Hanson When I came from Whitehall on a Sunday in the evening when my Lord was going to bed I called if I could be admitted to see him so I went in to him and a little after the Doctor came Sir Fra. Win. Pray Sir at that time that he was in that Lodging did he wear his own hair or was he in a disguise Mr. Hanson That Sunday night he was in his night-Cap and night-Gown ready to go to bed Mr. Williams When you first came to him to the Post-house did you go of your own accord or were you sent for Mr. Hanson Count Conningsmark sent for me Mr. Williams Was it sent in his own name or the name of another Mr. Hanson It was in a strange name Carlo Cusk Mr. Williams Have you the Note by you Mr. Hanson No. Mr. Williams In whose Character was it writ Mr. Hanson In the Counts own Character Sir Fra. Win. What was his name in his first Lodging What title was he called by Captain or what Mr. Hanson I know of no other name but only the stranger Sir Fra. Win. Was it known to any person in the Family Mr. Hanson No. Mr. Williams When did he remove from thence Mr. Hanson I know not Sir Fra. Winn. You say the first place of his Lodging was in the Hay-market where did you see him the second time Mr. Hanson At a corner House I know not the name of the Street Sir Fra. Withins Did he direct you to come to him Mr. Williams Had you any discourse with him what his business was here in England Mr. Hanson I asked him if we should have his company here some time he told me he was come over about some business and was afterwards to go into France Mr. Williams Then he never told you what that business was Mr. Hanson No. Mr. Williams Where was his second Lodging do you say Mr. Hanson It was at a corner house not above two streets off from the former Mr. Williams How long did he continue in his second Lodging Mr. Hanson A few days because the Chimney did so smoak that he could have no fire made in it Sir Fra. Win. Then I ask you in his second Lodging was he there publickly or privately Mr. Hanson He was there after the fame manner that he was in his first Lodging Mr. Williams Whither went he afterwards Mr. Hanson To St. Martins Lane I think it is called Mr. Williams How long did he continue there Mr. Hanson There I saw him the last time before he went away Mr. Williams When was that Mr. Hanson It was the Sunday evening after I came from Whitehall Mr. Williams Was it near the time of killing Mr. Thynne Mr. Hanson It was about two or three hours afterwards Mr. Williams Was he as private there as he was in his other Lodgings Mr. Hanson Yes Mr. Williams What Company came to him thither Mr. Hanson The same that came to him in the other Sir Fra. Win. Who were they Mr. Hanson The Doctor was in his Company Sir Fra. Win. And who else Mr. Hanson I saw one Captain Vratz there Sir Fra. Win. Sir I ask you upon your Oath you are a man of understanding did you frequently see Captain Vratz in his Company How often do you remember you saw him at his Lodging Mr. Hanson I do not remember that I saw Captain Vratz at that Lodging above one single time Mr. Williams Pray Sir thus Did Captain Vratz come with the Count into England this last time Mr. Hanson To my best remembrance he did Mr. Williams You say Captain Vratz came with the Count to England Mr. Hanson I believe he was before the Count but not long before I can't exactly tell Mr. Williams How long before the Count Mr. Hanson Truly I can't tell but I believe not long Mr. Williams What makes you think he came into England with him Mr. Hanson Because I saw him in Company with the Count as soon as I saw the Count. Mr. Williams Were they in Company at the Post-house Mr. Hanson Yes Sir Fra. Win. And you saw him once at his first Lodging Mr. Hanson Yes Mr. Williams Pray Sir have you carried any Message from the Count to the Swedish Resident Mr. Hanson My Lord I can say this upon my Oath to my best remembrance Count Conningsmark never charged me or gave me any positive Order to go to the Swedish Envoy but he did name the Swedish Envoy to me as if he were willing to know his advice and so I being obliged to pay my Respects to the Swedish Envoy who had treated the young Count and my self very civilly before and so paying my Respects to the said Envoy I did remember the Conversation I had with the Count and spoke with the said Envoy about this business and that is all that I can say Sir Fra. Win. What was that Message Mr. Hanson I say there was no direct message But I say this was the business Count Conningsmark told me in private familiar discourse that he had heard that Esquire Thynne had spoken some abusive languagâ—â—â— him and he would fain know what the consequence of this would be if he should call him to account about this business and he named the Swedish Envoy to me And I saw his desire was to know his Opinion about the businesses what the consequence of it would be So I spoke to the Swedish Envoy and he gave me this answer That if the Count should any way meddle with Esquire Thynne he would have but bad living in England but what the Law would say in that particular Case he could not answer but he would enquire and afterwards would give me an account but I never spake with him after Sir Fr. Winn. I ask you because you have been formerly examined in another place about this matter Do you remember any thing that ever you heard the Count speaking of fighting with Mr. Thynne Mr. Hanson Count Conningsmark spoke to me in the German Language I spoke to the Swedish Agent in French and when I was before the King and Council I spoke in English therefore I desire no evil construction may be made of it I cannot remember the Count spake of killing or duelling On the contrary I can swear for Count Conningsmark this that I am confident he never told me that he had resolved or would fight with Mr. Thynne or would call him to account but if he should call him to accompt what would be the consequence of it Sir Fra. Winn. Call him to accompt about what Mr. Hanson The Count in familiar discourse with me did tell me that he had heard Esquire Thynne had spoken abusively of him Sir Fra. Winn. How had he spoken abusively of him Mr. Hanson He reflected upon his Person and upon his Horse Mr. Williams Was there any thing in that Message about marrying my Lady Ogle Mr. Hanson That was the last part of the question That if he should meddle with Esquire Thynne what the consequence
Captain and Sterne who is called the Lieutenant Borosky the Polander we say was the Man that discharged this Blunderbuss against this Worthy Gentleman that was slain but though he was the only Man that discharged it yet if we can satisfie you that Vratz and Sterne were with him at the same time aiding and assisting him when he gave the blow they are as much Principals as he that shot off the Gun It will be natural to open to you what is said against this Captain Vratz he is a Swede by Birth and did formerly belong to Count Coningsmark he was a Retainer to him Afterwards I think in the War he was made a Captain This Gentleman had been formerly in England but at the last time he came which was three weeks or thereabouts before the Murder was committed his Lodging was in King-street at Westminster This Captain Vratz we shall prove did often Discourse that he had a Quarrel with Mr. Thynne that several times before this Murder was Actually done he Ordered his Servant to way-lay his Coach and upon that very Fatal day the 12th of February when this unhappy Accident fell out having Information that Mr. Thynne was gone out in his Coach immediately he puts on his Boots gives Order to his Servant to bring his Cloaths to him at such a place because he should remove his Lodging he said that Night that he should bring his Cloaths to the Black Bull Inn in Holborn and bring his Horse thither too When he went from his Lodging the Polander went along with him and they came to the Black Bull in Holborn where they met with Sterne We shall shew you that these three Gentlemen being thus Armed one with a Blunderbuss the Second with Pistols and the other very well provided rid out about six of the Clock the Murder being Committed about seven or eight At their going out they enquired which was their way to Temple Barr they were seen to ride through the Strand to St. Jameses the Fact was done in the Pall-mall and we shall shew you the way of it was thus Mr. Thynne passing through the Street to go home in his Coach three Persons came riding up to the Coach-side and