lib. 2. de diuini efficijs Isydorus a Spanyard testifieth for Spayne almost a thousand yeares past that the Churche seruice in his tyme was there in Latyn Conc. 4. Tolet cap. 2.11.13.14 And the fourth councel of Tolet about thesame tyme testifieth the same And for FraÌ„ce testifieth thesame our great learned Englishman Alcuinus M. Alcuin li. de diu offic of Charles the great about the yeare of Christ 840. Bede lib. 1. hist. Angl. cap. 1. And for EnglaÌ„d testifieth Beede before him as after shal be shewed and no man can doubt but that S. Augustine our first Apostle brought in our first seruice from Rome in Latyn Raban lib. 2. de instituâ— clericorum Rupert lib c. de diâ—inis offâ—â—â—js And for Germany testifieth Rabanus Archb. of Moguntia aboue 700. yeares past and Rupertus Abbas some ages after him agayne And the same might be shewed particulerlie of all other particuler countryes by ancient Authors of the same nations and tymes Wherfore if the rule of S. Augustine often by him repeated be true Aug. lib. 4. contra Donatist cap 24. which is that when anything is found generally obserued in the Catholike Churche and no beginning to be found therof that this cometh most certaynlie from the Apostles by tradition And if his other senteÌ„ce be also true Aug. epist. 13â— where he sayth disputare contra id quod vniuersa Ecclesia facit insolentissimae insaniae est It is a poynt of most insolent madnes to dispute against that which the vniuersale Churche doth practise If this I say be true and that the general practise of the Christian world be euident in this behalfe for vsing one of these 3. learned tongues onlie in publique seruice publique vse of scriptures what shal we say of the insolency or madnes of S r. F. his fellowes that not onlie wil dispute and pratle against this practise and custome of the vniuersal Churche but also wil make the breach therof a peculiar blessing whereas notwithstanding those that passe from country to country do find the seruice in particular vulgar languages which they vnderstaÌ„d nothing at all must needs accompt it rather for a curse then a blessing to haue it in those vtterlie vnknowne vulgar laÌ„guages seing that euery man lightlie vnderstandeth somewhat of the Latyn eyther by learning or vse because it is comon to all and taught in euery countrie but not so of euery vulgar language out of the contrey where it is natiue this much of this first poynt or part of my answere THE SECOND PART of the answer about Churche seruice in English conteyning some authorityes aleaged for it but much corrupted and abused by the knight CAP. IX BVT now remayneth the second part which is to examine what the K t. bringeth for proofe of this imagined blessing And first he alleadgeth and vrgeth much the Authorite of S. Hierome who said of his tyme as this man cyteth him that Tota Ecclesia instar toniâ—rui reboat Hieron prol lib. 2. in comâ—â—t in Gal. Amen the whole Churche like a thunder did sound out Amen by which words he would inferre that therfore the publike seruice was in vulgar tongues in S. Hierome tyme but marke good reader by this one example yf there were no more the fraudulent manner of these mens aleadging Fathers For first this speach of S. Hierome is of the Churche of Rome as after shal be proued where no man can doubt but that the seruice was in Latyn and consequentlie the example is euel brought to proue seruice in a vulgar language and secondlie it is no maruayle though the people sounded out Amen in Rome where most men vnderstood the Latyn tongue and those that did not yet might they easelie vnderstand by vse what the word Amen signifyeth and when it is to be vsed And I would aske of our K. whether our Churche also in England where yet the Latyn tongue is not so common as in Rome did not sound out Amen in Queene Maryes dayes and other Catholike tymeâ— in the masse and other seruice when it was in Latynâ— Wil any deny this but eyther an ignorant or impudent man Let him go but ouer sea to Paris where the vulgar tongue is French and heare what the Catholike people do sound out in the publike seruice though it be not in their vulgar language Beed lib. 1. hist. Angl. ca. â— 20. Let him read S. Beed aboue 800. yeares agone who wryting of our Churche of England shewing first that the vse of publike seruice in his dayes was in the Latyn tongue as afterward is proued more at large rehearseth a notable storie Enc. 2. cap. 4. how S. Germanus S. Lupus freÌ„ch Catholike Bishops called in by Catholike Britanes against heretikes did set forth a certayne army against the Pelagians and other Infidels and gat the victorie by repeating the word Alleluâ—a sounded out like a thunder as he sayth by all the Catholike army And yet I do not thinke that S. F. wil go about to proue by this Argument that all that Army vnderstood the Latâ—n tongue or els the hebrue for that Alleluia is an hebrue word and no moâ—e doth it proue that the Roman Churche had their seruice in a vulgar tongue vnderstood by all for that they sounded out Amen and so much of this But now we are further to consider of a notorious fraud of the K. False dealing in alleadging S. Hierome in this place for that as he his do neuer lightlie aleadge any Father or Doctor for their purpose without some shâ—fte or imposture the Fathers being wholie and euery where against them so here S. Hieromes text whole discourse being quite contrary to him he durst not aleadge the whole sentence but culled out the words aleadged and framed them to his purpose Tota Ecclesiae instar tonitrui reboat Amen which words stand not in S. Hierome as he alleadgeth them but are altered and patched vp by him to make them seeme in his fauour leauing out craftilie both that which goeth immediatlie before presentlie doth follow for that they made against him and his whoâ—e cause of protestants religion which here I shal explayne S. Hierome in his proâ—me cyted of his second book vpoÌ„ the Epistle to the Galathians cited here by the knight taketh an occasion to shew vnto the two Virgines Paula and Eustochium to whom he dedicated his book why S. Paul in his Epistle to the Romanes praysed so much their faith Rom. 16. His words in latyn are these S. Hieron proemio lib. 2 comment ad Gal. Romanae plebis laudatur sides vbi alibi tanto sâ—udio frequentia ad Ecclesias ad martyrum sepulchra concurritur Vbi sic ad similitudinem caelestiâ— toniâ—rui Amen reboat The fayth of the people of Rome is praysed by the Apostle For where in any other place of the world do the people runne with so great
