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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91654	A reply of two of the brethren to A.S. wherein you have observations on his considerations, annotations, &c. Upon the apologeticall narration. With a plea for libertie of conscience for the apologists church way; against the cavils of the said A. S. formerly called M. S. to A. S. Humbly submitted to the judgements of all rationall, and moderate men in the world. With a short survey of W. R. his Grave confutation of the separation, and some modest, and innocent touches on the letter from Zeland, and Mr. Parker's from New-England.	Parker, Thomas, 1595-1677.; Steuart, Adam.	1644 (1644)	Wing R1048B; Thomason E54_18; ESTC R2612	108,370	124

pride as that the patient Philosopher could justly reply yea saith he Thou dancest on my pride with thy greater pride How much of this is A. S. his I say not but sure it was the unseasonablest if not the most unsavoury book to multitudes of spirituall palates as ever wise man put forth Yet Iames Cranford is quoted by the Printer in the page before the Title as approving it and the book with a licentious approbation in these words These judicious Observations and Annotations c. as being at this time necessarie and seasonable for the vindication of all Protestant Churches defending the authority of Parliaments and Synods and prevention of division amongst our selves though I reverence the persons of the Apologists yet I approve to be impressed Mr. Cranford if the Printer hath dealt faithfully with you let me intreat you and the Lord help you to see your selfe ask your conscience ask your reason ask the book it selfe whether there be one true clause in all that you have said Are these Observations c. of A. S. judicious that are extra-judiciall and prejudiciall to the publick peace and order and ordinance for dispute prejudging and adjudging them who joyntly with the grave Assembly A. S. acknowledgeth the Arbitrator in the matters in question Are they at this time necessarie when the grave Commissioners of Scotland had with farre more prudence and solidity then A. S. said by way of reply so much to the Apologie Nemine reclamante none replying till A. S. was abroad Is there any need to bring a great printing Presse to squeese to death a poore worme troden on before Or to bring many leavers to break an egge that makes small resistance The truth is A. S. his Observations are like a man with a Pole-axe knocking a man on the head to kill a flie lighting on his beard For though he saith He humbly submitteth to the Protestant Churches yet hee layes about him as if hee would knock them all down unto a submission to A.S. whosoever they be that will not stoop to his book For though he thinkes that all Protestant and Christian Churches are for him rather then for the five Ministers as he intimates in the beginning of his Epistle and therefore in all likelihood professeth a submission to them yet he will find many Churches in London he would wonder if we should name how many that will not submit to his book and yet come to the publick Ordinance doe not separate but are most willing to submit to the truth regularly discussed cleared and brought down to them Yet still James Cranford stands fixed in the licence page in black and not blush for asserting that A. S. his Observations c. are judicious and necessarie when as they are neither unlesse preposterousnesse abuse of good men and the disturbance of the people be judicious and necessarie For though the ensuing answer will prove them evill yet they will never be proved necessarie evils They are not so much as civilly necessary either necessitate praecepti as commanded by Parliament or Assembly or necessitate medii as usefull to compose but indispose the minds of men to embrace things prejudiced with the violence of private spirits Men will not be so easily whipt and compelled by one inferiour Again are the Observations seasonable which doe but interstrepere make a noyse whilst the Divines are disputing drawing the people together in heaps there taking up their parts to defend one against another and pre-ingage themselves before they come to heare what the Assembly will say For such a book cannot come forth but it makes a thousand dispute in a week every one then contending for his owne when it is so irregularly and illegally taken from him Are they for the vindication of all Protestant Churches when as in condemning the Apology they condemne many very many Churches in England many in Holland generally all in New-England notwithstanding some private Letters and Manuscripts sent over to which we shall answer afterwards Are they for the defence of the authoritie of Parliament in opposition to the Apology Doth the Apology touch one haire of the honourable heads of the Parliament Are not the five Ministers chidden some where in print R. C. for saying They allow more to the civill Magistrate then they thinke others principles can Doth not A. S. snib them t●o for going as he thinkes in their Apology to the civill Magistrate Pag. 4. Doth not A. S. in his Booke give a negative vote against the civill Magistrates directive power in matters of Religion Pag. 5. Let me say what I thinke seeng I think no harme viz. If the resolutions of the Divines be not digested by the reason and graces of the Houses of Parliament and so made as their owne sense for ought I know they will never be turned into a Statute If the Parliament have no directive power in matters of Religion or