while the one stopped the Horses immediately the Blunderbuss was discharged into the Coach against Mr. Thynne and gave him those Wounds of which the next Morning he dyed Presently these three Men ran away but one of them let fall a Pistol upon the place which I shall observe as a Material Circumstance against these Persons because we shall prove whose the Blunderbuss was These things being done this Murder Committed and they gone away it began to work in Peoples thoughts and Circumstances began to come out that this Blunderbuss should be Ordered to be bought by Captain Vratz who had Discoursed with many Persons about the Quarrel he had with Mr. Thynne and given Order to his Servant to way-lay his Coach and these Persons being Rid out at that time there was a great Suspicion that they did it Great care there was taken and great means used as no doubt there would be to Apprehend the Malefactors and by great Providence it was found out at last that this Captain Vratz according to his Word had altered his Lodging and was got to a Doctors House that lived I think in Leicester Fields Being there surprized and coming upon his Examination he did not deny but he was there one of the three that was at the place when and where Mr. Thynne was Murdered but he pretended he did intend to Fight him in a Duel and kill him fairly as he called it But Gentlemen I must Observe this to you in my small time of Experience of the World I never knew a Man go to Fight a Duel and carry out with him a Second with a Blunderbuss 'T is not possible he should go with such a Design as he would insinuate but rather with an intention of Murder For the Polander he came into England but the Friday before and so we shall prove to you that which will stick hard upon the Count. Upon Friday he being landed he inquires for the young Count's Tutor which was at an Academy of one Monsieur Fauberts and there he inquires for the Count's Secretary he lay there I think that Night and upon Saturday he was conveyed to the Count's Lodgings There also he was lodged for one Night The Count was pleased to be speak him a very good Sword and a Coat for him that he might be well armed and there he lay Saturday-night as I said the night before the Murder was committed Upon Sunday Gentlemen there being a Message sent to this Doctor where Vratz lay the night following that the Count would speak with the Doctor the Doctor came and the Doctor and the Polander went away to Capt. Vratz Lodging and from thence to Holborn to the Black Bull and the Captain was carried in as much secresie as he could for he was carried in a Sedan and I think we shall be able to prove by the persons that carried him that this was the Man For the other Gentleman Stern the Lieutenant as they call him he was an antient Acquaintance of Capt. Vratz's had known him long ago in England and complained to him that Lodgings might be very dear but the Captain told him he had a Design that if he would assist him as a brave fellow would maintain him and he should not want Money to bear all his Charges But we shall prove that this was the third person that rid out with the Polander and the Captain in this Garb that I told you of this night that the Fact was done And indeed Gentlemen upon their Examination they have every one confessed the Fact even the Polander confessed that he did shoot off the Blunderbuss and Vratz confessed that he was there and the Lieutenant Sterns so that if there had been no more Evidence it would have been sufficient to maintain the Issue and in our Circumstances it is more perhaps than could be expected This Gentlemen is the principal Sum of the Evidence that will be given against the three Principals For the fourth Gentlemen Count Coningsmark he is a person of great Quality and I am extraordinary sorry to find the Evidence so strong against him as my Brief imports I wish his Innocence were greater and our Evidence less for he is a person of too great Quality one would hope to be concerned in a thing of this nature but that he was the maid Abettor and Procuror of this Barbarous Business we shall prove upon these grounds First That he had a Design upon Mr. Thynne's Life for Gentlemen coming into England about three Weeks before this Matter was transacted first he lies in disguise and lies private and removes his Lodging from place to place frequently That he sent a person to inquire of the Swedish Resident Whether or no if he should Kill Mr. Thynne in a Duel he could by
the Laws of England afterwards Marry the Lady Ogle So that Mr. Thynne's Death was in prospect from the beginning Gentlemen We shall prove to you as I did in some measure open before that the Count himself was pleased to give express order that the Polander should have a good Sword bought him That before he came into England he was very much troubled by reason of the stormy Weather for fear he should be cast away that he lodged him in his own Lodging the Night before this Act was perpetrated and that Captain Vratz was the Morning before and immediately after with the Count. Another thing Gentlemen that I had almost forgot The Count was willing to be instructed in the Laws of England and inquired Whether a man might lawfully ride out upon a Sunday and being told That after Sermon he might he was very well satisfied and the day he inquired of it was the day that the Murder was committed After the thing was done Count Coningsmark the next Morning pretended he was to go to Windsor and leaves his Lodging but instead of going to Windsor being still in his disguise he goes to Rotherhith by the Water-side and there I think he continues two or three days in a Black Peruque and that is disguise enough for such a Gentleman And afterwards he goes to Gravesend but I think he was upon the Water some time before he thought it convenient to land and there he was surprized in this disguise And when he was surprized and taken he shew'd himself to be in great disorder but being charged with the Fact acknowledged nothing of the Matter but how it should come to pass that he should lie so long disguised upon no pretence that can be known and afterwards to pretend that he had a business to effect and then he was to go into France that will lye upon him to answer But these are the inducing Evidences that we give to you his keeping the Polander in his House his disguising of himself and his inquiring Whether if he Killed Mr. Thynne he might not Marry my Lady Ogle his flight the next day and pretending to go to Windsor when he went quite the other way and all in a disguise And these persons not having any appearance or any reason whatsoever for any particular quarrel to Mr. Thynne but the Count having some disgust to him upon the Terms that the Witnesses will tell you of by and by and being related to the Count we must leave it to you to judge whether these Gentlemen did it singly and purely upon their own heads or whether they were not set upon it by the Count. Sir Fra. Winn. My Lord I shall not trouble you with repeating of our Evidence but we will begin and call our Witnesses directly to prove the Murder done by these Gentlemen we will prove the Fact downright upon them and then we shall afterwards come to the Count. Mr. Williams My Lord first we will direct our Evidence to the Principals and then to the Accessory Call William Cole and William Ellers L. C. J. Swear some persons to Interpret the Evidence that shall be given I do it for the sake of the Aliens that are of the Jury for some of them understand no English and they will not know what to make of the Evidence if they do not repeat it to them in their own Language Then Vandore and Wright were sworn for the King Sir N. Johnson My Lord desires that the Doctor and the Taylor that are in Prison may be sent for to be here for they are Witnesses for him Sir Fra. Winn. We desire they may be here too for they are Witnesses for the King and I believe they are here my Lord. Sir N. Johnson Mr. Vandore does not speak French Sir Will. Roberts Mr. Craven speaks Dutch and French very well Mr. Craven was sworn Sir N. Johnson The Count desires the favor of Pen and Ink. L. C. J. Let the Count have Pen and Ink. Mr. Williams Call William Cole and William Ellers Who appeared and were sworn Which is William Cole set him up Acquaint my Lord and the Jury how Mr. Thynne was Assaulted and the manner of it Cole My Lord my Master was coming up St. James-street from the Countess of Northumberlands