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england_n	bishop_n	great_a	lord_n	4,276	5	3.7012	3	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A72527	The relection of a conference touching the reall presence. Or a bachelours censure of a masters apologie for Doctour Featlie. bachelours censure of a masters apologie for Doctour Featlie. / By L.I. B. of Art, of Oxford.	Lechmere, John.; Lechmere, Edmund, d. 1640? Conference mentioned by Doctour Featly in the end of his Sacrilege.	1635 (1635)	STC 15351.3; ESTC S108377	255,450	637

it in manie places and so horrid were the inside indeed turned outward as would make many pale to looke vpon them Apologist And now Sir S. E. not to dallie with you any longer hetherto true you did nothing els I am to let the world know a merire world belike where Mirth is generall cryer that our Doctour is not that flincher nor Master Kneuet that turnecoate as you storie them Censure Proiicit ampullas But it is to late now for Featlie is such a flincher as he is storied The storie of his tergiuersation is true Lions the b. Arist Hist Animal l. 9. c. 44. Philosopher saith sometimes do runne away And M. Kneuet thereupon did turne also But to giue loosers leaue to speake what euidence do you preten● Apologist For the liklihood of your Lords challinging Doctor Featlie in England the Reader may reflect on my answ●r to your 23. page Censure That he was challenged was not told you That Featlie refused to meete him in Conference twice in England once before a L. another time before two B. is true The conferences were vndertaken at the request of others who remember the circumstances well enough so doth your Doctours owne Conscience too But wee must returne forsooth to the beginning of your booke for another story where we may looke for euidence to the contrarie as lōg as your Doctor was lookt for by Master Kneuet when he was to defend his Cause and not find it Where is it in your booke in the sixt page well I am at the leafe speake on Waferer In England there were two Proclamations out against his Lordship to attach him and is it liklie that a man lurking to saue his life would a great while before this happened many yeers c. It was before M. D. Smith was Bishop in the time of his Predecessor my Lord VVilliā of Chalcedon before send two challenges one lie as bigg as two to my Lord of Canturburies Chaplaines in his howse Censure Is this all so then we haue heard the first part of the proclamation On cryer to the secōd thing which you were to signifie to the world yet staie Now I am come to the former place whence I went I finde another peece appertaining to this half Apologist Where you accuse him for declining a second conflict in Paris I answer that is well donne that in Paris he could not meete his Lordship why so he was sent vnto and as soone as he was found was called vpon from my Lord. see the Relation pag. 119. seq because his honour had so contriued the matter that he left the towne before D. Featlie had leaue from the Ambassadour whose Chaplaine he was to encounter him Censure How Not leaue from the Ambassadour in Fraunce This excuse is to sillie to acquit your Champion from cowardize Not leaue Belike the Ambassadour knew how he had disgraced himself before when he brought his arguments in a paper Master Porie for pittie helpt him out Could he get leaue in England of his Lord of Canterbury to dispute so many times and afterwards to print his Disputations of Religion not get leaue in Fraunce of an Ambassadour Fie Fie Waferer the more you stirre the worse it is Some other would haue feigned a better tale to saue his honour Apologist That our Doctour did neither distrust his cause nor himself in respect of him is apparent that 's good now or neuer a demonstration or some cleere argument for the game is at a dead lift and your Doctours credit hangs inter sacrum saxumque because after this Conference with D. Smith he had a Disputation at Paris with D. Bagshawe alac this is no demonstration a man of greater note did Featlie tell you so and antiquitie then his Lordship well your inference and therefore your slanders and detractions heere is a bitter storme are groundles and improbable Censure And therefore improbable Is this all vix vrceus I lookt by your braue vndertaking for a conuiction by cleere euidēce this neither brings in the thing lookt for nor hangs together Master Featlie disputed since with D. Bagshawe Ergo he distrusted not himself in regard of Doctour Smith As well you might haue said Ergo he distrusted himself the tergiuersatiō was a signe of it in regard of D. Smith seeing that neither then nor since though meeting others he durst meete him And Ergo he tooke D. Smith to be the greater Scholler as not daring to encounter him any more though he had leaue and list and opportunitie to a. I do not think him willing to see a true Relation of that Conference ab●oad in print trie himself on some others Apologist As for Master Kneuet that he died no Papist as you report but a most