Separation Examined OR A TREATISE VVherein the grounds for Separation from the Ministry and Churches of England are weighed and found too light The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable but likewise so hurtful to the Churches that church-Church-Reformation cannot with any comfort go forward so long as such Separation is Tolerated Also an humble request presented to the Congregational Divines that since the differences between them and the Classical-Divines are very small they would please to strike in with the Classical-Divines in carrying on the worke of Reformation before the Inundation of these corrupt Opinions have destroyed both Ordinances and Religion By Gi. Firmin Minister to the Church in Shalford in Essex 1 Cor. 1.10 Now I beseech you brethren by the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that yee all speake the same thing and that there be no Schismes among you Judicabit autem eosqui schismata operantur qui sunt immanes non habentes Dei dilectionem suamque utilitatem potius considerantes quà m unitatem Ecclesiae propter modicas quaslibet causas magnum gloriosum corpus Christi conscindunt dividunt c. Irenae l. 4. c. 62. Cavenda sunt autem fratres dilectissimi non solum quae sunt aperta manifesta sed astutae fraudis subtilitate fallentia c. haeteses invenit schismata quibus subverteret fidem veritatem corrumperet scinderet unitatem Cypr. de unit Eccles LONDON Printed by R. I. for Stephen Bowtell at the Bible in Popes-head-Alley 1652. The Contents THere are true visible Churches in England pag. 1 There is a true Gospel-Ministry in England pag. 4. The grounds of Separation must be either in the Ministry Worship Congregation or Place of meeting p. 12 The Ordination of the Ministers by Bishops can be no ground for Separation p. 22 There can be no ground in the Worship being singing of Psalms is here touched p. 32 There can be no ground in the Congregation though many wicked persons be there Nor in the place of meeting p. 39 The Proposals of the Separatists what they would have are set downe and answers returned as 1 They would have Ministers lay downe their former Call and joyne with them then they it may be will elect them and ordaine them where this question is handled p. 46 Quest Whether election only gives the essentials to a Minister and Ordination be but an Adjunct p. 50 Whether the People have power to Ordaine p. 70 Whether the Fraternity be the first subject of the power of the Keys briefly touched p. 73 2 They will have an explicite Covenant which they call the forme of a Church p. 81 3 No Church-Members but visible Saints p. 82 4 Power in Admissions and Excommunications p. 83 5 Liberty to Prophesie p. 84 6 Liberty of Conscience p. 88 How it appeares that Church-reformation cannot with comfort proceed so long as the Separation is Tolerated p. 91 The Separatists are no such-friends to the Civill Power as is pretended p. 94 The Questions propounded to the Separatists in reference to their Separation p. 97 The agreements and differences with and between the Classicall and Congregationall Divines are reviewed their agreements found to be many their differences very few p. 100 Whence an humble request is presented to the Congregationall Divines speedily to joyne with the Classicall Divines backed with seven reasons p. 108 To the Reverend the Ministers of London the Authors of the Vindication of the Presbyteriall Government and Ministry c. Printed 1650. Fathers and Brethren THe goodnesse of God manifested of old to England in causing the Sun of his Gospel to rise early upon this Nation and to finde such entertainment in the hearts of the Supreame Power that it was the first Nation that ever received the Gospell with the countenance of publick Authority having the first Christian King that ever was is knowne to the whole Christian world his goodnesse in these latter dayes since he tooke from our necks the Anti-christian yoke hath been also wonderfull honouring the Ministers of his Gospel with such Holinesse Learning Ministeriall abilities and successe in their labour in converting many and setting up the power of godlinesse in this Nation that he hath not honoured any Nation more nay without pride it may be spoken his Free Grace hath not honoured any Nation so much in these respects as this English Nation but now in our dayes the Ministry which God hath thus honoured is as much dishonoured and that by such who cannot but acknowledge their owne mouthes have spoken it that what Spirituall good they have received it was wrought by the Ministry and now we finde scorning deriding separating from the Ministry and many not so much as stepping over their thresholds to heare them who were the first instruments of their good if they have any as some we hope have and yet the Ministers are the same they were before yea some repenting that ever they bestowed so much paines and time to follow the Minister as one that lives but foure or five miles from Dedham hath said He repented that he followed that eminent Servant of God Mr. Rogers so much to heare his preaching While I observed these things and considered into what a sad condition we are fallen and read over your Vindication in which I saw a holy meeke and true Christian spirit breathing calling upon the Congregationall men to joyne with you certainly I thought that Booke deserved a courteous Christian answer from the ablest of our Congregationall men what they have done towards it I know not being little acquainted with affaires abroad being locked up in much sadnesse of spirit at home but I thought with my selfe that being I was numbred among the Independents though I am the weakest and most worthy the holy Lord should turne me out of his holy Work laying other things together which I have mentioned in the Epistle to the Reader I resolved to improve the little Talent the Lord had given me in examining the grounds of these practices and to stand up in the defence of such Ministers who I saw were deare to Christ and whom in holinesse learning and abilities the Lord had honoured farre before my selfe And now my Fathers the quarrell is not only with you because you are Presbyteriall Ministers the quarrell is with the whole Ministry for this spirit hath infected even some in New England and I beleeve will cause more troubles there in those Churches then ever the Bishops did though they threatned them much What are the practices of some and what are the feares of the worthy Ministers there I understand by Letters I doe not I dare not censure the Congregationall Churches here some of the Ministers I know to be holy and reverent I wish I had such grace many Members no doubt are really godly but had I not lived in New England and seene the Churches there by what I heare of divers and what I know by some Churches here
