Take heed of both Extremes OR Plain and useful Cautions AGAINST POPERY AND PRESBYTERY By way of DIALOGUE In Two Parts By LVKE DE BEAVLIEV LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun in St. Paul's Church-Yard 1675. TO THE Christian Courteous and Impartial READER I Would fain oblige thee in the beginning of my Book because possibly the rest will not please thee so well Therefore instead of a Preface or a short Advertisement wherewith usually the Reader is put off I give thee an Epistle Dedicatory This I hope will prove acceptable in that it is a new device and also because thou mayst have very cheap the Honour of having had a Book Dedicated to thee But yet besides I assure thee that this Book of itself is worth thy reading for it will make thee see in their natural shape and colours many things which before appeared only under a disguise and if thou art a Lover of Truth as all pretend to be thou canst not but rejoice to see it come out from under the Cloud where before it lay hid And withal thou mayst use it as an Antidote against the Infection of some sugared Poisons which many venture to drink of not knowing their deadly Qualities Therefore I require thee that thou wouldest not fling away the Book as soon as thou findest some things in it against thy former persuasions or thy present liking for oftentimes wholesom Physic is the most unpleasant and if thou readest through and then repentest of thy labour I give it here under my hand that I also will repent of mine but if the Book doth work upon thee the good effect I intended all the Requital I expect is this that as thou art unknown to the Author so thou wouldest not enquire after him because he is unwilling to be known any otherwise than by being Thy Real Friend and Affectionate Well-wisher L. B. P. THE PREFACE MAny Learned Books have been written against the Errors of the Church of Rome by several worthy Champions of the Church of England but usually they read them most that have least need of them while in the mean time they that have but little of knowledge are left unarmed against the Crafts and Subtilties of the Propagators of the Roman Faith I know there is an in-bred Aversion to Popery in the major part of our People but Popery is now a word of a very dubious signification and means rather what every one dislikes than what is so indeed and it is to be seen in the second part of this Book that they that exclaim'd most against what they pleased to call Popery ran themselves into the worst of Popish Errors However 't is not a brutish Hatred or a blind Zeal against unknown Errors can secure us from them A man may easily embrace his mortal Enemy if he knows him not or if he meets him under a disguise Jesuites are Travesty among us and so is their Doctrine they put a strange garb as well upon their Opinions as upon their Persons and I am confident they win more Proselytes by mis-representing the Popish Religion than by proving it to be true Therefore that they might no longer be imposed upon that have not the leisure or the capacity of knowing what the Papists do really believe contrary to that sound and orthodox Doctrine which is profest in the Church of England I have here set down their real Opinions taken out of their most approved Doctors and the Council of Trent itself having transcrib'd their very words without any the least alteration and then Englisht them as faithfully as their sense did require And afterwards I have added some of those places of Scripture which I thought most express against those Errors which our Church hath rejected as being contrary to Gods Word and the Faith of the Primitive Church Now if any man likes those Doctrines of the Church of Rome as they are really in themselves and as they stand in opposition to the Word of God let him embrace them if it so please him but let none flatter himself or be made to believe by others that the Popish Tenets I have mentioned are not so bad as I represent them for I have used the very Words and Expressions of their own Authors which certainly could not be made either better or worse by being transcrib'd by me Perhaps I shall be censur'd for having writ my Book Dialogue-wise and not well manag'd the Intrigue but if they that find fault with this like the matter let them not mind the form if not I had as lieve they should dislike both as but one onely My design was not to make a Dramatic Piece but to make my Actors speak truth This way of writing is easie to the meanest capacities and I am minded to imitate at least in the method that excellent Dialogue called the F.D. However if I can profit those that shall read me I little care whether I please them or not And now if it may be lawful for a Controvertist to moralize a little give me leave to tell thee Dear Reader that what I have written is not to engage thee into Disputes and Religious Quarrels I had rather thou shouldest