when our Sauiour bid the Apostles preach to all Nations and yet neuer performed by Protestants by euidence of fact and by the confession of our Aduersaries doth shine most bright in the Church of Rome 4. But I cannot say that you omitted to raile against the Iesuites whom I will not dishonour so much as to defend them against that which you offer so impertinently vulgarly and meanely against them and particularly because in defence of a common cause I will not be diuerted by the consideration of particular persons though by reason of the Eminency of the person of Cardinall Dâ—ossat I cannot for beare to tell you that you falsify him when you make him say in his eight Epistle that he collected from their wicked doctrine and practises that they belieue neither in Iesus Christ nor the Pope For the Cardinall speakes not those words of any doctrine or practises of the Iesuites And in the funerall Oration which was pronounced at the Exequyes of the said Cardinall and is prefixed before the Booke which you alleadge it is affirmed that he of his owne accord and without being dealt with to that purpose did negociate the read mission of the Iesuites into France So far was he from collecting from their doctrine practises that they belieue neither in Iesus Christ nor in the Pope And as for our doctrine which concernes the incompatibility of Protestancy with saluation as proper to the Iesuites it is an idle speach void of all colour of truth For it is so far from being proper to them that it is common to all Roman Catholiques in the world and you shall neuer be able to shew me any one of an entire fame who holds the contrary 5. And wheras you aske Why may not a Protestant be saued since he belieues entirely the Scriptures the Catholique Creeds and whatsoeuer the Catholique Church in all ages hath belieued as necessary to saluation You may take the answere out of my First Part where I haue shewed that he neither keepes the Commaundments nor belieues all things necessary to saluation yea and belieues not any one point with diuine and supernaturall fayth who disobeyes and disagrees from the visible Church of Christ in any one thing propounded by her as a Diuine truth 6. You tell vs that you are no further departed from the present Roman Church then she is departed from herselfe But no wise man will belieue this till you can informe him what visible Church at or before Luthers appearance remained pure out of which the Roman Church had formerly departed or els you must confesse that the whole Church of Christ was corrupted Which because you will neuer be able to doe with truth you must be forced to confesse that she still kept her integrity without any spot of erroneous doctrine and therfore that your departure out of her cannot be excused from Schisme and Heresy 7. You say truly That it is meerly impossible (b) Pag. 10. the Catholique Church should want Charity because the good spirit of Truth and Loue euer assists and animates that great Body But you speake not consequently to your owne Assertion that the Catholique Church may erre in points of fayth not fundamentall For if the good spirit of Truth may faile to assist her fayth why may not the good Spirit of Loue faile to direct her Charity Nay if we obserue it well the Want of Charity which you impute to vs is resolued into this doctrinall point Protestancy vnrepented destroies saluation Which Doctrine and Assertion if you hold to be a fundamentall errour you depriue vs of saluation and become as vncharitable to vs as you say we are to you If it be not a fundamentall point then according to your principles the Church may erre therin and so want Charity by iudging that Protestants cannot be saued 8. What we vnderstand by the Roman Catholique Church I haue explained heertofore to wit all Christians vnited with the Church of Rome as it is the sea of Peter In which sense it is not a part but comprehendeth all the Catholique Church which heertofore I proued out of the Fathers as in some proportion we do not vnderstand the Tribe of Iuoa alone by the Iewish Church though the other Tribes were called by the name of the Iewish People and Church from that principall Tribe of Iuda So that your marginall quotations to proue that the Church of Rome is a particular Church are emplored to proue that which no man denies if we speake of the particular Diocesse of Rome and not as it is the Sea of Peter to which all Christian Catholiques dispersed throughout the whole world are vnited Which Sea of Peter setled in Rome being the Roote the Center the Fountaine the Idaea of all Ecclesiasticall Vnion in all Christian Churches giueth them the denomination of Roman Catholiques which doth no more limit the whole Catholique Church then the name of Iewish Church did limit the whole Sinagogue to the Tribe of Iuda alone And therfore