churche is not able to fynde a Curate as he termeth hym and a Deacon I haue before shewed intreatyng of the Seniors that the churches in the Apostles tymes myght best haue sayd this beyng poore and persecuted although I see not why the churche may not haue a Deacon or Deacons if mo be needefull with as small charges as they may haue a collector or collectors Io. Whitgifte It is the Admonition that sayeth Euery paryshe cannot be at that caste to haue bothe Wherevpon I doe but aske this question why they require them both in euery paryshe if euerye paryshe cannot bee at the coste to haue them both Bylike you make small accompte of the Admonition in that you read it not or else you haue forgotten that this question is demaunded vpon their confession But in deede I am of that opinion too and haue before answered your obiection of the Churches in the Apostles tymes as for our Collectors they be suche as put not the Churche to one halfepenye charge so could not your Deacons do Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision Admonition For they (u) Pontifi tit The ordring of deacons may baptise in the presence of a Byshop or priest or in their absence if necessitie so requyre minister the other Sacrament lykewyse reade the holy Scriptures and homilies in the congregation instructe the youth in the Catechisme and also preache if he be commaunded by the Byshop Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 119. Sect. 2. I knowe not what you meane by your Ponti tit in the margent of your booke but if you meane the booke entituled the forme and māner of making and consecrating Byshops c. nowe allowed in this Churche of Englande then do you vntruely reporte it for there is no mention of baptising in the presence of a Bishop or Priest neyther yet of ministring the other Sacramente in their absence if necessitie require onely the booke sayeth that a Deacon may baptise or preache if he be thervnto admitted by the Byshop and that he may so doe by the worde of God I haue proued before As for reading the holye Scriptures and Homelies in the Congregation also for instructing the youth in the Catechisme who doubteth but that a Deacon may doe them Admonition The Deaconshyp (y) 1. Tim. 3. 8. must not be confounded with the ministerie nor the Collectours for the poore may not vsurpe the Deacons office but he that hath an (z) Rom. 12. 7. 1. Cor. 7. 20 office must looke to his office and euery man must keepe hymselfe within the bondes and limites of his owne vocation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 126. Sect. 2. Neither doe we confounde them and yet Paule in the place by you quoted in the margent speaketh not one worde of confounding or not confounding these offices So the poore be prouided for it forceth not whether prouision be made by Deacons or by Collectours by the one it may be well done by the other it cannot be done in all places as the state is nowe But shew any Scripture to proue that the poore must onely be prouided for by Deacons else not Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this ¶ Of the offices of Widowes and their continuance Chap. 2. T. C. Pag. 153. Sect. 2. There remayneth to speake of the Widowes which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of three score yeares for the auoyding of all suspition of euill whiche myght ryse y sclaunderous tongues it they had bene yonger These as they were nouryshed at the charges of the churche being poore so did they serue the churche in attending vpon poore straungers and the poore whiche were sicke in the churche whereof they were widowes (*) This will not agree with the doctrine you taught before Pag. 1. 41. Now although there is not so great vse of these widowes with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded and in that tyme wherein this order of widowes was instituted parte of the whiche necessitie grewe both by the multitude of straungers through the persecution and by the great heare of those easte countryes wherevpon the washing and supplyng of their feete was required yet to so muche as there are poore which are sicke in euery churche I do not see howe a better and more conuenient order can be deuised for the attendaunce of them in their syckenesse and other infirmities than this which sainct Paule apoynteth that there should be if there can bee any gotten godly poore widowes of y e age which S. Paule apointeth which should attend vpon such For it there be any such poore wydowes of that age destitute of all frendes it is manifest that she must needes iyue of the charge of the churche and seing she must needes doe so it is better she should doe some duty for it vnto the churche agayne than the churche should be at a newe charge to fynde others to attende vpon those which are sycke and destitute of kepers seing that there can be none so fitte for that purpose as those women which saynt Paule doth there describe so that I conclude that (*) This condition cānot agree with so precise cōmaundement as you haue made it before if such may be gotten we ought also to keepe that order of widowes in the churche styll I knowe that there be learned men which thinke otherwyse but I stande vpon the authoritie of Gods worde and not vpon the opinions of men be they neuer so wel learned and if the matter also should be tried by the iudgement of men I am able to shewe the iudgement of as learned as this age hath brought forth which thinketh that the institution of widowes is perpetuall and ought to bee where it may be had and where such widowes are founde Indeede they are more rare nowe than in the Apostles tymes For then by reason of the persecution those whiche had the gifte of continencie did abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were dryuen to flye than the estate of those which were maryed Io. Whitgifte Here you are taken in your owne trappe and fayne you would wrynge your The Replie tripped and caught in his owne nette Pag. 141. selfe out if you could tell which waye for if all thinges conteyned in S. Paule his first Epistle to Timothie bee perpetuall and must be kept vnder the great charge that be gaue vnto Timothie in the sixt chapter as you haue before affirmed then of necessitie the churche must needes still reteyne wydowes You knowe not in the worlde howe to auoyde this absurditie and therefore some tymes you saye that nowe there is not so great vse of them with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded c. and by and by you beginne to call that backe and saye that you do not see howe a better and more conuenient
I were a Lawyer I could tell you that this law admitteth many exceptions What is more expedient for all men than to haue a good Prince good Councellors good Iudges c. and yet I thinke it were moste pernicious to haue those offices committed to the election of the people But what néede I stryue with you in this matter For if those things that be concluded by Parliament be by the consent of the moste parte of the Realme bicause the peoples consent is there in their knightes of their shires and other Burgeses as in déede it is whiche you also confesse then haue you no more to saye in this matter for the booke of ordering Ministers and Deacons c. is allowed and graunted by Parliament and therefore the Bishops and Ministers of this Churche of England are chosen by the consent of the people nay which is more of the whole Realme bicause they are ordeyned and chosen according to that order and rule whiche the whole realme in Parliament hath made and bounde them selues vnto But by the way if this grounde of lawe be good in that sense that you alleage it and be transferred to the ciuill state it will be founde very daungerous and tootoo muche sauouring of popularitie as in déede the whole course of your doctrine is Chapter 5. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. So is it also when the question is to choose the Magistrate Mayre or Bayliffe or Constable of euery towne whiche things if they haue groundes in ciuill affayres they haue muche better in Ecclesiasticall For it is muche more vnreasonable that there shoulde be thrust vpon me a gouernour of whome the euerlasting saluation or damnation bothe of my body and soule dothe depende than him of whome my wealth and commoditie of this lyfe dothe hang. Unlesse those vpon whome he were thrust were fooles or madde men or children without all discretion of ordering themselues whiche as I will shewe can not agree with those that are the Churche of God and are to haue a Pastor For they of the Churche of God althoughe they be called sheepe in respect of their simplicitie and harmlesnesse yet are they also for their circumspection wise as serpentes in the wisedome especially whiche is to saluation and howe (a) No man keth vi e a ouÌ„t of the people of God but you partly of 〈◊〉 partly of popular affection would haue it seeme so thereby to 〈◊〉 hatred agaynst vs. vyle accompte soeuer you will make of them they are the people of God and therefore spirituall and foorthwith those of whome sainct 1. Cor. 2. Paule sayth the spirituall man discerneth all things Io. Whitgifte The disorder of suche popular elections hathe bin suche the contentions moued Elections by the multituâ—e are for y e most parte tumultuous in them so great the ambition of the persons standing in election so notorious the partiall affection of the people inclining to their kinsfolkes friendes or landlords c. so vntollerable to be short the lacke of iudgement discretion in many of them so apparant that that maner of electing vpon great coÌ„siderations hath bin altred in diuers places desired to be altered in others also by al those that are wise discrete that wishe for quietnesse good gouernment Neither is it true that the election of those officers which you name is euery where in the people In the best ordered Cities and townes it is otherwise and experience dothe teache that those offices whiche are in the Princes bestowing and some other to whome she committeth the same are the best bestowed and vpon the moste worthyest persons as Bishoprikes the offices of Iudges Iustices c. In ecclesiasticall affayres it is muche méeter that suche as haue knowledge zeale and care for the people shoulde place ouer them a méete and fitte Pastor than that the choyse of him should be committed to the multitude whiche is not onely for the moste parte ignorant but carelesse in suche matters yea and oftentimes euill disposed and commonly led by affection as friendship hatred feare c. I knowe that Christian men are not called sheepe bycause they be voyde of reason ChristiaÌ„ men eepe For as Chrysostome saythe Oues sunt sed rationales They are sheepe but suche as are indued with reason And god dothe at one tyme or other if they be his open hys truthe vnto them and indueth them with the spirite of discerning betwixte true and false doctrine in those things that doe pertayne to their saluation But bicause God dothe in his good time open his truthe vnto them are they therfore alwayes voyde of affection and errour or bicause some haue this spirite of discretion is it therefore common to all or to the moste parte In déede if you speake of the inuisible Church which is onely of the electe then is it something that you say but if you speake of the visible Churche whiche is a mixture of good and euill and wherein the euill are the greater number then hath your saying no probabilitie in it And why may not the Pope as well reason of this place 1. Cor. 2. that he can not erre in matters of religion Scripture vn aptly alleaged by T. C. as you may that Parishes can not be deceyued in electing their pastors for he dothe alleage this texte for himselfe to the same purpose but the meaning of the Apostle is this that he onely whiche is ruled and gouerned by the spirite of God hath the true knowledge of the mysteries of God and is able to discerne the truthe from falshood You can no more proue therefore by this sentence that the Parishes can not erre in choosing their Pastors than the Pope may doe that himselfe generall Councels and the Churche can not erre and surely the more I consider the matter the more I maruell what your meaning is in alleaging this texts Chapter 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 2. Moreouer reason and experience teacheth that it maketh much to the profiting of the Church vnder the hande of the Pastor or Bishop that the Churche loue him and reuerence him For the contempte and hatred of the minister for the moste parte standeth not in his owne person but reacheth euen vnto the doctrine which he teacheth But the Minister that the Churche desireth it commonly best loueth and moste reuerenceth and of the other side hateth and contemneth him that is thrust vpon them therefore it maketh muche to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the Gospell that the minister come in by their consent Likewise the people muste by S. Paule hys 1. Tim. 4. rule followe the good example of the Minister but men wyll not likely followe their examples whome they loue not nor loue them which are thrust vpon them agaynst their willes Therefore it standeth with the good conuersation and godly following of the steppes of the minister that he be with the consent of the
all learned men both liuing dead They may well be sayde to haue sealed this booke wyth their bloud How they sea led the booke with their bloud bicause they were martyred for that religion that is conteyned in this booke and according to the which this booke was framed and if they were condemned for improuing the articles drawne out of the Masse booke ▪ as you say why maye it not be likewise affirmed that they receyued the sentence of condemnation for approuing the Articles conteyned in the Communion booke I know the booke they dyed for was the booke of God yet did not the aduersarie pretende that but the articles drawne out of this and suche like bookes grounded vpon the worde and booke of God Name one of them who at the time of his death or in y e time of his imprisonmēt declared openly his misliking of certayne things in this booke I can shew you the contrarie That notable vessell of God for learning zeale and vertue inferiour to none of our M. Ridleys testimonie of the booke of cōmon prayer age Master Ridley Bishop of London in his last farewell as it is called looking dayly and hourely when he should go to the stake giueth this testimonie of this same booke of common prayers the whiche the Churche of Englande nowe vseth and you so contemptuously reiect This Churche sayth he of Englande had of late of the M. Foxe infinite goodnesse and abundant grace of almightie God great substance great riches of heauenly treasure plentie of Gods true and sincere worde the true and vvholsome administration of Christes holy sacraments the whole profession of Christes religion truely and playnely set foorth in baptisme the playne declaration and vnderstanding of the same taught in the holy ▪ Catechisme to haue bin learned of all true Christians This Church had also a true and sincere forme and maner of the Lords supper wherin according to Iesus Christes ordināce holy institution Christes cōmaundements were executed and done For vpon the bread and wine set vpon the Lords table thāks were giuen the commemoration of the Lords death was had the bread in the remembrance of Christes body torne vpon the crosse was broken and the cuppe in remembrance of Christes bloud was distributed and both communicated vnto all that were present and woulde receyue them and also they were exhorted of the minister so to do All was done openly in the vulgare tongue so that euery thing mighte be bothe easily heard and playnely vnderstoode of all the people to Gods high glory and the edification of the whole Church This Church had of late the whole diuine seruice all common and publike prayers ordeyned to be sayde and heard in the common congregarion not onely formed and fashioned to the true vayne of the holy Scripture but also set foorth according to the commaundement of the Lorde and S. Paules doctrine for the peoples edification in their vulgar tongue But I knowe his testimonie shall weigh with you as all other mens doe howbeit I trust it will pearce the hearts of the godly Neyther is this to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God when the martyrdome of men is brought into beare witnesse vnto the truthe of God Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. vlt. 150. Sect. 1. 2. The vnperfectnesse of this booke and such things in the fame as be culled and picked out of that popishe dunghill the Masse booke with the contents therein that be agaynst the worde of God shall appeare I am sure in your seuerall reasons for it is not sufficient for you barely to saye so without witte learning or reason This you know right wel that in so saying you make the Papists Aduantage gi uen to the papistes by the Admonitours leape for ioye bicause they haue gotten suche companions to assaulte this booke whylest they rest them lye as it were in sleepe O that the wyse men of this realme suche I meane as be in authoritie see not this Popishe practise and seeke not with more earnestnesse to preuent it Will ye suffer the Papists to gather strength and to multiplie by tollerating such Libellers vnder the pretēce of reformatiō to discredite so muche as lyeth in them yea to ouerthrow the whole state and substance of religion in this Churche Bee not secure but watche and remember the beginning and encrease of the Anabaptistes of late in Germanie whiche I haue described in my Preface to this booke You saye that you can not but much maruell at the craftie wilynesse of those men whose partes it had beene first to haue proued eache and euery content therin to be agreable to Gods word c. Nay surely but it were your parts rather to proue The apponēt must proue by rules of Logike that there is something therein contrarie or not agreable to Gods worde For such as be learned and knowe the manner of reasoning say that the Opponent must proue or improue and not the answerer They stande to the defense and mayntenance of the booke you seeke to ouerthrowe it it is your partes therfore to iustifie your assertions by reasons and arguments T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. For the Papistes triumphe I haue answered before and I will not striue about the Goates 〈◊〉 who is the apponent and who the respondent in this difference Io. Whitgifte Thus you passe all this ouer in silence for I doe not remember where you haue answered one worde to it Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition They should first proue by the worde of God that a reading seruice going before and with the administration of the sacraments is according to the worde of God that wafer cakes for theyr bread when they minister it surplesse and cope to doe it in churching of women comming in vayles abuong the Psalme to hir I haue lifted vp mine eyes vnto the hilles c. and suche other Psal. 120. foolishe things are agreable to the written worde of the almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 151. Sect. 2. 152. Sect 1. I doe not well vnderstande your meaning would you haue vs to proue that to reade prayers before and with the administration of The order of prayers in the Communion booke agreable to y e scripture the sacraments is according to the worde of God In deede in the booke of seruice there is first appoynted to be read some one or two profitable sentences mouing eyther to prayer or to repentance after followeth a generall confession then the Lords prayer and certayne Psalmes nexte certayne chapters out of the olde and newe Testamente c. laste of all the administration of the sacramente If you aske me of the sentences they be scripture If of the Lordes prayer Psalmes and chapters they be scripture also If of the sacrament of the Supper it is according to scripture Matth. 26. Marke 14. Luke 22. 1. Cor. 11. If of
is no néede or a more vehement purgation than is conuenient for the disease or minister it out of time or giue one purgation for an other c. what rumbling and stirre soeuer follow in the bodye he may be iustly sayde to be the author and cause of them Do you not knowe what Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiast speaking of Anabaptistes If they were sente of God Zuinglius i Ecclesi st Id m de bapti mo and endued with the spirite of loue they would haue construed in the beste parte those externall things c. And againe Christe neuer made any contention for externall thinges and in his booke de Baptismo They go aboute innouations of their owne priuate authoritie c. I vse M. Caluines iudgement as I vse the iudgement of other learned men neyther will I refuse any learned mans opinion in these controuersies that truly and wholly vnderstandeth the state of this Church and the grounde of all thinges vsed in it But I doubt how you will hereafter stand to this offer ¶ The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag 29. Sect. 5. 6. Of the same iudgement in this matter is M. Bucer as it appeareth Bucer of things indifferent in his Epistle to M. Alasco these be his wordes If you vvill not admit such libertie and vse of vesture to this pure and holie Church bycause they haue no commaundement of the Lord nor example of it I doo not see hovv you can graunt to any Church that it may celebrate the Lordes Supper in the morning and in an open Churche especially consecrated to the Lorde that the Sacrament may be distributed to men kneeling or standing yea to vvomen as vvell as to men For vvee haue receiued of these things neither commaundement of the Lorde nor any example yea rather the Lorde gaue a contrarie example For in the euening and in a priuate house he did make his Supper and distributed the Sacramentes and that to men only and sitting at the table Haec Bucerus But to ende this matter is it not as lawfull for a godlie Prince with the aduise and consent of godlie and lerned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church and lawes Ecclesiasticall as it is for euery priuate man to vse what maner and forme of seruice he list and other order aud discipline in his own parish which these men seeke and striue to doe T. C. Page 20. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Pag. 21. Sect. 1. And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late writers by citing of whome you woulde gyue to vnderstande that they are agaynste vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter ende of this booke their seuerall iudgements of the moste of these thinges whiche are in controuersie whereby it maye appeare that if they haue spoken one woorde agaynste vs they haue You do learned mē great iniury in accusing thē of contrarietie spoken two for vs. And whereas they haue written as it is said and alieadged in their priuate letters to their friends agaynst some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their works published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So that if they wrote any such things they shall be found not so much to haue dissented from vs as from themselues and therefore we appeale from themselues vnto themselues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike writings as more autenticall You laboure still in the fire that is vnprofitable to bring M. Bucer his Epistle to proue that the Church may order thinges whereof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neyther is this saying that all things are to be done in the Church according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto this that the Church may ordeyne certayne things according to the word of God But if this Epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the booke of common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as (1) You cannot but vnderstand that they are printed I cannot vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniury which go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them whiche we can neyther heare nor see being kepte close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouertie and nakednesse of it being fame to ransacke and ruffle vp euery darke corner to find something to couer it with Therefore it were good before you tooke any benefyte of them to let them come foorthe and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and full out For now you giue men occasion to thinke that there are some other thinges in their Epistles whiche you would be loth the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is (2) What say you than to the. 14. reason of the Admonition then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers c. no man that sayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the Churche where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no man seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hathe left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other things to vse that which shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the Church aud confirmed by the prince And wheras you haue euer hitherto giuen the ordering of these things to the Church how come you now to (3) An vn truth for I gyue it not to the Byshops only but to a godly Prince with the aduice and consent of godly and learned Byshops and other of the wisest ascribe it to the Byshops you meane I am sure the Byshops as we call Byshops here in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the Papists vnawares whiche when they haue spoken many things of the Churche inagnifically at the last they bring it now to the doctours of the Church now to Byshops As for me although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Byshops and very learned also and therefore very meete to be admitted into that consultation whereinit shall be considered what things are good in the Church yet in respect of that office and calling of a Byshop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister and pastour of the Churche hath more interest and righte in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any Byshop or Archbishop in the Realme for as much as he hath an ordinarie calling of God and function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how this authoritie perteyning to the
