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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45157	A second discourse about re-ordination being an answer to two or three books come out against this subject, in behalf of the many concern'd at this season, who for the sake of their ministry, and upon necessity, do yield to it, in defence of their submission / by John Humfrey, min. ; together, with his testimony, which from the good hand of the Lord, is laid upon himself, to bear, in this generation, against the evil, and to prevent, or repress (as much as by him may be possible) the danger, of the imposition.	Humfrey, John, 1621-1719.	1662 (1662)	Wing H3709; ESTC R9881	127,714	152

expedient to us and obliging and obliging without some other greater reason because expedient to us for the sake of the Gospel To advance this yet farther There be some learned men do give much here to the Magistrate Grotius saies Mr. Baxter commendeth the saying of Musculus that would have no Minister question his Call that being qualified hath the Christian Magistrates Commission I observe Grotius himself does allow Confirmation of a Minister distinctly to the Magistrate and Dr. Seaman hath quoted Gerrhard to the same purpose I might I think adde some●hing out of Peter Martyr Chemnitius and most others Now if these great men held that Ordination made a Minister the M●gistrate could have no part assigned him at all about that business but if Ordination only declares a mans Ministry If it be Christ alone gives us our Office and man only procures us an outward Authority for repute and reception as Ministers in the Church where we are called which I take it is true then as I doe not doubt but that upon supposition there were no Ministers in a place to ordain the Magistrates allowance is good So do I propose it to be considered whether the Magistrates appointing who shall be Ordainers Presbyters or Bishops may not still determine the validity by either in the Church where he is S●preme and consequently though our Orders before were of force now the pleasure of our Law-givers is otherwise whether we may not be re-ordained upon that accourt This l●o●er because there may be some consciences perha●s that can act upon such a ground as this when they cannot otherwise though I intend to lay no fur●her stress upon it I return then to my Opposer who p. 67 68. is hunting some of my ex●ressions but should do well to take the substance with them I am in my last Proposition there proposing such Scriptures which concern the fift Commandment Our Superiours are to be obeyed in all things 1 Pet 2.13 Col. ● 22 This thing is what they require and impose u●on us and that I take therefore to be a plain ground for our submission There is a late book of some tender and learned Di●ines concerning the interest of words in prayer who when they have told us p. 72. that what we call the Church of England is nothing else than a company of men by a Civil Power made Bishops and called to advise the State in things concerning Religion do add p. 73. We again say far be it from us to oppose Civil Authority either exercised by Lay-persons or Ecclesiastical persons We further s●y we are bound to obey the Civil magistrate in all things in things lawful actually in things unlawful by suffering I do note this passage as that which may do good to many and tend to healing when the rest of that book may make them but very sore to wit that though they should have received such prejudicate and hard thoughts of the Government by Bishops as if they were anti-C●ristian against their Covenant or the like yet may they see here how or under what notion they may obey them for all that to wit as the King is Supreme both in causes Ecclesiastical and Civil the Bishops I perceive are taken with them for Magistrates appointed under him in the one as the Judges Justices are in the other so they allow obedience to them is to other Superiours so long as they require only things lawful and that our matter in hand is such it suffices I count that it is no where forbidden in the light of Nature or Scripture directly or consequentially and therefore it is lawful for which I have quoted that known Text Where there is no Law there is no transgression In his rebus sayes Austin de qu bus nihil certi statuit Scriptura instituta majorum pro lege tenenda sunt That which can be supposed to be replied to this is only that it is like the Law forbids the repetition of such an Ordinance and therefore I do clear this by other instances The first was of Marriage which hath been ordinarily by the Magistrate and the Minister both in these times I m● se●f have had a comple come to me after they were long married and had a child and I made no question to marry them again for the satisfaction of their consciences The like apprehensions therefore I have perceived in me about this matter I see indeed some others are ready to question perhaps whether such who have done thus have done lawfully but why not I pray as well as contract themselves and give their mutual consent fi●st and be married after Such a consent de proesenti no doubt does pon●re fundamentum relation it so that they are Man and Wife coram Deo thereby and what does the solemnity after but declare them so coram hominibus and give them that account legally in the world Now if this testification be not sufficient but men will account them as unmarried unless it be by a Minister nay suppose the Laws of any place would not allow it otherwise who would advise but they