zealous Protestant one Master Russ●l diuers other without exception yet liuing are readie dailie to testifie against you Censure Diuers other Your self and Featl●e be not you the diuers other If you be you may strike out againe those words without exception He speakes in his owne cause and makes vse of you to vent his inuentions In that regard your testimonie cannot serue and in another too Qui s●mel verecundiae limites transilijt It is not long since you were taken with a lie But Master Russell where dwells he in V●opi● One who was in Paris at the time of the Conference writes I haue it vnder his hand thus Master Kneuet after the Disputation told me that he did like and think better of the Catholik Religion He much commended M. D. S. new L. Bishop of Chalcedon for his temper confessing that Master Featlie was to weake to vndertake him and that he thought fewe men could haue spoken better then my Lord did He disliked M. Featlies cariage because it was immodest He highlie commended the solitarie and vertuous liues of the Carthusians and other Religious persons In fine he told me that he would go for Italie and prouiding himself for the iourney took with him four or fiue letters in his commendation from Catholike Doctors of this towne to their freinds and acquaintance there And I heard afterwards that in Venice he died a Catholike It is still to be seene in their Librarie now at Arras Colledge in Paris with his name by himself written in it Another who was at the Cōference thus What opinion M. Kneuet had of the Disputation and the Disputant appeared sufficientlie in this that he thereupon brought his Bible of the Heretickes translation which he had brought out of England with him to D. Smiths lodging being then in Cambray Colledge giuing it to the common Librarie But when M. Featlie according to his promise was to come into the list and answer before D. Smith he like a coward cryed crauen and quite forsook the field for M. Kneuet hauing beene three daies in seeking him as he said could heare no newes of him But saith he I see will enough how th● world goeth and so resolued to

to set downe the confirmations or shew the groūds of our tenet and for excuse pretends that it was against the lawes of the disputation wherein it was agreed as he relates that Master Featlie at that time should onlie oppose and D. Smith onlie a He should haue added that M. Featlie should answer another daie for this was likwise agreed vppon but he could not be brought to do it answer Whereas it was tould him thē that it hath been and still is the custome in Oxford for the Defendant to do that which my Lord would haue done and the Vniuersitie hath conceaued it to appertaine as indeed it doth to the Defendants part which M. Featlie cauilling at in the beginning shewed himselfe not willing to enter in to the combat with my Lord of Chalcedon if he could haue put it of and therefore being conscious of the weakenes of his cause thought the verie sight of our tenet as it appeares to Schollers would ouerthrowe his vtterlie and that euerie word by waie of preface was an argument to conuince it The same feare and in the experience of the first conflict much augmented he betraied againe afterwards when he was called vpon to be defendant according to promise as appeares by the end of the relation where the Reader will see with what tergiuersation he did shift it of And since that time also in England it self twice to my knowledge I can put the particulars downe when time serues he hath refused to meete my Lord in dispute Being himselfe in his Relation to tell the state of the Question he puts downe a discourse to make the simple Reader giddie to the end he see not on which side the truth stands and which of the Disputants haue the vpper hand whereas the state of the Controuersie is in it selfe cleere plaine The Catholikes hold and beleeue that in the holy Eucharist there is the bodie and blood of our blessed Sauiour trulie reallie and substantiallie Conc. Trid. Sess 13. can 1. condemning such as hold it to be there onlie as in a signe or in a figure or in vertue Ibidem a Ioan. 6. v. 55.56 1. Cor. 11. v. 24.25 Cōc Trid. sess 7. can 6. sess 1● cap. 1. S. Tho. 3. p. q. 83 a 1. ad 2. a 2 ad 2 Decret de Consec Dist 2. c. 48. 72. We doe not denie that it is there virtute in vertue efficacie it hath vertue power there to worke in the Soule neither doe we denie that it is there as in a figure for the Eucharist is an image of the passion or that it is there as in a signe the exteriour species are a signe of that which is within It is a Sacrament also a Sacrament is a signe But wee denie a tatummodo vt in signe vel in figura aut virtute ex Can. 1. that the bodie blood are ther onlie so beleeuing that they are there according to the veritie and substance of bodie and blood The Sacramentarians for whom D. Featlie disputed against our tenet hold the contrarie vzt that the bodie blood of our Sauiour be not in the Eucharist truelie according to the veritie and substance of the