here and there he seem's to me à little obscure yea to build with one hand and to Pull down with the other How euer by what is clear we haue enough and may well refute his Errours 15. Page 19. In the Book now cited He takes leaue to blame all those who declare in behalf of the Protestant Church that it depart's or Separat's from the Church of Rome For Saith he seeing it hath bin granted in and by this Church euer since the Reformation that there is and alwayes was saluation to be had in the Church of Rome as à true Church though corrupted I am very confident that no Church can Separate from the Church of Rome but they must make Themselues thereby Schismaticks before God I grant 1. Such are Schismaticks as leaue this Church I grant 2. Saluation was and will euer be had in this Church Yet say 3. It is Calumny yea à plain Contradiction to grant Saluation attainable in this Church and to impeach Her of Errour or corrupted Do rin The Calumny Church Motiues either proue that Oracle pure in all She teaches or in Nothing is vnquestionable because the Marks the signes and exteriour Euidence of our Church already insisted on either proue her Gods Oracle as sound and faithful in all She teaches as the Primitiue Church was or conuince nothing What then can these Aduersaries ayme at Will they grant Her no less illvstrious in Marks and Motiues which induce to faith than the Apostical Church was and yet make Her à Monster à harlot and prefidiously false in proposing Faith Haue so many learned Doctors Age after Age taught Her Doctrin so many Martyts shed their blood In defense of it so many Saints wrought glorious Miracles to confirm it and after all can it vpon no proof but vpon à vain and most vniust Supposition be called false and vnorthodox Nothing can be more extrauagant You must therefore either deny the Euidence we plead by which is vndeniable or own this Church entirely sound in euery Doctrin proposed as Faith Whence it is that when Iewes Gentils and Hereticks conuert themselues to Catholick Religion drawn thervnto by the light of euident Motiues they frankly belieue no Part but all Church Doctrin without Exception And the Reason of belieuing thus Wholly and not The Reason of belieuing entirely and not by halfes by halfs is giuen aboue C. 5. 6. where we Demonstrate that if the Roman Catholick Church has erred in the proposal but of one Point of Faith and obliged Christians to belieue that vnder pain of Damnation She is not only traiterous to Christ and therefore can be belieued in nothing But moreouer at this present day there is no true Faith professed in the Christian world Contrarywise if She be true and vnerrable in all teaches She is to be belieued in euery Article without reserue 16. Now to the double Contradiction in the words alleged It is granted Saith Mr. Thorndicke that there is and alwayes was Saluation to be had in the Church of Rome as à true Church though corrupted I Answer this is implicatory For if true She is not corrupted in Doctrin or if corrupted in Doctrin She is not true Vnless one makes by meer fancy à Chimera of the Catholick Church and sayes à true Church may be corrupted which is impossible for truth excludes corruption Therefore no Orthodox Christian euer owned à Church partly true partly false You Sr say 2. Saluation may be had in this Church Very good Ergo Her Faith is sound able to produce The Contradiction euinced against this Author in euery soul Repentance the loue and fear of God and what euer els is necessary to acquire Heauen Or if it want this Essential Perfection and bring not men to à security of Saluation it is no Faith at all and consequently Catholicks must be damned for want of diuine Faith hauing no true Church to belieue in See more Disc 1. C. 21. n. 7. Finally wheras you Assert No Church can Separate from the Church of Rome but they must make themselues thereby Schismatieks before God The Inference Sr is true but most clear against your Selfe And proues that both you and the Protestant Party are Schismaticks before God and man too For this matter of Fact Viz. That you Separated from Protestants proued Schismaticks and rebelled against the Roman Catholick Church is as euident as That England once Catholick communicated with Rome in Points of Faith in the vse of Rites Liturgies Sacraments And afterward diuorced it self from that Communion Reply or tell vs you had cause to do so and so far only receded from this Church as She receded from Her Ancient purity You make again à false Supposition your Proof your self Iudge in à cause you haue nothing to doe with And the louely Spouse of Christ loyal and perfidious Chast and à harlot with one breath 17. Yet one word more You say the Church of Rome is à true Church wherin Saluation is had though corrupted One clear Inference against Mr Thorndick Hence I Argue Either you in England are now at this instant separated from this Church as it is True or not If separated from it as true the Reformation belongs to you only you are to cancel your own Errours according to the form of Doctrin in our Church for She if