your thred-bare Obiection that Catholique Roman (c) Pag. 11. are termes repugnant signifying vniuersall particular vanisheth vtterly away by this different acception of the Roman Church and serues only to conuince by your owne obiection that D. Potter or the Church of England cannot stile themselues Catholique because Catholique signifieth Vniuersall and D. Potter and the Church of England are things particular And I would gladly know what your Brethren meane when they affirme the Roman Church for diuers Ages to haue possessed the whole world Do they thinke that the particular Diocesse of Rome was lifted ouer the Alpes Or when your Prelates demaund whether we be Roman Catholiques do they demaund whether we dwell in the Citty or Diocesse of Rome And heer I note in a word what now cometh to my mind that I wonder D. Andrewes a man so highly esteemed among Protestants would tell vs that the Roman Church is indiuiduum (d) In Rest. ad Apolog. Card. Bollar ad ca. 5. as the Logicians call it and that Catholique is Genus or a generall kind For to omit that the thing it selfe is ridiculous it maketh directly for vs because euery indiuiduum containes in it selfe the Genus as Peter for example is a substance a sensible creature c. and so if the Roman Church be indiuiduum it must containe Catholique in it selfe and so the Roman Church must of necessity be affirmed to be a Catholique Church Before I leaue this point I must tell you that you corrupt Innocentius Tertius to proue (e) Pag. 12. that the Roman Church was anciently esteemed a Topical or particular Church distinct from others and in vnder the vniuersal in these words It is called the Vniuersall Church which consists of all Churches where you put an c. and then add Ecclesia Romana sic non est voâ—uersalis Ecclesia sed pars vniuersalis Ecclesiae The Roman Church is not thus the vniuersall Church but part of
cont Parm. went not out of Maiorinus thy Grand-Father but Maiorinus from Caecilianus neither did Caecilianus depart from the Chaire of Peter or Cyprian but Maiorinus in whose Chaire thou sittest which before Maiorinus Luther had no beginning Seing it is euident that these things passed in this manner that for example Luther departed from the Church and not the Church from Luther it is cleere that you be HEIRES both of the giuers vp of the Bible to be burned and of SCHISMATIQVES And the Regall Power or example of Henry the Eight could not excuse his Subiects from Schisme according to what we haue heard out of S. Chrysostome saying Nothing doth so much prouoke (d) Hom 11. In ep st ad Epâ—â—s the wrath of Almighty God as that the Church should be diuided Although we should do innumerable good deeds if we diuide the full Ecclesiasticall Congregation we shall be punished no lesse then they who did rend his naturall Body for that was done to the gaine of the whole world though not with that intention but this hath no good in it at all but that the greatest hurt riseth from it These things are spoken not only to those who be are office but to such also as are gouerned by them Behold therfore how liable both Subiects and Superiours are to the sinne of Schisme if they breake the vnity of God's Church The words of S. Paul can in no occasion be verified more then in this of which we speake They who do such things (e) Rom. 1.32 are worthy of death and not only they that do them but they also that consent with the doers In things which are indifferent of their owne nature Custome may be occasion that some act not well begun may in time come to be lawfully coÌ„tinued But no length of Time no Quality of Persons no Circumstance of Necessity can legitimate actions which are of their owne mature vnlawfull and therfore diuision from Christs my sticall Body being of the number of those actions which Deuines teach to be intrinsece malas euill of their owne nature and essence no difference of Persons or Time can euer make it lawfull D. Potter sayth There neither was nor can be any cause to depart from the Church of Christ no more then from Christ himselfe And who dares say that it is not damnable to continue a Separation from Christ Prescription cannot in conscience runne when the first beginner and his Successours are conscious that the thing to be prescribed for example goods or lands were vniustly possessed at the first Christians are not like strayes that after a certaine time of wandring from their right home fall from their owner to the Lord of the Soile but as long as they retaine the indeleble Character of Baptisme and liue vpon earth they are obliged to acknowledge subiection to God's Church Human Lawes may come to nothing by discontinuance of Time but the Law of God commaunding vs to conserue Vnity in his Church doth still remaine The continued disobedience of Children cannot depriue Parents of their