thing signified by those names Cited by my Lord of Chalcedon in the Conference of Cath. Protest doct c. 10. a. 1. The Sonne of God is by the mysticall benediction vnited to vs corporally as man but as God spiritually with the grace of his spirit renewing our spirit to new life and participatiō of the diuine nature S. Cyrill Alexād li. 11. in Io. c 27. See Cardinall Perō again S. Ples Mornay Paris 1622. but that the Eucharist is a signe figure of it onlie Iewell it is not indeed Christs bodie Peter Martyr it is not properlie the bodie of Christ Musculus it is not the verie bodie Cartwright it is onlie a signe Perkins it is onlie a signe and seale of the bodie Zuinglius it is onlie a figure Beza it was meere bread and wine which our Sauiour gaue with his hands Caluin the bodie is exhibited according to the vertue not according to the substance And Featlie in his Relation pag. 3. Christ is not therein according to the substance of his naturall bodie and pag. 4. the words of institution are to be construed figuratiuelie and not properly according to the rigour of the letter And a little before not in the proper sence Against this Heresie of the Sacramentarians we oppose plaine Scripture and the direct affirmation of Iesus Christ whith the vnanimous interpretation of Antiquitie and general consent of the Church in whom the holie Ghost determines controuersies appertaining to diuine faith and hath determined this which was beleeued in all ages and generallie professed in all Christian Countreies when Luther who faine would but in conscience as a Epist ad Argentin he said could not contradict it did beginne to deuide himselfe from the Church D. Featlie opponent is to proue the Catholike tenet to be false and that in the Eucharist there is not flesh and blood according to the substance of the thing but a signe or figure of it onlie THE FIRST ARGVMENT DAn Featly The words of Christ This is my bodie are vnderstoode of a figure therefore not of the bodie it self Doctour Smith I distinguish your antecedent 1. Of a meere figure such as were the legall figures which the Apostle calles egena elementa Gal. 4. poore elements or such as statuaes are in regard of the thinges they doe represent I denie your Antecedent 2. Of a figure which hath the verity ioyned together with it in which kind the Sonne according to the Apostle to the Hebrewes Heb. 1. is the figure of his Fathers substance and a Kinge shewing in triumph how he did behaue himselfe in the warre is in this later action a figure of himselfe as in the former and breade exposed in the shop is a figure of it selfe as to be sold So I graunt your antecedent and denie your consequence D. Featly Tertulian lib. 4. contr Marc. c. 40. saith Acceptum panem distributum discipulis corpus suum illum fecit hoc est Corpus meum dicendo id est figura corporis mei The breade taken and distributed vnto his disciples he made it his bodie saying this is my bodie that is the figure of my bodie Therefore according to Tertullian those wordes are vnderstoode of a meere figure D. Smith You passe quickly from Scripture to the Fathers yet you are woont to say Collat. li. 2. ca. 22. that the Fathers though conspiring all together be not authenticall and infallible expositors of the Scripture wherefore your argument relying vpon the Fathers exposition is weakely grounded according to the tenet of your owne men To the place obiected I Answer Lactan. Instit diuin li. 5. c. 1. Hieron li. de Instit mon. ad Paul that Tertullian as Lactantius and S. Hierome haue well obserued

tell you Your Sophistrie is slender and boyish your verie A. B. C. of Logick will teach you Onlie smile at some passages and they are answered He must giue me leaue to answer with a smile you doe wiselie to applie your self to the vnlearned for they that can sift authors we will pardon his doting you close this sentēce verie saucilie if you were not as good as cup-valiant though you should teach the ignorant as seldome you do now at least in his place I am to do so but Mercurie is not made of euery stock Pardon my interrupting of you I was wearie in gathering those phrases out of your booke Brieflie that I may end though you do not you tell him he is shameles and foole-bardie that there is in h● answer that Reader which thou hast but now seene insufficiencie and obstinacie fallacious dealing the spirit of contradiction bitternes satyrs inuectiues jeeres slaunders detractions lies non-sence calumniations and what not yet forsooth if some lines may seeme to gall him I ' le make say you no Apologie because it can plead retaliation Can it so Master Waferer and are the holie Brethren vindicatiue indeed It seemes Et Laeto sua bilis inest I haue recited part of your language which you say you deuided betwixt them two for you deale by retaile with them with other Catholike Deuines you deale in grosse calling their learning iugling Philosophie their tenets impious delusions their pens impudent and their doctrine such as will not stick to license the