either 2. They are under a judiciall blindness God has given them reason and understanding eyes that they might see hearts that they might understand but they wilfully shut their eyes against that light and then by the just judgment of Almighty God this light is taken from them they are given up to blindness of mind and hardness of heart as were the antient heathens Rom 1. 3. Their lives are utterly contrary to the holy nature of God to his sacred word there is an antipathy an emnity betwixt their Debaucheries their filthiness their profaneness and his most holy laws Rom. 8.7 every line of it flyes in their faces threatening them with hel and damnation whereupon they cavil with they quarrell against it they wish there were neither God to punish nor scripture to threaten Destruction against them and so by insensible degrees they are brought to think and say in their heart there is no God as the foole did Psal. 14. so true is that of the poet quod nimis miseri volunt hoc facile crâ—dunt the thoughâ—â— and imaginations of wretched men are governed by their desires they hate the light because their deeds are evil though their understandings are convinced by unansweareable arguments and reasons of the truth of these great principles yet they will not believe them such is the perverseness of their will that it either blinds their mind or else draws them against self Conviction to believe a Lye and to hold the conclusion against the most evident proofes and premises Dub. I am perswaded that you have given very good reasons why so many are Atheists and infidels and that the cheifest of them are irreligious and prophane livers that practical Atheisme is the greatest cause of that which iâ— dogmaticall or Atheism in opinion 'T was the foole that said in his heart there waâ— no God first he was a foole i. e. a sinner and very wicked as he is discribed in that psalm and thence he proceeded Atheist a foole in practise and then a fool in judgment for t is most certain that a corrupt and wicked life is the true parent of ungodly and vile opinions froâ— which by Gods blessing upon your good endeavoures I am now delivered and am fully perswaded that God is and that he is a rewarder of all those that diligently seeke him that the holy scripture is undoubtedly the word of God and consequently that the Christian Religion is the onely true religion but observing that of those who profess this Religion there are severall parties and t is not unknown to you that heretofore I have adhaered to the Church of Rome I would willingly learn from you which party they of Rome or we of England be most Orthodox and Catholick Firm Your demand is rationall I shall most willingly Gratifie you in itâ— oâ—ely you must give me leave to propose these Two questions to you and let me receive your answâ—r unto them at our next meeting 1. What Inducements you had to turne to the Church of Rome 2. What Reasons you had to leave it Dub. You must give me leave also to recollect my selfe that I may be â—he better able to give in my answer to your Quaeries DIALOGVE III Against POPERY Firm. I Hope you have well considered of the questions which I lately proposed unto you Dub. To the first I returne this answer My reasons that induced me to adhere to the Church of Rome were these 1. The Antiquity of that Church which has continued ever since the Apostles time when by the testimony of St. Paul her faith was spoken of throughout the world Rom. 1.8 2. The universality of it no Church has spread it self so farr and nere upon the face of the earth as that of Rome 3. Her consent in Doctrine with the primitive Church 4. The unity of it under one infallible head which cannot err in poynt of faith or manners 5 The sanctity of it's Doctrine that 't is free from errour in matters of â—aith free from all immorality and improbity in point of manners 6. The sanctity of life in the authors and first-fathers of the Roman Religion these were the chief motives that caused me to adhere to the Church of Rome Firm. Indeed these are six of those 15 notes which Bellaâ—mine Lib. 4. de not Eccle. and others of his perswasion appropriate to that Church but had you not some other inducements As first a vitious life and the cheap and easy pardon of your Sins upon confession of them to a priest his absolution and injunction of a pitifull pennance 2dly were you not under some discontent for your present low Condition or 3dly were you not ambitious of preferment deeming popery to be a ready way to it or 4thly were you not tickled with the Cunning extolling of your excellent parts by some subtile Jesuite lamenting your sad Condition that a person oâ— so rare endowments should be so miserably mistaken in the great concern of your Soule perswading you that out of the Church there is no hope of salvation and that you being no member of the Church of Rome were past all peradventure out of the Church and unlesse you returned to that Church there could be no hope of your salvation or lastly before you set up for the Church of Rome were you serious and conscientiouâ— in any Religion for 't is very easy for one that is of no Religion that makes no consciencâ— of his waies being allured with the joyeâ— of heaven and affrighted with the terrours of Hell to pitch upon any Religion that confidently promises those and as confidently a freedome from these and we know that Priests and Jesuites want neither art nor impudence