true is so far pure that she cannot be reformed And thus much you seem to grant P. 33. It is out of loue to the Reformation that I insist vpon such à Principle as may serue to re-vnite vs with the Church of Rome being well assured that we can neuer be well reunited with our Selues otherwise That not only the Reformation but the common Christianity must needs beâ—lost in the Diuisions which which will neuer haue an end otherwise What is this to say but to wish the English Church reformed by the Roman Catholick Therefore something if these quoted words bear sense is amiss not in the Roman but in the English Church which needs Reformation Now on the other side if you say the Roman Catholick was and is à true Church Another Inference as clear and that the English also is altogether as true as she or hath not separated from the Roman in matter of true Doctrin it followes ineuitably if the Supposition hold's that neither of them needs Reformation in matter of Truth for here we speak not of Rites and Ceremonies which are alterable To what purpose then is it to talk of reforming either Church in point of Truth when both are Supposed so true that neither can be reformed nor differ if true in faith from one another 18. Perhaps you may yea and must reply if your Discourse haue sense Though they are true in Doctrins called fundamental yet both haue their lesser corruptions and these need Reformation This is all that can be Asserted For if both are false in fundamentals neither of them at this day is the Orthodox
was The same Christian Church as before the Reformation Hauing lost nothing that made it so And if you Obiect The Church in How our Aduersaries Shuffle England before Luther was certainly Popish now its Protestant Ergo it is not the same Church They Answer and vow it to be the very same though it ceased to hold Popery 20. Much might be said against these meer Empty words I 'll here only entertain you with two Reflections vpon the whole Paralogism First it makes the worst of Heresies defensible For might not Arius haue pleaded in like manner My Church They make the worst of Heresies defensible is where it was besore The very same Christian Society though changed into Arianism as the ancient Religion in England now is into Protestanism So also the Pelagians The Macedonians and all other Heretiques could haue Argued excepting perhaps à few Donatists who confined the whole Church to their little Part in Affrick Again As the Thing is reformed it passes with Protestants for à Part of the Catholick Church Therefore as reformed it s supposed à Piece of Reasonable Religion Sectaries And their Reformation vnreasonable pretend not to an vnreasonable Reformation And i' ft be So before the Professors of it talk of the Truth of this Reformation They are obliged to make it Credible by such Miracles Signes and wonders as an Infinite Power and VVisdom and no other Proposes to Reason But all is contrary They begin Becauss strip't of all rational Motiues and bring in à Reformation so naked and strip't of rational Motiues that none can Say God himselfe declares it reasonable by any Signature which may bee esteemed an effect of his Power and Wisdom Or in à word Supernatural 21. And here in passing You haue the true Reason why Sectaries in their Polemicks keep close to the Procedure of all condemned Hereticks The Arians for Example neuer Sectaries follow the strain of Condemned Hereticks went about to giue Reason the least Satisfaction in behalfe of their Rupture made with the Church but leauing that Rational way pleaded by Scripture So do Protestants Before they had Shown any thing like à rational Euidence of Credibility to countenance that shameful Diuorce They voted it Iust So do Protestants Wauing the Ancient Sense of Scripture receiued by the Church they glossed it after their fashion So do Protestants Tradition that strong Tenure whereby the Church hold's Her best Inheritance or Deriues Christ's Doctrin down from Age No Motiues Proposed to Reason to Age The Arians slighted And so do Protestants But All this while though we earnestly wish to hear of Motiues proposed to Reason whereby this Reformation may be made Credible we are turnd off with meer Talk And neuer yet heard or shall hear os more Euidence for That than the worst of Arians can allege for Arianism Wherefore I conclude Protestancy is an vnreasonable Nouelty and consequently no Religion for meerly to Say à Religion is true and from God before it be made Credible by Supernatural Signes Vphold's Arianism Donatism Quakerism and the greatest fooleries in the world CHAP. XVI Obiections solued Sectaries pretending not to Se the Churches Euidence are either blind or wilfully shut their Eyes The Assertion clearly proued A Parallel of the Primitiue and the present Churches Euidence How far Reason may be sayd to Regulate Faith 1. AGainst our pleading Euidence of Credibility for Catholick Religion manifested by the Lustre of supernatural Motiues One may first Obiect Euery Mans priuate Why the Euidence of Credibility is most Conuincing Reason is to Iudge whether