should do it again Nay this is not enough who would advise that they rather part quite leave one another and be no more Man and Wife rather than be married again Such is the case and question of ours in hand for ought I can see and no less in this matter of Re-ordination For the form he objects I answer the impropriety of some words in s●ch a case as to the one will not argue and infer the same I hope altogether in the other whereof it suffices that I have spoken before already A second instance I have is of the Oaths of Alleagiance and Supremacy These are taken at our Degrees at our Orders and upon particular occasions as the Law and Magistrate requires and yet cid I never hear any plead against this that it would be taking an Ordinance in vain Holy Bradford the Martyr tells his Judges that he had taken the same Oath against the Pope six times Unto this my Opponent sayes nothing and indeed no●hing can be said If that only argument of his varied in words be good that a man cannot be Ordained twice because the end of Ordination is attained as one Administration then a man may not have either of these Oaths twice administred to him because the end to wit the obliging a man to the contents is attained at once and so the Laws and Magistrate that require this on sundry occasions do require the taking Gods Name in vain Let my Author come off here if he can The swearing by Gods Name we know is a solemn Ordinance part of Gods Worshi Deut. 10.20 and if this may be repeated upon the forms of Courts be order of the Law command of our Superiours let this be satisfaction likewise to us that what is in vain as to one end is not so to another that what is in vain in regard of ones self is not in

receive the power and then put him solemnly into possession This is what is clear and well but there is a little more needfull to make it full Although in this businesse of the Magistrate which is Civil where the authority is of man and the officers officers of men it is enough to look no further then men and an outward court onely yet in the businesse of the Ministry where the authority is spiritual and the officers appointed the officers immediately of Jesus Christ and not of man we are to look further unto God and his inward court also and account that a man hath and must have his authority first in his sight before he hath it in mans and consequently what is done in mans court is by the way of Ministry signifying his will for the declaration or confirmation thereof with us to wit The right faculty authority or commission which a man hath coram Deo and the court of his own conscience as being truly called of God is allowed or approved by this publick testimony of the Church so that he is received reckoned or numbred as it is said of Matthias amongst the Ministers of Christ which is the very direct and proper effect of this external act of investiture and solemnization I will take an eminent passage from Mr Hooker who must be forced to understand here with us The cause why we breath not as Christ did on them unto whom he imparted power is for that neither spirit nor spiritual authority may be thought to proceed from us which are but delegates or assigns to give men possession of his graces Ec. Pol. p. 431. And here then I shall humbly call in my Episcopal fathers and brethren who have been apt to wonder at me in my first sheets that I should hold that Orders does not give the Ministerial power when they may rather wonder at themselves that they should think it wheras such a person as this who was as like as any by the rest of his discourse to maintain it if he durst does disclaim it as the doctrine of the Papists by their practise who do breath on the person whom they ordain as Christ did and not as the belief of our Church And as for the delegation and assignment he speaks of his meaning is expresse enough to be no other then as when a Lord does give or grant an estate to a person he sends his servant to use those Ceremonies which are to signifie that grant of his by way of delivery upon which he is received as the owner and possessor thereof I will expresse it fully for him with a concluding passage from the aforesaid bright author Ordination is one means conjunct with others for designation of right qualified persons described in the Law of Christ for the reception and exercise of the Ministerial office and the ends of it besides taking care the office fail not are To judge in all ordinary cases of the fitness of persons and To solemnize their admittance by such an investiture as when possession of a house is given by a ministerial delivery of a key or of land by a turf or as a souldier is listed a King crowned Marriage solemnized after consent and title in order to a more solemn obligation and plenary possession Such is Ordination Mr. Baxter p. 149. When the King sends over a Lord Lieutenant into Ireland he hath a power by vertue of that high dignity of making a Knight now while he uses the Ceremonies of dubbing he uses them not as the signification of his Princes will but of his own He acts not here as an Assigne but does it as an act of his own grace We are not to conceive that God hath given such a power to the dignity of a bishop that he may so make Ministers No no their authority as the solid and learned Mr. Perkins before is but a Ministry wherein therefore they must act from God onely as the approvers signifiers or publishers of his will and all those ceremonyes they use are the same externall signification thereof that such a one upon