of doctrine by many deliuered is sounde and good yet herein it fayleth that neither the Ministers thereof are accordyng to Gods worde proued elected called or ordained nor the function in such sorte so narrowly loked vnto as of right it ought and is of necessitie required Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 34. 35. The proposition that these libellers woulde proue is that we in Englande are so farre from hauyng a Churche rightly reformed accordyng to the prescripte of Gods worde that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For proofe hereof they vse this argnment There be three out warde markes whereby a true Christian Churche is knowen preaching of the worde purely ministryng of the Sacramentes sincerely and ecclesiasticall discipline whiche consisteth in Admonition and correction of faultes seuerely But thys Church of Englande for so in effecte they saye is voyde of all these Ergo it hath not so much as the externall face of a Church To proue that the worde of God is not preached truely they reason on thys sort The Ministers of the worde are not according to gods worde proued elected called or ordeyned nor the function in suche sort so narrowly loked vnto as of right it ought is of necessitie required And therfore the word of God not truely preached Here All pointes of doctrine pure in this church thankes be to God they alleage not one article of Faith or poynte of doctrine nor one peece of any substance to be otherwise taughte and allowed of in thys Churche for not euery mannes folly is to be ascribed to the whole Churche than by the prescripte worde of God may be iustified neyther can they Nowe howe this conclusion followeth though the antecedent were true let those iudge that be learned The Ministers are not rightly proued and elected c. An vnapt r son Ergo the worde of God is not truely preached howe wicked so euer the man is howsoeuer he intrude hymselfe into the ministerie yet maye he preache the true worde of God For the truthe of the doctrine dothe not in anye respecte depende vpon the goodnesse or euilnesse of the man I praye you howe were you and some other of your adherentes called elected c But to come to the purpose They woulde proue that the Ministers of the worde in this Church of Englande are not accordyng to gods worde proued elected called or ordeyned What force and pithe is in their argumentes shall appeare in the seuerall answeres to euery one of them This one thing I muste let you vnderstande that these men seeke to deface thys Churche of Englande by the selfe same groundes that the Papistes doe althoughe by another kynde of proofe For what haue the Papistes else to saye but that we haue no Ministers bycause they be not rightly called and so consequently no worde no Sacramentes no discipline no Churche And certainely if it were well examyned I beleeue it woulde fall oute that the Authors of this Booke haue conspired with the Papistes to ouerthrowe if they coulde the state both of this Churche and Realme howsoeuer subtilly they seeme to detest Papistrie T. C. Page 23. Sect. 1 2 3. (a) Where do I 〈◊〉 that they say so Where in effecte doe they saye that the Churche of Englande is voyde of preachyng ▪ and ministring of the Sacramentes is it all one to saye that the worde in the Churche of Englande is not purely preached and the Sacramentes sincerely and discipline seuerely administred wyth thys that the Churche of Englande is voyde of all these Agayne where doe they reason thus that the worde of GOD is not truely preached bycause the Ministers are not ryghtly proued and elected when as they haue not one worde of true preachyng Is it all one to saye it is not purely preached and to saye it is not truely preached Saynte Paule to the A cauill Philipp is gladde that the Gospell be preached althoughe it be not purely but he woulde neuer haue been gladde that it should haue been preached falsely or not truely Againe he inueygheth not agaynst the false Apostles in the Churche of Corinthe bycause they preached the worde vntruely but bycause they vsyng paynted words and affected eloquence and makyng a great shewe of learnyng and tounges dyd not preache the Gospell sincerely so that you see that it is one thyng not to preache truely and an other thing not to preache purely and so you see their reason is not so euill for the want of a good calling maye gyue occasion to saye that the worde of God is not sincerely taughte bycause there is not a lawfull and ordinarie calling For althoughe for the substaunce of doctrine and the manner of handlyng of it they that Sainte Paule speaketh to of the Philipp dyd not faulte yet Saynt Paule sayth that they dyd not preache purely bycause they dyd it of contention or of enuie whyche was no faulte in the doctrine but in hym that taughte Therefore let men iudge howe iuste your wayghtes are that expounde not purely not truely and whyther thys be to confute other mens argumentes rather than to skirmishe wyth your owne shadowes I knowe no Papistes reason thus that bycause we haue no Ministers therefore no worde no Sacrament no discipline no Churche For they denie that we haue the worde or Sacramentes bycause we holde not their worde and sacrifice but if there be that so reason yet these men that you charge haue neither any such antecedent or such a consequent For they neuer sayde that there is no Ministerie in England nor yet do euer conclude that there is no word no sacraments no discipline nor Churche For in saying that the face of the Churche dothe not so muche appeare for so the whole proces of their booke dothe declare that they meane when they say that we haue not scarce the face of the Churche they graunte that we haue the Churche of God but that for wante of those ornamentes whiche it shoulde haue and throughe certayne the deformed ragges of Poperie whiche it shoulde not haue the Churche dothe not appeare in hir natiue colours and so beautifull as it is meete she shoulde be prepared to so glorious a husbande as is the sonne of God Say you certaynely and do you beleeue that the authors of this booke are conspired with the Papistes to ouerthrowe this Churche and Realme Nowe certaynely I will neuer doe that iniurie vnto them as once to goe about to purge them of so manyfest slaunders nor neuer be broughte by the outrage of your speeches to proue that nooneday is not mydnight and therefore as for you I will set your conscience and you togither The reader I will desire not to thinke it a straunge thing for it is no other than hath happened to the seruaunts of God euen from those which haue professed the same religion whiche they dyd as it appeareth in the. 37. of Ieremie whiche was accused of certayne of the Israelites
that he had conspired with the Babilonians their mortall enimyes and layd to his charge that he was goyng to them when he was going to Beniamin Io. Whitgifte Who is so blynde as he that will not sée Doe they not in plaine wordes saye That the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian Churche is knowen are preaching of the worde purely ministring the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline c Is not their whole drifte in the Admonition to proue That neither the worde is preached purely nor the Sacramentes sincerely ministred c. in this Chnrche of Englande and what doe T. C. willuigly peruerteth the words of y e Answere I otherwyse reporte of them be not my wordes playne where doe I affirme that they shoulde saye that the Churche of Englande is voyde of preaching and ministring the Sacramentes But let the Reader consider my wordes and accordingly iudge of your plaine dealing Where I write y t they in effect say the Church of England is voyde of these I am sure you will referre these to that whiche went before that is preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and ecclesiasticall discipline c. neither can you otherwise doe thoughe you woulde wrest my wordes neuer so violently and therefore that which I reporte of them is that they say this Church of England neither hath the worde purely preached nor the sacramentes sincerely ministred c. I make no greate difference betwixte purely and truely neyther dothe it followe Purely and truely that the worde of God is truely preached alwayes when the truth is preached For as a man maye doe Iusta not Iustè lust thyngs and yet not iustly so maye the truthe be preached and yet not truely A man maye doe that whiche is iuste vnwittingly or for gayne or for pleasure or for malice but then he dothe it not iustly Quid non ex babitu animo Euen so a man maye preache the true worde of God of affection of contention ambition for profite c. but then he dothe not preache it truely So that your distinction betwixt purely and truely is to no purpose Neyther dothe Saint Paule helpe you anye thyng at all but is cleane centrarye 1. Phi. vers 18. vnto you for in the ▪ 18. verse of the firste Chapter to the Philip. these be hys wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ c. whych in the Bible Printed at Geneua is thus translated VVhat then yet Christe is preached all manner wayes whether it be vnder a pretence or sincerely So you sée that there is no difference made betwixte sincerely and truely for the Greeke worde signifyeth truely And Maister Beza in hys notes vpon the same Chapter and. 16. verse expoundyng 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not purely saythe thus Non pu o scilicet animo quùm alio qui pura Beza esset doctrina to weete not wyth a pure mynde seeyng that otherwyse the doctrine is pure so that these aduerbes purely and truely in this place are referred not to the doctrine but to mynde of hym that teacheth ▪ I woulde wyshe that bothe you and others woulde cease from drawyng the Scriptures to youre phantasyes and affections That this is one reason of the Papistes to proue that we are not the Churche bycause we haue no true ministerie I maruell you can be ignorant séeyng there is nothing oft er in their mouthes Whether the authors of the Admonition reason in lyke manner or no tell me when you haue well consydered these wordes of theirs in the Epistle to the Reader Eyther must we haue a right-ministery of God and a ryghte gouernment of hys Churche accordyng to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or eise there can be no ryghte Religion Likewise when you haue wythoute parcialitie viewed the reste of their booke Truely I thinke him to be more than blynde that séeth not thys to be theyr kynde of reasoning Their meanyng is playne and the seconde Admonition maketh it plainer howsoeuer you woulde séeme to colour and cloake the matter for what other meanyng can it haue to saye that we haue no ryghte ▪ Religion and to speake so bitterly agaynst the whole forme of the Churche and the moste of suche things as be in the same I doe beléeue certaynely that there is some Papisticall practitioners among you neyther is it straunge for so conspired they wyth the Anabaptistes also as I haue declared and the Anabaptistes hated them as muche as you and pretended the sunplicitie of the worde of God as muche as you and bothe in pretence of zeale of puritie of lyfe and other qualities for the moste parte were equall vnto you And thoughe the Prophete Ieremie were vniustly accused yet doth not that improue any thing that I haue sayde for they are not the Prophete Ieremye neither in person office or cause neither yet haue I accused them vniustly in any thing Of the election of Ministers Tract 3. Of the triall of Ministers both in learnyng and conuersation Chap. 1. the first diuision Admonition The first is this For whereas in the olde Church atrial was had (l) Acts. 1. 11. Acts. 6. 3. 1. Tim. 3. 7. 8. Tit. 1 6. both of their abilitie to enstruct and of their godly conuersation also nowe by the letters commendatorie of some one man noble or other tag and rag learned and vnlearned of the basest (m) 1. Re. 12. 31. sorte of the people to the slaunder of the Gospell in the (n) Rom. 2. 14. mouthes of the aduersaries are freely receiued Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 36. It it true that in the olde Church tryall was had of their abilitie to instruct and of their godly conuersation But the place in the margent alleaged out of the firste Chapter of the Actes of the Apostles maketh nothing for that purpose beyng therein no mention at all of any tryall made eyther of learning or maners but onely of presenting two and of praying and casting of lottes And M. Clauine in his Institutions sayth plainely that out of this place of the Actes and example there can be no certaine rule gathered of electing and chosing Ministers for as that ministerie was extraordinarie so was the calling also Reade M. Caluine and you shall soone see how little this place so ofte in the margent quoted maketh for that purpose for the which it is quoted T. C. Pag. 23. Sect. 4. 5. Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. It maketh for the purpose which is alleaged out of the firste of the Actes to proue that there ought to be tryall of those which are chofen to the ministerie for when S. Peter sayth that such a one must be chosen as hath bene continually conuersant with our sauiour Christ and from the beginning of his preaching vntill the day wherin he ascended into heauen he ment nothing (a) Surelye that was not so much ment as that he might be a fitte witnesse of the doyngs of
be obserued c. And M. Foxe tom 1. Pag. 12. reporting these two Canons sayth thus First in the Councell of M. Foxe Nice which was the yeare of our Lorde 340. and in the sixt Canon of the sayde Councell we finde it is so decreed that in euery Prouince or Precinct some one Church Byshop of the same was appoynted set vp to haue the inspection regiment of other Churches about him Secundum morem antiquum that is after the auncient custome as the wordes of the Councell do purport So that the Byshop of Alexandria shoulde haue power of Libia and Pentapolis in Egipt for as much as the Byshop of the Citie of Rome hath the like or same manner Nowe if I might as safely alleage the Canons of the Apostles as you doe then coulde I tell you that in the. 33. Canon which Canon is alleaged as good authoritie against the supremacie of the Byshop of Rome you shall finde Archbyshops For that Canon setting an order among Bishops willeth the Byshops of euery nation to knowe their first or chiefe Byshop and him to be taken for the head of them The wordes of the Canon be these Cuiusque gentis Episcopos oportet sc re quisnam Cano. Apo. 33. alias 35. inter ipsos primus sit habereque ipsum quodammodo pro capite neque sine illius voluntate quicquam agere insolitum The Bishops of euery countrie must knowe who is chiefe among them and must take him as it were for their head neyther muste they doe any vnaccustomed thing without his will and euery one must doe those things alone by him selfe which belong to his parishe and to the places that be vnder him But neither must he do any thing without the will of all them for so shall concorde be kept and God shall be glorified through our Lord in the holy Ghost Now I pray you tell me what difference there is betwixt the first or chiefe Byshop or head of the reste and Archbyshop And least you shoulde thinke this Canon to be of small force as suspected you shall heare it almost verbatim repeated and confirmed by the Councell of Antioche In euery countrey it is conuenient that Concil Antioc Can. 9. the Byshops should knowe that their Metropolitane Byshop beareth the care of the whole Prouince VVherefore let all those that haue any businesse repaire to the Metropolitane citie And for this cause it is thought good that he both shoulde excell in honour and that the other Bishops do no vnaccustomed thing without him according to the auncient rule appointed of our fathers sauing those things onely which belong to their owne Diocesse and to the places that are vnder them For euery Byshop hath power ouer his owne parishe to rule them according to reuerence meete for euerye one and to prouide for all the countrey that are vnder his citie so that he ordeyne both Priests and Deacons and conteine all things with his iudgement But further let him attempt nothing without the Metropolitane neither let the Metropolitane do any thing without the aduise of the other You haue now the Canon of the Apostles confirming Archbyshops and the Councell of Nyce Antioche alleaging olde custome for them and confirming them also And a little before In the. 7. Diuision before I declared vnto you out of M. Foxe that there were Archbyshops here in England Anno. 180. So that their fall cannot be very great Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. What no mention of him in Theophilus Bishop of Antioche none in Ignatius none in Clemens Alexandrinus none in Iustine Martyr in Ireneus in Tertullian in Origine in Cyprian none in all those olde Historiographers oute of the which Eusebius gathereth his storie was it for his basenesse and smalnesse that he coulde not be seene among the Byshops Elders and Deacons beyng the chiefe and principall of them all Can the Cedar of Libanon be hyd among y e Boxe trees Aristotle in his Rhethoricke ad Theodecten sayth that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other Belike therefore if there were any Archbyshop he had no chaire in the Churche but was as it seemeth digging at the metalles for otherwyse they that haue filled their booke with the often mentioning of Byshops would haue no doubt remembred him Io. Whitgifte And what then is not the Councell of Nice and of Antioche of as good credite as all these Shall not Athanasius Epiphanius Ambrose Hierome Chrysostome Sozomene c. counteruaile them and yet if you had read these authors you might haue learned that in the most of them the office of an Archbyshop is expressed as my answere following declareth But still you vse negatiue reasons ab authoritate and that humane Your tauntes and frumpes I let passe they are confutation sufficient to them selues Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Sect. 3. 4. But let vs heare what the Councell of Nyce hath for these titles In the sixth Canon mention is made of a Metropolitane Byshop what is that to the Metropolitane which nowe is eyther to the name or to the office Of the office it shall appeare afterwardes In the name I thinke there is a great difference betwene a Metropolitane Byshop and Metropolitane of England or of all England A Metropolitane Byshop was nothing else but a Byshop of that place which it pleased the Emperor or Magistrate to make the chiefe citie of the Diocesse or shire aad as for this name (*) An vntruth contrarie to the manifest wordes of the Councell of Nice it maketh no more difference betwene Byshop and Byshop than when I say a Minister of London and a Minister of Nuington There is no man that is well aduised which will gather of this saying that there is as great difference in preheminence betwene those two Ministers as is betwene London and Nuington For his office and preheminence we shall see hereafter Io. Whitgifte For the full answering of this it shall be sufficient to set downe the iudgement of certaine of the learned writers of our time touching the true meaning of that Canon The iudgement of learned writers of the. 6. can con N cem Caluine of the Councell of Nyce as the practise of the Church before that time at that tyme and since that time haue expounded it M. Caluine in his Institutions Chap. 8. Sect 54. sayth thus That euery prouince had among their Byshops an Archbyshop And that the Councel of Nice did appoynt Patriarkes which should be in order and dignitie aboue Archbyshops it was for the preseruation of discipline M. Caluine sayth the Councell of Nyce did appoint Patriarkes which shoulde be in order and dignitie aboue Archbyshops He sayth also that euery Prouince had among their Byshops an Archbyshop Il yricus in his cataloge testium veritatis speaking of this Councel sayth thus Constituit Illyricus quoque haec Synodus vt singularum
