bound in the execution of this their Office to do what belongs to it for the rectifying of mens errors and reforming them from all evil and corrupt practices whether in the worship of God or in their common conversation And thus did those holy and learned men both Bishops and others behave themselves who were the blessed instruments of reforming the Church of England from Popery For the carrying on of which good work God inclined the hearts of our Kings to employ their power for the assistance and encouragement of the Clergy who were engaged in it And herein they did no other than what Hezekiah Iosiah and other pious Kings amongst the Iews did in reforming the Iewish Church And as they needed no new commission from Heaven then for the reformation they wrought having the Law of God to be their rule and warrant no more did our Kings and Bishops whilst they had the Gospel to be theirs according to which they proceeded by degrees Thus in the first place King Henry the Eighth abolished the Popes Supremacy that great fundamental falshood of Popery whilst he retain'd in a manner all other points of it But with great courage and justice he delivered his Kingdom from that yoke of bondage under which the Nation had long groaned even from the Usurpation of the Roman Bishop declaring that he had no manner of power or jurisdiction in his Majesties Dominions but that the King himself next under God and his Christ is Head of this Church that is the Supreme Moderator and Governour over all persons and in all causes as well Ecclesiastical as Civil in these his Realms Wherefore the King with the advice and assistance of his Bishops and Clergy may as lawfully take care for the Reformation of the Church according to the Word of God within his own Dominions as the Kings of Israel or Iudah might do in theirs Yea he is obliged to do it and no foreign power Prince or Prelate hath any the least right to hinder and controul him herein not the Bishop of Rome any more than he of Ierusalem or Antioch And thus far the generality of the Popish Clergy both the Bishops and the Universities concurr'd with the King even such men as Bonner and Gardiner The Popes power being thus broken and abolished this made way for a more thorough Reformation of the Doctrin and worship from many soul errors and superstitions in the days of Edward the Sixth This was for a while interrupted in the reign of Queen Mary but was afterward restored and perfected by the authority of Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory soon after her entrance upon the Government And thus was the Reformation of our Church according to the rule of Gods holy Word most happily begun carried on and compleated in a peaceable orderly and deliberate manner by just and lawful authority even that of the whole Kingdom whether Ecclesiastical or Civil Of which you have an account at large in a late accurate and full History of our Reformation by a Learned hand an Abridgement whereof is done by the same Author in a little room if the History it self be too large for you Our first Reformers then were no Impostors or false Prophets but were indeed sent of God though in an ordinary way being rightly Ordained to the Ministry and duly qualified for that Sacred Office they were guided and directed by the plain Word of God own'd and succeeded by his Providence allow'd and encouraged by his Vicegerents our Kings and Queens and the Reformation at length peaceably and firmly established by the Laws of the Land L. This doubt I think is clearly enough resolved and to me very satisfactorily Pray what 's the next T. He asks whether it can be made good what Luther and Calvin with all Protestants and Presbyterians have so long boasted they could do viz. Reform convincingly any one of the silliest Roman Catholicks that is and to begin let them do it in the matter of the Real Presence L. I do not well understand what he means by this For I think there is no question to be made of it but Luther and Calvin though they were not the Reformers of our Church with other learned Protestants have convincingly reformed many that were Roman Catholicks and in the matter of the Real Presence as well as other points these Converts have been convinced of their error and brought to a sounder judgment agreeable to Scripture and reason T. I think indeed there is more difficulty in finding out the meaning of this question than in answering it though somewhat like it he had before He cannot surely mean that no people who once profest themselves Roman Catholicks as his phrase is have ever been convinced of the errors of the Roman Church so as to forsake the same for thus it hath been with some whole Nations and particularly our own For we grant that in these latter ages our people were generally infected with those errors though from the beginning it was not so And as to Luther and Calvin though they did great service for the Reforming of the Church in their own Countries yet neither they nor any Presbyterians were the chief instruments of that work among us but holy Bishops and many sound and orthodox Preachers ordain'd by them who taught the truth as it is in Jesus and sealed with their blood the truth of what they taught These men by their zealous Preaching their holy living and chearful dying after the example of the Apostles and other Martyrs in the Primitive times did by Gods blessing win over thousands to embrace the Doctrine of the Gospel in its native purity rejecting those Popish errors in which before they had been blindly train'd up Wherefore he might as