Sir Fra. Winn. Name your Master Mr. Williams Who was your Master Cole Mr. Thynne And I had a Flambeau in my hand and was going before the Coach and coming along at the lower end of St. Albons-street I heard the Blunderbuss go off so upon that I turned my Face back and saw a great smoke and heard my Master cry out he was Murdered and I see three Horsemen riding away on the right side of the Coach and I pursued after them and cryed out Murder I ran to the upper end of the Hay-Market till I was quite spent and was able to go no further and turning back again my Master was got into the House and I understood he was wounded that is all I know Mr. Williams You say you heard a Blunderbuss go off and turning back you saw three Men riding away from the Coach Cole Yes Mr. Williams Look upon the Prisoners at the Bar Can you say all them or any of them were the men Cole No I cannot I did not see their Faces but I saw the Horse of one of them was a little Bay Horse Mr. Williams But do you take any of them Men to be one of the three Cole I did not see any of their Faces Sir Fra. Winn. What time of Night was it Cole A quarter after Eight Sir Fra. Winn. Pray what day of the Week Cole Sunday Sir Fran. Win. What day of the Month Cole The 11th or 12th of February Sir Fran. Win. Then where is William Ellers Pray do you tell the Court and the Jury how Mr. Thynne was Wounded and by whom and what you know of it Ellers My Lord I came with my Master from St. James-street from my Lady Northumberland's and as I came at St. Albans-street there came three Men Riding by the right side of the Coach and as they Rid one of them turned about and bid me stop you Dog and just as I looked about the fire was let into the Coach upon my Master and the Men ran away as fast as they could Sir Fran. Win. How many were there of them Ellers There were three Sir Fran. Win. Were those Men at the Bar or any of them the Persons Ellers I cannot tell Sir Fran. Win. What were the words they said when the Coach was stopped Hold hold or stop you Dog Mr. Williams What Condition was your Master in then Was he shot then Ellers Yes Mr. Williams We will give you some Evidence now out of their Examinations L. C. J. You had best give some Evidence of his Wounds Mr. Williams Yes we will Call Mr. Hobbs the Chirurgeon L. C. J. Look you Mr. Craven you hear what these Witnesses say tell it to the Gentlemen of the Jury
Win. What then was to follow Mr. Hanson If he should call him to account then how the Laws of England might do in this Point Mr. Williams To whom Mr. Hanson To the Count. Mr. Williams What should befall him Mr. Hanson Whether the Law should be contrary to him in the Design and Proposals hâ— might have concerning the Young Countess of Ogle Mr. Williams Well I see you will give no reasonable answer to that but now when came the Polander over into England Mr. Hanson I cannot say positively I can tell when he came Mr. Williams But when did you see him first Mr. Hanson Upon the Friday he came and asked me for the Count at Monsieur Fauberts Academy Now the young Count Conningsmark's Chamber and mine joyns together next to one another and there came a man with him I do not know his name but if I see the man I know him Mr. Williams You say the Polander came over on Friday Mr. Hanson He came to me on Friday Mr. Williams And he came to you to the French Academy to enquire for Count Conningsmark Mr. Hanson Yes he did so Mr. Williams Had he any Letters Mr. Hanson Yes he had two Letters Mr. Williams From whom and to whom Mr. Hanson I asked him if he had any Letter for Count Conningsmark and he said no but he told me he had two Letters and the one was to the Count's Secretary and the other was to the Count's Steward in London So I gave him back his Letters and asked him whence he came he told me he was just come into England I asked him whether he had been a great while at Sea and he told me yes and that it was Stormy and he had like to have been cast away said I I hear you are expected therefore have you paid your Lodging no said he then said I go and pay your Lodging and come to me in the Morning early Sir Fran. Win. You say you heard he was expected pray who expected him Mr. Hanson The Count for he had spoken formerly twice of the Polander and in the great Storm thought he had been drowned To the best of my remembrance I have heard the Count speak twice of this Polander Sir Fran. Win. Of this man Mr. Hanson I suppose it is the same Sir Fran. Win. You say you saw him on Friday Mr. Hanson Yes I did Mr. Williams When did he speak of the stormy Weather And that he was afraid the Polander might miscarry Mr. Hanson About twelve or thirteen dayes before Mr. Williams Now say as hear as you can what the Count said Mr. Hanson He said the Polander was a mighty able man and understood horses and the Count had a mind to buy English Horses and intended to have had this Polander as a Groom to dress them after the German way and no man was abler than the Polander to do it and when he spoke of it I went once to the Change and inquired whether the Ship was lost Sir Fran. Win. By whose Directions did you go to inquire whether the Ship were lost Mr. Hanson I had no Direction but only Count Conningsmark's speaking about it Sir Fran. Win. He seemed to be concerned at it did he Mr. Hanson Yes he was afraid that the Polander would be drowned Mr. Williams You say you directed him to clear his Quarters Mr. Hanson Yes I did so Mr. Williams Did you see him again the next day Mr. Hanson Yes he came the next day Mr. Williams Was he the next day in Company with the Count or no Mr. Hanson I brought him to the Count. Sir Fran. Win. Where Mr. Hanson It was a little before Noon because I went the back way and I left him at the Counts Lodging Mr. Williams Did you leave him with the Count Mr. Hanson Yes I did Mr. Williams Pray as long as you were there what passed between the Count and the Polander Mr. Hanson I remember very well what passed between the Count and him for I have thought of it He spoke to him and called him thou as to his Servant and asked him where he had been all the while and he answered he had been at Sea tossed up and down Sir Fra. Withins Pray what directions had you given about a Sword for that Polander Mr. Hanson I went to the Counts Lodgings and being desired by him to stay I desired he would excuse me for I could not stay because I was to go about another Business he told me the Fellow was all naked and he had no man to send to buy him a Riding-Coat I told him I would very willingly and heartily do it And after I had dined I went to an House near the Hay-market and bought a Riding-Coat and brought the Riding-Coat to the Counts Lodgings I delivered it to the Count. Then the Count told me his Man had never a Sword and I asked him how much his Lordship would please to bestow on a Sword he told me a matter of 10s or thereabouts I told him I did not know where I should get such a Sword nor how to send for it because I was to meet his Brother but I withal said it is no matter for that I will take care you shall have it this Evening I went into St. Martins-Lane but could not find ever a Sword worth a Groat Then I went as far as Charing-Cross to a Cutler whom I knew so I told him Sir said I I have a Commission to bestow 10 s. on a Sword for a Servant therefore said I I leave it to your discretion use my Friend well and use your self favourably too I asked him when I should have the Sword he told me in the Evening I told him I would call for it when I came from the Play where I was to be with the Counts Brother When I came back with the young Count Conningsmark from the Play I called for the Sword but he told me it was not ready I seemed to be a little angry and told him that it was strange a Gentleman could not get a little Sword got ready for him in an whole Afternoon Well Sir said he pray do not be impatient I will send you the Sword and afterwards he sent it to the Academy and I afterwards sent the Sword to Count Conningsmarks Lodgings Mr. Williams Pray had you this Direction for the Sword after you had brought the Polander to the Count or before Mr. Hanson Count Conningsmark did never give me any direction or charge to buy a Sword for him but I did offer my Service if he pleased because he said he had no body to send Mr. Williams Sir You do not know the Question or you won't apprehend it pray when had you this direction from the Count to buy this Sword Mr. Hanson On Saturday in the afternoon Mr. Williams When was it you brought the Polander to the Count Mr. Hanson In the morning Sir Fra. Winn. Pray let me ask you another Question when was it you first