may verie wel sayle in their ships Chap. 2. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 72. Sect. 1. I can not tel whether you would abuse your reader here with the fallation of the accent bycause this worde great is so placed betwene Basile and Metropolitane that it may be as well referred to the Metropolitane as to Basill and so you hauing put no comma it seemeth you had as lieue haue your reader reade great Metropolitane as great Basil. But that the simpler sort be not deceyued therby it is not out of the way to let the reader vnderstande what a great Metropolitane this was whiche appeareth for that when he was threatned by the magistrate confiscation of his Sozom. 6. l. e. 16. goods answered that he was not afrayde of the threatnings and that all his goodes were a very fewe bookes and an olde gowne suche were then those Metropolitanes vnder whose shadowes M. Doctor goeth about to shroude all this pompe and princely magnificence of Archbishops Io. Whitgifte You search verie narowly when you misse not a comma but you knowe what nugator signifieth All men of learning can tell that Basile is in common speach called Basile the great And yet if he were called great Metropolitan the title might verie well agrée vnto him for he had large and ample iurisdiction being bishoppe of Cappadocia as Athanasius dothe also witnesse in his Epistle written to Palladius The contention is for the name and the office not for the ryches al houghe I thynke that there both are and haue bene Bishops in Englande as poore as Basile if they had en taken so soone after they were placed in theyr bishoprikes as Basile was nowe at this tyme. Chap. 2. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 72. Sect 2. 3. 4. As for Symeon Archbishop of Sele cia I will not denie but at that time was the name of Archbishops For then (*) An vnaduised answer Satan had made thorough the titles of Archbishops Pr ates and Patriarches as it were three staires wherby Antichrist might clyme vp into his cursed seate notwithstanding there wanted not good decrees of godlie councelles which did strike at these proude names and went aboute to keepe them downe But the swelling waters of the ambition of dyuers coulde not by any bankes be kept in which hauing once broken out in certaine places afterwardes couered almost the face of the whole earth This deuour of godly men may appeare in the Councell of Carthage which decreed that the Con. Car cap. 39. bishop of the fyrst seat shold not be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is eyther the chiefe of the priestes or the hyghe priest or any suche thing by whiche woordes any such thing he shutteth out the name of Archbishop and all such hau e titles The same decree also was made in the Africane councell and if you saye that it was made against Con. tom 1 cap. 6. the Pope of Rome or to forbidde that any man should be called Archbishoppe shewe me where ther was eyther bishop of Rome or any other that euer made any such title or chal nge to be the generall Bishop of all at that tyme when this councell of Carthage was holden when as the first of those which did make any su h chalenge was the bishop of Constantinople which notwithstanding (a) An vntruth chalenged not the preheminence first ouer all but that he might ordeyne bishops of Asia Pontus Thracia whiche were before appointed by theyr Synodes and this was in the councell of Chalcedon which was long after that councell of Carthage before remembred Io. Whitgifte It is before sufficiently declared that these names and offices were allowed and confirmed by the Councell of Nice and therefore not brought in by Satan Moreouer this Symeon Archbishop of Seleucia liued as it may appeare by most Chronicles aboute the tyme of the Councell of Nice and was martyred by Sapores the king of Persia. Which peraduenture if you had vnderstoode you woulde not haue burste oute into this heate of woordes for then might you haue made the same answere to Ambrose his authoritie which was long after him so kept secret your owne fond deuise The Councell of Carthage and also of Affrike was at that tyme wherein the Bishop of Rome by his Legates didde clayme the right of hearyng of appeales from whome soeuer they were made and for his purpose alleaged a counterfait Canon of the Councell of Nice Wherefore it is moste certayne that then th Bishop of Rome beganne at the leaste to clayme the super oritie ouer all Churches and to take vpon hym as it were the name of vniuersall Byshoppe and therfore this canon is made against him And that thys is true the Epistle of the Councell of Affrike written to Celestinus then Bishoppe of Rome declareth For after that they haue esyred hym that he woulde admit no suche appeales nor absolue such as they should excominunicate bycause that was to doe agaynst the decrées of the Councell of Nice and to abridge them of their iurisdiction and libertie they adde and saye Both bicause this priuiledge hath bin taken from the Church of Aphrike by no constitution of the fathers and also the decrees of the councell of Nice hath committed bothe the inferiour Clearkes and the Bishops themselues vnto their Metropolitanes for it was discretely and rightly consydered that all matters are to bee determined in the places where they began and that no prouince can lacke the grace of the holie ghost wherby the prieste of Christe may be hable both wisely to see and also constantly to mainteyn the right especially for that it is lawfull for euery man that shall mislike the discretion of the iudges to appeale either to particular councels within the same prouince or else to an vniuersal councell vnlesse perchaunce some man will thinke that God is able to inspire the triall of iustice into one man alone and will not inspire the same into a greate number of priests meeting togyther in Councell And how may such beyond sea iudgemente be thoughte good wherevnto the persons of the witnesses which in triall of truth are thought necessary either for that they be women or for the infirmitie of their age or for many other incident letts cannot be brought Now that any should be sent abroade as it were from your holinesse side we find it not decreed in any Councell And a little after And send you not any your Clerks hither to execute iustice at any mans request least we seeme to bring the smokie puffe of the world into the Church of Christ. c. Whereby it is plaine that they only prohibite that title of vniuersalitie and of generall iurisdiction that the Byshop of Rome now claymed and at that time began to claime ouer all Churches and not the names of superioritie due vnto any in their owne prouince For that perogatiue of iurisdiction ouer Byshops and other ministers they acknowledge to be due to
the vnitie of the Church is conserued not by hauing one Bishop ouer all but by the agreement of the Bishops one with another For so he writeth that the church is knit and coupled togither as it were with the giue of the Bishops consenting one with an other And as for the compounding of controuersies it is manyfest that it was not done by one Byshop in a prouince but those byshops whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang For speaking of the appeasing of controuersies schismes and shewing how dyuers Bishops Li. 1. epi. 4 were drawen into the heresy of Nouatus he sayth that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or anguished but that there was a portion of Priests which did not giue place vnto those rumes and shipwrackes of fayth And in another place he sayth therfore most deare brother the plentyfull body or company Li. 3. epi. 1 of the pr ests are as it were with the g ue of mutuall concorde and bande of vnitie ioyned togither that if any of our company be author of an heresy and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and mercyfull shepheards gather togither the sheepe of the Lorde Whereby it is many fest that the appeasing and composing of controuersies and heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one bishops hande but in as many as coulde conuemently assemble togither according to the daunger of the heresie which sprang or depe roote which it had taken or was like to take Io. Whitgifte The Bishops agrée not one whit the worse when they haue a superior by whom they may be called togither and put in minde of their office and duetie Neyther doth Cyprian deny this when he affirmeth the other For thoughe the chiefe cause of vnitie is the consente and agreement of the Bishops one with another yet to haue one that shall haue the chiefe care thereof must néedes be a great helpe thervnto euen as it is in other societies For if the Bishops were deuided among themselues at variance and had no superiour who should compounde the controuersies Our Archbishops doe not take vpon them neyther can they to decide any controuersie Howe farre our Archbishops deale in controuersies in doctrine and religion of their owne authoritie but therein doe they deale eyther according to the lawes of the Churche prouided for that purpose or else expecte a newe Parliament or Synode Neyther doth any Bishop in his Dioces otherwise meddle in suche matters than by the common consent of the Churche is appoynted vnto him and yet it was neuer otherwise taught by any but that a Bishop in hys owne Diocesse or an Archebishop in his Prouince mighte vse persuasions to ende controuersies and execute the lawes prouided for the same other kinde of deciding controuersies by any priuate authoritie I knowe none in this Church of Englande Wherfore al these allegations be but in vayne for surely not in Cyprians time was the determining of suche controuersies committed to the Pastor and Seigniorie of euery Parishe neyther doth Cyprian make mention of any suche matter if he did yet for gouernment the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church is to be considered Tract 2. 3. as I haue before noted Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 4. And that there was in his time no such authoritie giuen as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose as now we see there is when the Bishop of the Di es taketh the matters in controuersie which rise in any Church within his Dioces from the minister Elders to whom the decision perteyneth and as when the archebishop taketh it away from the Bishop it may appeare in the same thirde Epistle of the first booke where he sayth after this sort It is ordeyned and it is equall and right that euery mans cause should be there heard where the fault was committed And a little after he sayth It is meete to handle the matter there where they maye haue both accusers and witnesses of the faulte whiche although it be spoken of them whiche fled out of Affrike vnto Rome yet the reason is generall and dothe aswell serue agaynst these ecclesiasticall persons whych wyll take vnto them the deciding of those controuersies that were done a hundred myle of them Io. Whitgifte Cyprian as I sayd speaketh not one worde of your Seigniorie in that place by you alleages he speaketh of the seueral Prouince ▪ 〈◊〉 Dioces of euery bishop would haue euery matter ended in that Prouince 〈◊〉 Diocesse where it is cōmitted therfore he speaketh there of suche as fled out of Affrica into Italie to haue their matters heard so that this place is soluted by your owne selfe It is méete that the matter should be there handled where there may be had bothe accusers witnesses And that was one of the reasons that the Councel of Affrica sed agaynst the Bishop of Rome clayming interest in hearing appeales from thence But there is no Prouince in Englande so large but that both the accusers and witnesses may be brought into any parte of it from any other parte This reason of yours maye serue better agaynst Westminster hall which is but one place to serue the whole Realme for deciding of controuersies and yet I thinke it very necessarie ▪ You may not wrest that to your purpose or proof of Seigniorie or authoritie therof whiche Cyprian speaketh of diuers Prouinces yea diuers Countreys and Nations This is no good reason Cyprian mislyked the translating of causes from Affrica to Rome Ergo there maye be no causes remoued from Northampton to London Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 5. And whereas M. Doctor in bothe places of Cyprian seemeth to stande much vpon the words one Bishop and priest the reason thereof dothe appeare in another place of Cyprian moste manyfestly L 3. epi. 13 and that it maketh no more to proue that there ought to be one archebishop ouer a whole prouince than to say that there ought to be but one husbande proueth that therefore there should be but one husbande in euery countrey or prouince whiche shoulde see that all the rest of the husbands do their duties to their wiues For this was the case a Nouatian heretike beeing condemned cast out of the Churches of Affrica by the consent of the Bishops not able by embassage sent to them to obteyne to be receyued to their cōmunion fellowship agayne oeth afterwards to Rome and beeing likewise there repelled in time getteth himselfe by certayne which fauoured his heresie to be chosen Bishop there at Rome Cornelius beeing the Bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded whervpon it commeth that Cyprian vrgeth one Bishop one priest in the church bicause at Rome there was two wherof one was a wolfe
Churche to the which the whole realme hath consented Can. apost 33. The. 33. Canon of the Apostles quoted in the margent is this Episcopos singularum gentium scire conuenit quis inter eos primus babeatur quem velut existiment c. It behoueth the Bishops of euery prouince to know who is chiefe among thē whom they must esteeme as their head and do nothing without his knowledge saue such things only as pertayne to their owne parish and villages which are vnder it neyther shall he do any thing without the knowledge of all For so shall vnitie be kept and God shall be glorified through Christe in the holy Ghost What haue you gotten by this Canon you see here manifestly that in euery prouince or nation there must be one chiefe Bishop that is Archbishop to whom the rest muste submitte themselues and do nothing without his knowledge This is asmuch as I require And if this Canon was made by the Apostles wherof you seeme not to doubte then is the name and authoritie of an Archbishop of greater antiquitie than you would gladly haue it and the reason and saying of S. Ierome most true Both of this Canon and of the Canon of the councell of Antioch confirming it I haue spoken before Your Passim in the margent if it be meant of such like plac s as this I graunt it but if of any other popular or Aristocraticall state and kinde of gouernment or to the improuing of the office and authoritie of an Archbishop it will fall out to be nusquam You say that it appeareth in the decretalls themselues that this kinde of gouernment hath bene the wellspryng of most horrible schisme Shew one place why are you not ashamed to vtter manifest vntruthes Shew one sentence there tending to that ende I haue recited some Canons out of that place and I haue shewed the entent of Gratian both in them and in the rest They all signifie that an Archbyshop may not do any thing of his owne authoritie without the consent of the other Byshops which no man denieth and this is the whole scope of that question Our peace is in truth and due obedience we haue the true doctrine of the worde of God and the right administration of the Sacramentes and therefore to make contention in this Church and to disturbe the quietnes and peate cannot be but mere schismaticall I will say no worse Zuinglius in his Ecclesiastes sayth that the Anabaptistes went aboute to defende their contentions then after the same manner that you do yours nowe But I answere you as he answered them your contention is not agaynst Infidels Papists and such like but agaynst the faythfull agaynst the true professors of the Gospell and in the Church of Christe and therefore as it is of it selfe wicked so is it the cause of contempt disobedience and much other vngodlinesse And the two flintstones may be in such time and place striken togither that the sparkes of fire which commeth from them may consume and burne the whole citie and countrie too And surely he is but a mad man that will smite fire to light a candle to sée by at noone day when the sunne shineth most clearely Chap. 3. the. 30. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 4. If therefore superioritie and domination of one aboue the rest haue such force to keepe men frō schismes when they be in the truth it hath as great force to keepe them togither in errour and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted than many this power of one bringeth as great incōmoditie in keping them in error if they fall into it as in the truth if they are in it Io. Whitgifte This is as though you should saye that if a Monarchie be an excellent kynde of gouernment and in déede the best when the lawes rule and not man as Aristotle sayth then also is it the worste when affection ruleth and not the lawe which is true for that is the worst state of gouernment which is opposed to the beste But if you will therefore conclude that a Monarchie is not the best state your argument hath no reason in it euen so is it in the gouernment of the Churche if the chéefe gouernour thereof should follow his owne appetite and be ruled by his priuate affections but it is farre otherwise when he ruleth according to the lawes wherevnto he himselfe is subiect Chap. 3. the. 31. Diuision T. C. Pag 81. Sect. 4. Morouer if it be necessary for the keping of vnitie in the Church of England that one Archbishop should be primate ouer all why is it not as meete that for the keping of the whole vniuersall Churche there should be one Archbishop or Byshop ouer all and the like necessitie of the byshop ouer A popish reason all Christendome as of the byshop of all England vnlesse peraduenture it be more necessary that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuersall Church than ouer the Church of England for as much as it is more necessarie that peace should be kept and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersall Church than in the particular church of England Io. Whitgifte This is the reason of the Papistes for the Popes supremacie and you haue borowed The reasons serue not for the Pope that serue for the Archbishop Caluine it from them Wherefore I will answere you as M. Caluine answereth them in his Institutions Cap. 8. Sect. 95. That which is profitable in one nation cannot by any reason be extended to the whole worlde for there is great difference betwixt the whole world and one nation And a little after it is euen as though a man should affirme that the whole world may be gouerned by one King bycause one fielde or towne hath but one ruler or Mayster And agayne that which is of force among fewe may not by and by be drawne to the whole worlde to the gouernment whereof no one man is sufficient M. Nowell also answereth Dorman making the same reason that you doe in these M. Nowell lib. 3. fol. 321. woordes To your third question sayeth he speaking to Dorman the lewdest of all why the same proportion may not be kepte betweene the Pope and the reste of the Byshops of Christendome that is betweene the Archbishop and the other Bishops of the prouince I answere you might as well aske why the same proportion may not be kepte betweene one Emperour of all the worlde and all the Princes of the worlde to be vnder him that is betweene the King of one realme and his Lordes vnder him The reason that the same proportion can not be kept is first bycause there is no lyke proportion at all betweene the abilitie of mans witte and power being but weake to gouerne one prouince and his abilitie to gouerne the whole Churche and all Churches throughout the worlde which no one man can haue knowledge of much lesse can haue abilitie to rule them Secondly you can bring no
such proportion of antiquitie for your Pope to be cheefe head of the whole Churche as is to be shewed for Archbishops to be the chiefe Bishops in their owne prouinces c. Hitherto M. Nowell I marueyle that you will ioyne with the Papistes in so grosse a reason Chap. 3. the. 32. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82 Sect. 1. If you say that the Archbishop of England hath his authoritie graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas which was Emperour of al Christendome did graunt him his authoritie ouer all Churches But you will say that is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therein as you do in diuerse poyntes here But admit it to be yet I say further that it may come to passe and it hath bene that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes which haue Churches What if he then will giue that authoritie to one ouer all that one king graunteth in his lande may any man accept and take at his handes such authoritie and if it be not lawfull for him to take that authoritie tell me what fault you can finde in him which may not be founde in them Io. Whitgifte The Pope doth chalenge muche of his temporalties from Constantinus and Phocas but his supremacie and iurisdiction ouer all Churches he claymeth from Peter and from Christe wherein his clayme is more intollerable being most false and his iurisdiction more vsurped beyng wrongfully chalenged you erre therefore in that oynt greatly The Archbishop doth exercise his iurisdiction vnder the Prince and by the Princes authoritie For the Prince hauing the supreme gouernment of the realme in all causes and ouer all persons as she doth exercise the one by the Lorde Chancellor so doth she the other by the Archbishops Your supposition of one Cesar ouer all realmes that haue Churches is but supposed and therfore of no weight but admit it were true yet is there not the like reason for one Archbishop to be ouer all those Churches and ouer one prouince the reasons I haue alleaged before out of M. Caluine other neither is there any man not wilfully blinded or papistically affected that seeth not what great diuersitie there is betwixt one prouince and many kingdomes the gouernment of the one and the gouernment of the other Si vnus duodecim bominibus praefuit an propterea sequetur vnum debere Inst. cap. 8. centum millibus hominum praefici If one was ouer twelue men shall it therefore follow that one may be appoynted ouer an hundred thousand men Sayth M. Caluine Chap. 3. the. 33. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 2. It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a Bishop vnto all the whole Church neyther is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole Churche of England for when those which haue bene most excellent in knowledge and wisdome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue founde ynough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he which absent is able to discharge his duetie toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Ehauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what do you else say than the Pope which sayeth that by his Cardinalles Archbishops and Legates and other such lyke he doth all things For with their handes he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euery where and with their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therefore least if they haue a common defense with the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer with him in the cause than peraduenture they be aware of (a) Who can beleue you mean good fayth ▪ Truly it is agaynst my will that I am constrayned to make such comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersitie betweene the Popedome and the Archbyshopricke but bycause there being great resemblance betwene them I meane hauing regard to the bare functiōs without respecting the doctrine good or bad which they vphold that I say there being great resemblance betwene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betwene the persons that execute them The which good opinion conceyued of them I do most humbly beseech them by the glorie of God by the libertie of the Churche purchased by the precious bloud of our sauiour Christe and by their owne saluation that they would not deceyue by reteyning so harde such excessiue and vniust dominion ouer the Church of the liuing God Io. Whitgifte But one man may do the office of an Archbishop in one prouince euery seuerall diocesse whereof hath a Bishop And one man may do the office of a Bishop in one diocesse euery seuerall parishe whereof hath a seuerall Pastor The Archbishop hath a generall charge ouer the prouince to sée that vnitie be kept among the Bishops and that the Bishops do their duties according to the lawes and order of the Churche or else to sée them reformed according to the sayd lawes orders if they shall be cōplayned of to haue neglected the same The lyke care haue the Bishops ouer the seuerall Pastors of their diocesse and other persons Neyther doth their office consiste in preaching onely but in gouerning also in the respect whereof they are ouer aboue the rest This office of gouernment may be well executed in one prouince so much and so far as by the lawes is required and as is cōuenient for the state of the Church but it could not be so ouer all Christendome It may be that some Pastors hauing small charges and busie heades may finde and procure moe matters and controuersies than eyther they be able or willing to compound such busie Pastors there be in England but their vnquietnesse or lacke of abilitie to dispatch those controuersies which they themselues are the authors and causes of doth not proue but that eyther the Archbishop or Bishop may do those things sufficiently and well that do apperteyne to their office and calling So much may they do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Chauncellors c. as by the rules of the Churche are permitted vnto them and may be conuenient for the time and persons But the office of preaching of ordeyning ministers of suppressing heresies and schismes with such lyke they do not commit vnto them but execute them themselues the which bycause they cannot do throughout all Churches as they may in one Prouince therefore your reason is no reason Moreouer a Bishop of one diocesse or prouince may haue conference with his Archdeacons and Chauncellor and be priuie to all and singular their doings So cannot the Pope with his Cardinalles Archbyshops and Legates c. dispersed thorough out whole Christendome And therefore an Archbishop or Bishop may
