Selected quad for the lemma: england_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
england_n	christian_a	church_n	communion_n	2,479	5	8.9287	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19952	The reply of the most illustrious Cardinall of Perron, to the ansvveare of the most excellent King of Great Britaine the first tome. Translated into English.; Réplique à la response du sérénissime roy de la Grand Bretagne. Vol. 1. English	Du Perron, Jacques Davy, 1556-1618.; Cary, Elizabeth, Lady, 1585 or 6-1639.; Du Perron, Jacques Davy, 1556-1618. Lettre de Mgr le Cal Du Perron, envoyée au sieur Casaubon en Angleterre. English.; Casaubon, Isaac, 1559-1614. Ad epistolam illustr. et reverendiss. Cardinalis Peronii, responsio. English. Selections.	1630 (1630)	STC 6385; ESTC S107359	685,466	494

himselfe confest in these wordes The Apostles saith hee in truth haue prescribed nothing of this but this Custome ought to be beleeued to haue taken originall from their tradition as there are manie things that the vniuersall Church obserueth which art with good reason beleeued to haue bene giuen by the Apostles although they be not in writing Was this to pretend to seperate themselues from the Church out of iollitie of hart and without anie cause and neither to blame the faith nor discipline of the Church Of the authoritie of the rest of the Christian people which denied to the Church the title of Catholick Chapt. XXXII The continuance of the Kings Answere THE English haue separated themselues by a cruell necessitie from that Church that infinite Christian people that I may speake as modestly as I possiblie can doe not 〈◊〉 to be the true vniuersall Church THE REPLIE THat the English Church hath bene iustly forced by a cruell necessitie to depart from the Catholicke Church wherein alone the stocke of vnitie doth reside as our very aduersaries dare not saie that the bodie of Catholicke vnitie was to be found in anie other Societie when the English nation deuided themselues from her saint AGVSTINE will not avow who saith that there is no iust necessitie to deuide vnitie And lesse S. DIONISIVS of Alexandria who was much antienter then saint AVGVSTINE who writes Thou oughtest rather to suffer all kinds of death then to deuide the Church of Christ. For whereas his maiestie adds that an infinite number of Christian people doe not grant her to bee the true vniuersall Catholicke Church if these people can shew that there was an other to whom this title belonged when Luther came into the world wee will confesse her not to be soe but if it be not in their power not only to shewe but to faine an other then this must be shee For the Catholicke Church is perpetuall and their contradiction that are departed from her can not raise anie doubt of her title more then the contradiction of the antient Arrians and other hereticks could cause the antient Catholicke Church to loose this title For in that only that they haue departed from her and cannot shew that she hath departed from anie of all the other Societies which are in being they testifie that she only is the true Catholicke Church that is to saie the true stocke and originall roote of the Church from whom all others by their Schismes and diuisions are departed and gone forth Of the testimonies of our writers CHAP. XXXIII The continuance of the King answere AND that maniē of your writers themselues haue a longe while agoe ingeniousliē confessed to haue much varied from the antient in the dogm'as and in the forme of discipline and to haue patched and tacked together manie new thinges to the old manie euill thinges to the good THE REPLIE THOSE writers haue bene such as I haue aboue described as Erasmus Cassander and others who partly in presumption and partlie in ignorance of antiquitie and partlie to gratifie those Princes in whose fauour they haue taken penn in hand haue written thinges which would confound their faces if they were to maintaine them before anie that were versed of purpose in the studie of Antiquitie Of the begging of the principle contained in this hypothesis CHAPT XXXIV The continuance of the Kings answere WHICH is alreadie so knowne to all the world as it is noe longer in thé power of anie to denie it or to be ignorant of it THE REPLIE THIS is to take for a principle of disputation that which is the subiect of the controuersie for not only all Catholickes but also all the Christian Societies in the world more antient then the authors of this diuision and who haue noe interest neither for the one part nor for the other and if they had anie would haue it rather against the Church from which they are separated then for her doe maintaine that all the principall pointes that the pretended reformers calumniate in the Roman Church are of the true faith and of the true discipline of the antient Catholicke Church Of the temporall causes of the separation of England CHAP. XXXV The Continuance of the Kings Answere ADD to this that the Church of England had found the yoake of the Roman Bondage so hard vpō her for some ages past being incrediblie tormented frō daie to day with new vexations oppressions and vnheard of exactions as 〈◊〉 only cause before iust iudges may seeme to be able to free her from suspition of Schisme and as S. AVGVSTINE saith speaking of the Donatists wicked dismembring For sur ely the English haue not separarated themselues for iollitie of heart from brotherly charitie as the 〈◊〉 did THE REPLIE IF it may please your maiestie to call againe to memorie the historie of the Schisme of England you will finde that all those thinges which were alleadged for pretence of the Churches diuision