the name of the onely begotten Son of God V. 19. This is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil V. 36. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth on him Mr. Hobbes There is yet behinde a reason whereby I prove that the doctrine of the Gospel is not made Law by Christ or his Apostles The Apostles power was no other then that of our Saviour to invite men to embrace the Kingdome of God which they themselves acknowledged for a Kingdome not presenâ— but to come and they that have no Kingdome can make no Laws Stud. Christ as Mediator before his Resurrection had power of making sâ—ronger Laws then any Soveraigns now upon Earth for he had immediate Commission from God in Heaven He that saw Christ saw him that sent him and whatsoever Christ spake even as the Father said unto him so he spake And he that rejected him was to be condemned by his words at the last day And Christ when his Father sent him was design'd to be a King over Men and Angels and for that purpose he came into the World and he acquired this Kingship by way of Conquest in his resurrection from the dead after which he spake unto his Disciples saying All power is given unto me iâ— Heaven and in Earth Go ye therefore and â—â—ach all Nationâ— baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Ghost teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and loâ— I am with you allwaies unto the end of the World And when he ascended and sate on the right hand of God he was inaugurated into his Heavenly Kingdom and became in truth a Divine Heroe as those amongst the Heathens were in pretence and he at present raigneth be the Earth never so rebellious in the Oeconomie of his Church But to step out of this into our Tenth Place of Discourse if the commands of Christ and his Apostles are not also Laws without the civil Sanction what meaneth the common doctrine in the Scripture of suffering for the sake of Christianitie we are enjoyned to take up the Cross and to follow Christ Blessedness is promised to those who are persecuted for righteousness sake that suffer as Christians and we are taught that the way to preserve our lives is to loose them for a time in the glorious cause of Jesus Such commands and exhortations to dye rather then to obey unchristian injunctions are delivered in vain yea they deserve the name of impious if they be not a royal Law without the stamp and allowance of civil Authoritie It is then in your opinion not only our Priviledge but our duty to save thâ— skin entire and for the sake of outward safety to obey that which is truly Law the Law of our Countrie though we live amongst the Heathens rather then to follow dangerous though Evangelical Counsel Mr. Hobbes You may easily make conjecture of my sense in the present case because I say the disobedient to the civil Powers do violate that which is properly Law We are not obliged to obey any Minister of Christ if he should command us to do any thing contrary to the command of the King or other Soveraign representant of the Common-wealth whereof we are Members and by whom we look to be protected Stud. Were this truth there ought not to have bin any zealous propagation of the Gospel but it should have expired with the Author of it upon the Cross. For the Apostles sinned both against the Law of Nature and Common-wealth in exposing their lives to hazzard by preaching to the Gentiles if it was injustice to gain-say their Pagan Edicts St. Thomas then though armed with Miracles to command assent ought either not to have wandred to the East-Indies or being there not to have preached up a new Religion and what he suffered for that cause was just from the hand of Pagan Authority Mr. Hobbes Into what place soever a man shall come if he do any thing contrary to the Law it is a crime If a man come from the Indies hither and perswade men here to receive a new Religion or teach them any thing that tendeth to disobedience of the Laws of his Country though he be never so well perswaded of the truth of what he teacheth he commits a crime and may be justly punished for the same not only because his doctrine is false but also because he does that which he would not approve in another namely that coming from hence he should endeavour to alter the Religion there Stud. A good man would be desirous of information in matters of the greatest moment from what quarter soever of the Heavens the light shined into his understanding and the question is only of the assurance which the Teacher can give and not of the equity of his Practice But to pass by that enquiry I cannot refrain from asking you though I can guess at your opinion whether every Traveller is bound to profess the Religion of that Country into which he goeth I mean not this of meer prudence and caution of an open countenance and close breast but of actual compliance with all forraign institutions so as to do as men do at Rome or Constantinople or Agra if we were sojourners there Mr. Hobbes To this I shall by and by say somthing particularly