well gouerne a prouince or diocesse and vse the heipe of Archdeacons Chauncellors c. but so cannot the Pope doe whole Christendome what helpe or deputies soeuer he haue If agaynst your will you were constrayned to make such comparisons why do you make Difference betwene the Pope and our Archbishops them when there is no cause why do you forge that which is vntrue why do you ioyne togither offices which in no poynt are like The Pope chalengeth authoritie ouer all Christendome so do not our Archbishops The Pope exalteth himselfe aboue Kings and Princes so do not our Archbishops but with all reuerence acknowledge their subiection to the Prince The Pope sayeth that to be subiect vnto him is of necessitie to saluation so do not our Archbishops The Pope maketh his Decrées equall to the woorde of God our Archbishops thinke nothing lesse of theirs To be short the Pope oppresseth and persecutetth the Gospel they earnestly professe it and haue suffered persecution for it Therefore your comparison is odious your riotous speach more presumptuous than becommeth a man pretending your simplicitie Your good opinion conceyued of them is well vttered in your booke what spirit hath taught you thus to dissemble surely euen the same that hath falsified Scriptures and wryters in your booke that hath vttered so many prowde and contemptuous speaches agaynst your superiours that hath moued you to make contention in the Churche euen spiritus mendax spiritus arrogantiae superbiae a lying spirite the spirite of arrogancie and pryde for such frutes cannot procéede from any other spirite Chap. 3. the. 34. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 3. 4. But Ierome sayth that this distinction of a Bishop a minister or elder was frō S. Marke his tyme vnto Dionysius time whereby M. Doctor would make vs beleeue that Marke was the author of this distinction but that cannot be gathered by Ieromes wordes For besides that things being ordered then by the suffrages of the ministers and Elders it might as it falleth out oftentimes be done without the approbation of S. Marke the wordes from Marke may be rather taken exclusiuely to shut out S. Marke and the time wherein he liued than inclusiuely to shut him in the tyme wherein this distinction rose Howsoeuer it be it is certayne that S. Marke did not distinguishe and make those things diuers which the holy ghost made all one For then which the Lord forbid he should make the storie of the Gospell which he wrote suspected Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to Ieromes woordes but a dallying with them the place is euident he sayth from the time of Marke the Euangelist whom vndoubtedly he would not haue named vnlesse the same manner had bene in his time But be it that the wordes from Marke be taken exclusiuely which no man of Iudgement will graunt yet doth it argue a great antiquitie of this distinction euen from the moste pure and best time of the Churche It is certayne that these thinges were not otherwise distinguished than the holy Ghost had appoynted and therefore your for then c. is an vngodly collection and vnbeséeming your person in any respect to imagine of the glorious Gospell written by that holy Euangelist Chap. 3. the. 35. Diuision T. C Pag. 2. Sect. 5. Againe it is to be obserued that Ierome sayeth it was so in Alexandria signifying thereby An absurde collection that in other Churches it was not so And indeede it may appeare in diuers places of the auncient fathers that they confounded Priest and Bishop and tooke them for all one as Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Ani ete Pius Telesphorus Higinus Xystus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 5. 16. De dignitate sacerdotali Elders and presidents Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop in the Epistles before recited so doth Ambrose in the place alledged before by M. Doctor and yet it is one thing with vs to be a priest as M. Doctor speaketh and an other thing to be a Bishop Io. Whitgifte This argument passeth of all that euer I heard Ierome sayth there was a Bishop The passing Logike of T. C. in Alexandria aboue the other ministers from S. Markes time therefore there was no Bishop in any place else God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Iacob Ergo he is no bodies God else he is the God of the Iewes Ergo not of the Gentiles There be Bishops in England Ergo there are none in any other place No marueyle it is though you riot in your Logike when such stuffe is set abroad Like vnto this are the other Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Anitete Pius Telesphorus c. elders and presidents and Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop and so doth Ambrose Ergo euery Priest is such a Bishop as Ierome here speaketh of These be pretie argumentes Euery Bishop is a Priest but euery Priest hath not the name and title of a Bishop Difference betwixt byshop priest Hieronymus ad Euagrium in that meaning that Ierome in this place taketh the name of a Byshop For his woordes be these Nam Alexandriae à Marco Euangelista vsque ad Heraclam c. At Alexandria from Marke the Euangelist vntill Heracla and Dionysius Bishops the ministers alwayes chose one from among themselues and placing him in a higher degree of dignitie called him a Bishop as if an armie should make a Captayne ▪ c. Neyther shall you finde this woorde Episcopus commonly vsed but for that Priest that is in degrée ouer and aboue the rest notwithstanding Episcopus be oftentimes called Presbyter bycause Presbyter is the more generall name so that M. Doctor sayth truely that it is with vs one thing to be a Byshop an other thing to be a priest bycause euery Bishop is a Priest but euery Priest is not a Bishop I know these names be confounded in the Scriptures but I speake according to the manner and custome of the Church euen since the Apostles time And this is not onely my opinion but other learned men affirme it in lyke manner as M. Bucer in his booke De regno Christi and vpon the. 4. Ephes. Whose woordes I haue before rehersed Thus you sée that M. Doctors distinction is with better authoritie cōfirmed than you haue any to ouerthrow it Chap. 3. the. 36. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. vlt. Ierusalem was a famous Church so was Rome as the Apostle witnesseth so was Antioche Rom. 1. and others where also were great contentions both in doctrine and otherwise and yet for auoyding of contention schisine there there was no (*) An vntruth one that was ruler of the rest Therfore we ought rather to follow these Churches beyng many in keping vs to the institutiō of the Apostles than Alexandria beyng but one Church and departing from that institution if there had bene any one set ouer al the rest in other places it would haue made much for the distinctiō that Icrome had
eos quos baptizauerat c. After that euery one did think those to be his not Chri stes whom he had baptized it was decreed throughout the whole world that one of the ministers being chosen should be set ouer the rest vnto whome the whole care of the churche should aperteyn and the seeds of schismes be taken away Do you thinke y t this is ment of the Pastor of euery towne To what purpose shoulde Ierome saye so For the pastor of euery seueral towne had from the beginning his a thorite ouer his flocke without any such constitution Moreouer there are not in euery seuerall congregatiō many pastors or priestes ouer whom one shold be placed as chief But Ierome speaketh of a Bishop that must gouerne the other Priestes and procure that vnitie bée kept among them and therfore his iurisdiction must of necessitie extend to many parishes bicause it is ouer many pastors He sayth lykewise that the care of the whole was cōmitted vnto him In his epistle ad Euagrium he vttereth his meanyng as plainly For he sayeth That the Priests did choose one among themselues whome they placing Idē ad Eu gr in a higher degree called a Bishop Wherby it apeareth y t he had authoritie ouer many Pastors and therfore ouer many congregations for you will not denie but that euery presbyter that is minister of the worde had his seuerall flocke This he declareth more euidently by the examples there vsed of souldiers choosing their Captain for though the Captain before was a common souldiour yet now being hus preferred he ruleth and gouerneth the reste of the souldiers euen so the Bishop being before a minister equall with other yet being chosen to that degrée he is their guide and gouernoure a gouernour I say of those that did elect him that ist of Priests or ministers therfore of diuers congregations This dothe yet more euidentely appeare in these woordes of the same Epistle That one was afterwardes chosen to rule the reste it was a remedie against schismes least euerie one drawing to himselfe the Churche shoulde breake the same And in his booke Ibidem Idem contr Lucifer contra Luciferianos he sayeth that except the chief authoritie were giuen to one tot essent schismata quot sacerdotes there would be as many schismes as priests By which places it is certain that Ieromes meaning is to haue some one in a prouince or dioces ouer the rest proprely called a Bishop who should haue chief authoritie least euery man in his owne seuerall parish being permitted to do what he list might in the end fyll the Church with schismes vt tot essent schismata quot sacerdotes And surely it is vnpossible to expounde Ierome otherwise But you aske me what this helpeth for the Archbishop c very much For if it be so necessarie to haue one Bishop ouer diuers Priests in euery seuerall dioces for the auoyding of schisme and cōtention it is also necessarie in euery prouince to haue an archbish p for the direction of diuers Bishops the auoyding of schisme amōg them And therfore sayth Ierome again in his epistle ad Rusticū monachū euerie ecclesiasticall Hiero ad Rusticum order is subiect to hir gouernours You aske what could haue ben brought more strong to pull downe the Archbishop out of his throne than that which Ierom sayth there when he affirmeth that the bishop of the obscurest village or hamlet hath as gret authority dignitie as the bishop of Rome I answer that this nothing at alderogateth frō the Archbishop For it is not denied but that euery bishop euery minister are equal quoad ministerium but not quoad ordinem politiam this is that which Ierome saith eiusdem sunt meriti sacerdotij they be of the same merite and priesthod y t is their ministerie office in preaching the word administring y e sacraments is al one And their authoritie also toward such as were vnder their iu isdiction Metropolitanes c. in Ierome his tyme. but he doth nor say y e one Bishop hath not more ample large iurisdictiō thā the other for the contrarie of that is manyfest And in S. Ieroms tyme there wer Metropolitanes Archbishops c. as you may read in the defe se of the Apol. edit 2. pag. 121. These obscure townes doe derogate nothing from the authoritie of a bishop for we see it oftentimes come to passe y t the Bishops seate is but in obscure towns as it is in diuers places of England yet is the bishops iurisdiction in his dioces no whit the lesse If we respect the places Canterburie is far inferior to London And therefore Ieroms meaning is y t the place neither addeth any thing or taketh any thing away from the worthinesse authoritie and office of a Bishop Wheresoeuer a Bishop is in citie or in towne he is of the same authoritie and worthinesse Erasmus in his Scholies vpon that epistle of Hierome hath these words Certè Metropolitanus Erasmus habet aliquid dignitatis c. Surely the Metropolitane hath some dignitie iurisdi tion aboue the other bishops therfore that he here maketh the Bishops of base cities equal with the rest it is to be referred vnto the deacons which in some places were preferred before the ministers whom he doth in a maner make equall with Bishops And in an other place he sayeth that the ministers succede into the place of the Apostles the Byshop into the place of Christ. In this thing therefore are Byshoppes and ministers equall that wheresoeuer they are they are to be preferred before Deacons Here Erasmus speaketh in good earnest howsoeuer he iested before He she weth that these obscure villages or hamlets as you terme them were cities and no doubt as good as eyther Ely or Peterborough but in the respect of Rome contemptible as these be in respect of Lontō And yet the Bishops of euery one of them eiusdem meriti sacer dotij of the same merite priesthood authoritie Erasmus also here telleth in what respect he hath made this cōparison betwixt Bishops and other ministers in the respect of Deacons For both Bishops Priests are to be preferred equally before Deacons bicause of their ministerie office which is aboue the office of a Deacon Nam ex Diacono ordinatur presbyter For a minister or priest is made of a Deacon not ex presbytero diaconus the Deacon of the priest It is most euident neither can it be so vnknown vnto you y e Ierome in al these places meaneth to haue one bishop gouernour of many priests And therefore this interpretation of yours is without all probabilitie or shadow of truth that Hieromes meaning is to haue suche a Bishop in euery towne I trust the reader will note with what vaine reasons you first went about to shake The shift of T. C. in his answer to Hierom. the credit of this wryter Then
neyther can you declared before out of the Scriptures h we vayne a disrinction it is and it appeareth out of Cyprian that as all the Bishops were equall one to another so he sayth that to euerie one was giuen a portion of the Lords flock not only to feed with the worde and sacraments but to rule and gouerne not as they which shal make any accompt vnto an archbishop or be iudged of him but as they which can not be iudged of any but of God And Ierome vpon Cituz sayth that the elder or minister (c) But you con 〈◊〉 that which foloweth did gouerne and rule in common with the Bishops the Churche wherof he was elder or minister Io. Whitgifte The distinetion quoad ministerium quoad ordinem tustisyed Caluine Beza Lib. con cap. 7 art 12. The distinction is good and true allowed of the best writers though the Papists wrongfully applie it M. Caluin vpon the 2. Cor. 10. hath the same distinction Quamuis sayth he commune sit omnibus verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen honoris gradus Although there is one office cōmon to al the ministers of the word yet are there degrees of ho nour M. Beza likewyse lib. conf cap. 7. saith thus that pastors in proces of time wer distinct into Metropolitanes Bishops and those we now call curates it was not in therespect of the ministerie of the worde but rather in respecte of iurisdiction and discipline Therefore concerning the office of preaching the vvorde and administrating the Sacramentes there is no difference betwixt Archbishops Bishops and curates c. The same distinction doth Hemingius vse in his Enchiridion 〈◊〉 the. 72. 〈◊〉 of this chapter as shall be seene hereafter What say you now is this a starting hole or rather a true distinction allowed by such as are far frō Papistrie except you wil accuse M Caluine and Beza for Papists You are not able to improue this distinction with all the learning you boast of and bitternesse of words will not carie away the matter You haue declared nothing tending to the improuing of this distinction the wordes both of Cyprian and of Hicrom do manifestly confirme it for they both would haue one chief among the ministers to gouerne the rest as it is said before You deale corruptly in reciting Hieroms words for you haue left out his purpose and meaning I wil set them down as they be in déed Idē est ergo presbyter c. VVherfore the minister Heir ad Tit. 1. and bishop are al one and before that through the instinct of the deuil there were diuisions in religion and that it was sayd among the people I hold of Paule I of Apollo and I of Cephas the churches were ruled in cōmon by the coūcell of the ministers But after that euery one accompted those whom he baptized to be his and not Christes it was decreed thorowout the whole world that one being chosen from amōg the ministers should be placed ouer the rest to whom the whole care of the church should appertein and the seedes of schismes be taken away Wil you not leaue off to deale thus guilefully with your Reader haue you no care to deale plainly and simply Ierome in that place verifieth this distinctiō and she weth that it was for order policie that among the ministers there was one bishop apointed ad quē omnia ecclesiae cura pertineret schismatū semina tollerētur And what can be spoken more directly to the purpose But one thing here I note that you wold be controlled of none but of God that is you would be exempted from all authoritie of man euen as the Pope himselfe is Chap. 3. the. 43. Diuision Answere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Lin. 4. And therfore wel saith M. Caluin in his Institutions cap 8. that the Caluine alloweth superioritie twelue Apostles had one among them to gouerne the rest it was no maruel sor nature requireth it and the disposition of man wilso haue it that in euery companie although they be al equal in power yet that there be one as gouernour by whom the rest may be directed there is no Courte without a Consul no Senate without a Pretor no Colledge without a Presidente no societie vvithout a maister Haec Caluin T. C. Page 84. Sect. 3. After foloweth M. Caluin a great patron forsoth of the Archbishop or of this kinde of bishop which is vsed amongst vs here in England And here to passe ouer your strange citations quota tions which you make to put your answerer to pain sending him sometimes to Musculus common places for one sentence to Augustins works to Chrysostoms works to Cyril to M. Foxe here sending him to y e. 8. chapter of y e Institutiōs (*) as though you had neuer red Caluins institutions but tooke she sentence of some body else withoute any examination whereby it seemeth that you were loth that euer any man should answer your booke letting I say al this passe what maketh this eyther to prone that there should be one Archbyshop ouer all the ministers in the prouince or one Byshop ouer all in the diocesse that amongst twelue that were gathered togyther into one place there was one which ruled the action for which they mette Io. Whitgifte A practis wor thy the noting This is to be obserned throughout your whole booke as I haue noted in other places that when any authoritie is alleadged that pincheth you then you fall to cauilling by and by I haue no where referred you to Iustinians code to Gratians decrees to Augustines works to diuers councels to Theodorete to the centuries c. Without noting eyther booke Chapter distinction number Canon or such like as you vsually deale with me and yet these be farre more tedious to reade ouer than is the. 8. Chap. of Caluines Institutions I do not remember that I referred you to Augustine Chrysostome or any other writers for any matter in controuersie Cyrill Museulus and M. Foxe onely in one place excepted but I quoted the places as particularly as I coule And why will you then so vntruly report of me vndoubtedly I neuer red a booke for the quantitie of it so pestered with slanderous reportes false accusations and contentious deriding speaches as this your booke is But let it go Diuers editions of Caluines institutions This booke of institutions which is distinguished into Chapters and not into bookes I red and noted thorough before you as it shoulde seeme knew whether there were any such booke or no and bycause I haue laboured in it noted it and am well acquainted with it therefore I vse it and follow it and so will I do still Neyther are you ignorant I am sure that there be sundry editions of those institutions although you séeme to dissemble the matter in this place I mighte say of purpose for you haue answered after your manner places before out of the