exaÌ„ples of pardons abused by Catholyks as S.F. alleageth and both of them false with a notorious imposture about the poysoning of K. Iohn Cap. 15. The speech of the Warder is defended where he calleth the way of saluation by only faith the coÌ„mon cart-way of protestaÌ„ts The truth of which doctrine is examined c. 16. The warning and admonition about this second Encounter first to S. F. Hastings then to O.E. his chaplain and champion Cap. 17. An addition by the publisher of this book wherin he sheweth first a Reason why these two EncouÌ„ters go alone then the dâ—fference he findeth in the wryters and their wrytings thirdly how a man may vse this which heer is sayd to the decisioÌ„ of any coÌ„trouersy of our tyme. Cap. 18. THE SECOND TABLE OF THE CHEIF CONTROVERSIES HANDLED IN THESE two Encounters In the first Encounter WHo are properly Catholyks and who heretyks by the old lawes of Cath. Christian Emperors and whether the lawes made against heretyks by these Emperors do touch protestants or Papists at this day in England annotat vpon the epist. of O.E. cap. 2. num 2. How a man may make a most cleere and euident deduction of Cath. Religion by the forsaid Emperial lawes if no other proof were and whether euer any Christian were punishable before our tymes for sticking to the Pope of Rome in Religion ibid. num 12.13.27.28 c. How old Christian Emperors did promulgate lawes about Religion against the transgressors therof how different a thing it was from that which ProtestaÌ„t Princes are taught to do at this day Ibid. What was the old rule of faith so much esteemed and talked of amoÌ„g the auncieÌ„t fathers how Cathol heretyks may easily euidently be tryed by thesame Cap. 15. Whether the English-parlament rule of faith set downe by O.E. be sufficient to discerne Catholyks from heretiks and whether a paâ—lament can make any rule of faith Cap. 16. num 1.2 c. Whether Canonists do cal the Pope God or no and how false S. Francis and his Chaplayne are found in this point Cap. 2. 3. Enc. 2. cap. 3. num 10.11.12 c. In what sense a creature may be called God and how ConstaÌ„tine the great did cal Pope Siluester so Cap. 2. 3. What wonderful reuerend opinion the auncient Fathers had of the high and diuine power giuen to Priests vpon earth especially to the highest Priest Ibid. Whether protestants haue vnion among them or any meane to make vnion or to find out certainty in matters of faith cap. 4. num 10. Item cap. 5.6.14.15.16.17 What Synods and Councels conferences conuenticles and other meetings protestants haue had throughout the world to procure some shew of vnion but eueâ— haue departed more disagreeing then before Cap. 4. num 12.13 Whether Lutherans and Caluinists may any way be said to be brethreÌ„ or of one Churche as both S. F. Iohn Fox do hold cap. 3 4.5 c. Whether Zwinglians and Caluinists and other Sacramentary Protestans be truly heretiks according to the iudgment and sentence of Martyn Luther and what blessing he giueth them as to bastard children ca. 5. n. 1.2.3 c. Whether English protestants and Puritans do agree in Iesus Christ crucified as S. F. saith or may be accompted true brethreÌ„ of one Churche ca. 6. 10 n. 8. c. 12. n. 6. Whether liberty for all vnlearned to read scriptures in English without difference or restraint be a blessing or a curse profitable or hurtful to the people ca. 8. Enc. 2. c. 3. Whether publyke seruice in English be a hurt or benefit to all sort of people cap. 8. num 7. cap. 9. Whether and how the merits of holy men may stand with merits satisfaction of Christ. Cap. 9. num 7.8.9 Whether aboundance of good works be a peculiar blessing of Protestants or no as S. F. defendeth cap. 10. n. 2.3 4.5 cap. 17. 18. Whether English nobility and commonalty be richer at this day then in old tyme by change of religion cap. 11. num 7.8.9 c. Whether it be a special grace and blessed nature of Protestants to persecute no man for religion Cap. 10. Whether freedome from exactions long peace great power in other countreys great welth of the land and more aboundant multiplying of children then before be special benefits and benedictions brought into England by change of Religion Cap. 11. Whether the vniuersal Churche may be said properly to teach vs or no which O. E. denieth Cap. 11. num 12. Whether the sacrifice of the masse be a new inuention or no and whether the number of 7. Sacraments were not agreed on before the late Councel of Trent as O.E. affirmeth Cap. 13. num 7.8.9.10 c. How farre Catholyke men do depeÌ„d of the Pope for the certainty of their religioÌ„ Ca. 16. n. 17.18.19 Enc. 2. c. 13. n. 16. Whether any one new or old heresy can be prooued truly to be in the doctrine of Papists at this day and how that there be many properly and formally held by Protestants Cap. 16. num 20. What differences of doctrine or opinions may be among Cath. men without heresy or breach of the Rule of faith according to the auncient Fathers Cap. 16. num 6. How coÌ„temptuously the Protestants do speak not only of the old Fathers but also of their owne wryters when they make against them Cap. 17. num 17. Whether temporal blessings entred into England and other countreys round about with the new ghospel and change of the old religion Cap. 12. 13.14 18. How many and how great Inconueniences in matters of State otherwyse haue ensued in England by change of Religion since K. Henry the 8. his departure from the vnion of the Roman Churche Cap. 17. 18. In the second Encounter Whether there were more darknesse ignoraÌ„ce in Q. Maryes tyme former ages then now whether Protestants be better learned then Catholyks Cap. 2. num 18.19 cap. 3.4 6. Whether fryars weâ—e braue lyars in K. Richard 2. his tyme as S.F. saith and what manner of fryars they were to wit corrupted by Wickliffe Cap. 2. num 11. Whether scripture were read generally in English in S. Bede his tyme or no Cap. 3. num 5.6 c. Whether Iohn Husse and Martyn Luther offered disputation to Catholyks or no and whether they were of one and thesame religion or that any of them did agree fully with S. Francis and O. E. in their religion now professed Cap. 3. 4. Whether the Catholyks or Hugonote ministers in the conference at Poysy in France anno Domini 1561. had the better Cap 4. num 14. Whether Catholyks did euer hold it for heresy to read scriptures in English or haue euer put men or women to death for that fact only Cap. 4. 5. 6. num 12. 15. cap. 9. num 3. Whether the auncient Fathers did vse to pray to Saints and
and discretion wil be of my opinion that whatsoeuer good effectes haue come to our common wealth by her Maiesties gouernment or rare partes of Princelie commendations A note to be diligently obserued and which truelie may be termed blessings might haue byn as great as all these or farre greater vnder Catholike religion and especiallie in her Maiestie if it had pleased almightie God to haue blessed her and the realme with the continuance therof and contrariwyse whatsoeuer cursings and calamities on the contrarie syde haue ensued or may ensue herafter by the change of religion these are proper effectes and necessary consequeÌ„ts of the new ghospel and not of any defect in her Maiesties gouernment and this foundatioÌ„ being presupposed in all that I shal say let vs passe on to examine in a word or two the most ridiculous vanitie of these fiue blessings folowing which he calleth corporal accompting his former spiritual For the first of them which is deliueraÌ„ce from intolerable exactions â— Blessing deliuerance from exactions if he meane it of the realme in general as his marginal note may seeme to importe which often yet disagreeth in sense from his text let the Escheker books be compared of the tributes payments contributions and exactions that were vsed