but I will now in general terms affirm that whosoever entreth into anothers Dominion is subject to all the Laws thereof unless he have a priviledge by the Amity of the Soveraigâ—s or by special Licence Stud. Seeing then the Romanists depend much upon Opus operatum if you returned but to Paris the prayer of Monsieur Sorbiere would be heard who in his Voyage when he weeded England desired you might become a good Catholick this digression puts me in mind of a saying of B. Andrews who when it was told that some of the Scotch-Clergie were to be made Bishops advised that they should be made Priests First But what great motive is there to this compliance with the civil Power of any perswasion Mr. Hobbes That I hinted just now in saying that by them we look to be protected Stud. As if the favour of our Lord the Prince of glory towards his sincere and faithful patient and undaunted subjects who will not be baffled out of truth nor be ashamed of the Gospel were not of more value then the thin shelter of worldly-power which if it could hide us under Rocks and Mountains could not secure us from the stroke of him who is in the first place to be feared methinks in the competition betwixt danger from men and disobedience to Christ as in the case of such as are commanded by Heathen powers to sacrifice to Daemons it is easie to see on which
reason on their side when they affirm that the kingdom of glory is in the highest Heavens and not on earth which if men rise the same they were when they acted in the present world retaining all their parts howsoever new-moulded then according to your Hypothesis which conceiveth man to be wholly material the whole earth will be little enough to give the Blessed space wherein to move with pleasure and we shall be as much in the dark for the place of the damned as the place it self is said to be Our blessed Saviour hath assur'd us that we shall in the Resurrection be like the Angels And St. Paul hath also informed Christians that they shall be indued with Coelestial Bodies when they have put off these earthly Sepulchres in which their nobler mindes lay entombed and that this body of flesh and bloud for of that is his whole discourse and not of any moral body of sin and corruption shall not inherit the Kingdom of God And from hence Athenagoras hath been taught to say that in the Resurrection we shall not be as flesh though we bear flesh about us Now this Angelical Coelestial Body seemeth very unagreeable to the condition of Inhabitants upon earth neither had innocent Adam such a body in Paradise And it is also to be noted that the Blessed cannot by any means enjoy such Coelestial Bodies according to the principles by you delivered and of this I above have given some intimation For if man be onely a piece of well-disposed matter and is devoyd of an immaterial soul upon the permanent oneness of which dependeth chiefly his individuation he is no more the same person upon so great an alteration made in the contexture of the body then a spire of Grass is the same with part of the flesh of an Ox into which after digestion it is transform'd But why doth it seem to you incredible that holy men shall be caught up with Enoch and Elias and St. Paul and enjoy their happiness in Heavenly Regions when there are so many places of Scripture which look that way Our blessed Lord administreth comfort to such as bear his Cross by telling them that their reward is great in Heaven And he adviseth all his followers to lay up for themselves treasures not on earth but in the heavens that their hearts may with the greater facility be lifted up by Divine and Heavenly Meditation And he spake these words of consolation to his Disciples who began to be most deeply concerned at the thoughts of his departure Let not your heart be troubled ye believe in God believe also in me In my Fathers house are many mansions if it were no so I would have told you And if I go and prepare a place for you I will come again and receive you unto my self that where I am there ye may be also This then was the Doctrine of Christ as also of his Apostles St. Paul delivereth this Doctrine with much confidence saying We know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved we have a building of God an house not made with hands eternal in the heavens And he blesseth God for the faith of the Colossians and for the hope which was laid up for them in the Heavens And he comforteth the Thessalonians after this manner The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the Arch-angel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall he caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The Author also of the Epistle to the Hebrews extolleth the patience of the afflicted Converts and likewise insinuateth the great Reason which they had to take joyfully the spoiling of their earthly goods because they had in Heaven a better and enduring substance Mr. Hobbes I have with much patience attended to your citations there is reason that now