paternall right nor can the Grand-child be vndutifull to his Grand Father because his Father was vnnaturall to his owne Parent The longer God's Church is disobeyed the profession of her Doctrine denyed her Sacraments neglected her Liturgy condemned her Vnity violated the more grieuous the fault growes to be as the longer a man with-holds a due debt or retaines his Neighbours goods the greater iniustice he commits Constancy in euill doth not extenuate but aggrauate the same which by extension of Time receiueth increase of strength addition of greater malice If these mens conceits were true the Church might come to be wholy diuided by wicked Schismes and yet after some space of time none could be accused of Schisme nor be obliged to returne to the visible Church of Christ and so there should remaine no One true visible Church Let therfore these men who pretend to honour reuerence belieue the Doctrine and practise of the visible Church and to condemne their forefathers who fosooke her and say they would not haue done so if they had liued in the dayes of their Fathers and yet follow their example in remaining diuided from her Communion consider how truly these words of our Sauiour fall vpon them Wo be to you because you build (f) Matt. 23. â— 29. c. the Prophets sepulchers and garnish the monuments of iust men and say If we had been in our Fathers dayes we had not been their fellowes in the bloud of the Prophets Therfore you are a testimony to your owne selues that you are the sonnes of them that killed the Prophets and fill vp the measure of your Fathers 46. And thus hauing demonstrated that Luther his Associates and all that continue in the Schisme by them begunne are guilty of Schisme by departing from the visible true Church of Christ it remaineth that we examine what in particular was that Visible true Church from which they departed that so they may know to what Church in particular they ought to returne and then we shall haue performed what was proposed to be handled in the fifth Point 47. That the Roman Church I speake not for the present of the particular Diocesse of Rome 5 Point but of all visible Churches dispersed throughout the whole world agreeing in faith with the Chaire of Peter Luther the rest departed froÌ„ the Roman Church whether that Sea were supposed to be in the Citty of Rome or in any other place That I say the Church of Rome in this sense was the visible Catholique Church out of which Luther departed is proued by your owne Confession who assigne for notes of the Church the true Preaching of Gods Church and due Administration of Sacraments both which for the substance you cannot deny to the Roman Church since you confesse that she waÌ„ted nothing fundamentall or necessary to saluation and for that very cause you thinke to cleare your selfe from Schisme whose property as you say is to cut off from the (g) pag. 78. Body of Christ and the Hope of Saluation the Church from which it separates Now that Luther and his fellowes were borne and baptized in the Roman Church and that she was the Church out of which they departed is notoriously knowne And therefore you cannot cut her off from the Body of Christ Hope of Saluation vnles you will acknowledge your selfe to deserue the iust imputatioÌ„ of Schisme Neyther can you deny her to be truly Catholique by reason of pretended corruptions not fundamentall For your selfe auouch and endeauour to proue that the true Catholique Church may erre in such points Moreouer I hope you will not so much as go about to proue that when Luther rose there was any other true visible Church disagreeing from the Roman agreeing with Protestants in their particular doctrines and you cannot deny but that England in those dayes agreed with Rome and other Nations with England
vniuersall Church She hath this (t) Cont. lit Petil. lib. 1. cap. 104. most certaine marke that she cannot be hidden She is then knowne to all Nations The Sect of Donatus is vnknown to many Nations therfore that cannot be she The Sect of Luther at least when he began and much more before his beginning was vnknowne to many Nations therfore that cannot be she 17. And that it may yet further appeare how perfectly Luther agreed with the Donatists It is to be noted that they neuer taught that the Catholique Church ought not to extend it selfe further then that part of Africa where their faction raigned but only that in fact it was so confined because all the rest of the Church was prophaned by communicating with Caecilianus whom they falsly affirmed to haue been ordained Bishop by those who were Traditours or giuers vp of the Bible to the Persecutors to be burned yea at that very time they had some of their Sect residing in Rome and sent thither one Victor a Bishop vnder colour to take care of their Brethren in that Citty but indeed