to perswaâ—e silly wretches that hopes of Heaven and deliverance from Hell are only to be found in their Church Dub. Truely Sir I am verily perswaded that many who have left your Church and gone over to that of Rome have stumbled at such straws but you have known me long to be a man of no vitious life no male Content not ambitious of honour or preferment not apt to be paffed up with a proud conceit of mine own parts not cold or carelesse in point of Religion but the chiefe reasons that moved me to goe over to the Church of Rome were those before named which made me believe that Church to be the only true Catholick Church out of which there could be no hope of salvation to these I beg your answer Firm. And you shall have it 1. The doctrine of the present Church of Rome which alone could denominate her ancient Catholick and Apostolicall is in severall weighty points quite contrary to holy scripture neither hath it the generall consent of the fathers and Doctors of the Catholick Church the prâ—sent Church of Rome is no more like to what it once was in the purest primitive times than an old decrepit man full of diseases Gout Stone Palsy Dropsy Scurvey Blindnesse Deafnesse Wrinkles and a multitude of
tender consciences and the occasions of many shâ—rp contentions amongst Christians agreeing in the substantials of Religion and seing that Conformists themselves confess them not to be in their own nature necessary but only expedient for order and decency were it not better they were laid aside then continued is they are the perpetual causes of discord and dissention amongst us Firm. And are order decency and uniformity without which there wiâ—l be neither â—ove Peace or Unity suâ—h inconsiderable nothings that a few innocent Ceâ—emonies must be utterly abollished to gratifie the dogmatizing humors of those men who esteem things in themselves indifferent to be sinful and unlawful which is sâ—â—t Superstition 'T is indeed much to be lamented that we should quarrel about Mint and Cummin to the prejudice of more weighty and material duties and the scandal of our Religion But by reason of our innâ—te and acquited corruptions 't is necessary that offences should come yet wo be unto that man by whom they come I know weakness and renderness of conscience is much pretended and we ought to take heed how we offend any of Christs little ones but how can these men be reckon'd in the number of weak or little ones who seem to themselves so great so strong and able in the things of Religion and for their tendernesse of conscienâ—e we appeal to their bloody civil Warrs 't is well known by whom and how they were began and carryâ—d on till at length they came up to the death of the King tho I believe very much against the intentions and designs of the most grave and sober men of that Party Dub. But really Sir were it not more beseeming Christian prudence so far to condescend to our dissenting Brethren who agree with us in the Doctrine of our Church in taking away at least some of those Ceremonies which are more liable to exception then to comply with the Superstitious Papists in the use of them Firm. I confess some moderate men have thought so especially since we are frustrated of of one main end for which our first reformers retained them which was to draw over the Papists into the Communion of our Church which they did adhere unto for the Ten first years of Queen Elizabeth until they were interdicted by the Popes bull But seeing we are deprived of all hopes of that much desired issue and that by the cunning of Priests and Jesuits stirring up and animating the Conformists and Non-conformists against each other about these Ceremonies Our differences amongst our selves do daily increase and multiply some wise and peaceable men have desired that the use of certain of those Ceremonies might be forborn at least for a time which not withstanding they are still continued These peaceable men abhor the great sin of Separation do continue their conformity to the rites of our Church daily begging at the throne of Grace that the God of truth and peace would for his mercy â—ake so assist those powers which he has ordained that they may be instrumental for the establishing of truth and peace amongst us Dub. I like well of the temper of these men and wish that their moderation were not only known unto but practised by all men for certainly if the Spirit of love peace and meekness did rule more in our peevish and froward hearts we should enjoy a greater measure of Peace Love and Christian Charity then these angry times have hither to been happy with I return you my hearty thanks for that satisâ—action which you have given me in those scruples which have much troubled me about the Goverment Liturgie and Ceremonies of the Church of England there is yet one thing behind at which I have somwhat been scandalliz'd 't is this Your Church does receive persons who are notoriously proâ—hâ—ne in their lives and grossly ignorant in the principls of Religion to the Holy Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ besides she tollerates at least Ministers that are scandalous in their conveâ—sâ—tion frequenters of Alâ—-houses not at all serious in Religion shew little sence of it in their discourses Preaching or practises men of little conscience and of as little learning Firm. This accusation is most fals whether it springs from spite or malice or extream ignorance I know not