of 7000 Pistols to buy Horses Sir Fr. Win. Pray then will you ask him what discourse he had with Count Conningsmark about the death of Mr. Thynne and what the Consequences in Law might be Mr. Craven My Lord he says that the discourse with Count Conningsmark concerning the Swedish Agent was That in case he should ask Satisfaction of Mr. Thynne for the Affronts that he had given him not understanding the Customs of the Nation if he should call him to account what prejudice it might be to him for he did not hear he says that Count Conningsmark designed any thing or resolved upon killing him or any thing of that nature but whether if he should call him to account what the Laws of England might be Mr. Williams Call John Wright Sir N. Johnson My Lord the Count desires to know if he may be permitted to make his Defence against these Witnesses L. Ch. J. No he is not to make his Defence now But pray tell him if my Lord have a desire to ask any Questions of this witness he may ask what he pleases L. Ch. J. North. Let the Question be put to the Interpreter that we may know what the Question is before the Witness gives an Answer Mr. Graven He askes him if he has not seen him oftner in his Lodging undressed than dressed And whether he was not to take Physick from his Physician Mr. Hanson I do not remember that in all the time I saw Count Conningsmark I saw him dressed four times in his Coat I cannot say I remember three times in all The first time when he came he was in a Campaign Coat but all the time he was in his Lodging as I remember he was in his Night-Gown and Cap. As to the other part of his Question whether I heard that he took Physick I say this When I saw Count Conningsmark first at his Lodging when I came to him on the Sunday Evening I was told the Count was in Bed It was late but I ventured to go into his Room and sat a quarter of an hour there and afterwards the Doctor came in Dr. Frederick I saw him oftentimes at his Lodging and at the same time the young Count was sick of an Ague and when he came one Evening to see the young Count I asked him what was the Distemper the Count had the Doctor answered me that he had not told any Body that the Count was sick or what he was sick of but he hoped in God in a short time he would be recovered Mr. Craven He askes him if he gave him any positive order that he should go of any Message to the Swedish Envoy Mr. Hanson This I have answered before and I say now If this discourse that I had with the Swedish Envoy turn to the Lord Count Conningsmark's prejudice it would grate upon my Conscience all my life Count Conningsmark never gave me any posisitive Order to carry any Message but I did gather by his discourse that the Count might be desirous to know the Envoy's Opinion about this Question and therefore I thought the Count desiring it I would do it to please him rather than by Order But I do not know that ever the Count had a mind to give me such an Order but I did it voluntarily L. Ch. J. In plain English Did he ever direct you to go to the Swedish Envoy Mr. Hanson No my Lord he never did direct me L. Ch. Baron How came you to chuse a Forreigner to know what the Laws of England are Mr. Hanson I thought it would please the Count to know his Opinion L. Ch. Bar. But how came you to chuse a Forreigner I ask Mr. Hanson He has been 19 Years here in England and sure he should know Mr. Craven My Lord he asks him if ever he told him that he had a design to fight Mr. Thynne or do him any Prejudice or send him a Challenge Mr. Hanson My Lord I am upon my Oath and this I say I speake it before God and the Court Count Conningsmark did never tell me that he had any mind or did resolve to call Esq Thynne any ways to account Mr. Williams Call John Wright who stood up and was Sworn Sir Fr. Win. We shall ask him but a Question or two my Lord. Mr. Williams Pray tell me the time when this Polander came into England that man at the Bar. Mr. Wright He came the 10th day of this Month. Mr. Williams Pray what Ship did he come in where did you first meet with him Mr. Wright Here in Town Mr. Williams Where was it Mr. Wright At the Cross-Keys in Throgmorton-street Mr. Williams Pray when you first saw him what did he ask you Mr. Wright He asked me where Count Conningsmark's Lodgings were I told him I thought he was at Oxford I meant the young Gentleman for I did not know the other was in Town but I went and enquired and they told me it was at Faubert's Academy Mr. Williams Whither went you with the Polander then Mr. Wright I went to my Lord's Lodgings Mr. Williams What Lord Mr. Wright The young Count's Lodgings Mr. Williams Well and what then Mr. Wright And I came to Mr. Hanson and he did deliver a Letter to Mr. Hanson and I stayed there about half an hour or there-abouts Mr. Williams When was this Mr. Wright Upon Friday the 10th day of this month Mr. Williams How long was Mr. Hanson and the Polander together Mr. Wright About half an hour Mr. Williams What said Hanson to him in your presence Mr. Wright Mr. Hanson said nothing Mr. Williams Was there any thing said about going back and paying his Lodging and coming back Mr. Wright Mr. Hanson came down to me and told me he was glad to see me and bid me take the Polander back with me and bring him to him to morrow betimes for he must dispatch him about his Business Sir Fr. Win. Then he said nothing to the Polander Mr. Wright No but to me Sir Fr. Win. Well what did you do the next morning Mr. Wright I came to him the next morning to this Polander and he took his things with him which was a Sea-bed that he had and a Gun with a Wheel-lock and some other things Sir Fr. Win. And whither did you bring him Mr. Wright I brought him to the upper end of the Hay-market Monsieur Faubert's School Mr. Williams To what place did you come in the morning say you Mr. Wright Sir if it please you I brought him within a Door or two of Mr. Faubert's the Horse-master that teaches to ride the great Horse for he did desire that we might go to an House hard by because he would not carry his carriage to my Lord he had a Sea-bed a Portmantle a Gun and other things and so I brought him to an House and there I called for a Pot of Ale and he put down his things and went out I thought he had gone to make water but within a little
while after returns again and Mr. Hanson comes in with him he asked me why I did not come sooner I told him I had some other Business I was with some French Merchants to look upon some Goods So he bid the Pole pay me for my trouble and take up his things and go along with him and he did do so and I never saw the Pole afterwards L. Cb. J. You that are the Interpreters repeat what he bath said to the Jury which was done Sir Fr. Win. We have done with this man the use we make of him is to follow this Polander and we shall bring him to the Count by and by Call Dr. Frederick Harder who was sworn L. Ch. J. The Doctor understands English don't he Sir Fr. Win. Yes we are told he does Mr. Williams How long have you known the Count that stands there at the Bar Dr. Harder I have known him a good while it may be this four or five Years I have known him four or five Years Mr. VVilliams How long have you known Captain Vratz Dr. Harder About a Year and a half or two Years Mr. VVilliams Was my Lord and Capt. Vratz acquainted then Dr. Harder Yes Mr. Williams Was he in employment under my Lord was he in the Counts Service Dr. Harder He was with the Count but whether he was his Companion I cannot tell Mr. VVilliams Did he live with the Count Dr. Harder Yes Mr. VVilliams Did Capt. Vratz when the Count came last over into England come over with him Dr. Harder Yes by my knowledg L. Ch. J. Do you know it or not Dr. Harder Capt. Vratz came to me and told me my Lord desired to speak with me and I went with him to my Lord. Sir Fr. Win. Was that the first Message you received from the Count Dr. Harder Yes it was Mr. Williams How long was that ago Dr. Harder The same day the Morocco Embassador did exercise in Hide-Park Sir Fr. Win. How long is that ago Dr. Harder About a month ago Sir Fr. Win. What was that his first Lodging after he came last into England Dr. Harder It was in the Hay-market L. Ch. J. Was it a corner House as the other Witness saith or not Dr. Harder Yes it