as Baronius (u) Anno 321. nu 2. Spond obserueth that the world might account them Catholiques by communicating with the Bishop of Rome to communicate with whom was euen taken by the Ancient Fathers as an assured signe of being a true Catholique They had also as S. Augustine witnesseth a pretended (w) De Vni Eccles c. 3. Church in the howse and territory of a Spanish Lady called Lucilla who went flying out of the Catholique Church because she had been iustly checked by Caectlianus And the same Saint speaking of the conference he had with Fortunius the Donatist sayth Heere did he first (x) Ep. 163. attempt to affirme that his Communion was spread ouer the whole Earth c. but because the thing was euidently false they got out of this discourse by confusion of language wherby neuertheles they sufficiently declared that they did not hold that the true Church ought necessarily to be confined to one place but only by meere necessity were forced to yield that it was so in fact because their Sect which they held to be the only true Church was not spread ouer the world In which point Fortunius and the rest were more modest then he who should affirme that Luther's reformation in the very beginning was spead ouer the whole Earth being at that time by many degrees not so far diffused as the Sect of the Donatists I haue no desire to prosecute the similitude of Protestants with Donatists by remembring that the Sect of these men was began and promoted by the passion of Lucilla and who is ignorant what influence two women the Mother and Daughter ministred to Protestancy in England Nor will I stand to obserue their very likenes of phrase with the Donatists who called the Chaire of Rome the Chaire of pestilence and the Roman Church an Harlot which is D. Potter's owne phrase wherin he is lesse excusable then they because he maintaineth her to be a true Church of Christ therfore let him duely ponder these words of S. Augustine against the Donatists If I persecute him iustly who detracts (y) Conc. super gest cust Emeriâ— from his Neighbour why should I not persecute him who detracts from the Church of Christ and sayth this is not she but this is an Harlot And least of all will I consider whether you may not be well compared to one Ticonius a Donatist who wrote against Parmenianus likewise a Donatist who blasphemed that the Church of Christ had perished as you do euen in this your Booke write against some of your Protestant Brethren or as you call them Zelots among you who hold the very same or rather a worse Heresy and yet remained among them euen after Parmenianus had excommunicated him as those your Zealous Brethren would proceed agaynst you if it were in their power and yet like Ticonius you remaine in their Communion and come not into that Church which is hath been and shall euer be vniuersall For which very cause S. Augustin complaines of Ticonius that although he wrote against the Donatists yet he was of an hart (z) De doctr Christ lib. 3. cap. 30. so extremely absurd as not to forsake them alto gether And speaking of the same thing in another place he obserues that although Ticonius did manifestly confute them who affirmed that the Church had perished yet he saw not sayth this holy Father that which in good consequence (a) Cont. Parm. l. 1. cap. 1. he should haue seene that those Christians of Africa belonged to the Church spread ouer the whole world who remained vnited not with them who were diuided from the communion and vnity of the same world but with such as did communicate with the whole world But Parmenianus and the rest of the Donatists saw that consequence and resolued rather to settle their mind in obstinacy against the most manifest truth which Ticonius maintained then by yielding therto to be ouercome by those Churches in Africa which enioyed the communion of that vnity which Ticonius defended from which they had diuided themselues How fitly these words agree to Catholiques in England in respect of the Protestants I desire the Reader to consider But these and the like resemblances of Protestants to the Donatistes I willingly let passe and onely vrge the maine point That since Luthers Reformed Church was not in being for diuers Centuries before Luther and yet was because so forsooth they will needs haue it in the Apostles time they must of necessity affirme heretically with the Donatists that the true and vnspotted Church of Christ perished that she which remained on earth was O blasphemy an Harlot Moreouer the same heresy followes out of the doctrine of D. Potter and other Protestants that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall because we haue shewed that euery errour against any one reuealed truth is Heresy and damnable whether the matter be otherwise of it selfe great or small And how can the Church more truly be sayd to