haue noe waie bene the cause thereof contrariwlse that the English Church was more flourishing when this separation happened and the King of England and his clergie more affectionate to maintaine the Faith and communion of the Roman Church then euer they had bene before as appeares by the Booke that he made in defence of the Church against Luther the originall whereof he sent to Rome with these verses such as they are addressed to Pape Leo written with his owne hand Harrie the English King at once doth recommend This worke Leo to thee which publick proofe shall lend To shew which way his faith and friendship both doe bend But that it was the amorous passion of that King who to satisfie the appetite which transported him would cause a iust mariage to be broken and marrie her that he loued his first lawfull wife and by whom he had issue being yet liuing to which the Pope conceaued that he could not with a safe conscience giue consent This was the true and onely cause of all this Iliad of euills From hence gusht all these teares Of the comparison of the English Church with the Iudaicall CHAP. XXXVI The continuance of the Kings answere NOT for feare of the 〈◊〉 which was eminent but did not yet presse them like the tenn tribes of the people of the Iewes but after hauing suffered manie ages after the 〈◊〉 of vnspeakable greeuances they haue finallie shaken from their shoulders that insupportable burthen which neither their strength was longer able to beare nor would their conscience permitt them to doe it THE REPLIE HERE I might content myself with saying that what was ordained and approued by God in the separation of the ten tribes of Israell from the Kingdome of Iuda was the only di uision of State and not that of Religion For God as saint AVGFSTINE saith commaunds neither Schisme nor heresie And by consequence what pretence soeuer is added of present and not future euill there can be noe consequence

the state of the Question 437 XXVI Of the inuention of order in the iustification of the reformation before the proofe of the deformation 438 XXVII Of the indefectibilitie of the Church 439 XXVIII Of the sense wherein the Fathers haue intended that their doctrine had bene holden from the beginning 441 XXIX Of the exceptions that the Kinge produceth to shewe that he hath not separated himselfe from the Church 442 XXX Of the demannds made for Reformations since the fiue last ages 443 XXXI Of the agreement of the English reformers with the Donatists 444 XXXII Of the authoritie of the rest of the Christian people which denied to the Church the title of Catholick 446 XXXIII Of the testimonies of our writers 447 XXXIV Of the begging of the principle contained in this hypothesis ibid. XXXU Of the temporall causes of the separation of England 448 XXXVI Of the comparison of the English Church with the Iudaicall ibid. XXXVII Of the comparison of the Charitie of the antient African Church and the moderne Roman Church 462 XXXVIII Of the innocencie of the Church in the matter of conspiracies against his maiestie ibid XXXIX Of the writings of the illustrious Cardinall Bellarmin 463 An admonition to the Reader COurteous reader for so I will esteeme of thee whosoeuer out of a true desire of vnderstāding the truth takest this learned work into thy hands to peruse it with iudgment and yet without preiudice vouchsafe before thou begin the perusall thereof to take these few obseruations from me First whereas the most eminent authour thereof had proiected to diuide it into twelue seuerall bookes or partiall treatises and died before he could make a compleat end thereof being often diuerted from it by manifold employments which his high estate calling was subiect vnto by some more necessary dispute writings which the cōdition of France did then affoord his frinds either not marking this his proiect or because all the work was not ended neglecting that diuision set is foorth reparted into six bookes only and those so vnequally sorted that the first book alone is in the French edition farre bigger then all the other ensuing fiue bookes taken together This vnproportionable partition we haue amended in this English translation as we might easily do by the citations or quotations with which the authour himself bordered his margent for in them he sometimes referres him self to such a chapter of the second seuenth eleuenth twelft booke whereby he sufficiently insinuates into how many bookes he intended to diuide this his excellent worke at what matter euery booke should take its beginning which his intention we haue obserued in this that now we present to thy view that the fit diuision of matters therein handled may make it more intelligible and lesse tedious Secondly the humour of the French demanded for their satisfaction that the many places which are cited out of learned holy and classicall autours hould not only be faithfully translated in the text but also placed at large in their originall languages in the margen that the learned reader might without recourse to the seuerall volumes which required a copious library whereof few are furnished out of hand examin the faithfullnes of the trāslatiō cōsequētly how fitly the alleged authority made for the purpose But this humour not yet for ought I haue seen much raigning in our country we haue thought it sufficient to cite the places only in the margen which are fully expressed in the text the rather because the excellent translatresse copy which we haue faithfully expressed contayned no more and more beseemed not her translation as not desiring to make shew of skill in greek and other such learned languages but only of that