was Mr. Williams Was the Count a private Lodger there Dr. Harder He lay in his Bed when I came to him he came as a Traveller privately Mr. Williams Did he go by his own Name or another Name Dr. Harder No Body did question him about his Name but when I did come to him I did discourse him about his Body Mr. Williams Pray Sir thus you went often to visit him pray did you enquire for him by his own Name or any other Name Dr. Harder He desired that he might be private because he was to take some Medicines and he would not have it known Mr. Williams Now Sir I would ask you did you observe him to be in any Disguise Did he wear a Perriwig or how Dr. Harder He had a Perriwig Mr. Williams Was it a fair Perriwig or what colour Dr. Harder It was brown or black Sir Fr. Win. Sir was he in a disguise or no Dr. Harder He had his own Clothes but he had a Perriwig Sir Fr. Win. Pray what Name did he go by his right Name or any particular Name Dr. Harder In the first beginning I gave him no Name but said he to me If any Body ask you about me I would not be known for if they know that I lie privately thus they will think I ail some ill Distemper therefore I would have you call me by the Name of Carlo Cuski Mr. Williams Were you with him pray Sir upon the Sunday Morning that Mr. Thynne was murdered Dr. Harder I cannot certainly tell but I was with him in the afternoon Sir Fr. Win. Pray call your self to mind Sir Dr. Harder I cannot certainly tell Sir Fr. Win. What time were you with him in the Evening Dr. Harder At nine a Clock at night or thereabouts Mr. Williams Did you receive any Letter from Capt. Vratz at any time Dr. Harder I did upon Saturday morning the Saturday before Mr. Thynne was murdered Sir Fr. Win. Have you that Letter about you Dr. Harder No. Sir Fr. Win. What was in the Letter Dr. Harder He desired me to go to the Count who had a desire to speak with me I came there and had some speech with him about his Indisposition I told him he had better stay till next day before he took Physick because it was cold Weather And after that went with the Polander to my Lodging and the Captains man came in and then said here is a man that will direct you to Capt. Vratz Lodging which I did not know Mr. Williams Look you Sir you say you went to the Count Did you shew the Count that Letter from Capt. Vrats or no Dr. Harder The Count saw it Mr. Williams Then hear a little When was it you shew'd the Letter to the Count Was it Saturday or Sunday Dr. Harder It was Saturday Mr. Williams Now was the Polander then in the Count's Lodgings or no Dr. Harde Yes he was Mr. Williams Was there any discourse about him then Dr. Harder I had never seen him in my life Mr. VVilliams But was there any with the Count Dr. Harder No not at all Sir Fr. VVin. Then upon your Oath I ask you once more Was the Polander ever in Company with you and my Lord at any time Dr. Harder No. Sir Fr. VVin. Upon the Sunday upon your Oath Dr. Harder No. Sir Fr. VVin. Nor the Saturday evening Dr. Harder No I have not seen him since that morning when the Captains man took him along with him to his Master Mr. Williams Pray how came the Polander into your company on Saturday morning Dr. Harder I had him from my Lords that morning Mr. Williams Then my Lord and the Polander were together Dr. Harder No they were not together Mr. VVilliams Was the Polander in my Lord's Lodgings Dr. Harder Yes the Polander was below stairs Mr. VVilliams And did you take him from the Lodging Dr. Harder Yes I did Mr. VVilliams How long did he continue with you Dr. Harder Not at all I went home with him Mr. VVilliams Had you no discourse with him Dr. Harder No none at all Mr. VVilliams Where did you part with him Dr. Harder I brought him to my House and when he came in a Doors the Captain 's man being there I told him there was a man would shew him the Captains Lodgings and he took him away along with him Mr. VVilliams You say the Captains Man had the Polander from you pray name that man Dr. Harder I cannot tell his Name Mr. VVilliams Was his name Berg Dr. Harder I believe it was Sir Fr. VVin. You say you delivered a Letter from Capt. Vratz on Saturday morning to the Count Dr. Harder Yes Sir Fr. VVin. Did the Count read the Letter and tell you the Contents of
Answer how came you to tell those Gentlemen that took you that you believed Mr. Uratz and the rest would have done the Duke of Monmouth no harme Interpreter He says the people told when he was taken that the Duke of Monmouth was in the Coach and that they did follow the Coach a great way and would not do the Action till the Duke of Monmouth was out of the Coach Count. They did tell me the Crowd that were about me that those that were taken say'd they would not do it till the Duke was out Interpreter And he says that gave him sufficient reason to say to Mr. Gibbons that he did believe they had no design upon his Grace the Duke of Monmouth L. C. J. He heard it so commonly it seems Now my Lord there is one thing more that you should explain your self in what you meant by this when you said it would be a stain upon your bloud yet one Noble Act in War or the Lodging upon a Counterscarp would wash it off Interpreter He says my Lord that tho he knew himself Not Guilty of any thing yet his being taken upon suspition and clapped up in Prison would be a great disgrace to him and would be worse resented in his own Country than the thing it self was It being not the Custom in his Country to take Persons of his Quality Prisoners in that manner L. C. J. Now my Lord Is there any person that you would have called to ask any Questions of If you have they shall be called Count. No my Lord but if you please to give me leave to tell something that may be necessary Then he spake in Dutch Sir N. Johnson My Lord he says if you will give him leave though it does not come very well from himself yet he desires to say something for his own Reputation Mr. Williams He should be armed with Witnesses to make his defence L. C. J. T is fit for men that stand here to say any thing that is reasonable for themselves My Lord If you can speak anything that you apprehend the Jury can understand speak to them what you please so as they understand it but do not be too long Mr. Craven My Lord If your Lordship please he says he will speak it first in French and then in German L. C. J. Ay but then the English man of the Jury will not understand a word of it he had better speak in English to the Jury L. C. J. North. My Lord It is an Indifferent thing it may be Interpreted not being matter of Fact Sr. N. Johnson My Lord he says it is a great happiness in all his trouble that he was in a Country where he was to appear before a Protestant Judicature himself being a Protestant and his fore-Fathers also He says that his fore-Fathers under Gustaphus Adolphus were souldiers and did there with their Swords in their hands and the loss of their bloud endeavour to settle the Protestant Religion in Germany and protect it there he says that it has been the honour of himself and his Family that they have always been ready to venture their bloud and their Lives for the advantage of the Protestant Religion as the Examples of his Grand-father and Father do shew and there never was any thing done by his family but what was done for the Honour of his Country and his Religion and he says that if any of his former Actions can give any the least suspition of his being Guilty of this or any foul Fact he is very willing to lay down his Life and very willing to have it cut off imediately Count. Imediately Sr. N. Johnson He says that he is very ready upon all occasions to serve the King of England and that he loves the English Nation so well as always to be ready to do any thing to serve them Count. without any interest in the World against the will of all my Relation and I have brought my Brother into England to be brought up into the Protestant Religion to shew my Inclinations to the Religion and the English Nation Ld. Ch. Just Have you done Sr. Fra. Winn. Yes my Lord We have done with our Evidence and we have no matter of fact to reply unto but we think it is our duty considering the defence my Lord has made that we should take some care to put the Kings Evidence a little together it being a case of such nature and so cruel and horrid a Murder My Lord and you Gentlemen of the Jury I am of Counsel here for the King and you are Gentlemen upon an inquiry to find out the Offendors in a very great