perish then when she is permitted to maintaine a damnable Heresy Besides we will heereafter proue that by any act of Heresy all diuine fayth is lost to imagine a true Church of faithfull persons without any fayth is as much as to fancy a liuing man without life It is therefore cleere that Donatist-like they hold that the Church of Christ perished yea they are worse then the Donatists who said that the Church remained at least in Africa whereas Protestants must of necessity be forced to grant that for a long space before Luther she was no where at all But let vs goe forward to other reasons 18. The holy Scripture and Ancient Fathers do assigne Separation from the Visible Church as a marke of Heresy according to that of S. Iohn They went out (b) 2. Ioan 19. from vs. And Some who (c) Act. 15.24 went out from
we grant that it is not alwayes easy to determine in particuler occasions whether this or that doctrine be such Because it may be doubtfull whether it be against any Scripture or diuine Tradition or Definition of the Church and much more whether the person be an Heretique which requireth certaine conditions as Capacity Pertinacy sufficient Proposition c. which are not alwayes so easily explicated and discerned and for these respects S. Augustine in the place cited (b) Pag. 102. by you had good reason to say That it is hard to know what makes an Heretique But it is strange that you should hold it to be so hard a matter to giue a generall definition of Heresy or Heretique since in this very Section you dispatch it quickly saying He is iustly (c) Pag. 98. esteemed an Heretique who yields not to Scripture sufficiently propounded Or as you say else where It is fundamentall (d) Pag. 250. to a Christians Fayth and necessary for his saluation that he belieue all reuealed Truths of God wherof he may be conuinced that they are from God Nay if you will speake with coherence to your owne grounds it is easy for you to define in all particular cases what is damnable Heresy for you I say who measure all Heresy by opposition to Scripture and further affirme that Scripture is cleere in all fundamentall points For by this meanes it will be easy for you to discerne what error opposeth those fundamental Truths which are cleerly contained in Scripture 4. In your discourse concerning the Controuersy between Pope Stephen and S. Cyprian you shew a great deale of passion against the Roman Church which you impugne out of an Epistle of Firmilianus who at that time was a party against the Pope and who in particuler did afterward recant togeather with the other Bishops who once ioyned with S. Cyprian as we haue already shewed out of S. Hierome may be also seen in an Epistle of Dionysius Alexandrinus apud Eusch hist. l. 6. c. 7. wherin Firmilianus in particular is named therfore you are inexcusable who say they persisted in their opinion wheras the proceeding of S. Stephen was necessary to preuent a pernicious error of rebaptizing of such as had been baptized by Heretiques which afterward was condemned by the whole Church And as for S. Cyprians mild proceeding which you so much commend out of your ill will to S. Stephen because he was Pope S. Augustine saith The things which (e) De Bapt. cont Donat. lib. 5. cap. 25. Cyprian in anger hath spread against Stephen I will not suffer to passe vnder my pen. Wherfore you could not haue picked out an example more in fauour of Popes then this And you must giue vs leaue not to credit what you say That both Stephen and Cyprian erred in some sense For Stephen only affirmed that Baptisme was not inualide precisely because it is giuen by Heretiques as S. Cyprian affirmed it to be but yet if the Heretiques erred either in the Matter or Forme of Baptisme Stephen neuer affirmed such Baptisme to be valid which had been more then he granted euen to the Baptisme of Catholiques 5. Your Argument to proue that (f) Pag. 112. concerning our greater safety we dispute against you as the Donatists did against Catholiques I haue answered (g) Cap. 7. num 7. in the First Part. You would make men belieue that we are like the Donatists who washed Church wall and vestments of Catholiques broke their Chalices scraped their Altars c. But I pray you consider whether Chalices Vestments Palls or Corporals and Altars do expresse the Protestant Church of England Scotland Geneua Holland c. or the Church of Rome 6. You spend diuers pages in propounding Arguments for the opinion of M. Hooker and M. Morton That whersoeuer a company of men (h) Pag. 113. doe iointly professe the substance of Christian Religion which is fayth in Iesus Christ the Sonne of God and Sauiour of the world with submission to his doctrine in mynd and will there is a Church wherein Saluation may be had notwithstanding any corruption in ludgment or practise yea although it be of that nature