sacramēts for his also that the good things and ordinances of Christ wanting among you are not of necessitie requisite In the meane time know that none can partake in the administration of your Sacraments but they must needs withall partake in your sinnes before rehearsed Which the Lord hath most straitly forbidden Rev. 18.4 and 14.9.10.11 Exod. 20.4.5 Psal 119.21 Mal. 1.7.8.13.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Amos. 4.4.5 and 5.5 Ephes 5.11 The particulars of your Article you say you omitted for breuities sake Let others beleev you that will for mine owne part I neither do nor can beleev it You have here taken paines to write an whole book and in it a multitude of words to no purpose Is it likely then that for brevity sake you would omit the most speciall points of the Article which may be written in a line or two at the most Nay M. Iacob these clauses of faithfull men duely according to Christs ordinance are so ful and pregnant against you as you thouht it no wisdome to mention them at all but rather in silence to bury them vnder some generall terme or as your self speak to comprehend them in a generall clause This in deed was the best way to darken the truth and help your self if any way you could But any that mind your manner of dealing may easily see that if these clauses had made but a tenth part so much for you as they are fully against you then you would have ben so far from omitting thē as we should have had them noted downe in greater letters then the rest For your Article it self if the meaning of it were to comprehend those points in your generall clause why then did it so particularly mention them besides Were the framers of your Article so ignorant or carelesse think you as in a brief descriptiō of such a waighty matter they would commit so many vaine and needles tantologies Nay rather they judged all these particulars absolutely needfull specially that Christs ordinance be had and observed and that also in all things of necessitie requisite How say you is not this the meaning of the Article How fondly then and how vnconscionably have you abused not onely your pen and tounge but even your Church and book of Articles whereon you seeme for to rely How just cause also have I then still to demaund where and what your proofes be touching the particulars of your owne description of a visible Church Your parable of a Landlord and a Tenaunt besides that it is popish and against your selues as hath ben shewed it is also false You have not had possession time out of minde as you pretend It is but yesterday since this your Samaritane and misceline religion began viz since King Henry the eight Now also Christ the King and Lord of his Church doth by his servants lay claime to his owne right and disclaimeth your false worship and Ministerie So your owne saying is against your self Nullum tempus occurrit Regi No time doth preiudice the King If you plead your right by any more auncient date as from Christ and his Apostles the evidence may soone be shewed from their writings If you doe it not all men of wisdome will not onely condemne your folly who take vpon you the defence of so bad a cause but will also perceive the impietie of your Churches estate for which no warrant can be shewed frō Apostolik writ For our going out from among you when before we had held part of possession with you I brought warrant from the worde of God which you touch not at all That it lieth vpon you yea and that your self have taken it vpon you to approve your Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion of people c. appeareth not onely by the title of your book which is called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England but by reason also that you began the first Argument and continew to replie Wherevpon you are bound to proue what is denied or in this case put vnto you to be proved We then in aunswer to your Argument noting the falshood of your Hierarchy worship c. it is your part now to approve them by the word of God or to convince that they abolish not your constitution from being Christs If you cannot doe this confesse it and give glory to God That your case is thus hath ben often shewed by vs both in other writings and in these aunswers to your self And of this point there will be occasion afterward to speak againe Touching the impudent vntruth wherewith you were charged first you sayd your selves see not wherein you faile touching Preaching or Sacraments in things necessary I alledged your owne men as witnesses to convince you therein The Admonition T. C. his replies the Demonstration c. Now you aunswer that none of all these do graunt any thing to be wanting vvith you that is necessary to the being of a Church simply nor to the being of a true Ministery or Sacraments but onely to their vvell and convenient being By which bold assertion of yours you both prove and persist in the impudent vntruth laid to your charge For hearken now and you shall heare themselves testifie thus much The first Admonition in the Preface sayeth thus In a fevv vvordes to speake vvhat vve meane Either must vve have a right Ministery of God Admonitiō to the Parliam first and second and a right government of his Church according to the Scriptures set vp both vvhich vve lack or els there can be no right Religion nor yet for contempt thereof can Gods plagues be from vs any vvhile differred And againe in the treatise it self are these words We in England are not yet come to the outvvard face of a Church agreable to Gods vvord Or as it is written in the margent of divers of those books we are scarce come to the outvvard face of a Church c. Take which of these you please the best is bad ynough Touching the Ministerie in particular the same book and men say thus We have an
thousand such like which are all of them concerning the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church By your Diuinitie these and infinite such like are vnvvritten and vncerten but left onely to the pleasure of the Church and Magistrate Yea if it please you the Princes and ciuill Magistrates may them selues be the publique Ministers of the vvord Sacraments and Censures of the Church 2. Any that will may without a calling take vpon him to be a publque Officer in the Church 3. Women may baptise or administer the Lords supper 4. The Iewish Romish or Heathenish Priesthood may be retained 5. Auricular confessiō may be vsed 6. The Keyes of the kingdome of heauen may be appropriated to the Pope of Rome or the Prelate of Canterbury or any other whōsoever 7. The Prelates and their Officials excōmunications do bind in heaven 8. The Apocryphall books and Decretall epistles are Canonicall scriptures 9. The Popes Portuis and the English book of prayer taken out of it are the true and lawfull worship of God 10. The Prelates and Priestes are the true and lawfull Ministers of God 11. Orders Penaunce Extreame vnction Matrimony c. are the Sacramentes of the Church 12. Surplus Cope Cap Tippet Rotchet c. are ornaments of the Ministery Finally all ragges and trumperies of the Romish religion are good and lawfull if it please the Church and Magistrate For why They concerne the outward gouernement orders and ceremonies of the Church And touching them you say Christ hath left no ordinances written certen not perpetuall but left them at the arbitrary appointment of the Church and Magistrate Is not this strange Diuinity Yet you stay not here neither but as men that have bent their tongues like bowes for lyes you feare not to adde further that when the Church and Magistrate appointeth any ordinances whether these or any other touching the outward gouernement and ceremonies of the Church we are to account them Christes owne who hath left this liberty to the Church for to vse O shameles mouth O vnchristian hart Can any Papist or Atheist say more Or can any desire a more euident proof then this that you and your Assemblies thus holding professing and practising as here your self affirme cannot in this estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians and Churches Sixtly you do yet further seek shifts and would colour the matter by pretending That the things which concerne outward gouernement and ceremonies are not of the foundation simply But this will help you no more then the other For first we aske are they of the foundation at all though not simply If they be then seing they are not written nor certen nor perpetuall as here by you is affirmed it will follow that neither the whole foundation is written certen or perpetuall neither the Apostles were faithfull and skilfull maister builders in the laying thereof If they be not then why is this word simply added as if you granted they were of the foundation though not simply Secondly we aske whether the outward gouernement and ceremonies ordained by Christ for his Church vnder the Gospell be not of the foundation asmuch as the outward gouernemēt and ceremonies appointed by Moses for the Church vnder the Law Or if they be whether they are not as faithfully set downe by Christ as the other were by Moses and as carefully to be observed by vs as the other were by the Iewes or rather more inasmuch as * Heb. 3.2.3 Christ the Sonne is worthy of more glory and honour then Moses the seruant Thirdly we aske what fundamentall poinctes Moses and Aaron with the rest of the Iewes ioyning with them held that ‡ Num. 16. chap. Corach Dathan Abiram and their cōpanions held not differing frō them and erring onely touching the Priesthood and Ministery which concerned the outvvard orders and gouernemēt of the Church Was therefore Corah Dathan Abiram and their companie in that estate the true Israell of God Or were not the other truthes they held by this meanes frustrate and of none effect vnto thē Nay were they not therefore vvholy to be separated from and left to the iudgment of God which overtook them and all that ioyned vnto them Yet was their error onely in matters of order and outvvard gouernement of the Church This may serve to convince your vntrue assertions in this place To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c is aunswered before For conclusion I adde concerning this poinct That all such assemblies and people as hold professe and practise as doth the Church of England these abominations following can not by the word of God be esteemed in such estate truely to holde Christ their Prophet Priest King viz. 1. The confusion of all sortes of people though never so wicked and their seed in the body of the Church 2. The offices and callings of other Archb. and Lordb. then Iesus Christ also of Archdeacons Priestes halfe Priestes Parsons Vicars c. 3. The entrance into the Ministery by another way and other Lords then Iesus Christ 4. The executing of it vnder these strange Lords and leaving it at their pleasure 5. The preaching of the word administration of the Sacraments and governing of the Church by vertue of the offices and callings aforesayd and according to the Popish Canons and constitutions 6. The power of Excommunication in the Prelates alone and their Officialls 7. The confounding of Civill and Ecclesiasticall offices and authority in the Ministers of the Church 8. The forbidding of Mariage at certen seasons 9. The imposing and vsing of stinted deuised Leiturgies The English Portuis taken out of the Popes Latine one word for word saue that a few of the grosest things are left out yet keeping the same frame and order of Collects Psalmes Lessons Pater nosters Pistles Gospels Persicles Respondes c. 10. Appointing holy daies to all Sainctes and Angels to the Virgin Mary Iohn Baptist Mark Luke and twelue Apostles severally 11. togeather with Fastes on the Evens and on Ember dayes Fridayes Saturdayes and Lent 12. Prescribing the Ministers to pray over the dead over the Corne and Grasse at some season of the yeare and over Women at their Churching or purification 13. Enioyning them to marry with the King which they make a sacramentall signe 14. And to Baptise with the signe of the Crosse with Godfathers and Godmothers with questions demaunded of the infant that cannot speake nor vnderstand 15. Giving power to Womē to baptise 16. And ordaining that the other Sacrament of the Lords Supper be celebrated kneeling as when they received their maker and with change of the words of Christes institution taking in steed of them the wordes of the Popes Masse book translated into English c. Finally the vpholding of these and all such amongst them onely by carnall weapons of imprisonment death confiscation of goods bānishmen and such like The Assemblies and people I say which hold professe and practise as doeth this
Church of England the abominations aforesayd concerning the outward order and gouernment of the Church whatsoever trueths they hold besides yet can they not by the word of God be deemed truely to hold the Lord Iesus their Prophet Priest King in such constitution of a Church Neither therefore can they in this estate by the vvord of God be accounted true Christians nor the true constituted Churches of Christ And this is all the question between vs. 7. Lastly let the godly and indifferent Reader iudge whether it will not follow vpon your aunswer in this place First that the Scriptures are not sufficient for the building vp and guidance of the Church here on earth Which is contary to 1 Tim. 3.15 2 Tim. 3.16 Deut. 12.32 1 Cor 4.6 Rev. 22.18.19 Secondly that the man of God can not by the Scriptures be made absolute and fully furnished to euery good worke Which is contrary to 2 Tim. 3.17 1 Tim. 3.15 Pro. 2.1.9 Psal 119.105.113 Thirdly that Christ himselfe in vvhome the treasures of vvisdome and knovvledge are hid yet was so foolish carelesse and vnfaithfull as having an house and kingdome which is his Church he hath not in his word appointed vnto it any Offices Lawes and Orders for the due governing and ordering thereof Which is contrary to Col. 2.3 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Esay 33.22 Ephe. 4.11.12.13 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. Rom. 12.3.4.5.6.7.8 Mat. 28.20 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Finally that the Hierachy Worship Sacramēts Traditions Canons and vvhatsoeuer constitutions of Antichrist concerning the outvvard orders and gouernement of the Church being appointed by the Church and Magistrate are to be accounted Christes ovvne Which is contrary to 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 Psa 94.20 119.21.113.128 Rev. 9.1.2.3 14.9 11. O shameles impietie This doubtles is that strange passion and meere desperatenes wherewith you do hereafter vniustly charge vs which we will not here prosecute as it deserveth but exhort you onely to take heed least that vvo come vpon you which is written VVoe vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darkenes for light and light for darknes that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter VVo vnto them that are wise in their owne eyes and prudent in their owne sight Esay 5.20.21 H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 2. Excep IN this your defence of your second Exception it pittieth me to see your extreame folly which is the more miserable because it appeareth to be not of weaknes but of wilfulnes You would know of vs if we hold Christ to be out Prophet Priest and King if we professe to obey him in his ordinances in no other I ansvvered vve do cōstantly professe so as vve professe so vve practise But to make our profession and practise in this poinct more manifest I noted hovv our state meaneth Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and hovv he is to be obeyed viz. That the vvritten vvord ought of necessity to shevv vs our invvard and meer spirituall beleif and obedience As for the outvvard Church order our state holdeth that it is arbitrary to be appoincted and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate And that the worde no vvhere forbiddeth this libertie Where note in this explication tvvo thinges First it is foule vvrong to our Churches and to my vvordes to say as you do That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures Nay it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though external yet are perpetuall things and necessarie and vnchangeable by the Scriptures My expresse vvords and our Churches meaning is That any reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement and rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be our onely and absolute King and Prophet neuerthelesse Whosoeuer doth vrge vpon our Churches further or on my wordes doth slaunder and cauill and malitiously depraue them and nothing else Secondly note in my explication that I iustifie not this opinion of our state but I say Thus to beleeue and practise simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ which you denying generally and vehemently in your sixt aunsvver you deny directly Maister Cranmer c. to haue held the foundation or to be saued vvherein you openly professe and proclaime that second generall poinct vvhich in the beginning I charged you vvith That all Churches and Christians here in King Edvvards time and namely Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper Philpot Saunders Rogers Tailor c. held not Christ their Prophet Priest and King and so consequently they vvere lims of Antichrist for they bare his marke euen to their deaths and no true Christians Alas to see hovv malice and preiudice hath blinded you Is there not greater cause for vs to cry and say against you O shamelesse mouth O vnchristian hart vvhich termes you vainely charge vpon me Is this you that white the Toombs of those Martirs yet in fine condempne them for no true Christians nor their Assemblies for Churches You adde a clause They that professe and practise as doth the Church of England c. If you meane hereby to put a difference betwene those good mens holding this opinion and our Churches now Yea betwene your owne lately and ours novv speake out vvhat is it You can imagine none but this Those good men Maister Cranmer Ridley c. and your selfe of late held these very same errors of the outvvard Church order vvhich vve do But they and you did it seemeth of simplicity vve malitiously they of ignorance vve of plaine obstinacy and hauing a convicted and seared conscience vvhereby they and you might be true Christians for all these errors but vve novv cannot be so If this be your meaning then you graunt vs our Assumption against vvhich all your dispute here is bent You graunt it I say That the whole doctrine as it is by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Secondly we now erre not in these poincts of simplicity but of wilfulnes and malice Say you so Speake that plaine then Our whole assemblies all and euery of our assemblies of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience Are you sure of this Doe you know euery mans hart and conscience so well If you do then you say somwhat indeed But you are then neere as wise as God himselfe to know mens hearts so perfectly whose faces you neuer saw You will say you know diuers whome you dare say are convicted in conscience That is much also to affirme But if you do that serueth not your turne vnlesse all be so conuicted Christ knew a great many in the Church of the Iewes yea of the learnedst and cheifest in authority that were conuicted in conscience that he was the Christ who blasphemed in denying him and yet the Assēblies then were not conuicted they still were true Churches