Ecclesiasticall under any notion then A. S. will condemn them for voting down the new Canons and prescribing the Oath or Covenant Are these Observations for the defence of the authoritie of Synods in opposition to the Apologie What Synods Scripture-Synods Where doth the Apologie whimper against them or doe you mean Classicall ones If so that 's the question And so you proclaim a defence of that which yet hath no existence The question is not resolved Lastly are these Observations for prevention of sad division amongst our selves Well Mr. Cranford you have by this endeavoured to set Divines together by the eares More Ecclesiastico your licentiating hath inabled men to give the second blow upon which the Common Law layeth the breach of the peace And notwithstanding you licence these Annotations yet you say you reverence the persons of the Apologists A pinne for such complements Love me and love the truth Let us measure your respects to them whilst the advantage of the higher ground whereon it stands be removed Away with your dare verba your froathy words This is the truth so much you respect them as A. S. respects them And so much have you spoken judiciously truly and seasonably as A.S. hath spoken and no more If he be cast you will be condemned Stand by Mr Cranford and heare A. S. tryed and in him your selfe THE EPISTLE A. S. To the right reverend Divines the Authors of the Apologetical Narration M. S. The Authors of the Apologeticall Narration desire more of your right though they have lesse of your reverence Had I written a booke with so much unreverence I would either have blotted out my title Right Reverend or else I should never have put in that Episcopall stile Most Reverend and Right Reverend seeing the Bishops are going For to stroke in the title and to strike in the book is but flattery if not grosse dissimulation Or as to say Art thou in health my brother and in the meane while to strike under the fift rib A. S. The high esteeme I have ever

of a Booke thus A touch on W. R. his booke called The grave Confutation c. A most grave and modest Confutation of the errors of the sect commonly called as W. R. sayth Brownists or Seperatists so his skill writes it for Separatists agreed upon long since by the joynt consent of sundry godly and learned Ministers of this Kingdome then standing out and suffering in the cause of Inconformitie and now published in a time of neede * VVhat now all or the greatest part of them come to our publik meetings and the Apol. disclaims Separation and Brownisme unlesse you would drive them to corners again c. against that pernitious evill Published by W. R. As if their sufferings were a seale of the just length of reformation how farre we must go and no further When as the most of them stood only upon the negative part What they would not have but onely a few declared positively of which some for a Congregationall presbytery or Church-way be it or be it not a pernitious evill as W. R. calls it God forbid that if wee have suffered for Christ in the behalfe of any piece of truth that therefore we should pride up our selves as having done so much or stint our selves from proceeding further in knowledge or affright our selves from suffering more if more truths bee to be contended for as the Apostle speakes or least of all through the sides of Brownisme or Separation to would the truth Saints of Jesus Christ just in the nick of such reproachings cast upon them that disclaime in words and practise all pernicious Brownisme c. It cannot bee forgotten that the choicest doctrines held in England have beene called pernitious heresie And therefore it is an high peremptorinesse in a generall title to call all those things pernitious evils some of which are truths We have and doe disclaim Separation and Brownisme properly so called But if the Pope or the Devill * Mar. 1.24 confesse Christ we will not therefore call that truth a pernitious evill I suppose all that W. R. book sets forth in heads and Chapters as to be confuted are some of those things hee means are pernitious evills As 1. That pag. 8. Many Parish-Churches are not rightly gathered 2. That p. 11. That they Communicate in a false and idolatrous worship as stinted prayers Homilies Catechismes 3. That p. 17. they want that Discipline and order which Christ in his Testament hath appointed for the gouernement of his Church 4. That p. 50. That it is objected against them that the ignorant and prophane multitude are admitted to all priviledges of the C●urches Are these we give but a tast pernitious evills Then you condemne Smeclymnuus for writing the Parliament and Assembly for removing and about to remove these exceptions And most presbyterian Ministers in London for forbearing togive Communious to such multitudes Mr. Calamy said that an imposed Litu●gie was idolatry And our worthy brethren of Scorland justly stood up against these enormi●ies No wonder therefore if W. R. booke abound with weakenesses and impertinencies in stead of Confutation of such things as these For I patronage not any false or unadvised speeches of Barrow or c. there used 3. A. S. Saying That the Apologists differ from the most reformed Churches in the world Some of which hee knowes are in Holland more in England most in new-New-England all publike Churches if hee speakes not falsly or ignorantly yet begging the Question whether the Churches named or the Classicall Presbyterian are most reformed To close our answer to this tell us no more of your multitud●s the Lord keepe us all from