their examination is constituted by him according to his word and Charter to be one of his Ministers and that the Church is to receive him accordingly Now then there must be this will first before the signification of it and the will creates the power immediately The giving the power is one thing with Mr. Hooker most right and the external investiture or delivery is another But you will say When an Estate or office is given by a person and the delivery made also how can this be done againe I answer the office cannot be again given but the signification that it is given may be again The Lords will is one and the same but the signification of it by outward ceremonies may be various or multiplied The ceremonies of the same consecration Lev. 8.33 are repeated seven dayes together Besides there is a difference in the point of Delivery There is a delivery of possession in the thing it self As if I give one a book and deliver it and there is a delivery by a ceremony only as the token of that possession Here now there may arise controversie whether such a delivery were legal and sufficient or the like and what course then can be best taken to put all out of doubt but to have a new delivery which will be without exception The case is so with us just There is question whether Presbyters be Ordainers and it may be question'd haply more to others purpose whether in their Orders there was not a defect of some words of formall delivery as Take thou authority and if a quiet man then shall take the way to make all sure there is no need that he should understand by those words of the Bishop and the imposition of his hands that he does give him the power and office of a Minister which he hath already but rather that this is not given at all by mortal men but only is indeed a a second time declared or signified before the face of the church as given of God by these external rites of investiture delivery or possession I am sorry to see what a thin vail of words only can cloud mans understanding If I should say that Orders is the solemn delivery of the Ministerial authority to a person by the Bishop as a delegate of Jesus Christ it may be it would be received and yet when I say it is the confirmation of Christs call it is all one but understood with more safety which if it shall appear once in its light to my orthodox Adversary I shall not need to say any thing else in comparison to his satisfaction The whole force of his arguing against me in this thing hee knowes full well does lye in this supposal that Ordination does give the ministerial power and office and is to be taken only to that end Now if the ground does fall from under him here there is

For my part who am apt to believe that Christ hath given Pastors and Teachers to his Church only as Catholick Eph. 4. I know not whether it be warrantable to be Ordained a particular Pastor in this s●nse supposing as most do that Election or Orders gives the Office Methinks however I should not choose to be so made for the reason mentioned as also because there is reason in the mouth of those men of Dan Is it not better to be a Priest to a Tribe in Israel than to the House of one man This I take it to be Independentism But when a man is already of Minister of the Catholick Church to have a particular laying on of hands only unto the work unto which he is called in a several place I am assured in my belief that we are most fully waranted by this only instance of these Apostolical persons who were no Independents I think at least in this point in hand being certainly Catholick Ministers and yet Ordained to that particular work not to the Pas●orship of some Countries whereunto they were at present called And here I cannot but observe farther the gracious providence of God which for the time hitherto as it were determined our case Our present Ecclesiastical Rulers would not let a man have Institution without Episcopal Orders and there hath been an Act of Confirmation of all Ministers already in any living though ordained only by Presbyters Now then if any of my tender Brethren scrupled this busines● as being without precedent if they were already in a living God provided against their scruple and confirmed them If they are out of a living then God hath provided for them in his Word this instance undeniable of Paul that a man who is a Minister already may be Ordained for all that unto the particular work of that new place whereunto he shall be called And why may not this be strengthned from the Priest under the Law who though he was dedicate to God and his Office at once did consecrate himself often to some particular service upon emergent occasions There is nothing more can be objected against it but the Form which is already answered The other end of their using this Rite here I will conceive to be that which I have mentioned from that great Divine before named Et hic ritus ideo fuit adhibitus ut publica ejus vocatio declaretur l●gi●ma St. Paul was called immediately to the Gospel at first by Christ and here by the Holy Ghost to this work O●hers might not know this or believe it This act then of these eminent Prophets and Teachers at Antioch is as it were he publick testimony of the Church thereof There was none could question the other Apostles Authority who was known to have been with Christ in his life but as for Paul unto whom he appeared miraculously af●erwards though he had the same Authority and by him alone then given yet as the Disciples of the Jews ●urst not trust this until they were confirmed