sure I am our Church orders that no suâ—h persons be admitted to the Holy Sacrament thâ—t no such Ministers be permitted to officiate that they are to be suspended once and again and if they do no not reform they are to be deprived for the first you may see the Rubrick before the Communion and the 26. Canon For the Second see Artic 26. and Canon the 74. and 75. and Canon 10. made 1640. which are so clear against the admitting of profane persons to to the Communion or tollerating of scandalous Ministers without due Punishment that whosoever chargeth these abuses upon our Church must be grosly ignorant or very malitious Dub. Yet we see that such prophane persons are admitted to the Sacrament as members of your Church and such unworthy Minsters are allowed to officiate Firm. Such persons are no members of out Church but rather the Synagoge of Satan and that Minister who does admit such persons natoriously prophane to the Holy Sacrament is a greater Non-conâ—ormist to the orders of the Church then he that scruples at a Surplice and those Church-wardens who neglect to present them are guilty of Perjury and ought to be debar'd themselves from the Communion Can. 26. Dub. 'T is evident that such Ministers are not Punished either by Admonition Suspensition or Deprivation Firm. This is not true in all places to my knowledge where such Ministers or people escape unpunished 't is mostly by the fault of the Church-wardens and Sides-men in not presenting them for what Judge either Ecclesiastical or Civil can punish offences that are not brought before him Dub. But many times offences and scandalâ— have been presented and the offender not punisâ—â—d yea your Ecclesiastical Judges are more severe against those who are Non-conformists to the laws oâ— the Church â—hen agâ—inst those that are Non-conformists to the laws of God as profane irreligeous wretches Firm. No mâ—n câ—n excuse the personal abuses that are committed in any Court Civil or Ecclesiastical all Court Officers never yet were nor ever will be men of integrity â—nd of unbias'd judgments no question that many abuses which are committed by the Officers of Ecclesiastical Courts might be prevented if the Bishops would be somtimes personally present in their respective consistoâ—ies as was intimated they ought to be Canon 11. made 1640. If we must seperate from a Church that enjoyns no Intollerable conditions for Communion with her because of some personal â—aulâ—s of those who are entrusted with her Goverment we must turn Seekers for where shall we find a Church whose Officers are alwaies all of them impartially just and upright Dub. I confess there is no good reason we should seperate from a Church
because of personal abuses in the Governors or under Officers where the Goverment in ' its constitution is not Faulty neither the terms of Communion intollerable but is there any reason that Nonconformists should be more shâ—rply dealt with then Debâ—ucht Profane Persons Firm. If we should compare Schisme Seperation Non-conformity with Profaness it would not be easy to say which is the greatest or which is the least Sin the first may be Majoris culpae the other Majoris infamiae as Aquinas rightly judgeth 1.2 q. 73. A. 5. of Carnal and Spiritual Sins those as Pride and Malice are greater Sins but these as Drunkenness Fornication are more Scandalous But to wave the comparison and to give you freely my own sentiments in this particular I do conceive that Debauchery and Profaness ought to be more severely punished then Negative Seperation and simple Non-conformity My reasons are these 1. Every prudent Parent will be moâ—e severe against a wicked Child that continues under his Roof professing obedience aâ—d sâ—bjection then against that Child which has utterly forsaken his Father and utterly abandon'd his House and Family 2. The sins of Proâ—â—ness and Debâ—uchery being willful for Drunkards and profane persons do not pleâ—d ignorâ—nce and weakness are oâ—â— more Mâ—lignâ—nt nature then sins of Ignorancâ— though it be such an ignorance which was not all together Invincible but contracted by Pride Pevishness Interest or Prejudice under which many Seperatists and Non-Conformists are in Bondagâ— and â—aptivity 3. The Lives and Conversations oâ— Debauched and Profane Persons who go under the name of Protestants and Members of our Church though intruth they are not but rather Limbs of Satan are the greatest Reproach and Scandal to it These are the men that furnish Shismaticks and Non-Conformists with their best Arguments which they urge against us For what they object against our Church Goverment Liturgie or Ceremonies is â—or the most part very frivilous and there is no Quaker Anabaptist Independents but mâ—kes the prophâ—ness of the Episcopaâ— party the chief reason and ground of his separation Dub. This I confess to be true from my own experience Nothing wrought so much upon me to foâ—sake the Church of England as the wicked and ungodly lives of those which she receives into her Communion Firm. That was your error for you cannot say thâ—t she receives any into her Communion whom by her Rubrick and Canons she â—xcludes and although through the laziness and connivence of Church Officers or Governors or both many an ungodly person receives the Sacament yet there is no just ground for a seperation from the Church which teaches nothing but what is Catholick and Apostolical Only I confess thaâ— in the