well say that the Apostles never converted any from Heathenism to Christianity as that our Ministers have never reformed any from Popery What then can he mean I can scarce guess what except that they cannot reform a Papist whilst he still remains one which is as if we should say that the Apostles never converted any heathens because whilst they remain'd heathens they were not converted But I am not willing to think him so weak and silly and therefore till he speaks plainer shall trouble my self no more with this but proceed to his next question which runs thus Can you prove to me clearly out of the written word which you teach ought only to be follow'd as the guide to Heaven that the Sabbath-day is commanded by God to be kept on Sunday and that little children are to be baptized L. Part of this was mention'd before viz. that about keeping the Sabbath for which you shew'd there is enough from Scripture to warrant our practice besides the constant custom of the whole Christian Church ever since the Primitive times and I suppose the same may be said for the Baptism of Infants T. I judge it may and that upon very good grounds For we know that Children were admitted members of
members of their Church they do separate themselves from all other Christians in the world who disown this Universal Headship of the Pope with the rest of their errors L. But they boast much of the Union of their Church because say they go where you will you shall find the same Worship the same Mass and this frequented in all places where their Church is owned by the members of it T. Still this is but an Union amongst themselves such I say as any party may have Quakers for instance may go to Quakers Meetings where ever they travel and yet still remain a Schismatical party And though I lay no great stress upon it yet formerly even in the Church of Rome however it is now with them they have had much variety in their publick Offices according to the different Usages of different places But still I say be they never so perfectly agreed in their own way of worship as well as in Doctrine there is nothing in this to prove them the One Catholick Church Nay it does not so much as prove them to be One with it as a sound part thereof except their Doctrine and Worship be such as agrees with that of the Catholick Church in all ages For any party I have told you may agree amongst themselves even whilst they are schismatically divided from others L. But they say our Church of England is not thus united because many separate from her Prayers and Sacraments T. And what is there no Unity therefore amongst the members of our Church because there are some who through peevishness weakness or any other cause separate from it Does not the main body of the people of this Kingdom through Gods mercy joyn in Religious communion and can freely resort to any Parish Church where they happen to be If some that live in the Nation will not thus joyn is that an argument against the union of those that do In some Popish Countries are there not many thousands who separate from the Church of Rome And do they take that for a good reason to prove them not to be united who joyn with it I trow not but yet it may do much to prove there is little true union amongst them to consider by what means they are held together viz. partly by force and violence at least in many places and partly by keeping the people in ignorance And is it not a fine kind of union think you to have men chain'd together in Iron fetters and kept in a dark Dungeon where they are not able to stir a foot from each other had they never so much mind And had the people in Italy and Spain but more light and more liberty you would quickly see what vast numbers would depart from their communion there as they have done in other places But ignorance is the bond of their union as well as the mother of their Devotion L. Yet is there nothing more common with them than to cry up the Unity of their Church and to exclaim against the divisions which they say are in ours T. They exclaim against them whilst more ways than one they endeavour to promote them They use also their utmost arts to aggravate and enhance them and make them be thought much greater than they are whilst they cunningly endeavour to lessen and conceal those amongst themselves which yet I reckon to be far greater than even those betwixt our Church and the generality of such as dissent from it And sometimes these their differences have been managed with as much heat and violence and have produced fighting and bloodshed as you will find largely related in the most learned Dr. Stillingfleet's Discourse on that subject But besides this certainly the Papists of all people have little reason to cry out against Schismaticks and Sectaries since they themselves will be found to be as great Schismaticks as any at this day amongst us and as dangerous too if we may judg of them by their principles For besides that the whole Popish Church may justly be accounted Schismatical in dividing it self from the rest of Christendom of which more hereafter those of them who live amongst us do wholly separate from our Church and pass a much more heavy doom upon us than I think most of our other Sectaries do For these do generally acknowledg the Church of England to be a true Church and grant her Doctrine to be sound and good and profess to hold communion with us in faith and love whilst they withdraw from us on account of some Modes and Ceremonies in Divine Worship Thus it is with many of them but now the Papists do plainly declare against