by Ananias so was it convenien● no doubt also for the Gentiles that this Di●ine Call of his should be approved and attested by this Ordination which must ●rom hence therefore be irrefragably defined as I have said the Confirmation only of our Vocation Two sorts there are now of my Brethren in distress about being re-ordained some that have a call to a new place and some that cannot else keep their old Though the former of these I confess have their way here most plain yet may the rest I think be kept from stumbling also who though they cannot take a fresh Imposition of hands so clear to the first end as the former for the committing them to Gods blessing upon their new charge yet may they submit here to the latter end for Confirmation of their Ministry as well as any It is a serious question I propose therefore in my Book when we see in this place for certain by this instance of Paul and Barnabas that the reason of Ordination is not for to give the Ministerial Function and the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Timothy is something else What is the reason of it the● Why really I say I think it is this This solemn Rite does give an Outward Authority before the Church that is the current repute or valuation to a man of a Minister So that he who was truly called of God before is now received as such by all as to the exercise of his Function with freedom and acceptation I cannot express my self more fully not argue more firmly than I do upon it The Reason of a precept is to be look'd on as the Precept but the reason why we should be ordained at all does now arise upon us to be re-ordained to wit because else we cannot have this reception or enjoy this End of Ordination thus exprest in our Church and consequently so far as we have Precept or Scrip●ure example to warrant or command the one it is and must be of force for the other And here there is but one thing since I must profess hath ever been upon my mind to give any check unto this and that is if the End I speak o● could be proved in Scripture then there were nothing indeed more sa●isfying but the Scripture does not express this End of Orders and if we know not that God hath appointed this for an End thereof then will it not be a safe ground for our acting upon it I answer There are two means whereby we may know thing to be of Divine warrant or conformable to God Wi●● the Scripture and Right Reason That which is evident by and co●fora●t to the true light of Nature or natural Reason is to be account●d jure Divino in matters of Religion sayes the Authors of Jus D●vin Reg. Ee. c. 3. Now though it be the first end mentioned only that I date say is express in the Word yet must I needs affirm that this other I stand upon is so evident in the nature it self of the Solemnity and consonant to the dictates of Reason that I am perswaded there is none of my Brethren that shall receive it in the clearness of it but will be satisfied in their Consciences that they follow no other than the mind of God in it Nevertheless I shall not be wanting through his grace to strengthen their assurance herein with an instance or two from Scripture it self to put it if possible even beyond dubitation The one is in Acts 1. Where we have a kind of Divine Ordination of Matthias into the Apostleship by lots It is said v. ult They gave forth their lots and the lot fell upon Matthias and he was rumbred with the eleven Apostles Here it is apparent that the immediate effect of this external signification of Gods Will by lot whereby Matthias is constituted one of the Apostles is this same value repute account as an Apostle or as a Minister which I stand upon He was numbred that

and Presbytereal Ordination and I must call each of you with the whole Honourable the present Parliament to Record who are men of spirit and righteousness that this same matter be revised as a point of the greatest Right or Wrong that can be in debate wherein it is not only we that are concern'd but Christ our Master and Lord Who rejecteth you rejecteth me together with the Souls of his people And what have thes● Sheep done If therefore there does pass any Act that we in our case shall be forced to be Re-ordained we do hope that you also shall be enjoyned to frame such a form or alter this so as that the Prerogative of Christ be not touched nor our former Ministry or the reformed Churches slurred and then it may be happily well enough in this matter And alas indeed what shall we make of all those who cannot submit to be Re-ordained otherwise Shall they be Jews or Samaritanes Ministers or not I know not how they may look on the Ministry that have greatness wealth and honour tumbling in upon them with it but as for others that desire or expect only to get their bread and raiment by it and are intent upon the work their business and their account which makes them groan under the weight with a who is sufficient for these things If I know any thing of flesh and blood there cannot be a thought almost more pleasing to it than to conceive that if the times will now destroy their former Orders or not let them pass then may they look on Providence as giving them a discharge from their labour and consequently that there can hardly be a piece of self-denial more close than for a man sincerely upon that account to tye up himself by this taking new when he is willing to be free as the likeliest way to set his mind at quiet from that temptation and force himself upon his work if his heart be indeed fully up and without flaw even with this