or three yeares together in secunda Epist and Episc orient Hence also care was taken afterwards that none but Bishops should make this the Presbyters must not dare to doe it Sylvester in Concil Rom. Also holy Vestures for the Ministers to be used onely in the Churches many of ours never owned these Epist Steph ad Hil. all have cast them away Also in the Lords Supper the mixing of water with the wine which how ever some say it was because of the hot Countries yet Alexander who they say was the first that mixed water with wine Epist ad omnes Ortho. Apol. 2. doth not give that reason but because water and blood came out of Christs side In Justin Martyrs time it seemes this was their manner also but this was not the Institution Also we find severall Church-officers among them as appears by Gaius Bishop of Rome who ordered that all the orders in the Church must ascend from the door-keeper to the Bishop Ostiarius Lector Exorcista Acolythus Subdiaconus Diaconus Presbyter Episcopus The ordination of these Officers with their Ceremonies are after set downe in the fourth Councel of Carthage If the Decretals of Gaius be of any Authority all these were in primitive Churches before Constantine came to the Empire More things I might adde but I forbeare And though there were many glorious Martyrs yet all their Church-members were not such many did yeeld to the heathenish Idolatry when persecution began yea and there were foul sins among them Churches as Adultery Whoredome yea even among those who had beene Confessors as Cyprian affirmes ingemiscimus saith he to see it drunkennesse swearing and what not as any one may well gather who is but a little versed in Antiquity De unita Eccles and by reading over the Canons made in their Councels we may learne what they were troubled with As for the Ministers they also were ordained by Bishops though they were not such lordly ones as ours were with Presbyters joyning with them this no man can deny that knows any thing of those times whence then I am bold to affirme that if there were true Ministers and true visible Churches in those times even while they were under persecuting heathenish Emperours then there are true Ministers and true visible Churches now in England and if there be none now neither were there any in those times but I thinke no man is so impudent to deny that there were true Ministers and Churches in those times I plead now for many Presbyteriall Ministers and their Congregations So I have done with my second Argument which if I should draw into forme it runnes thus If there were true Ministers and true visible Churches in the first three hundred yeares after Christ then there are true Ministers and visible Churches now in England But the Antecedent is true ergo the consequent is true Some we have that dote they tell us they expect men to be sent from God and endued with extraordinary gifts as were the Apostles c and these are the men who shall set up Churches and reforme us Good Lord whither will our vile hearts carry us if thou dost leave them These persons are not worth the answering but yet let me say a little to them and so passe on to the chiefe thing I intend For the gift of Tongues I need not speake what is necessary God hath given to most and many excell in that gift For Miracles I They were given but for that time to help on the worke of the Ministry as sauce doth meat but now if God doth that by the Ministry of his Servants without Miracles which he did then by the Ministry accompanied with Miracles viz. Convert Edifie Formalize c. this doth but more confirme our Ministry and prove that God ownes these despised Ministers The plaine word preached hath made as good Christians as preaching and Miracles 2 If any Body hath need of the gift of Miracles then Master Eliot in New England hath who now preaches to the Indians and others with him but God carrieth on his worke amongst the Indians without miracles 3 Doe not you your selves beleeve the Scriptures to be the Word of God if so what need have you of such kinde of persons so gifted The greatest Miracle which I desire to confirme me in the truth of the Scriptures is to finde the power of Christ his Death and Resurrection in my heart without which I care not for miracles But enough for these There are others who having been Members of an Independent Church where divisions have fallen out and so have broke in peeces they have said that Ministers are not fitted with a spirit of Government to keep Churches in order and therefore these are not times as yet for such Reformation I answer 1 The more shame for your Church-Members who are of such proud and turbulent spirits that godly and able Ministers are not able enough to governe them those who come into Church Communion with the awe of God upon their hearts we can governe them some such spirits we finde among the Independents but if we could see more it would be better 2 I wonder not at your Divisions when I see what Principles some godly Congregationall men have gone by for the ordering of their Church Government 3 Your Argument is as strong against the Apostles for there were Heresies and Schismes in their dayes But I leave these and return to that from whence I have made a digression Having then proved there are true Ministers and Churches in England let us examine the grounds why these men separate from these Ministers and Churches I conceive their grounds may be referred to one of these heads Either to The Ministers Either to Or Worship Either to Or the Congregation Either to Or the place of meeting If there be any thing else that cannot so well be reduced to one of these yet I am sure I shall meet with it before I have done For the Ministers they are indeed made the Dung of England who are more scorned then they especially the Presbyteriall men be they never so holy or learned Whether there be just cause in respect of men I leave it to God to judge I am sure when Ministers were in honour we found the Word had good effect but since they came to be thus scorned little good hath been done I deny not but God may have a just quarrell against us and give me leave without offence to propound the Reasons why 1 The first I had rather conceale because I should seem to spy out a mote in my Fathers and Brethrens eyes when I have a beame in my owne but therefore I rather propound it as I heard it from a Reverend and judicious Divine a man of a gracious and moderate spirit Mr. Nathaniel Rogers in New England I was talking with him there when the newes came of the Covenant that England and Scotland entred into the thing pleased him and all our