this Euidence Conuinces or no And consequently the last Iudgement belong's to the Tribunal of priuate Reason I haue Answered The Euidence vpon two rational Principles is so great that it cannot but conuince First because the Author of it is no other but God who certainly was no Impostor when he set before Reason the light of most glorious Supernatural Signes And by virtue of Two Reasons them hath induced both Iewes and Gentils to belieue in Christ 2. Because That which the most Wise and Learned of the Christian world haue Iudged Euidently reasonable May vpon so great Authority be supposed Reasonable But All those Vast Multitudes Conuerted to true Christian Religion haue Iudged the Euidence of Credibility manifest in the Church both rational and conuincing Therefore it is so 2. Hence it followes 1. That the true Iudgement concerning The Iudgement long Since giuen now is not reuersable this Euidence was long since giuen antecedently to the weak Censure of this or that particular man who now would Cauil at it 2. That all Exceptions made against it are euidently vnreasonable vpon this ground That those Thousands and Thousands most Wise and Learned who owned the Euidence And haue been induced by it to belieue must if Misled be No other Inducements excogitable accounted not only temerarious but also Mad besotted and grosly Seduced by Fooleries This cannot be Granted Perhaps you 'le Say Those Wise and Learned belieued vpon other Inducements Distinct from our Churches Motiues Answ Not one can be Assigned distinct from these if wee speak of Motiues Proposed to Reason as is proued already 3. A. 2. Obiection Sectaries for all this Pretend not to se the Churches Euidence I Answer it is not for want of Light but for want of Ey-sight That is bebause they will be blind Thousands As is now Said as Wise and Learned as they haue Sectaries want not light but Eye-sight seen the Light and followed it Why then do They stumble in Darkness when the same Euidence is Set before their Eyes I haue no other Answer but what Truth it Selfe Deliuers Ioan. 1. The Son of God The Light of the world came amongst vs Et mundus eunt non cognouit The world would not know him Both Iewes and Gentils wilfully shut their Eyes to the Signal Marks of his sacred Preaching And so do Sectaries at this day to the Churches Euidence 4. Some may Reply What we now Say is only to Preach and not to Proue For how can wee Euince that Sectaries Shut their Eyes to any Light of Euidence Answ They wilfully Shut their Eyes Enough is proued Already Howeuer to come closer to the Matter and to leaue them without all excuse I 'll Add one word more which shall be Conuincing 5. Pray you Imagin That some of our Sectaries had liued in those happy Dayes when the Holy Euangelists set forth the Life of our blessed Sauiour And the Apostles preached his Sacred Doctrin to the first Conuerted Christians Would not An Argument drawn from the primitiue Euidence They think ye haue as readily belieued what euer Doctrin those Blessed men then wrote and Preach't As the other vast Multitudes who came flocking in belieued Yes Certainly Their Obstinacy though great would not haue surpassed that of Iewes and Gentils These yeilded after they heard such Oracles speak And so I think Sectaries
Answ what need of this when Protestants say there is no great difference between vs in Fundamentals But suppose this done which yet cannot be done whilst Sectaries remain in their wonted Labyrinth concerning Fundamentals what light haue we from these Fathers to try controuersies now in Agitation when they grant that Popery is made vp of the Fathers Errours The final sentence is past the iust Censure already giuen The Fathers were as we are now plain Papists I easily grant all 4. Shall I yet say more concerning the trial of Protestants Opinions or the supposed errours of Catholicks by Fathers and tell you Sectaries haue no Gusto to it at all And because it mainly import's first to discouer their want of Euidence and next their fallacious proceeding in this particular I will briefly do both and remit all here noted to the prudent Censure of euery Iudicious Reader Thus it is There is not one controuersy now Protestants neuer offer to plead by à General Consent of Fathers disputed in which our Protestants do so much as offer to plead by à General Consent of Fathers and Mr Stillingf likes not to be fob'd off with Two or three Testimonies Read their writings of the Real presence of Prayers for the Dead Inuocation of Saints of à Sacrifice vpon the Altar of the infallibility of the Church and tell me after you haue perused all How many Fathers you find clear and express for Protestancy A sight of four or fiue would help much But hereof there is no danger for you haue not one clear and expres I say more not one so much as probable against the Infallibility of the Roman Catholick Church Against praying for the Dead c. And therefore wonder not that Mr Stilling Part. 3. C. 6. P. 641. where he treat's of Purgatory talk's much of the Fathers Fancies and Imaginations And of an itching Curiosity some