in such case as Ieroboams was who altered but the outward ordinances of the Church as taking them to be things arbitrary at the pleasure of man Some of them I doubt not wil think you do them foule iniurie And if anie be done vnto you it is done by your self I say no more In the fourth likewise who is it of your owne Church that will not think you offer yet more iniurie both to the State and your self To the State in that you make them maintainers of Popish shifts To your self in that thus you bewray you are at a Non plus and yet yeeld not to the truth Did not your self in your first Replie vse these as good and soūd reasons And now they are convinced to be Popish have not a word to speak in defence of them but put vs over to the State for an aūswer Babell is sore wounded when all her best Physitians do thus give her over For the fift you referre vs to the first point of your explication before Which is aunswered For the sixt you referre vs to the second Which also is aunswered Neither is there any thing of waight in either of the places whither you send vs for aunswer of the particulars here conteined Let others mind if you will not what I said in the fifth and sixth aunswer before and see if your explications have any thing against them to any purpose The seventh you confesse to be against the state of your Church This I wish the Reader to marke And then having minded what I aunswered in the * pag. 34 seaventh place let him consider how wofull the estate of your Church is But now M. Iacob why defēd you not your Church seeing this is against the verie state of it by your owne confessiō Is not your book called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Why do you not then performe what the title of your book doth promise A worthie Champion sure you are to defend a Church that leave it thus in extream miserie without anie succour at all At first you seemed as if you would strike all downe afore you in defence of your Churches and Ministerie Now lo you can be content to leave them on the plaine field to shift for themselves so your self may have hope to scape by running away Before you told vs of the defence of your Churches Now you think it inough to say It is against the state of our Church and not against me Yet tell vs Mr. Iacob are you not a member of that Church And is not that then which is against the state of your Church also against you Otherwise it must needs be that your Church hath a strange estate or that you are a straunge member thereof Can the hand or eye say I am not of the bodie Or that which is against the state of the bodie yet is not against me Yet such is your aunswer as sencelesse as absurd Besides that thus whiles you think to pull your owne neck out of the collar you plunge both your self and your Church deeper in And note withall Howsoever you and such like disagree from the state of your Church in anie thing yet in this you can all agree well ynough to conspire against Christ and against his Church But so it hath ben of old Manasseh * Esa 9.20 21. and Ephraim though they were each against other were both against Iudah The Pharises and Sadducees though adversaries one to another yet ‡ Mat. 2◠15.23 Act. 5.17 handed togeather both of them against the Lord Iesus Hitherto of the seaven particulars I obiected Which all of them remaine vntaken away And thus far of the second exception and your Replies against it In which I have staied the longer because the discussing hereof will more plainelie and without all question end the controversie between vs. Chap. 6. The third Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforseid Fr. Iohnson Thirdly shew by Scripture how the 36. Article of your doctrine and book alledged agreeth with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitie The wordes of the Article are these as followeth The Book of consecration of Archbishops and Bishops and ordering of Priests and Deacons doth conteine all things necessary to such consecration and ordering neither hath it any thing that of it self is superstitious or vngodly And therefore whosoever are consecrated or ordered according to the Rytes of that book we decree all such to be rightly orderly and lawfully consecrated and ordered Also how it agreeth with the Gospell and true Christianitie That the Apocrypha books and Homilies are enioined to be read in the Church by the Ministers diligently and distinctly As may be seen in Art 6 and 35. of that doctrine and book aforesaid H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur third Exception is this That the 36. Article of ordaining Bishops Priests and Deacons Also the reading of Apocrypha bookes and Homilies in the Church agree not with true Christianitie Ergo the Assumption aboue is false that is the vvhole doctrine of that booke of Articles is not sufficient to make vs true Christians I aunsvver you should have said those poincts destroy vtterly true Christianity Ergo c. Els the Argument follovveth not But then vve denie flatly the Antecedent or first part of the Reason But your Reason you vvill say shall goe as you have put it Then marke these reasons even as good as yours and all one An Ethiopian is vvhite of his teeth therefore he is a vvhite man A Svvanne is black of his bill Fr. Io. therefore a Svvann is black * Note that Mr. Iacob hath added this since he received aunswer to the former It was not in the copy before Such also are almost all his notes in the Margent and some alteration in his Replies specially in his first Reply to the Seaventh Reason following Let the Reader observe this dealing My Brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a vvodden legge therefore my brother is no true man Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Excep VVHat the third Exception is you see Have you now as was before required of you shewed these things by the Scriptures Not at all First then marke that although wee call neuer so much for proof and evidence from the Scripture yet you neuer bring it but labour to put it off with other shifts and deuices As if our consciences were to be built vpō your fancies and not vpō the written word of God But what do you say to our demaund First you tell vs these thinges do not vtterly destroy true Christianitie Next you graunt notwithstanding that they agree with it as black doeth with white that is they are cleane contrarie vnto it For this your similitudes doe import Where you alledge That these things destroy not true Christianity we answer that euen that Hierarchy worship cōstitution and gouernement which you professe and practise as appeareth
of them But seeing we are here constreyned vnto it by your slie and colourable answer therefore can we not but doe it for the clearer manifestation of the trueth and better discouering of your deceipt In which respects we entreat the Reader to take in good part and duely to weigh the rehearsall following Antichristian abominations yet reteyned in England 1. The coÌ„fusion of all sorts of people in the body of the Church even the most profane and their seed being members thereof 2. The retaining and vsing in their publique worship the Apocrypha books which have in theÌ„ much error vntruth blasphemie Magick contradiction to the Canonicall Scriptures 3. Their stinted prayers and Leiturgie taken out of the Masse Book with the same order of Psalmes Lessons Collects Pater nosters Epistles Gospels Versicles Respondes c. 4. The forbidding of Marriage in Lent Advent Ember daies Rogation week c. Which the Apostle calleth a Doctrine of divels 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 5. Forbidding of meats as of flesh to be eateÌ„ in Lent Ember daies Saints Evens Frydayes and Saturdayes throughout the yeare Another doctrine of divels noted in the scripture aforesaid 1 Tim. 4.1.3 6. The oath ex officio in the Ecclesiasticall courts making men sweare to accuse themselves 7. Their Pontificall or booke of consecrating Bishops and of ordeining Priests and Deacons taken out of the Popes Pontifical Antichrist corruptions yet had in the Church of England 8. Their intolerable abuse of the word of God therein 9. Their making and being made Priests with blasphemie the Prelates saying to everie one of them whom they make Priests Receiue the holy Ghost vvhose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven c. And they that are made Priests then humbly kneeling vpon their knees at the Prelates feet 10. Their confounding of civil and Ecclesiastical offices and authoritie in Ecclesiasticall persons 11. The offices callings of Archbishops 12. Lord-Bishops 13. Suffraganes 14. Priests 15. Half Priestes or Deacons as they call them 16. Subdeacons 17. Archdeacons 18. Parsons 19. Vicars 20. Curates 21. Vagrant and Mercenary Preachers 22. Church-wardens 23. Chauncellors to the Prelates 24. Deanes 25. Subdeanes 26. Prebendaries 27. Canons and Peticanons 28. Chaunters and Virgerers 29. Epistlers and Gosplers 30. Queristers men and boyes 31. Organ-players and blowers 32. Clerks and Sertous 33. Chapleines and House-priests 34. Doctors of Divinitie 35. Bachelours of Diuinitie 36. Doctors of the Arches 37. Proctours in the Prelates courtes 38. Commissaries 39. Officials 40. Registers 41. Summoners with the rest of that Antichristian and viperous generation 42. Their Ministration of the Word Sacraments Church-governement by vertue of the officer aforesaid 43. The titles of Primate Metropolitane Lords grace Lordship c. ascribed to the Prelates 44. The inferior Prelates swearing obedience to the MetropolitaÌ„ Seas of Canterbury and York 45. The inferiour Ministers wheÌ„ they enter into the Ministerie promising obedience to the Prelates their Ordinaries and wheÌ„ they are inducted to Benefices confirming it with their oath of Canonicall obedience 46. The preseÌ„tatioÌ„ of the Priests and Deacons to the Prelate by the Archdeacon when they are made Ministers 47. Their receiving of Orders at the hands of the Prelates or their Suffraganes 48. The Prelates Confirmation or Bishoping of childreÌ„ to assure them of Gods favour by a signe of mans devising Which is to malte a new Sacrament 49. The Crosse in Baptisme of like nature 50. The hallowed Font. 51. Questions at Baptisme to the infants that can neyther speak nor vnderstand 52. Godfathers Godmothers Their promising that the child doth beleev forsake the Divell and all his workes c. 53. Womens baptising of childreÌ„ Which mainteyneth that heresy That the Children are damned which dy vnbaptised 54. Their houssing of the sicke ministring the Communion to one alone 55. Their giuing it for two pence to all commers 56. Their ministering of it not with the words of Christs institution but with other taken out of the Popes Portuis 57. The receiving of it kneeling Which teacheth still to make it an Idoll and nourisheth that popish heresy of worshipping it receiving their maker c. 58. The King in mariage making it a SacrameÌ„tall signe mariage an Ecclesiasticall action thereby nourishing the Popish heresy that Matrimony is a Sacrament 59. Their Churching or purifying of women Which sauoreth of Iudaisme 60. The standing at the Gospell reading The putting of the cap and making a legge when the word Iesus is read 61. Their Saints Angels and Apostles dayes With their fasts and prescript service 62. The Gang-week praying then over the corne and grasse c. 63. Their praying over the dead at buriall So nourishing the Popish error of prayer for the dead 64. Buriall and the solemnizatioÌ„ of mariage c. made part of the Ministers duty 65. Their absolving the dead dying excommunicate before they can have as they call it Christian-buriall 66. The ring of peales at burials 67. Beadmen at burials and hyred Mourners in mourning apparell 68. The hanging of Churches and heerses with black to help forward theyr popish show off mourning at burials 69. The Idol Temples retayned vsed for the worship of God 70. The popish vestments as Rotchet Square-cappe Tippet Sâ—rplus in Parish-Churches and Coap in Cathedrall 71. The visitations of theyr Lord-Bishops and Archdeacons 72. The Court of Facultyes From wâ—eace are had dispensations Licences Tolerations c. 73 Dispensations to eat flesh at theyr tymes forbidden Which dispeÌ„satioÌ„s also haue this clause sana conscientia that is with a safe conscience plainely shewing that they make it a matter of conscience 74. DispeÌ„satioÌ„s likewise to marty in theyr tymes forbidden 75. Licences from the Prelates to marry in places exempt By meanes of which dispensations aÌ„d Licences is mainteyned that wicked practise that many are maryed without their Parents knowledge or consent Yea many ofteÌ„ stollen froÌ„ theyr frends and so marryed 76. Dispensations for boyes and ignorant fooles to haue Benefices and charge of soules 77. Dispensations for Non-residents 78. And plurality of benefices As the having of two three fower or mo even tot quot as many as a man will haue and can get 79. Patronages of and presentations to Benefices with buying and selling of advowsons 80. Theyr Iustitutions Inductions Prories c. 81. The Prelates Chauncelours CoÌ„missaryes Officials courts c. 82. Their power to excommunicate alone and likewise to absolve 83. Theyr Penance in a white sheet 84. Theyr commutation of Penance and absolving one man for another 85. Theyr Suspensions Deprivations Degradations c. 86. The Prelates Lordly dominion revenewes and retinew 87. The Priests maintenance by Tithes Chrismes Offerings c. 88. The Popes accursed Canon Law 89. And the Prelates like Articles Canons Injunctions c. from tyme to tyme newly devised and published for the Lawes ruling of theyr Church according vnto them 90. The Church-wardens oath to present to the Prelates and theyr Courts all
Agayne when in the first place you say thus we practise and in the latter we shevved before and both these are true of your self who could exclude you from being one of the number in both the places Further it is here to be noted how playnely you affirme these two things agayne 1. That your Church-corruptions are from Antichrist 2. That yet your Church holds them to be Christs owne A most silly absurd and godles defence of a Church as ever was seen That it is tedious vnto you to have your corruptions reckned vp it is no marvell Yet if they be so odious as it grieue you to heare them but named why doth it not more affect you to practise them to partake in and with them and so to increase your sinnes and iudgement before the Lord Heretofore when you preached against them and sued to the Parliament to haue them remoued it was a pleasure to you and all the Reformists to name them to print them to make your pulpits ring of theÌ„ and every where to cry out against them as most filthy and abominable Then if any reckned vp “ Admon to the Parl. Miles Monopodius The Râ—gisur c. above an hundred of them together one after another they were nothing tedious but very welcome Now to mention or heare but some of them is altogether yrksome A very great and strauÌ„ge alteration yet in deed not to be marveled at if it be well mynded For then you seemed to seek and stand for the truth now you resist and strive against it then you would professe Christ against the Prelates now you do hand your selues with them against him And yet behold in all these evils you blesse your selves and them toâ— For what els is this that you say these multitude of Antichristian abominations abolish vs not from Christ Is it not as if you sayd ‡ Deut 29.19 We shall have peace though we walk according to the stubbernes of our hearts Alas Mr Iacob that you should come to this height of impiety thus to blesse and please your selves in the vnrighteousnes of Antichrist that some of perdition then which what greater iudgement could haue come vpon you 2 Thes 2 12. This is not to break and teach to break one of the least commaundements but many of the greatest Mat. 5.19 Now vnlike are you and such other false Prophets of the Beast which say these are to fevv to sleight of to small moment c. How vnlike I say are you to the Prophets of God and Martyrs of Iesus who did alway cry out and witnesse against the least Idolatry they saw amoÌ„g the people They did not sow pillowes vnder their elbowes as you do but denounced the judgements of God against them and refused to partake in their iniquitie So do not you But this belike is your following of Christ this is your obedience of faith even to plead for Antichrist and to do the works of darknes and abomination and yet to say with your hypocriticall forefathers Is not the Lord among vs No evill can come vnto vs. Micah 30 11. Yet you would have vs beleâ—â— that you go not about to dazell the peoples eyes c. Yes Mr. Iacob you do it and proceed in it daily from evill to worse But flatter your selues and them towching the constitution of your Church as long as you will with your lying words of Christ of fayth Ierem. 7.4 c. like as the Iewes amidst all their impieties still vaunted of the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord c. yet this remaineth vpon your heads notwithstanding that these abominations of Antichrist retained among you do of themselues and of their owne naturâ— abolish your Assemblies from being the Churches of Christ or holding his faith in that constitution and practise This I haue proved †Pag. 3.16.60.63 c. before wherein if you rest not you may reply againe Or if you desier more evidence see these Scriptures 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 2 Thes 2-12 Col. 2.8.20.21.22.23 Psal 119.21 Ephes 5.11 1 Ioh. 4.3 and 2 Ioh. ver 9.10.11 Rev. 13.11 and 14.9.10.11 and 17 1-6 and 18. and 19. chap. and 22.18 19. And for mans record see Mr Beza who is as playne as playne may be In an epistle written in the yeare 1566. to Mr Grindall then Bishop of Lord â—â— concerning the present estate of the Church of England thus he saith If those things be true Bez. Epist. 8. vvhich I think haue not likely hood of truth viz that the Metropolitans retaine in vse those most filthy abuses then which the Church of Antichrist hath not any thing more intolerable namely pluralityes of benefices licences of non-residency licences to marry and eat flesh and other the like this vvere certainely vvhich I speak with horrour not a corruption of Christianity but a manifest defection from Christ and therefore they not to be condemned but praysed rather vvhich should oppose themselues to such endevours These are his words Where note 1. That the things are most true and rise among you which he thought were not so much as likely 2. That he speaketh but of fower or five of your corruptions and yet sayth they are a manifest apostasy and departure froÌ„ Christ yea such as he affirmeth he speaketh not without horrour How miserable then is the estate of your Church which hath not onely these fower or five but even an huge masse and endles multitude besides And how fearfull is the case of you all who will yet notwithstanding still abide in that Church and therefore cannot but partake in her sinnes Rev. 13.4 and be subject to her plagues Most of all what an heavy Wo hangeth ouer your head Mr Iacob who feare not yet so boldly to affirme that these some these 91. are to fevv and to sleight and of to small moment of themselues of their owne nature to abolish you from Christ Is not this to strengthen the hands of the wicked that he should not returne from his wicked way by promising him life Is it not to say vnto him Thou art righteous every one that doth evill is good in the sight of the Lord and he deliteth in them Yea is it not to please your selves in vnrighteousnes to condemnation Ezech. 13.22 Mal. 2.17 2 Thes 2.12 Then also why proue you not that which you say You heare beside the Scriptures before alledged that Mr Beza speaking but of fower or five of your abominations sayth they are a manifest defection from Christ Now I suppose you will not deny but manifest defection from Christ doth of it self and of it owne nature abolish from Christ Besides if it be true of fower or five of your corruptioÌ„s how much more of your 91. yea of your hundreds Specially when to the retayning of them you haue now a long tyme added persecution against the truth for the maintenance of them Or what will you aunswer to your self Mr Iacob who haue
c. Esa 1.11.12.13.14.15 Zeph 1.12 1 Cor. 11.19 many things which are verifyed sometymes of the members of a true Church may not also fitly be applyed and alleadged against a false Church and yet not iustify their estate and constitution neither make for them but against them altogeather Otherwise you condemne at once all the Martyrs heretofore who vsually alleadged this †Mat. 15.9 very Scripture against the false worship of the Romish Church as as your self cannot be ignorant Yet in your learning it seemeth the Papists might well have aunswered the Martyrs againe that this Scripture was verifyed of them that were of the true visible Church and therefore made for them and against the Martyrs most notably 2 Secondly when you say This Scripture is verifyed of such as were of the true visible Church with whom Christ and his Apostles communicated tell vp whether you meane that Christ and his Apostles communicated with them in their vaine traditioÌ„s or no. If you think they did that very Chapter sheweth the contrary besides that the whole Scriptures testify that Christ was altogeather free from sinne Mat. 15.2 which he could not have bene if he had ioyned with them in those their inventions If they did not as it is without all question then what doth this helpe you who do all of you ioyne and coÌ„mmunicate with the faâ—se worship of your Assemblyes 3 Thirdly I answer that your note is not worth the noting being nothing at all to the purpose for the question in hand For first who knoweth not that â—e the Iewish Church the doctrine publiquely professed and practised by their Law did not appoint or ratifie any of those vaine traditions but vtterlie forbid them Wheras contrarilie the verie doctrine publiquelie professed and practised by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the false worshipping of God by the inventions of men Secondlie those vaine traditions aforesaid were the personall sinnes of some particuler men in the Iewish Church not publiquelie established by law nor generallie received and practised in that Church ‡ Luk. 1.5.6 8.9.10 2.21.22.23.24.25.27.36.37.38.39.41.46 Mat. 5.17 8.4 15.2 Ioh. 10.34 Zachary and Elizabeth Symeon Anna Mary Ioseph Christ himself and his Apostles with manie others kept the ordinance of God given by the hande of Moses and observed of that Church Neither did they ioyne or pollute themselves with that vaine worship aforesaid whereas in the Church of England the false worship thereof devised by men even by that man of sinne is not the personall sinne of some particular men in it but is publiquelie established by law and generallie received and practised in your assemblies of all the members thereof So then this scripture maketh nothing for you but against you most notably Now whereas in the margent you wish the Reader to marke an open contrariety comparing this and the Sixt Reason togeather we do also referre it to the Reader to iudge whether there be not even an harmonie with this and a direct confirmation of it H. IACOB his 2 Reply to the 2 Reason TO this your defence of your Second Reason I say you have aunswer in your last Exception page 57. You aske what proposition I do deny I answer I distinguish your assuÌ„ptioÌ„ as being a fallacie called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 concluding a thing simply from that which is after a sort like vnto that Reason which I framed against you in pag. 57. A man hath a woodden legg an eye of glasse c. Therefore he is no true man Cranmer Ridley c. held asmuch as wee aftet mens precepts Ergo they worshipped in vaine Geneva holdeth her wafer cakes in the Supper Ergo Geneva worshippeth God in vaine Euen so your Assumption runneth Our doctrine say you Pag. 82. appoincteth Gods worship by mens precepts This is false vnlesse you meane it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after a sort not simply For our doctrine appoincteth not all Gods worship by mens precepts nor the chiefest part of it as the preaching of the Gospell of life Sacramentes and Prayers c. So that it concludeth nothing in that sence Therefore here you play the false Sophister not the Chistian and conscionable Disputer Thus you have ansvver enough to this in the ansvver to your last Exception though you vvould not see it * Pag. 82. Further I noted Secondly That this your Scripture of Mat. 15. Yeeldeth the offenders to be of a visible Church vvith vvhom Christ did coÌ„municate though they held also traditions of men Therefore it affirmeth nothing against vs. Is not this true Why then do you not admit it We never denyed but this Scripture condemned our corruptions But this onely vvee affirme it disanulleth not our Churches Euen as Christ here condemneth the Ievves corrupt traditions but hee meant not there by 〈…〉 their Church Therefore all this is not against our purpose but notably for vs is before observed 1. Concerning your First ansvver in Pag. 83. I knovv this Scripture may be applyed against false vvorshippers vvhich are no true Church But it proueth not I say all them to vvhom it may bee applyed to bee no true Church Therefore you abuse it against vs Except you had first proved vs no true Church nor Christians vvhich yet is in question 2. Where in your Second answere * pag. 83. you say That this helpeth vs not except we say that Christ communicateed with the Pharisies in these traditions like as wee doe in the vaine traditions now For shame leave this folly I say againe I seke not to iustify our partaking in our traditions but I renounce it in sobrietie asmuch as you yea better then you do Yet I say this place shall admit those vvho doe in simplicitie partake of them to be true Christians neverthelesse like as it admitteth the Ievves then 3. In your Third aunsvver “ pag. 83. 84 You deny that those Iewish traditions of washing c. were with them received generally or by Law in their Church Whereto I aunsvver That they vvere generally received as Marke in his 7. Chapter and 3. verse doeth testify and that they vvere rebuked vvho vsed rhem not vvhich is sufficient to make it their Churches doctrine practize though no expresse law coÌ„manded it But I suppose verse 5. where they say why walkest thou not after the traditions of the Elders he meaneth the ordinances of their Forefathers which were to them as lawes besides the lawe of Moses What els is their Thalmud which is till this day euen like to the Canon lawe of Poperie and the Alcoran of Turky Some also vnderstand this of the ordinances of the Elders that is their present Gouernours and then doubtlesse it was lavv And though Zachary Elizabeth Symeon Anna Mary Ioseph Christ and his Apostles did not actually ioyne in these corruptions yet they vvere generall no doubt and by lavv never the lesse and a number of the Ievves simply vsed them and yet fell not from God
