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A14809 The controversie debated about the reuerend gesture of kneeling in the act of receiuing the holy communion. By Iames Wats, minister of Gods word at Woodnosborough in Kent: and sometime fellow of Magdalene Colledge in Cambridge. Wats, James, d. 1619. 1621 (1621) STC 25109; ESTC S102698 20,275 44

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any_o one_o judgement_n that_o shall_v compare_v what_o they_o allege_v with_o this_o that_o i_o have_v set_v down_o at_o large_a they_o cite_v also_o peter_n martyr_n as_o be_v clear_a on_o their_o side_n to_o condemn_v the_o gesture_n of_o kneel_v yet_o who_o so_o read_v his_o commentary_n upon_o the_o book_n of_o judge_n imprint_v at_o zurich_n in_o the_o second_o chapter_n fol._n 33._o he_o shall_v plain_o find_v these_o word_n i_o think_v we_o shall_v not_o contend_v that_o rite_n and_o ceremony_n shall_v be_v any_o where_o the_o same_o but_o there_o must_v be_v this_o proviso_n that_o all_o come_v as_o near_o as_o may_v be_v to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o that_o edification_n with_o decent_a order_n may_v be_v further_v 193._o nihil_fw-la alioquin_fw-la interest_n si_fw-la coenae_fw-la dominicae_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la stantes_fw-la aut_fw-la sedentes_fw-la aut_fw-la genibus_fw-la flexis_fw-la percipiamus_fw-la modo_fw-la institutum_fw-la domini_fw-la conseruetur_fw-la &_o 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prater_fw-la deum_fw-la legimus_fw-la chrysostome_n also_o hold_v that_o christ_n be_v to_o be_v adore_v in_o the_o sacrament_n no_o less_o corinth_n chrysost_n hom_n 24._o in_o cap._n 16._o ad_fw-la corinth_n cum_fw-la reverentia_fw-la &_o tremore_fw-la with_o reverence_n and_o tremble_a then_o as_o the_o wise_a man_n do_v perform_v to_o he_o lie_v in_o the_o manger_n matth._n 2._o which_o we_o see_v there_o plain_o be_v by_o kneel_v but_o if_o these_o and_o like_a say_n of_o the_o ancient_n shall_v either_o be_v suspect_v or_o contemn_v we_o refuse_v not_o the_o judgement_n of_o church_n reform_v now_o adays_o and_o of_o the_o godly_a learned_a in_o they_o the_o church_n of_o bohemia_n in_o their_o confession_n anno_fw-la 1575._o as_o they_o say_v first_o hoc_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la etc._n etc._n this_o sacrament_n ought_v to_o be_v administer_v and_o receive_v without_o adoration_n and_o the_o worship_n which_o be_v due_a to_o god_n only_o so_o they_o say_v by_o and_o by_o after_o accipit_fw-la populus_fw-la fidelium_fw-la usitatissime_fw-la in_o genuo_fw-la procumbens_fw-la hoc_fw-la accipit_fw-la the_o faithful_a people_n most_o usual_o receive_v this_o fall_v down_o upon_o their_o knee_n with_o give_v of_o thanks_n and_o rejoice_v &_o himn_v and_o rehearsal_n of_o benefit_n by_o the_o death_n of_o christ_n and_o all_o this_o as_o they_o understand_v according_a to_o christ_n bid_n do_v this_o in_o remembrance_n of_o i_o the_o heluetian_o also_o in_o their_o confession_n pag._n 113._o to_o clear_v themselves_o from_o have_v a_o mean_a regard_n venerandae_fw-la sunt_fw-la enim_fw-la haeres_fw-la sanctae_fw-la &_o venerandae_fw-la de_fw-fr sacris_fw-la symbolis_fw-la of_o the_o holy_a sign_n they_o say_v thus_o of_o they_o these_o be_v thing_n holy_a and_o venerable_a and_o the_o censure_n in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o church_n of_o france_n and_o