haue to know more concerning the future state of souls than God has reuealed But after all produceth not one Testimony either clear or probable against our Catholick Doctrin 5. Do you desire to see more of this want in behalf of Protestancy And how little there is to countenance the Nouelty Turn again to Mr Stillinf Part. 2. C. 1. P. 293. Where you find à Title threatning ruin to vs all The Roman Church not the Catholick Church Say I beseech you who would not haue expected after such à clap of Thunder à whole Torrent of Fathers to haue followed for his purpose But in lieu of these Imptij words giuen in lieue of â—athers what haue we Marry He tell 's vs First His Bishop makes à great deal of difference between The Church And A Church and some difference also between à True Church and à right Church next he fall's foul on his Aduersary for his not well considering what the Primate had said Lastly to pass by à few ieers he speak's much of the Vniuersal spreading of the Churches Doctrin and Vnity thereof which is due to the Roman Catholick Church only But after his long Discourse and the rapping Title with it you haue neither sentence nor syllable of any Father which so much as meanly insinuates That that ancient Moral body as it comprehend's all Christians vnited in one Belief is not the only True and Orthodox Church in the world Yet herâ— had been à most fit place to haue pleaded by plain express Authorities I mean such as directly proue the Roman not to be the Catholick Church Belieue it were there any such in the Fathers Volumes Mr Stilling to make his margents glorious would haue brought them to light with à witness But of this main point he is vtterly silent because he had nothing to say And therefore wisely Slip's aside to other By-Matters and leaues his Title to shift for it self 6. Hence you may well conclude that our Sectaries are driuen into strange Straits when we vrge them to proue their Protestancy Of the straites sectaries are Cast into We first call them to plain Scripture for à Final decision in this particular but wanting where with all they fit vs right with à return of Antiscriptural glosses We press them again to name any orthodox Church which fiue or Six ages since professed their Nouelties Not à word is Answered We make Inquiry after Councils held by Protestants before Luther for the Protestant Religion Silence deep Silence not one is found Mention only Oral Tradition they storm at you because they know Protestancy has none We appeal to the authority of the most ancient Fathers you see how we are serued with words and empty Titles Nothing is or can be alleged clear Nothing expres Nothing probable Finally to leaue them without all excuse We call them again to an account and Ask whether they will haue their cause tryed and iudged by their own Doctors Luther Caluin Zuinglius and the like No satisfaction is found here Luther condemn's Caluin more violently than the Prelatick Party in England doth the Quakers and Send 's the Associates Protestants irreconciably Contradict Protestants of Caluin to Hell for denying the Real presence of Christs body in the Sacrament And Caluin is as fierce against Luther in this particular And thus all Sectaries haue opposed one another from the very beginning of this woful Reformation Some plead for our Catholick Doctrin Others are contrary as you may read at large almost in euery Page of the Protestants Apology We therefore know not what these Nouellists would or can belieue whilst these endles differences about Belief thus turn their heads and make them to belieue iust nothing but what euery fancy pleaseth What à Religion haue we here View well it 's exteriour you haue only Horrour and confusion to look on Altars pulled down Cloisters demolished Bious places prophaned Stately Churches turned into sluttish barns by à barbarous Reformation Enter into the Interiour or cast à serious thought on that which should essentially constitute Religion you find this Protestancy à meer new Nothing as Scripture Neither Interiour nor exteriour valuable in protestancy lesse as Churchles without Tradition without the consent of Fathers or any Christian Principle to vphold it yea and this vtterly ruin's all without any Agreement in Doctrin amongst themselues May we not Therefore iustly deplore the sad condition of Thousands now within our once most Catholick England to see à Thing which stand's on no Principles but fancy most earnestly stood for by men of excellent natural parts and these English too whose Progenitors the world knowes it fully as wise as They were all Roman Catholicks But what will ye Good Reuenues A merry life à hansom wife and Self Interest will haue it so And thus much of the want of clear Authorities in behalf of Protestants 7. We are now to speak à word of their fallacious or rather open iniurious Proceeding with the Fathers And to make good what I am about to Say you may please to reflect vpon the