Disciples who also were Iewes observed them not and therefore the Pharisees complained Thus you see they were not received of all the Iewes as heretofore I shewed not onelie in the Disciples but in divers other by name Pag. 84. Of whom you cannot denie but it is true They were the personall sinnes of some not the publik established Law neither generallie received and practised in that Church as I noted yours to be in your Assemblies that is of all the members thereof Neither is there anie comparison between yours and theirs as besides that which I have shewed before may appeare even by the vvaterpots here mentioned by your self Of the lawfull or vnlawfull vse whereof I need not stand to speak it being evident that they were no waie so vnlawfull or of such nature as your corruptioÌ„s are Let this then which hath ben said suffice to shew how true and pertinent my aunswers be That there is no contrariety between anie thing spoken here and in the sixt Reason following the Reader may see And that it is your self who do evill and defend it too there need no other witnes but the title and contents of your book togeather with your estate Concerning the thing which here you obiect I have proved alreadie that * Mat. 15.9 this and ‡ See before Pag. 83. other Scriptures being spoken of vaine worshippers in the true Church have ben and may be alledged much more against all vaine worship in the false Church whether it be yours or the Papists or anie other whatsoever And saie your self if the Martyrs have not both ben perswaded that the Iewes were a true Church and yet alledged this Scripture against the Papists as against a false Church Are these contrary I pray you that they need be reconciled Then do you reconcile them for the Martyrs For sure I see no need of it Chap. 9. The third Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF the whose doctrine as it is publiquelie professed and practized by Law in England be not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit vnto Circumcision Then much lesse is it able to make him a true Christian that together with it submitteth vnto a false Ministerie Worship and Governement of the Church devised by man even the man of sinne But the first is true Therefore also the latter The consequence of the Proposition is good because Circumcision was once the holie ordinance and appointment of God himself to his Church and people whereas the Ministerie Worship and Governement aforesaid never was so but is mans device in religion even Antichrists that capitall enemie of Iesus Christ The Assumption is proved Gal 5.2.3.4 where the Apostle speaketh of them that held not onelie such trueths of the Gospell as are in that book of Articles but more then those Yet if they should withall submit to Circumcision he saith they vvere abolished from Christ Christ vvould profit them nothing H. Iacob his first Reply to the 3. Reason THis your Third Reason is from the more to the lesse negatiuely to this effect A Galatian vsing Circumcision is a likelier Christian then one of our Englâ—sh holding the Hierarchy and other traditions But a Galatian is a false Christian Ergo An English professor is much more We ansvver We denie the Assumption Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies true Churches Gal. 1.2 Therefore this Reason is nought If you obiect The Apostle saith such are abolished from Christ. That is in deed some amongst them as held Moses ceremonies necessarie absolutlie to salvation as Act. 15.1 And that †Gal. 5.3 4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 Iustification vvas by the morall vvorkes of the lavv Novv the Churches of Galatia generallie vvere not such but held the saving faith sound doubtles though manie amngest them vvere tainred vvith that infection by reason of some mischeuous teachers that vvere crept in and too vvell interteined among them Hovvbeit vvith the Church Communion vvas kept and therefore so vvith vs you ought to deale If you say vve are vvorse Christians then those grosest Galatians It is vtterly false prove it if you can and it must dravve in Maister Cranmer c. vvith vs also If you say there are many amongst vs as bad or vvorse then those vvorst Galatians you may say it but prove it you cannot Also if it vvere so yet this disgraceth it destroyeth not the Church like as hath ben sayd of the Galatians Fr. Io. his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Reason YOur first answer is that you deny the Assumption Which in plaine termes is asmuch as if you had given the holy Ghost the lye who by the Apostle Paule affirmeth it Gal. 5.2.3.4 As in the proof of the Assumption was shewed before But for the more evidence of the truth I will set this downe in a Syllogisme thus If a Galatian submitting to Circumcision though he hold all the truths of the Gospell professed in EnglaÌ„d withall yet be notwithstanding abolished from Christ and falne from grace Then is he not in this estate a true Christian But the former is true as the Apostle testifieth Gal. 5.2 3 4. Therefore also the latter And yet the former you deny that is the Assumption Therefore you give the lie to the holy Ghost who affirmeth it Next you aunswer that the Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies Churches Gal 1.2 Therefore say you this Reason is nought But you may not thus runne away with the matter and deceive your self and your simple favourers The question is not Whether any Galatians vvere true Christians or any of their Assemblies true Churches For who ever doubted of that But this is the question Whether a Galatian holding all the truths of the Gospell novv professed in England and vvithall submitting to CircuÌ„cisioÌ„ vvere in that estate a true Christian Or putting the case that there were whole Assemblies consisting of such Whether those AsseÌ„blies then in that case were by Gods word to be deemed the true Churches of Christ The Apostle testifieth and saith No You say Yea. Now whether of you two it is meet wee beleeve let all men iudge But what is it then will you say that the Apostle termeth the assemblies of the Galatians true Churches Gal. 1.2 You shew the reason your selfe the light of the truth is so cleare and manifest There were but some of the Galatians that were infected with this error of Circumcision True in deed and of such onelie is the supposition made in the case aforesaid But the Churches of Galatia generally were not such but held the saving faith sound This also is most true they being set in the way and order of Christ And therefore although there sprang vp some heretikes and schismatikes among them which is the †1 Cor. 11.19 Act. 20.30 lot and triall of the Church of God in all ages yet was there not cause to break Communion with those Assemblies but
Devills Doth your Church hold them as things indifferent Or will not this prove a blasphemous opinion even in your owne judgement 4. Mynd withall how the Dispensations given by your Prelates for eating of flesh in tymes forbidden runne stil among you as they did and do among the Papists with this clause fana conscientia that is with a safe conscience and your Excommunications with this clause Ad salutem anioâ—e that is for the salvation of the soule Doth not this shew that your Churches hold not these things as you pretend but agree with the Papists therein Or hold you matters of conscience and salvation for things indifferent 5. Likewise for your Ministery and book of common prayer c. hold you them as matters indifferent or as necessarie for the service of God and salvation of your soules 6. And what say you to the blasphemy magik errors lyes in the Apocrypha books retained among you for the service of God Count you them also for indifferent things 6. Finally towching the Popish opinion of works whereof you speak know you not how they hold that their works merit not for the work sake but for Christs being dyed with his blood Yet notwithstanding this colour the point being well considered it doth highly dishonour Christ and derogate from his office of sole Mediation In like maner the Hierarchy c. that is the governement worship confusion and Ministery of Antichrist retained among you whatsoever you pretend for them yet being duly weighed do as towching your Church constitutioÌ„ abolish the governement and MediatioÌ„ of Christ except you could prove him to be Mediatour of another Testament then his owne Behold what your Indifferent opinioÌ„ will prove when it comes to be throughly scanned As you like it you may hold it still To end this point let the Reader note and not forget it how your self do here in playne termes confesse that your Hierarchy that is your Churches governement Ministery c. was never but nought This suites yll with the title of your book and gives small encouragement for any to serve God by such Ministery worship c. For Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Pag. 40.41 I have cleared them before froÌ„ your hasty censure Now onely let the Reader observed how this is alway the foot of your song Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. As if their errors were better warrant for you then Gods word for vs. CHAP. 10. The fourth Reason against M. Iacobs AssumptioÌ„ aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THe doctrines of faith conteined in that Book alledged would not make him a true Christian who holding them should also still execute or joyne vnto the Ministery of Mahomet that open Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Therefore neither can they make him a true Christian that holding them yet doth still execute or joine vnto the Ministery and worship of the man of sinne the covert Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 4. Reason THis your 4. ReasoÌ„ is Mahomets Ministery and Antichrists Ministery are both bad alike But the good doctrines of our booke of Articles cannot save a man that ioineth also to Mahomets Ministery Ergo the good doctrines of that booke cannot save a man that ioineth also to Antichrists Ministery which thing we in England doe I deny neither the Proposition nor Assumption And yet the Argument is too bad It is a fallacie of Equivocation as we call it Wee must therefore distinguish Mahomets Ministerie and Antichrists Ministerie have a doubtfull meaning If you meane the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in Mahomets or Antichrists assemblies that is in the Turkish or Popish Churches Then I graunt your whole Argument is * Both are nought alike as touching abolâ—shing vs from Christ. true But that wee doe so in England which comes in the CoÌ„clusioÌ„ Or that any ChristiaÌ„ amongst vs thinketh so That I vtterly deny And thus indeed that Scripture alleadged 2 Cor. 6.14 is rightly vnderstood But if you meane by Ministerie the outward manner of calling to the Ministerie and some outward ceremonies vsed by Mahomet or the Pope Then I flatly and absolutly deny your Assumption and your Scripture is answered before in the First Reason For I affirme and it is manifest That such errors being ioined with the good doctrines of that our Book doe not destroy faith and true Christianitie as before was shewed in the Second Exception Fr. Iohnson his Answer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 4. Reason Here Mr Iacob the light of the trueth doeth so dazell your eyes as you freely confesse you cannot deny any whit of the Reason And yet forsooth the Argument is too bad But why so There is you say an Equivocation in it and therefore you will distinguish I answer There is no equivocation at all in the words they are all plaine to him that hath a single eye and will vnderstand the trueth Therefore your distinction here is idle and frivolous Yet let vs see between what things you do distinguish It is between the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies and between the outward maner of calling to their Ministery and the outward ceremonies vsed amongest them An absurd distinction towching the matter in hand For first who knoweth not that these latter are of the very same nature with the former Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Antichristian and accursed before God aswell as the rest of their woship and service Or hath God in his worde giuen any commaundement more for these then for the other Secondly who seeth not that the Argument here is not of whatsoever thing vsed among the Turkes and Papists but of the Ministerie and worship which they have devised and executed As in particular of the publique offices of Ministery reteined among them of their maner of calling and entrance into them of their administration of them of their stinted imposed Liturgie their ecclesiasticall governement Canons proceedings c. All which in the Church of England are taken out of * Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3.4.7.8.9.10.11.12 that golden cup of abominations wherewith Antichrist that man of sinne hath made the Nations of the earth to be drunken As may appeare by comparing their Pontificals Canons and constitutions togeather If you will needes be otherwise minded then prove the particulars aforesaide by the Testament of Christ And marke here that you graunt the doctrine of faith conteined in your booke of Articles cannot make him a true Christian who holding them doth withall receive and ioyne vnto the publike worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies This you say you graunt as most true WherevpoÌ„ it followeth even by your owne confession 1. That such things may be ioined with the doctrines of faith receiued among you as in such estate you cannot be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither the truths which you
commaundement “ Pag. 72. It is no part of my mynd to iustify them ♣ Pag. 84. Our doctrine appointeth Gods worship by Mens precepts after a sort ‡ Pag. 92. Our Hierarchy was never but nought * Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason following I never intended much lesse professed to iustify our whole Ministery estate and maner of worship †His Replies to the 7. 8 Reasons We depart from and deny the faith in our Ministery c. but not totally simply fundamentally ‡ His 2. Reply to the 9. Reason I list not to medle with them I have no leasure c. Now then Mr Iacob say I not well that your Churches in this estate are spirituall Babylon And have I not made a fit comparison between it and the Caldean Babylon of old between the doctrines of truth in the one and the holy vessels in the other If the comparison be good strive no more against it but yeeld to the truth as you haue begun If it be evill convince it by Scripture whence I borrowed it as the testimonyes I alledged declare Vntill you do this which will not be in hast know that the Scriptures here cited are fitly applyed to the purpose in hand If you see it not feare least you be miserably and desperatly blynded And take heed you do not still runne on wilfully to destruction Remember what is written in Esa 6.9.10 Mat. 13.14.15 Ioh. 12 37-43 Act. 28.25.26.27 Towching the place of Ezech. 43.8 I have aunswered in the handling of the first Reason Pag. 80. For Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley c. I have also answered Pag. 40. 41. You that do so often tell vs of them if you had but so much as how of any Scripture for your estate is it like you would be silent therein Nay sure you would not spare much more to tell vs of that agayne and agayne And so let the Reader mynd it Chap. 12. The Sixt Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THe Samaritans those counterfeit children of Abraham Isaak and Iacob did publiquely professe that most excellent doctrine of the Messias to come the truth of which doctrine how powerfull it was to salvation the Scriptures testify Yet doeth our Saviour Christ repute them false worshippers of God because their worship was a mixt one framed after the inuentions of men and traditions of their Forefathers Therefore saith Christ vnto them Ye worship that which ye know not we worship that which we knowe for salvation is of the Iewes By which appeareth 1. That although the Samaritans professed this saving truth yet being false worshippers of God they could not truly challendge vnto themselves in such estate the benefite thereof 2. That the Iewes and they which held their faith being then the true Church and people of God to whom his Oracles were committed and to whom his Couenantes and service did appertayne Christ therefore accounted the Iewes and not the Samaritans to be the true worshippers of God and heires of salvation Iohn 4.22 compared with ver 20.25.29 and with 2 King 17.24 c. In like maner the people of these Ecclesiasticall assemblies staÌ„ding subiect to a counterfeit Ministery and worship being also commingled togeather of all sortes of people Though they professe some truthes which otherwise are available to salvation yet can not in such estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither can so standing challendge vnto themselves the benefit of those true doctrines which they professe because God hath not made his promise vnto any false Church or worshippers of him neither committed vnto any such but onely to his true Church and worshippers his service and holy things of his word prayer Sacraments Censures c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis your Sixt Reason is The Samaritans beleeving that Messias should come Iohn 4.25 were as neere salvation as we of England are But they were false worshippers for all that Ergo so are we for all our holy doctrines beleeved according to that Book of Articles I deny the proposition The Samaritans might know by hearsay and beleeve the Messias should come and Balaam did know it Nomb. 24.17 and the Divels doe now knovv and beleeve Iam. 2.17 Yet none of these beleeved in him It follovveth not therefore that they vvere as nigh salvation as vve of England In a vvord there is a Reason manifest These Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols vvith the God of Israel 2 Kiâ—g 17. Which vvholy destroyed the truth in them though they did reteyne some memoriall amongst them of Messias to come Pag. 62 Wherefore here take the Second Ansvver to the First Reason before But I vvill help you vvith an Obiection surely one fitter then all these The Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethell served not Pagan Idols Obiection but the true God after their ovvn deuises vvhich yet resembled the ordinances of Ierusalem 2 King 12.32 Amos. 4.4 Hovvbeit they were false worshippers onely for their false Ministery and outward false worship for all that they beleeued in the God of Ierusalem otherwise rightly Ergo so are wee of England only fot our false Ministerie and outvvard vvorship To this vvee aunsvvere also vvhat additions of deuices Ansvver and hovv grosse Idolatrie they held it appeareth not But surely it seemeth farre grosser and filthier then the vvorst is vvith vs But yet this appeareth cleerly that the conscience of euery of them euen of the simpliest must needes be conuicted that Ierusalem vvas the only place and ‡ My meaning vvas the Levites vvere not of Aarons line but the Prists onely Aarons line the only Priests Leuits Therfore they could not be indeed true vvorshippers nor vvithin the couenant nor neere to saluation vvhen they all openly rebelled and forsooke them desperatly vvhom the Lord had so expresly chosen Novv our assemblies throughout EnglaÌ„d haue not their consciences so conuicted in the Hyerarchie and Ceremonies Ergo vvee may be in the couenant vvhich they vvere not for all our corruptions Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis Reason as the rest you neyther propound as we did nor make aunswer directly and soundly to any part thereof Now that the nakednes of your answer and light of the truth may better appeare we will propound the Reason more plainlie in a Syllogisme thus The people and assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as to them in that estate the Covenantes holy things and service of God do not appertayne they can not in such constitution by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and asseÌ„blies of England as vnto them in that estate the Covenauntes holy things and service of God do not apperteyne Therefore the people and Assemblies of England can not in that coÌ„stitution by the word of