which was sufficient for her assumpt that it is of a faithfull translation according to the significant expressement of the French Thirdly we haue not presumed to alter or change any one word of her translation but in some few places where the French allusions could not be so well vnderstood if they were expressed in English properly corresponding thereunto for euery tongue hath some peculiar graces and elegancies which be lost in the translation yf they be put word for word And yet this haue we done as we sayde very seldome and that especially in the word Church wich we English men vse deriued from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the house dedicated to our Lords seruice which tropically we vse also to signify the congregation of the faithfull most solemnly and vsually made in the Church The French expresse it by the name of Eglise from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vocatus ad professionem fidei the company of the faithfull called by Christ to professe his lawe by which word they secundarily or tropically vnderstand and call the Church or house of prayer So in the name of S. Peter in Frenche S. Pierre which word also signifies a rock or stone in French as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greek and Cephas in Syriak do but in our English we haue no such allusion No other change but in these few and such like haue we made neither was it needfull the translatresse hauing so fittly and significantly expressed the autours meaning that it would haue been lost labour to striue to do it better and rather marring then mending so perfect an expression Lastly I desire thee gentle reader to beare with the faults of the presse The printers being Wallons and our English strange vnto them it was incredible to see how may faults they committed in setting so that in ouerlooking the proofes for the print the margins had not roome enough to hold our corrections and do what we could yet the number of our corrections being so many a great many of them remayned vncorrected by the fastidious fantasy of our workman Yet we iudge there is no fault that may hinder or change the sence but is amended and for the rest we desire thee to pardon vs considering how hard it is to make a stranger here to expresse our ortography Farewell in our Lord and he of his goodnes giue thee grace to take profit by reading these learned discourses Thy Wellwisher in Christ Iesus F. L. D. S. M. APPROBATIO TRanslatio haec operis excellentissimi quod eminentissimus Cardinalis Perronius pro fides catholicae doctrina ad potentissimum Regem ac Dominum nostrum Jacobum totius Britanniae Franciae Hiberniae Monarcham summa cum cruditione pariter modestia conscripsit facta a nobilissima quadam Heroina prouinciae nostrae serenissimae Reginae Dominae nostrae Mariae 〈◊〉 Borboniae dicata per omnia fideliter concordat cum ipsa autoris mente verbis sententiis Qua propter dignā eam 〈◊〉 quae typis tradatur vtex tanti Praeceptoris accuratissimis cloquentiaque incomparabili vestitis disputationihus fructum copiosum capiatur Anglia nostra qualem vniuersa Gallia cum perpetua Magni autoris veneratione se percepisse protestatur

predesigned that she might be discerned and hath bene exbibited that she might be seene And if he can proue that she neuer went forth from the Communion of anie other but that all other went forth from her and shee alwaies remained in her roote visible eminent perpetuall immutable and exempt from all interruption which is a marke which Saint AVGVSTINE testifies to be inseperable from the Church when he writes The Catholicke Church fightinge with all heresies may be opposed but she cannot be ouerthrowne All heresies are come out from her as vnprofitable branches out from the vine but she remaines in her vine in her roote in her Charity In truth I saie if the excellent kinge can shewe these 3. thinges I confesse freely that this Collection of passages that out of the Catholick Church none can be saued that whosoeuer is separate from the Catholicke Cburch how laudable soeuer he presumes his life to be for this only Crime that he is separated from the vnitie of Christ he shall not haue life but the wrath of God shall remaine vpō him that he shall not haue God for his Father that will not haue the Church for his mother and that it shall nothinge auaile him to haue 〈◊〉 or done such and soe many good workes without the end of the soueraigne good that out of the Catholicke Church all thinges may be had but saluation that he that Communicates with the the generall Church is a Christian and a Catholicke and he that communicates not therewith is an hereticke and Antichriste that it must be 〈◊〉 and vndoubtedly held that euery hereticke or Schismaticke baptised in the name of the father the Sonn and the holy Ghost if before the end of his life he doe not 〈◊〉 himselfe to the Catholicke Church what almesdeedes soeuer he doe yea though he should 〈◊〉 his blood for the name of Christ can in noe sorte be saued makes not against his Maiestie But if contrarily the excellent kinge cannot proue that the Church to which he adheres hath taken the originall of her visible Communion continued and not interrupted from aboue 60. or 80. yeares and that betweene the tyme of the Fathers from whom that collection of passages hath bene extracted and the tyme of Caluins pretended reformation there hath neuer bene anie Church anie communion anie Societie anie person that hath held iointlie vniuersally those thinges for which England hath deuided herselfe from the visible Communion of that Church wherein she was before then I had need be instructed to apprehend how these