all This as S Austin anciently obserued vpon à like occasion is the greatest Wonder of all That he conuerted innumerable Heathens to our Christian Faith without Miracles CHAP. VIII Miracles euident in the Roman Catholick Church No less induce All now to belieue Her Doctrin Than Apostolical Miracles Anciently Perswaded to belieue that Primitiue Doctrin The Denial of Miracles Impossibiliâ—at's The Conuersion of Iewes and Infidels 1. I I say first Clear and Vnquestionable Miracles of the like Quality with those which Christ and his Apostles wrought haue been euer since most gloriously manifest in the Roman Catholick Church And in no other Society of Christians I hope none for Proof of my Assertion can expect that I write Volumes or bring to light again in this short Treatise so much as the hundred Part of those prodigious wonders which are vpon Record in the liues of Saints in the death of Martyrs and Ecclesiastical History Baronius large Tomes giue you innumerable in euery Century And Bellar Lib 4. de not is Eccle C. 14. Hint's at à few from the first Age to the 15. I must waue this longer work and briefly Argue thus 2. Christ Spake Truth in the Text now cited Iohn 14. 12. Prophesying of future glorious Miracles to be wrought by those vvho belieued Indubitable Miracles euince Christs Prophesy fulfilled in him But the indubitable Miracles wrought in the Roman Catholick Church only through euery age proue that Prophesy exactly fulfilled or effectually Euidence the Verity of it Therefore none can doubt of Miracles done in the Roman Catholick Church if Christs Prediction be true and this Proposition be also proued viz. That This Church only hath effectually manifested the truth of that Prophesy or shewn such Wonders as haue proportion with Christs own glorious works and the Apostles 3. Now to clear the Truth Here is my Principle When I read à Prophesy in Scripture I submit to it by Faith but when I See it actually Accomplished or made manifest by real visible Effects And both Sense and vndoubted History discouer so much euidently Reason grounded on Sense and History Can not but prudently assent to the Verity What I would say is clear in all the Ancient Prophesies of Christ and his Church Take this one instance The Prophets Daniel chiefly and Esay Foretold of the large Extent of Christs glorious Kingdom here on earth of The Principle whereon our Asserâ—ion is grounded whole Nations flocking to his Church of Her teaching those Truths which were belieued from the Beginning But when all saw with their eyes innumerable Heathens gained to our Christian Faith and heard of other Conuersions conueyed to them vpon certain Relation for few or none of vs saw the latter Conuersions wrought in China Iapan and the like remote places when I say Authority neuer Questioned giues vs certainty hereof Then all bless God And conclude That what the Prophets fortold of great Conuersions hath been visibly fulfilled And that Christs Church is dayly more and more enlarged Answerable to those Predictions 4. Hence I discourse further and Assert that the glorious Miracles which stand vpon indubitable Record and haue been done in the Roman Church only most notoriously Euidence without Dispute the actual Accomplisment of our Sauiours own words The works which I do he shall do also and greater than these shall he do If you Ask how I proue the Assertion I appeal to Sense and certain History Sense first saw these Miracles done and certain History which Supplies the want of Sense conueyes them to vs though innumerable are liuing at this Hour who haue been eye Witnesses of Miracles Now here we might enter vpon à long work and Recount what the Fathers and Historians both ancient and latter haue of this Subiect Read if you please these few 5. Irenaeus Bishop and Martyr who liued about the year 180. lib 2. Cap. 57. And saies The number of these Diuine works which God hath manifested in his Church the whole Fathers produced witnesses of Miracles world ouer are numberles A little before He mentions these particulars Some cast out Diuels other Prophesy others lay their hands on the sick and cure them yea and raise vp the dead who lined with vs for many years Tertullian of the second Age Lib. ad Scapul And Euseb lib. 5. giue you à large Catologue of most glorious Miracles The like doth S. Bafil Lib. de Spir S. Speaking of that worthy Bishop of Neocaesarea S. Gregory deseruedly called Thaâ—maturgus for the wonders he wrought S. Athanasius and S. Hierom relate the Miracles of S. Hilarion S. Martin And the same 's Hierome Lib. aduersus Vigelantium c. 4. Saith that the Signes and wonders manifested in the Temples of Martyrs proue mightily beneficial both to Belieuers and the Incredulous Responde they S. Hieromes words are his words Quomodo in Vilissimo pulucre c. Answer Vigilantius how it is that we see such Signes and virtue present in à little vnualuable dust and dead mens ashes S. Ambrose an Eye-witness of Miracles wrought by the Reliques of S. Geruasius and S. Ambrose an lye witness Protafius Epâ—st 85. for proof of them Appeal's to sense and the Iudgement of others You haue known saith He Nay you haue seen many dispossesed of Diuels many when they touched the garments of Saints free'd from their Infirmities c. S. Austin Lib. 22. de Ciuit C. 8. 