the broad way that leadeth to destruction though many there be therein One Phinees one Elijah left alone in the eye of the world two against thousands viz. Caleb and Josuah in the truth are more to be honored then swarmes of swarvers I judge none The time is at hand that ten men shall take hold of one Jew * Zech. 8.23 and so on one true christian Godly men may be hunted out of a Kingdom not of the truth meane while such a Kingdom may be without them but neere the more without judgments England was never quiet but worse worse since it hunted away almost a little Nation of Saints to New-England though W. R. joyning issue with A. S. will follow them with a blotting pen in print even to that Kingdome too Yea and take in his way many Churches in old England and some that are and lately were in Holland and then have at New-England none comes amisse that have gone an inch in reformation beyond W. R. his Non-Conformitie Like him who would strike all that were next him who e're they were that injured him And all this worke he cuts out for himselfe in his booke he calls a Narration of some Church courses in new-New-England ☜ O that all Readers that will not be wilfully blind would by the way observe how A. S. condemnes the Apologists as guiltie of dissenting from the Churches in New-England And W. R. condemnes them for agreeing with the Churches of New-England So that A. S. and W. R. doe not agree betweene themselves But you shall have an Answer to that booke of W. R. in a distinct treatise by it selfe ere long God permitting Meane while we goe forward with A. S. A. S. I am perswaded in my conscience that your opinion of Independency c. if it were admitted pardon my expression till I be better instructed could not but prove the roote of all sorts of Schisme and Heresie and consequently the utter overthrow of Christs universall militant Church M. S. If you speake cordially as supposing indeede that you may be better instructed it had beene best for you to have stayd for the Assemblies determination or to have conferred with some of them you write against before you had written and printed that desperate speech lest the inke seeme letters of blood to you at your dying pillow I warrant you if what one or many say onely would make an argument a multitude would say that a coactive classicall Presbyterie would be the root of couched Prelacy and Ecclesiasticall tyrannie But I will not be one of them to say so Probatum est in New-England that which you call Independency hath not procured but cured or purged out heresies schismes formalitie prophaneness more then some other Kingdoms that so hate and hit at mis-called Independeney A. S. You sue for a Toleration and consequently for a Separation M. S. So then where Papists are tolerated there they are Separatists too It 's but the Noun of multitude between but that the Independents in England might tolerate and the Presbyterians might be tolerated would they then be Separatists Who desires separation but rather union in the truth If any hold the truth and stumble though of weakness at some smaller matters as you count them it is your duty to suffer them and to bear with the weak

had of your persons c. except onely in your particular opinions wherein the dissent from al Protestant yea all Christian Churches in the world M. S. Now let the Protestant Churches to whom you say you submit judge whether in these words there be not a notorious untruth For wherein doe the five Ministers and their Churches differ from many Churches in England diverse in Holland and generally all within the Patent of New-England if you account these places Protestant It may be you will object Mr. Parkers Letter and some Manuscripts from New-England and the Letter from Zeland To Mr. Parker his Letter we neede say little the Letter will answer for us though Mr. Parker little thought when he wrote it to finde an A. S. in England or that his brother Bayly would have printed his Letter seemingly to anticipate the disputation of the Assembly as if hee meant to beg the question though but with shewes and shadowes 1. Mr. Parker saith not one word for a Classicall Presbyterie the maine difference in hand but for a Congregationall that he would have in some things more managed by the Presbyteries of every Congregation without putting every thing to the vote of the people of the Congregation because some confusion hath followed upon it Doth in necessaries abuse take away the use There was confusion in the Church of Corinth Or is there any mention of this in the Apologie that all businesses of the Church must be put to the vote of the Congregation 2. That in that thing only there hath been an arguing on both sides M. Parker Mr. Noyse only are mentioned in the letter to be on the one side all the other Churches on the other against Mr. Parker and Mr. Noyse And 3ly Mr. Parker doth not say he won the day but as hee answered their Arguments as he saith so he confesseth they answered his Arguments and the thing is left to consideration Yea a godly man of New-England told me that the Churches of New-England did conceive that Mr. Parker had received full satisfaction from them in that point How ever it were all amounts but to a private letter subscribed by one man yet Imprimatur saith I. C. as if much to the purpose But tooke but a little afterward to our answer to a Letter from Zeland and you shall find the judgement of New-England in Letters newly come over To any private copies or Manuscripts from New-England one Mr. Rutherf●●d hath answered