in EnglaÌ„d in former dayes before this new ghospel came in and since I meane of the summes that were payd in old tymes when Catholike religion bare rule and protestants were not knowne those that later Princes by reason of troubles warres suspicions and other like occasions rysing especially by difference in religion haue byn forced to take of their subiects since the yeare of Christ 1530. or there about at what tyme K. Henrie began vpon the aduise incitation of Cranmer Cromwel and other Protestants to breake with the Pope and churche of Rome let these summes I say be coÌ„ferred and then our knight if he be a good Auditor or Eschequer man wil for very shame stryke out this blessing and mentyon it no more But yf he meane this blessing especiallie or principallie of our Clergie men this day in England for that they pay nothing now to the Pope as in the texte and prosecution of this blessing is set downe then let the wealth and ease of the old and new Clergie be compared togither or rather the pouertie and beggerie of the one with the honor and splendor of the other and so this controuersie wil quicklie be decyded and S.F. beaten from this first corporal blessing of his new Cleargie to a Spiritual which is Matth. â— Beati pauperes spiritu blessed are the poore in spirit for in body and purse they are already miserable as them-selues euery where complayne The pouertie and myserie of the protestaÌ„t cleargie none more grieuously or more spitefullie in secret as before hath byn touched then his champion O.E. alleaging these reasons that the most of them hauing much to pay both to Prince Patron in steed of the Pope and litle to receyue the gleebe lands of their benefices being commonlie swept to their hands and their charge of women and children so great as the parishes do commonlie feele when they dy their beggerie must needs be intollerable wheras on the other syde in Catholyke Countryes yf they contribute any thing to the Pope as to their head for better maintenance of his state and gouerment of the whole Churche it is neyther so great a matter and commonlie â—â—t out of the greater benefices that caÌ„ better beare it and in recompence of that agayne he defendeth them against the intrusion or vsurpation of seculer men vpoÌ„ their liuings which importeth them much more as by experience of Catholyke Countryes and Kyngdomes is seene then is the contribution they make to Rome though it were so great and greuous as our K. maketh it in K. Henrie the 3. his â—yme alleaging a certayne complaynt of our English Churche to Pope Innocentius 4. in a general Councel at Lions an 1245. against his collectors officers in England which being taken out of Iohn Fox whom this man yet wil not name maketh no more against the Popes Authoritie A calumniation of Ihon Fox act â—on Pag. 241.242 c. nor yet conuinceth him of abuse that way then yf at this day the same complaynt should be made by the Churche of Spayne as diuers tymes it is against the lyke collectors or officers there or when any complaint is made in England of any of her Ma ties officers that abuse themselues in their collections for couetousnes vpon the Clergie at this day wherof I presuppose there would not want complaints if all Ministers should be willed to vtter their greifes therin And what then doth Syr F. and Fox vrge so much against the Pope the complaynt of some in England against his officers at that tyme VVhy Pope Innocentius required a collection of mony for recouering the holy land when the publike necessitie of christendome oppressed by Turkes and Saracens inforced Pope Innocentius as general Father of all to lay some contribution vpon the cleargie of England and other countryes for defence therof to which effect also in the very same councel of Lions he had appoynted and declared king Lewes of France for Supreme general and yet was not the summe exacted such nor so great but that more money in these our dayes hath byn sent out of the realme in one yeare by these meÌ„nes liking and good approbation for defence of heresie and rebellion in France Flanders Scotland and other countryes theÌ„ was in this many other tymes in those dayes for maintenance of the whole Churche and Christianitie and yet coÌ„playneth not our knight of this which subiects now feele for that it is present but of the other past and gone which they feele not wherby is seene his indifferencie that they seek nothing but matter of complayâ—â— and cauilling against the Pope and hâ—â— doings As for long peace which is an other blessing of his both sweet profitable as he termeth it â— blessing long peace I know not what or why I should answere seing Aristotle teacheth that to go about to proue or improue by reasonâ— that which is open and manifest to our senses is to wearie reason and offer iniurie to sense who seeth not therfore what hath passed in England since protestant religion first entred in K. Henryes dayes for if we talke oâ— domestical styrres and tumultes among our people we haue had more within these 70. yeares to wit from the one or two and twentith of K. Henryes raigne downwards vnder him and his three children respecting religioÌ„ only then in a thousand before his dayes and more then in many ages for any cause whatsoeuer setting a syde the contention for the crowne betweene the two houses oâ— Yorke and Lancaster which cannot go by reason in this accompt for that it was a particular quarrel of certayne Princes of the bloud royal not rysing of
Priests monasteries both of men and women and for proof therof bringeth out Boccas an old bawdy Italian Poet Pallengenius an other as lasciuious in heresie as the other in Lecherie and besyds this he citeth also a worke without an author called Onus Ecclesiae wherin many abuses in lyfe and maÌ„ners by way of compassioÌ„ are complayned on with desyre of amendment and with this doth the minister think that he hath played the man and proued sufficientlie that the new ghospel hath brought in great reformation of lyfe and manners and that now the world goeth better then before for good works wherin as I said the best iudge may be the common sense feeling and experience of men that lyue in the world for that descending to particulers in so long a circuit as is the world is both infinite vncertayne and odious yet yf I would follow this fowle mouthed minister in ripping vp vnsauery matters of his cleargie as he fayneth amplifyeth of ours I might go but to publike recordes of his men punished by publike iustice for their outragious behauiour in that behalfe I meane in that very point of carnalitie which they most obiect to ours in most false manner and for auoyding wherof in them-selues each one of them haue allowed his remedy most desyred called by them-selues his vessel of ease though with no smal disease and disaster of the common wealth as before hath byn shewed But to leaue this poynt and to come to the second which is about the temporal respects whether the new ghospel and change of old religion haue brought losse or gayne hurtes or benefits conuenieÌ„ces or inconueniences in this behalfe the matter is not much more doubtful then in the former