questioned till our Separatists rose up who are not comparable to them in parts or holinesse 2 I pray what doe you make of those Ministers who were ordained in the Primitive Churches Cyp. Epis 33 they were ordained in Cyprians time by Bishops and Presbyters and by Hieroms time the Bishops had ingrossed that power into their owne hands as appeares by that speech of his Excepting Ordination Epist ad Evagr. what doth a Bishop that a Presbyter doth not so that by this time it should seeme that the Presbyters were turned out and the Bishops only Ordained It is possible this might be but in some Churches for the fourth councell of Carthage ordered That no Bishop should Ordaine without the councell of his Clergy Can. 22. Can. 3. Now what were these no Ministers Anti-christ was not yet got into his Seat for the yeares of his reigne had been expired before this time It is strange that those should be no true Ministers who lived so neare the Apostles times and under persecution also as in Cyprians time neither was Cyprian surely the first Bishop that did Ordaine for there were Bishops before him yea besides this Ordination by Bishops we finde the Papists contending strongly for strange Rites which they use in Ordination and they say they were also used in those Primitive times for the anointing of the hands of the Presbyter that is ordained this they would prove from Cyprian or at least the Author of The Card. worke of Ch. who shou ld seeme to be as old as Cyprian also from Eusebius Hist Eccles l. 10. c. 4. which place would seeme to favour it and others there are whom they quote See Greg. De Val. to 4. d. 9. q. 5. Also for the shaving of the heads of their Ministers this we finde indeed in August time Ep. 26. Ep. 147. And this Calvin himselfe doth not deny to have been used then and gives the reason why it was used which Greg. de Val. scornes and gives other reasons To. 4. D. 9. q. 5. p. 3. If the Decret Epistles of Anicetus be of any Authority we shal finde it in his days long before Augustin and I wonder that Greg. Val. doth not quote him I am apt to think being they were so prone to Ceremonies in other Ordinances that something was added to this also Iust l. 4. c. 19 Sect 27. and I marvel that in the fourth Councell of Carthage where they set down their rites in Ordinations of other officers and some very ridiculous that the ordination of Presbyters should be the most pure but still with Bishops as well as Presbyters which is the thing now in hand 3 A Bishop if you consider him meerly as a Bishop was but a Minister and set apart to doe the worke of a Minister the same which all other Ministers may doe Bishops did Pray Preach Baptize administer the Lords Supper Ordaine Suspend Excommunicate and these things other Ministers doe and may doe that he did lift up himselfe above other Ministers that was his errour that he would take upon him the sole power of Ordination and Excommunication this was his errour but as the addition of an human invention did not null the Ordinances as suppose only growne persons had been baptized and that by dipping and after dipping they had been signed with the signe of the Crosse would this have nulled the Ordinance in the Anabaptists esteeme no more this usurpation of the power of administring these Ordinances did null a Bishop so as he was no Minister the Ordinances were and are Christs institutions Indeed you may call him an Over-growne Presbyter but a Presbyter 3 Ep. Ioh ver 10. Diotrophes loving of pre-eminence did justly deserve reproofe and John did no doubt deale with him but yet for present did not deny him to be a Minister though a corrupt one for the sole power of Ordination they tell us It is the order of the Church of England as of the Councell of Carthage that when a Presbyter is Ordained all the Presbyters that are present shall lay hands As for the sole power of Excommunication though it was an errour grosse enough yet by the 17. Canon Concil Sardic Ofius who was the cause of that Ganon being made was also at the Councel of Nice it should seeme the Bishops by that time had got that power to excommunicate alone which Canon provides a remedy for a person wrongsully excommunicated by his Bishop to got releefe by Appeales now if that corruption had got in so early long before Anti-christ had got to his Seat no wonder though it was found among our Bishops yet I hope they were true Ministers whom they Ordained As a Bishop was a Lord Bishop his Lordship was but a meere civill addition annexed to the Bishoprick by Regallfavour his Lordship was no ingredient into Ordination 4 The Lawes of this Realme doe account nothing Divine in a Bishop but his being a Presbyter Lond. vind 125. Dr. Seam answ to Diat p. 85. and therefore the Parliament in their Ordinance for Ordination tels us that they did ordaine as Presbyters not as Bishops much lesse as Lord Bishops yea I have heard a reverend Minister now Pastor of a Congregationall Church in Essex say that when the Bishop ordained him he told him I doe ordaine you as I am a Presbyter 5 The Ministers of England are ready to acknowledge those defects and corruptions which did cleave to their entring into the Ministry by the Bishops heare their owne words London Vindica p. 124. We doe not deny but that the way of Ministers entring into the Ministry by the Bishops had many defects in it for which they ought to be humbled but we adde that notwithstanding all the accidentall corruptions yet it is not substantially and essentially corrupted They acknowledge then the errour and desire to be humbled for it what more would you have God will accept of this I doubt not and why not you How to mend Dr. Seamans Divinity I know not where you have also the errour acknowledged implicitely for it is in answer to this Objection then giving his judgement in the case When sinne cleaves to the manner of Calling Answer to Diat p. 85. through the generall errour or corruption of all sorts of people who are concerned in it c. it is nototherwise to be invalidated here below then by doctrinall Censure and Repentance and not by iteration Repentance through Christs Bloud doth take away corruption out of Gods fight and will it not when they are so ingenuous out of your sight 6 There is a maxime taken up among the Independents Many may truly beare the name yea they owne it and practise accordingly yea and others and it goeth for as good Divinity as any the Gospel hath viz. That errours in Non-fundamentals must be borne withall in Churches we must labour indeed to convince people of such but if they will not be so convinced we must not