erected visible Idols 1 Kin. 12.28 and very filthy ones even calves and brute beasts The same you might alledge of the Israelites with Aaron Exod. 32.4 whose sinne notwithstanding was directlie against the Second commandement as you confesse yours also is Besides Mr Iacob have not you and your Church too your visible Idols What els I pray you are your Service book your books of Canons and Homilies your Book of ordering Priests and Prelates taken out of the Popes pontificall your Idoll-shepheards Zach. 11.17 even the Prelates and Priests themselves such as to whom for any sound knowledge they have in themselves or good instruction they give or receive of others may fitly be applied that saying of the Prophet concerning Idols They have a mouth and speak not they have eyes and see not Psal 115.5.6 they have eares and heare not c. Where in the next place to lessen your sinne in respect of Ieroboās you say you professe your Ecclesiasticall orders to be but indifferent things for order and comelines onely how absurd againe and shameles is your pretence Do you in deed professe that your Book of common prayer with the other aforsaid are but indifferēt things for order and comelines only If so then are they not the true worship and service of God commāded in his word to be observed of his Church For that is not an indifferent thing but straitlie enjoined to be kept without spot or chaunge vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Exod. 20.4.5.6 1 Tim. 6.13.14 Col. 2.8.22.23 Rev. 22.18.19 Againe do you professe the confusion of all maner people in the body of your Church to be an indifferent thing for order and comelines onely If so then you might aswell tell vs you professe darkenes to be light disorder and confusion to be order and comelines c. Or do you professe that your Archbishops and other Prelates and Priests with their offices and callings taken out of the cup of Babylon your forbidding of meats and mariage called by the Apostle doctrines of Divels your retaining the Apocrypha Books in your publik worship Pag 63. c which have many lyes and great blasphemy in them Do you I say professe that these with the rest of your abominations ‡ before rehearsed are but indifferent things onely for order and comelines And is this in deed the profession of your generall State as ‡ here you note in the margent Then sure you are not far behind Ieroboam Pag. 110. if not far worse in some respects And by this it is evident to note it by the way that your generall State is conuinced of great impietie inasmuch as howsoever it stood for the controversy otherwise yet none can be so grosse as to deny but thus far you are convinced that these are not indifferent things c. You had need also look well about you what to aunswer for speaking in such maner of your generall State Now for Ieroboam what will you say if he also held this as the chief and mayne thing ♣ that the true God who is infinite and every where present be worshipped but whether at Ierusalem or at Dan Ioseph Antiq Iud. lib. 8. cap. 3. whether in Salomons Temple or at the Calves which he had now made whether by the Levites or by others consecrated to that service c. that these and the like he accounted and vsed as indifferent things as might seem best to serve for the opportunity of their dwelling for that estate c. See Iosephus Antiquityes if he do not testify thus much concerning him affirming further that by these meanes he deceyved the people and drew them from the true worship of God which in the end was the cause of their vtter ruine Lo here the fruit and yssue of such pretences Further you alledge 2 Chron. 11.15 Where Ieroboam is said to appoint Priests for the high places and for Divels and for the Calves he had made So have you also appointed Priests such as God never ordeined and that for your high places and Calves that is for your Idols Temples and Service the places and maner of your publik worship to this day Of which three points viz your Priesthood Idoll-temples A treatise of the Ministery of the Church of England and false worship I have written in another treatise to which I refer you Where it is said Ieroboā appointed Priests for Divels you are to know if already you do not that this is spoken mystically in respect of Gods account and as it was in deed not that Ieroboam and the people did so think and esteem it themselves And that you may have lesse preiudice of this which I say heare it of Peter Martyr who writeth thus of it Ieroboam and his complices said they worshipped not the Calves but Iehovah in that figure visible signe but the Scripture in the Chronicles witnesseth their imagination to be frustrate because in deed they did that service not to Iehovah but to Divels P. M. Lo. com p. 1130. Epist ad Eccles peregrin Lond. I will also help you to vnderstand this point by a like example to which I suppose you will yeeld The Papists in Gods account are worshippers of Divels Rev. 9.20 Yet in their owne judgement they do not so but pretend to worship God himself Even so it was with Ieroboam Further for the more clearing of this matter see what it is in deed thus to worship Divels And heare it of Mr Iunius whose judgement I know in this case you will judge lesse partiall He in his notes vpon Lev. 17.7 saith thus Men sacrifice to Divels if they sacrifice eyther in other place or after other rite and maner then the Lord hath prescribed See Deut. 32.17 1 Cor. 10.20 And this he sheweth was the sinne of the Iewes both in Egypt and in the wildernes first by Exod. 32. chapter then by ‡ Lev. 17.7 this verse where the word hereafter or no more is vsed and lastly by Stephens testimony Act. 7.42 Ieroboam then worshipped Divels not in his owne purpose and judgement but in Gods account because his worship of God was in other place and after other maner then the Lord had apppointed Now seing you graunt this here to be true of Ieroboam how will you denie it either for the Papists from whom you have borrowed your worship or for your selves the children of their fornications And that you may see it is a thing needfull to be mynded in your Church-constitution note for your selves that * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 the erroneous doctrines of Antichrist are by the Lord accounted and in the Scripture called doctrines of Divels †Rev. 9.20 the worship of Antichrist the worship of Divels ♣ Rev. 16.13.14 the Ministers of Antichrist the spirits of Divels ‡ Rev. 18.2 the confusion of all prophane people and abomination in the body of Antichrists Church and religion the habitation of Divels c.
intolerable blame and foule error whereof you speak As for example you professe the forbidding of meats and mariage at certaine tymes the worship prescribed in your Service-book and other the like by read prayer devised Homilyes Saints dayes Communion to one alone women to baptize Ministery of Priests and Prelates Apocrypha and the rest before mētioned Pag. 63. c. Are these after the rule of the written Law Next followed the Assumption to be aunswered which was this Such is the ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblyes of England as they worship God after a false maner Pag. 106. never appointed by him self nor allowed in his vvord This was proved by your confusion of People counterfet Ministery Service c. Now neyther this Assumption nor proof thereof did or do you denie So here againe you yeeld the cause And whereas you were told of hiding the fowle heap of your Abominations vnder the terme of Ceremonies you neither denie it nor amend it but do still vse the same fraude Mind it and amend it hereafter Now where you say it is a iust defence of your Ministery vvorship estate to be as tovvching the substance and foundation of Christianity sound and acceptable to God if your Assemblies throughout the Land have not their consciences convicted therein You may blush for shame to speak so sencelesslie If you meane that your Ministerie worship and estate is not in truth of the substance and foundation of Christianitie then by your owne words you stand in a straunge and fearfull estate besides that you speak not to the point in hand and so there is in your speach no sence at all Or if you meane that howsoever your Ministery worship and estate be whether approved of God or not whether Antichristian or whatsoever els yet your Church-constitution is for substance and foundation of Christianitie sound and acceptable to God then is your speach againe most senceles and absurd For how is it possible that your Ministerie worship and estate should be condemned by God Antichristian or the like and yet your Church-constitution either have the substance and foundation of Christianitie or be in such a way sound and acceptable to God To be disallowed of God and to be acceptable to him are contraries Finally howsoever your meaning be yet still your speach is senceles and vntrue For * Luk. 12.47.48 Hos 4 1-6 2 Thes 1.8 Rev. 14.9.10.11 sinne is sinne before God and so to be estemed of vs though not so grievous before as after conviccion And mens consciences often are convinced when they will not acknowledge it but withstand the truth notwithstanding ‡ Esa 6.9.10 Act. 14.2 28 23-27 Ier. 17.9.10 For both which see the Scriptures here quoted Which refute your assertion sufficientlie Besides that you have without all sence fancyed to your self such a maner of conviction as cannot eyther be knowen or expected Of which point I have spoken before Pag 42.43 How straunge is it also that you say next you knovv this is no iust defence of your vvhole Ministery estate and maner of vvorship vvhich you never intended you say much lesse professed to iustify How agrees this with the title of your book which you call A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Or will you seem to plead for that which you know can not be iustifyed Or will you have vs admit of an vnjust defence For your self confesse this is not a iust one Or is the Office Entrance Administration and Maintenance of some of your Ministers lawfull of others vnlawful and so likewise some parts of your estate and worship For you say here this defends not the vvhole Deale plainelie then Mr Iacob and shew which you hold lawfull which vnlawfull and your proof of both So will appeare I doubt not even by your self both that our separation is just and of necessity to be made from your Ministery vvorship c. and that your defence of them is most silly and senceles That which you speak of Aarons line I said before was a mistaking now I say it is a grosse error And you may be ashamed thus to hide it whenas you should rather acknowledge it when it is shewed you As for the meaning Pag. 105. which you have now coined and newlie added in the margent your words will not beare it Let others judge Thus the defence you make for your self is as absurd as that which you make for your Church After this you are earnest to perswade vs that the vvord of God though it be as plaine and full in it self yet is not so plaine for our vnderstanding vse novv as it vvas for the Ievves vnder the Lavv. An assertion most false most impious such as the very Papists I think would be ashamed of Was it ever heard afore that the Gospell of Christ should be more obscure for our vnderstanding and vse now then the Law of Moses was for the Iewes then Was not Christ think you as willing as able as carefull to explane it for our vnderstanding and vse as Moses was for theirs Or doth not Christ give his Spirit to his people now aswel as he did then Or hath he taken away those dimme shadowes and ceremonies to bring now a cloud of darkenes in stead thereof Or is it false which the Prophets foretold and the Apostles testify to be accomplished for abundance of knowledge and vnderstāding in the tyme of the Gospell far above that which was in the tyme of the Law Compare together these Scriptures following and see if the contrary to that you say be not most true Esa 11.9 Ier. 31.33.34 with 2 Cor. 3. cap. 4.3.4 Heb. 8.10.11 Ioel. 2.28.29 vvith Act. 2.17.18 Hab. 2.2 2 Pet. 1.19 1 Ioh. 5.20 Rev. 1.3 22.18.19 But you pretend three reasons of this your assertion So also did Saul of his action 1 Sam. 13.11.12 Neither was Ieroboam himself without colour for his devised worship as I noted before But this is the auncient cloke of sinne with which it hath ben woont alway to hide it self even from the tyme of our first parents Gen. 3.6.12.13 And tell me your self If pretences would serve what Schismatickes Hereticks Apostates factious or contentious men ever was there that had not store of such so both deceiuing others and being deceived themselves Yet let vs now examine yours You pretend 1 discontinuance a long season of the simple offices of Pastors Teachers Elders and continuance of the Prelacy all that vvhile So might Israell have alledged 2. Chron. 15.3 Had it therefore ben of waight And this pretence might far better serve the Papist then it can you who confesse Rome to be Babylon and know that your Prelacy Priesthood and worship came from thence not from Ierusalem Besides how will you prove this cōtinuance and discontinuance to have ben so manie thousand yeares as you speak of Yet if it were the word of God is still as plaine to
and therefore the Argument strong and of force Thirdlie the particulars before mentioned being found in your Church of England will testifie it also to be verified of you Lastly although many of the abominations of the “ vvhores cup of Babylon be now cast out of England for which we prayse God yet so long as you reteine the Hierarchy Leiturgie confusion of people Canons Rev. 17.1.2.3.4.5 Excommunications c. derived vnto you from that mother of vvhoredomes and abominations of the earth we must needs beleeve and alleadge against you the Scripture and common proverbe which saith As is the mother so is the daughter Ezech. 16.44 For a conclusion let it heer be observed how to defend your estate you are glad to runne into the Papists Tentes and to take vp their worne and rustie weapons which have ben of no force to defend themselves but have often and justly ben turned into their owne bowels Rhemes Annot vpon 1 Tim. 4.3 Read the †Rhemes Annotations vpon this place and see if heer you would not avoyd the evidence of this Scripture against you by the verie same shift and answer as the wretched Iesuites there would turne it from their mother of Rome that is by posting it over from themselves to Martion and Tatianus Read it and note it well H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 7. Reason TO this your defence of your Seuenth Reason I say Though euery where you are very vnreasonable yet no where you seeme more vnconscionable and wilfull then here A strange vntrueth First doe I say No to the Apostles Yea 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 That they who forbid Mariage and Meates doe fall from the faith Doe I say noe Is this your conscience Say I not expresly They doe in these points departe from the faith but not Absolutly and wholy Secondly doeth it follow by my words as you affirme That none departe from the faith but those that departe totally wholy and absolutely whereby all the vildest Heretikes should be iustified as Arrians Nestorians Anabaptists c. Doe I say so Is this also your conscience Againe doe I say The text doth not reproue all the Papists in their forbidding of Mariage and Meates but only Martion and Tatianus of old Doe I say any such thing Nay say I not expreslie the contrarie Are you then a man of conscience Doe you suffer for conscience Know therefore that this I say and my wordes before doe import so much That whosoever doe forbid mariage or meates doe depart from the faith But note some doe more some lesse There are some that doe simply and fundamentally and others in some sorte Men departe from the faith Simply and Fundamentally two wayes First they which doe erre in such maine poincts as doe vtterly abolish vs from Christ and destroy the Foūdation thus doe Arrians Manichees Seruetus Papistes c. Secondly such as holding the Foundation in doctrine sound doe desperatly professe and teach some what els against the manifest light that is in them so Martion and Tatianus doe Fundamentally and simply fall from the faith because they simply forbid those good ordinances of God Marriage and Meates euen against the light of conscience nature togeather wherewith a liuely saving faith cannot possibly stand Now the Papists in this do departe from the faith also but that is only in some sorte or in parte because they forbid these things not absolutly but vnto some sometimes They that depart thus from the faith may bee true Christians notwithstanding yea they are certenly if they be no worse in any thing els albeit you deny it here most fondly without all sence To which end you most vnlernedly and vngodly apply those scriptures A litle leauen leueneth the lump A few dead flyes make the oyntment to stinke Scriptures abused and a litle poyson bringeth death Will you haue no tainte of euil in a Christian but it quencheth the life of God in vs needes Is it not possible your selves might hold some such errors yet remayne true Christians notwithstanding Then if Papists vvere no vvorse but in those errors only they might be true Christians notwithstanding But Martion and Tatianus doe wholy departe from the faith not but that they beleued some truthes but in that they †The same did Corah Dathan and Abiram likewise See before in āswer to the 2. Exception the 2. Reply presumptuously quenched the instinct of nature conscience as I haue said Here then it appeareth how wicked a sclaunder it is that you say I runne into the Papistes tents and fight with their weapons doe iump with the Remists annotations on 1 Tim. 4.1 2 3. Iudge now by this that I haue said whether I doe or no. And note that I save that they be either Apostates or departers from the faith not onely who fall totally as you sclaunder me that I saye but also who fall fundameneally that is eyther the first way or second as I haue afore saide And so doe these grosse Heretikes whom you mention 1 Arius Servetus Papists c. 2. Martion Tatianus Iudas Corah Balaam the Apostate Israelites c. Thus then your questions and demaundes about the Papists their errors I passe by as more vaine then pertinent Onelie note vvithall if this reason of yours vvere good it maketh Mr Cranmer Ridley c. to be departers from the faith and no true Christians Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 7. Reason LEt others iudge Mr Iacob whether in your self this be not in deed found true and vndenyable which you do vainelie charge me withall Though every vvhere you are very vnreasonable yet no vvhere more vnconscionable and vvilfull then here You have contradicted the Apostle and yet have neither conscience nor will to acknowledge it no not when it is told you I proved my Assumption by the Apostles Yea 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Your denyall thereof then must needs be as much as to say No to his Yea. Neither is there anie help for it in your vaine additions of totally simply fundamentally absolutely c. They are rather so many witnesses against your self as anie men of vnderstanding may and will discerne Pag. 136. c But for this see further in my former aunswer Against which you cannot say a word but in stead of replying fall to plaine railing For the conclusions I gathered from your words about Departers from the faith the Papists and other Hereticks let the iudgement be the Readers whether they follow not necessarilie vpon your erroneous and most absurd assertions and distinctions Yea see both for them and for your contradiction of the Apostle if even here where you seek to colour and avoide them you fall not into them againe Here you would haue me know that this you say That whosoever do forbid mariage and meats do depart from the faith Well I heare you say so But a while after I heare you say this too Pag.