lowdest lie so it be aduantagious to the cause of Rome So you There are some the Philosopher tels qui circa finem communem peruerse iudicant who iudge vnto wardlie of the the common highest end You know their name The Scripture saith there are an infinite companie of fooles and euerie one will be medling you beginne to be wise in your owne conceit I will answer or censure you this once least that egge prooue a cocatrice in your braine my Censure shall be your glasse wherein you may examine both your learning and your manners and amend I shall be thought by some lesse wise for appearing with you vpon ●he stage especiallie in the manner that I do but no matter so I may do you or any other good One said S. Paul to the weake I became as weak that I might gaine the weak and I am made all things to all men to gaine all to Christ. To deale with you required no sad thoughts or deep studdie and there are Feriae Academicae schollers haue their daies of recreation Neque semper arcum you came abroad Master Waferer as I suppose a fit of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to shew Mirth and I without offence may sometimes smile congruit veritati ridere quia laetans Tertull de suis aemulis ludere quia secura est It appertained to the part I vndertook Vbicumque dignus risus officium est Sickmens pills are lapt in sweete some maladies be cured with musick If mirth recouer you I shall be glad I made you merrie If vpon the Censure you grow penitent I shall be glad I made you sorrie Not that you were made sorrie but that you sorrowed to repentance To others I shall giue warning to take heede of such Pāphlets as yours made to spred errours they be prophane and vaine bablings that increase by degrees to more and more vngodlines they partake in their kind the pestilent nature of serpents and this yours Master Waferer which raiseth vp the head to hisse at the doctrine of the Church and spits venom at the Defenders of it is one But I will cut it into pieces and with the segments will make a medicine to cure the swelling which another of the same kind Featlies Conference hath made in your head This your Pamphlet the gay coate of your Indiscretion you haue laced vp and downe verie trimlie with verses Nunc oblita mihi tot carmina It is longer since I was a child Els out of the ruines of that kind of learning I would hurle sometimes a piece at the head of your Apologie My quarrell Master Waferer is not with your person but with your book If I touch you it is by that medium no other put that of I touch not you but some other that hath scribbled it Whether you be the man or not I wish to you as to my self and to all that God in his mercie will please to amend what is amisse in vs and make vs eternallie his seruants This is the minde and prayer of Your frindlie Enemie and censuring Friend L. I. ANSWER TO THE EPISTOLARIE PROLOGVE BEfore your Apologie be diuers Epistles scarce worth reading not worth answering In one of them which is to S. E. you quarrell with him first for concealing his name you sawe the first letters of it enough to owne the book He was not to make it further knowne to such as you who vex your Antagonists more with Pursuiuants then with Arguments Had I been the man I might haue told you further that your prophetick wit had half speld the letters begining your Epistle to him thus Sir Refuter in concealing your name c. S. you read sir the title of a Barchelour Dimidium facti qui benè coepit habet Secondlie you quarrell with him for saying that my Lord of Calcedon is a Doctour of Deuinitie and of Oxford he told Featlie so when they met whereas it is conceaued Suprà pag. 8. say you that his Lordship can shew no testimonie of his degree taken then his owne hand Yet he can Master Waferer as good not to say better then your Doctour can for his and deriued from that Authoritie which is able to erect Vniuersities and hath established all that indeed giue degrees in Deuinitie The authorizing of that power which is to giue publik testimonie of abilitie in highest learning and to declare a man fit to teach it teaching of Deuinitie being a matter of great consequence in the Christian Societie doth appertaine to the See Apostolique And he who can erect an Academie can make one to be of it Thirdlie you tax him as if he had said that my Lord Suprà pag. 10. after he was Bishop had challenged Featlie in England you shall haue your answer in the end of the Censure meane while he who reades the words of S. E. will see that you mistake and misreport him In another of your Epistles you shew the streingth of your phantasie which hath suddainlie shrunk S. E. into the littenes of a pigmie and magnified Featlie into a tall Giant He S. E. is say you far belowe the answer of D. Featlie who lookes be like ouer him as the Deuil did the word is ouer Lincolne But if your Champion be so far aboue may it not be waigh them againe because he is in this cause minus habens You adde that some weaker pen your owne may foile him But you beginne to crow to soone