a barbarous and a wilful Murder And my Lord in relation to the Principals I need not spend your Lordship and the Jurys time about them for all those three Men that are indicted as Principals do my Lord confess the fact tho they do it in a different manner and tho in forme of Law they are pleaded not Guilty yet when they come to be asked the Question there Guilt flys in their faces and they cannot deny it So then for those three Men there is no need to spend time in repeating the Evidence But my Lord that that seems to require the consideration of the Jury is whether this wicked and horrid Murder be only circumscribed in the Guilt of it to those three Men that have confessed it or whether any rational man in the World will beleive upon the account they give themselves that they only had a design a study or a delight to kill this Innocent Gentleman No my Lord the thing must lie a little deeper and there must be some other reason why this barbarous Murder was committed I would crave your pardon for what I say My Lord I would not speak any thing that should mislead a Jury in matters of bloud and I think it was rightly sayd by your Lordship that when a Man is tryed for his Life We ought all to behave ourselves seriously as in a matter of weight and moment And so it is I think a very serious thing and a matter of concernment to us all to inquire who hath shed Innocent bloud for such was this poor Gentlemans bloud that was killed Innocent bloud My Lord this Count is a very unhappy Person to have such a Relation as has been proved to be of the Principals I will do my Lord no wrong in the repetition if I do and am mistaken I crave your direction I am sure you will correct me in it Two of the Persons that are Principals that was Captain Uratz and the Polander happen'd to be Persons Relating to my Lords family as his servants For it is agreed by the Witnesses that were that Counts friends that I came over into England with the Count the last time he came over in that private manner and 't is likewise proved and not denyed by him that Captain Uratz was frequently with him not only to the very day when this
at the Fact Mr. Bridgman Yes he confessed he was at the Fact and he said when he came beyond Charing-cross he was about ten yards before and he heard the Captain say Stop to the Coach upon which he turned about and presently saw the shot made and he saw the other persons ride away and he made away after them and the Captain further told him that he would give two or three or four hundred Crowns to find a man that would kill Mr. Thynne Sir Fr. Win. What did he speak about Stabbing or about an Italian Mr. Bridgman He said that the Captain desired him to get an Italian that would Stab a man and that he would get two Ponyards for that purpose and that it was before the Polonian came over L. C. J. This is no Evidence against the Captain but pray will you tell Sterne the Lieutenant what it is that Mr. Bridgman does testifie against him that he acknowledged thus and thus before him And pray speak it again Mr. Bridgman Mr. Bridgman The Captain told that Gentleman that he had a Quarrel with a Gentleman with whom he was resolved to fight that he wanted a good Servant and if he would assist him he would make his Fortune that he gave him money to buy the Musquetoon and owned he was there that he went out with the Captain and Polander on Horseback about five or six a clock on Sunday that they went toward Charing-cross and when they were gone beyond Charing-cross into the Palmall he heard the Captain say to the Coachman Stop and turning immediately he see the shot go off and that they riding away he followed them and that before the Polander came over the Captain desired him to get an Italian to stab a man Then that was Interpreted to Sterne Mr. Craven My Lord he denies that he spoke any thing of Four hundred pound or about the Italian L. C. J. Tell him it is testified that he confessed he was at the Shooting of this Gentleman Mr. Craven He says he was there and being about ten yards off he heard one say Hold to the Coach but he cannot say it was the Captain Sir Fr. Win. But was he there Mr. Craven Yes he says he was Sir Fra. Win. Who caused him to be there L. C. J. Ask him upon what occasion he was there Mr. Craven He says the Captain intreated him to be there to be his Second to fight with a Gentleman and that was the reason L. C. J. Pray tell him 't is testified here that he bought the Musquetoon and charged it Mr. Craven He says he did assist at the loading of it he was by Sir Fr. Win. Pray my Lord let us know who it was assisting him L. C. J. Why that is no Evidence against any body Sir Fr. Win. But my Lord it was delivered to the Polander charged and we desire to know who loaded it L. C. J. North. That is no Evidence but yet the Question may be asked and the Jury may be told 't is no Evidence L. C. J. But we must not let the Jury be possessed by that which is not Evidence L. C. J. North. Pray will you ask him Mr. Craven who helped him to load the Gun Mr. Craven The Captain was by he says and the Captain and he did it together Sir Fra. Win. Now we will ask Sir John Reresby the same Questions you were by Sir at the Examinations of these three men pray what did the Polander say upon his Examination Sir John Reresby My Lord I cannot charge my Memory with the particulars but if your Lordship pleases I will read it L. C. J. No refresh your memory with it and then tell us the substance of it Sir John Reresby In general he did confess to me that he was the person that did discharge the Blunderbus into Mr. Thynn's Coach and that he was commanded so to do by Captain Vratz L. C. J. That is the substance of all Sir Fra. Win. That is as to him but what did Captain Vratz say L. C. J. He said that he did go out with an intention to fight with Mr. Thynne and did take these persons with him that he did not order the Polander to discharge but he mistook him when he bid the Coach-man stand the other apprehended he bid him shoot and he did so Mr. Williams What said Sterne Sir John Reresby Stern did say this that the Captain told him he had a quarrel with an English Gentleman and desired him to go along with him and assist him in it and be his second but said he I was chiefly carried out to keep off the people in case there should be a croud about them when they were fighting this is the chief part of what they did confess L. C. J. We would not trouble you with more than is material Did he acknowledge he was there at the time when he was shot Sir John Reresby Yes he did about nine or ten yards off I think L. C. J. All three confessed they were there Sir John Reresby Yes they did so L. C. J. North. They had a design of killing which was unlawful Sir John Reresby They said they came on purpose to fight Sir Fra. Win. Call Michael Fenderoston My Lord we would willingly spare your time and offer only what is proper in this Case and now we shall produce our Evidence against the Count and if any thing fall out in that Evidence that touches these three men which we think will be but the killing of dead men your Lordship will take notice of it Now we shall not go to open the heads of our Evidence against the Count Sir Francis Withins has given an account of the general and our Witnesses will best declare it Mr. Williams We will begin with Frederick Hanson Who was swora and stood up Mr. Hanson How long have you known Count Conningsmark Mr. Hanson A matter of four years Mr. Williams Pray do you remember his last coming into England Mr. Hanson Yes my Lord I do remember it Mr. Williams Then let us know the time Mr. Hanson I think 't is above a moneth since Mr. Williams Where was his Lodging first Mr. Hanson The first time I saw him was in the Post-house Mr. Williams Did he come privately or publickly Mr. Hanson Privately to my best knowledge Mr. Williams Which was his first Lodging Mr. Hanson In the Hay-market Mr. Williams Where there Mr. Hanson At the corner house Mr. Williams How long did he continue there Mr. Hanson A matter of a week Mr. Williams Pray in all that time did he keep privately at home or did he go abroad sometimes Mr. Hanson I believe he kept his Chamber all the time Mr. Williams Were you with him at any time there Mr. Hanson Yes I was Mr. Williams What Company did use to be with him to your knowledge Mr. Hanson To my knowledge I have seen Dr. Frederick in his Company Mr. Williams One Dr. Frederick you say who else Mr.