of this Churche of Englande Master Foxe In the ecclesiasticall estate vve take not avvay the distinction of ordinarie degrees suche as by the Scripture be appoynted or by the Primitiue Churche allovved as Patriarkes or Archebishops Bishops ministers and deacons for of these foure vve especially reade as chief in vvhich foure degrees as vvegraunt diuersitie of office so vve admit in the same also diuersitie of dignitie neyther denying that vvhich is due to eache degree neyther yet maynteyning the ambition of any singular person For as vve giue to the minister place aboue the Deacon to the Bishop aboue the minister to the Archbishop aboue the Bishop so vve see no cause of inequalitie vvhy one minister should be aboue another minister one Bishop in his degree aboue another Bishop to deale in his dioces or an Archbishop aboue an other Archbishop and this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definitiō of order by the authoritie of Augustine lib. de Ciui Ordo est parium dispariumque rerum sua cuique loca tribuens dispositio Hitherto M. Foxe Nowe let the indifferent Reader iudge whether these offices be straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ or no. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. vlt. M. Doctor closeth vp this matter with M. Foxe but eyther for feare that the place shoulde be founde that there might be answere or for feare that M. Foxe shoulde giue me the solution which hath giuen you the obiecion he would neyther quote the place of the booke nor the booke it selfe he hauing written diuers You can not speake so muche good of M. Foxe whiche I wyll not wyllingly subscribe vnto and if it be any declaration of good wyll and of honor that one beareth to another to reade that which he writeth I thinke (*) I maruel 〈◊〉 place 〈◊〉 cape so 〈◊〉 a r ader I haue read more of him than you For I haue read ouer his booke of Martyrs and so I think dyd neuer you for if you had read so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue beene hasty to snatche at this place he woulde haue taughte Pag. 78. of the booke of Actes you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetche your authorities and woulde haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of Metropolitanes Bishops and other degrees whiche you say sometimes had their beginnings in the Apostles tymes sometimes you can not tell when were not in Higinus tyme whyche was 180. yeares after Christe I (a) A suspicious head perceyue you feare M. Foxe is an enimie vnto your Archbishop and primate and therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupte him with his prayse and to seeke to drawe him if it were possible vnt the Archbishop and if not yet at the least that he would be no enimie if he woulde not nor coulde not be his friend You make me suspect that your prayse is not harty but pretended bicause you doe so often and so bitterly speake agaynst all those that wyll not receyue the cappe and surplesse and other ceremonies whereof M. Foxe declareth his great misliking For answere vnto the place bicause I remember it not nor meane not to reade ouer the whole booke to seeke it I say first as I sayde before that there may be somethyng before or after whych may giue the solution to this plac especially seeing M. Foxe in another place page 96. prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfeyt he vseth this reason because the fyft canon of the sayd Epistles solemnly entreateth of the difference betweene Primates Metropolitanes and Archbishops which distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauour more of ambition than persecution Moreouer I saye that M. Foxe wryting a storie dothe take greater payne and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what tyme and by whome than howe iustly or bniustly howe conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sinceritie of the Gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whyche hathe traueled so muche and so profitably to that ende will not haue hys authoritie or name therein to bryng any preiudice Nowe wyll I also ioyne wyth you and leaue it to the iudgemente of the indifferent Reader howe well out of the Scriptures Councels wryters olde and newe you haue proued eyther the lawfulnesse at all of the names of Archbishops Patriarkes Archdeacons Primates or of the lawfulnesse of the office of them and of Bishops which be in our times Io. Whitgifte If you had so diligently read M. Foxe his booke of Martyrs as you boast and brag that you haue done then could not this place haue béene so straunge vnto you for it is in the 20. page of his first tome where he hath an whole treatise touching the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome and speaketh of this matter at large The words be his own and expresse his owne iudgement of these degrées offices in this Church of Englande It had béene some token of modestie so to haue commended your selfe and your owne reading that you had not depraued any other mans But to cōmend your selfe and to detract from an other is eyther arrogant foolishnesse or foolishs arrogancie I can bring foorth good testimonies of my reading of these bookes thoughe I make no vragge thereof or vayne comparisons I haue alleaged none of these Epistles other wyse than M. Foxe him selfe hathe alleaged them M. Foxe hathe shewed him selfe in the place by me cited out of his booke to be no 〈◊〉 eyther to Archbishop Priuate or Bishop for I am sure he speaketh as he thinketh He is not a man like to be corrupted with prayse and therefore in so saying you doe vs bothe great iniurie You may not iudge my heart I thinke of M. Foxe as of one that I loue and reuerence I will not vtter all that I could least I should séeme to flatter There is nothing that goeth eyther before that place or followeth after it that can procure any other sense to his wordes than that in the which I haue set them down I doe not alleage M. Foxe for the originall of these names and offices but for the allowance of them These words that I haue recited are not spoken in the waye of any hystorie but of the order of gouernment of this Church which he alloweth and I dare saye for him that he hathe héereinspoken nothing whiche he thinketh maye hurte the 〈◊〉 of the Gospell And I am right well content to let the godly Reader iudge of bothe our proofes ¶ The defense of the answere of Master Iewell concerning Archbishops c. agaynst the vnreuerende Replie of T. C. Chap. 4. the first Diuision T. C. Pag ▪ 91. Sect. 1. And for as much as I haue purposed to answere in one place that which is scattered in diuers I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 halfe a sheete of 〈◊〉 ▪ which is annexed of
Priests and euites And I maruell that you wil denie this especially seing that you would de vs to the ciu ll law of Moses wherof this is a portion You adde that by all these princes ouer euerye tribe and fainilie as by the prince of the whole land God did as it were c. all this maketh nothing against our 〈◊〉 xcept y u will also take away the Prince of the whole land ▪ As this order among the Iewes was obserued in al tribes so is it now in al Prouinces and Diocesse This is but slender 〈◊〉 ou bring and y t not to the purpose for the A swere speaketh of na es and you driue it to offices Indeede you almost in no place reason ad Idem which is a maniiest argumente that you are but a shiftyng cauiller Chap. 4. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Line 13. Moreouer these orders and pollicies touching the distribution of the offices of the Leuites and priests and touching the appoin ment of their gouernours were done of Dauid by the * aduise 2. Chro. 19. of the Prophets Gad and Nathan which receiued of the Lord by commaundement that whyche they deliuered vnto Dauid And if so be that it can be shewed that Archbishops and Archdeacons came into the church by any commaundement of the Lord then this allegation hath some force but now being not only not 〈◊〉 but also as I haue shewed forbydden euery man doth see that this reason hath no place but serueth to the vtter ouerthrow of the Archbyshop and Archdeacon For if Dauid beyng suche a notable personage and as it were an Angell of God durste not take vpon him to bring into the Church any orders or pollicies not onely not againste the worde of God but not without a precise word and commaundement of God who shal dare be so bold as to take vpon him the institution of the chiefe office of the Church and to alter the pollicie that God hath appointed by his seruantes the Apostles Io. Whitgifte You runne away with the matter as though all were cleare when as it is not so You affirme y t Dauid did apoint these orders pollicies touching y e distribution of the offices of the leuites Priests c. by the eduise of Gad and Nathan the prophets of God And for proof hereof you quote in the margent 2. Chron. 19. where there is not one word for your purpose or signifying any suche thing In déed in the 2. chro 29. there is affirmed the lyke thing But my L. of Sarisburie hath answered you that such negatiue reasons are very weake And if you wil denie it to be a negatiue reason from authoritie yet can you not denie but that it is as féeble an argument as almost can be For what if Dauid did appoynt these orders touching the distribution of the offices of the leuites priests c. doth it therfore follow that the church at no tyme may appointe suche offices as shall be thought méete for the gouernment of it according to the tyme places and persons where haue you learned of a singular example to make a generall rule or to frame an argumente ex solis particularibus In the. 2. Chro. 19. which you haue quoted in the margent there is a not able place Scripture alleaged against himselfe against you for there expresse mention is made that Iehosaphat set in Ierusalem of the Leuites and of the Priests c. for the iudgemente and cause of the Lorde and made Amariah the Priest chiefe ouer them neyther were they Iudges for the citie 2. Chron. 19. of Ierusalem onely but for the whole countrey And yet we reade not of any commaundement vers 8. that Iehosaphat had so to do Chap. 4. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93 Sect. 1. And where the Bishop sayth it is knowne and confessed that ther wanted many things to the persection of the Churche of the Iewes truly I doe not knowe nor can not consesse that that Churche wanted (*) This is directly contrary to your selfe any thing to the perfection of that estate which the Lord would haue them be in vntill the comming of our sauioure Christ. And if there were any thing wanting it was not for wante of good lawes and pollicies whereof the question is but for wante of due execution of them which we speake not of Io. Whitgifte Conueniet nulli c. Nowe can he agrée with anye other man that dothe not agree with him selfe For before after you haue recyted diuers thinges lefte to the T. C. contrarie to himself order of that Churche of the Iewes for the whiche they had no expresse worde You saye that you wyll offer for one that I bring that we haue lefte to the order of the Pag. 22. Sec. 2. Churche to shewe that they had twenty whyche were vndecided by the expresse word of God And heere you saye that it wanted nothing to the perfection of that estate how you wyll reconcile your selfe I knowe not or whether it be your pleasure not to respecte your owne credite so that you may séeme to discredite that whyche that notable Byshop hathe spoken but that whyche I haue alleadged of Iehosaphat 2. Chro. 19. dothe manifestly iustifye my Lord of Sarisburies saying and condemneth youres For there it is to be séene that in matters of gouernment orders were appoynted which neyther were commaunded by any expresse commaundemente of God neyther yet expressed in the worde of God But of thys matter I haue spoken before Chap. 4 the. 14. Diuision The third Reason VVhere the substance of anything is most perfite there the accidents be most perfite but Tertia ratio the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 Religion was most perfit in the primitiue Churche and yet there was then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo. The Ansvvere of the Byshop First this 〈◊〉 is not proued for it may vvell be doubted vvhether the Eius solutio ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance hath euermore most porfit accidentes And againe the substance of Religion is the same novve that it vvas then the difference if there be any standeth in accidentes and not in substance Therefore thys 〈◊〉 of substance and accidentes vvas not needefull In the primitiue Church God raised vp Apostles and Prophets and gaue them povver ex as the gifte of tongues the gift of healing the gifte of gouernment c. In place vvher of he hath novv giuen Vniuersities Scholes Byshops 〈◊〉 shops c. But you say there vvas then no Archbyshop So may you say that before king Saul there vvas no king in Israel So may you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of late times there vvas neither Duke nor Earle in England So may you say 〈◊〉 the primitiue Church there was neither Deane nor person 〈◊〉 prebendarie And yet novv both in Ecclesiasticall and ciuill go 〈◊〉 these are thought necessarie Last of all vvhere you say there was no And by shop in the primitiue Church it is vvritten by many that S. Paul
Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 1. Cyprian was Byshop of Carthage Numidia Mauritania Cyprian lib. 4. epist. 8. Timothie being Byshop had the gouernment almost of the whole countrie of Asia as Chrysostome declareth vpon the. 1. Tim. 5. and. 2. Tim. 4. Titus was Byshop of y e whole I le of Creta as the same Chrysost. testifyeth ad Tit. 1. I aue before by sundry Idem examples and testimonies by diuers councels and especially the councell of Nice 〈◊〉 the vanitie vntruth of this that is here affirmed that is that there was one Byshop in euery parish and congregation and the words of Cyprian and Ierome be cleane rary for they both make a difference betwene a Byshop to whome the gouernment of many pastors is committed and a pastor that hath but one seuerall flocke or charge For further vnderstanding whereof I referre y e Reader to that which is spoken before The byshops haue now as seuerall churches to preache and minister the sacraments in as they had then They haue no more authoritie in gouernment now than they had at that time nor so much and yet if they had more authoritie than they eyther haue now or had then I thinke it were more for the commoditie of the Church the state of the time and conditions of men considered As for ruling euery seuerall churche by those whiche you call Elders you haue shewed no such thing out of Ierome neyther can you For Ierome in that place you meane by presbyteri meaneth Priests as he dothe in all other places that I remember Neyther doth he there speake of particular parishes Touching the electing and ordeyning of ministers sufficient hath bin spoken before Tract 3. The Byshop doth nothing therein but that which he may iustly by the word of God and testimonie of the best and most worthy writers Of excommunication we shall speake hereafter you do glance at it now out of Tract 18. place And thus he that is an indifferēt Reader may vnderstand that the Byshops in these days in this Church of England haue no other authoritie than the word of God doth giue vnto them The Byshops of the primitiue Church haue pract sed y e libertie of the Church wel beareth and the state of the time and condition of men requireth Chap. 5. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Lin. 7. And as for the offices wherein there is any laboure or trauayle those they haue turned vnto the other ministers as for example in tunes past (*) A worthy councell it was not lawfull for him that was then an Hispal con ca. elder to preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop bycause the Byshop himselfe should do it and now those which they call elders may preach and minister the sacraments by the Byshops good licence although he be present Io. Whitgifte There is no iust cause of complaint for most of the Byshops in that behalfe For I thinke the time hath not bin wherein there were moe preaching Byshops than are at this day in this Church But do you thinke that a minister may not preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop Or do you so well allow of A corrupt councell alledged that Councell and canon quoted in your margent It was the second councell called Hispalense concilium it was not generall but prouinciall celebrated Anno. Dom. 659. the contents of the canon by you alledged are these That a Priest may not cōsecrate alters but only the Byshop that a Priest and Chorepiscopi may not consecrate virgines erect altars Hisp. Con. 2. Can. 7. blesse and anoynt them hallow churches make holy oyle and such like but only the Byshop Likewise that no priest may baptise say Masse ▪ teach the people or blesse them in the presence of the Byshop Surely this is a worthy Councel and a notable canon especially for you to alledge that haue so depraued other worthy writers for some imperfections founde in them But what doth it make for your purpose They might both preach and minister The councell alledged against himself the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop if he willed them and so is the canon This law was made for the encreasing of the Byshops pompe and dignitie for no man might presume to speake or do any thing in their presence without their leaue and licence so were they estéemed thē and such authoritie had they But if our Byshops should clayme the like you would say that it were an vntollerable arrogancie and pride I would to God all those that be deluded by you would consider your allegations and the grounds of your proofes Surely I woulde be loth to alledge any Councell of that time to proue any thing in controuersie Much more loth would I be to 〈◊〉 so corrupt a canon but lothest of all to alledge that which should be so flat against 〈◊〉 cause proue the cleane cōtrary to that which I affirme as this doth in your 〈◊〉 ▪ And here I haue one thing to tell you y t diuers of those things wherin you 〈◊〉 T. C. chargeth the office with the fault of the men make this difference betwixt our Byshops and those of the primitiue church if t ey were true yet wer they no saults in the office but in the men as for example thys which you here set downe Will you make a differēce in the offices of our Byshops and those of olde time bycause some of them do not preach This compareth the mē togither not the offices except you proue that it is forbidden or vnlawfull for one of our Byshops to preach There are other such like which I omitte Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 1. Now if you wil also consider how much the Lord ship pompe and statelinesse of the Byshops in our days differ from the simplicitie of them in times past ▪ I will giue you also a taste therof if first of all I shew the beginning or as it were the fountaine where vpon the pompe grew which Marke how this is proued was when in stead of hauing a Byshop in euery parishe and congregation they began to make a Byshop of a whole dioces and of a thousand congregations Io. Whitgifte If the pompe began as you say then began it in the Apostles time for then began they to make one Byshop ouer a whole diocesse as Timothie almost ouer all Asia and Titus ouer all Creta as I haue declared Which order hath bin from that day to this obserued throughout all Christendome as it may appeare by that which is already said Chap. 5. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. In an epistle of Zacharie vnto (*) It is an epistle o Pope Zacharie to Boniface not of Zacharie to Pope Boniface Pope Boniface it is thus written it hath bin oftētimes decreede Concil to 3 epist. Zacha Papae ad Bonifac. y t there should not be
Bishop of Smyrna Tertull. de praescript In the Church of Alexandria from the time of S. Marke the ministers had always a Bishop to gouerne them Hiero. ad Euagrium Ignatius who liued in the Apostles tyme doth call a Bishop principem Sacerdotum the prince of Priestes in epist. ad Smyrnenses In Eleutherius is tyme whiche was Anno. 180. when this realme of England Testimonies of the tymes nexte after the Apostles Anno. 180. was fyrst conuerted to Christianitie there was appoynted in the same thrée Archbishops and. 28. Bishops M. Foxe To. 1. pag. 146. Demetrius who liued Anno. 191. was Bishop of Alexandria and of Egypt Euseb. libr. 6. cap. 1. 191. Cyprian who was Anno. 235. being Bishop of Carthage had vnder him Numidia 235. and Mauritania as he himselfe sayeth Lib. 4. Epist. 8. And Gregorie Nazianzene in an oration that he made of Cyprian sayth that he ruled and gouerned not onely the churches of Carthage and Aphrike but of Spayne also and of the whole East churche And for this cause doth Illyricus call him a Metropolitane the which name T. C. also doth giue vnto him in his Replie Pag. 95. sect 2. Dionysius called Alexandrinus who lyued Anno. 250. béeyng Bishop of Alexandria 250. hadde also vnder his iurisdiction all the Churches in Pentapolis as Athanasius testifyeth in a certainepistle Apol. 2. and yet hadde these Churches their proper Bishop as Eusebius dothe witnesse lib. 7. cap. 26. Wherefore the Bishoppe of Alexandria did gouerne them as Archebishop Gregorie béeing Bishop did gouerne all the Churches thorowe Pontus An. 270 270. Eus. lib. 7. cap. 14. Epiphanius li. 2. to 2. haeri 68. maketh mention of one Peter who liued An. 304. whom be calleth Archbishop of Alexandria and declareth that Meletius then Bishop in Egypt 304. was vnder him where also he hath these words Hic enim mos obtinet vt Alexandriae Episcopus totius Aegypti ac Thebaidis Mariotaeque ac Lybiae Ammonicaeque ac Mariotidis ac Pentapolis ecclesiasticam habeat administrationem For this custome hath preuailed that the Bishop of Alexandria should haue the Ecclesiasticall gouernment of all Egypt Thebai Mariota Lybia Ammonica Mariotis and Pentapolis And haere 69. he sayth Quotquot enim ecclesiae in Alexandri cat olicae ecclesiae sunt sub vno Archiepiscopo sunt For all the Churches in Alexandria that be Catholike are vnder one Archebishop The same Epiphanius in the same place doth call Meletius Archbishop of Egypt 304. but yet he sayth that he was subiect to the Archbishop of Alexandria And this Meletius liued also Anno. 304. The Councell of Nice An. 330. in the. 4. Canon sayth that the confirmation of Bishops 3 0. doth pertein to the Metropolitane of euery prouince and in the. 6. mention is made of Metropolitanes to be in euery prouince and that sec ndùm antiquum morem according to the olde custome And it is further sayde that the Bishop of Alexandria hath the regiment of Libya and Pentapolis in Egypt In the. 6. 37. Canons of the secōd Councell of Arelat it is decréed that no Bishop may be ordeined without the consent of the Metropolitane nor any thing to be attempted 335. against the great Synode of the Metropolitane The Councell of Antioch in the. 9. Canon willeth y t in euery prouince y e Bishops be subiect to their Metropolitane bishop which hath y e care of the whole prouince c. And in that Canon is this clause also Secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam 344. according to the auncient rule appointed by our forefathers Athanasius was Archbishop of Alexandria and had iurisdiction ouer the rest of the clergie to whom also Mariotes was subiect Atbana apo 2. Amphilochius Metropolitane of Lycaonia gouerned y ◠who le coūtry Theod. lib. 4. ca. 11. Zozomene li. 7. ca. 19. writeth that though there be many cities in Scythia yet they haue but one Bishop Aurelius bishop of Carthage in the councell of Aphrica sayth that he had the ouersight and care of many churches Ambrose li. de dig sacer ca. 5. maketh mētion of Archbishops he himself was a Metropolitane hauing charge and gouernment of many churches as the authors of the Centuries testifie in their fourth Centurie Simeon was Archbishop of Seleucia Zozo lib. 2. cap. 8. he liued about the tyme of the Nicene Councell Basile Metropolitane of Capadocia Zozo lib. 3. cap. 16. In the councel of Constātinople which is one of the. 4. general Councels in the. An. 38 and. 5. Canons this authoritie regimēt of Primates Metropolitanes Archbishops is conteine Which thing also Socrates doth note in the same Councell lib. 5. cap. 8. In the. Counce l of Carthage Canon 12. c. it is euident that in euerie Prouince An. 415. there was a primate In the councell of Chalcedon Flauianus is called Archbishop of Constantinople Dioscorus An. 453. Archbishop of Alexandria Leo Archbishop of Rome and the authorities of these offices and degrées there in diuers pointes specified In the first Canon of the councel of Ephesus it may manifestly be gathered y t all An. 468. other Bishops of y e same Prouince wer then subiect to their Metropolitane Bishop Hierome ad Rusticum Monachū sayth Singuli ecclesiarum Episcopi singuli Archipresbyteri singuli archidiaconi c. I omit his other places ad Lucif ad Titum c. Ambrose in 4 d Ephe. sayth that all orders be in a Bishop bicause he is primus sacerdos hoc est princeps sacerdotum the chief Priest that is Prince of priestes Augustine in his questions in vetas nouum test cap 101. sayth Quid est Episcopus nisi primus presbyter hoc est Summus sacerdos Chrysostome being Archbishop of Cōstantinople did also gouern the Churches in Thracia Asia and Pontus Tbeodo lib. 5. cap. 28 The authors of the Centuries affirme the same and call him Archbishop Cent. 5. cap. 10. Theodorete being bishop of Cyrus had vnder his gouernment 800. Churches as he himselfe t stifieth in his Epistle to Leo. Gennadius Bishop of Constantinople writeth to the Bishop of Rome thus Curet Rufsi libr. 1. cap. 29. sanctitas tua vniuersas tuas custodias tibique subiectos Episcopos Infinite testimonies and examples there are of this sorte and no man that is of any reading can be ignorant but that these degrées of superioritie and this kynd of regiment hath bin in the Churche continually euen from the Apostles tyme. M. Bucer vpon the fourthe to the Ephes. sheweth that these de rees in the churche Bishop Archbishop Metropolitane Primate Patriarke be not onely moste auntient but also necessarie M. Caluine in his Instit. cap. 8. Sect. 52. vpon the place of Hierome in the Epistle ad Euagriu sayth that in the old tyme there was to euery citie apointed acertain region Prouince or Dioces Quae presbyteros indè sumeret velut corpori illius ecclesia accenseretur and that