as too much jumping with the Apologie and opposite to Classicall Presbytery Another if it had come forth would have beene keener against A. S. then the Apologie is So that if the Apologie doe differ from that it 's onely because the Apologie more agrees with the reformed Churches of this Island And for the third it hath nothing at all for Classicall Presbyterie but some things touching the ordering of Congregationall Presbyteries and all these are but private intelligencers and mutuall advisers not determination or natio●all No more then I suppose Mr. Cranford or A. S. will account the strange Queries on the Apologie and Scotch Commissioners Reply to bee the sense of New-England though made by one of that Countrey As for the letter of Zeland I cannot tell how to speak all the truth not offend some whom by my will I would not in the least displease Sure this will not offend to tell A. S. that in Holland if not in Zeland are some Churches that are fully with the five Ministers unto which some of them doe relate And to speake these things to the Letter it selfe being matters of fact I hope cannot justly offend 1. That that Letter came admirably punctuall upon the very nick after the first reply to the Apologie was out 2. That a Scottish Knight as it was informed nine or ten dayes before it was known abroad that the letter was to come said What if ye receive a Letter from Zeland disliking the Apologie or to that effect 3. That there is a Scottish Church of which one Spang is a very busie agent at Trevere hard by Middleborough whence the letter came 4. That there are in it many high passages seeming to some so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy that it justifies that of the Apology saying That the five Ministers c. give more to the Civil Magistrates then the principles of some Presbyterians do The said letter giving so too little to the Magistracy that the State of England I think cannot approve it here among us Verbum sapientisat est More may be thought upon evident grounds but not spoken here 5. Most happily by almost a miraculary providence in this nick of time came two letters from New-England to countermand Mr. Parkers Letter thence and the other from Zeland The first from Mr. Winthorp Governor of New England To his reverend and very good brother Mr. Hugh Peters Minister of the Gospel these deliver in London Our late Assembly of about fourty Elders met wherein the way of our Churches was approved and the Presbytery disallowed Winthorp Governor Decemb. 10. 1643. The second from another of new-New-England to another Minister in old-Old-England about the same time wherein we have these passages We have had saith he a Synod lately in our Colledge wherein sundry things were agreed on gravely as That the votes of the people are needfull in all admissions and excommunications at least in way of consent all yeelding to act with their consent 2. That those that are fit matter for a Church though they are not alwayes able to make large and particular relations of the work and doctrine of faith yet must not live in the commission of any known sin or the neglect of any known duty 3. That consociation of Churches in way of more generall meetings yearly and more private monethly or quarterly as Consultative Synods are very comfortable and necessary for the peace and good of the Churches 4. It was generally desired that the exercitium of the Churches power might onely be in the Eldership in each particular Church unlesse their sinnes be apparent in their worke 5. That Parishes Churches in old England could not be right without a renewed Covenant at least and the refusers excluded And were not New-England so farre the Churches of New-England would soon send a third punctually to approve the Apologie unless it bee for their merer compliance with them who notwithstanding have written against them We have been the longer in answer to this clause because wee finde A. S. to bee but the Text of other mens Commentary-discourses who say That the five Ministers will oppose all the visible Christian Churches in the world If they did it were not such a wonder as for one Wickliff in one age one Husse in another and Luther in a third to oppose all the world The truth is all Churches generally partly by tyranny and partly by Security are grown so corrupt that to apologize for a through reformation seemes to reprove all

Consideration saith That the five Ministers do blame all Protestant Churches as not having the power of godliness and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians advanced and held forth among them as among you which is commonly thought to be particularly intended against the Scots M. S. Sure it is no otherwise commonly thought to be particularly intended against the Scots and generally to blame all Protestant Churches then in or by your common sense deriving species vain seemings to your phantasie from your outward senses an evill eye ill affected For the Apologie calls our dear brethren the Scots the more reformed Churches And for the words all and among you whereby you would present them setting themselves as an opposite member of distinction to all Protestant Churches and blaming them all as undistinguished from carnall and formall Christians in comparison of them and their five Churches the words all and you are forged and foysted in by your self and so must go for very falshoods charged upon them Apol. p. 4. The words of the Apologie are 1. That they and many others had but observed touching the non-advance