man_n to_o change_v those_o thing_n that_o belong_v to_o the_o common_a state_n 6._o §._o 6._o they_o be_v not_o advise_v sure_a that_o will_v have_v it_o leave_v indifferent_a at_o least_o for_o who_o listen_v to_o kneel_v who_o listen_v to_o sit_v who_o listen_v to_o stand_v 6._o page_n 6._o but_o of_o this_o heretofore_o beza_n be_v also_o plentiful_a to_o this_o purpose_n in_o epistola_fw-la 24._o 13._o objection_n yet_o godly_a divine_n will_v have_v ceremony_n most_o pure_a according_a to_o christ_n institution_n or_o example_n answer_n first_o this_o objection_n be_v nothing_o to_o the_o purpose_n in_o this_o case_n there_o be_v no_o institution_n nor_o clear_a example_n for_o one_o gesture_n more_o than_o another_o second_o i_o answer_v godly_a divine_n will_v not_o have_v contention_n or_o opposition_n maintain_v in_o the_o church_n for_o thing_n indifferent_a or_o that_o may_v be_v tolerate_v when_o they_o be_v once_o grow_v to_o be_v in_o use_n 120._o caluin_n epist_n 118._o 120._o m._n caluin_n say_v that_o diversity_n of_o rite_n and_o usage_n in_o one_o and_o the_o same_o church_n well_o compose_v or_o order_v be_v not_o tolerable_a in_o epist_n 118._o wherefore_o he_o say_v he_o wish_v hooper_n not_o to_o stand_v out_o as_o he_o do_v about_o cap_n and_o rochet_n epist._n 120._o beza_n in_o conference_n with_o jacobus_n andreas_n pelgartense_n colloquium_fw-la mon._n pelgartense_n pag._n 425._o say_v non_fw-la repugno_fw-la quin_fw-la coena_fw-la domini_fw-la in_o altari_fw-la celebrari_fw-la possit_fw-la i_o gainsay_v not_o but_o that_o the_o lord_n supper_n may_v be_v administer_v upon_o a_o altar_n 485._o zanchus_fw-la lib._n 1._o de_fw-la cultu_fw-la dei_fw-la externo_fw-la col_fw-fr 485._o and_o zanche_n say_v quta_fw-la neque_fw-la christus_fw-la neque_fw-la apostoliprohibuerunt_fw-la altaria_fw-la aut_fw-la mandarunt_fw-la ut_fw-la mensis_fw-la ligneis_fw-la uteremur_fw-la idcirco_fw-la inter_fw-la adiophora_fw-it hoc_fw-la quoque_fw-la annumerandum_fw-la est_fw-la if_o master_n beza_n have_v be_v altogether_o so_o indifferent_a to_o the_o church_n of_o england_n 25._o beza_n in_o explan_n 2._o pag._n 25._o as_o he_o be_v to_o his_o neighbour_n of_o zurich_n i_o can_v think_v but_o he_o will_v have_v write_v as_o favourable_o concern_v our_o use_n of_o kneel_v as_o he_o do_v of_o their_o use_n to_o receive_v from_o their_o minister_n with_o their_o mouth_n and_o not_o with_o their_o hand_n he_o say_v indeed_o that_o use_n come_v up_o from_o a_o superstitious_a veneration_n of_o the_o sign_n &_o the_o original_n of_o kneel_v he_o make_v to_o be_v better_o ut_fw-la supra_fw-la he_o spare_v not_o to_o call_v it_o monstrous_a when_o a_o opinion_n of_o worship_n concur_v with_o it_o yet_o he_o yield_v that_o whatsoever_o be_v right_o do_v as_o viz._n to_o abolish_v such_o a_o use_n be_v not_o simple_o and_o absolute_o necessary_a therefore_o they_o that_o so_o urge_v take_v with_o the_o hand_n that_o they_o hold_v it_o a_o profanation_n to_o receive_v it_o otherway_n when_o receive_v with_o the_o mouth_n only_o