that it seeme to fight with the very foundation and so haynous as that in respect thereof the people stayned with this corruption are worthy to be abhorred of all men and vnworthy to be called the Church of God But because these and such monstruous Assertions proceed from other errours which I haue already both cleerly and at large confuted to wit the Fallibility of the Church the Distinction of points fundamental and not fundamentall c. I referre you to those places and heere onely obserue into what precipices they fall who deny the vniuersall Infallibility of the Church And it is strange that you your selfe did not see the manifest contradictions inuolued in this wicked doctrine For how can it be a Church wherein Saluation may be had and yet be vnworthy to be called the Church of God How can that man haue fayth in Iesus Christ with submission to his doctrine in mind and will who is supposed to ioyne with his beliefe in Iesus Christ other errors sufficiently propounded to be repugnant against Gods word or Reuelation Can submission in mind or will or obseruation of his Commandments stand with actuall voluntary error against his word Is it not a prime Commandment to belieue Gods word Do not your selfe affirme that it is Infidelity to deny whatsoeuer is reuealed in Scripture How then can a Church be said to haue meanes for saluation and life wherin is wanting Fayth the first ground of saluation The Fathers sometimes called the Donatists Brethren by reason of their true Baptisme not for their possibility to be saued according as S. Augustine said to them The Sacraments of Christ (i) Epist 48. do not make thee an Heretique but thy wicked disagreement And Optatus sayth You cannot (k) Lib. 4◠but be our brethren whom the same Mother the Church hath begotten in the same bowels of Sacraments whom God our Father hath in the same manner receiued as adopted Children namely on his behalfe and for as much as concernes the vertue of Baptisme The Conclusion of your discourse may well beseeme the doctrine for which you bring it A learned man (l) Pag. 122. anciently was made a Bishop of the Catholique Church although he did professedly doubt of the last Resurrection of our bodies You might haue added that he would not belieue that the world should euer haue an end and further absolutely refused to be baptized And that he would not as the History recoūteth liue a single life as other Priests but that he would liue with a wife For Synesius who is the man you meane publiquely protested all these things and you are wise inough to take only what might seeme to serue your turne as this concerning the single liues of Priests did not because it sheweth that in those
And therefore eyther Christ had no visible Church vpon Earth or else you must grant that it was the Church of Rome A truth so manifest that those ProtestaÌ„ts who affirme the Roman Church to haue lost the Nature being of a true Church do by ineuitable Consequence grant that for diuers Ages Christ had no visible Church on Earth from which errour because D. Potter disclaymeth he must of necessity maintaine that the Roman Church is free from fundamentall and damnable errour and that she is not cut of from the Body of Christ and the Hope of Saluation And if saith he any Zelots amongst vs haue proceeded (h) Jhid to heauier censures their zeale may be excused but their Charity and wisedome cannot be iustifyed 48. And to touch particulars which perhaps some may obiect No man is ignorant that the Grecians euen the Schismaticall Grecians do in most points agree with Roman Catholiques disagree from the Protestant Reformation They teach Transubstantiation which point D. Potter also (i) Pag. 229. confesseth Inuocation of Saints and Angels veneration of Reliques and Images Auricular Confession enioyned Satisfaction Confirmation with Chrisme Extreme-vnction All the seauen Sacraments Prayer Sacrifice Almes for the dead Monachisme That Priests may not marry after their Ordination In which points that the Grecians agree with the Roman Church appeareth by a Treatise published by the Protestant Deusnes of Wittemberg intituled Acta Theologorum Wittembergensium Icremiae Patriarchae Constantinop de Augustana Confesaone c. Wittembergae anno 1584. by the Protestant (k) De statu Eccles pag. 233. Crispinus by Syr Edwin Sands in the Relation of the State of Religion of the West And I wonder with what colour of truth to say no worse D. Potter could affirme that the Doctrines debated between the Protestats (l) pag. 22â— Rome are only the partiall particular fancies of the Roman Church vnlesse happily the opinion of TransubstaÌ„tiation may be excepted wherin the latter Grecians seene to agree with the Romanists Beside the Protestant Authors already cited Petrus Arcudius a Grecian and a learned Catholique Writer hath published a