read The whole Duty of Man and the excellent Discourse which that pious Author hath written against Disputes in his Decay of Christian Piety than this Book of mine By discovering the foul stains of those Religions that make shew of a fair and specious outside my design is not to teach thee how to rail at them or wrangle with their followers But to make thee love and obey that holy Religion which is taught in the Church of England and which promiseth rewards to her followers not for hating those that are of different Persuasions but for obeying the Precepts of Christ If thou art an ill liver no matter what Religion thou art of thy recompence shall be according to thy Works if not thy Creed and a Good Life will do thy soul more good than much Knowledge and Activity in what concerns the Differences among Christians in points of Religion And if thou dost ask me why therefore I should meddle with them and not be wholly employed in the performance of good Works I answer somewhat like as Aphraates did Valens when he came into Antioch to oppose himself to the then prevailing Error of Arius and the Emperor askt him why he had left his Religious Retirement to come into the City Niceph. l. 11. c. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. When the flock of Christ is in danger of being seduced it behoves me also to do my utmost endeavour for its Preservation And when my heavenly Fathers house is set on fire I will by all means endeavour to quench it and fling water upon it though it were but one drop Imprimatur Tho. Tomkyns Ex Aed Lambethanis Decemb. 13. 1675. Popery Manifested AND THE Papist Incognito made known By way of DIALOGUE between a Papist Priest a Protestant Gentleman and a
you said that must not be confounded And first That not only your Ministers but even your People also are not subject to the Laws of the Civil Magistrate except they approve of them which is as much as not at all will too manifestly appear by those famous or rather infamous Books of Rutherford and Prynne The falshood of M. Prynns Truths Triumph 1645. p. 30. p. 25. Lex Rex and The Sovereignty of Parliament Moreover we have it in plain terms That the general Assembly is subordinate to no Civil Judicature whatsoever in a Book called The readiness of the Scots advance into England And Mr. Dury told the Parliament in a Sermon Settle but the Judicatories of particular Congregations and let the Thrones of the whole House of David be erected and you shall find that the fruit of righteousness c. Isai 32.17 as much as to say Inthronize a Pope in every Parish and all will be well But secondly you are so far from being subject to the Laws of Princes that you will have them to be subject to yours This was one of the Propositions presented to the Assembly at Edinburgh Art 8. 1647. None that is within the Church ought to be without the reach of the Church Laws and excepted from Ecclesiastical censures but Discipline is to be exercised on all the members of the Church without respect or consideration of those adhering qualities which use to commend a man to other men All the Power the Pope claims over secular Princes is included in this one Article When once the Kirk hath decreed that any thing is Antichristian and must down or that some new device is according to the Pattern in the Mount and therefore must be establisht if the Magistrate dares to oppose it then cries the petty Pope Help ye the Lord against the Mighty as S. Marshall in a Sermon S. Marshal 1641. Curse ye Meroz for not helping the Lord against the Mighty Some Politicians saith he pag. 2. look which side shall prevail and stand Neuter but as Gideon said to the men of Succoth when they refused to give bread to the people Judg. 8.7 then will I tear your flesh with the thorns of the wilderness so I say to such if the Lord prevail he will do them Is it so indeed that they are cursed that help not the Lord against the Mighty Then Brethren as you desire to be freed from this curse and to obtain a blessing be exhorted to put forth your hand now to the help of the Lord. I pray look on me as one that comes among you this day to beat a Drum in your ears to see who will come out to follow the Lamb. Here was a Press-Master for the Synod Now here what Th. Tho. Good 1645. Goodwin said to the Parliament how that the Saints i. e. the Assembly and their Adherents must not be crost in their humour under pain of utter ruine after a long canting to shew that the greatest and highest Interest of Kings and Kingdoms on which their welfare or their ruine depends was the dealing well or ill with the Saints he gives these reasons for it 1. Their nearness and dearness to God 2. p. 40. The interest of the Saints in God the Governour and the priviledges which they themselves have vouchsafed them by God in ruling and governing this World p 42. and Providences of God therein And 3. the interest of Jesus