the true faith of Christ these Scriptures prove Deut. 18.18.19 Heb. 3 1-6 Mat. 6.24 Luk. 10.27 Rom. 6.16 Col. 2.8.19.20.21.22.23 2 Thes 1.8 2.3.12 Ioh. 3.36 Ier. 4.18 That your Churches coÌ„stitution is such I have proved in another treatise both by the Scriptures and your owne writings viz In a treatise of the Ministery of the Church of England Pag 30-35 4. Your Church forbiddeth Mariage Meats Of which the Apostle saith expressely it is a departing from the faith of Christ and therefore Fundamentall See 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Col. 2 8-23 And before Pag. 137. 140. 5. Your Church persisteth and persecuteth such as refuse to worship the beast and his image or to receyve his marke in the forhead or hand That this bringeth damnation and is Fundamentall against the coÌ„mandements of God and faith of Iesus see Rev. 14.9.10.11.12 17 1-6 18.2.3.4.5 2. Thes 2 3-12 Exod. 20 4.5 That it is your case appeareth by your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people Courts Canons Dispensations Licences Suspensions Excommunications c. practised mainteined and yeelded vnto by your Church Ministers and people framed also according to the image and fashion of the Romish Apostasy Which your selves confesse to be that Beast spoken of in the Revelation 6. Together with these remember also the particulars which I noted before concerning this point Pag. 22. 31. 60. 63. 73. 94. 103. 114. 122. 126. 129. 133. In which places you may mynd divers the like with further proof thereof And so for the present let this suffice till we see what your next Reply can bring against it The Scriptures alledged against you what man of conscience knowing your estate durst ever open his mouth to say they were abused or misapplyed When the Corinthians did but neglect to excommunicate one wicked man from among them the Apostle fitlie alledged this saying A little leaven leaveneth the whole lumpe 1 Cor. 5.6 How is it then abused when we applie it to your estate which swarmeth with so manie knowen wicked men and yet hath not the power of Christ to cast out any one from among you That I say nothing of the other infinite corruptions among you towched before Pag. 63. c. But in deed if these Scriptures be in anie respect not fitlie applyed it is in this that your corruptioÌ„s are so many and so abominable as you had need of far sharper corasives and other more deadfull sentences of Scripture to be applyed to your estate Such as these be If any man worship the Beast and his image and receive his marke in his forhead or on his hand the same shall drink of the vvine of the vvrath of God c. Rev. 14.9.10.11 They that receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved God vvill send them strong delusion to beleeve lyes that they may be damned c. 2 Thes 2.10 11.12 He that obeyeth not the Sonne shall not see life but the vvrath of God abideth on him Ioh. 3.36 To them that are contentious and disobey the truth and obey vnrighteousnes shal be indignation and vvrath tribulation and anguish vpon the soule of every man that doth evill Rom. 2.8.9 Those myne ennemyes saith Christ vvhich vvould not that I should reigne over them bring hither and slay them before me Luk. 19.27 I protest to every man that heareth the vvords of this book if any man shall adde vnto these things God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are writteÌ„ in this book And if any man shall diminish of the words of the book of this prophecy God shall take away his part out of the book of life c. Rev. 22.18.19 And marke these clauses well If any man vvorship If any man adde If any man take away The soule of every man I protest to every man c. None is excepted Let everie man therefore mynd your estate betymes to deliver his soule from the fierce wrath of God Your estate I say wherein there are so manie things added and so manie things taken away from the ordinance of Christ And those also marks of the Beast even a multitude of abominations derived from Antichrist that sonne of perdition And will you yet perswade men that this is but some taint of evill in a Christian Can you put no difference between the sinnes and infirmityes of Christians walking in the faith and the impietyes of Antichrist and doctrines of Divels making departure from it Know you not that even †Luk. 22.24 Rom. 7.23 Gal. 2.11.12.13.14 Iam. 3 2. 1 Ioh. 1.8.10 the Apostles themselves were subiect to the former and yet were wholy free from the latter Or are you growen so presumptuous against the holy Ghost as what it directlie teacheth to be * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3 doctrines of Divels fornications and abominations of the vvhore of Babylon Apostasy of Antichrist the man of sinne that you dare say is but as the taint of evill in a ChristiaÌ„ Belike you would have vs see this very Prophecy fulfilled in your self viz that you are led vvith the Spirit of error and have your conscience seared vvith an hote iron 1 Tim. 4.1.2 Otherwise how could you thus lewdly speak lyes in hypocrisy if you were guided by the spirit of truth and made any conscience of that you say But yet further to shew that you have gotten the very habit of falshood you shame not to call that a vvicked sclaunder which all the world may see is most true For proof whereof compare but your Replyes here with the Iesuites Notes vpon 1 Tim. 4. Thus they write Rhem. Teâ—â— on 1 Tim. 4. first in their marginall notes We see plainly by these vvords such abstinence onely to be disallovved as condemneth the creatures of God to be naught by nature and creation Then in their Annotations following they labour to prove that here the Apostle speaketh of the Manichees Encratites Marcionists c. Towching whom they say They thought that Mariage vvas of Sathan and coÌ„demned divers creatures as things by nature and creation polluted and abominable And then they adde Lo these vvere the Hereticks and their heresyes vvhich S. Paul here prophecyeth of that forbid mariage and meats as you have heard c. These are their owne words And thus they labour in vaine as D. Fulk in his aunswer tels them to post over the crime from themselves to the old Hereticks vvho vvith as good reason might post it of from one to another the Manichees to the Tacianists and the Tacianists to the Manichees c. Now let the Reader well mynd your Replyes in this place and compare them with this dealing of the Papists and then let him judge how you are sclandered with a matter of truth when I sayd you runne into the Papists tents and fight vvith their vveapons to shift of the evidence of this Scripture against you by posting it over from your selves to the Hereticks of old Martion Tatianus c. But
cause also it may be you were the more willing to passe by them being in deed afrayd and vnable to deale with them But to let this passe let others now iudge by that which hath ben said on whom the sclaunder lyeth And note you by the way that it is the common woont of sclaunderers to impute that to others vnder some pretence or other which in very deed they do themselves yea and that often with an impudent forehead Of vour vaine distinction of fundamentall errors and of the necessitie which lyeth vpon you to answer the particulars which I obiected about the Papists and your selves I have spoken ‡ here before If it stop not your mouth as I suppose it will yet let it teach you at least to take heed pag. 144. c. that your next Replie be lesse vaine and more pertinent then these former have ben In the last place when all other shifts fayle you would hale in againe to help at a dead lift those good but dead men Mr Cranmer Ridley c. whom you do neuer linne calling vpon as if you would give them no rest till you had brought them vp even from the dead to beare witnesse on your side But I have shewed before so great differēce between your case and theirs as they can not help you at all And now I tell you further as Christ hath said of old Luk. 16.31 If you heare not Moses and the Prophets neyther would you be perswaded though one rose frō the dead againe All these things considered I hope in your next you will either by the word of God iustify that you depart not from the faith in your leitourgy Hierarchy confusion of people forbidding of Meats and Mariage persecuon of the truth c. or els yeeld that in such estate you do in deed depart frō the faith and therefore cannot therein by the word of God be estemed true Christians Chap 14. The Eight Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumptiō afoersaid Fr. Iohnson IF the Apostle account them denyers of the faith and worse then Infidels and consequently no true Christians who though they doe hold other truthes of the Gospell yet provide not for their household Then how are such to be accounted who though they professe some truthes of the Gospell yet are not true worshippers of God but execute or submit vnto a false Ministery vvorship governement ecclesiasticall Which to be th' estate of the Ministery and people of the Church of England appeareth as aforesaid in their Canōs Articles Book of Cōmon prayer c. But the first is true 1 Tim. 5.8 Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 8. Reason THis your Eight Reason is thus much viz. Like as it is for a professor not to provide for his houshold so is it to hold the Hierarchy c. But that is to deny the faith and to be worse then an infidell Ergo so are we in England Those very answers to the last Reason do fully and flattly satisfy this also Eyther against the Assumption namely that it is not meant simply of denying the faith nor ‡ I meane Fūdamentally as in the last Reas before I have shewed wholy but in this poinct onely Or els the Proposition as being meant of such as neglect their families against the light of their consciences and the manifest instinct of nature Er. Iohnson his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 8. Reason FOr aunswer of this Reason you refer vs both for Proposition and Assumption to your answer to the last Reason But there I have proved those your aunswers to be vntrue Therefore yet we have no aunswer either to that Reason or this As for your new meaning now and not before noted here in the margent although it help you no more then the other yet tell me in your next where you learned thus to confound things that differ so much one from another For now your Reply to both these Reasons is such as if wholy and fundamentally were all one Or els what have you said But this Mr Iacob is to confound not to distinguish as you pretended before Pag. 135. 142. Men may erre fundamentally in some points of the faith who yet erre not wholy in all Pag. 92. 136. 142. The Papists at this day you confesse †your self do erre fundamentally in some things as in Iustification by works the Popes supremacy the Masse c. Will you therefore say they erre wholy in all Do they not howsoever they erre otherwise yet notwithstanding hold also these and manie other truths viz That there is but one God and three persons in the Godhead That he made heaven and earth and all other things and that of nothing That the Sonne not the Father or holy Ghost took flesh of the Virgin Mary That the bodyes of the dead shall rise againe at the last day c. Likewise for the Corinthians and Galathians of old Pag. 28. 92 of whom also you cōfesse that they erred fundamentally in some points as about the Resurrection Circumcision c Shall we therefore think that they held not anie one point of truth but erred wholy in all The Scripture it self doth witnes the contrary as may be seen throughout the Epistles sent to those Churches How sencelesse then and confused is this your new coyned meaning Towching which I thought to adde thus much here besides that which I spake concerning it in the last Reason before Let the Reader moreover observe that both there and here and in your Reply to the Reason following the power of the truth so prevaileth against you as you cannot but graunt you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery worship and governement ecclesiasticall As appeareth in your Canons book of Common prayer Articles Iniunctiōs persecution c. All which beeing mentioned as proofes thereof in these severall reasons when now they should be defended if you would maintaine your standing behold you are as mute as a fish therein And not that onely but in your Reply to the next Reason following Pag. 156. you graunt that in these things we may and ought to separate from you Which is directlie to yeeld vs the cause Thus soundlie you answer vs and dispute for your selves H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 8. Reason TO this your Eight Reason and defence thereof I aunswer as before if you take the Apostle to meane such neglecters of their houshold as deny the faith not Fundamentally nor against the instinct of nature but only against conuenient Christian providence and no othervvise then I deny your Assumption If the Apostle meane of such as neglect their families against the light of conscience and natures instinct then I deny the Proposition This I say because the Apostle may very well meane both these but in diverse measure and proportion of sinne but then this concerneth not vs Even so as I have said to your former Reason Note also if this were
a true Reason it maketh Maister Cranmer c. denyers of the faith and not true Christians also For maintenance whereof you have here not one poore vvord at all Tovvching that you say we cannot deny but graunt that we departe from and deny the faith in our Ministery I have told you hovv in my ansvver to your 7. Reason Also see my Replyes to your 2. Exception Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 8. Reason NOw that all your shifts fayle you come with Ifs and And 's If the Apostle meane this and If he meane that c. As if the Apostles * words were not playne 1 Tim. 5.8 so as the meaning may easily be discerned of anie that is not wilfullie blynd Read and mynd in all such cases and Scriptures that which is written Prov. 8.9 with Act. 28.26.27 But you say the Apostle may very well meane both such as neglect their houshold against convenient Christian providence and such as do it against the light of conscience and natures instinct If the first then you deny the Assumption that is the Apostles owne saying And thus againe you give the holy Ghost the lye If the latter then you deny the Proposition And then you must prove that thus they do it For who knoweth not that such will not for this case any more then you for yours confesse that they do it against light of conscience c. Nay will they not say as stiflie as you that this concerneth not them And moreover is not that also which is light in one mans conscience often darke in another mans by one meanes or other See it in an example One of your professors in London runneth to all your Sermons and Lectures from place to place throughout the City every day and every houre By this meanes he neglecteth his familie You tell him he doth it against light of conscience and natures instinct He denyes it and saith he doth it not so but as being perswaded in his conscience that he must first seek the kingdome of God and that then all outward things shal be cast to him and his Herevpon in a blynd zeale he doth as aforesaid Now tell me Is not this man notwithstanding within compasse of the Apostles rule here spoken of Yet will he stand against it for his case as stiffe as you for yours yea and alledge for himself more colour and show of Reason then you do or can for your Hierarchy c. So then both the Proposition and Assumption stand firme against you and therefore also the whole Reason Now here againe being loth belike to give them any rest you call for Mr Cranmer c. As if they were your Pages to wayte at your heeles on every call and to serve your turne at every need whether they will or not Never were poore men in all the world I think made such a stale But they serve you accordingly They let you commaund and go without For every where you commaund their names and yet alway go without their fellowship As I have shewed before in particular Pag. 40. 41. Towching your graunt let the Reader note here againe that you yeeld you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery c. You say you have before told vs how But what you have said before is there aunswered and taken away And besides for vs it is sufficient that it is done Look you vnto it how you do it It may be some of you do it of ignorance some of knowledge against the light of your owne consciēces some for feare of men some for love of the world some of contention or vaine glory some for their profit pleasure ease honour quyetnes or the like Thus I deny not but in the maner of doing there may be among you in these respects a divers measure and proportion of sinne But this concerneth not vs but your selves to look vnto and that greatlie Chap. 15. The Ninth Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THey which do otherwise teach and condiscend not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines all such by the rule of the Apostle are to be separated frō and therefore cannot in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 But such is the case of all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their ministery worship and Church constitution As appeareth both by the severall points of their false doctrine * Points of false doctrine els where noted and by the proofes “ Pag. 61. 63. 135. c. here before alledged out of their owne Canons Articles Iniunctions c. Therefore all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their Ministery worship and Church constitution are by the rule of the Apostle to be separated from neither can in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 9. Reason THis your last Reason is Separate from them that teach otherwise then the truth 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 We holding those Articles do teach diverse things in the Hierarchy c. that be otherwise then is truth Therefore we must be separated from and consequently we are no true Christians This is a fallacy also Separate from such Ergo separate wholy See my 1. and 2. Reply afore to the third Exception also the Aunswer to the two last Reasons of all the 7. and 8. We graunt therefore so farr forth as we hold otherwise then trueth so farr separate from vs but not any farther at all not wholy or absolutly And so the Apostle here meaneth Wherefore briefly Because you prove vs not wholy to deny the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Ievves Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 Therefore you ought not vvholy to separate from vs Neither to condemne vs vvholy as abolished from Christ no more then Maister Cranmer Ridley were vvith their Congregations in King Edwards tyme. And thus our Assumption in the beginning standeth firme The doctrine in the booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian. Cōclusion The contrary vvhereof is such a Paradox as hath not ben heard of till this day All reformed Churches in Europe doe and have alvvayes held othervvise Themselves †M. Barrow Mr. Penry Mr. Iohnson heretofore have acknovvledged and professed it The holy Martyrs that lived in King Edvvards dayes and dyed in Queene Maries dayes must be othervvise cut of from Christ vvho vvere true Christians by vertue of this doctrine and the practise thereof or verily not at all But now it is vvonder vvhat extreame passion hath driven them to this denyall Surely they see that it conuinceth flatly as indeed it doth their peremptory separation And therefore rather then they vvould