Churches exceedingly This only said he I have not heard of That there hath been a generall Humiliation amongst the Ministers for their yeelding so much to the superstitious inventions of that Hierarchy 2 I conceive God may justly have a quarrell against us the younger sort of Ministers for our wofull conformity to the Fashions of the times what long haire now doe we see most young Ministers weare and if any new fond fashion comes up who follows it sooner then they Who take more liberty here then Independent Ministers the younger sort 3 There hath been a too great Idolizing of Learning and abusing it in Sermons by reciting of the Fathers or School-men some men fondly making it may be a quarter of their Sermons to be Latine or Greek sentences out of them and then turning them into English to make people admire them and conclude them to be great Schollars not but that it is lawfull to quote a Father or a Schoole-man but I speake of that excesse and pride also that went along with it that they thought themselves so exalted above the people and looked on them as the Pharisees Joh. 7.49 Hence God doth now let Ministers and Learning be trampled upon But this was not the fault of those godly men who now are despised as much as the worst 4 There is in some young Ministers a too base esteeme of private Christians that are not learned I have heard my selfe those who have spoken very contemptibly of them scorning they should have any hand in Church affaires now it is true there are abundance of private Christians very weake but some there are solid understanding men and though we doe not admit these to be Governours in the Church unlesse chosen to the Office of a Ruling Elder to joyne with us yet Ministers shall finde sometimes that they have no cause to repent in giving an eare to what they say These things I have observed and wish especially for the three latter that God hath not brought us downe for them I might have added some young Ministers study more quint-essentiall Notions curious Phansies and please people much with fine speculations about Christ and Free Grace but have left the old way of Preaching which did the good This Chymicall Divinity hath pleased mens eares but not awed nor humbled mens hearts it makes frothy but not solid Christians But these are not to be imputed to all the Presbyterians who are thus scorned But now to the Ministers The generall apprehension that these men have of the Ministers is that they are Anti-christian Ministers and what is more common in their mouthes then to call them so This is a heavie charge if it could be proved but this terme Anti-christian is both a simple terme a complexe Proposition a Syllogisme i. e. they think it sufficient proofe to charge them with it though hundreds of these know no more then a Babe wherein the formality of Anti-christianisme doth consist but every thing that displeases them that is Antichristian Infant Baptism is Anti-christian the Ordination of Ministers is Anti-christian singing of Psalms is Anti-christian it is proofe sufficient they have said it now this seemes to me very strange that those men who Instrumentally 1. Convert men to Christ 2. Build up men in Christ 3. Oppose Anti-christ to the utmost 4. Who have cast off Anti-christ 5. If they were under Anti-christs power should soon finde his favour to be Fire and Faggot yet these men to be called Anti-christians I say with the Text The Lord rebuke thee O Satan But if you will take Anti-christ in a large sence why may not those be as truly called Anti-christians who doe throw downe what Ordinances Christ hath set up as The Ordinance of the Ministry giving his promise to be with it to the end of the world the Baptizing of the infants of beleeving Parents singing of Psahnes any forme of externall Church-Government all these are throwne downe by most of you and many walke above Ordinances I say may not these be called as truly Anti-christians in a large sence who thus throw downe what Christ hath set up as well as those who set up such Ordinances as Christ never did set up which is one signe of Anti-christianisme But if you would know what is properly Anti-christianisme Exposi on Hos first Book p. 162. I pray take it from a farre more able man then my selfe one well knowne and that deserves honour Mr. Burroughs he well observed the madnesse of people that cry out against any thing that displeases them that it is Anti-christianisme then sets downe thus wherein it consists 1 Whosoever shall obtrude any Doctrine upon the Church to be beleeved by their owne Authority 2 The intrusion of such Offices and Officers in the Church as meerly belong to the spirituall man 3 The imposing of any Ordinance or new Institution upon the Church 4 The imposing of Lawes so to binde Conscience as the Lawes of Christ doe This saith he is to set up another head I need not adde the owning of the Pope as a visible Monarchical head over the Church who doth all that which Mr. Burroughs hath mentioned but this then I desire that any who thus call the Ministers Antichristian would charge them and make it good that they are guilty of any of these things or else be ashamed for ever after to call faithfull Ministers of Christ Antichristians But what colour have these men for this vile aspersion I never heard but onely this their Ordination The summe of all they say amounts to this The Ministers of England stand by a Romish ordination Ergo They are no true Gospel but Antichristian Ministers this is that which makes the heavy stir in England For answer to this I may say as the father of the blinde man He is of age and can speake for himself so the Presbyterial Ministers are of ability sufficient to speake and have spoken enough in answer to this cavill to satisfie sober mindes but what will satisfie unreasonable men I am not very willing to insist upon this because I can speak but little which hath not beene spoken before for the substance but yet this being an ingredient unto the formall cause of a Minister which I have mentioned before and promised to prove that for the substance of the Ordinance our Ministers have it I must speake a few words in answer to their cavils against it The Ordination of these Ministers say they came from the Romish Synagogue they also were ordained by Bishops Ergo They are no true Ministers hence we separate from them I answer First had I thought there had beene such a stirre in England about this I should have laboured to have understood the minds of our Elders in New England about it all the time I was there I never heard the question moved whether they did look on that Ordination they had here as true for substance or not But this I dare boldly affirme for them 1 That
