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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A96888	A dialogue, arguing that arch-bishops, bishops, curates, neuters, are to be cut-off by the law of God; therefore all these, with their service, are to be castout by the law of the land. Notwithstanding, the world pleads for their own, why some bishops should be spared; the government maintained; the name had in honour still; but the word of God is cleare against all this, for the casting-of-all-forth. The great question is, which way of government now? For two wayes are contended for, The Presbyteriall and Independent: something is said to both these wayes: but we have a sure word for it, that these two wayes are but in shew two, and will assuredly meet in one. Neuters are shewen openly here, and the curse of God upon them. Presented to the Assembly of Divines.	Woodward, Ezekias, 1590-1675.	1644 (1644)	Wing W3486A; Thomason E34_10; ESTC R22862	54,646	56

those names by the Heathen in honour to the Sun and to the Queen of heaven Venerable for Antiquitie So is the Pope too and his Cardinalls more ancient than he if you will beleeve them or their Advocate for he and they conclude from sacred Scripture too see what Interpreters they are That the Cardinalls are two dayes older than the Moone They were in the firmament of the Church before the Moone was set in the heaven as they collect very wisely from the Text 1 Sam. 2. 8 See Childs patrimony pag. 104. pointed to in the Margin I will not contend with you nor you with me you shall have your saying Arch-bishops are venerable for their Antiquitis So you say so I say wee are agreed Arch-bishops are as ancient as Paganisme as Heathenisme in this Land They were here before the Land was Christian And now that this Land must be the LORDS Land and the people there The LORDS people Christians indeed now shall Arch bishops be no more A. Let Antiquitie goe I see it will doe them no good but a necessitie there is there should be Arch-bishops B. A necessitie then there is reason for it and Law both but there is neither He be as plaine with you as a pack-staff Tell mee when I have told you There ar● severall flocks of sheepe in the Land a Shepheard over every flock so carefull wee are of our sheepe that harmlesse usefull cattell And great reason for that Now tell me What reason or Law is there That there should be a great a Catholique Shepheard to o●ersee all these Shepheards have you any Reason or Law for that A. No truly That there should be a great Overseer over small overseers B. I thought so Therefore I know there is no necessitie A. I must grant it but there is a Decency B. A Decency worse and worse You should remember your charge To speake as the O●acle of GOD and as in the eares of GOD. You doe not answer your charge when you say That the being of Archbishops in a Church makes for the decency in the Church I answer you there are not Arch-Angells in heaven And is it decent there should be Arch bishops or Primates on earth There is no decency in it at all I know you will forsake that Argument A. Well But they say there can not be a glorious Church without Arch-bishops B. A foppery I had almost said a blasphemy I shall say it anon The Church is glorious in heaven you will say and yet there be no Archbishops there all men say A. I have heard them highly extolled commended and praised B. For what for their vertues A. Yes B. So was Hildebrand * Beno Cardinalis Aventinus making his entry to speak of Pope Hildebrand saith thus Now must I speake of warres slaughters murthers killing of fathers strives hatreds fornications robberies spolings of common treasure spoilings of Churches debates and seditions more then civill the Pope praised who had poysoned six Popes his predec●ssours w●s a Conjurer and raiser of Devils and threw the Sacrament into the fire This man was commended for his vertues Judas has been comcommended above the Apostles Commended Is that any newes when Robbers Murtherers Rebels Traitors vile and treacherous Priests and persons are highly commended at this day they are honoured dignified titles of grace and honour are conferred upon them To say all in a word the Anti-Parliament the Parliament in Oxford consisting of the out-casts from this Parliament Oxford Parliament I say the refuse the garbage of the land that Parliament is commended Will you put any force in praise and commendations I pray you know from me that a quartane Ague has been praised so has folly been exalted by very learned men Nay I could read you a long oration in the praise of a Louse If I should tell you what persons and flatuous things have been commended I should make you laugh heartily But we are serious Certainly that Argument will not hold neither But to speak-out plainly and all in a word It is blasphemy for a man to take unto himselfe that honour A. I grant it to be blasphemy in the Popes mouth B. In the Popes mouth It is blasphemy in the mans mouth who will assume unto himselfe that name that incommunicable name Archbishop or Primat for he is Pope the mouth that speaks blasphemies as truly Pope in London as Pope Leo was in Rome To dispatch this and to cleare your judgement from the clearest light I pray you consider That the Lord Jesus Christ Blessed for ever is if I might use our Dialect the Archbishop and Primat in heaven and earth And the Seaven Spirits is His Vicar-generall He is the great Shepheard the sole Monarch the King of Kings and Lord of Lords And because the Gian●s of the world and Lords of the earth because Almighty Kings in their conceit thinking they have an arme like God and so Lord-like Bishops have set themselves against this Lord and King therefore has this Lord and King set his face against them He has taken to Himselfe power and an Iron rod into his hand and now we see him thrash the Nations like straw and the Hills like chaffe and comming upon Princes Isa 41. 