y ◠same also was vnder the Bishop of the citie Quod si amplior erat ager qui sub eius episcopatu erat quà m vt sufficere omnibus episcopi munijs vbique possit per ipsum agrum designabantur certis locis presbyteri qui in minoribùs negotijs eius vices obirent eos vocabant borepiscopos quòd per ipsam prouinciam episcopum representabant M. Beza lib. conf cap. 7 calleth the names of Archbishops Bishops c. Holie names for thus he sayth That Pastors in proces of tyme were distinct into Metropolitanes Bishops and those whome they nowe call Curates that is such as be appoynted to euery Parishe was not in the respect of the ministerie of the worde but rather in respecte of iurisdiction and discipline Therfore concerning the office of preaching the word and administring the Sacramentes there is no difference betwixte Archebishops Bishops and Curates for all are bounde to feede their flocke with the same breade and therefore by one common name in the Scriptures they bee called Pastours and Bishops But what impudencie is there in those men meaning the Papistes to vse those holie names and therfore to glorie of the succession of the Apostles and true Bishops In the same chapter he maketh two kynds of degrées vsed in the Papistical Churche the one vnknowne to the Apostles to the primitine church the other taken out of the word of God and from the primitiue Church In this second order he placeth Archebishops Curates Can ns Seniors or Ministers Archedeacons Deanes Subdeacons Clearkes But what should I stand longer in this matter There is not one writer of credit y t denieth this superioritie to haue bin always among the clergie and these degrées to come euen from the best tyme of the Church since the Apostles and so be both most auncient and generall Wherfore I can not but compt suche as denie so manifest a truthe eyther vnlearned and vnskilful persons or else verie wranglers and men desirous of contention A briefe comparison betvvixt the Bishops of our tyme and the Bishops of the primitiue Churche Chap. 8 I Knowe that comparisons be odious neither would I vse them at this tyme but that I am thervnto as it wer compelled by the vncharitable dealing of T. C. who by comparing the Bishops of our time with the Bishops in the olde Churche hath soughte by that meanes to disgrace them if it were possible I may peraduenture in this point sée me to some to flatter but the true iudgement therof I leaue to him that knoweth the secretes of the heart In the meane tyme I will affirme nothing which is not euident to all those that be learned diuines and not ouer ruled with affection My compar ion shal consist in these thrée points Truthe of doctrine Honestie of lise and right vse of externall things Touching the fyrst that is truth of doctrine I shall not néed much to labour For I think T. C. and his adherents wil not denie but that the doctrin taught professed by our Bishops at this day is much more perfect and sounder than it commonly was in any age after the Apostles time For the most part of the auncientest Bishops were deceyued with that grosse opinion of a thousande yeares after the resurrection wherein Euse. lib. 3. cap. 39. 35. the kingdome of Christe should here remaine vpon earth The fautors whereof were called M llenarij Papias who liued in Polycarpus and Ignatius his tyme béeing Bishop of erusalem was the first author of this errour and almost all the moste auncient fat ers were infected with the same Cyprian and the whole Councel of Carthage erred in rebaptisatiō Cyprian himself To. con 1. Lib. epi. 2. ep 3. also was greatly ouerseene in making it a matter so necessarie in the celebration of the Lords Supper to haue water mingled with wyne which was no doubt at y ◠tyme cōmon to moe than to him but the other opinion which he confuteth of vsyng water only is more absurd and yet it had at that tyme patrones among the Bishops Howe greatly were almost all the Bishops learned writers of the greke church yea and the Latines also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merites of inuocation of Sainctes suche lyke Surely you are not able to recken in any age since the Apostles tyme any companie of Bishops that taught helde so sound perfect doctrine in all poynts as the Bishops of England do at this tyme. If you speake of Ceremonies of the syncere administration of the sacraments you shall finde the like difference for compare the cerenionies that Tertullian sapet lib. decoro mil. then to be vsed in the Churche about the Sacraments and otherwise or those that Basile reherseth Lib. de Sancto spi. or suche as we may reade to haue bin in S. Augustins tyme with those that we nowe reteine in this Churche and you can not but acknowledge that therin we are come to a far greater perfection I meane not to stande in particulars I thinke T. C. and his companions wil not contende with me in this poynt for if they doe it is but to maynteyncontention Seing then that in the truthe of doctrine which is the chief and principall point oure Bishops be not only comparable with the olde Bishops but in many degrées to be preferred before them we thinke there is tootoo great iniurie done vnto them and to this doctrine whiche they professe when as they are so odiously compared and so contemptuously intreated by T. C. and his Colleags 2 Touching honestie of life which is the second point I wil not say much I do not think but that therin they may be compared with the old Bishops also and in some points preferred euery age hath some imperfectiōs in it and the best men are most subiect to the slanderous tong Great contention ther was among the Bishops in the Councell of Nice insomuch that euen in the presence of the Emperour they ceased not to libell one against an other What bitternesse and cursing was there betwixt Epiphanius and Chrysostome what affectionate dealyng of Theophilus agaynste the same Chrysostome what iarring betwixt Hierome and Augustine But I wil not prosecute this Men be they neuer so godly yet they be men the cōm n sorte of people when they waxe wearie of the worde of God truely preached then doe they begin to depraue the true and chiefe ministers of the same 3 For the third poynt that is the vse of external things if the ishops nowe haue more land liuing than Bishops had then it is the blessing of God vpon his church and it is commodious for the state and time If any man abuse himself therin let him be reformed let not his fault be made a pretence to cloke a minde desirous to spoyle I sée not how those lands and liuings can be imployed to more bene ite of y e churche cōmoditie of the
cōmon welth honor of the Prince than they be nowe in state and cōdition wherin they remain Bishops shal not now need to liue by pilling polling Amb. de dig sacerd August lib. 3. aduer Permenìa as it séemed they did in Cyprians tyme for he complaineth therof Ser. de lapsis Nor as some did in Ambrose or Augustins They haue God be thanked liuing sufficient with out any such vnlawfull meanes and I doubt not but if their expenses shall be compared with their predecessors it shall appeare that they be according to the proportion that God hath limitted vnto them But an eye dimmed with malice or bente to the spoyle can sée nothing that may hinder the desired purpose God roote out of the hartes of men such rauening affections and gréedie desires Of the Communion Booke Tract 9. The generall faultes examined vvhervvith the publike Seruice is charged by T. C. Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Page 102. Sect. 2. Before I come to speak of prayers I wil treat of the faults that arecomitted almost throughout the whole Lyturgie and publike Seruice of the Churche of Englande whereof one is that whiche is often obiected by the authors of the Admonition that the forme of it is taken from the Churche of Antichriste as the reading of the Epistles and Gospels so cutte and mangled as the moste of the prayers the maner of ministring the Sacramentes of mariage of burial Confirmation translated as it were worde for worde sauing that the grosse errours and manifest impieties be taken away For although the formes and ceremonies whiche they vsed were not vnlawfull and that they conteyned nothyng whiche is not agreable to the worde of God whiche I would they did not yet notwithstanding neyther the worde of God nor reason nor the examples of the eldest Churches both Iewish and Christian doe permit vs to vse the same formes and ceremonies beyng neyther commaunded of God neyther suche as there maye not as good as they and rather better be established Io. Whitgifte In these woords are conteined two false principles the one is that the forme and manner of prayer vsed in the Churche of England is taken from the churche of Antichrist the other that it is not lawful to vse the same formes of prayer and ceremonies that the Papists did this latter I haue already proued to be otherwise in the beginning Tract 7. cap. 5 diui 3. 4. c. where I spake of Ceremonies and intend hereafter to answere such arguments as shal be vsed to proue the contrarie the first wil appeare to be most vntrue being manifest that such things as we now vse in the booke of Common prayer though some of them haue ben vsed in the time of Papistrie were appointed in the church by godlie and learned men before the Pope was Antichrist or the Church of Rome greatly corrupted as the reading of the Epistle and gospell whiche is of verie long continuance in the Church euen whilest the church of Rome was as yet in the principall points Reading of gospels and epistles verie auncient of doctrine pure being also chosen places of scriptures apt for the time and moste to edifying which no honest heart and godly disposed person can discommende If in the administration of the sacraments celebration of mariage burying of the dead confirmation those thyngs that are good and profitable be reteyned and the grosse errours and Things bused maye be vsed imp eties being taken a waye manifest impieties taken away as you say they be why do you then on this sort trouble y e church for vsing that which is good refusing that which is euill Is Papistrie so able to infect the word of God godlie prayers and profitable Ceremonies that they may not be vsed in the Church reformed the errours and impieties being taken away Why doe we call our churches reformed Churches rather than newly builded or as it were wholly transformed but that we reteyne whatsoeuer we fynd to The churche is reformed not transformed be good refuse or reforme that which is euill But of these matters more is to be spoken as occasion is offered Hytherto you vse but woordes whiche haue no weyghte without good and sounde reasons Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 3. For the worde of God I haue shewed before both by the example of the Apostles conforming the Gentiles vnto the Iewes in their ceremonies not contrarywise the Iewes to the Gentiles and by that the wisedome of God hath thought it a good way to kepe his people from the infection of idolatrie and superstition to seuer them from idolaters by outwarde ceremonies and therfore hath forbidden them to doe things which are in themselues verie lawfull to be don Io. Whitgifte What you haue spoken in any place of your booke cōcerning this matter is there answered wher it is spokē but you haue not as yet to my remēbrāce any wher shewed y t God euer hath forbidden his people to do things in themselues very lawfull to be done Tract 7. cap. 5 bycause the same were vsed by Idolaters I haue before proued the contrary both by the manifest words of the scripture and by the testimonie of Saint Augustine and diuers other learned writers Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 4. Now I will adde this further that when as the Lord was carefull to seuer them by ceremonies from other nations yet was he not so carefull to seuer them from any as from the Egyptians amongst whome they liued and from those nations which were next neighbours vnto them bycause from them was the greatest feare of infection Therefore by this constant and perpetuall wisedome which God vseth to kepe his people from idolatrie it followeth that the religion of God should not only in matter and substance but also as farre as may be informe and fashion differ from that of the idolaters and especially the Papists which are round about vs amongst vs. (*) An vnadu sed 〈◊〉 For in deede it were more safe for vs to conforme our indifferent ceremonies to the Turkes which are arre off than to the papists which are so neare Io. Whitgifte The Egyptians and Idolatrous gentiles neither worshipped nor preteuded to The Gētiles and Papists not like in all respects worship the God of Israell and therefore no maruell though in rites and ceremonies they were vtterly seuered from them but the Papists eyther worship or pretend to worship the same God which we do and therefore there is no suche cause in all pointes of rites and ceremonies to differ from them And it is most vntrue that The Iewes and the Gentiles in some respect agreed in ceremo ies God so seuered his people from the Egyptians or other nations néere adioyning that they had nothing common with them or no ceremonies like vnto theirs for they were like in many things touching the externall forme The Gentiles had
offended neyther did the priestes or prophets thrust themselues into that busines but so farre foorth as perteyned to admonitions and reprehensions which they applyed out of the word of God according to the qualitie of the offences Therefore the same must be obserued in the new Testament neyther is it needefull that the ministers of the word should haue a peculiar senate or that they should chalenge vnto themselues by any meanes those things that belong to the ciuil Magistrate M. Gualters meaning is that the ministers of the word cannot chalenge the authoritie of pu shing vice otherwise than by admonitions and reprehensions that is that they cannot chalenge this kinde of gouernment of a Seigniorie by the word of God bycause all such authoritie is committed to the ciuill Magistrate So that if Byshops haue it they must haue it from him as it is in this Churche of England And therfore wel sayth M Gualter in the same place there may be appoynted such as shall haue the correction of manners in such countries where the ordinarie magistrates cannot do all themselues but those must be appoynted by the magistrate and do all at his commaundement and not vsurp any distinct Iurisdiction from the ordinarie magistrate The second poynte to be noted is when he sayth that Christian princes must subiecte The prince made subiect to Seniors by the Replyer themselues to the Churche submitte their scepters throw downe their crownes before the Churche c. the whiche kind of speach the Pope himselfe vseth and vnder the same pretence hath troden kings vnder his féete And although T. C. seeme to mislike this excessiue vsing of authoritie by the Pope yet woulde be haue the same iurisdiction to remaine to his Seniors s il whome be vnderstādeth by the name of the Church as appeareth in that which he spake before of these words of Christ Dic Ecclesiae so Pag. 140. in the latter end that he woulde haue the Prince subiect hir selfe to the Seniors of the Churche and throw downe hir crowne before them that is to be con ent to be ruled and gouerned to be punished and corrected to be excommunicated and absolued by their discretion and at their pleasure This no doubt is his meaning neyther can it otherwise be for if this kind of gouernment be once admitted the Prince must néedes be of some peculiar Church and congregation and therefore subiect to the Seigniorie of that Churche except it please master Pastor who is the chéefe and the rest of hys neighbours the parishioners to elect the Prince into the Seigniorie and make hym one of them and yet must the Pastor be his superior and haue authoritie to cal him to consultations and to direct him in matters of discipline and whether he will or no he must be ordered and ruled by the Pastor and most part of the Seniors And yet now I remember my selfe the Prince cannot be of the Seigniorie for T. C. al ttle Pa. 146. sect 1. after graūteth that his Seniors be no lay men but Ecclesiastic ll so that indeede the Prince must be a seruant no master a subiect no Prince vnder gouernment no gouernoure in matters perteyning to the Church And least any man should thinke that this is but my collection though it be most Gualter true and I will iustify it so to be I haue she wed before that whiche M. Gualter affirmeth vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. as he also doth vpon the. 12. Chapter of the same Epistle saying there be some which according to the example of the old and primitiue Church wold haue Seniors and an Ecclesiasticall senate that should haue authoritie ouer magistrates if they at any time do not their duty And in deede this is one of the chiefe causes why our men would so gladly haue a Seigniorie for they would gladly be in hand with magistrates to make them stoupe and bow downe vnto them The third point is in this that he would haue the gouernment of the common wealth The Replyer seeketh the uerthrow of monarchtes and the common wealth it selfe framed to the Churche and the gouernmente thereof as the hangings are made fit for the house whereby as it may seeme he would haue all monarchies ouerthrowen and reduced eyther to a popular or an Aristocraticall estate for these two kinds of gouernment he only alloweth of in the Church as it appeareth by that which he hath thereof oltener than once or twise spoken before Now the lawes of man will beare this I knowe not but I am well assured the Christ the Gospell o enin les so 〈◊〉 law of God will not suffer it For Christe came not to ouerthrow kinds of gouernment and ciuill policie neyther doth the Gospell dissolue kingdomes for S. Peter sayth 1. Epist. 2. Proinde subditiestote cuiuis ordinationi umanae propter dominum siue Reg 1. 1. Pet. 2. c. Submit yourselues vnto all manner ordinance of man for the Lords sake whether it be vnto the king as to the superior And so Paule 1. Tim. 2. to the exhorte him to pray for 1. Timo. 2. kings which he would not haue done if the state of a kingdome could not agrée with the state of the Church But I will not amplify this matter Let such consider of it to whome it doth specially perteine This is your reason to proue that the gouernmente of the common wealth ought to be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche bycause there was a Church before there was a common wealth but I denie the argumente and your similitude of house and hangings dothe not proue it All the Examples in the Scripture of common wealthes being also the Churches of God declare the contrary neyther can you she we any state altered in thys manner but only among the Anabaptists Of like weyghtis your other reasō which is this Good men that is the Church are as it were the foundation of the worlde the common wealth is builded vpon that foundation therefore the gouernmente of the common wealth must be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche This gere is to subtile for euery body to vnderstand but the argumente is without all fashion and it is neyther true in matter nor forme For how pr e y u that good menne are the foundation of the worlde The fyrste menne were gréeuous transgressoures the moste of them The euyll menne in multitude and worldely prosperitie haue from tyme to tyme in the worlde ouergrowen them Moreouer the Churche visible conteyneth bothe good and badde and so doth the common wealth and therefore it can not be sayde to be buylded of good menne more than of euill men To conclude if all this were true yet dothe not the argumente followe For the foundation giueth strength but it giueth not the whole forme or fashion to that whyche is buylded vppon it For a man maye make alterations in his house though he doe not once moue or