of the power of godliness c. among some what themselves had generally acknowledged The five Ministers do not charge it but repeat it as confessed by themselves 2. It is not said it was confessed and they observed there was no power of godliness but is was not advanced 3. Nor is it said it was not advanced but not advanced as in this our Island This Island being a common phrase yea and your phrase too in the title of your Book to signifie Scotland and England both And then where is that particular intendment against Scotland or the five Ministers laying their Churches in the ballance against other Churches Fourthly and lastly they speake but indefinitely in a contingent matter and therefore can bee construed but of some particulars and therefore did not ayme at all You know how highly they esteeme of New-England and therefore that is not excluded from the advance of the power of go●linesse as in this Island of great Britaine English and Scots are included However as no man that is a knowing man either by hearsay or travell over the next Sea will accuse Scotland as most carnall and formall it were well for the world if in that c. others had not farre exceeded them so none of us except Pharisees will excuse our Nations of remisnesse in advancing the power of godlinesse in apparent view above carnalitie and formalitie You see by our answer to the Apologie that not that Apologie but your will caused you to speake that which is not by wise men once to bee mentioned at this time as if the Apologists intended to say any the least thing to grieve our brethren the Scots A. S. his seventh Consideration for the sixth is non-sense unlesse we put the interrogatorie point at Anabaptists and so A. S. to take unto him and them hee ranks himselfe with all calling them us I say to take to him and them the Brownists and Anabaptists to be of his partie Reader view his sixth Consideration whether you can make sense of it I cannot nor any thing of consequence therefore answer not unto it his seventh Consideration I say interrogates thus Many are desirous to know whether this Apologeticall Narration published by you five alone be in the name of your five alone or of all those also or a part of those whom ye pretend to hold your tenets if in the name of you five onely whether ye five can arrogate a power unto you selves to maintaine these tenets as the constant opinion of all your Churches having no generall confession of their faith thereabouts If in the name of all the rest we desire you would shew your Commission from all your Churches c. M. S. Good Reader doe but turne about these interrogatories and put them to A. S. and put A. S. in stead of the five Ministers and you may kill Goliah with his owne sword if five Ministers have arrogated in the Apol. one A. S. much more in his Reply If A. S. doth not like the conversion we answer positively 1. It 's no arrogating for any Christian upon just occasion to make his confession of faith 2. The confession of faith in doctrine that is in all the best reformed Churches is theirs For one touching pure Discipline it was not found in Scotland whiles the tyrannie of the Bishops prevailed Whiles things are in fieri a wise man will not expect them in facto esse Faith may bee when confession dares not appeare A. S. is angry with that confession of faith in the Apologie and hath opened the mouthes of many others as we heare ready to barke too at it they doe but stay their turnes why then doth he call for more confession 3. The godly learned Fathers Tertullian Justin Martyr c. produced no authority from men to Apologize for the truth the Scripture they Apologized for bore them out 4. The Parliament allow the five Ministers more viz. to shew their reasons therefore the lesse to shew their opinion 5. A thousand and a thousand good Christians were glad to heare how the five Ministers dissented from the rigid Separation and closed with the best reformed Churches the sole businesse of the Apologie in effect and thought that no good Protestants would have beene sorry for them A. S. His eight Consid interrogates the five Ministers thus Whether yee desire a toleration for you five alone in your marke your Religion for all the rest Item if a toleration in publick in erecting of Churches apart or to live quietly without troubling of the State As for the last appearingly ye may have it unsought But for the rest the Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God M. S. An Apologie for the Apologists Church-way Toleration properly so called is saith learned Capel of things unlawfull His words are The Law I know permitted usury to the Jewes to the stranger what of that It followes the rather yet it is of it selfe a sinne because permission is of sinnes not of duties Cap. Tempt of Vsury We are not friend A.S. come to that yet To yeeld the one or beg the other Wee challenge it as your duty that are Protestants to allow us our liberty that are Protestants and hold with you in Doctrine and Discipline also in substance the difference being an accident 1. The quantitie you would have it extended to Colloquies provinciall Classes c. over every Church which appeares not in Scripture either name or thing Wee would have it bounded within every particular Church made up to competent hundreds with a sufficiencie of Church Officers for parts and number And 2. Necessity of constraint for in appeales you would cite and constraine men to appeare before the said Colloquies Classes c. For which there is not the least in the Scriptures we would