15. 25. as upon mortor Now we see him smiting the earth terribly nor will he leave smiting till the bloodshed there bee discovered till the gods there be starved till the Idols there be cast out to the Moles and to the Batts Isa 2. now we see him shaking Kingdomes and Crownes nor will he leave shaking till he have shat●ered and broken them to peeces because they would not be the Lords Kingdomes nor would they with the Elders cast down their crownes before the Throne If they continue obstinate if 〈◊〉 4 10 they will not rule for Christ if they will not submit unto Him then thus and thus the Lord Christ will do unto them that all the Kingdomes of the earth may know The Lord Christ reigneth there is a God that judgeth in the earth But who shall bold out while hee sees these things accomplished They that wait patiently for the Lord for here is the patience of the Saints They that leave God to his own time worke and way doe their own work faithfully take hold of the Almighty arme wrap up their soules in a promise touching this matter so they are at peace And this peace of God which passeth all understanding shall keep their hearts in perfect peace peace peace Amen A. I 〈◊〉 you have not done B. Ye● indeed have I unlesse you have any more to say for Arch-bishops have you A. Not a word I could bite my tongue for saying so much But I have much to say for Bishops that others may be put into their rooms that the Bishops government may be continued their office and their name B. I see you will trouble me and I am content with the trouble so it may ease your mind and

as in the ears of GOD That I have by His good hand on me throughly considered the present Controversie and have desired to take-in as my understanding did supply what I thought could be suggested for the maintaining of the fore-mentioned That I might cast-out all scruples and cleare the minds of the ignorant and weake Christians touching these matters So much to the first Exception A. 2. The next is That I am not to be be heard in this Controversie for I was alwayes a professed enemy to Bishops I answer first B. 1. That I doe not crave Audience let GOD be heard and Truth be heard and I have enough 2. I am an enemy to Bishops Indeed I am and ever was since I understood them and my selfe An enemy to them But no farther than as they are enemies to their LORD CHRIST I le adde and to themselves no farther But because it is an hard matter To walke evenly towards men neither having their persons in Admiration because of Advantage nor contemning them because of some evill they have don against the Church and some cloud of disgrace which has over-cast their pleasant Sun-shine Because of this I shall say a little more That I beare no ill will to any Lord-Bishops person in the world Ill will nay I call GOD to record upon my soule That To lift-up the Arch-Bishops and Lord-Bishops Wren and Pearce nearer to heaven I could fall-downe upon the earth and wallow in the dust there I could behave my selfe for them as for my friend or brother I could bow-downe heavily for them as one that mourneth for his mother I say I can mourne for them That I can doe without an if I cannot pray for them but with an if I le tell you my reason I have heard and from the Pulpit too Julian and Spira coupled together and so concluded from false premisses sure That even Spira whom good-men hope to meet in heaven that Spira sinned as Julian did he fell into that sinne which none but the cleare-sighted man can fall into Ah Lord I sayes any so of Spira What may wee feare touching these Bishops who have played and sported themselves upon the hole of the Aspe and blundred very neare the brim of the darkest dungeon They have fought against GOD at noone-day holding a To●ch in their hand the while and so came-up neare borderers upon them who opposed of malicious wickednesse This is spoken Reader for mightie Reasons The least for to cleare my selfe a friend to the Bishops soules 2 To move all to doe for them as Samuel for Saul mourhe for them * Si non ores gea●as tamen c. Rev. 9. 20 21. 