election consequently y e throwing out it hath bene shewed before that together with the church the Eldership hath the principal swaye For y e decision of controuersies when they rise it may apeare in the. 15. of the Actes y t the Presbyterie or Eldership of the church hath to determine of that also Now it remaineth here that wheras M. Doctor saith that the excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoring to the church again doth perteme only to the minister y e I shew that the presbyterie or eldership the whole church also hath interest in the excommunication consequently in the absolution or restoring vnto the church But here by the waye it is to be (*) 〈◊〉 not worthy the noting noted that in saying that it belongeth to y e minister he confesseth y e disorder in our church wherin this power is taken away from the minister and giuen to the Byshop and his officers Io. Whitgifte Of Election of ministers so of their reiection throwing out sufficient hath bin spoken Tract 3. before your manner of electing by better reasons confuted than it was by you proued for the decisions of controuersies when they arise it may appeare in the. 15. of y e Acts that the best way is to call Synodes Councels of learned mē as it was there practised not to cōmit such matters to the pastor of euery seuerall parish certaine of his neighbours whom you call the Seigniorie for if it had bin so what néeded Paule and Barnabas haue takē so long a iourney frō Antioche to Ierusalē for y e deciding of their cōtrouersies séeing y t they the Seigniorie if there had bin any such might haue ended the same at home in Antioche This place vndoubtedly ouerthroweth your Seigniorie except now you wil take it as it is in ecclesiastical writers oftētimes takē for a Synode or cōuocatiō of bishops priests so y e not your Seigniorie which is in euery parishe but general or prouincial Coūcels Synodes must haue y e deciding of cōtrouersies else as I sayd before why should Paule and Barnabas come from Antioche to Ierusalem to haue their controuersies determined Your note by the way is not worth a rushe for when I say y t the execution of discipline is onely committed to the ministers of the word you cannot therevpon cōclude that euery minister hath authoritie to exercise it in the church It is one thing to saye only ministers haue authoritie to excōmunicate to saye that all ministers haue authoritie so to do only ministers may be Bishops yet all ministers be not Bishops only Lawyers may be Iudges yet all Lawyers be not Iudges only citezens may be Aldermen Sherifes Maiors yet all be not so wherfore by the waye here you ouersot your selfe And yet I thinke that all ministers haue power to excommunicate if the Church thinke it good to committe that authoritie vnto them Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 146. Sect. 4. Now that this charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one or to the minister but chiefly to the Eldership and Pastor it appeareth by that which the authors of the Admonition alleage out of S. Mathew which place I haue proued before to be necessarily vnderstanded of the elders of the 18. Chap. churche Io. Whitgifte I haue tolde you before how that place of Mathew is to be vnderstanded what it is to tell the Church namely either to reproue the partie openly before the congregation or else to complaine to such as haue authoritie in the church to whome y e executing of discipline is committed which is by the order of the church of Englande the Bishop And therefore the Bishop alone both by the lawes of God and of this churche of England which hath giuen vnto him by consent in Parliament that authoritie may exercise this discipline Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition Then it was sayd tel l Math. 18. 17 the church now it is spoken complayne to my Lordes grace Primate and Metropolitane of all Englande or to his inferiour my Lorde Byshop of the Diocesse if not to hym shewe the Chauncellour or Officiall or Commissarie or Doctour Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 135. Sect. 1. As it was saide then so ought you and may you say now in priuate offences yf priuate admonitions wyll not serue then muste you declare them to the church either by reprehending of them publikely before the whole congregation if you be called therevnto for that is Churche signifieth those that haue authoritie in the churche one kynde of telling the churche or else by complayning to suche as haue authoritie in the church for in that place of Mathewe as all learned interpretours both olde and newe do determine the churche signifieth such as haue authoritie in the churche Therefore when you complayne to my Lordes grace Lorde Bishop of the Dioces or their Chauncellors Commissaries c. You tell the church that is suche as be appointed to be publike Magistrates in the churche according to the very true sense and interpretation of that place T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. vlt. It is moste absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page that by the church is vnderstāded either my Lordes grace or the Byshop of the Dioces or the Chauncellor or Commissarie And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these he may be well sayde to complayne vnto the churche whiche is the more vntollerable for that beyng so straunge a saying and suche as may astonyshe at that heare it he neyther confirmeth it by no reason by no lyke phrase of scripture by no authoritie of any Godly or approued wryter olde or newe whiche notwithstanding he seeketh for so diligently and turneth the commentaries in his studie so paynefully whē he can haue but one against twenty and but a sillable where he cannot haue a sentence Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed sufficient authoritie for my saying euen the consent of all learned interpreters who by the church in that place vnderstande such as haue chiefe authoritie in the church which in this church of Englād as I haue sayd are bishops Chrysostome Chryso t. Hom. 61. in Math. sayth as much as I do so that it néede not to séeme so straunge that it should astonishe all thee heare it his wordes be these Dic ecclesiae Praesulibus scilicet Praesidentibus Tell the churche that is the Prelates and Presidents But you thinke to ouerlode me with vnséemely wordes howbeit that will not carry away the cause I am so vsed to them by you and yours both in speache and writing that I estéeme them now I thanke God as I do the dust of my féete If I seeke the writers so diligently and tourne the commentaries in my studie so painfully why do you so oft accuse me of ignorance wante of reading taking my pleasure Ex ore tuo te iudico c. mendacem
opiniō touching Musculus the authoritie of y e ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters briefly but plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall persones and we call them Papistes will not commit to the magistrate any further authoritie in religion than to be the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall lawes that the ecclesiasticall pollicie maye remayne immouable wherefore they deny him to haue authoritie in that he is a magistrate to make or to publyshe any Ecclesiasticall lawes bicause suche things perteine to those that do represent the churche whose decrees and constitutions must bee mainteyned and defended by the authoritie of the magistrate This I thought good to nete before I come to answering of his argumentes that al men may vnderstand that I no otherwise charged them in this point than they haue well deserued neither haue I as yet detected all that they peruersly thinke of the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate one thing I praye you marke that here is one note A note of Anabaptisme practised by y e Rep r. practised that I haue ascribed to the Anabaptistes in my (*) Pag. 2. sect 2. Answere to the Admonition for there I shewe that the Anabaptistes accuse the true ministers of the Gospell for attributing as they saye to much to the ciuill magistrate The same doth T. C. charge me with in this place But I will nowe come to his argumentes The. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 154 Sect 1. This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the seconde booke of the Chronicles in the. 19. chap. and in the. 8. and. 11. verses hee shall see that there were a You alleage the reasons of the Papilies to the same purpose with them number appointed for the matters of the lord which were priests Leuites and there were other also appointed for the kings affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongest which were the Leuites which being more in number than could be applied to the vse of the churche were sette ouer ciuill causes being therfore moste fitte for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the polylike lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please him that the making of orders and giuing of iudgementes in ciuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and churche matters perteyned vnto diuers persons whiche distinction the writer to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth (*) that the Priest was ordeyned in thinges perteyning to God Hebr. 5. Io. Whitgifte Yes I bothe knowe this distinction and haue hearde of it for I haue redde it The 〈◊〉 vseth the same distinction reasons with the Papistes in the bookes of the Papistes as I haue shewed before I haue hearde also this same place of the. 2. Chro. 19. alleaged to confirme it For Saunders in his booke before named dothe vse it to the same ende and purpose that you do that is to proue the Ciuill Magistrate to haue no authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders his woordes be these Likewyse Iosaphat kinge of Iuda distinguishing bothe the Saunders li. 2. cap. 1. fol. 57. powers sayde to the Leuites and Priestes Amarias the Prieste and your Bishop shall gouerne in those thinges whiche perteyne to God But Zabadias c. beholde something perteyned to the Bishop other somethinges to the office of a Kinge The same place also dothe Harding vse to the selfe same ende agaynst my Lorde of Sarisburie fol. 118. of the defense of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande from whome I beléeue you haue borrowed it Do I not say truely that you iumpe with the Papistes do you not both conspire agaynst the Ciuill Magistrate and are you not content to vse theyr very woordes and reasons greate ado there is agaynst me bycause I vse a place of Cyprian for the authoritie of an Archbishop ouer his prouince whiche the Papistes abuse for the authoritie of the Pope ouer all Christendome and here you vse the reason not onely of Papistes but of Traytours to the same ende with them that is agaynst that lawfull iurisdiction whiche wée haue giuen to our Prince and whiche hath hetherto bene maynteyned bothe by preaching and by burning But to lette this reste in the consideration of the Reader I will in fewe The place of the Replier agaynst himselfe woordes declare that this place maketh flatte agaynst you for who placed those Leuites and Priestes in Ierusalem for the iudgement and cause of the Lorde or who prescribed vnto them what they shoulde do or who gaue to them that authoritie did not Iehosaphat the texte is playne Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment bothe in thinges perteyning to God and in thinges perteyning to the common wealth but for better execution of them the one he did committee to be executed by Amaria the Prieste the other by Zabadiah a ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Quéenes Maiestie beyng supreme gouernour in all causes bothe Ecclesiasticall and Temporall committeth the hearing and iudgyng of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Archbyshops and Bishops and of Temporall matters to the Lorde Chauncellour and other iudges neyther can you any more conclude that Iehosaphat had no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes bycause he made Amarias the Prieste iudge in the same than you can that he had nothing to do in Temporall affayres bycause he appoynted also Zabadiah to heare determine them For if this reason be good the Quéene of Englande hath nothing to do with Ecclesiasticall matters bycause shée hath made the Archbishops and Bishops iudges in them then is this as good hir Maiestie hath no authoritie in Ciuill matters bycause she hath committed the same to the Lorde Chauncellour and other Iudges Thus you see howe both the Papistes and you are deceyued in one and she selfe same reason I will but note by the way that the Leuites beyng Ecclesiasticall persons had Leuites being Ecclesiasticall persons had to d in ciuill matters to do in Ciuill matters as the woordes of the texte verse 11. moste manifestly declare as for your shifte of the number of them beyng more than coulde be applyed to the vse of the Churche it is but your owne and therefore to simple to answere so playne and direct a place of the Scripture That in the fifte to the Hebrewes is farre from the purpose for the Apostle in the same sentence declareth what those things perteyning to God be Euen to offer bothe giftes and sacrifices for him I thinke you do not so malitiously reporte of vs as the Papistes do that we giue to the Prince power to minisier the Sacramentes and to preache the woorde if you do not this place can by no meanes serue your turne The. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. This might M. Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble Emperour Constantine attributeth Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Const. epi. ad Euseb.
it be written redde or preached by man for the spirite of God is the Author of it man is but the instrument The rest of your proofes taken frō the vse of the Church as you say be all ab authoritate negatiuè and most of them ab authoritate hominum whiche kinde of argument your self haue before vtterly condēned I haue oftentimes could you that an argument à non facto ad non ius it is M. Zuinglius and other mens iudgement as well as mine is good neyther in diuine nor yet in humane thinges So far as I can learne Ionathan the Calday Paraphrast florished not in Christes Ionathan the Cald y paraphrast before christes time time as you say but. 42. yeares before Christ was borne and I thinke there is none of these Paraphrastes so faithfull in interpreting but that they misse in some places you can not but acknowledge that one good Sermon or Homilie of some learned mans well plainely redde to the people may edifie them more than the reading of these Paraphrastes And yet I suppose you knowe that the Iewes haue those Paraphrastes as yet redde in their Churches wherefore hitherto if you haue spoken any thing it is against your selfe But you say that this practise continued still in the Churches of god c. and you proue it by Iustine Martyr bycause he mentioneth nothing read in the churche but Monuments of the Prophetes and Ipostles Concerning your proofe I haue declared already of what force it is being drawne ab authoritate humana negatiuè Now that this practise continued not still in the Church you shall easily perceyue if you peruse that which Eusebius writeth The epistle of Ciement reade in the churche out of an Epistle of Dionysius Corinthius to Soter Byshop of Rome where he writeth after this sorte And in this epistle there is mention of an Epistle of Clemēt written to the Corinthians declaring that according to the olde custome it was read in the Euseb. lib. 4 ▪ Cap. 2 Church For thus he sayth we haue this day celebrated the holy day of the Lorde wherein we read your Epistle whiche we will alwayes read for admonition sake in like sorte as Dionysius liued about the yeare 147. the former epistle written to vs from Clement The Authors of the Centuries writing of this Dionysius thinke it not vnlike that his Epistles were also read in the Churche bicause Eusebius calleth them Catholicas Catholike Their woordes be these Non videtur prae ereundum quòd Eusebius basce epistolas Catholicas vocet fortè quia in Ecc esijs Cent. 2. cap. 10. piorum solitae sunt legi sicut Clementis This thing woulde not be omitted that Eusebius calleth these epistles Catholike peraduenture bicause they were wonte to be read in the Churches of the faythfull as the Epistle of Clement was And this may testifie of the practise of the Churche in Iustinus Martyrs time better than your negatiue Concil vas La. 4. argument And of the practise since the. 4. Can. Concil Vasens will giue sufficient testimonie where it is decreed that if the ministers be let by infirmitie or sickenesse the Homilies Homilies of fathers read in the church of the fathers should be read of the Deacons Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 3. But of readyng Homilyes in the Churche I haue some thing Bucers opinion of ho lies in the churche spoken before nowe it shall be sufficient onely to set downe Master Bucers iudgement of this matter in his notes vpon the Communion booke whiche is this It is better that vvhere there lackes to expounde the Scriptures vnto the people there shoulde be Godly and learned Homilyes redde vnto them rather than they shoulde haue no exhortation at all in the administration of the Supper And a litle after There be too fevve Homilies and to fevve poyntes of Religion taught in them vvhen therefore the Lorde shall blesse this kingdome vvith some excellent Preachers lette them be commaunded to make mo Homilyes of the principall poynts of Religion vvhich may be redde to the people by those Pastors that can not make better themselues T. C. Pag. 158. Tovvardes the ende And as for Master Bucers authoritie I haue shewed before how it ought to be weyghed and here also it is suspitious for that it is sayde that his aduise was that when the Lord should blesse the realme with mo learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilies which should be redde in y e church vnto the people As if M. Bucer did not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme which were able to make Homilies so many as the volume of thē might easily haue exceeded the volume of the Bible if the multitude of Homilies would haue done so much good And if the authoritie of Master Bucer beare so great a swaye with Master Doctor that vpon his credite onely without eyther Scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those which are nowe he dare thrust into the churche Homilies then the authorities of the most auncient and best councels ought to haue bene considered which haue giuen charge that nothing should be redde in the church but onely the Canonicall Scriptures Io. Whitgifte They are M. Bucers woordes in déede neyther is there any cause why you should suspect them so to be And it is not his iudgemēt only but other learned mens Ridleys iudgement of homilies in the churche also and namely that famous man D. Ridlies Bishop of London in the treatise before rehearsed Wherein thus he speaketh of the Churche of Englande that was in King Edwards time It had also holy and wholesome Homilies in commendation of the M. Foxe to 2. Pag. 1940. principall vertues which are commended in Scripture and likewise other Homilies agaynst the most pernicious and capitall vices that vseth alas to reygne in this Church of England And truly these authorities if I had no other reason preuaile more with me than all that you or any of your parte had sayd or is able to say to the contrarie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Lin. 4. For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea that nothing should be redde in the churche but the Canonicall bookes of the olde and newe Testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterwarde 59. Can. conc Laodi rom 1. concil as corruptions grewe in the church ▪ it was permitted that homilies might be redde by the Deacon when the minister was sicke and could not preach and it was also in an other Councell of Carthage permitted that the martyres lyues might be redde in the church but besides the euill successe that those decrecs had vnder preteuce whereof the Popish Legende and Gregories Concil vasense 1. to 4. tom cōcil 6. c concil Colon. parte 2. homilies c. creptin that vse and custome was controlled
zeale is euen that that Zuinglius doth charge the Anabaptists with when he sayth Ira est non spiritus quo se venditant The ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets c. In this portion entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren ther is no great matter conteined worthie of answering only the author doth excuse himselfe for taking vpon him that exhortation moueth the Bishops to deale brotherly with the authors of the Admonition First bicause they be their rethren secondly bicause they ought first to haue discouered vnto the world by the word of God howe truely or falsely they haue written Thyrdely bycause they do but disclose the disorders of our Churche of England and humbly desyre a reformation of the same according to the rule of Gods worde c. Fourthly that Papists lye abroade in their dioces vntouched c. Fiftly that many lewde light bookes and balades flye abroade printed not onely withoute reprehension but Cum priuilegio Likewise in y e same booke the author seemeth to iustifie the Admonitiō to condemne the lordship and authoritie of Bishops ascribing thervnto the stay hinderance of their pretenced reformation charging them after a sorte with mangling the Scriptures of God and with snaring the godly with such lawes as were purposely made for the wicked These be the principall contentes of that booke The first reason that is That they be their brethren might as wel be alleaged Bretheren may be punished for the impunitie of Anabaptists Arrians and such like who pretend the sinceritie of gods word and would be counted brethren yea it might as well be alleaged for many other malefactours who be also brethren and yet must not therfore escape vnpunished for their offences Shall not the Prince and the magistrate execute lawes vpon suche as breake them bicause they be their brethren in Chryst Beware of such doctrine and let not affection in priuate mens causes carie you headlong into publike errors But I thinke you are in this pointe deceiued for howsoeuer we accompte them our brethren yet they accompt not vs their brethren neyther will they acknowledge vs so to be as some of them both in open speache and manifest signes haue declared And therfore when the Bishops deale with them they deale with suche as disdayn to be called their brethren T. C. Page 177. Sect. 3. After M. Doctor confuteth his owne shadow for the exhortatiō doth not require that the name of a brother should deliuer the authors of the Admonition from punishment if they deserued it but desi eth that it might worke some moderation of the rigoure of it and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition take not them for theyr brethren yes verily although vnbrotherly handled and for fathers too and so both loue them and reuerence them vntill which we hope will not be they shall manyfestly for the vpholdi g of their owne kingdome and profite refuse to haue Christe to reigne ouer vs in whome this fatherhoode and brotherhoode doth consist Io. Whitgifte Let the readers iudge whether it be one of their reasons or no let them also consider that which I haue before alledged out of the second Admonition pag. 35. then tell me whether they take vs for brethren or no. Can you so well please your selues in your own platforme y t except we admit it we refuse Christ to reigne ouer vs I trust he hath reigned ouer vs hitherto and shall doo to the end though your platforme be sunke to the bottome of the sea An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets To their second reason I answer that I thinke they haue bin talked with and heard what they haue to say for them selues but their hautie mindes and good opinion conceyued of themselues will not suffer them to see their errours In this reason you alledge nothyng for them but that which may also be alledged for the Papists or any other sect of heretikes But it is an old saying Turpe est doctori c. How hapneth it that they themselues haue first defamed not the Bishops only but also this whole Church of England with publike libells before they haue vsed brotherly and priuate conference This is to espie a moate in an other mannes eye c. How true the thirde reason is may appeare in my answere to their Admonition but how true soeuer it were yet their disordered disclosyng by vnlawful meanes that is by libelling deserueth as much punishment as hitherto they haue had for the truth nedeth no such vngodlie meanes of disclosyng If Papists goe abroade vnpunished when by lawe they maye be touched surely it is a greate faulte and can not bee excused and I praye God it maye bee better looked to But thys is no good and sufficient reason for the impunitie of other Bicause some Papistes be not punished shal therfore no disordered persons be punished Or bicause some in authoritie winke at some Papists shall therfore no lawes be executed towardes any offenders Surely touchyng malice agaynst the forme and state of this oure Churche I see no greate difference betwixt them and the Papists and I think verily they both conspire together The same answere I make to youre first reason shall no booke be suppressed bicause some be not It is a faulte I confesse to suffer lewde Ballades and Bookes touchyng Ballets manners But it were a greater faulte to suffer bookes and Libells disturbing the peace of the Churche and defacing true religion Concerning the titles and offices of Bishops I haue spoken sufficiently before In manglyng and wrestyng of the Scriptures none offende so muche as doe the authors of the Admonition who in that point are comparable to the Papistes as may be seene by the learned and diligent Reader If they whom they terme godly do willingly offende against such lawes as were made for the wicked they are to be punished according to the lawes neyther are they to be spared bicause they pretende Godlinesse bre keth no lawe godlynesse for there is no godlinesse in breaking of lawes The thirde scroule called An Exhortation to the Bishoppes and to theyr Cleargie to answere a little booke c. is satisfyed I trus e for I haue as it is there required answered the short and peeuishe Pamphlet as they tearme it I haue disclosed their double and corrupt dealing theyr wringing of the Scriptures to serue their turne and haue declared the true sense meaning of thē I haue not bumbast d it with rethorike but in plain simple maner vttered my iudgement according to uncient fathers contemned o ned men the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures notwithstanding I haue in sundrie pointes declared the vse of the Church of Christ in tymes past and do vse the testimonie of auncient Councels and learned fathers whiche these vnlearned men vnlearnedly contemne a thing not heard of in any age or Churche nor allowed of