Christ himself whose design and practise is and hath been to break all Kingdoms that do oppose him and oppress his Saints Here 's the Dickins and all I think for Papal Power But you must understand that all this was proved out of his Text Psal 105.14 He suffered no man to do them wrong yea he reproved Kings for their sakes Now Sir that your most Godly Party would make a pretty good title to the Goods of the wicked if they were in power Th. Palmer endeavour'd to clear when in the 15 and 16 pag. of his Sermon he made it his business to prove that wicked men who are out of Christ i. e. out of their favour have no proper right to the Creatures neither to the Sacraments and Ordinances nor to those Creatures that sustain life And then saith he pag. 17. when the Riches and Honours and Liberty given to the Saints and Gospel-times so long promised shall come then the wicked miseries of the wicked begin then shall their time of sorrow and sadness come in whereby he intimates that should once the Saints come to reign the Wicked would go near to be dealt with as Usurpers of what they possess as indeed many of them were when the Saints had power to plunder and sequester As for your absolving from Oaths I had rather charitably believe that you can do that too than judge you guilty of perjury for either of the two must be because many of your Ministers acted contrary to what they had sworn when they receiv'd Ordination or Institution from the Bishop that you won't deny And again they acted contrary to their Oath of Allegiance and made their people do so too and take an Oath contradictory to that your holy Covenant for though you pretended that it was to make the King happy and glorious yet 't was against your Allegiance being it was against his will and just Authority and besides that goodly pretence it self was an affronting his Majesty for you would make him to destroy the Church which by his Oath at least he was bound to preserve and maintain and you would have wrested his Regal Power out of his hand and left him only his Scepter to countenance you This is called Protestatio contraria facto when a man cuts anothers purse and swears that he doth him no wrong but whether you cut or untied the knot whereby you were bound to act otherwise than you did I leave it to your choice Pr. By and by I shall shew that your Citations signifie nothing but supposing they did yet that cannot prove what you intend them for because the Quarrel betwixt the King and the Parliament and the War that ensued thereon was upon a Civil account and if the people were in the wrong it was the Lawyers that mis-led them and not we But how many Holy Wars hath the Pope raised against Kings and Emperours meerly to establish or maintain that supreme Authority he claims over them This alone doth overthrow all you have said of your Papal Power Pa. Nay if you must have more proofs I 'll warrant you I can give you enough and therefore to confirm what I have said of your claiming a Pope-like Power I shall make it appear that it was you mis-led the people and made them rebel and that your War was a Holy War upon the account of Religion Mr. Leech tells his Auditors in a Sermon pag. Jer. Leech 1644. 22. Who is on my side let him cast down Jezabel of Rome down with her Idolatries and
use for the Lord Mr. Tesdale in the same manner P. 15. Honourable Patriots Christ is gone forth with his triumphing Army conquering and to conquer and if you want Arms or Money or Horse for their accommodation God is the great Landlord of Heaven and Earth Art thou then Gods Tenant and dost thou owe him Knight-service and Plough-service and doth he want thy Horse and shall he not have it c. Yea verily it was so meritorious a thing to advance the interest of the holy Covenanteers that that was call'd to help the Lord and people were to do the utmost for it and then an hundred-fold here and eternal life besides was the least as they could have for a recompence Mr. Bond after a long Exhortation to pull down Antichrist Joh. Bond 1644. p. 60. and to do for the Lord in the close of all saith I will recommend unto you these two especial promises Mat. 19.29 Every one that hath forsaken Houses or Brethren c. and Mar. 8.35 Whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the Gospels the same shall find it O that they were written over the doors of the Houses of Parliament If these places do deceive an active Believer at last then let it be written upon my Grave Here lieth that Minister that was mistaken in his God and Gospel Was not the acting for the Cause highly meritorious when the greatest of rewards were to be got by it Wherein then lieth the difference Only in this That among you 't is rebelling against the King and the Church but with us 't is good works only that merit Pr. Well but them good works consist for the most part in being kind to the Fryars those good souls who have