our Church and Ministers that we have no true Faith nor Sacraments nor Christian virtue or piety but are cursed Hereticks in the most miserable state of damnation And all this chiefly because we submit not to the usurpation of a foreign power that of the Pope which at least in Spirituals they prefer before the power of our own Governours whether in Church or State So that in obedience to the Bishop of Rome who hath no more to do in England than the Bishop of Ierusalem they make no scruple of disobeying the King and Bishops and all the Laws of the Land at least I say in all matters that relate to Religion And whilst the Pope himself is Judg in the case what may he not hook in under that pretence And therefore may the Papists amongst us justly be reckoned as Schismaticks whilst they refuse communion with that Christian Church where they live which is a sound part of Christs Catholick Church and requires nothing unlawful of its members And very dangerous they are because they prefer a foreign Usurper before all the power of our own Church Especially if you also consider the current Doctrine of their Church that this same Usurper the Bishop of Rome has power to depose Heretical Kings as they account ours and to absolve their subjects from their Allegiance and dispose of their Kingdoms to others And this most intollerable tyranny over Princes have sundry Popes exercised when they have had power in their hands and have more than once attempted it in these Kingdoms Yea to this day many of the rigid and stricter sort of Papists refuse to take the Oath of Allegiance wherein this extravagant power of the Pope is denied Judg then whether I had not reason to say that men retaining these principles and on that account rejecting our communion are themselves such notorious and dangerous Schismaticks as have little reason to accuse others of schisms and divisions L. But though we own not the Pope to be an Infallible Iudg of Controversies have not we sufficient means for union in our Church T. Yes we have so whilst we acknowledg the Holy Scriptures to be the Infallible Rule of Faith in which all things necessary to salvation are plainly revealed and do also grant that the Governours of our Church have power to compose all differences
either by Apostasie Heresie or Schism 1 Apostasie is a renouncing not only the Faith of Christ but the very name and title to Christianity No man will say that ever the Church of Rome fell thus 2 Heresie is an adhesion to some private or singular opinion or error in Faith contrary to the general approved Doctrine of the Church If the Church of Rome did ever adhere to any singular or new opinion disagreeable to the common received Doctrine of the Christian world I pray you satisfie me to these particulars 1. By what General Council was she condemn'd 2. Or which of the Fathers wrote against her 3. Or by what authority was she otherwise reproved for it seems to me a thing very incongruous that so great a Church should be condemn'd by every one that has a mind to condemn her 3 Schism is a departure or a division from the unity of the Church whereby that bond and communion held with some former Church is broken and dissolved If ever the Church of Rome divided it self by schism from any other body of faithful Christians brake communion or went forth from the society of any Elder Church I pray satisfie me to these particulars whose company did she leave From whom did she go forth Where was the true Church which she did forsake For it appears a little strange to me that a Church should be accounted Schismatical when there cannot be assign'd another Church different from her which from age to age hath continued visible from which she departed Hence he infers That the Church of Rome is the only true Church that leads to an eternity of bliss T. This indeed they commonly boast of as an unanswerable demonstration which they often scatter abroad in papers for the deluding of silly people Now though I see nothing in it but what has already been answered again and again yet for your fuller satisfaction Consider 1 suppose that we should grant his whole argument and every word in it to be true yet will it do little service to their cause nor will by any means yield that inference he would draw from it viz. that the Church of Rome is the only true Church and therefore to her communion we must betake our selves leaving the Church of England if ever we hope for salvation For pray what if we shou'd grant which yet he will never be able to prove that the Church of Rome is at this day as true and sound and flourishing a Church as we own it once to have been and should yield that it never fell by Apostasie Heresie or Schism what follows hence I beseech you What that she is the only true Church and the whole Catholick Church No by no means but only that she ought to be look'd upon as a sound part of the Catholick Church and therefore that her members viz. the Christians of that Diocess ought to live in strict fellowship with her and all other neighbouring Churches ought to give her due respect in maintaining such communion with her as sister-Churches are capable of holding one with another But it does not I say in the least follow that she is the supreme Mistress and Governess of all other Churches and therefore that all Christians in the world must render subjection to her and her Bishop otherwise they are to be look'd upon as no members of the Catholick Church nor at present in a capacity of salvation For such a supreme Mistress as this she never was when in her best