they doe looke upon abundance of our Presbyteriall Ministers as true Ministers of Christ 2 I know that they will disapprove of the practice of some who have separated from the Ministers whom they have before chosen and the godly Congregations upon this notion as I know some have done I do honour the grace of divers of those Christians who separated but Satan got into an Angel of light and deceived especially from that famous Congregation of Dedham of which I dare say that for a Parochial Congregation there is not the like number of reall and visible Saints in any Congregation in England I am sure there was not before this Separation was made and for the Ministers I speake not of them they are men well knowne I wish I had nothing more to trouble me then to live under that Ministry in that Congregation I hope whereas now I am a sad man I should be as chearfull as any man in England Mr. Burroughs said he could communicate in that Congregation then it seemes hee did not question whether there were any true Ministers Object But if you say Our New England Ministers doe renounce their Ordination which they had here for they are ordained againe Answ See Answ to 32. q. 70 It s true they are ordained againe but I never heard it was upon that ground for let a Minister be ordained there in one Church if there be cause of his removall and so be elected in another Church they ordaine him againe Thirdly I can say this our New England Ministers have often desired and frequently admitted to preach in their Congregations that went from hence but were not ordained there But our Ministers of New England are here judged nothing worth but are as contemptible as any in the mouths of our Separatists yet they are men of worth Secondly I answer to what you say It came through and from the Romish Synagogue If your argument have any force you must cast it thus Those Ministers which stand by a Romish Institution are no true Ministers of Christ But the Ministers of England stand by a Romish Institution Ergo the Ministers of England are no true Ministers of Christ The major you will grant and if we can prove the minor our Ministers shall utterly renounce their Ordination I dare undertake for them but the minor is very false they stand by no Romish Institution for Ordination is none of their inventions but instituted by the Lord Jesus himselfe long before Antichrist was But your Argument runs thus Those Ministers which stand by an Institution of Christ descending to them from the Apostles through the Church of Rome they are no true Ministers of Christ But the Ministers of England stand by an Institution of Christ descending to them from the Apostles through the Church of Rome Ergo They are no true Ministers This is the true meaning of your Argument but the major is very false shall the passing through Rome null the Institutions of Christ did not the Scriptures Sacraments and what ever Ordinances we now have descend to us from the Apostles through Rome Shall we therefore cast them away That Argument runnes as strong against our Baptisme and any other Ordinance with which though the Church of Rome mingled their inventions did they therefore null the Ordinance the vessels that were once dedicated to God by his owne Institution though they were put into the house of Nebuchadnezzars gods and those that were fit very like used by Belshazzar to drinke wine in when he praised the gods c. they were not so much as new cast againe but carried to Jerusalem Ezra 1.7 ad fin I pray what doe you thinke of the judgement of Mr. Johnson a man great I am sure among the brethren of the Separation though the Separatists in our dayes make a tush at the judgement of any man yea although he were of the Separation but yet consider the reasons which swayed him and then judge The case was this One that was a Minister in the Church of England was after chosen Teacher to a separate Congregation without any new Imposing of hands this he undertakes to justifie thus 1 Imposition of hands is of God and not an invention of man It was not a postor threshold first brought by Antichrist into the Temple of God but had therein afore Antichrist sate there 2. Baptisme and Imposition of hands are joyned together among the principles of the foundation spoken of Heb. 6.2 therefore it ought to be regarded 3. Imposition of hands is in the Church of Rome still given to the office of the Ministry and in the name of the Lord as they doe also still administer Baptisme 4. We found not either precept example or ground in the Scripture binding us to the repetition of it 5. The Priests and Levites in Israel becoming unclean when afterward they were cleansed retained still their places of being Priests and Levites and the children of the Priests and Levites succeeding after them â—id administer without a new anointing or new imposition of hands c. Thus then as Mr. Johnson and Mr. Ainsworth opposed Rebaptization because Baptisme is an Ordinance of God which was had in the Church of Rome before she fell into Apostasie and hath been there continued ever since the Apostles times how ever co-mingled with many inventions of their owne so Mr. Johnson defended the Ordination of that Minister which he had in England because Imposition of hands was in the Church of Rome from the Apostles times before her Apostasie and is there continued to this day though mixed with many pollutions of their owne I pray onely note this that whereas I say they stand by their Ordination I doe not meane that onely but also they have the election of the people of which I spake before and that the Separatists cannot deny which yet they make the greatest matter in a Ministers call Thirdly I answer If this argument be of any force it would rather prevaile against the first Reformers as in other Nations so against our first Reformers in England who came newly out of Popery but what is this to us who have beene above ninety yeares out of that bondage and have cast off their Government Worship and Doctrine so farre as Antichristian for a long time but if our first Reformers were able enough to maintaine their call then much more our Ministers Fourthly but if you will throw away all that comes through Rome let us see what course you will take when you have denied all the Ordinances that have beene administred for these ninety yeares in England for if no Ministry then certainly no Authoritative preaching no Sacraments and thus you have renounced yuor Baptisme which you had by these Ministers what method will you take in your Reformation how will you come to be re-baptized you will tell me You will covenant together and then elect and ordaine a Minister and he shall baptize Of this more afterward But