vowed forsooth to follow the counsels of perfection poverty chastity and blind obedience and yet preach themselves more than Jesus Christ and in begging about make people believe that the best service they can do to God is to do them good whereas you see by your own Citations that what our Ministers did was out of Zeal for Gods Cause to advance his Honour and not their own Profit Pa. Yea that was a piece of deceit and craftiness whereby they out did the Fryars themselves to call their own Gods interest to give specious names to their own devices as if God and Religion had been much concern'd in the establishing of them and to make the world believe that to pull down the Church was to pull down Antichrist and to set them up was to set up Christ in his Throne yet terminis terminatibus they would speak it out too that they and their followers were to be used kindly and that it was the duty and interest of the whole Nation to do good to the Saints and to make as much of them as they could I confess you never oblig'd your selves to obey the Evangelick counsels but you went as near to it as any bad Copy can resemble a good Original for you vow'd to spend your Lives and Estates upon the work in hand that was poverty to the height You vow'd to reform the Church according to the pattern of the best reformed Churches to extirpate Superstition and Heresie and to preserve the Rights and Priviledges of the Parliament and the Liberties of the Kingdoms All which I am sure was blind obedience for not one of an hundred as took the Covenant understood what these things meant and were therefore to follow you blindfold And if in stead of continency you 'll give me leave to put obstinacy we have found the three Monachal vows in the Covenant for you swore never to suffer your selves directly or indirectly by whatsoever combination perswasion or terrour to be divided or withdrawn from your blessed Vnion or Conjunction as you call'd it but zealously and constantly to continue therein all the days of your lives against all opposition whatsoever And accordingly that renowned Champion of yours who died a Martyr for the Covenant said on the Scaffold Mr. Loves Case 1651 p. 21 I did oppose in my place and calling the Forces of the late King and were be alive again and should I live longer the Cause being as then it was I should oppose him longer The good man would rather venture Damnation than break the Covenant by repenting of his Rebellion against his Sovereign so binding was that Holy League which oblig'd him to be thus ostinate But perhaps you won't believe what I have said that you made the people believe it was a most meritorious thing to be kind to you and that you preacht your selves as much as ever the Fryars did if not at least believe these precious men Mr. Dury having observ'd out of his Text Isai 52.11 that God hath vessels belonging to him tells the House of Commons Dury p. 14 God hath intrusted some with those his Vessels and charged them with the care of them to look to them to bear them up c. and then having extol'd the Covenant up to the Skies he saith pag. 24. This is a new thing in the Christian Church there is a special engagement lying upon us all more than upon other men to bear every one our own vessels to bear the vessels of each other and to bear jointly the Church and Cause of God in our hearts hands and shoulders In all the World there is not a Magistracy so eminently entrusted with such a charge over a people so nearly united unto God as you and the Parliament of Scotland are Mr. Burroughs likewise told the Parliament Jer. Burr 1645. p. 8. It hath been the honour of some of you to receive and countenance godly Ministers who suffered under the Tyranny of Prelates this Christ hath owed you for and we hope it shall be remembred for good to you and yours let not your hearts be changed towards these men And pag. 45. My Lords you are advanced to high power and honour in a Kingdom where Christ hath as many Saints I had almost said as in the World besides he expects you should use them kindly Th. Good 1645. p. 5. and 6. And Mr. Goodwin to the House of Commons observes out of his Text Psal 105.14 Here is the nearness and dearness of the Saints to God they are dearer to him than Kings and States simply considered and here is the danger of Kings and States to deal with his Saints otherwise than well And then towards the latter end pag. 52. and 53. It is not the having Saints and multitudes of Saints but the using them kindly that is the interest of a Nation The Saints of England are the interest of England look to and keep this your interest namely maintain and preserve the Saints among you and make provisions for them as you would preserve this Kingdom And then he repeats it again p. 54. The Saints of England are the interest of England write this upon your walls and have it in your eyes in all your Consultations and