you justifie them as men begotten to God and you justifie their standing there Thus doe you sow pillowes of flatteries under their elbowes But you neede not to feare any mans comming to steale your Disciples away by night as the Jewes gave out falsely of Christs naturall body for that was but a lie therefore let no man presume to lie by their example But you say therefore you ought to watch against us and ought not to sleepe least they should be stolne * away I answer so did the Jewes watch the naturall body of Christ and yet he by his power raised himselfe and also departed from them even so by the same power will he raise from the death of sinne many that are amongst you and will cause them to separate themselves from your false worshipping and from you that are false worshippers and he will tell them where he feedeth his sheepe and causeth them to lie downe at noone * Neither can you cleare your selfe by saying you â—iâ—ty them and love them and would not have such a sword as a tolerátion put into their hands as you are pleased to say to hurt them though some amongst them say you might perhaps use it better I pray you feare not this which you here call an error on the right hand but rather feare your Church if as you say your Liturgie and Ceremonies stand still in force which you say were the causes that bred the Separates * I tell you if the sa ne cause remaine you may justly feare it will take the same effect you have also as great cause to feare the prophanenesse and Atheisme which is seated in the hearts of most of your people but onely that you blesse your selfe in hope that all ignorant and scandalous persons shall be driven out But I pray you tell me whither doe you intend to drive them if you leave them anywhere in the Land they will be still of your Church except you will make you a new Church But if you should drive them out of the Land you would leave many places of the Land uninhabited for the generalitie of the people in most parts be ignorant and prophane and thus you may see your selfe in a great streight and therfore you have great cause to feare Further you say the Author would intimate that the honest soules are with them and would be for their way but as for those that are against their way and Toleration they are not such honest soules If this Author be the Protestation Protested you have wrested his words for he hath not said they are not such honest soules neither hath he entred into judgement against any But further you say you would have them know that the honest soules are not onely with them for in the Church of England say you there ever have beene and are honest Ministers and people that have rejected our way and any that fell to it nay the greatest Nonconformists and most able in that way you say have written the most against our way and laboured upon all occasions to preserve the people from falling to us For answer whereof I must tell you that the Ministers and people were never the honester for ' rejecting of that way which hath beene proved to be the way of God though they were the greatest Nonconformists in the world for it is not our way properly but the gift of the Father which he hath given us to walke in and surely it is no signe of honesty to commend the Saints in their infirmities or to condemne them in their workes of pietie I say it is no signe of an honest soule to speak evill of such a holy way I tell you I take Hugh Latimer to be an honest soule though he have declared both by word and writing against such as you and affirmed that a lay man fearing God is much more fit to understand the holy Scripture then a proud and arrogant Priest yea then the Bishop himselfe be hee never so great and glistering in all his pontificalls and such honest soules though they are not of the Clergie but of those whom you call the Layetie are the fittest men on the earth to make Churches and to chuse their owne Ministers as I said before though they be Trades-men and such as these have dependancie upon Christ alone whose way is properly the sincere way of God And as for any that have writ against this way or against those who walke uprightly in it it will not make much for their account for that part of their worke shall burne as well as yours though they may be saved and as for these Authors which here you bring which have beene so carefull as you say to keepe the people from falling into that way I have reade some of their bookes and found the most of them prophesie sad things against he Church of England except she repent THeir sixth Reason you say is that they are good men and men of great gifts and therefore they should be tolerated to have such Churches it is pitty they should leave the Land and wee loose their prayers Indeede Mr. Edwards this may be some other mans Reason on their behalfe but I hardly beleeve that they lived so farre from good neighbours that they must thus set forth their owne praise But for answer to this Reason in the first place you say the better men they be and the more able the worse to set up separated Churches To this I answer that I ever conceived by the Scripture that those that Christ ordained to plant his Churches were good men as it was said of Barnabas that he was a good man * and the very like was said of Stephen * and therefore me thinks you are shreudly mistaken But further you say they will the more indanger the peace of the Kingdome and make the Schismes greater I answer If it be good and able men that indanger the peace of the Kingdome you may doe well to perswade the Parliament to keepe still in your Church all the dumb and drunken Priests for they are bad enough and unable to doe good and yet of my knowledge they are very able to disturbe the peace and to breed strife and to bring Gods judgements upon the Land which is able to make a greater Schisme than you are a ware of Secondly you say for their prayers you have the benefit of them as well when they are absent as present and some of them have saâ— say you they prayed more for England when out of it than in it Indeede if they did so they did well for that was their duty but I suppose you for your particular had little benefit of those prayers and that because God hath hardened your heart even against them and all good men Thirdly For these their prayers you have rewarded them with an accusation namely that they left the Kingdome when it was in greatest danger and in most neede of helpe and provided for