9. Is large in relating the Miracles wrought by the glorious S. Austins Euidence Martyr S. Stephen And Lib. Contra. Epist. Fundam C. 4 5. Saith That the true Church of Christ is proued and demonstrated by Miracles Our Venerable Bede à great Scholler à worthy vertuous man And highly esteemed the whole Christian world ouer certainly deserues credit when Lib. 4. Histor He recount's the Miracles of the glorious S. Cuthbert Bishop of Lindesfern and of others within our England Are any such seen now à dayes wrought by Protestant Bishops No God knowes Their new Faith is à great stranger to all old Miracles 6. Fall if you please lower and read S. Bernard in the life of S. Malachy à worthy Bishop of Ireland what wonders haue we there The ancient Miracles of the Church Saith S. Bernard were apparently manifest in S. Malachy He had the gift of Prophesy S. Bernard in the Life of S. Malachy Cured the Sick changed the minds of men to the better and raised vp the dead Now if you will hear of S. Bernards own Miracles Read Godfridus who liued with him Lib. 4. C. 4. and wrote His life you haue innumerable T' is hard saith Bellarmin to Recount all And as numberles are the known Miracles of those two admirable Saints Blessed S. Dominick and the Seraphical S. Francis Founders of two most glorious Religious Orders S. Francis To omit his other certain wonders was Himself à Miracle of Austerity and Pennance The like was S. Dominick who as we read in his life raised three dead men
is in the hearts of such as are Assembled together in God's name and Assisted to define infallibly Diuine Faith T is true actually elicited euen after the permanent Habit infused requires à Supernatural Motion of Grace But hereof we speak not at present 5. A. 4. Principle When it is enquired Whether the Church Distusiue be infallible the Querie is not whether the Motiues inducing to distinguish that Oracle from others Demonstratiuely and with all Metaphysical certitude euidence likewise Gods Reuelation relating to the Mysteries Belieued For this might lead vs to enquire whether Faith be euident in Attestante That is so Vnexceptionably manifest that all may clearly Infer from the Reuelation clearly known That the Mysteries belieued are euidently true We now meddle not with that Difficulty though great Diuines patronize the Affirmatiue But only Ask Whether the Doctrin of Christ's Church be so infallibly Certain that it cannot be False or deceiue any Catholicks The Question Stated own à triple infallibility necessary to Faith The first proper to God's Reuelation no Protestant denies that The second belongs to the Church either Diffusiue or Representatiue in General Councils whereby we learn and that infallibly those Truths which God reueals The third infallible Assurance necessary to Faith all Orthodox Christians haue that belieue the A threefold Infallibility Mysteries reuealed vpon the Diuine Testimony Proposed by Christ's Church 6. A. 5. Principle If what is most vndoubted Diuine Faith essentially relies vpon Gods infallible Verity speaking by one or more men sent to Teach who proue their Mission and Demonstrate the Credibility of the Doctrin deliuered it necessarily followes That that first infallible Verity beget's in euery true Belieuer no less perfect Faith Than what is most certain and infallible Wherefore as it is the indispensable Duty of euery belieuing Christian to acquiese in and rest vpon God's infallible Mans Duty grounded on Christ's Promise Veracity So it is an indispensable Promise That we haue Christ present with à Church which teaches all Truth And therefore cannot but Propose the Obiect of Faith infallibly The firm Promise irreuokably issued from Power and Goodnes it selfe Matt. 28. 20. I am with you alwayes to the end of the world Iohn 14. 16. I will Ask the Father and he will giue you an other Comforter the Spirit of truth to remain with you for euer Hell gates cannot preuail against the Church Thus much premised 7. The Difficulty now agitated is Whether the Roman Catholick Church and Her approued General Councils be so secured from Errour That She cannot swerue from that first Support of Truth I mean God's infinit Veracity But must when She teaches Teach that exactly which God hath reuealed and will haue after à sufficient Proposal Vniuersally belieued Sectaries say She may Yea actually has swerued from God's Reuelation and in great Matters too though not perhaps in the What Protestants assert Primary Fundamentals as they are Called or in Fundamentals Simply necessary to Saluation And they were forced to this wicked Doctrin vpon three naughty Motiues 8. First to giue Scope or rather to inuite Libertins to hold or deny so much of Christian Religion as pleaseth their fancy And do we not see the liberty effectually laid hold on in England amongst Phanaticks and such giddy People All this giddines And why came first from the reformed or rather the deformed Nouelty of Protestancy They do it 2. to make Controuersies Endles For deny the Churches