seem to have erred in so mayne a poinct vve cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driven them to it Neverthelesse all this vve leave to the Lord vvith the iudgement thereof vvho hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the secrets but also to turne and dispose them even as it pleaseth him Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 9. Reason TO this Reason you answer It is a fallacy Separate from such Ergo separate vvholy But how shew you any fallacy therein You bid vs see your Replyes to the third Exception and tvvo last Reasons of all Well we have seen them and finde nothing there but against your self as hath ben shewed So this Reason and the rest stand still vnanswered and strong against you And that we may not doubt but your self also see it howsoever you seem to plead the contrary before therefore now you graunt it and so yeeld the cause both in expresse words and by not defending the points of false doctrine wherewith you were charged neyther your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. In expresse words when you say you graunt that so farr foorth as you hold othervvise then trueth so far vve may and ought to separate from you Loe here what the evidence of the truth against which you have strugled so long hath now at length drawen from you The trueth is mighty and prevaileth But you adde that vve must not separate from you any further then as before not wholy or absolutly and so say you the Apostle “ here meaneth 1 Tim. 6.3 ◠First of all let vs know what your self meane hereby If you meane that we must not for your other defection forsake the trueths which you hold I aunswer that we doe it not and this your self know well ynough And in this sence your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles You say your selves you have separated from the Papists yet you neither can nor will say that you have forsaken the truthes which the Papists hold As that there is a God that there be three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Saviour of the world that God made heaven and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust c. But if you meane that because of the truthes which you professe therefore we should not separate from you then first you contradict your self having graunted that we must separate from you so farr foorth as you hold otherwise then trueth Secondlie you condemne your owne practise in your separation from the Papists notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdlie in this sence also your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore is evident both that there is no fallacy in the Reason but that it is playne and forceable against you And that you have directlie in expresse words given vs the cause See the particulars before Pag. 63 c. and acknowledged our separation to be lawfull from your * Ministery worship Assemblies c. because in these you hold otherwise then truth And as in expresse words you yeeld it so in deed you shew it in that you leave without all defēce as vnlawfull and to be separated from your Ministery worship Church-governement Doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularlie in the First and Second Reasons before which thing we wish the Reader well to observe And because we are fallen againe into mention of your false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of your dealing and insufficiencie of all your answers therefore it shall not be yrkesome to set downe here some such poincts of false doctrine as heretofore have ben obiected against you They are as followeth 1. That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacraments yet neyther the Sacramentes False doctrine in the Church of England and in the defenders thereof nor the people that ioine with them are defiled therby Which doctrine is contrary to the trueth of God in these Scriptures 1 Cor. 10.17 Hag. 2.14.15 1 Cor. 5.6 10.28 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18.19 Exod. 12.43 Levit. 15.4.5.6.7.31 11.24 13.45.46 19.7 Num. 5.2.3 19.21.22 Iosua 7.11.12 c. Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2. That the planting or reforming of Christs Church must tarrie for the Civill Magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word and spirit of God in the testimony of his servantes except they have authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat. 28.18.20 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1.27 Psal 2.6.9.10.12 Esa 9.6.7 Zach. 4.6 6.12.13 Dan. 2.44 7.27 9.25 Mich. 5.7 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6.12 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Rev. 1.5 12.11 14.12 17.14 19.16 20.4 3. That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated company of righteous men and women from the Idolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good and bad Which doctrine is cōtrary to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 vvith 6.2 Exod. 4.22.23 Levit. 10.10 20.24.25.26 Psal 24.3.4 Ezra 6.21 2. Chron. 11.13.16 Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10.12 Act. 2.40.41.42 19.9 Rom. 12.1.8 2 Cor. 6.17.18 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 14.9.12 18.4 21.27 and 22.14.15 c. 4. To mainteine this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they pervert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church and that they may be retained and communicated withall in the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Saviours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant the world in which his Church is militant here on earth And as therein there is the good seed the righteous the Children of the Kingdome so there are also tares hypocrites the children of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous servauntes of God and being discovered are here cast out of the Church in the Name and by the power of Iesus Christ so shall they in that great day be perfectlie severed from the godly by the Angels howsoever here in the meane tyme making profession of the truth and having a show of godlines they be suffred to grow together with the good seed and be with the vpright of heart reputed mēbers of the Church on earth Note also that the Church because it is the Temple House kingdome of God on earth wherein he dwelleth by his spirit and ruleth by the scepter of his word as also the gate of heaven through which he bringeth vs into his kingdome of glory after this life is therefore by Christ in this place called the Kingdome of heaven though yet it
prosperitie in the world yet the godly notwithstanding must learne neither to fret at them nor to faint in themselues but alway to walk faithfullie in the truth and to waite patientlie on the Lord looking for the great harvest of the world At which tyme God will for ever free his people from them all both casting the wicked into a furnace of vnquenchable fyer and making the righteous to shine as the sunne in the kingdome of their Father Mat. 13 37-43 compared with ver 47-50 Rev. 2 20.-26 7 14-17 10.7 11 15-19 14 14-20 17-22 chap. and with the other Scriptures noted before Pag. 158. 159. 173. The second is that besides the false doctrines mentioned before Pag. 157. 158. 159. 160. your Church hath also manie mo Some whereof I have noted in * another Treatise A treatise of the Minist of Engl. pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. to which I refer you for them So as if your list and leysure will serve in your next Reply you may let vs have your defence of them also Or els provide Mr Iacob that you chaunge the Title of your book and call it not anie longer A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND MINISTERY OF ENGLAND Now to proceed there followeth next the comparison between you and the Iewes from whom Paul separated Act. 19.9 Act. 19. To which you can not replie a word to anie one thing I aunswered Onelie you bring some new exceptions but not anie of them all worth a rush You might aswell except that Paul was an Apostle and a Iew we not that the people he dealt withall were in Asia you in Europe they at Ephesus you at London c. Such pretences as they are verie common among you so are they most absurd and frivolous not worthy the hearing or anie refutation at all Onelie note that the very Papists themselves may likewise alledge against anie that witnes the truth vnto them yea and do they not dailie thus pretend as you do viz that they be infinitely many mo then Paul had there to do withall 2. That Paul was better able to convince them c. then any such are the whole Popish Church 3. That there be many learned among them which have many probable and seeming reasons c. Where you say there be some of you that have published some reasons for the Prelacy against vs and are vnanswered it is most false Name but one Reason if you can to which we have not given aunswer to the stopping of all your mouths But in deed Mr Iacob you and your fellowes have let the * the Prelates and their proctours insult over you Bancroft Bilson Sutcliff c. with book vpon book and yet aunswer not a word You that ere while cryed out so earnestlie against dumbe dogs are now become dumbe your selves not moving the tounge against anie that writeth for the Hierarchy and leitourgy of Antichrist retained among you But to leave this to your selves to be better mynded hereafter tell me now if it were anie thing to the purpose though that you say here were true By your owne confession the Reasons which are published against vs are but probable and seeming not true and vndoubted And this also seeming so but to you not to vs. What matter then though they were never aunswered by vs Where you aske What if these speak evill of that which we hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme We aske againe Do not the Papists also say so vnto you Yea and did not the Iewes think you say so vnto Paul Why then are you so partiall against vs But for vs it skils not what you or they think of our cause vnles you speak according to the Law and testimony of God which is far from you Let the Reader also note here the maner of your speach You say that which we hold for truth they hold to be errors schisme They say you as speaking of others not of your self You belike do not so hold it as they do but are perswaded it is truth and not error Why then do you not obey and practise it Why are you become our ennemy for bearing witnes vnto it Why are you so partiall against vs in it Towching the estate of the Iewes Church I shewed three reasons why the Apostles neither did nor might wholy separate from them at first Against which you are not able to open your mouth Pag. 161. Petitio principii whereof you speak is the summe of all your Replies Shew otherwise if you can Do you not everie where beg and no where prove that you are separated from the world set in the way of Christ free from the defection of Antichrist c. So your self are guiltie of that wherewith you charge me falslie all that you say being nothing els but to beg the question and deny the Conclusion As for your short writing about the cōparisō of your Ministery with Mariage I did answer it * above three yeares since But you have not yet replied againe neither I think will in hast In the yeare 1596. When you first acquainted me with the purpose of publishing these things you know besides other things then spoken of I did in particular desier you to publish that aunswer of myne with the rest Therefore you have done me the greater wrong both in leaving it vnprinted and much more in giving out that I have not aunswered you these whole three yeares together and vpward But I perceive you will have your book sutable one part with another and therefore you will end as you ‡ began that is Pag. 5. with lies and vntruths Of that which you annexe of the Iewes Church in Christs tyme and after and of separation from them and communion with them I have alreadie spoken sufficientlie Pag. 161. Neither can you with anie Reason denie or stand against anie thing I have there said as I noted before Tell vs yet I pray you when and how that full experience of obstinate and malitious resistance of the truth whereof you speak may be had and discerned in anie either Ministers or people For your selves you cannot deny but this is your case that you resist and refuse the truth many times and sundrie wayes witnessed vnto you that you rayle and speake evill both of it and of vs that professe it that you persist in the errors and defection of Antichrist that you bereave vs of our lives libertie goods countrie c. And all these because we will not runne with you to the same excesse of impietie Now seing this is the case as your self I think will not denie of your Prelates and manie other of your Priests and people and seing all the rest of you stand with them in one bodie and estate of a Church cleaving vnto them in the same way worship Ministerie c. therefore even in this behalfe can we not possiblie separate from some of you but we must needs
ecclesiasticall offices 2. the maner of calling vnto the offices 3. a great part of the works wherein these false offices are imployed 4. the maintenance or livings whereby they are maynteined in their offices All which I will be bound to prove by the Lords help to be derived not from Iesus Christ but from the kingdome of Antichrist his great enemy And therefore forasmuch as I can not be partaker of the former holy things of God but I must be subiect vnto the power of Antichrist in these officers and knowen by those marks whereby his subiects are noted therefore I am enforced bound to seek the comfort of the word and Sacraments where I may have them without the submitting of my self vnto any ecclesiasticall power in Religion save onely vnto that which is derived from Christ Iesus the Lord in whom all fulnes of power dwelleth Col. 1.19 and from whom all those must derive their power and office vnto whom the Saincts of God are to submit their consciences to be wrought vpon in Religion Againe seing the aforenamed 4. enormityes of this Church are marks which properly belong vnto the Kingdome of the Beast that is the Romane Antichrist we dare not have any communion and fellowship with them nor be knowen by them least we shovld be partakers of those most fearfull most dreadfull iudgements which are denounced by the Spirit of God against all those that have communion with any of the irreligious inventions of the Beast Rev. 14.9.10 These are the things together with the want of Christs true order which I especially mislike and the speciall causes why I dare not ioyne with the Assemblyes of this Land c. Thus was his aunswer In which you may see how he professeth your Church offices and estate to be such as he dare not ioine therewith both because they are not derived from CHRist IEsus the LOrd of his Church and for that they belong to the kingdome and body of Antichrist and are marks of that Beast against which and all that partake therewith God hath denounced most fearfull iudgements in his word Vnto these most playne declarations of his mynd I might adde many mo out of his letters and other writings But what needeth it whenas the laying downe of his life in testimony against the Antichristian estate of your Church is and will be alway as a thousand witnesses against you whatsoever you pretend otherwise And now Mr Iacob let me vpon this occasion aske you this question whether you think Mr Barrow Mr Greenwood Mr Penry c. dyed Martyrs and witnesses of the truth against your Antichristian estate or whether you account them evill doers iustlie deserving to be put to death The thing is a publik actiō and cōcerneth the publik state of your Church which you would seem to defend Therefore is it needfull that you declare your mynd fullie and plainlie therein which yet I think you will be loth to do You love so to walke in darkenes and yet would seem to defend your Church when in deed you do nothing lesse Next you alledge myne owne acknowledgement to Mr Philips and your self for the approbation of your estate Of which being also obiected before I have spoken already Pag. 41. To it therefore I refer you Yet before I end this point I will note here three things more for the Reader to observe The first is towching Mr Barrow Mr Penry and my self that seing you spare not to wrest our words whose meaning all men know and our owne practise proclaymeth we can not therefore look for any other at your hands but that you will much more pervert the Scriptures and word of God about the meaning whereof men make so manie doubts and controversyes from tyme to tyme. The second is towching your owne words in these Replyes That whereas in the Conclusion of your first Reply Pag. 156. you sayd we our selves acknowledged your Assumption to be true now in the Conclusion of your second Reply Pag. 167. you chaunge your owne words and say we acknowledged your publik doctrine would and did make many of you true Christians By which you cleare vs and contradict your self For if your Assumption were true then not onelie many but all and every member of your Church should thereby be deemed true Christians as towching their outward estate even all your Prelates Priests Dumbe dogs Non-residents Thieves Coniurers c. Which you may speak with shame ynough Sure I am none of vs did ever acknowledge it and I trust never shall The third is concerning some things spoken to me in the presence of others at one tyme by Mr Philips whom here you name and at another tyme by your self Of Mr Philips when once he had speach with me about our cause I asked If her Maiesty should permit both that way wherein the Prelates and you now are and the way wherein we are to be free for all men to walke in eyther of them as they should be perswaded In which of the two then he would walke himself as being perswaded it was the truth of God Wherevnto he aunswered that then he thought he should walke in the way wherein we are Of your self also among other things once I asked this Whether you were so mynded for the Ministery which Christ hath appointed in his Church as you thought you ought and would dy for it God assisting you To which you answered Yea. Therevpon presentlie I asked agayne Whether you were so mynded for the Ministery of the CHurch of ENgland as you thought you ought would also dy for it To which you answered No. If now Mr Iacob I would presse conclusions out of Mr Philips words and your owne as you do out of myne and others might I not gather from your selves far better then you do or can anie thing from vs that in your consciences you see your Churches estate and Ministery to be vnlawfull and none of Christs at all But I spare you The Martyrs whom next you alledge I shewed to be against you by their owne testimony Vnto this you answer That it maketh stronger against vs seing although they misliked the Hierarchy yet they themselves refused not to communicate and partake with them then as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. But are you in deed so simple as not to perceyve that this is of no moment at all What if the Papists should so answer when we bring against them the testimonie of the auncient Martyrs towching the Masse the Hierarchy Auricular confession and other corruptions of that Church Or are you ignorant that * See before Pag. 44.45 Iohn Hus Iohn wickleffe William Swinderby and manie other of the Martyrs in elder tyme did in these things communicate with the Popish Church vnto their dying day If this aunswer then be frivolous for them in such case how should it not be likewise in yours Besides that you may by this reasō perswade aswell to communicate with the Popish