conference of good lyfe and works For albeyt both the K t. and his procter do put downe certayne temporal benefits as blessings receyued by their new ghospel yet are they both light vayne in them-selues and not agreeing betwene them-selues neyther do they satisfie or answere the great hurts and inconueniences set downe on the contrary side by the warder towards the end of this his first encounter which being very weighty and of great consideratioÌ„ the K t. leapeth ouer theÌ„ altogeather as before hath byn signified but the minister chattereth here and there after his fashon but far from answering any substantial point therof which thing to the end yow may the better perceyue I shal take payne to repeat againe in this place the former hurts receyued by chaÌ„ge of religion meÌ„tioned by the warder in these words For better vnderstanding of the controuersy in question Pag. 7. and 8. men are wont to bring into consideration two poynts Temporal effects by change of religion First what is likely to haue byn or fallen out yf the change of religion had not byn made in her Ma ties tyme and then what hath insued vpon the change made To the first they say that if as her Ma tie entred most happily and ioyfully into the crowne of England by general consent of all and promoted especially by the peculiar forces of Catholyks that were at that day most potent without comparison and that as her Ma tie entred Catholikely that is to say shewing her selfe in all points of religion and behauâ—our a Catholyke according as she had done also before in her sister Q. Maryes raigne and was now crowned and annoynted Catholikly by a Cath. Bishop at a Cath. masse and other like circumstances yf she had continued that course stil not yeilded to the persuasions of some new councelours against the iudgment of all her oâ—d as indeed she was hardly brought â—o yeld ther-vnto at the beginning for that she foresaw by her wisdome diuers of the inconueniences that sitheÌ„ce haue ensued then say these men yf this had byn so both her Ma tie and the realme had byn most happy at this day and in particular they alleadge these benefits following which of all probability would haue fallen vpon vs. This is the Warders profer in this behalf and then do ensue The vaine chatteâ—â—ng of O.E. 8. special considerations of moment to be wayed in this affayre which after we shal lay forth and examine in order But now to consider the chattering of our parrat minister for denial of all these things I can noe wayes make yow better apprehend yt then to tel yow of a certayne commedy which once I saw in Venice yf wel I remeÌ„ber wherin the Vice of the play had taken for his inuention to contradict euery thing that his fellow should say and so when the one said good morrow to the people the other said good euen when one said it was a fayre day the other it was a foule when the one said it was noone the other answered it was night when the one affirmed that the Sunne shyned cleerly the other would needs hold that it was the moone and so he passed forward in contradicting all that the other affirmed vntil the people being wearyed cryed out that the foole should be thrust downe for he marred the play And this is our case now O.E. is set vpon a new deuise to drop denials with his aduersary and to contradict whatsoeuer he saith or howsoeuer yow haue hard what the warder hath wrytten in this his preface harken then how this fellow coÌ„tradicteth and with what and how good reasons The Warder saith that her Matie entred most happily and ioyfully to the crowne of England by general consent of all A comparison of a vice in a play The minister saith it was not so for that it greeued the Papists exceedingly The other said she was promoted especially by the peculiar forces of Catholyks that were at that day most potent without comparison Pag 2â— this man denyeth it giueth this goodly reason what needed force if all were willing she should be crowned The other saith further that her Ma tie entred Catholikly shewing her selfe in all points a Catholyke This fellow denyeth yt with this reason For if she had so done why should the popish prelats feare any alteration The Warder furthermore saith she was crowned and annoynted Catholikely by a Catholyke Bishop at a Cath. masse O. E. denyeth all and sayth she declared plainly she would not masse which how loud a ly yt is not only her Ma tie can testifie but as many as yet liue and were present at that act and him-selfe presently touched as yt were with some shame of this asseueration addeth But were yt true yet his coniecture of happines is vayne c. Whervnto I answere that yf it were true then was O.E. false in denying yt and as for the vanity of the coniecture that yf masse and old religion had byn continued in England many inconueniences had byn auoyded we shal try the matters in the particulars that doe ensue but in the meane space consider the vanity of this vice for bringing in for instance to the contrary Francis Charles
Henry Kings of FraÌ„ce the States of the low countreys the people of Portugal who haue fallen into diuers troubles warres and disasters not-withstanding they contynued the masse and were Catholyks in religion But I would aske O. E. whether these troubles came by their chauÌ„ge of religion or noe For yf they did not then are they impertinent to our purpose which is to shew that by change of religion commonly do ensue troubles but not that only by this meanes disasters are incurred as though there were no other for that Catholyke Princes people also may incurre troubles by other meanes then by change of religion but they auoyd those which this change doth bring with yt Change of religion in France and Flanders Wherfore this noddy is discouered to speake nothing to the purpose in bringing in those fiue examples wherof foure not-with-standing are wholy against him-selfe for that all the troubles which he mentioneth to haue happened to Catholyke Princes and people in France and Flaunders haue byn occasioned by change of religion inforced vpon them by others as the world knoweth and not by â—heir owne willes and so hauing seene what â—his minister hath answered to the Warders â—reface of temporal hurts we may imagine â—ow substantially he wil satisfie afterward â—o the points them-selues wherof the first â—ower are those that follow And first saith the warder yf religion had not byn chaunged her Ma tie at this day had had a most fâ—orishing Kingdome VVarnvvord Pag. 8. vnited both to her and amonge them-selues in religion 1 Strength and felicity by vnion iudgment affection fidelity and frend-â—hip as other realmes Cath. of the world are seene to bee as ours for aboue a thousand yeares togeather with much honour and felicity is knowne to haue remayned 2 Security Heerof had ensued that none of these feares and terrors of conquests inuasions assaults treasons conspiraties the lyke which this VVach-man endeauoreth to lay before vs had euer come in conâ—ideration for that England vnited in yt selfe hath euer synce it was a monarchy made other Kingdomes and prouinces round abouâ— yt to feare her forces as by matters happened in France