be_v without_o impiety_n and_o superstition_n and_o uphold_v to_o avoid_v the_o peril_n of_o innovation_n i_o be_o afraid_a say_v master_n beza_n they_o that_o censure_v it_o so_o hardly_o do_v themselves_o rather_o offend_v or_o sin_n by_o ignorance_n of_o what_o be_v fit_a to_o be_v hold_v in_o these_o case_n or_o else_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d of_o pertinacie_n and_o selfe-wilfulnesse_n again_o if_o we_o may_v reason_v as_o master_n calnin_n do_v pentateuch_fw-ge harmon_n 4_o lib._n pentateuch_fw-ge write_v upon_o the_o second_o commandment_n page_n 286._o for_o the_o lawful_a use_n of_o such_o church_n or_o temple_n as_o have_v former_o be_v defile_v with_o idolatry_n quia_fw-la nos_fw-la non_fw-la obstringit_fw-la quod_fw-la propter_fw-la consequentiam_fw-la ut_fw-la loquuntur_fw-la legi_fw-la additum_fw-la est_fw-la which_o to_o my_o understanding_n be_v q._n d._n the_o abuse_n of_o a_o thing_n do_v not_o restrain_v we_o from_o make_v a_o lawful_a use_n use_v thereof_o i_o see_v not_o by_o this_o reason_n how_o any_o popish_a abuse_n of_o kneel_v surplice_n or_o the_o cross_n can_v utter_o make_v unlawful_a the_o usage_n of_o they_o so_o as_o in_o our_o church_n they_o be_v enjoin_v and_o if_o under_o name_n of_o take_v away_o what_o may_v nourish_v superstition_n we_o stand_v precise_o to_o urge_v remove_v of_o somewhat_o which_o be_v per_fw-la se_fw-la medium_n in_o itself_o indifferent_a m._n caluin_n say_v say_v we_o may_v esse_fw-la in_o nimio_fw-la rigore_fw-la superstitiosi_fw-la ourselves_o become_v superstitious_a in_o too_o much_o strictness_n like_v he_o that_o do_v caleare_fw-la fastum_fw-la platonis_fw-la alio_fw-la fastu_fw-la three_o i_o know_v not_o who_o our_o church_n of_o england_n be_v to_o esteem_v for_o more_o godly_a divine_n and_o free_a from_o all_o partiality_n than_o the_o two_o public_a professor_n in_o the_o two_o university_n in_o king_n edward_n time_n bucer_n and_o martyr_n who_o notwithstanding_o they_o have_v not_o be_v former_o accustom_v to_o the_o use_n of_o our_o english_a ceremony_n yet_o behold_v they_o they_o do_v in_o no_o wise_n dehort_v from_o they_o but_o persuade_v the_o use_n of_o they_o as_o their_o letter_n extant_a do_v show_v and_o partly_o for_o this_o reason_n hooper_n bucer_n in_o script_n anglic._n fol._n 708_o hooper_n because_o as_o bucers_n word_n be_v it_o be_v evident_a that_o jesus_n christ_n our_o lord_n do_v only_o prescribe_v the_o substance_n of_o the_o minister_a both_o of_o the_o word_n and_o sacrament_n in_o his_o own_o word_n and_o all_o other_o thing_n which_o pertain_v to_o the_o decent_a and_o profitable_a administration_n of_o his_o mystery_n he_o have_v leave_v and_o admit_v to_o be_v order_v by_o his_o church_n and_o hence_o say_v he_o we_o celebrate_v the_o lord_n supper_n neither_o in_o the_o evening_n nor_o in_o a_o private_a house_n nor_o lean_v nor_o yet_o with_o man_n only_o master_n beza_n to_o this_o purpose_n say_v again_o 71._o beza_n epistola_fw-la 8._o pag._n 71._o that_o whatsoever_o be_v perform_v by_o the_o apostle_n in_o rite_n and_o ceremony_n he_o do_v not_o judge_v that_o forthwith_o it_o must_v be_v follow_v for_o a_o rule_n without_o add_v or_o alter_v because_o in_o the_o begin_n