that I might keep thy word Psal 119.57.59.60.101 Let him that readeth consider AN ANSWER TO MAISTER H. IACOB HIS TREATISE Concerning the PRIESTES of the Church of England Made by the PRAELATES Accepted and ioyned vnto by the people Which he termeth A PASTORALL CALLING By Francis Iohnson an exile for the testimony of IESVS Put your selves in aray againâ—t Babel round about all ye that bend the bow shooe as her spare no arrowes for she hath sinned against the Lord. Ier. 50.14 They shall not take of thee a stone for a corner nor a stone for foundation but thou shal s be a perpetuall desolation saith the Lord. Ier. 51.26 1600. Mr IACOB his Argument by which he would prove the Priests made by Prelates to be the Pastors ordeined by Christ Taken froÌ„ a comparison of Mariage Which he falsely faith is gathered out of our owne confessions Together with the Answer to it to his Reply thereabout CHAP. 1. The Argument of his Comparison as it is now propounded is this AS a couple of ignorant people not contracting but meaning to marry yet thinking that vnlesse a Priest marry them their mariage is nothing whereas in deed their publique accepting each of other maketh the mariage Now being married though “ “ As themselves bold vnlavvfully by a Priest yet their mariage is true lawfull notwithstanding EVen so a Christian people meaning to have a sufficient man to their Pastor yet thinking that vnlesse a Prelate doe make him he is no Pastor at all neither can be theirs Notwithstanding he being made a Pastor though “ “ As they also do acknowledge vnlawfully by the Prelate yet by rheir mutuall accepting and ioyning together he is now verely a Pastor yea their Pastor true and lawfull H. IACOB Fran. Iohnson his Aunswer THe Reader is to know that Mr Iacob did at first propound this coÌ„parison far otherwise Which synce being aunswered so as he could not defend it againe he hath now chaunged and propounded it with some other termes then before trying belike if he can any way help himself or his cause Now although both his first and last be alike in this that neither of them are of any moment yet because the former aunswer here following was made vnto the coÌ„parisoÌ„ as it was first propounded which Mr Iacob concealeth and to the end the Reader may see what chaunge he hath made therein I will here also set it downe as himself did propound it at the first Which was thus As a couple of ignorant persons that are contracted together do think that vnles the Priest marry them Mr H. Iacob his Comparison as it was first propoÌ„ded aunswered their mariage is nothing whereas in truth the contract maketh the marriage yet being married though vnlawfully by a Priest their marringe is notwithstanding lawfull So the ignorant people that have made choyse of a Minister do think vnles the Bishop make him a Minister he is no Minister whereas in deed their choise made him a Minister yet being made Minister though vnlawfully by a Bishop his Ministery is notwithstanding lawfull Thus did Mr Iacob at first make his comparison In which and the change thereof let the Reader observe and Mr Iacob answer these things following 1. That before in the Proposition or first part of the comparison he spake of persons contracted together now of persons not contracted 2. That in the Reddition or latter part he spake of ignorant people now of Christians Before of ignorant people that had made choise of a Minister now of ChristiaÌ„ people inteÌ„ding to choose or meaning to have a Pastor 3. That he spake before of any man generallie for a Minister now particularlie of a sufficient man for a Pastor Then of a supposed lawfull Ministery received afore the Prelates do vnlawfully make them now of this vnlawfull one received afore the other Then of the peoples choyse first had now of their mutuall accepting and ioining together afterward 4. That thus chaunging the termes of the Comparison his aunswer therefore to the ‡ Reasons first brought against it * The ReasoÌ„s were 7. hereafter set down is even in this respect indirect and insufficient besides that it is otherwise most weak and friuolous Of which more hereafter 5. Where now he speaketh of sufficient men for Pastors set him tell vs plainlie what he thinketh of their Dumbe Ministers and of the rest among them othewise vnmeet and insufficient viz Whether the Dumbe Ministers and Formalists have not the same calling of the Prelates that the other have 6. Whether they have not like and many of them greater acceptance of the people then those he speaketh of have 7. Whether they therefore being thus ordeined of the Prelates and accepted of the people are by the word of God true and lawfull Pastors to whose guyding men may commit their soules and ioine to their publik Ministery 8. Whether their Churches as they stand have power to choose to themselves their Ministers so as being chosen by them they are by the Lawes of their Church their lawfull Ministers 9. How it is possible that any should hold mariage by a Priest vnlawfull and yet think that vnles they be so married their mariage is nothing And againe to hold the Prelates making of Ministers to be vnlawfull and yet to think that vnles the Prelates do so make them they are no Pastors at all neither can be theirs What straunge contradictions be here Is it possible that these things can stand together Or can they ever be reconciled vnlesse Mr Iacob think their people be so mad as to hold that no lawfull Mariage or Ministerie can be had but by vnlawfull meanes And consequently that whosoever will marry or become Ministers must needs sinne against God Yea so as they know and hold it before they do it and therefore also sinne against their owne conscience Pag. 186. For thus much do “ his Marginall notes sayd togeather with the wordes of his Comparison necessarilie import And what a divelish doctrine also is this 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 10. Whether the Offices and functions of the Prelates he speaketh of be not amoÌ„g them as the Apostle fortold exalted above and opposed against the holy things and offices of the Lord Iesus Yea Whether those very words of the Apostle 2 Thes 2.4 thus describing the Man of sinne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is set against life vp above all that is called God or “ Or appertaining to diuine vvorship As the same word is vsed Act. 17.23 holy do not most directly as it were with the finger point out that Antichristian Prelacy And here to speake of it by the way let the Reader mynd how wonderfully God hath disposed that they should by themselves in their Statutes speaches writings be called by this name and title of Prelates which is the very English of the Greek word vsed by the Apostle when he describeth Antichrist The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is exalted above lifted vp set before or as we vsually speak Prelate 2. Thes 2.4 11. How it can be then that Pastors should be made by the Prelates as here he taketh for graunted Men surelie do not gather grapes of thornes nor figs of thistles Neither hath the throne of iniquitie which forgeth wrong for a Law fellowship with the Lord. And whatsoever be preteÌ„ded to the contrary certaine it is that Christ and Antichrist cannot accord together Mat. 7.16 Psal 94.20 2 Cor. 6.14.15 To the end therefore that the Reader may better perceive Mr Iacobs corrupt dealing it will not be amisse brieflie to note here out of their owne Pontificall and practise how the Ministers he speaketh of are made by the Prelates 1. First they are made Deacons or half Priests whose duty is to read the book of Common prayer and Homilyes to minister Baptisme to assist the Priest at divine service and if he have the Prelates licence to preach withall 2. Then after a yeares service in that Deaconship or such tyme as pleaseth the Ordinary comming to be made full Priests they are preseÌ„ted to the Lordbishop or his Suffragane by an ArchdeacoÌ„ or his deputy saying Note this Point of blasphemy For now Christ alone hath the Ministery of Priesthood that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is such as can not passe froÌ„ him vnto another Heb. 7.23.24 Reverend father in God I present these persons present to be admitted to the Order of Priesthood 3 The Prelate then saith to such as be there be they his Serving meÌ„ or any other that happen to come that way Good people these be they whom we purpose God willing to receive this day vnto the holy Office of Priesthood c. 4. None of them shewing anie impediment to the contrary the Clerks and people present say or sing the Letany c. And the Prelate readeth over a number of Collects and stinted prayers taken out of the Popes poÌ„tificall with an exhortation an Epistle and Gospell wherein they abuse and pervert the Scripture 5. The Prelate demaundeth of them thus Do you think in your heart that you be truly called according to the will of our Lord Iesus Christ and the order of this Church of EnglaÌ„d to the * Ministery of Priesthood And the partyes to be ordeined then aunswer every one for himself I think it 6. After other questions and aunswers about the sufficiency of the Scriptures c. wherein they condemne themselves the Prelate asketh if they will reverently obey their Ordinary and other chief Ministers of the Church that is the Lordbishop of the Dioces where they live the Archbishop Archdeacon Chauncelor Commissary and the rest of that Antichristian Hierarchy They make aunswer againe every one of them saying I will so do the Lord being my helper 7. Then the Bishop readeth a prayer for them that they may have strength and power to performe the same and desireth the congregation secretly in their prayers to make humble supplications to God for the foresaid things For the which prayers there is a certayne space kept in silence Note this mystery 8. After a while the Prelate prayeth againe in such wise as is set downe vnto him in the book being not able belike otherwise to coÌ„ceive any prayer himself 9. When this is done the Prelate with the Priests present lay their hands severallie vpon the head of every one that receiveth orders the receivers humblie kneeling vpon their knees and the Prelate saying vnto them * Note here againe blasphemy Receyve the holy Ghost whose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven and whose sinnes thou doest retaine they are retained c. 10. Then is sung the Creed and they go to the communion they that received orders being appointed to tary and receive the communion with the Bishop the same day and remaining in the †Well fare all good tokens same place where the hands were laid vpon them c. So testifying that they are of the same faith and body with the Prelates who are knowen to be notable persecuters of the truth and very Antichrists themselves 11. Now being thus made Priests and yet I omit many like things that might be noted out of their Book and practise for it were endles to recount all they pay for their letters of orders Which they must also have in a readines at all tymes to shew whensoever there shall be occasion for better assurance that they have received the Beasts mark And if now they be to enter vpon a benefice or whensoever that day cometh for which they are now prepared to day afore to morrow then there is yet further required that they have the presentation of the Patrone who perhaps is a Papist or an Atheist or a child or the like and the institution of the Lord-bishop who without question is an Antichrist Ephes 4.5 1 Cor. 12. â—5 with 1 Pet. 2.25 5.3.4 The true Church hath but * one Lordbishop the Lord Iesus Christ All other Lordbishops are Antichrists 12. Lastly being thus ordered presented instituted and having sworne Canonicall obedience to the Prelates now whether the people will or not they are and must be their Priests and have charge of their soules And both themselves their Ministery and people remaine subiect to the Prelates and to their Antichristian courts power jurisdiction c. This is the case of all the Priests even of them that have the most and best acceptance of the people whereof he speaketh And would any now have thought that the Prelates making and the peoples accepting of Priests being such Mr Iacob would be so sencelesse as to perswade that these are true and lawfull Pastors Might he not aswell tell vs that a cleane thing may be brought out of filthines yea that Christ may be made to agree with Antichrist Which both Scripture and experieÌ„ce teacheth can never be Iob. 14.4 2 Cor. 6.15 Eyther therefore let him make the tree good Mat. 12.33 and his fruit good or els make the tree evill and his fruit evill If the Prelates and their functions be Antichristian and were never but nought then such must needs be the Ministery derived and received from them But so it is with the Prelates even himself being witnes who both yeelded it * Pag. 92. before And here agayne in playne termes confesseth that the calling received from them is vnlawfull By this it is too evident that the light of the truth shineth in his coÌ„scieÌ„ce howsoever he strive against it Therefore will I not now further vrge it hoping that himself in tyme will better mynd it In the meane tyme let the Reader note it And withall that this calling by the Prelates which he yeeldeth to be vnlawfull is the onely calling which by Law is ratifyed and allowed in that Church And doth not Mr Iacob then whiles he saith notwithstanding they are true and lawfull Pastors speak riddles and contradict himself These things
tyme and after as †Beza in Acts 15.20 some thinke even till their Temple and Citie were destroyed though they did personally hate and persecute Christ Such also was the sinne of the auncient declyning Bishops Cyprian Epiphanius Augustine Chrisostome Leo of Rome c. No lesse was in ours of late Cranmer Ridly Hooper c. in King Edwards dayes and no greater is now in ours presently especially towching our Churches Ministers too generally If you say we are all convicted now and sinne against our owne consciences as they did not in those tymes It is vtterly false and a palpable vntruth Whosoever knoweth any thing in our Church estate generally must needs see it that this poinct towching the Hyerarchy is not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one many holding and not of the simplest this present governement to be th' only true and right kinde but all men almost to be indifferent and lawfull very few indeed and scarce to be found that see it to be meerly nought or as you terme it wicked intolerable And in king Edwards tyme whosoever considereth shall finde H. Iâ— that the godly learned Protestans then were not vtterly ignorant of this point of reformation and yet sinned not against their conscience in bearing with the tymes neither were abolished from Christ And surelie towching the Iewes they were all generally more convicted then that Iesus vvas the Christ then vve are now that the Prelacy is of Antichrist yet they remayned a Church still because generally indeed they vvere not plainly conuicted Thus then this our sinne is * see the 2. sortes of fundamentall sinnes in the 2. Reply to your yâ—â—â—eason before Pag. 142 Fr. Io. See the aunswer thereto in the same treatise Pag 144.147 no way fundamentall it destroyeth not faith Christianity in our vvhole assemblies Therefore they remaine Christian people still as I affirmed not all godles prophane as you vncharitably speak O beware of rash hasty iudging even of one brother Rom. 14.3.4.13 how much more of such anb so many whole assemblies professing Christ in England Woe be vnto him which curseth where God curseth not Num. 23.8 As also indeed that blesseth where God blesseth not We desire you not to blesse vs in our evill but we vvarne you not to curse vs in our good vvhich indeed turneth vs not to any furtherance but to a great hinderance and stumbling block stopping vs from that syncerity vvhich els vve should dravve nearer vnto Blessed is he that iudgeth vvisely that is vvithout affection and partialitie even of him that is despised Better it is and more Christianlike even to offend in too much compassion and patience especially tovvardes so many hundreth thousands by vvhom vve knovv nought saue good in this poinct then to offend in too much rigor and severity and vniust anger Mat. 5.22 Hovvbeit this vvere not indeed to offend as hath ben above shevved And briefly in twoo vvords thus I conclude it farther that That faith and religion taught in the booke of Articles published 1562. maketh the people that beleeve and obey the same true Christians such as so living dying may be saved But our Church doeth so holde that faith Therefore they are true Christians The Proposition onely is doubted I had thought none so desperate as to deny it but lately I vnderstand you haue denyed it Hovvbeit for ansvver I referre you partly to that vvhich here hath bene said before especiallie to that vvhich is replyed to your Answer in the former Treatise which being well weighed I doubt not but all indifferent Christian mindes will acknowledge our publique Church assemblies in England to be true Christians Fran. Iohnson his Aunsvver YOu have now ten tymes reproched me and are not ashamed Whatsoever your self or others do think of your Churches estate God forbid that I should eyther iustify it or take away myne owne innocency in witnessing the truth against it Heare therefore and I will aunswer you once againe I will open my mouth for the truth against him that pleadeth for Baal The strength of the Reason standeth not as you ignorantlie suppose in the truth or falshood of the particulars you mention but in this that it is not so vvith choyse of Ministers in the Church as it is vvith choyse of parties in mariage For Infidels Idolaters godles persons c. may in that estate marry togeather but they are not in that estate capable of choosing and ioyning to a true Minister And therefore your Comparison doth not hold Yet the particulars do all of them availe much against you whatsoever you pretend to the contrary The first is directlie to the question For although now having seen my aunswer you speak of Christian people yet your comparison which was given me to aunswer spake at first of ignorant persons and those also such as might marry togeather Now you cannot deny but ignorant persons be they never so prophane and godles may marry one with another Yet have they not power in such case to chuse a Minister It is your self then that keep not the point but chop and chaunge the termes of your Argument as you think may best fit your turne And yet all this chaunging of your hew will avayle you nothing at all vnles you could prove 1. That your people in that Church-constitution are true Christians 2. That your Ministers so made and received are true Pastors But neither of these can you do For the first let the Reader see the former treatise where this point is purposelie handled And mynd here that your self confesse some of your Assemblies are all and wholy prophane godles persons Of which you say you speak not Yet tell vs whether you think such Assemblies be true Churches such people true Christians and their Ministers hauing like ordering of the Prelates and acceptance of the people true Pastors or not For the latter this is the treatise and place where you should prove it if you could But behold you do nothing lesse In the Comparison Pag 186. Nay even here you yeeld that your calling received from the Prelates is vnlawfull Yet this is the onelie maner of calling that your Church constitution appointeth That which you speak of your Assemlies not being all and wholy profane and godles persons is nothing to the purpose You might easilie have seen if you had mynded the words of my Reason that I sayd expresselie your Assemblies consist of all sorts of people that is some better some worse Yet seing the best among you remaine in confusion with the worst and all of you in bondage to Antichrist that even for this cause also you can not in that estate be deemed true Churches having power to chuse such Officers as Christ hath appointed for his Church And where you say whole companyes of Christians are not by such commixtures made vnholy prophane and godles it is wholy from the questioÌ„ The point is not