passages make not against his maiestie Of the distinction of heretickes and Schis matickes CHAPT XVI The continuance of the kinges answere FOr from all these testimonies there followes onely this consequently that there remaines noe hope of saluation for those who are seperated from the faith of the Catholicke Church or from the Communion of the same Catholicke Church which the kinge as we haue said before grauntes himselfe THE REPLIE THe Collection of the passages that I haue produced doe not put this alternatiuely that amongst those that are seperated either from the faith of the Catholicke Church or from her Communiō there is noe saluation Otherwise in a thinge that the Fathers would should be cleere and manifest they had a perpetuall ambiguitie to witt what it were to be seperated from the faith of the Catholicke Church For there would remaine alwaies this questiō whether the pointes of separatiō were pointes of Faith and the separation might be made vpon such a pointe as the one side would say it were a pointe of Faith and the other that it were not As the Pellagians disputinge against the Catholickes said theire difference was not in a pointe of Faith And the Catholicks said the contrary and as yet to this daie the Zuinglians and the Caluinistes disputinge against the Lutherans theire contestation is not about a point of faith and the Lutheranes saie the contrary But the Fathers absolutely sett Downe this Maxime that out of the Communion of the Catholicke Church there is nōe saluation reducinge all the certainly and euidence of this proposition that out of the Church there is noe saluation to the seperation of Communion It is true that the seperation of Communion may proceede from either of these two causes to witt either from an error in faith in which case those that forsake the Church are called heretickes or from defect in Charity in which case they are called Scismaticks But because those that sinne either in the one or in the other cannot be soe easily conuinced either of the one or of the other as of the seperation of the Communion of this visible Church eminent aboue all hereticall and Schismaticall sectes whom God would be exposed to the view of all Nations and called Catholicke and to whom he hath affected the promises and prerogatiues of the perpetuall assistance of his holy Spirit For this cause the Fathers and the Councells of Africa Saint AVGVSEINE beinge theire Secretary haue pronounced this sentence soe often before particulariz'd by the penns of the precedinge authors that out of the Catholicke Church there is noe saluation without makinge distinction betweene those that seperate 〈◊〉 from the faith of the Church and those that seperate themselues from her communion for as much as all those that seperate themselues visiblie from the faith of the Church seperate themselues also frō her Cōmunion For there are noe declar'd heretickes but they are withall Schismatickes also Onely there is this difference that heretickes seperate themselues from the Faith and Communion of the Church both together and the Schismatickes onely seperate themselues from her communion although there are fewe Schismatickes who to the separation of communion add not the separation of some pointe of faith For as Sea-crabbs when they see oysters open cast in litle stones within theire shells to keepe them from shuttinge againe that they may haue tyme to deuowre them soe when Schismatickes see a breache made in the Church to hinder it from closeinge againe they caste pointes of heresie into theire Schisme and from Schismaticks become accessorily heretickes Wee esteeme said Saint IEROM the difference betweene heresie and Schisme to be that heresie holdes a peruerse doctrine and Schisme for Episcop all dissention seperates men equallie from the Church which difference may well haue place a while in the beginninge but in tract of time there is noe Schisme that doth not forge to it-selfe some heresie to seeme to haue the iuster cause to seperate it selfe from the Church And therefore when the Emperors speake of the Donatists who are those principally for whom his Maiestie added this clause or haue seperated themselues from her communion they taxe them accessorilie of heresie From thence saith the lawe it is happened that from Schisme heresie is bred And when Saint AVGVSTINE disputes against them he proues to thē that they are not onely

speaking of the Bishops of the hereticks ' It is vnlawfull that they should make ministers who are none themselues Whereby they doe not intend that the Bishops of hereticks who haue drawne their character from the Church be not Bishops as for the impression of the character but that they are none as for the imposition of the authoritie By meanes whereof the English Bishops can pretend noe Episcopall succession from the Church of the antient Fathers as for the succession of authoritie for as much as if the Catholicke Church which was in England and in other places when king Henry the eigth came to the crowne were not the true Catholicke Church the Bishops of the Catholicke communion were not true and lawfull Bishops as concerning authoritie but only as concerning the character and by consequence neither had themselues the succession of Episcopall authoritie nor could transmitt it to those that haue taken it from them By what right saith sainct ATHANASIVS speaking of the Arrians can they be Bishops if they haue bene ordained by those men which themselues doe slander with heresie And contrariwise if the Church that was at the beginning of King Henry the eigth throughout Europe and in manie other partes of the world were the