exercise of Discipline she comes short of the Primitive severity against obstinate sinners yet the present Canons are so strict that if they were duly observed no openly wicked or ungodly person should be admitted to the Communion which would be a great satisfaction I am perswaded to those that now seperate from us Dub. But seing the Primitive Discipline has been so long time wished for above an Hundred years since as appears by the Rubrick before the Commination how comes it to pass that 't is not restored Shall we be still wishing and never acting or doing Firm. Why it has not been restored I know no other reason that is given but this The times will not bear it why the â—â—mes will not bear it I know not unless it be in respect of Seâ—taries who cry down many antient usâ—ges of the Church which they do not understand for Popery anâ— these men must not be offended least they be driven to an utter hatred oâ— opposition to our Church or else which is more probable such is the wickedness and profaness of the times that they will not endure the Primitive severity When will that time come that such strict discipline will be endured The Church has been in expectation of it above this Hundred years but still Schisms and Sects profaness and wickedness encrease every day more and more No question the times as to Sects and Pâ—ofaness if that were a sufficient reason are much more unfit to bear the antient discipline then they were when that wish was first made and the longer it is disused the more unfit they will be which I wish our prudent â—overnors would take into their serious considerations Dub. Certainly a Strict Discipline impartially executed upon all transgressors of Gods Holy Laws by sharp repâ—oofs severe admonitions due Suspensations from the Sacrament Excommunications Penances according to the quality of the offence would give a great check to that impiety and wickedness which reigns so much in our Land and take away much of the scandal which is given by our mixt Communions at which block of offence many have stumbled and fell out of our Church into Conventicles and Seperate Congregations Firm. No question a strict discipline would do much towards an hâ—ppy Reformation of manners in the Episcopal party but as you have observed the great scandal that is taken by the Non-conformists at the profaness and wickedness of that party so I must tell you that as great a scandal is given by them to those who conform to the Church of England though their lives and conversations being contrary to her Laws Canons they are no more members of our Church then a glass eye or wooden leg are live parts of a mans body Dub. I do not see wherein the Non-conformists whether Presbyterians or Independents have given any just occasion of scandal to any they being men that are very sober in their lives and great professors of Religion given much to Family-duties to Prayer to hearing of Sermons Firm. Hinc illae Lachrymae Here lies the scandal which mâ—kes Religion stink in the nostrils of profane and wicked men when they shall see that men professing holiness should make no conscience of Disobedience of Perjury of Rebellion against and at last of Murdering their Leige Sovereigne a man upon whom his most mallicious and crâ—tical enemies could never charge any scanlous sin Dub. These indeed are very grievious sins and much to be lamented but surely you cannot charge them upon the generality of thesemen but only upon some ambitious Hypocrites that made Religion a stalking-horse to bring about their devilish designs Firm. 'T is true that all the Non-conformiâ—â—s in England were not in actual armes against the King neither did they sit in the High Court of Injustice upon him neither did they all as natural agents cut of his Head but morally that is very sinfully and wickedly they had their hands stain'd with that Royal blood for whosoever did abet these sons of Belial in their Rebellions Treasons Murders of their King and fellow Subjects either by consenting to their Villanies praying for their prosperity praising God for their Victorious success or by assisting them with their councels advice free and voluntary Contributions by writing and preaching up the
Imprimatur RAD. BATHVRST Vice-Can Oxon. FIRMIANUS and DVBITANTIVS OR Certain DIALOGUES Concerning Atheism Infidelity Popery and other Heresies and Schisme's that trouble the peace of the Church and are destructive of Primitive Piety VVritten in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians By THO. GOOD D.D. Master of Baliol Colledge in Oxon. Take heed Brethren least there be in any of you an evil heart of unbeleif in departing from the living God Heb. 3.12 OXFORD Printed by L. LICHFIELD Printer to the University for THO. HANCOX Book-seller in Hereford 1674. To the Reader COnsidering the many Learned and judicious Tracts that are extant against Atheism Infidelity Popery with other Heresies Sects Schisms destructive of the Antient Catholick Religion and of that Peace and Vnity Love and Charity which is the badge and mark of Christs sheep I thought it superfluous to add my poor Scrible after such fair Copy's but observing the length and learning of those elaborate Tractat's which many men have neither money to buy leasure to read nor judgment to understand I conceived that these few short Discourses not fitted nor indeed intended for the perusal of the learned might nevertheless be gratum opus