Infallibility Cauils go on Grant Her infallible Disputes are ended 3. This is done to quit themselues of an Infamy iustly laid vpon them of being both Schismaticks and Heretiques at once which shall neuer be claw'd of do what they can For these vnsound reasons or pestilent The Catholick Assertion Motiues rather The Church forsooth must needs be fallible Catholicks on the other side maintain the contrary And say there is à Church so Infallible that She cannot err in any thing She teaches as Faith And thus much God willing shall be euinced in the following Discourse But to do it exactly I am briefly to lay open to all that haue eyes The Abiect the Desperate and Desolate condition of à fallible Church You haue here my first Proposition 9. A fallible Church is essentially Constituted in à State of publick A fallible Church is in à State of rebellion Rebellion and Hostility with it Self Wages war against Infidels without hope of conuincing or conquering any And therefore cannot be Christ's Orthodox Church To declare further what I would say know first That Sectaries own à Catholick Church much larger than the Roman Catholick And make Themselues Part of it Conceiue now which though very hard is yet possible that the Representatiue of this great Moral Body meet 's in à General Council and discusses the Question now in hand Viz. Whether there be à Church of one Denomination Preserued infallible by Diuine Assistance Part of the Representatiue and these are Protestants Oppose the total Infallibility of euery Church Part Catholicks I mean Say one Church is infallible and that is the Roman The Difficulty proposed can be decided or not If not This great Representatiue meet 's to no purpose but only to make more No means to vnite it Strife in the world If it can be decided God has prouided means whereby the truth of so weighty à Matter may be known But there is no such means left vnless some one Church or other or all together be owned infallible Therefore an endles Hostility goes on in this supposed Representatiue 10. That all means fail may Sectaries Votes haue place is indisputably Euident You shall see it clearly The Catholick Party Appeales to Scripture alleges these and other like Passages Without some One Church be Infallible He who hear's you hears me and from thence infer's Who euer hear's the Church hear's Christ an Infallible Teacher The Church is the Pillar and ground of Faith and hence concludes She is infallible The Spirit of Truth shall remain with the Church for euer Pastors and Doctors are appointed by Prouidence to preserue the faithful from wauering in Faith and all erroneous Circumuention Hell gates cannot preuail against the Chutch c. What can be more The Scripture Significant if plain words haue sense for the Infallibility of some One Church Yet all these and many other Testimonies so shrink to nothing may Sectaries Glosses stand in force That no man can say what God speak's in these Scriptures or know the Truth now debated Viz. Whether any Church be infallible or not This means failing of its End which ought to compose our Strife Hostility is as vigorous as when the Dispute began for yet we know nothing certainly 11. Passe from Scripture to Fathers We haue there most pregnant Expressions The Church cannot be adulterated Cypria◠And Fathers Speak significantly the Churches Infallibility de Vnit Eccle VVhat She once receiued from Christ
after our priuate perusing those few ancient Records left vs end our debate whilst you 'l turn them to one Sense and I to another Nouel Reason shall end all Catho That I wish for But quit me yet of one Scruple What if your priuate Reason be byassed one way and mine another Or what if you Iudge that Reasonable which I doe not Here the Nouellist like one struck dumb spake not à word 13. Yet the Discourse might well haue gone on for I would haue further inquired whether to do as all the Christians what is to be Iudged reasonable in the world learned and vnlearned haue done be not reasonable None can deny it Then I would haue inferred But all these Innumerable Christians The very Apostles themselues and others haue vpon prudent Motiues Constantly iudged it reasonable to submit to Mysteries aboue the reach of humane Reason Ergo that must pass as à reasonable Principle But the Reason cannot be taken from the very Act The Euidence of Credibility not taken from Faith of submission For that is Faith nor from any Euidence in the Mystery belieued or obscurely proposed nor finally from Scripture alone for that Book Considered in it selfe is not its own Euidence Therefore the Euidence of Credibility Or the Euidence Proposed to Reason is extrinsecal to what euer I belieue and fundamentally lies in the Marks and Signatures of Christs own manifested Church 14. Hence I Conclude with this Dilemma and hold it vnanswerable Either God has set before all Mens Eyes An Oracle which now teaches truth most discernable by clear Marks and Motiues from all false erring Societies Or omitted to do so Grant the first Reason is as much obliged to belieue A Conuincing Dilemma that