sinnes not to rest in any of his vnrighteousnes neyther to towch any vncleane thing at all 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4.5.6 Isa 52.11 2 Cor. 6.17 Yea in that very * Iudg. 2.3 Scripture which is here quoted by himself the Angel of the Lord joyneth with thorne to their sides destruction by there Gods that is by their worship and religion But they hope God vvill in tyme abolish them And so do we have too Yet we must remember that the Scripture sayth this abolition of them shal be by the Spirit of the Lords mouth a I 〈◊〉 of his Gospell in the testimony of his servants 2 Thes 2 8. Rev. 12.11 14.6.7.8.12 It is not then the yeelding vnto them but the witnessing against them by which we can hope it faith for the abolishment of them Neyther do we doubt but they being thus discovered God will also stirre vp the hearts of Kings and Rulers of the earth as already in part he hath begun to hate that whore of Babylon with her abominations and to make her desolate and naked Rev 17 16. Yet too before they come to do this they have given theyr power and authority to the Beast aÌ„d have also fought but not prevayled against the Lambe Iesus Christ and them that are on his side his called and chosen and faithfull witnesses Rev. 17.13.14 Therefore dare not we runne into theyr extremityes to allow eyther by word or deed the corruptions of Antichrist that Man of sinne to receyve in our forehead or hand the print of his Nauie or marke of his ordinances to pursue to death the witnesses of Christ or any way to approve thereof c. But we wayte the appoynted tyme of the Lord for the full abolition and redresse of all these impietyes And in the meanetyme through the grace of Christ we witnes against them Yet being both thankfull to God for any truth they hold and sory also that with it they joyne the abominations of the Man of sinne and do so set a wall between the Lord and themselues 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 17.5 Ezech. 43.8 Where he sayth they hold most excellent truths and doctrines of salvation as soundly as any Church vpoÌ„ the face of the earth albeit by this it might seem they have very yll neighbours and for so large comparison due proof also may well be desired yet for the present I will but aske how this speach of his agreeth with the testimony of others among them men of far riper iudgement and better discerning who have testifyed of theyr estate and published that * DemoÌ„stration in the Preface to the Reader Albeit many nations vvhich have renounced the vvhore of Rome are heynously sinfull against the glorious Maiesty of Iesus Christ yet there is none in the vvorld so far out of square as is England in retayning the Popish Hierarchy first coyned in the mystery of iniquity and that filthy sinke of the Canon Lavv vvhich vvas first invented and patched together for the confirmation and increasing of the Kingdome of Antichrist Also that with them “ Mr Gilbyes book Pa. 29 many religions are mixed together off Christ and Antichrist of God and the Divell That †Letter to Mr Hooker Pag. 4 vnder the shevv of inveighing against Puritanes the chiefest poynts of Popish blasphemy are many tymes and in many places by divers meâ— not obscurely broached both in Sermons and in VVriting That ♣ 2 Ad non to Parliam Pag 6. although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout great daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth coÌ„prised in the book of God * Ibid. That theyr ovvne Iniunctions Articles Canons c. may not be broken or offended against but vvith more danger then to offend against the Bible That ‡ Ibid. the Bible must haue no further scope then by these it is assigned That * Demonstr in the Prefa to the Gover they give leave to a man to be any thing sauing a sound Christian That †Admon to Parliam Pag 21. theyr publik Baptisme is fâ—ll of childish and superstitious toyes That “ Mr Gibâ—yes book Pag. 2. they eat not the Lords supper but play a pageant of theyr ovvne to blynd the people and keep them still in superstition to make the silly soules beleev that they have an English Masse and so put no difference betvvixt truth and falsehood betvvixt Christ and Antichrist betvvixt God and the Divell Thus do the best of them professe and testify of theyr estate Shall we then think as D.B. would perswade that there is not any Church vpon the face of the earth vvhich doth more soundly retayne the truth and doctrine of saluation God forbid Or doth he meane as Mr Hooker a rare conceyted man of the Prelates crew speaketh of the Church of Rome ♣ Hookers Ecclesiast Policy Book 3. Pag. 130. that it doth still constantly persist in mayne parts of the Christian truth and is of the family of Iesus Christ Yea * Ibid. Book 5. Pag. 188. that it is doe vnto her to be held and reputed a part of the house of God and a limme of the visible Church of Christ If such be D. B. his meaning here for theyr Church yet this doth but verify the Proverbe which sayth As is the Mother so is the daughter Ezech. 16.44 But no matter so long as he can with an hard forehead pretend that theyr errors do not simply ouerthrovv the truth neyther are held of obstinacy but are also for the most part off great controversy and disputation among the learned Yet marke that he saith for the most part Of them all belike he will not speak it Or if he should might he not likewise plead for the holding or intertayning agayne of Auricular Confession Seven Sacraments Setting vp off candels Reservation of the Sacrament Denying of the Cup to the common people Images in Temples for ornament or remembrance Monks Fryers Nunnes c. Or will not the Lutherans when they are driven to a straite thus alledge for themselves Yea doth not * P. Maâ—t Loc. com Epist ad Pereg Lond. Pag. 1128. c 〈◊〉 against whom Peter Martyr did therefore write very sharpely thus plead for the very Anabaptists And will not Hooker think you pretend as much for his Romish Bethal Or doth he it not in deed when he sayth even of Transubstantiation ‡ Hoâ—k Ecclesiast pol. book 5. Pag. 1â—6 that it is a thing vvhich no vvay can eyther further or hinder vs hovvsoever it stand And “ Ibid. Pag. 186. that the very thing vvhich separateth vtterly and cutâ—eth of cleane from the visible Curch of Christ is playne apostasy direct deny all vtter rejection of the VVHOLE ChristiaÌ„ faith as far as the Sonne is professedly different from infidelity Now compare with this also Mr Iacobs Replyes following Pag. 57. 101. 105. 109. 141. 156. 192. And see if theyr plea for the
Wherefore in this saying if you say to the purpose you then affirme the Third generall poinct that I noted in you at the beginning of this my last Replie That euery soule in England is conuicted in conscience But here I maruaile that you say Maister Hus and other of the holy Martirs did heare and say Masse till their dying day Also that others did acknowledg the Popes supremacie I aske you do you meane that they held and vsed the Popish Masse according to all the abominations that are in it If you thinke so then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest were holy Martirs For therein are found errors plainly fundamentall which of themselues abolish from Christ They are not to be compared to our publique errors now in England The like I say of the Popes supremacy If you thinke any of the Martirs acknowledged it in the large and ample meaning thereof as the Popish Doctors do set it downe Then verily neither were they any Martirs The book of Acts and Monuments whither you send vs affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort It may be therefore they held many and greeuous errors of ignorance both in the Popish Masse in the supremacy which might neuerthelesse stand with Christ crucified And so they might be and were holy Martirs But I affirme that according to the damnable grossenes of the very Papists they neither did nor could hold them Therefore in these instances you say nothing to vs nor against the question in hand Further you sayd before in the beginning of your defence of this Exception “ pag. 29. That Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and the rest of the Martirs then neither had themselues nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for Now I see you make no conscience of vntruthes yea you are bold to auouch open and knowne falshoods Did not Maister Cranmer hold him selfe for Archbishop still and that he vvas by the Pope vniustly and vnsufficiently deposed and by Queene Mary forcibly restreined from it Did he euer repent of holding that Office till his death Also did not Ridley stand vpon his right to the Bishopricke of London though ready to dye Latimer though he renounced his Bishoprick yet he kept his Ministery and neuer repented him of it Philpot neuer misliked his Archdeaconry Yea vvhen he refused bloudy Bonner yet he appealed to his ordinary the Bishop of Winchester The like minde is to be seene in Bishop Farrar And generally vvhosoeuer vvere Ministers then of the Prelates ordination they neuer renounced it though they dyed Martirs Thus appeareth your bold vntruth in this behalfe Further in your Sixt ansvver Pag 32. First you vvill not see vvhat I meane in saying That these outvvard orders be not of the foundation simply I meant not at all of the very ‡ 1 Cor. 15.2 3.4 Rom. 4.25 1 Cor. 3.10.11.12.13.14 foundation neither are they Secondly you aske if our outward orders vnder Christ be not fundamentall aswell as the Iewes vnder the Law I aunsvver neither vvere the Ievves outvvard orders of the very foundation vvithout vvhich they could not be saued Thirdly you aske how Corah c. differing from Moses and Aaron only about the Priesthood and Ministery were separated from and damned I annsvver not that the matter vvas fundamentall but the manner vvas rebellious vvith consciences a thousand times conuicted and so donne vvith a high hand against God himselfe But novv this considered Hovv vainely doe you charge me in your entrance into this Exception pa. 29. That I and others of my mind goe about to iustifie these matters of order in controuersie by Cranmer Ridleys and Latimers example and their congregations then For shame do you not see the contrary that I call them errors I onely iustifie by their example that these corruptions abolish vs not from Christ as theirs did not And that I trust is sound Which thing also you might haue remembred if you had ben so charitable by that vvhich I vvrot in * In the next treatiâ—e follovving of the comparison of the Ministery vvith Mariage Auns to your first Reason another place Then in your first aunsvver Pag 30. Hovv vainely do you aske vs for Scriptures to proue these orders seeing I expreslie called them errors The like in your Second vvhere you load vp Scriptures to disproue them Also thirdly you charge an vnconscionable vntruth on me if you meane this aunsvver vnto me that I should graunt and cannot deny that all outward ceremonies gouernement are arbitrary at mans pleasure I only said that our state holdeth that generall opinion Not that I my selfe held it If you meane them vvrite to theÌ„ and speake to them if you meane me you do me foule iniury Fourthly whether they are Popish shiftes or no let our state vvhich maintaineth these things aunsvver you Your Fift is aunsvvered in the first poinct of my explication noted before pag 35. To your Sixt in pag 32. vve aunsvvered before in the Second poinct of my explication pag 35. Your seuenth in pag 34. is also against the state of our Church and not against me Fr Io. his Aunswer to M. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 2. Excep PItie not me but pitie your self Mr. Iacob and your Churches estate Your self who are miserably weak and yet foolishly wilfull as all may see by this Reply Your Churches estate which is such as by the word of God cannot be approved to have Christ your Prophet Priest and King Therefore still you tell vs your Church holdeth Christ to haue left written what is needfull for your inward and meer spirituall belief and obedieÌ„ce but that for the outward Church-order he hath not so done but left it arbitrary to be appointed and abrogated agayne at the liking of the Churche and Magistrate As if Christ had abolished the * Exod. 20.4.5.6 second coÌ„maÌ„dement which directly concerneth the outward worship and order of the Church as the ‡ Exod. 20.3 first doth our inward and spiritual belief Or as if the Scripture did not every where teach that “ Col. 2 3.5.8.19-23 Esa 33.22 Heb. 3.1.2.3 2 Ioh ver 9. Epist to Timoth. Tit. Cor. c. he hath fully furnished the Church not onely for inward faith but also for outward order and obedieÌ„ce Eyther therefore you must approve the outward order and worship of your Church to be ordeined by Christ in his word or els you have not him for your Prophet Priest and King in that estate Chuse which you will The liberty you speak of is nothing els but a cloke of licenciousnes or in deed meer Antichristian slavery howsoeuer you account it liberty That the word of God forbiddeth it I have showed both here and in my * Pag. 30 former answer against which you can say nothing Now therefore when this will not serue the turne you begin to coÌ„ment and make notes vpon your owne explication that
God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides The Proposition none will deny The Assumption is proved thus The people and Assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the covenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteine But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assēblies of England as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word Therefore the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblies of England is such as vnto them in that estate the Couenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteyne The Proposition was proved by the example of the Samaritans and by Christs speach concerning them in such estate Ioh. 4. 2 King 17. wherevnto you answer nothing to any purpose save that what you say is against your self For where you graunt That the Samaritans and Balaam knew and beleeved the Messias should come yea and that the Divels know beleev there is a God and that Iesus is the Christ the holy one of God Who seeth not that most excellent truthes may be acknowledged and yet they which so professe be not therfore in their estate true Christians or true Churches to whom the Couenauntes holy things and service of God do apperteine And where next you say The Samaritans beleeved not in the Messias it will be heard for you to proove it seeing you take beleefe in Christ so as it is had in the spirituall Babylon and her daguhters and seeing also the Samaritans professed and beleeved not onely that the Messias should come but even he which is called Christ and that when he came he would declare vnto them all things In so much as when Iesus was come and had spoken but to a woman of Samaria the Scripture witnesseth that many of the Samaritans of that city beleved in him for the saying of the woman which testifyed he hath tolde me all things that ever I did Iohn 4.25.26.29.30.39 Thirdly where you say The Samaritans ioined Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell whih wholy destroyed the trueth in them By this againe it is evident even in your owne confession both that such things may be ioyned with the doctrines of trueth as in that estate they which professe those truthes can not be iudged true Christians or true Churches to whom the promises and holy things of God do belong and that therefore also the Proposition of your principall and maine Argument is not generall but of necessitie admitteth limitation So then your maine defence falleth to the ground Of which see further Pag. 5. c. Moreover in that you say The Samaritans ioyned Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell 2 King 17. If you meane that they worshipped the Idols themselves ◠King 17. sacrifycing to them and accompting them to be Gods as well as the God of Israell and so brake the First cōmaundemēt as before you affirmed in your answer to the First Reason then I take it that here againe you are deceived The scripture sayeth they worshipped and sacrifized to the Lord God of Israell So as their sinne was against the Second commaundement in that worshipping the true God See before Pag. 67. 68. they did it in and by those Images as also by other devices of their owne and traditions of their predecessours That this was their case besides that it appeareth in the chapter alledged it is most plainly testifyed 1. First by themselves in the book of Ezra where they speak to the Iewes of the captivitie that builded the Temple saying * Ezra 4.1.2 We will build with you for vve seek the Lord your God as ye do and we have sacrifyced vnto him since the tyme of Esar Haddon King of Ashur which brought vs vp hither 2. Secondly by the speach that was between Christ and the woman of Samaria Ioh. 4. where it is manifest the “ Ioh. 4.20.21 22.23.24.25.29.30 contention between the Iewes and the Samaritans was not whether onely the true God vvas to be vvorshipped but both of them agreeing in that vvhether the solemne place of his vvorship vvas in Ierusalem or in the mount of Samaria c. 3. Lastly by your owne confession when ‡ Pag. 105. you say the Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethel served not Pagan Idols but the true God after their ovvne devices For the Samaritans as the †2 King 17.28.32.33 Scripture testifyeth worshipped the same God and after the same maner that the Nations did vvhich vvere caried from thence Now the nations thence carried were the tenne Tribes of Israel that fel away from Iudah to Ieroboam Who likewise ♣ 1 King 12.27.28.29.30.31 with 2 King 17.32.33.40.41 feared the Lord and served their Images that is God in and by their Images As now also the Samaritans did that were come in their stead Hitherto of your answer which seemeth to concerne the Proposition of the latter Syllogisme The Assumption was shewed by this that your Assemblies being commingled togeather of all sortes of people you have also for your vvorship of God a counterfeit Ministery and service devised by man This you do rightly vnderstand as we meane it of your Hierarchie and other abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. Which deceiptfully here againe you would smother vp vnder the name of ceremonies Touching which sleight of yours sufficient is said before in the handling of the First Reason But what say you now cōcerning the Assumption or proof of it Do you deny it Not so What then do you say for your counterfet Hierarchie vvorship c. Not a word but this That your assemblies in England have not their consciences conuicted in these as the people vnder Ieroboam could not but have their consciences convicted then touching their vvorship and Priesthood But first if this were so is it any just defence of your Ministery vvorship or estate that yet you see them not to to be vnlawfull as it could not be but they vnder Ieroboam saw theirs to be If this were a sufficient reason might not the grossest Papists plead likewise for their Ministery worship and estate as also the Vsurers extortioners and persecutors for themselves and their wickednes And by this reason God should not have sent Lyons among the Samaritans 2 King 17.26 because yet they knew not the maner of worshipping the God of Israell neither had their consciences convicted therein But Christ hath taught vs otherwise †Luk 12.48 that even that servant vvhich knovveth not his Maisters vvill and yet committeth things vvorthy of stripes shal be beaten though vvith fevver stripes then he that knovveth and doeth it not And of those Israelites aforesaid the Lord himself testifieth “ Hos 4.6 that they vvere destroyed for lack of