3 And to command our wat●●fulnesse That wee doe not oppose cleare T●uths n●r set our selves against a common light for something is in this The m●n that were not killed with the plagues repented not of the works of their hands that they should not worship Devills and Idolls neither repented they of their mu●thers nor of their sorceries nor of their fornications nor of their theits There is something in this and it is in fight A good warning to us That wee doe not so and so as Arch-Bishops and Lord-Bishops have don And so much to evidence my tenderest respect to their persons and to their soules A. 3. The third exception And what way of Government now These Disciplinaries should have continued the Government of Bishops till they had established another B. That is against the method of Edification The old frame must be taken downe first and the Rubbish cast-out before the new frame can be erected or set-up A. But here are two wayes of Government Argued for which way shall wee poore ones take B. Stay a little and wee will praise God first Tha● when there were so many crosse and contrary wayes of worship and service as contrary as are Christ and Belial the Temple of God and of Idolls These wayes are cleane forsaken now they shall never be trod-in any more And the people of God are pointed unto two wayes so agreeable to the word of God comming-up so neare to the rule and closing with it That the most cleare-sighted-men cannot tell which way comes-up nearest I would wee could praise God for this 2. Let us poore ones be advised here and be wondrous carefull and circumspect That wee doe not goe our owne way for this is an undoubted Truth That it is our owne way which does and will cause all the trouble to the Church and to our selves * Here I could speake great words siō GODS mouth against Master Randall and such like who will goe their own way pleasing in their own eye but abominable in GODS sight 3. Marke wee these that are most querulous here and are readiest to make Objections They are such who would make Divisions amongst us They are children of Belial they would be under no yoak It is their owne way the way of their owne hearts which they contend for and would walke therein And that will cause all the Trouble Note this It is not this way or that way which the people oppose but GODS way and Command which is That every man should looke to his owne way be Judge there * Note That the sacred Scripture wills us not to judge anothers way but our own way 1 Cor. 11. 31. and give account thereof how agreeable it is to the Gospel-way Which giving account wee wickedly call a Shrifting now adayes and will oppose mightily A. But here are two wayes of Government still B. So they say and so it seemes to be and but seemes These two wayes are but like two streames taking severall channells so they run crosse a little time and then fall into the maine againe and keepe one way a direct way for ever * Booke p. 38 40. Three words to him or them who with desire doe desire That the way of worship may be cleared and quickly resolved upon Amen 1 But consider That in the meane time if thy heart be right thou maist order thy selfe and thy house in a Church way the way of holinesse What hinders 2. Thou dost desire pure Ordinances an holy Discipline It is well But is thy heart fit for all this Is it prepared Thou hopest Yes It is well But put it out of question 3. Thou expectest now That the LORD will make great provisions for His servants He is preparing a feast now in His Holy Mountaine for an holy people He is indeed But consider wee what have wee don with all our store that abundance which wee have had specially these foure last yeeres Those soule-quickening Ordinances What have wee don with all that abundance Certainly these were given unto us That wee might have life thereby and have it in abundance Ah Lord I remember now how Chrysostome brings in the Heathen before the Throne of GOD accepting their Judgement from His m●uth b●nding the knee and giving glory to Him that sits thereon yet

Set open the Ale-house you may be sure some body will come reeling out The same may be said of setting up May-poles and countenancing other sports thereto belonging You cannot command them and forbid the taking pleasure to riott in the day time Wee doe not reade and it is worth our observation that Balaam did command the people to commit whoredome with the daughters of Moah He did not point Zimri and Cosb● to goe to the Tent in the face of the Congregation and on that solemn day he had more civilitie than so Balaam Numb 24. 14. Chap. 31. 16. See Trem. did advise onely so and no more Balaam was an old Man as he was so his counsell must be grave not seemingly sowre nor apparently uncivill Let Isra●l and Moab come to an inter-view let them see each others faces let them be present at each others sacrifices This was the Counsell but worse than a curse for now folly will be committed in I●●●l no doubt of that And then The GOD of Israel will be offended wi●h Israel He will depart and then a curse followes as certain as when the Cloud is thicke The thunder-clap followes in our senses the sparkling flash Bad Counsell is worse than sower Counsell and more poyson u● for by bad counsell not sower counsell Balaam taught Balack To lay a stumbling block before Israel as the Spirit calleth a Rev. 2. 14 it And it proved in the issue sower counsell too Israel found it so as wee reade b Numb 25. 9. 1 Cor. 10. 8 To apply here The Bishops did not command Idolatry saying Goe serve other gods No but they set-up Altars That was enough to defile the whole Land and to make a people commit adultery with stones and with stocks c Jer. 3. 