let me examine what you say at present You will covenant together supposing your selves to be Saints first say you so are you Saints by calling how came you to be so what did God call you immediately No you must say many if not all of you who have any truth of grace by the preaching of the word what by those Ministers from whom you separate as no Ministers because of their Ordination hath the Lord so farre owned his despised members as to make them the instruments to bring you to be visible Saints fit to imbody or covenant c and are these now no Ministers are you the effect of their Ministeriall labours and they no Ministers Surely in this one thing you have overthrowne your selves but then you say you will ordaine him this I will consider in its owne place Then he shall baptize but since he did renounce his owne baptisme also who shall baptize him first you must have a Minister to do that to be sure he cannot doe it himselfe nor none of you for you are private persons to administer the Lords Supper before you be baptised is contrary to Scripture rules There was a report when I was in New England that a Carpenter re-baptised Mr. Williams In Iust Mar. time none received the Supper but such as were first baptised Apol. 2. Ius Divi. Apend p. 269. and then he did re-baptize the rest I do not stand to defend the thing whether it be true or no but it was like enough to be true and sutable to the other opinions and practises of that wilde generation Where are we now Fifthly that is very observable which the London Ministers have added in the defence of their Ordination That in this Church of England the corruptions which the Church of Rome would have introduced about Ordination of Ministers and other Ecclesiasticall affaires were withstood and opposed by the Kings of England Nor doe we read of any Ministers that were ordained by any Agents sent from Rome but onely some idle ceremonies of Confirmation or them that were ordained by the Pall and the Ring brought thence into England Thus far the London Ministers In the margent they have set downe the Authours that prove it Sixtly There might be another answer given by some who are good Historians which I confesse I am not wanting both time and such bookes so farre as I can goe I will That the Churches in England were at first rightly gathered and constituted it is not to be doubted Mart. 1. Vol. p. 237 last Edition the instruments of gathering being Apostles or Apostolicall men as is evident by Mr. Fox neither is it to be doubted but they did ordaine officers in the Churches for we read of Ministers and Bishops The land falling to the possession of the Saxons about the yeare 568. p. 147. the Story saith by them all the Clergy and the Christian Ministers of the Britains were then utterly driven out in so much that the Arch-bishops of London and Yorke went into Wales thus long then it seemes the Ministers of England had no ordination from Rome P. 149. this appeares also by Austine who came into England in the yeare five hundred ninety eight he about the yeare six hundred P. 153. assembled the Bishops and Doctors of Britaine so that still here were Ministers but where their abode was the story sets not downe but supposed to be towards Wales and charged them to preach the Gospel to the English-men and also that they should among themselves reform certain rites in their Church so that still here were Ministers and Churches specially for keeping of Easter-tide baptizing after the manner of Rome c. to which the Scots and Britaines would not agree this shews they did not depend upon Rome Afterward there was another Synod gathered where seven Bishops of Britaine were present and though we finde a great battell fought presently after where the Britains were overcome yet the Story doth not mention that the Ministers were all slaine there Now the thing I aime at is this that since there were so many Ministers and Bishops in England who had their ordination by succesfion from those Apostolical men and not from Rome and wee finde so many when Austine came why may we not suppose that these might againe preach the Gospel to the English-men though at first they were opposite when they had smarted for their folly and why may we not suppose they might returne into England againe especially into those parts neare Wales also those who were driven out as the Story saith they were suppose into some other parts might not they returne into England also must we take the words of the Story All the Clergy and Christian Ministers were driven out strictly so as none at all were left though latent c those who are good Historians may helpe here and it would be some answer to that objection of our ordination coming from Rome though unto me the objection is very feeble if this answer cannot be made out As for the Churches of England being rightly at first gathered Way of Ch. in N. E. Ch. 7. p. 111. as above mentioned Mr. Cotton yeelds it so as he saith That all the work now is not to make them Churches which were none before but to reduce and restore them to their primitive Institution c. To that part of the Objection They were ordained by Bishops I pray what doe you thinke of Master Bradford and the rest of those holy Ministers and Martyrs that were ordained by the Bishops in those dayes Cranmer Ridley Hooper c was he an Anti-christian Minister and all those Ministers who were then ordained though now they were scarce got out of the Popish Ceremonies c. the holy Martyrs then did never offer to separate from Mr. Bradford and the rest nor call them Antichristian Ministers I pray how many such Bradfords have you among you Not all the Separatists in England can afford such a one Christ cals him his faithfull Minister but you say Mr. Bradford is none cursed be that doctrine Now if those Ministers were true Ministers though they had an Episcopall Ordination then so are ours notwithstanding their Ordination by Bishops It is vaine to say those Bishops were godly men so were ot ours for it is a bold assertion to say that none of the Bishops since have been godly men no doubt there are divers in Heaven And besides it is absurd to thinke that the truth and efficacy of an Ordinance depends upon the truth of Grace in him who doth administer it as for Ceremonies if you search they were not cleare then no more then our Bishops were It is a silly shift to say They walked according to their light I hope there was the same rule to judge of the truth of Ministers then that is now it was not their light which made them true Ministers but the rule But the truth of their Ministry was never