true Church this selfe-same Church hauing disannulled the episcopall authoritie in those from whom the English at this daie pretend to haue had their mission and hauing deposed and anathematized them they had no more lawfull episcopall authoritie by consequēce could not cōferr it to others And besides if that Church were the true Church the English Church at this daie which is gone out from her communion can not be so nor preserue in her the succession of Episcopall authoritie which cannot be transferred out of the Church And for the succession of the character the English according to their doctrine can in noe secte pretend to it for they hold not if they would hold they cannot doe it for as much as they make profession to agree in the faith in the sacraments with the Protestants of France that order conferrs anie other thing then authoritie nor that it imprints anie sacramentall character which is that only which in mission can be transferred giuen out of the Church And so if by their doctrine they could haue the succession of the character they are fallen frō the right of making vse thereof For they communicate with the Puritans of France hold their sheepe for true sheepe and so their pastors for true pastors and for their colleagues and fellowe bretheren Now the ministers of France are not ordained by anie Bishops and so are noe Bishops For hee saith sainct CYPRIAN cannot be a Bishop who succeeding no bodie hath bene ordained of himselfe And not being Bishops haue noe Church since as saith the same sainct CYPRIAN The Church is in the Bishop and the Bishop in the Church and who is not with the Bishop is not in the Church By meanes whereof the English which communicate with them and hold them for their colleagues and fellowe bretheren inuolue themselues into the crime and contagion of all their ecclesiasticall defects and consequentlie fall from all the rightes whereof those with whom they communicate are depriued I add to that that to shew a Church to be successiuelie and representatiuely the antient Catholicke Church it sufficeth not to shew that a part of that Church deriueth the personall successiō of her Bishops from the missiō of the antien Catholicke Church but all the Church that will pretēd the inheritāce successiō of the tittle of catholike must haue the successio of her Bishops deriued frō the 〈◊〉 of the antiēt catholick Church For the Bishops Sea is one as saith S CYPRIAN whereof euerie one holdes his portiō vndiuidedly And elsewhere The Church is one bound togeather by the cement of Bishops adhering the one to the other Now the English doe not pretend alone to cōstitute all the cōmunion of their Church nor to be all the true and pure visible Catholicke Church but doe comprehend into their communion the Protestantes of France as partes of the Bodie of their Church And therefore they canot saie that the Catholicke Church to which they adhere and wherewith they communicate to bee by succession and personall representation the same visible Catholicke Church which was in the time of the fowre first Coūcells Cōtrariwise from this that the other partes of the communion to which the English Church adheres communicate not by succession of persons with the mission of the antient Catholicke Church and consequently are at the least schismatikes it issues that the English which communicate with them cannot cōmunicate with the antient Catholicke Church for none except in error of fact can communicate with the Catholicke Church and with Schismatickes together And finallie I saie that since in all questions of Schismes wee must mount vp to the originall following these wordes of saint AVGVSTINE to the Donatists The question betweene you and vs is where the Church of God should be wee must then begin at the originall why haue you made a schisme The accompt that the English Church will yeeld of the succession of her Bishops ought to be brought to the originall of the Schisme Now therevpon I will aske his Maiestie where the first after the rising vp of Luther and Caluin began in England to separate themselues from the Catholicke Church to imbrace other forme of Religion which they now hold where was this Societie wherein there was together to be found both the succession of Bishops vninterrupted from the first and the succession of doctrine For to goe out from the Church then intituled Catholicke they must range themselues to an other Church which must haue true doctrine and true ministrie by adherence ad communion to the which they might preserue the title of Catholicke and transmitt it to those that should come after them Now where was then this Societie indued with the true doctrine and the true succession of Bishops when the English first separated themselues from the Church intituled Catholike For I will not inquire who is the first from whom she saith that the English Bishops can shew their vninterrupted succession if it be not S AVGVSTIN Bishop of Canterburie whom S. GREGORIE sent thither Nor will I demaund for the preaching of what doctrine S. GREGORIE sent him thither if it were not for the preaching of the same doctrine that was there before the last separation Of the succession of doctrine CHAP. XXIII The continuance of the Kings answere IF the succession of doctrine bee demaunded lett vs mako triall of it THE REPLIE THERE is great difference betweene similitude of doctrine and succession of doctrine Similitude of doctrine is a simple reporte of agreement betweene one doctrine an other but the succession of doctrine properly takē is a deriuation of doctrine continued by a perpetuall vnintermitted chine of teachers and persons taught And