and purest state nor therefore ought she to be esteemed so at this day neither do we of this Church owe obedience to her nor ought we to leave our own Church for her sake or at her command L. I cannot see how his argument proves us at all obliged thereto nor consequently how it reaches his purpose T. That it does not will still appear plainer if instead of Rome you name any other ancient Church suppose that of Ierusalem which was once very glorious and flourishing and deserved above all others to be stiled a Mother-Church now suppose that at this day it remain'd as sound and good as ever it was and to use his language that it never fell by Apostasie Heresie or Schism pray would it hence follow that all other Churches and particularly this of England must therefore yield subjection to the Church of Ierusalem That our Bishops must pay homage to the Bishop of that Church owning their dependance upon him and living in obedience to him And if they should refuse to do thus must our people therefore forsake their own Bishops and Clergy and withdraw from the Churches where they officiate and entertain Bishops or Priests that are sent over to us from Ierusalem and run into corners with them for the worship of God Surely there is not the least reason for any of this and not a whit more is there for our being thus subject to the Bishop of Rome or for our receiving and joyning with the Priests which are sent over to us by his authority There never was nor is now any reason why we should be thus enslaved to the Romish Church For in the very days of the Apostles and some hundred years after when that Church was in its best and purest state we of the Church of England rendred no such obedience to it own'd no such dependance upon it Neither indeed did the Bishops of that Church then claim any such power and Supremacy over us and other foreign Churches Wherefore as our ancestors the British Christians did not subject themselves to the Bishop of Rome nor ever thought such a subjection necessary to their salvation no more have we reason to do Whatever power or precedency the Bishops of Rome might afterwards have in these Western parts either by favour of the Emperor or by consent of the Bishops amongst themselves or most of all by their own daily encroachments by the meer advantage of their Seat without either law or reason this I say nothing at all concerns us at this day since all his power here is utterly abrogated and taken away by just and lawful authority in a most mature and deliberate manner as you before heard And I then told you how in Henry the Eighth's time before our happy Reformation it was generally own'd and declared by the Popish Clergy themselves that the Bishop of Rome had no more authority over us in England than the Bishop of Ierusalem Antioch or any other foreign Bishop And long before that our Laws limited and restrain'd the Popes power as it seem'd good to our Rulers And so do Popish Princes themselves at this day suffering him to have no more power or priviledg amongst them than themselves think fit Since then the Church of Rome in the very days of its primitive purity and glory had no power over us in this Church no more hath it at this day nor ought to have though it were still as pure and good as at first it was
in other cases T. Good reason you have to be so wary since the boast they make of antiquity being on their side is notoriously vain and false and in nothing more palpably than in the present case about the Popes Universal Supremacy For in none of the ancient Councils is any such priviledge given him any more than in holy Scripture which Councils our Church most readily embraces especially the four first Yea the direct contrary is decreed in the very first and most famous General Council that of Nice For therein it was determined as to the Jurisdiction of Bishops that ancient customs should be retain'd and that such eminent Bishops as of Alexandria and Antioch should have the same priviledges in their Precincts that the Bishop of Rome had in his By which decree they within their several limits were made as absolute as he and were not in the least subject to his power nor responsible to him for their proceedings And not to trouble you with many instances in the next age after this there was a great Council in Carthage where St. Austin himself was present in which it was expresly decreed that there should be no appeals to any foreign Bishop after matters had been determined amongst themselves This indeed gave offence to the Pope that then was who pretended that this power of receiving appeals was granted him by the Council of Nice To which the African Bishops answered they had never heard any such matter but would send purposely to Nice it self or some other neighboring Bishops to make enquiry they did so and found all to be meer fraud and forgery Such wicked arts did they of Rome use from the beginning for the justifying and promoting their proud Usurpations Something of a precedency we grant there was very anciently allow'd to the Bishop of Rome which had nothing in it of jurisdiction and power over the rest of his brethren but only was an honour granted him chiefly on account of Rome's being the Seat of the Emperour Hereupon he had many advantages above other Bishops and was capable of doing them good Offices at Court and on that account frequent application was made to him by such as needed his assistance and very often in point of meer prudence matters were brought to him from other Churches and referred to his arbitration Hither also many