proceed any further to cast them out I have heard the New England Ministers sharply censured because they have excommunicated for some errours i.e. denying of some Ordinances which are supposed to fall within the compasse of Non-fundamentals This maxime is cryed up among the Separatists For the Thesis it selfe considering into what a narrow compasse Fundamentals are pent up I thinke it to be Apocryphall Divinity and just it is with God to let in errours in Fundamentals when such Church and Truthdestructive Principles are drunke in by godly Christians yet let us bring this rule and lay it to the case in hand I hope they doe not make rules for themselves if it be a true Christian Rule it is for all Christians Here then we have men qualified by God with Ministeriall and abundance of them personal gifts they have the election or consent of the people they are separated to the worke of the Ministry by persons who were Ministers but did erroneously assume too much to themselves now grant that here is an errour yet I hope it is not in a fundamentall point Some great Divines call Ordination but an Adjunct and your selves lesse you thinke it a Toy so then if you must not be separated from a Church for errours in Non-fundamentals then neither ought you to separate from a true Church for an errour which is not fundamentall Certainly if that rule hath place any where then here you will by this rule keepe Anabaptists Anti-Sabbatarians Antinomians truly such Anti-Psalmists Arminians c. within your Churches and not cast them out but forsooth a little errour in comparison of them and that acknowledged in the Ministers that is ground sufficient to cast off them and call them Antichristians c. yet there are no conscientious men but these the Separatists Gospel will afford Rules for them but not for other Christians As you trouble the Ministers here so I doubt they will trouble you in the Ordinations of your Ministers that is to make it cleare to them that private men have power to Ordaine I have seene it my selfe when two private men have imposed their hands upon him who was to be their Pastor Another I know whom a Carpenter and a Taylor Ordained with imposition of hands I doubt the Ministers will put you hard to it to prove that this is according to the Rule yea when other Ministers but of other Churches were present these have imposed hands If we consult with the Gospel we shall finde it rather to favour a Bishop though no Lordly one by the example of Timothy and Titus from whom our Bishops proved their Superiority and sole power of Ordination to Ordaine then private men and that in the presence of divers other Ministers I am sure this will be hard to prove from Scripture I shall speake a few words to this point afterward Suppose any of the Bishops had been of that opinion that none but persons growne and making confession of their Faith ought to be Baptized and they would Baptize only by dipping would not the Anabaptists have judged this to be true Baptisme would they null this Baptisme because he was a Bishop since he was a Minister set apart to that worke c. as Austin baptized many thus after he had been in England a while who yet was an Arch-Bishop was that no true Baptisme I doe not thinke that the Anabaptists if they have any braines in their heads will deny that Baptisme were nul if that were good so is Ordination for the substance of it If there have been no true Ministers nor Ordinances nor Churches but where there hath been no humane mixtures nor wicked persons then there hath been but few Ministers Ordinances or Churches since there was a Church upon earth and if there ought to be separation from such Ministers and Churches then we should have found Separatists enough how hardly was Superstition kept out in the Church of the Jewes before the Captivity say how many yeares Alsle Chron. p. 2153. Goodw. Mo. Ar. l. 1. c. 10. Chemnitius in 10. Ioh. takes theeves there to be the Pharisees for their order was not instituted by God nor brought in by the Prophets but only a humane invention and through their owne boldnesse Afterward when Christ came were they cleare what thinke you then of corrupt Caiphas the High Priest his corrupt entring into and his continuance in the place for one yeare So the Pharisees a Generation that God never instituted their Schoole began some say two hundred and forty yeares some say more before Christ and for their Superstitious inventions they were not barren in them but did Christ so soon as he came to Preach call away the people and bid them separate here are corrupt Officers c. No we finde no such word nay he bids then heare Matth. 23. After Christ I pray tell me how long did the Churches continue without Superstitious mixtures I doubt you will finde the Church hath not been long free but we doe not finde separation presently and nulling of Ministers as now Men should doe well to give us a precept or example out of the Word where Ordinances have been dispensed true for the substance though some humane mixtures have been joyned to them that therefore they were iterated If they cannot give us a direct precept or example shew us it by a necessary consequence from Scripture I wonder men should be so forward to iterate Baptisme and Ordination as these Separatists call for without Scripturall grounds 9 There are hundreds of Ministers in England who were not Ordained by Bishops but you separate from those also they had the election of the people first then with fasting and prayer solemnly set apart to the worke by divers godly and learned Divines who were against Bishops yet these are also scorned by your selves as much as the others but forsooth because they were Ordained by Bishops and had not renounced their Ordination and taken their Ordination from you therefore that infection spreads even to all Generations Out of what I have said I may pick up some answers to this but for troubling the Reader and the truth is they are in some sence unreasonable men I deale with but this let me say it is strange that when an Ordinance is purged in it selfe and those who administer it renounce what defects have cleaved to their owne Ordination only for the substance owning it as another Ordinance may be corrupted or rather have corruptions annexed to it but not nulled by those accidentall corruptions that this infection should adhere so strongly that it cannot be mended but by nulling of it Friends this cavilling will not doe in the Day of Judgement Besides I pray give me an instance where it was ever practised that persons that were not Baptised did Ordaine a Minister If you aske me What need that question for we are Baptised therefore it doth not concerne us By whom I pray If you say by the Ministers