Ireland and Scotland for many ages is euident and she neuer greatly feared any Thirdly England had had her Ma tie at this day by all likelyhood a ioyful mother of many faire and princely children 3 Issue of her Maiestie for that the principal cause of her graces not marrying is to be presumed to haue proceeded of the differenâ— religion of forrayne princes who desired thâ— same on the one side and one the other thâ— inequality of blood in her owne subiects for such aduancement For to attribute this great resolution of heâ— Ma tie to the only loue of sole lyfe and maydâ—-head I doubt how yt can be iustifiable seinâ— that amoÌ„g Catholyks where such profesioâ— is more praysed and practised they vse sometymes to draw out euen vowed nunnes from â—heir cloysters to marriage for so weightie a â—ause as is the sauing of succession in so great a â—rowne as England is knowne to be And â—mong Protestants virginity is not of that neâ—essity or meryt as for yt to incurre so great â—â—conueniences notwith-standing the base â—nd seruile flattery of this crouching Knight â—ho casteth in now and then the memory of 〈◊〉 mayden Queene without respecting the â—eadly wound which his countrey receyueth â—â—erby Foorthly of this had followed the sure estaâ—â—ishment of the succession of this imperial â—â—owne in the blood and race of the vnited â—â—yal houses of York and Lancaster 4 EstablishmeÌ„t of successioÌ„ and of 〈◊〉 lâ—ne of the noble K. Henry the 7. which â—ne being now to end with her Ma tie in the â—â—rect discent is lyke to bring great daungers 〈◊〉 the realme For albeyt there want not of â—â—llateral branches yet their causes are otherâ—ayes so implicated for diuers â—espects but â—â—ecially by difference of religion which had â—uer happened yf the chaunge had not byn â—ade as no man can tel what wil be the end â—â—d most men do feare extreame calamityes â—â—erby Thus saith he Wher-vnto for the first two â—â—ints our minister answereth nothing in â—â—ect First secoÌ„d inconuenience feare daunger but that the VVarder mistaketh S. F. meaning 〈◊〉 think him to haue spoken any thing of feare eyâ—â—â— of forrayne inuasions or domestical treasons but â—â—at is this to the purpose had yt not byn better that all this had byn aduoyded Buâ— heare him further Pag. 30. But suppose saith he Poperâ— had byn continued how could this noddy haue giuen 〈◊〉 warrant that we should haue byn neyther oppugâ—eâ— by enemyes abroad nor by traytors at home VVaâ—nâ— Henry the 3. of France excommunicated by the Popâ— oppugned by his subiects murdered by a Dominicaâ— fryar notwith-standing his zeale in popery Marke heere the mannes wit there be twâ— parts of his demaund the first how the Waâ—der could warrant c. wher-vnto is easiâ—â— answered that such hurts as came by alteratiâ—â— of religion as diuision of mynds iudgemenâ— and affections c. had byn easily warranteâ— yf religion it self had not byn altered The second part about K. Henry the thirâ— of Fraunce is ridiculous About HeÌ„ry late K. of France for he was not troubled for changing of religion him-selfe bâ— for being presumed to fauour them vnder-haâ—â— that meant to change religion for the deaâ— of noble Princes as all the world knowetâ— hauing as diuers write giuen his oath aâ—â— fidelitie to the contrary and receyued the Sâ—crament for confirmation therof and yet yt eyther presumption or ignorance in tâ—â— compagnion so bodly to affirme that the Poâ—â— did excoÌ„municate the said King for this faâ—â— which excommunication no man euer yâ— saw published To the third principal poynt about the prâ—bability of noble issue in her Ma tie yf chanâ—â— of religion had not byn 3 Inconuenience lack of iâ—sue royal this parasite prâ—leth as yf he were Iack daw shewing wil 〈◊〉 talke but lacking wit to say any thing to the â—urpose telling vs only that yf it had pleased â—er Ma tie to haue married she might as wel â—aue marryed in protestant religion as in Caâ—holyke and that their women may haue fayre â—rincely children as wel as ours and that â—â—uers Cath. Princes did seeke her marriage â—nd amongst others the K. of Spayne And â—hat the french K. sister at this day is marryed â—hough she be a protestant and that Q. Mary â—as marryed and yet had no children and diâ—ers other such trifling toyes which we deny â—ot but say that they are impertinent and â—o not touch the substance it selfe of the â—atter meant by the Warder which is that 〈◊〉 a Cath. state there would haue byn other â—anner of instance made to her Ma tie other â—ounsel and resolution of learned men layd â—efore her for her obligation to marry in such case for sauing of a common wealth
poynts contayned in this matter the one we haue gotten that in some cases spiritual prelates though subiects in temporalityes may reprehend and resist yea chasten also by Ecclesiastical punishment their liege lords and temporal princes without being traytors for the same The second whether the examples be like we are to examine a litle in this place And first I would aske our minister that denyeth the fitnes of the examples The comparison of S. Thom vvith S. Ambrose Hillary and other fathers as also his master that chafeth at them what and where about were the foresayd Saints contentions with their temporal Princes were they not for the defence of the lawes of Christ and his Churche did not S. Iohn Baptist withstand Herod his temporal Lord to his face for breaking the lawes of wedlock and was not the strife of S. Ambrose with Valentinian his Emperour first for that he would not deliuer vp a Catholike Churche to the vse of Arrians as he and his mother had commaunded and secondly for that he would not giue vp the treasure and vessels of his Churche into the Emperors owne hands as he required Heare his owne testimony thereof S. Ambr. in orat in AuxoÌ„ de Basilicia traden Cum esset proposituÌ„ saith hee vt ecclesiae vasa iam traderemus c. when it was proposed vnto vs in the Emperours name that wee should deliuer him the vessel of our churche I gaue this answere If any thing of my owne were demaunded eyther land howse gold or siluer I would easely yeild vnto him any thing that were belonging vnto mee But from the Churche of God I told him that I could take nothing for that I had receyued it not to deliuer but to keep And that with this I had respect also of the Emperours saluation For that it was neyther expedient for mee to giue nor for him to receyue Accipiat ergo vocem liberi sacerdotis c. Let his Maiestie then receyue the word of a free priest if he wil haue care of his owne saluation let him cease to offer iniury to Christ. Lo here the answeare of an ecclesiastical Prelate but a temporal subiect to his highest Prince doth not this seeme to bee speach of some Catholyke Bishop to a Protestant Prince that would inuade Churche goods possessions against which poynt S. Ambrose was so resolute to stand as he sayth in the same place that yf sorce were vsed towards him his flesh might bee troubled but not his mynd and that he was readie yf the Emperour would vse his kingly authority in offring violence to stuffer that which belonged to a good Priest to beare And what