of the Eastern Bishops were forced to fly for refuge and succour when opprest by the Arrians By these and such like means especially by the Emperour's removal more and more into the East the Bishop of Rome strangely encreased in honour and power and at length in pride and insolence So that in succeeding times as a secular spirit of ambition and covetousness began to infect the greatest Churchmen there were most vehement contests betwixt the Bishops of Rome and of Constantinople for the preheminence For in one General Council it had been determined that because the Emperour had his residence at Constantinople the Bishop of that City should have the same priviledges which the Bishop of Rome had formerly enjoy'd for the same reason And one of the Bishops of Constantinople at length took upon him to stile himself Universal Bishop thereby say learned men claiming rather honour than any jurisdiction over his brethren Yet Gregory then Bishop of Rome was so incensed at it that he positively declared that whoever should assume such a proud title was a certain forerunner of Antichrist This was about six hundred years after our Saviour And not long after it Boniface the third Bishop of Rome by means of the wicked Phocas who had murdered his Master Mauricius and was chosen Emperour in his stead got his Church to be stiled the Supreme of all other Churches though with much ado as their own Historian expresses it But this Supremacy the body of the Greek Church utterly refused to acknowledg and so does to this day though they of Rome have several times used all manner of arts and tricks to draw them into a compliance still persisting in the same methods of fraud and violence for the confirming and securing their arrogant usurpations which at first they made use of to introduce them L. But they say it 's necessary to the unity of the Church that there should be one Supreme Head and Governour T. Very true and so I have told you there is namely the Lord Jesus Christ the only Head of the Catholick Church the Unity whereof consists in the subjection of the members to this same Head by their belief of the same Doctrine and obedience to the same holy Laws and by living in mutual love and charity and Christian communion one with another And herein most plainly doth the Apostle place the unity of the Christian Church Ephes. 4. that they have one Lord one Faith c. but not in their having one chief Ruler under Christ here on Earth whether Pope or Council only they are bound to live in obedience to their own Princes and Bishops in the respective Dominions and Churches where they reside L. They say that Christ alone is the invisible Head but the Pope is the visible Head of the Church T. This is a distinction we no where meet with in holy Scripture and therefore do justly reject it as the fond imagination of their own brain coin'd only to serve a turn But instead of detaining you with any further discourse on this subject I shall refer you to the Learned Dr. Barrow's excellent Treatise which handles it at large if you have leisure to peruse it wherein this pretence of the Popes Supremacy is so shamefully exposed and so fully confuted as cannot but give abundant satisfaction to any intelligent and impartial Reader And this is done with such strength of reason and such full proof from all antiquity that I am apt to think there will scarce be found any of the Champions for the Romish cause as bold men as they be so hardy and impudent as to attempt the returning any answer to that his most solid and impregnable Discourse L. Yet it 's wonder if they do not for they seem most zealous in contending for this above all other Doctrines T. And will you blame them since if this be disown'd the whole fabrick of Popery falls to the ground For if the Pope be not Head of the Church then all Princes in their own Dominions will be found to be Supreme Moderators and Governours in all causes and over all persons as well Ecclesiastical as Civil which is our meaning when we stile the King Head of our Church and then what reformation they with their Clergy have made according to the Holy Scriptures will appear justifiable Yea then these Princes may confer all manner of Church-preferments in their own Kingdoms without asking the Popes leave or expecting his confirmation and all Ecclesiastical causes may be determined without any appeals to Rome And if the King of England may do this in his Dominions as most certainly he may then
may the King of France do the same in his as if the Pope should provoke him probably he might and so may all others if they please By which means at length the Bishop of Rome would be confined to his own Diocess and his Spiritual power be shut up in much the same limits with his Temporal But alas what an utter ruin would this be to the Papal dignity and honour How would their treasures be drain'd their glory sullied and their power abated yea even reduced to nothing No wonder therefore if Bellarmine in the Preface to his Books of the Romish Bishop stiles this Doctrine of his Supremacy the very summ or chief point of Christianity Had he said of Popery it had been true enough For 't is plain they look upon this as one of the most weighty articles of their faith Let this be denied our conformity to their Church in all other things will signifie little or nothing As it appears in Henry the Eighths case for though he still retain'd the main Body of Popery yet because he rejected this power of the Pope he was reckoned and treated as an Heretick and Apostate Whereas let this be but own'd and you