the_o apostle_n themselves_o can_v not_o determinate_o set_v down_o all_o what_o they_o judge_v to_o be_v expedient_a for_o the_o church_n and_o therefore_o they_o do_v necessary_o proceed_v by_o little_a and_o little_a as_o appear_v by_o their_o institution_n of_o deacon_n and_o their_o practice_n so_o often_o and_o in_o so_o many_o thing_n of_o the_o jewish_a ceremony_n hereto_o i_o may_v add_v that_o which_o another_o have_v declare_v more_o at_o large_a cassander_n sprint_v in_o his_o cassander_n how_o the_o apostle_n do_v some_o thing_n for_o the_o peace_n of_o the_o church_n &_o furtherance_n of_o the_o gospel_n which_o in_o some_o other_o respect_v they_o do_v censure_v most_o hardly_o 16.3_o act_n 16.3_o for_o s._n paul_n circumcise_v timothy_n although_o he_o profess_v to_o the_o galathian_o if_o they_o be_v circumcise_v 52._o galat._n 52._o christ_n shall_v profit_v they_o nothing_o he_o make_v vow_n shave_v his_o head_n 8.26_o act_n 18.18_o chap._n 8.26_o &_o be_v purify_v after_o the_o jewish_a manner_n and_o yet_o he_o call_v such_o observation_n impotent_a and_o beggarly_a rudiment_n galat._n 4.9_o the_o apostle_n also_o do_v impose_v some_o thing_n term_v they_o necessary_a act_v 15.28_o as_o to_o abstain_v from_o blood_n and_o that_o which_o be_v strangle_v yet_o i_o hope_v we_o join_v not_o with_o those_o sectary_n who_o will_v bring_v the_o church_n into_o such_o bondage_n again_o i_o wish_v hearty_o too_o that_o among_o other_o godly_a divine_n they_o be_v not_o neglect_v i_o mean_v in_o their_o reason_n who_o direction_n otherwise_o by_o authority_n be_v press_v upon_o we_o by_o law_n for_o the_o preface_n before_o the_o book_n of_o common_a prayer_n seem_v to_o i_o to_o be_v so_o pen_v as_o may_v give_v all_o sincere_a christian_n void_a of_o prejudice_n good_a satisfaction_n last_o i_o can_v but_o think_v it_o dangerous_a to_o reason_n thus_o that_o because_o popery_n be_v antichristianity_n therefore_o it_o shall_v be_v a_o good_a rule_n in_o reformation_n to_o show_v ourselves_o unto_o they_o most_o opposite_a for_o this_o false-light_n like_o ignis_fw-la fatuus_fw-la seem_v to_o have_v deceive_v the_o old_a arrian_n who_o will_v not_o entitle_v the_o son_n and_o the_o holy_a ghost_n to_o be_v essential_o god_n that_o so_o they_o may_v be_v most_o unlike_a the_o gentile_n who_o profess_o do_v worship_v many_o god_n then_o the_o eagerne_v to_o be_v most_o opposite_a to_o arius_n make_v some_o to_o be_v tritheits_fw-mi account_v the_o three_o person_n to_o be_v three_o god_n and_o some_o to_o hold_v with_o sabellicus_n that_o the_o father_n son_n and_o holy_a ghost_n be_v but_o mere_o name_n and_o do_v not_o note_v out_o so_o much_o as_o a_o threefold_a distinction_n personal_a and_o to_o conclude_v in_o stead_n of_o instance_v far_o of_o old_a we_o can_v deny_v but_o the_o separatist_n upon_o this_o ground_n be_v depart_v from_o we_o and_o if_o the_o position_n be_v sound_a we_o ought_v all_o to_o go_v out_o after_o they_o sed_fw-la deus_fw-la meliora_fw-la qui_fw-la facit_fw-la unanime_n in_o domo_fw-la cvi_fw-la in_o domo_fw-la sva_fw-la ex_fw-la pielate_fw-la &_o concordia_fw-la suorum_fw-la sit_fw-la laus_fw-la &_o gloria_fw-la in_o sacula_fw-la seculorum_fw-la amen_n finis_fw-la