agricolis not altogether unprofitable for men of ordinary Capacityes to which purpose I have used such means and methods That I might be the better understood by these men I have endeavoured that the matter of these discourses for the most part might be plain and familiar the phrase and expressions intelligible I have made use of two feigned names Firmianus and Dubitantius to personate the sound Believer and the doubting Sceptick Christian who are brought upon the Stage disputing by way of Dialogue which is most suiteable to men of short discourse and most apt to comply with their apprehension I hope the more learned Reader if any such shall give themselves the trouble to peruse this little Manuel will not Censure the plainness of it but rather commend the Charity of the Author toward the wâ—ll meaning Christian who amongst those many Treatises that have been written can meet with very few that are calculated for his Meridian and consequently is apt to be blown about with every wind of doctrine by the slight of men and cunning craftines whereby they lye in wait to deceive and who these gamesters are he that has but half an eye may see and how many a poor soul has in these times of confusion been blown about from one erroneous opinion to another until he has turned Seeker Scheptick and at last down right Atheist there is no man so great a stranger in our Hierusalem that can be ignorant Wherefore if these short and familiar discourses may have the happiness to prevent the falling of any unsetled wavering soul or to restore any that has fallen to a sound mind 't will be my great satisfaction and rejoying to be able to apply to my self that of St. James cap. 5.19 Brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him let him know that he that converts a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins Now the God of truth and peace grant that these poor and weak endeavours may work that good effect upon the erring seduced sinner and that the multitude of my sins may be covered with the long white robe of my blessed Saviours righteousness for his holy name sake Amen Thine in the truth that is iâ— Christ Jesus THO. GOOD DIALOGUE I. Against ATHEISME Firm. GOod morrow to my old Friend Dubitantius Dub. A good day to you Firmianus Firm. Methinks I read some discontent in your face what may be the cause of it Dub. There is a great cause I have been so long distracted betwixt diversity of Opinions in point of Religion that I am now doubting whether there be any Religion at all or any Supream invisible Deity to be worshipped Firm. This is the common result of vain Janglings that they usually end in Atheism and Infidelity But pray tell me is it possible that there should be such fierce disputes and bitter contentions about a very nothing Certainly such sharp disputes about the various manners of Gods worship do strongly argue that Religion is a thing of highest concern or that all the wisest men that ever were in the world are Fooles and madmen to oppose hate malign persecute one another even unto death for a groundless fancy a very nothing Dub. Your discourse is very Rational for I suppose wise men would never wrangle about a meer Romance yet I confess I have had strange irrational thoughts against the very Being of God and the truth of any Religion Firm. You justly term such thoughts irrational Did not I once tell you that when you had forsâ—ken your Mother the Church of England the most Apostolical Catholick in the whole world in short time you would become a Libertine an Atheist any thing or nothing Dub. Do you think that all Nonconformists and Separatists from your Church are Libertines and Atheists Firm. I am not so uncharitable but I must tell you that causeless separation is a very greiveous sin and punished many times with the seveâ—est judgments such as are Spiritual blindness Hardness of heart and a Reprobate mind Dub. I fear those judgments have overtaken me for since I became a Separatist from your Church I have been very cold at my Devotion made little conscience of publick or secret Praier of Obedience to those powers which God has ordained of Love Charity Honesty and Upright dealing towards my neighbours I have lived an Atheist in practise so long that I am now ready to be an Atheist in Opinion and to say with the foole in the 14. Psal. There is no God I have so long sâ—ept out of one opinion into another that at length I am become a very Sceptick in Religion doubting of all and fixing upon none Firm. Truly Sir you made good your name by your practise which renders you a right Dubitantius But pray tell me by what degrees and methods you have stept out of our Church into the borders of Atheism that I may with the more facility bring you back the same way by which you have unhappily gone out from us into the bosome of your dear Mother Dub. Your Demand is reasonable 'T is not unknown to you that I was once a true son of the Church of England you shall hereafter know for what reasons I left her Communion and became a Presbyterian and to be breif I stay'd not long in that opinion but presently I proceeded Independent then Anabaptist then Quaker then Papist then Antiscripturist then what you now find me almost an Atheist Firm. I hope you are not fixed in that wretched Opinion as resolvedly to deny him a being that gave you yours Dub. Sir I am not but have many doubts whether there be and as many thoughts that there is not