9. The Bishops did not command Tipling and Drunkennesse No But they commanded sports and pass-times Whitson-Ales and May-poles Allow the cause and countenance that you allow the effect and countenance that also which naturally issueth thence If the maid lay leaven in three pecks of meale shee need not command it to sower the whole lumpe Put fire and fuell together you need not bid it to burne Set a desirable object before the eye you need not command the heart to lust after it Set the windowes doores gates all open you need not bid the enemy enter A small sparke falling into gunpowder you know what it will doe whether you will or no or though you command the contrary And you know as well That they who command Wakes Whitson-Ales setting up May-poles and other sports therewith used do command filthy Tiplings and Drunkennesse and other abuses in such distempers usuall I have been the longer upon this to cleare your judgement in so necessary a point I proceed now to the next Question Did the Bishops but endeavour was it but their seeking onely To turne the Deputy from the faith Act. 13. 8. A. I cannot make answere here for I cannot tell whose endeavour and seeking it was I can tell All are turned from the Faith King and Bishop Priest and people and all All are turnd away from God that is cleare enough The Church and State are turned up-side downe what possibly Church-men could doe But who was the chiefest Artist and Turner here that I cannot so well tell B. If you cannot you are content to be informed at this point from them who can tell us from ancient Records That the Bishop turned the Deputy from the faith and with him very much people wee will reade the Records but consider with mee first How high the Bishops Power and Authoritie was A. How high the Bishops Power He was not in the Zenith d The Zenith is the highest point in the heavens over your head The Nadar is that point of earth your foot stands upon The place wher the Popes must be laid and their honours in the Dust of the Church for there onely the Pope sits Take it at the height of its elevation The Bishops power was but Derivative as a streame from the See of Rome a bastard-power from the Pope B. You are mistaken our Bishops power was as independant as the Popes power is as absolute a Pope in his Diocesse and that was all over the Land as the Pope is all over the Christian world And all his Actions Dictates Determinations c. were as Magisteriall and Pope-like as ever were the Bishops in Rome But I pray you consider with mee what I was about to say but that you interrupted mee 2. What an influence like some malignant Starr the Bishops power had from the Councell-Table Starr-chamber every Court and place into the affaires and transactions of Church and State 3. Enquire wee of ancient dayes and wee shall well understand That while the Priests were good The King was good When the people might say He is a very good Priest Then they might say He is a very good King Jehojada an excellent Priest for he made a Covenant between 2 Chron. 23. 16. God the King and the People That all should be not their owne but The LORDS People an excellent Priest he So was Joash the King as forward and zealous to say no more as the Priest was * Ver. 6. The Priests zeale kindled the Kings zeale made it fervent and boyling-hott So it was like the burning of thornes quickly in a flame and as quickly out It was not a zeale a fire from above But this is the point So long as the Priest was excellently good a living example before the Kings eye so long the King was good Zechariah a very good Priest too And in his dayes Vzziah was a very good King for he sought God in the dayes of 2 Chro. 26 Zechariah and all that while he prospered I might be large wee will reade but one or two Records more The one tells us 4. That the Temple and the Temple-worke there was never defiled while the chiefe Priests there did their office It is true The King fretted against the Priests and stormed against the LORD till the LORD 2 Chron. 26. 20. smote him in his forehead then he was calme and still But while the chiefe Priest and fourescore more with him did their office all was well except the King It was ill with him who did fret against the Priests because they did their office and against The Lord That charged them so It was ill with him But the Censer and the Sacrifice was in their hands unto whom it did belong To offer unto the LORD and serve before Him Let us record one example more and that will relate to these times King Ahaz had a servant a Right man for his s●●vice But as vile a Priest as was in all Judah What was the King If any man makes it a question The sacred Records will resolve him As miserable a King as his Idolatries other abominations could make him And his Priest the basest servant in the world a

8 9. at that argument But I have two words wherein I would be satisfied before wee come to a full stop The one is touching the office of a Bishop the other is touching the name Concerning both great things and honourable are spoken even by GOD Himselfe Touching the office first Can you except against it B. No indeed can I not I cannot except against a good worke and that is the office To give the minde to reading to exhortation and to doctrine that is the office Naturally to care for the children exhorting comforting charging them as a Father doth thence his dutie is concluded That is the office To be gentle among the Children knowing them by name affectionately desirous after them provoaking them by teares and as a nurse cherishing them That is the office It cannot be blamed nor the Bishop neither I mean the man for he is a father a nurse he is that which stands in the nearest relation importing the tendrest care and dearest affection and he is blamelesse in all How dare you or I blame him whom GOD commends