shall be dispensed with in many other things As our Historians tell us it was offered to Queen Elizabeth that we should have our Service in English Communion in both kinds c. provided she would submit to the Popes authority and own his Supremacy L. This is I perceive so useful an opinion that they have great reason to be zealous in asserting it but it doth so apparently serve their own ends that were it for nothing else I should mightily suspect the truth of it but by the very slender proof they bring either from Scripture or Reason I am sufficiently assured that it is notoriously false T. Good ground you have so to be yet pray consider what mighty stress they lay upon this idle opinion whilst they confine the Catholick Church to those who embrace it and Excommunicate all others as Hereticks and Schismaticks Yea such homage they pay to this their great Master that even in things of an indifferent nature they will rather yield obedience to his commands than to those of their own Prince And that 's plain from this instance amongst others that for a considerable time in Queen Elizabeths days the Papists came to our Churches but after the Pope had sent order to the contrary they generally desisted And I have heard some eminent Papists alledging the Popes Prohibition as the chief reason of their not taking the Oath of Allegiance So certainly true it is that a Papist acting according to the rules of his own Church can be no further a good Subject than the Pope will give him leave Nor has any Doctrine been more destructive of the rights of Princes and the duty of subjects than this of the Popes Supremacy In pursuance of this or for the promoting it has the peace of the world in these latter ages been greatly disturbed Kings and Kingdoms Excommunicated and endeavoured to be destroy'd Yea for the disowning of this according to their mercyless tenents must we poor Protestants be made utterly miserable both in this life and that to come Here we must be condemned to fire and faggot and hereafter to everlasting burnings even because we will not believe the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar on Earth L. For the sake of this I am more apt to suspect the rest of their Popish Doctrines But though the Pope be not Christs Vicar yet is it not too severe to stile him Antichrist for so it seems many of our Writers do at which my Author is very angry and says it is a calumny and a lye and most intollerable stupidity to assert it T. Certainly not greater than to assert his Supremacy But pray what reason does he give for this his anger and his confidence L. He says that Antichrist shall be a Jew a particular man at the end of the world whereas the Popes be successively many of divers Nations and many ages ago T. Whilst he gives you only his bare word for all this there would need no more confutation than a bare denial Nor shall I give you or my self the trouble to search into the Revelation or any other obscure places of Scripture thence to prove the Pope to be Antichrist Only you may call to mind the saying of Pope Gregory even now quoted That he who should take on him the title of Universal Bishop is the forerunner of Antichrist And so far as Pope Gregory's Infallibility may be allow'd they may serve to prove his Successors to be an Antichristian generation of men But without going about positively to define what is meant by Antichrist in the New Testament that which I would chiefly recommend to your serious consideration in this matter is this That though the Bishops of Rome were at first very pious and good men and so generally continued for some ages yet as they grew in wealth they did by degrees strangely degenerate from the virtue and piety of their Predecessors till at length they with the Grandees of the Clergy who are the Governing part of the Popish faction have most apparently set up and pursued a design exactly contrary to that of our blessed Saviour which design of theirs may therefore well enough be stiled Antichristian and so may the abettors of it who have by the most vile and unchristian methods carried on the same To make this manifest in a few words consider that our blessed Saviour hath expresly told us that his Kingdom is not of this world does not consist in riches honours and worldly dignity but his whole business was to promote the glory of God and the salvation of mens souls by bringing us to the love and practice of piety and humility righteousness and mercy purity and sobriety and all true virtue and goodness But now on the contrary he who stiles himself Christs Vicar plainly enough declares that his Kingdom is of this world For what is it they seek after and so earnestly contend for but worldly greatness and power pomp and glory to make all men pay homage and obedience to them And under this pretence of being Vicar of Christ and Successor of St. Peter have the Popes for many ages exalted themselves above all that is called God I mean above all Civil power above Kings and Emperours who are indeed Gods Vicegerents on earth They have set their feet on the necks of Princes and kickt off their Crowns at their pleasure deposed and destroy'd Kings absolved their Subjects from the Allegiance due to them and disposed of their Kingdoms to others so far as they had power For their own secular interests they have often stir'd up Wars amongst Christian Princes yea themselves have maintain'd and prosecuted the same They have excited the people to Civil Wars and Seditions and sometimes even drawn the Son to rebel against his own Father They have set