doth this differ now from the cause of S. Tho. of Canterbury who stood vpon defence of his Ecclesiastical iurisdictioÌ„ against K. Henry his temporal Prince that vsurped the same Heare the words of S. Thomas himself vsed to K. Henry in a CouÌ„cel at Chynon in FraÌ„ce as D. Houeden sets them downe Rog. Houe in vit Henr. 2. pag. 285. Non deberetis Episcopis praecipere absoluere aliquem vel excommunicare trahere Clericos ad saecularia examina iudicare de decimis de ecclesits interdicere Episcopis ne tractent de â—ransgressione fidei vel Iuramenti c. Yow ought not to take vpon yow to commaund Bishops to absolue or excomunicate any man neyther to draw cleargie men to the examinatioÌ„s of seculars neyther to iudge of tythes or of churches or to forbid Bishopâ— to treat of transgressioÌ„s against faith or against oathes broaken or the like c. Doe not wee seme to heare in this place the voice of S. Ihon Baptist to his K. Herod It is not lawful for the to haue the wyfe of thy brother S. Marc. 1â— Or is not this agreable to the speach of S. Ambrose to Valentinian that he could not force him to deliuer any churche or holy vessels thereof and that he would dy in that quarrel against him But let vs heare an other controuersy of his with another Emperour more deuout religious then the former The contention of S. Ambrose vvith Theodosius the Emperor to wit Theodosius the great in Millain for that he would not do publike pennance prescribed by this holy B. to him for the excesse in punishing those of Thessalonica and had not this beene rebellioÌ„ and treason by Protestants law for a priest to driue his king and Emperour that by their diuinity was head of their churche to publike penance and to go out of his Churche as S. Ambose did compel Theodosius to go out of the churche of Millan But let vs go forward and see the rest of examples before touched Pallad in vit Chrysost. was not the contention of S. Chrisostome with Arcadius and Honorius his Princes Emperours and with their wyues when he kept some of them by force out of his churche about ecclesiastical liberty and iurisdiction also And that also of S. Athanasius Hilarius against Constantius their Emperour and supreme head also according to the Protestants opinion in spiritual matters for that he fauored Arrians deposed Catholike Bishops and made himself vmpyre in ecclesiastical affayres as Protestants Princes doe now a dayes Did S. Tho. Primate of England say or write more to K. Henry at any tyme then S. Gregorie Nazianzen a particular Archbishop sayd vnto his Emperour that was present and angry with him Nazian orat ad Ciues Imper. â—rasceÌ„tem Vos quoque potestati meae meisque subsellijs lex Christi subiecit scio se esse ouem mei gregis sacri gregis sacram ouem Yow also o Emperour the law of Christ hath made subiect vnto my power and to my tribunal I know thee to bee a sheep of my flock a sacred sheep of a holy flock If Nazianzene had sayd this to an English King or should doe at this day how would our Protestants Prince-parasytes cry out and say that he were a proud Prelate as they say of S. Thomas The cheif and onelie contention of king Henry with the Archbishop as before in part you haue heard was about ecclesiastical iurisdiction as the articles set downe by all wryters doe testify The articles vpon vvhich S. Tho. disagreed vvith the king as namely that no Bishop might appeale to the Sea Apostolike without licence of the king that no seruant or tenant holding of the king might be excommunicated without his licence that no Bishop should bee able to punish any man for periury or breaking his faith that all cleargie men might bee forced to secular iudgments as all controuersyes also pertâ—yning to tythes and other like cases And now yf these controuersyes should haue fallen out as in part they did betweene the auncient christian Emperours and the holy Bishops before named would they not think you haue stood in them with no lesse feruour then S. Thomas did But now let vs heare and examine how Syr F. doth proue this holy Archbishop to bee a
traytor Thus he writeth of the beginning of the controuersy There was as authors doe affirme in that time of Henrie the second Pag 56. more then a hundred murthers besydes other felonyes proued vpon the cleargie which when the king would haue punished according to the lawes of the land A fâ—lse and slâ—undâ—rous beginning of the 〈…〉 Becket opposed himself and beardeth the king in this so iust an action vnder title of standing for the libertyes of the Churche from this strauÌ„ge ground these proceedings ensued In which words of the knight there is to bee noted first that where he saith authors doe affirmè that more then a hundred murders besides other â—ellonies were proued vpon the cleargie no other author is found to mention any such thing but onelie Nubergensis who yet doth not say that they were proued vpon the clergie but his words are Nuberg hist. Angl. l. 2 16. that it was said to haue byn tould the king at a certaine time that aboue a hundred murders had byn committed within the kingdome of England since his raigne by Cleargie men In which woords as you see NubergeÌ„sis doth not say that it was true or that it was proued as our knight doth and secondly he speaketh of the whole tyme of king Henries raigne vntil this contention which was some 14. or 15. yeares and thirdly the falling out of the Archbishop with the king was not for that he would not haue these clergie men punished if they had offended as wickedly this knight giueth to vnderstand saying presently after This proud prelate durst protect fellons and murderers against the king and iustice of the lanâ— but the controuersy was only about the maner of punishing those that did offend and by what iudges and iurisdiction they should be punished to wit whether by ecclesiastical or temporal power for that the Archbishop affirmed that equity required that clergie men offending should first be iudged condemned and degraded by ecclesiastical power according both to the cannon lawes as also the municipal lawes of the land confirmed by all former Christian Kings â—rom the first conuersion of England and that they being thus condemned should be deliuered to secular power for executâ—on of the sentence which is a case that faâ—leth out dayly in Spayn Italy France and other Cath. contreys where Bishops do defend their Eccâ—es iurisdiction in punishing Eccles. persons taking them also by force of censures out of secular iudges hands when occasioÌ„ is offered without all note of rebellion or treason And no lesse was this law of the realme of England confirmed by ancient parliaments and other antiquities then were the secular lawes for which S r. F. standeth and fondly calleth the defence of eccles lawes treason and rebellion Wherfore hauing set downe so false a relation of the beginning of this controuersy falsifying NubergeÌ„sis as yow see in many points he doth prosecute the same with lyke vntruth as presently yow shal see And first he beginneth with a certayne letter of Maud the Empresse vnto the Archbishop which she wrote at the instance of the King her sonne and vpoÌ„ the informatioÌ„ of such courtyers as were contrary to the Bishop and his cause In which letters she chargeth him that to vse S â— F. owne words as much as in him lay he went about to disinherit the King and depriue him of his crowne Whervnto I answere that truth it is Iohn Fox hath such a letter of thesaid Empresse Maud without telling where Pag â—8 or whence or how he had it or where we may read it for in none of all the authors aboue mentioned I do fynd it Yet one thing I would haue the reader to note S. F vntrue dealing in cyting matters against S. Thom. which testifieth the continuance of S r. F. vntrue dealing in this affayre that wheras in Iohn Fox the whole charge of the empresse against the Archbishop is mitigated by this pareÌ„thesius as the report is which sheweth that these were but suspitions only and reports of his enimies Fox Pag. 201. S r. F. hath left out the parenthesis as the report is as though she had charged him vpon her owne knowledge which is no true dealing or right meaning as yow see But let vs heare further S r. F. his words pretending a more certayne proof of treason rebellion in S. Thomas Pag. 58. But if the Empresse saith he might be thought to speak partialy on the K. her sonnes behalf yet the two Card. sent by the Pope to heare all this controuersy out of question wil not condemne him without iust cause and yet in a letter sent from them to the Pope they do condemne him c. Yf S. F. proue himself a true K â— in verifying this one poynt which here he sayth I am to pardon much of that which hath passed before But yf in this matter of so great moment he be taken in lyke falshood who wil then trust him hereafter Let vs examine then the matter I wil haue none other euideÌ„ces or witnesses but his owne woords for presently after he setteth downe a part of the letter of VVilliam and Otho Card. sent by Pope Alexander to heare the cause betwene the King the Archbishop and hauing trauayled therin the King being in Normandie and the Archb. at Paris they found the matter more hard then they imagined to compouÌ„d False dealing of Syr Fraunces for that the Archbishop demaunded restitution to his lyuings for himself and for his frends and reuocation of certayne lawes lately made preiudicial to ecclesiastical iurisdiction before he could end the matter wherwith the-sayd Card. being somwhat displeased for that they desired to carry with them to the Pope the glory of this accord made by them and for that the King had much gayned their good wil by liberallity towards theÌ„ for these causes they wrote to the Pope somwhat fauorably in the Kings behalf but yet nothing condemning the Archbishop as vntruly out K â— doth auow which now I shal shew out of the woords of their owne letter alleaged heere by S.F. which are these VVilliam and Otho Card. of the Churche of Rome to Alexander the Pope The letter of the tvvo Cardinals to the Pope â— VVe comming to the land of the K. of England found the controuersy betwixt him and the Archbishop of Canterbury more sharp and vehement then we would for the King the greater part about him said that the Archbishop had sâ—yâ—red vp the french King greuously against him as also the Earle of Flaunders his kinsman who was very louing and kynd to him before whome he made his open aduersary ready to wage warre against him as is by diuers euidences most certayne c. These are the words of the Card. by S. F. relation which supposing they were truly alleaged yet he that shal consider and ponder them wel wil see that out of them no more can be vrged against the Archbishop but
that the King and those about him did say that the Archbishop had styrred vp the K. of Fraunce and the Earle of Flanders against them and that this was held by them for most certayne vppon diuers euidences But what these euidences were none of them do set down So that heere is no condemnation at all from the Card themselues but only that they relate what the King and his part sayd and yet yow must note that S. Francis besydes other euil translation of the words hath wilfully corrupted the last clause of all to make it seeme as though it proceeded from the Card. iudgment to wit Quadrileg de vita B. Thom. lib. 5. cap. venientes as is by diuers euidences most certayn wheras in latyn after the first words Asserebat Rex sucrum pars c. The king with the greater part of his affirmed that the Archbishop had done this c. yt followeth Sicut sibi pro ceâ—to constabat euidâ—ntibus apparebat indicijs as to them it was held for certayne and appeared by euident signes Out of which woords S. F. of purpose cutteth of both sibi and indicijs False dealing of Syr Francis to them signes For that by the first yt was euident that this was spoken in the name of the King and his frends and not of the Card. and by the second appeareth that the euidence which the King and his had of this matter and accusation was founded only in signes and coniectures which being euident to our K â— he did not only stryke out the sayd words but maketh also a seuere inference vpon the rest that are left mangled by him self as yow haue seene his inference is this Pag. Ibid. Now sayth he for a subiect to styrre vp forrein states to make warre vpon his soueraygne and countrey was at all tymes high treason but that Becket did so by the Card confession was by diuers euidences most certayne Therfore Becket not now his enemies but his brethren the sonnes of his owne mother being iudges was a traytor Lo heer the inuincible argument of our learned knight yf any man can trust him hereafter vpon his woords I shal much maruaile seing him so shamelesse in a matter so euideÌ„t For who discouereth not the impudency of his second proposition when he sayeth that Becket did so by the Card. confession whâ—ras the Card. confesse no such thing but only say that the king and his people did affirme it nether did the Card. say as our K t. falsly chargeth them that the matter was certayne to them by diuers euidences but only that the king sayd yt was certayn or seemed so to him by diuers euident signes and coniectures Shamefully then hath our K t. abused the authority of these Card. as he doth comonly all authors that come through his haÌ„ds And with this I end this controuersy of S. Thomas his cause with the King which cause whatsoeuer the K t. tatleth to the coÌ„trary yet was yt neuer accouÌ„pted treason or named so by any author that wrote in that tyme eyther frend or foe nor shal S. F. be able to alleadge me any one instance to the contrary before Luthers dayes And as for the King himself though he pursued him eagerly for that he would not yeild to his desyre touching Eccles. iurisdiction yet neuer is it read that he euer called or couÌ„pted him for a traytor nor any forrayne Prince whatsoeuer And within 8. yeares after his death as before I noted both he and Lewes the K. of Fraunce went in Pilgrimage to his tombe at Canterbury which is lykely they would not haue done nether the one nor the other yf they had reputed him for a traytor Iohn Stow putteth downe the relation thus The 27. of August both the Kings came to Canterbury Stovv anno Domini 1179 reg Hent 21. 