And will your honours now I pray conspire with the flesh and blood of sinful man that because some persons will not submit to you in this thing you will find a means how to gratifie the same to the full Truly if you were indeed able to take away a mans Office as easily as you may his Place it would be giving them such a play day that it cannot be said how many would gladly accept there s● But when the Office remains indelible As I must tell them that supposing this be so that their Orders will pass though they may look on Providence thereby to dispense with them for all that which they may not do in their calling without new Orders if their Conscience cannot submit to them for if it can they know what they have to do yet will it not dispense with them or acquit them from any thing they can do only upon their old and there is no doubt but much still may be done and will be permitted to any Ministers that are peaceable and able in this case So must I tell you that this is a better way to punish such for their non-submission than to pleasure their flesh for it Let them be held still for Labourers in the Vineyard that the Mr. may not be offended with you who hath employed them nor their Talents be wrapt up in a Napkin or the people be deprived of their pains though it be only by permission as assistants to others for the good of the Church and help of them when the Titles themselves with Institution and Induction are bestowed only according to the Law of the Land This is that will satisfie those that are truly pious at the heart and stick hereat only upon Conscience For let them but glorifie God and save mens Souls and they have their main end being desirous to do Gods work with a little and leave their wages with him And this will also best fetch in others who when they refuse only out of obstinacy or unsound ends they will soon grow weary while they see as I am speaking they shall have work as they are Ministers of Christ but preferment only as Ministers according to the constitution of the Nation Though this be hard I heartily wish it may not be worse but humbly hope and crave it may be better And having now taken upon me to speak to your Honours I must importune you yet farther in the Name of the Lord more in general than about this thing only to wit for the multitudes of his Servants who have their faces towards Sion in a way of different perswasions Let not my Lords think it to be meerly pride and humour design and faction perverseness and obstinacy or fanaticism altogether but rather in many a serious Spirit a zeal of God a care of their Souls a breathing after purity at least Epictetus his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as to every one of them And therefore suffer a plain man only from his own heart to beseech you in the Name of the Almighty the God of you and me and them if there be any bowels if there be any candour if there be any sence of the hatches you were your selves under but lately that you put forth your in●erest which God hath given you at the Helm it may be to some of you for such a time as this to preserve what indulgence you can for all tender Consciences as Gods Soveraignity so far as ever it can stand with the promotion of sober holiness necessary government and due order It was the prudence of Themistocles as I remmber to counsel Greece to let the Persians have their Bridge unplucked down it would be yours I am perswaded here to let the sober of other Parties have a Bridge made for them that when they would they might come honourably over to you as it was for them to let their enemies have their Bridge that when they would they might be gon again from them Alas what were the parting with a Ceremony or two for Englands peace What were it when you have all that Money and Dignity can yield you and are sharing it amongst you to leave others poor Conscience for their part Let them but see a countenance of hearty Piety above Ceremony of Grace above Prophaneness and that you let Gods Children alone in those things wherein they do you no hurt it will bring them very near to you Oh that men were brought to this pass that they were heartily willing to let their Brethren come in and be one with them It is pitty certainly that any Spirits should be such that the same things will not content them sometimes with the good leave and complacency of their Brethren unless they may have them in spite and opposition And why should any use violence where more may be wonn with courtesie Then Abner called to Joab and said shall the Sword devour for ever Knowest thou not it will be bitterness in the end How long shall it

vain in regard of our obedience or satisfaction of others A third instance is of the Lords Prayer which we have appointed in he Liturgy to be twice used in one Service This he dare not condemn simply for if he did there is a Text Mar. 14.39 would justifie i● But he sayes In the Lords Prayer there are things which every one had need to have renewed and hence it is we use it often Why so is the Grace and Blessing of God with and upon us for our work which we pray for in our Orders that which is continually to be renewed and consequently what we may pray for again and as for our praying to be made Ministers it is but a fond imagination For what I allege that the Scripture speaks of one Baptism I would not have this ingenuous Author think I place any argument in it only so far as concerns Authority He knows I suppose that Divines ordinarily Ancients and Neotericks for want of some express Text