Signalized Oracle now As the Primitiue Christians were anciently bound to belieue the Apostles Say Contrary There is no such Marked Oracle distinguishable from erring Sectaries Reason is left in à Labyrinth and shall neuer find out true Religion Wherefore Protestants who seemingly stand for Reason and slight the Doctrin of our Euidenced Sectaries vnreasonable Church are the men amongst all other most vnreasonable and as dayly experience teaches meer Scepticks in matter of Religion 15. A 5th Inference The readiest way to conuince à Sectary How they are easily Conuinced and one though no great Clerk may easily do it is in the first place at least to waue that long tedious work of handling particular Controuersies which depend vpon Authority and to plead by Reason Thus I would Argue and haue often done so with good Success You as à Protestant lay claim to à reasonable Reformation and consequently to à Reasonable Religion Say I beseech you from whence haue you the Moral Euidence which makes this Reformation Credible to Reason I speak not yet of it's Truth for Euidence of Credibility e 〈…〉 preced's the anouching of it true We Catholicks proceed candidly Euidence of Credibility is first to be laid forth and propose to the reason of euery one learned and vnlearned the very Marks and Signs of truth manifest in our Church which Christ our Lord and the Apostles euidenced to the sirst Conuerted Christians You set vp à new faced Religion and when that 's done put it out of Countenance because Reason sees nothing in it which has appearance of Credibility You auouch it true before you make it Credible which Sectaries auouch their reformation true before it be made Credible is to put the Conclusion before the Premises 16. One perhaps will Say first The reason of your Reformation stand's vpon this rational Ground that wee Catholicks were deformed or out of all right fashion in our Religion Lamentable And are you the doughty Doctors that must mend what was marred and prescribe à new Model of Religion Can you Say what is or what is not Catholicism It is too much Boldnes not only to teach more learned then They make à false supposition their Proof you Selues But à high Iniury also to make à meer Supposition and very false too to pass for à rational Proof You know wee deny your improbable Supposition And you vpon no Principle call it reasonable Howeuer Suppose the falshood that wee are out of Fashion doth it therefore follow that you are got into the right Mode of Religion No truly If the Supposition stand's wee are both out And both need à new Reformation 17. Some may yet Reply Sectaries regard not that new coyned word of Euident Credibility à Term wholly Popish They endeauour to proue the Truth of Protestancy by Scripture and Fathers And to do so much is more than to make it Credible Contra. 1. Were it possible as it is not to proue the truth of Protestancy That 's besides the matter here in hand They are still besides the matter now agitated whilst wee only Treat of ending Controuersies by Reason Now all know that Authority whose Credibility must first be Euidenced before it haue weight precisely considered as Authority is not the Reason here spoken of For Example I Assent to the Mystery of the Incarnation vpon Gods own Authority that 's Faith but no rational Inducement to belieue What we demand of Sectaries is to haue the rational Motiues which induce to belieue this Protestancy laid open before the Eyes of rational men Herein we require Satisfaction but haue none 18. Contra. 2. Could these men proue their Protestancy by If the Reformation could be proued true Scripture and Fathers it should Methinks be very easy to point at an Orthodox Church which Six Ages since publickly owned the particular Tenets of it Here is my Reason Whateuer Doctrin the Scripture and Fathers teach the Orthodox Church conceal's not but openly Professeth She is not ashamed if Orthodox to teach what God has reuealed Now further Some Orthodox Church must haue owned it Had such à Church euer owned this Reformation it must either haue been like an inuisible Ghost not perceptible which our Newer Sectaries Disclaim or contrarywise discernable by the like Marks and Signatures of the Apostolical Church And if their Doctrin was euer taught by it They are to talk no more of its Truth before Its Credibility be euidenced to Reason by the Marks and Signs of that Church which is now supposed to haue taught pure Protestancy That is in à word They are first obliged to Say plainly what Articles of Faith Protestants as Protestants hold Essential to their Religion And then to make so much Doctrin and no more first Credible then true by the known Authority of an Orthodox Church But This is impossible Hence 19. And it is the last Inference whereby one grand Cheat of our Sectaries is discouered Long haue we inquired but without Satifaction Where their Church was before Luther The Common Answer returned by some latter Protestants making little Account of an inuisible Church is much to this Sense Our Church was there where it now is and where it alwayes