large Volume the Argument and Title wherof is Of the agreement of the Roman and Greeke Church in the seauen Sacraments As for the Heresy of the Grecians that the Holy Ghost proceeds not from the Sonne I suppose that Protestants disauow them in that errour as we doe 49. D. Potter will not I thinke so much wrong his reputation as to tell vs that the Waldenses Wicctiffe Husse or the like were Protestants because in some things they disagreed from Catholiques For he well knowes that the example of such men is subiect to these manifest exceptions They were not of all Ages nor in all Countries but confined to certaine places and were interrupted in Time against the notion and nature of the word Catholique They had no Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy nor Succession of Bishops Priests and Pastours They differed among themselues and from Protestants also They agreed in diuers things with vs against Protestants They held doctrines manifestly absurd and damnable heresies 50. The Waldenses begun not before the yeare 1218. so far were they from Vniuersality of all Ages For their doctrine first they denied all Iudgments which extended to the drawing of bloud and the Sabbaoth for which cause they were called In-sabbatists Secondly they taught that Lay men and women might consecrate the Sacrament and preach no doubt but by this meanes to make their Maister Waldo a meere lay man capable of such functions Thirdly that Clergy men ought to haue no possessions or proprieties Fourthly that there should be no diuision of Parishes nor Churches for a walled Church they reputed as a barne Fiftly that men ought not to take an oath in any case Sixtly that those persons sinned mortally who accompanied without hope of issue Seauenthly they held all things done aboue the girdle by kissing touching words compression of the breasts c. to be done in Charity and not against Continency Eightly that neither Priest nor ciuill Magistrate being guilty of mortall sinne did enioy their dignity or were to be obeyed Ninthly they condemned Princes and Iudges Tenthly they affirmed singing in the Church to be an hellish clamor Eleauenthly they taught that men might dissemble their Religion and so accordingly they went to Catholique Churches dissembling their Fayth and made Offertories confessions and communions after a dissembling manner Waldo was so vnlearned that sayth (m) Act. Mon. pag. 628. Fox he gaue rewards to certaine learned men to translate the holy Scripture for him and being thus holpen did as the same Fox there reporteth confer the forme of religion in his time to the infallible word of God A godly example for such as must needs haue the Scripture in English to be read by euery simple body with such fruit of godly doctrine as we haue seen in the foresaid grosse heresies of Waldo The followers of Waldo were like their Maister so vnlearned that some of them sayth (n) Ibid. Fox expounded the words Ioan. 1. Suieum non receperunt Swyne did not receiue him And to conclude they agreed in diuers things with Catholiques against Protestants as may be seene in (o) Tract 2. cap. 2. sect subd 3. Brereley 51. Neither can it be pretended that these are slanders forged by Catholiques For besides that the same things are testified by Protestant Writers as Illyrâ—cus Cowper others our Authours cannot be suspected of partiality in disfauour of Protestants vnles you will say perhaps that they were Prophets and some hundred yeares agoe did both foresee that there were to be Protestants in the world and that such Protestants were to be like the Waldenses Besides from whence but from our Histories are Protestants come to know that there were any such men as the Waldenses and that in some points they agreed with the Protestants and disagreed from them in others And vpon what ground can they belieue our Authours for that part wherin the Waldenses were like to Protestants and imagine they lyed in the rest 52. Neither could Wicliffe continue a Church neuer interrupted from the time of the Waldenses after whom he liued more then one hundred and fifty yeares to wit the yeare 1371. He agreed with Catholiques about the worshipping of Reliques and Images and about the Intercession of our blessed Lady the euer Immaculate Mother of God he went so far as to say It seemes to me (p) In serm de Assump Marte impossible that we should be rewarded without the intercession of the Virgin Mary He held seauen Saciaments Purgatory and other points And against both Catholiques and Protestants he maintained sundry damnable doctrines as diuers Protestant Writers relate As first If a Bishop or Priest be in deadly sinne he doth not indeed either giue Orders Consecrate or Baptize Secondly That Ecclesiasticall Ministers ought not to haue any temporall possessions nor propriety in any thing but should