25. where they were with due honor receaued c. Lewes K. of France offered vpon the tombe and to the shryne of Thomas Becket a riche cup of gold he gaue also that renowned pretious stone that was called the regal of France which K. Henry the 8. put afterwards in a ring wore yt on his thombe c. Thus saith Stow out of other authors And whether king Lewes of France would haue taken a iorney into England to the shryne of a man that he knew and had talked withal few yeares before and would haue offered such pretious gyfts yf he had suspected him for a traytor or that his miracles had byn faynd as after Sir F. affirmeth and whether king Henry himself being no way forced therunto wold haue accompained him in such an action to his owne disgrace who commonly was reputed to haue byn the cause of his death yf he had held him for a traytor let euery man iudge And so we shal passe from his point to another about his miracles wherin the cauillers shew themselues more vayne conscienslesse and malitious yf it may be then in the former OF S. THOMAS HIS myracles and what may be thought of them and other such lyke with the malitious corruption and falshood vsed by Iohn Fox and S. F. to discredit them There is handled also the different manner of Canonising sainctes in their and our Churche CAP. XI AMONG many other arguments that I vsed in the VVardword for the holynes of this Archbishop to all which this VVastword answereth no one word at all I said also that many miracles haue byn recorded by graue authors and publike testimony of the whole Iland 〈◊〉 3. and of forraine wryters to haue byn wrought by God at his sepulcher and otherwise by his intercession in witnes of his sanctity Vpon which words Syr F. taketh occasion with his heretical spirit of incredulity to iest and blaspheme at all miracles of Pope-made Saints for that is his coÌ„tumelious terme but with what reason truth prudeÌ„ce or piety we shal somwhat here examine by this occasion noting first two poynts to this purpose The first that the miracles of S. Thomas doÌ„ne presently after his death had a circuÌ„staÌ„ce annexed vnto them Tvvo especial confiderations in the miracles of S. Thom. which greatly confirmeth their certainty to wit that they brought with them the publike reproof of one of the greatest kings that day in Christendome if not the greatest of all which was king Henry the second by whose fault he was put to death who laboured with all his power for auoyding that infamy eyther to suppresse or improue the miracles that fel out And who knoweth not what the force and fauour of such a Prince may do in such a cause and yet was the multitude and euidency of S. Thom. his miracles such as they brake through all obstacles that the king could put against them and so conquered himself also as he finally yeilded and went to his sepulcher wept did pennance as by all authors is euident This then is the first poynt of consideration in this affayre
meanes and certaine rule wherby to attayne thervnto Cap. 14. VVhat O.E. answereth to the former chapter about diuision and vncertainty in religion Cap. 15. Of the English rule of belief set downe by O. E. and what substance or certainty it hath and how they do vse it for excluding Puritanes and other Protestants And of diuers shameful shiftes of O. E. Cap. 16. It is further shewed by diuers cleare examples that O. E. and his fellowes do plainly dispaire of all certaine meane of rule to try the truthe among themselues or with vs. Cap. 17. Of the fruits vertue and good workes by change of religion as also of eight temporal inconueniences which may be called curses or maledictions insued by thesame and how O. E. behaueth himself in this controuersie Cap. 18. The VVarning or admonition to Sir F. H. and his as also to his aduocate proctor O. E. vpon this first Encounter of blessings Cap. 19. THE SECOND TABLE OF THE CHEIF CONTROVERSIES HANDLED in this book The first Encounter WHo are properlie Catholikes and who heretikes by the old lawes of Catholike Christian Emperors and whether the lawes made against heretikes by those Emperors do touch Protestants or Papists at this day Encount 1. cap. 2. num 2. and anâ—it vpon the Epistle of O. E. to the reader How Catholikes heretikes may be easelie euidentlie tryed by the old rule of faith among the Fathers Encount 1. cap. 15. VVhether the Englisâ— Parlament rule set downe by O.E. be sufficient to discerne Cathol froÌ„ heretikes or one sect of heretykes from another Enc. 1. cap. 16. and 17. VVhether Canonists do cal the Pope God or no and how false Sir F. and his Chaplayne O. E. are found in this point Enc. 1. cap. 2. 3. VVhether there be any certaine rule of faith to try matters in controuersie and what that rule is Enc. 1. cap. 15. VVhether Protestants haue vnion among them or any meane to make vnion or to fynd out certaintie in matters of faith Enc. 1. cap. 4. num 10. Item cap. 5.6.14.15.16.17 VVhether Lutherans and Caluinists may any way be said to be brethren or of one Churche Encount 1. cap. 3.4 5. VVhether English Protestants Puritans do agree iâ— Iesus Christ crucified as Sir F saith or may be accompted true brethren and of one Churche Enc. 1. cap. 6. cap. 10. num 8. cap 12 â—â—m 6. VVhether libertie for all vnlearned to read scriptures in English without difference or restraint be a blessing or a curse to the people Encount 1. cap. 8. and Enc. 2. VVhether publike seruice in English be a hurt or benefit to all sorts of people Enc. 1. cap. 8. nu 7. cap. 9. at large VVhether aboundance of good workes be a peculiar blessing of Protestants Encount 1. cap. 10. num 2.3.4.5 cap. 17. 18. VVhether it be a special grace and blessed nature of ProtestaÌ„ts to persecute no maÌ„ for religion Enc. 1. c. 10. VVhether fredome from exactions long peace great power in other countreys great wealth of the land and more aboundant multiplying of children then before be special benefits and benedictions brought into England by change of religion Enc. 1. cap. â—1 VVhether the sacrifice of the Masse be a new inuention or no and whether the number of 7. Sacraments were not agreed on before the late councel of Trent as O.E. affirmeth Enc. 1. cap. 13. num 7.8.9.10.11.12 c. How farre Catholike men do depend of the Pope for the certaintie of their religion Encount 1. cap. 16. num 17.18.19 VVhether there be any one new or old heresie can be proued to be in the doctryne of Papists at this day and how many there be properly and formally held by Protestants Encount 1. cap. 16. num 20. How contemptuouslie the protestants do speak not only of the old Fathers but also of their owne wryters when they make against them Enc. 1. cap. 17. VVhat manner of tryal Robertson the Anabaptist would haue by staying the Sunne for proof of his religion against Caluinists Enc. 1. cap. 17. num 17. VVhether temporal blessings entred into England other countreys round about with the new ghospel and change of the old Religion Encount 1. cap. 12. 13.14 18. How many and how great inconueniences in matter of state and otherwise haue insued in England by change of religion since K. Henry the 8. his departure from the vnion of the Roman Churche Encount 1 â—ap 17. 18. FINIS