the 2 Pet. 2. 2. That many shall follow their destruction and some of them shall doe it through covetousnesse who shall with fained words make merchandise of the Lords people as is plaine in the next verse whose destruction sleepeth not But who these creepers in be appeares by the 15. verse of this Chapter That they were they that loved the wages of unrighteousnesse as Balaam did But if any one so doe his last end shall be worse ' then his beginning Thus much for your ninth Reason IN your Tenth Reason you affirme That the first principle of the Independant way is That two or three Saints wheresoever or by what meanes soever they doe arise separating themselves from the world into the fellowship of the Gospell are a Church truely gathered for this you quete Mr. Robinsons Iustification pag. 221. But in that page there is no such thing written as I can finde but seeing it commeth so neere the truth we neede not to contend about it For I doe affirme that a company of Saints Separated from the world and gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell by what meanes so ever it be that matters not so it be by the teaching of the Sonne of God according to that in Heb. 1. 1. these Saints I say separating themselves and being gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell though they combine themselves without the warrant of the Governours are a true Church and have right to all Gods Ordinances not onely to admit men into fellowship but also to admonish to reprove and to cast out of their societie all obstinate offenders amongst them that doe transgresse either against the first or second Table having as hath beene said before the Spirit of God to guide them and wisedome from above to judge of persons and causes within the Church though they have nothing to doe to judge those that are without And this doth not make way for Libertisnime for Heresies and Sectaries as you say neither doth it make men to runne from their owne Ministers because they restraine them from sinne or keepe them to Gods Ordinances as you doe affirme for if any separate for any such cause they shall not be received into fellowship nor justified of any of the Lords people But the way of the Gospell as hath beene plainely proved is not to live without Gods Ordinances nor to live at liberty as you say except you meane the liberty wherein Christ hath set them and commanded them to stand fast because he hath made them free Gal. 5. 1. By this you may see the Saints are called into liberty but not a liberty to sinne as you would insinuate but to be freed from the yoake of bondage which is the tyranny or tyrannicall government of the Canon Lawes either of Rome or England But you say all heretickes Sectaries or libertines will count themselves Saints as well as the Independant men and the reason you seeme to give for this is because the Ministers and Magistrats of the Kingdome shall not have power to determine who be Saints * Now let all men judge what a weighty argument this is who is he that knows any thing knows not this that the Priests in England which are the Bishops creatures do generally justifie the wicked and condemne the just and are not these meet men to judge Saints they justifie none that will not be conformable and yeeld unto the traditions which they have invented in their Councels and Convocations though they have not one title of Gods Word to warrant them Furthermore they condemne all that will not submit to their devised worship even in all the traditions thereof and this is the dependancie which they have brought all men unto both high and low even to be subject to their wills which is a Law But now touching the Magistrate you would seeme to inferre that he should have no more power than a Priest It is plaine the Priests have no power but what they have by permission and sufferance though they have dependancie upon the Pope himselfe but the Magistrate hath power given him of God by whom he is set up for the praise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill doers and hath the same rule given him whereby to judge them that God hath given to his Church especially Christian Magistrates notwithstanning they are opposed yet they have power given of God as you may reade in Acls 7 35. This man Moses whom they forsooke saying who maâ—e thee a Prince and a Iudge the same God sent for a Prince and a deliverer and this is he which was as a God unto Aaron when Aaron was as the mouth of Moses to the people Exod. 4. 16. Now if you Priests could have proved your selves as Aaron then you might have beene assistants to Godly Magistrates to deliver the Lords people out of the hands of Tyrannicall Princes but contrariwise you adde afflictions as Pharaohs Taskemasters did even you Mr. Edwards when you say the Lords people are wanton-witted and idle when they desire to have liberty to serve God And thus you sit in the consciences of men judging zeale to be hypocrisie but the time will come when every worke shall be brought to judgement And now drawing neere to an end of this Answer to your tenth Reason which is the last of this your joyned army it is good to looke backe a little and consider what hath beene said You have spoken much for Dependencie but upon whom you doe depend I cannot tell You labour to bring men into doubts by your suppositions but you doe not make any conclusion which is Gods way that men fearing God may expect a blessing when they walke in it but you cry out for Dependencie upon Councels and Synods and Churches I pray you what Dependencie hath the Church of England upon any other Church for I suppose you will say that all the Land is but one Church If you say that you have Dependencie upon the Church of Rome I doe beleeve you for the Bishop of Canterbury hath said so much in his booke where hee confesseth Rome to be as leprous Naaman and England to be the same Naaman cleansed Now that it is the same may easily be proved by divers of your owne Authors But you in your Epistle affirme it is not cleansed in that place where you say that there is yet Altars and Images brasen Serpents abused to Idolatry with divers other things which you would have purged out By this it appeares that it is the same with Rome in the very nature of it though not in every Circumstance and this for any thing can be discerned is the Dependancie for which you pleade even the Dependancie and affinitie betweene Rome and England Therefore you should rather have said That in the belly of this Dependancie doth lurke all liberty and heresie and whatsoever Sathan and the corrupt hearts of men have a pleasure to broach For in that