that though there be Officers in a Church yet the people may ordaine which I am sure those Divines who are for the peoples power in ordination will never admit being crosse to their owne Principles and Scripture 4 We finde in the eleventh verse that after that was done Aaron did wave these Levites before the Lord so that they were not compleat till Aaron had done his Act whence I remember learned Master Cotton in his discourse with me said the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there did but answer to the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the New Testament and Aarons waving of them did answer to our 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this clause only I remember but he had a larger answer which I tooke from him in discourse by which I remember he did enervate this Objection but I lost his notes with all my other helps in my shipwrack These men call for precept and example give you us one for this in the New Testament for you put us to that also we must give you them out of the New Testament yea Iwould goe further and desire them to give me one examplein the first six hundred yeares after Christ that ever the people did ordaine their Minister now this is strange to me that we can finde no foot-step of any such thing in the Scripture nor in the Ages next and yet that we should make it so frequent that they must ordaine most frequently for if every particular Church be Independent as now such a Church where I am in a small Village where the maintenance will not keep one Minister and therefore to be sure we cannot have more Ministers then if the Minister remove or dye if there come a new Minister the people must ever ordaine thus it must be in most places in England few will be excepted Iustin Mart. Apol 2 and if every new election must have a new ordination then it must alwayes be in the peoples power In the Primitive times there were Churches in Cities and Villages but that the Christians in Villages did ordaine their Officers I would gladly see that proved Ordination in those times was carried by a continued succession the Apostles ordained some Ministers those ordained others so downwards but never by the people Learned Dr. â—ell ener to 2. l. 3. c. 2. s 6 Ames seemes to answer this for whereas Bellarmine had said In novo Testamento ubicunque mentio fit manunm impositionis semper ea Apostolis caeterisque Episcapis nunquà m vero plebi tribuitur The Doctor answers to this In Historiâ novi Testamenti exempla babemus constitutionis Ministerii ejusdem etiam conservationis sed non restaurationis ejus aut reformationis post generalem Apostasiam omnia igitur quae pertinent ad plebem fidelem in tali casu non representantur ibi certis exemplis However these words seeme to carry it as if the Doctor did hold that the people had this power in a generall Apostasie yet I question whether the Doctor would looke upon the Churches of England now under such a notion neither would he deny the ordination of our Ministers to be valid for substance but yet here one might cast in something in times of Reformation it may be he saith 1 To Reforme the Minister is to Forme it now as it was first formed But the Ministry was not at first formed by the people ergo the Ministry cannot be now reformed by the people I thinke the Major will not be denyed for the Minor let any prove that According to this some will say We must have Apostles they formed the Ministers first we speake of ordination I say Non sequitur unlesse you can prove the Apostles ordained only quâ Apostles if so I know not how those Ministers whom the Apostles did ordaine could ordaine others but to be sure they did 2 I defire a text of Scripture that holds out this that the people may ordaine in a generall Apostasie 3 I doubt we shall rarely finde such times when there is a Society of godly Christians to ordaine but there is some Ministers also ordinarily there are Ministers who teach this people 4 It will be a question Whether the Apostasie hath been such as to require this for if Baptisme was not repeated but was thought valid though administred by a Romish Minister because he was set apart to the worke and kept the essence of the ordinance why might not the ordination administred by those Ministers hold as well 2 A second ground that makes me doubt is this it seemes strange to me that Christ should appoint extraordinary officers and make that a part of their work which the people themselves may doe Paul leaves Titus to ordaine but what needs that the people might well say what need Paul leave Titus to do that which we can doe our selves Frustra fit per plura c. the Apostles never needed but to preach and convert the people to the faith when they had done so they should have said we have now done our worke brought you to be beleevers you may now elect an Officer and ordaine him your selves the power is yours onely here would have been some trouble about baptizing since then I finde that this was part of thier Office then I cannot beleeve this is the peoples worke Paul might easily have left us a president in some Society of Christians that would have quieted all our disputes More might be said and is said by others but I see our New England Divines do almost yeeld it by giving power to some Ministers to ordaine in other Congregations Since nothing can be drawn from Scripture by precept or example to prove this hence some would draw it out by Argument Those who can do the greater may doe the lesse The people can doe the greater viz. elect Ergo The minor is as freely denyed as it is affirmed election is not the greater Scripture-light being judge That was the designe I doubt of making Ordination but an Adjunct for so indeed it would easily bee granted if election gives the essence and this only be an adjunct the people may well ordaine Yea and in a Church where there are Officers to Ordaine I know not why they who give the essence may not give the adjunct why should an adjunct be proper to the Officers only in that Church when the essence doth not belong to them Mr. N. W. Omnis quaestio non per aliud quod quaeritur babebit resolutionem nec ambiguitas per ambiguitatem sed ex elaris manifestis c. Irenae l. 2. c. 10. further then as members they joyne with the people for so it seemes the Officers elect as members and if you doe elect only as members why should you not also ordaine as members for election is the greater this the lesse The other Argument is the people are the first subject of the power of the keyes Ergo But this is not easily yeelded it was a