might be if the Laws of England would be contrary to him in the hopes or pretensions he might have to my Lady Ogle Mr. Williams You mince your words mightily pray remember your self did he speak of killing Mr. Thynne or that Mr. Thynne should be destroyed Mr. Hanson No his Phrase was if he should have an advantage of him when he should meddle with him or call him to an account what the Consequence might be I can say this upon my Conscience Sir Fran. Win. Sir you are in a place where you are Sworn to speak the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth what Relation have you to Count Conningsmark's Family Mr. Hanson I have no Relation to the Family at all Sir Fran. Win. Are not you Governour to the young Count Mr. Hanson The Countess has given me her younger Son for me to be his Companion in his Travels Sir Fran. Win. Sir I ask you a plain Question let it lye at your own door if you won't tell the Truth had you any Conversation with Count Conningsmark wherein he did desire you to ask advice of the Swedish Envoy or Resident here about duelling Mr. Thynne or in case he should kill Mr. Thynne or upon any such account Mr. Hanson My Lord I say this was spoken in several Languages by the Count in Dutch by my self to the Envoy in French and I do know I Swore before the King and Counsel but I cannot lay this to Count Conningsmark's Charge for then I must forswear my self Sir Fran. Win. Sir you can answer me all my Questions in English if you please what the Discourse was L. C. J. Pray Sir thus what was the Discourse as near as you can remember it between Count Conningsmark and you relating to Mr. Thynne L. C. J. North. Tell the whole Sir for you are bound to tell the whole indifferently Sir Fran. Win. And pray remember what you Swore in another Place Mr. Hanson The Count sent to me a Note that he had a mind to speak with me and he entertained me with a familiar Discourse about his Travelling and about the setling of his business and theâ—â—upon he fell upon other Discourse about Mr. Thynne and not to mistake having hâ—â—â—me in my own Chamber I have put it down in writing to satisfie my Lord and all this Honourable Court what I can say about this Matter Mr. Hanson reads 'T is very hard to give a true account L. C. J. Read it to your self if you will and tell us the Substance Mr. Hanson If my words may not turn to the prejudice of my Lord Count Conningsmark but this is the substance of the thing my Lord Count Conningsmark did tell me in familiar Discourse that Esquire Thynne had spoken some reflecting Words upon him he did desire to know if he did call him to account whether in this case the Laws of England might not go contrary to his Design in his Pretensions that he might have upon my Lady Ogle And in that familiar Discourse he seemed to think that Monfieur Lienburgh could give him advice In a little while afterwards I was paying my respects to the Envoy and reflecting upon the Counts Conversation I spoke to him about this business and his answer was this he told me that if he should meddle with Mr. Thynne he would have no good living in England But as to the particular Question what the Consequence of the Law might be he did not know but inquire and tell me but I never asked him any Question about it afterwards And if my Conversation with this Count or with Monsieur Lienburgh should turn to the Count's prejudice I should be answerable for it to God and my own Conscience all the dayes of my Life I desire Mr. Thynne's blood might be revenged but I desire also that innocent Blood may be spared Sir Fra. Win. Pray Sir will you look upon that Paper you signed it L. C J. North. Only to recollect your Memory Then he was shew'd his Examination before the Council L. C. J. Now you have read it over that there is under your own hand do you now again deliver the substance of your discourse you had with Count Conningsmark as you will stand by it Mr. Hanson I see that there are expressions in this Paper L. C. J. Speak not what is in that Paper but what discourse as near as you can you had with Count Conningsmark Mr. Hanson My Discourse with Count Conningsmark was this in a familiar Discourse amongst other things he spoke that he heard Esq Thynne had affronted him I don't know upon what Subject but I believe it was words reflecting upon him and his Horse he did not tell me that he desired me to go nor did he give me any positive charge to go to the Swedish Envoy but by the discourse I had with him I did understand that he was desirous to have his advice I thought his inclinations were that I should go and ask his advice I did not go on purpose to do the Message nor did I receive any order that can be called a Message in my Life to my remembrance but when I came to pay my respects in a familiar Discourse I did propose this to the Envoy what might be the Consequence if the Count should call Mr. Thynne to account and he told me the same Answer that I have already told you Now this I desire only to consider that it was spoken in divers Languages and if a man should write down my Expressions now as they came from me they would upon reading perhaps appear not so well so if these Expressions of mine should turn to Count Conningsmark's prejudice as that I should Swear that this Phrase of killing or duelling was used or that ever Count Conningsmark told me that he resolved to call or that he would call him to an account I might do him wrong perhaps but if he should call him to account what might be the Consequence of it Sir Fran. Win. I would not intangle you but only I would seek after the Truth I do not ask you positively whether he did bid you go to ask advice of the Swedish Envoy that he did resolve so and so but did he discourse it thus if he should Duel him or Fight him Mr. Hanson As I am before God Almighty I cannot say I heard such Expressions Mr. Williams Pray Sir you confess you acquainted the Envoy with it Mr. Hanson Yes Mr. Williams Did you bring the Envoy's Answer to the Gent. or no Mr. Hanson If I should be upon the Gospel I am sure I cannot exactly tell what was the Expression L. C. Baron What was it that you discerned he doubted if he did call Mr. Thynne to account Sir Fra. Win. He spoke in relation to a Marriage pray what was it Mr. Williams What did that if relate to Mr. Hanson If he should ask him satisfaction about it having heard that he had spoken abusive words of him Sir Fra.
heard Mr. Thynne was kill'd Mr. Hanson I heard it I believe about eight a Clock in the evening on Sunday Sir Fra. Winn. Had you any Discourse with the Count about the Murder Mr. Hanson Yes I had Sir Fra. Winn. Pray tell what that Discourse was Mr. Hanson I was at Whitehall till ten of the Clock and then I went to the Count but I desire this may not be taken as an extraordinary Visit because I used to go to him on the Sundays in the Evenings and those 3 sundays before he was taken I used to come to him in the Evening after I had been at Whitehall When I came into his Lodgings I found him in his Night-cap and Night-gown he asked me what News I told him I could tell him great News and that was of the killing of Esq Thynne who was Shot in his Coach The Embassador of Savoy had told me all that he had heard about it and I told it him After I had spoken of this Business he asked me where his Brother was I told him his Brother was at the Duke of Richmonds And after some Discourse I went away Sir Fra. Winn. When you told him of the Murder of Mr. Thynne did he make no Answer nor say any thing about it Mr. Hanson He did not make me any Answer by which I could conclude that Count Conningsmark was any way concerned in the Business Sir Fra. Withins Pray Sir I ask you upon your Oath the Count is a man of great Quality himself When you told him of such an horrid Murder what did he say nothing about it Mr. Hanson He asked me several Questions what the People did say but I would not make any mistake Sir Fra. Winn. Tell all he said Sir about it Mr. Hanson I told him the greatest News I heard was the killing of Mr. Thynne and I told him who brought the News and I told him the Court was heartily angry at it that such an Accident should happen and I said it was an Italian trick not used in England Sir Fra. Winn. What said he then Mr. Williams Pray do you remember what he said Mr. Hanson What I have Answered now He made me such Questions upon this story as I have told you L. Ch. J. Let him explain himself pray as near as you can relate what Discourse you had with Count Conningsmark that Sunday night after you came to him and told him of the Murder Sir Fra. Winn. What did he say to you Mr. Hanson I will tell you my Lord the Count was surprized as every man would be to hear of so sad an Accident and so the Count asked me what the People said so I told him what I heard at Whitehall I cannot call to my memory all the Particulars but I said the King was heartily sorry and all the Court for so sad an Accident and I must wrong my self or Count Conningsmark if I should undertake to relate exactly what passed for I cannot remember it Mr. VVilliams But you said just now that you told the Count it looked like an Italian Trick not used in England Mr. Hanson Yes I did so Mr. VVilliams What did he reply to that Mr. Hanson Not a word Mr. VVilliams Did he mention any thing of Fortifications to you then Mr. Hanson Yes he gave me a Plain or a Draught of a Fortification done with