have but something amongst you wanting yet that were to be desired and therefore you say there is no cause to leave the Kingdome nor for private men to set up true Churches Answer Indeed If your Church Ministers could be proved true which you see is a thing unpossible then it had beene needlesse as you say to leave the Land but neither is your Church nor Ministers true nor can the Ordinances be had amongst you without sinne and that this is the judgement of the Independant men is plaine by your former confession Where you affirme they will not heare of growing into one body or communicating with you before a Reformation neither submit to your Classes or Presbyters as Jure Divino But in the next place you say the setting up of devided Churches would be to the scandall of all the Churches and not the giving of scandall to one brother but to tenne thousands of Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards you overshoote yourselfe in that you make your selfe such an apparant dissembler for you would make men beleeve that you desire to keepe your Church and brethren unspotted and yet you your selfe with your owne tongue have most foulely scandalized the chiefe members of your Church making them so foule a people that they ought not to be communicated with * Further your words imply that so long as a man is not put upon the practise of that which is unlawfull he may beare I tell you againe that your whole manner is unlawfull and therefore all the Lords people as they desire to be blessed and to be found walking in Gods waves have cause to separate from your Church and to practise Gods Ordinances among themselves as well as they who are separated already which you here you call Brownists and the grounds and causes be so great that they may well be justified But you would have conscious men to consider Mr. Robinson concerning circumstantiall corruptions you say he shewes it is not an intolerable evill for evill men be suffered in the Church c. yet you confesse he affirmes it to be an evill Two things are here to be minded First that you would still please your selfe with this that you have a true Church though corrupted which hath beene proved contrary Secondly that you would justifie your Church by the sinnes of others But you know what Mr. Robinson saith That the government instituted by Christ is not onely neglected or violated in the Church of England but the plaine contrarie to it is established by Law But you say now supposing your Reformation it will be otherwise with England then when he writ But you may see it is verie plaine that the crueltie and wickednesse of the Church of England hath increased ever since that time You say there is but something neglected and you would make it the want of some Law to suppresse evill men To which I answer That your Canon Lawes be evill Lawes and your Lawmakers evill men and therefore it could not stand with their principles to make Lawes to suppresse evill men Thirdly you say that they whom you call Independant live in and are members of such Churches and yet they thinke it unlawfull to forsake them I pray you have any of them told you that their Churches be like the Church of England you must make proofe thereof for in this I will not take you upon your bare word Further you say they want some parts of Government and Officers appointed by Christ more matertally than will be in your Church upon a Reformation I answer I have plainely proved to you that Christs Church hath his Government and Officers but your Church hath neither Christs Government nor Officers But what it will be upon the Reformation I cannot tell But you say they must want the Ordinances or else they must have them with instruments without ordination I answer This is untrue as hath beene proved at large in the answers to one of your former Reasons against Independancie But you say you would have them heare with the defects in your Church and waite till God give you more light I answer I know noâ—e that interrupteth you for wee will neither meddle with your Idols nor with your Gods if you would but suffer us to worship our God after the way that you call heresie The next thing you say is that they tell you that something may be omitted for a time and that affirmatives binde not alwayes and that the exercise of Discipline may be forborne for a time when it will not be for edification to the Church but for destruction and therefore you question them for not incorporating themselves into your Church though something were more there to be desired yet you say there will be nothing contrary put upon them nor quite another thing Now that something may be omitted for a time that may plainely appeare for a man that hath brought his gift to the Altar and there remembreth that his brother hath ought against him must leave the offering of his gift and goe and be reconciled to his brother Matth. 5. 23. 24. Now that affirmatives binde not alwayes is plaine for they binde not alwayes in cases of impossibility but in such cases God accepteth the will for the deede Further whereas you say the excellencie of discipline may be forborne for a time when it is not for Edification of the Church but for destruction I say true discipline being rightly used is alwayes for the edification of the Church and never for destruction And whereas you affirme that there is nothing contrary put upon us by you or quite another thing I answer wee know you have none of Gods Ordinances without some other thing to accompany them Fourthly you say that they may safely be members of your Church in the Reformation of you I answer You might well have spared this your vaine repetition till you had obtained a Reformation But the Reason you have heard alleadged for their first going away granted in a letter from Rotterdam that reason still remaines though you say it is ceased and will remaine till the Reformation you have formerly promised But say you that practise they judge themselves tied to is founded upon a false principle namely that the power of government is given by Christ to the body of the Congregation I answer I have told you before in the reply to the second part of this your answer to their third Reason I now tell you againe that you make your Priests the head and body both but Christ hath given the power to the Church which is his body by whose power every Officer and member thereof doth move and doe their severall Offices Fifthly There is say you a medium between persecution and a publike Toleration a middle way say you betweene not suffering them to live in the Land and granting them liberty I Answer This is a very true thing for Pharaoh would have beene willing that the children of Israel