against iteration of Baptism though the Unity there be indeed specifical not numerical do plead those words One Baptism when yet they have not yet so much as this to plead here One Ordination For the consent of Chemnitius and Doctor Balwin whom I quote in the cloze of this Section my Antagonist methinks p. 77. is hardly fair or kind to me in it not fair because the Doctor does lay down his arguments to prove a mans former Orders valid so that he is not to think him in doubt thereof which is his answer not kind because when he accounts the Authorities I have for me to be so few though he considers not I think our Divines frequent judgement of Ananias imposition of han is upon Paul in the way and should therefore methinks at least remember what Solomon bids Rob not the poor because he is poor Pro. 22.22 he cannot yet find in his heart to leave me so much as one only as if when charity believeth ali things a denvieth not he would with a neglect of Christs Precept towards me fulfill his words by me And from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath SECT VII IN my third Section I come to Objections My first is from Scandal which I have said down as it most touched me I shall speak here of this head which is become so needful more at large Scandal I humbly conceive may be divided into that which tends only to displeasure or that which tends unto sin For scandal of displeasure there are I will account two cases 1. When a man doth that thing whereby or whereat another is angry only or distasted so that he hath the less esteem or kindness for him and perhaps speaks evil of him for it and that is all In this case I suppose though a man is not willingly to offend any at all yet as to the main here he is to walk uprightly with God and his own Conscience and not to be much troubled how others do take it 1 Cor. 10.30 but rather account this a part of that Lesson that Christ teaches us to wit of self-denial and the Light of Nature likewise Ne te quaesiveris extra Nay though a man should haply hereupon go from my Ministry to another I should but be apt only to think he might profit better there It is not this passive but active Scandal though I chuse not to use School-terms which makes us culpable in lawful things Again when a thing is scandalous per se it must be avoided but when it is so per accidens only the greater accidents must weigh down the less 2. When a man doth that thing whereby his Brethren are grieved they account it to be amiss and of ill consequence and so are prously afflicted at it In this case a man I judge is to be much more tender and wary so that if the matter be only of private concernment he should lose very much rather and non nisi paerè intolerabili difficultate to use the words of De Valentia this Author hath quoted in season be brought to do it But if the matter be of publick concernment to wit in the commands of the Magistrate or Church-Order I cannot think that the grief of a Brother can be equ●l in the Scales with the offending the Magistrate and breaking peace if there be no more indeed in it than that he is grieved I am not convinced yet that any Scandal as men call it that tends only to displeasure whether of anger or grief is scandalizing my Brother in Scripture sense upon which there is laid such stress as there is That one bare word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Rom. 14.15 is sit methinks to be interpreted by the context and scope of the other words that go along with it There is then in the next place that Scandal which tendeth to sin Scandalum activum which is Scandal indeed in the sense of Gods Word and the Schools to wit such an act in things evil or indifferent as does praebere alteri occasionem ruinae Of this I judge there are mainly three cases in Scripture 1. When a man doth that which opens the Mouth of wicked men against the Wayes of God and causeth them to blaspheme vent their malice or the like In this case the distinction of Scandalum datum and acceptum I think does properly take place Let a man take heed here how he gives occasion This will highly aggravate an evil Ro. 2.24 enough to break a Davids bones Wo be to him by whom the offence commeth But if the occasion be only taken Jesus Christ hath taught us by his example toward the Paarisees which therefore by Divines is called Scandalum Pharisaeorum what reckoning we are to make hereof who when he was told they were offended at him answered thus Let them alone And here also may that of Tertullian be mentioned Scandalum ni fal●o● non bonae rei sed malae est exemplum aedificans ad delictum Bonae res neminem scandalizant nisi malam mentem De Virg Vel. Lib. 2. When a man doth that whereby some that are new Coverts or weak Christians are so unable to bear that it turns them from their profession It is probable that this is that chief matter the Scripture does intend when it takes such special care against Scandal Thus happily our Saviour words are to be construed when he speaks so dreadfully of scandalizing any of his little ones Matth. 18.7 Suppose it by Persecucution or otherwise Thus perhaps is that great case in the Epistles to be understood concerning the weak Jews who were so held by the Law to their Ceremonies and Meats that they were ready to leave the Gospel rather than see them trespassed from whence we may conjecture the sense of such expressions For Meat destroy not the Work of God Suppose it the work of Conversion begun in such a person and Destroy not him with thy Meat for whom Christ died Hooker I