his own Hand and that was all the discourse Mr. VVilliams So then he diverted the discourse to the business of Fortification L. Ch. J. The Evidence is heard what it is that he ended all the discourse with shewing him a Paper of Fortifications Sir Fr. VVin. But this he does say He asked him what the people did say of it Mr. Hanson For my Life I dare not say I remember any more than I have told L. Ch. J. Look you Sir now will you in French deliver this for the benefit of those Jury-men that don't understand English Mr. VVilliams We pray my Lord our Interpreter may do it L. Ch. J. When a Man can speak both Languages he needs no Interpreter he is his own best Interpreter Mr. VVilliams My Lord I will tell you why I ask it there is a great deal of difference I find where you examine a man with the Hair and where you examine him against the Hair where you find it difficult to make a man answer you will pump him with Questions and cross interrogate him to sift out the Truth now if you leave this Man to the interpretation of what he hath said himself he will make a fine Story of it and we shall be never the wiser L. Ch. J. You may examine him in French if you will Mr. VVilliams And I understand none but Pedlers French Sir Fr. VVin. The truth of it is what your Lordship says cannot be opposed regularly but I do appeal to your Lordship and all the Judges and all the Court whether this man does answer like an ingenuous man you see he shifts L. Ch. J. I do not see it nor do I believe any see he shifts in any thing you ask of him either he tells you what the Question is or the reason of it how far that is a Reason is left to the Jury to consider Sir Fr. Win. Certainly it can do no hurt to have an Interpreter L. Ch. J. North. My Lord if there be two ways to take 't is best to take that which will give satisfaction to all Persons let him be asked by the Interpreter what Questions the Counsel would have answered and then let him to tell his Answer in French L. Ch. J. If that be liked better let it be so Mr. Craven can you tell the substance of the Evidence that this Gentlemen hath given Mr. Craven No I cannot his Evidence has been so long and so many cross Questions have been asked Sir Fr. Win. I would spare your time L. Ch. J. But this is the way to spend our time Sir Fr. Win. I know your Lordship does not value time in such a case as this is but you would have the Truth found out L. Ch. Just You must repeat first the discourse you had with Count Conningsmark Sir Fr. Win. My Lord we will reduce it to two or three Questions Mr. Craven will you please to ask him what discourse he had with Count Conningsmark Mr. Craven He says the discourse he had with Count Conningsmark about the Polander was that he came over as a Groom to serve him to look after his Horses that he had occasion for several English Horses and English Servants to look after them as Grooms and among the rest of his Grooms he intended the Polander should be one to dress his Horses after the German way Sir Fr. Win. So far he goes as to that That the Polander came over to serve the Count. L. Ch. J. Look you Sir does not he tell you the Count had a purpose to buy Horses here Mr. Craven He says there was a discourse about Bills of Exchange
necessity get him a Coat or else he was a shame to him and his Service And as for the Sword it was no more he says then what Servants of his bulke and making used to wear Sr. N. Johnson And he says all the Servants of Gentlemen in Germany wear such broad Swords L. C. Justice You know it your self Sr. Nathanael Johnson you have travelled there S. N. Johnson Yes my Lord they do and the Poles much broader and greater Swords then the others Here is one in Court that hath a great broad Sword now by his Side L. C. Justice Now my Lord it will import you to give some accompt how you having brought over this Polander as you say to choose Horses and help you in the management of them to take care of them in the nature of a Groom how you came to part with him to Captain Vratz assoon as he came over Interpreter My Lord he says Being that he was sick himself and there was no hopes of the Alliance between England and Holland he had no such occasion for him as when he wrote for him and therefore saw no reason to keep him L. C. Justice How long was it before that he wrote for him Count. My Lord after the Siege of Strasburgh when every body thought there would have been a War but it was not so therefore I had not need of him but he had been 7 Weeks at Sea and my Lord 't is a common thing in Germany Interpreter He says 't is common thing in their Country to give Servants away if there be no occasion for them Count. My Lord t is a common thing in Germany it may be it may not be so much used in England to give a Servant away L. C. Baron What! the next day that he comes over L. C. J. What say you Sir Nathaniel Johnson Sir N. Johnson Yes my Lord 't is very frequent in Germany to give a Servant away if there be no use of him for these Polanders are like slaves Interpreter And my Lord he says that Mr. Russel does know that the Merchant that sent him over hither is a man of good Repute and if this man had had an ill Reputation in Germany he would not have sent him Witness My Lord I know very well he is a man of very great Credit in Hamburgh and of great Estate L. C. J. Did he send over this Polander Witness Yes my Lord so I understand L. C. J. Can you speak of his Credit Sir Nathaniel Johnson Witness Of the Merchant's Credit I can my Lord I know him to be a man of considerable Estate and Credit He is a man of such a Reputation that he would not send a man of an ill Reputation L. C. Baron Oh Sir Nemo repente fit turpissimus He could not be so ill a man at the first dash he must be a man probable for such a service Sir Fr. Winn. You may observe my Lord how Sir Nathaniel Johnson who is Interpreter in the Case is a Witness and argues for the Prisoner too Mr. Williams Pray Sir Nathaniel is a Rancounter the killing a Man after this manner Sir N. Johnson A Rancounter is another sort of thing Sir you don't speak as if you were a Souldier Mr. Williams My being a Souldier or not is nothing to the business but the Captain said he intended to have made a Rancounter of it Sir Francis Winn. But my Lord we desire to take notice of Sir Nathaniel's forwardness for it may be a President in other Cases L. C. J. What do you talk of a President When did you see a President of alike Tryal of Strangers that could speak not a word of English but you would feign have the Court thought hard of for doing things that are extraordinary in this Case Mr. Craven My Lord he desires he may inform the Jury what he sent for this Polander for L. C. J. Let him Then the Count spake it in French and Dutch L. C. J. My Lord another thing is this How came your Lordship presently to go away in such a private secret manner and to direct your Cloaths to be sent as it were to Windsor And your self to go away and to make such a private withdrawing of your self down the River in this manner Mr. Craven My Lord he says that one Markham that is here came and told him that upon the killing of this Man by the Polander and the Captain who were taken in such a fact there was a discourse of it that it might turn to his prejudice and that the Common people do commonly fall upon Strangers that his Taylor told him that he had heard the Common people name him as concerned in it and that he believed if the Common people did catch him they would tear him to pieces and so his friends did Counsel him that he would withdraw himself L. C. J. Is the Taylor here call him Interpreter Call Markham the Taylor who stood up Sir N. Johnson My Lord he says that he was afraid the people might tear him to pieces before he could come to justify himself L. C. J. Look you friend did you come to Count Coningsmark's Lodgings after Mr. Thynne was killed on the Monday morning Markham Yes L. C. J. What did you tell him Markham I told him nothing but I was sent there by Mr. Hanson says he tell the Count that the Duke of Monmouth and several Noble-men have been here Now I had not seen the Count at that time before but he told me where he Lodged when I came there I told the Count of it but he told me he knew nothing of it but sayd he I am sorry if any such thing be done L. C J. But what did you say his friends advised him to about it Markham I did say nothing of it Then the Count spake to him in Dutch Markham That was afterwards L. C. J. What was that afterwards Markham I was told the people said if he were taken he would be knocked on the head L. C. J. What time afterwards was it Markham After he went away L. C. J. Who told you so then Markham Mr. Hanson told me so then I would not tell a lye for all the World Count. He can tell also when I went away the rest he spake in Dutch Interpreter He says this man can witness that he asked his man what money he had left and he told him that he had not above 10. or 11 l. so he put his hand in his bag and took out some and put it into his pocket Count. So ill was I provided for an escape L. C. J. Ask him that Question do you know any thing of what money he took with him Markham No I saw him take an handful of Silver but what it was I can't tell Mr. Thynne He had 7 or 8 l. about him when he was taken Interpreter He desires leave to tell it to the Jury which he did L. C. J. Now my Lord this will require some