A. So say my Adversaries too The office is not to be blamed nor the Bishop You see both are as ancient as Paul was And you know too That a Reverend Father of the Church has calculated the nativitie of the Bishops and the descent of the office and he finds the office in heaven and the Bishops before the ancient Kings in this Land B. Very true all this And now you need not tell your Adversaries That the Reverend Father is answered by the Sonnes of the Church ●or that he sta●ed heaven in the face so long that at last he fell into the Ditch You need not tell your Adversaries this for they know it well enough I could tell you now a notable Story as judicious Calvin tells it mee concerning Maximilian the Emperour a notable Story and very pertinent but I will not trouble you with it onely point at it in the Margin * Calvin upon Isa cap. 19. 11. And so question you a little Doe you thinke that Paul means by office and Bishop the Government of a Catholique and universall Bishop an Arch-bishop or Diocesan and Lord Bishop doe you thinke so A. I cannot tell what to thinke B. No why I told you before their office cannot be found in the earth A. They have found it in heaven B. So presumptuously they said and now you see though they will not that they are brought downe to the sides of the pitt You should not put mee to repetition for indeed what I spake of their Government might have sufficed for their office But reade the Text againe The office is a good worke cannot you tell your Adversaries now what worke they have made in the Church and Common-wealth I know you can You reade also That the office of Pauls Bishop was naturally to care for his people as a father as a nurse His office was to feed the flock of Christ The mightie word of GOD was the Scepter of Pauls Bishop therewith he cast downe strong holds strong rodds a Ezek. 19. 11. were the Scepter of these B●shops These did not feed but rule the sheepe of Christ with a rod of Iron b Rev. 2. 27. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies He shall feed or rule The Pope and his Bish make the later to be the office of a Bishop So the sheepe have had a hard feeding from that interpretation You reade againe Pauls Bishop must be blamelesse were these so A. What is all this to the office B. I told you before and I will repeat it but this once Their office is not found in heaven or earth It is true If wee beleeve them they have found their office in heaven and have executed it upon earth as wee heard but who will observe the whole Series of things shall discerne plainly That a curse has cleaven to their office evermore closer than the Ivy to the wall or the morter betwxt the joyning of the stones As it alwayes does to that office which is not of Gods ordaining and for which no man though for his sinceritie honestie learning without exception can be sufficient I will not recall here what was said how crosse Catholick Bishops Lord or Diocesan Bishops are to God and His Word I will onely say what some have said of the Pope and apply it to ours Some Popes have been Fathers but never any Pope an holy Father And some few very few good men But never any a good Pope So also as true of our Bishops looke wee over them all wee may finde some good men very few but not one Good Bishop And this I must ever thinke is by vertue of the curse which cleaveth to the office A. I am in a worse case to answer my Adversary now than before Never any a good Bishop Many good Bishops say my Adversaries for many of them were martyrs B. Not many if I remember five onely but twice five were persecuters Five martyrs will not argue so strongly for the goodnesse of the office as twice five against it Againe Martyrdome does not make a good Bishop he must render himselfe good while he lives by magnifying his office A. Well and so they did Bishop Ridley and Bishop Latimer What can you say against them B. Nothing not a word God has accepted them He has pardoned It shall be remembred no more how Bishop Ridley dealt with King Edward the Saint he would but I forbeare Nor how Bishop Latimer that good man over-taken through Infirmitie did in a Sermon comply with a murtherer against the good Kings Uncle the good Lord Protector too like a Bishop B. Bishop Hooper what say you against him A. Against him I have much to say for him an excellent man he he had his Table full with good cheare you will say and so have our Bishops too no full set with company he eat not his morsels alone and they the poorest of his flock and which I would have noted God would have it followed he fed their soules first from his owne mouth and then their bodies with his meat his doctrine did drop upon them Deut. 32. 2. as the raine and his speech distill'd as the dew The meaning is he Catechised them first and then said Eat friends and be merry GOD accepteth the worke An excellent man So was Bishop Juel too the Jewel Lege vitam Juelli of our Church set as a Diamond there He gave himselfe up to the LORD and His worke he spent and wasted a wearied body therein and gloried in it as well he might that so he did And it greatly refreshed his dying spirits when his soule sate on his lips That he had wasted his body and spirits too in the worke of the LORD c. to whom he hath given-up his account with Joy A. Very well excellent men these and were not these good Bishops B. Look how you force me yet I will not