eightenth chapter saith that equall power and function is giuen vnto all the ministers of of the Church and that from the beginning no one preferred himselfe to an other sauing only that for order some one did call them togither propound the matters that were to be consulted of and gathered the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the confession in the. 17. chapter be these truely Christe is present with his Churche and is a lyuing head who straightly forbad his Apostles and their successors to chalenge the primacie or supremacie in the Church This the confession speaketh of such primacie supremacie as the Byshop of Rome doth chalenge ouer the whole Church for in that place it onely speaketh of the Popes vsurped authoritie and not one worde of that superioritie among Ministers which is now in controuersie That which the confession affirmeth in the eightenth chapter maketh nothing against any superioritie allowed in this Churche of Englande for we acknowledge that there is one equall power and function of al Ministers but yet superioritie also to be among them for order sake and the same doth the Confession acknowledge in plaine and manifest woords euen in this place by you alledged whereby also that distinction is verifyed whiche you séeme so greatly to mislyke to witte that there is an equalitie of all Ministers of Gods worde quoad ministerium touching the ministerie but degrées and superioritie among them quoad ordinem politiam touching order and gouernment T. C. Musculus in his common places in the chapter of the offices of the ministers of the worde saith that in the Apostolike Church the ministers of the worde were none aboue another nor subiecte to any head or president and mislyketh the setting vp of any one in higher degree than another And further he saith vpon the seconde chapter of the seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians that the honor of a Bishop being taken from the rest of the ministers and giuē to one was the first step to the papacie howsoeuer in other places he speaketh otherwise Io. Whitgifte Musculus in those wordes of his common places speaketh of superioritie quoad officium potestatem touching office and power for these wordes dothe he vse he speaketh not of superioritie touching order and pollicie whiche is nowe in question The same power is in all ministers of the worde of bynding losing and administring the Sacraments but not of gouerning in the externall pollicie of the Church Moreouer Musculus in that place speaketh chiefly of the vsurped power of the Byshop of Rome and of that authoritie which his Byshoppes doe chaleng and clai e from him wherefore that place maye not be wrested against the lawfull iurisdictiō and superioritie that is nowe vsed in this Church of Englande Upon the seconde chapter of thée seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians he onely sheweth how the Pope came to such excessiue authoritie No man doubteth but that such things as were well instituted and vpon iust considerations may by proces of tyme abused but doth it therfore followe that they may not be restored to their right vse agayne A man might then much more strongly reason agaynst your equalitie which by sufficient tryall as by Ierome in sundrie places it maye appeare is proued to haue bene and to be the cause of schismes sectes contentions seditions tumultes murders confusion of Churches and common weales c. Nothing is so well instituted but it may be abused T. C. 3 That the election of Ministers perteyneth not to one man The foresayde Heluetian confession c. in the eightenth chapter sayth that the ministers ought to be chosen of the Churche or by those which are lawfully deputed of the Churche and afterwarde ordeyned with publike prayers Io. Whitgifte This maketh againste you for the confession alloweth that election of Ministers which is made by those that are appoynted to that office in the Churche for these be the wordes of the Confession but our Byshops are appointed to that office in this Church therefore the Confession alloweth Byshops to elect Ministers The wordes that followe that they should be ordeyned with publike prayers is obserued in our Church T. C. M. Caluine in his fourth booke of Institutions 3. chapter 15. section sheweth that the Church did choose and that the Apostles did moderate the election aud confuteth them whyche vpon the places of Titus and Timothie woulde proue that the election belongeth to one man Io. Whitgifte To this place of M. Caluine I haue sufficiently answered in the thirde treatise of election of Ministers chap. 7. the. 1. diuision T. C. 4 That there ought newe to be Elders to gouerne the Church wyth the Pastors and Deacons to prouide for the poore Touching Elders the iudgement of M. Caluine hath beene before declared in the fyrste of these propositions Io. Whitgifte And in the same place haue I answered that whych is there by you alledged out of M. Caluine T. C. M. Beza in his booke of Diuorces page 161. sayth that the Eldership of the Church ought to be where there is a Christian magistrate Io. Whitgifte M. Beza doth not say in that place that the Eldership of the Churche ought to be where there is a Christian Magistrate but that it may be and that it hath bene which he onely speaketh and proueth not And yet if he meane that Presbyterie whereof the Canons speake by him only in generalitie named then is it no other than we haue at this daye in this Church of Englande in Cathedrall Churches and Colleges for in the Canons presbyterium signifieth nothing else but a Colledge or company of Priestes and Ministers of the worde and Sacraments as I haue further declared in the. 17. Tract where I haue also shewed that M. Beza his opinion is that the gouernment of the Church maye admitte alteration according to the diuersities of times place and persons cap. vlt. T. C. Touching Deacons M. Caluine 4. booke 3. chapter 9. section after that he had discribed what Deacons the Churches had in the Apostles tymes saythe that we after their example ought to haue the lyke Io. Whitgifte M. Caluines words be these En quales habuerit diaconos Apostolica ecclesia quales ad eius exemplum habere nos conueniat Beholde what Deacons the Apostolicall churche had euen suche as it is conuenient we should haue according to that example Hee dothe not saye that we ought to haue them but that it is conuenient to haue th he doth not make them necessary but conuenient and he must be vnderstanded to ke of that Churche whereof he had experience not of this Churche wherein he was 〈◊〉 a straunger Of Deacons and that their office was not only to prouide for the poore but to preache also and to baptise I haue proued Tract 19. Tract 14. T. C. M. Beza in the. 5. chap. and. 23. section of his Confessiōs sheweth that the office of the distribution of the goodes of the
churche is an ordinarie function in a Churche lawefully constituted which office in the. 30. he calleth the Deaconship Io. Whitgifte In neither of these doth M. Beza so tie prouiding for the poore to Deacons that they must by them be prouided for and by no other hée onely sheweth what was done in this case in the Apostles tyme and in the tymes immediatly following but there is neyther Scripture nor any learned wryter that teacheth that the poore may be by no other prouided for than by Deacons You proue that which no man denieth and speake not one worde of the matter in question that is whether of necessitie the poore must be prouided for by Deacons and not otherwyse T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. to the Romaynes speaking of the Elders whiche did assiste the Pastor in euery Churche and of the Deacons lamenteth that this order is so fallen out of the Churche that the names of these functions do scarce remayne Io. Whitgifte That which Peter Martyr speaketh in that place is spoken generally of all that the Apostle had before wrytten touching the publike ministers of the Churche and therfore you doe vniustly restrayne it only to Elders and Deacons It maye euidentlye appeare that M. Martyr maketh there a comparison betwixt the gouerranent of the Churche of Christe in the Apostles tyme the gouernment of the Popes Church in his tyme as his wordes following declare for thus he addeth immediatly In steade of these they haue brought in Taperbearers Acoluthes and Subdeaco which with their light and stagelike gestures serue at their superstitious altar So that you can not gather of this place that your Seigniorie is perpetuall and must of necessitie for euer remayne in the Churche T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kyngdome of Christ for the auncients of the Churche sayeth that the number of the Elders of euery Churche ought to be encreased according to the multitude of the people and in the. 14. chapter of the same booke sayeth that this order of Deaconship was religiously kept in the Churche vntill it was dryuen out by Antichriste Io. Whitgifte It had bene well to haue noted the chapter out of the which you gather that first saying of M. Bucer howebeit the matter is not great for the question is not whether the number of the Elders of euery Churche ought to be encreased according to the number of the people or no in such places where this kynde of gouernment is admitted but whether this kynde of gouernment muste of necessitie in all Churches and at all tymes be put in practise I doe not remember that M. Bu er any where affirmeth that In déede in the fifth chapter of the firste booke speakyng of these Seniors he sayeth Tales sanè possunt cum administris doctrinae Sacramentorum Christi disciplinam exercere c. Such may exercise the diseipline of Christe with the ministers of the worde and Sacramentes c. He sayeth they may doe it not that they ought to do it That whiche M. Bucer speaketh of the Deaconshippe in the 14. chapter is not denied but hee nowhere sayeth that the poore muste of necessitie hée prouided for by Deacons and by none other and hée teacheth in the same chapter that mo things apperteyned to the office of the Deacon than to prouide for the poore as namely to assiste the ministers in the administration of the Sacramentes and exercising of discipline What sufficient proofes these bée to induce that necessitie of the kynde of gouernment so greatly vrged by you let the learned Reader iudge T. C. 5 That excommunication pertayneth not to any one man in the Churche M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke and 11. Chapter and. 6. Section teacheth that excommunication porteyneth not to one man and that it was to wicked a facte that one man taking the authoritie which was common to other to hymselfe alone opened a waye to tyrannie tooke from the Churche hir right and abrogated the Church Senate ordeined by the spirite of Christe And in the. 12 chapter and. 7. Section he sayeth further that it ought not to be done without the knowledge and approbation of the Churche Io. Whitgifte Wée graunte that no one man ought to take that vnto hym selfe which doth not apperteyne vnto him but I haue proued Tract 18. that excommunication perteineth to Byshops and that this Church of England hath consented there vnto wherefore M. Ca uine speaketh against that excommunication whiche the Pope violently and tyrannically vsurpeth and not against this whiche our Bishoppes in this Churche of Englande both by the lawes of God and consent of the Churche exercise I speake of the thing it selfe and not of the abuse T. C. M. Beza in his confessions 5. chapter 43. Section sayeth that this power of excommunicating is giuen to no one man except it please God to worke extraordinarily Peter Martyr vpon the firste to the Corinthes and fifth chapter sayeth that it is very daungerous to permitte so waighty a matter as excommunication to the discretion and wil of any one man And therefore both that tyrannie might be auoyded and this censure execeuted with greater fruite and grauitie that the order whiche the Apostles there vseth is still to be obserued Io. Whitgifte To M. Beza and M. Martyr I answere as I dyd to M. Caluine and yet M. Martyr séemeth to expounde hym selfe in the same place where hée speakyng against the committing of this authoritie of excommunicating to the Pope or to one Bishop and refelling this saying of the Papistes Episcopum esse totam ecclesiā virtualiter when as they be rather tora ecclesia vitialiter as he there affirmeth he addeth by and by de malis haec intelligas tyrannicè agentibus Vnderstande this of euill Dishops and such as deale tyrannically whereby he declareth that he speaketh agaynst the committing of this discipline to euill Bishops and such as vse it tyrannically T. C. M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ. in the. 1. book and. 9. chapter sayth that Saint Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole Church did not cast out of their companie the incestuous person Io. Whitgifte The question is not whether the whole Church may haue to doe in excommunication or no but whither the consent therof is al tymes therein to be required What the meaning of the Apostle is in that place to the Corinth I haue declared Tract 15. T. C. 6 That Chauncellours Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authoritie in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 7. Sect. speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Bishops charge and that they handle matters whiche perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction Io. Whitgifie M. Caluin in that place alledgeth no reasons at al against those offices only he sayth that they exercise that part of the Bishops charge and that they
handle matters which perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction this I say he speaketh but he doth not proue it In the rest of that Section he intreateth of the abuses of such officers wherein I doe not dissent from him T. C. M. Beza in hs booke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth vnto the ciuill magistrate sayth that Officials Proctors end Promoters and in a worde all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the Church Io. Whitgifte I vnderstande not by what reasons M. Beza in that place proueth that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth to the ciuill Magistrate Howbeeit Officials c. in such cases deale not in this Church of Englande without the consent and authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate It is not good dealing to applie those things which M. Beza and other speake of such offices abused vnder the Pope to the same offices nowe reformed vnder a Christian Prince that professeth the Gospell But thus you dazell the peoples eyes T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. Chap. to the Romaines speaking against the ciuill iurisdiction of Bishops doth by the same reason condemne it in their Deputies the Officials Io. Whitgifte Peter Martyr speaketh not agaynst the office but agaynst certaine abuses in the officers this is not simple dealing to transferre that to the office that is spoken of the abuse of the office T. C. 7 That the Ministers of the worde ought not to exercise any ill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in his institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 9. Sect. bringeth diuers reasons to proue that Bishops may neyther vs rpe nor take 〈◊〉 giuen them eyther the right of the sworde or the knowledge of ciuill causes Io. Whitgifte The reasons that M. Caluine vseth there be neyther many nor greatly strong I haue answered them fullie Tract 23. and yet M. Caluine speaketh onely of that princely power which the Romishe Bishops clayme not as committed vnto them by the Prince and and ciuill Magistrate but due vnto them by the worde of God from the which chalenge I haue shewed in the foresayde treatise howe farre our Bishops are T. C. M. Beza in his Confessions Chap. 5. Sect. 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the Bishoppes in the tymes of christian Emperours were troubled with the hearing of ciuill causes yet they did not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a friendly intreatie of the parties whiche were at discorde and sayth notwithstanding that herein the Emperours did giue to much to the ambition of certaine Bishops wherevpon by little and by little afterwarde all things were confounded And in the. 42. Section sayth that those corporall punishments whiche the Apostles exercised were peculiar and extraordinarie Io. Whitgifte M. Beza his bare worde is no sufficient proofe agaynst so many other testimonies and reasons as are to the contrarie and I haue sufficiently shewed Tract 23. cap. 3. Diuis vlt. that Bishops in tymes past did not onely heare ciuill causes but also iudicially determine the same Touching the corporall punishments which the Apostles exercised M. Beza in his booke de Haereticis a magistratu puniendis doth make them so ordinarie that he vseth them as sufficient arguments to proue his purpose and sayth plainly that the Apostles did exercise these punishments not by the right of the Ecclesiasticall ministerie but by the right of the ciuill Magistracie as I haue declared Tract 23. Cap. 3. Diuis 12. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romanes speaking of this meetings of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayth that when both the ciuill and Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hynder the other so that he which exerciseth the one cannot minister the other Io. Whitegifte M. Martyr speaketh of an absolute iurisdiction ciuill such as the Pope claymeth and not of this which is practised by the Bishops in the Church of England whereof he had experience in the dayes of King Edwarde euen in this realme and the which he also then allowed T. C. M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Matthew sayth that there is no man so wise and holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill and the Ecclesiasticall power and that therefore he whiche will exercise the one must leaue the other Io. Whitgifte I answere as I did to M. Martyr for he also allowed that ciuill iurisdiction that the Bishops in England did exercise in the time of King Edwarde T. C. 8 That the Sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The foresayd confession C. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by women or midwyues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgie of the English Church at Geneua which condemneth the ministring of eyther of the Sacraments in priuate houses or by women I Whitgifte These be néedlesse proofes yet are there learned mē of the cōtrary iudgemēt ow beit no man sayth that women may baptise ordinarily or that the Sacramonts may be administred in priuate places otherwise than vpon vrgent occasion and in that respecte no learned man dothe condemne the ministring of the Sacramentes in priuate places T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chapter of the. 1. Epistle to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes Supper noteth this to be one that the Churche did not communicate altogither which corruption as it was in diuers places in tymes past so he complayneth that it is nowe Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr in that place speaketh agaynste priuate Masses and the complainte that he maketh is concerning them wherein we fully agrée with him neyther doe we like or allowe of suche as withdrawe themselues from the Lordes table when the Supper is celebrated You neuer loue to rehearse the authors wordes bycause they make not for you but gather collections of your owne contrarie to the meaning of the author as you do in this place which the Reader shall easily perceiue if it wil please him to reade M. Martyr himself in that place by you quoted And surely it is too great iniurie to wreste that to the order of celebrating the Communion allowed off in this Church of Englande which he or any man else speaketh agaynst pryuate Masses but such are your deepe and profounde collections T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chapter proueth out of the 10. to the Corinthes that the whole Churche shoulde receiue the Supper of the Lorde togyther and that the vse of the Church of God in this behalfe ought with great and diligent endeuour to be restored vnto the Churches and that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer speaketh nothing in that place touching this question where vnto I agrée not he woulde haue the Communion ministred in the publike congregation who denyeth that except