you should listen to such as on my side may be produced We finde written in in St. Iohn That no man hath ascended into heaven but he that came down from heaven even the son of man that is in heaven yet Christ was then not in Heaven but upon the earth The like is said of David Acts 2.34 where St. Peter to prove the Ascension of Christ using the words of the Psalmist Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell nor suffer thine holy One to see corruption saith they were spoken not of David but of Christ and to prove it addeth this reason For David is not ascended into Heaven But to this a man may easily answer and say that though their bodies were not to ascend till the general day of Judgement yet their souls were in Heaven as soon as they were departed from their bodies which also seemeth to be confirmed by the words of our Saviour who proving the Resurrection out of the words of Moses saith thus That the dead are raised even Moses shewed at the bush when he called the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Iacob For he is not a God of the dead but of the living for they all live to him But if these words be to be understood onely of the immortality of the soul they prove not at all that which our Saviour intended to prove which was the Resurrection of the body that is to say the immortality of man Therefore our Saviour meaneth that those Patriarchs were immortal not by a property consequent to the Essence and Nature of Mankinde but by the Will of God that was pleased of his meer Grace to bestow eternal life upon the faithful And though at that time the Patriarchs and many other faithful men were dead yet as it is in the Text they lived to God that is they were written in the Book of Life with them that were absolved of their sins and ordained to life eternal at the Resurrection Stud. Our Lord design'd to prove a future state against the Sadduces who denyed not onely the Resurrection of the body but likewise the existence of Angel or Spirit and the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do not always imply the raising of the body but being used without the addition of flesh or body do usually denote the future life and the awakening and advancing of the Soul or the conserving or keeping of it alive as God is said to have raised up Pharaoh that is to have kept him still alive And whereas you suggest that the Patriarchs were alive onely by destination it is an exposition derived by you from your Hypothesis that man is wholly mortal and not from the letter of the words where Christ speaketh in the present and not the future time affirming that the Patriarchs live already and not that they shall be awakened unto
to profess the faith ibid. That Christ is not to be renâ—unced with the moâ—th that the Magistrates command excuseth not the Apostate of Mat. 10.23 c. 200 201. Of Martyrs their Aera A double sort in Mr. Hobbes 203. Of the words Acts. 4.19 Mr. Hobbes accâ—seth them in effâ—ct of impertinencie 207. Mr. Hobbes remitting Martyrs to heaven falletâ— into the scoff of Julian ibid. Article 11. Concerning the future estate and place of torment 209 c. Mr. Hobbes affâ—rmeth falsly that the Torments are eternal but not to single persons 211. He useth the irresiâ—tible power or mercy of God as they serve his turns this prov'd out of â—is de Cive 213. Against Mr. Hobbes that hell will not be on earth of the vast numbers of people before the floud and in a few years after 215. Mr. â—obbes supposeth devils earthly enemies of Gods Church 217. Of the second death ibid. Whether the wicked shall be annihilated It is prov'd against Mr. Hobbes from Sophocles and Grotius that a miserable life is usually expressed by death 218. Article 12. Concerning the future estate and place of happiness 219 c. Mr. Hobbes denying the immortality of the soul granteth a future estate after the Resurrection by Grace Ibid. It is prov'd that the soul surviveth the body and receiveth immediate recompence 220 221. A full answer to the place of Solomon wrested by Mr. Hobbes to prove that in death nothing remaineth of a man but a carcass 222 223 224. And to those out of Job 227. That although God could raise the body to life yet without the supposition of a substantial Soul the Doctrine of Religion would be prejudiced against Mr. Hobbes 228. Of the Kingdom of God Of the place of Heaven on earth it is prov'd that Christs Kingdom began long ago 230 231. Against Mr. Hobbes that St. Marc. 9.1 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and not to the Transfiguration of Christ. 232 233. Of the Siege of Jerusalem by Gallus and Titus Ibid. Coelestial bodies in opposition to this gross flesh and bloud confess'd by Athenagoras and St. Hierom they seem unagreeable to an Heaven on earth 234. If a man hath no substantial soul he cannot be the same in the alter'd contexture of a Coelestial body Ibid. It is prov'd from Scripture against Mr. Hobbes that The Heaven shall not be on earth 235. Concerning the Argument of Christ for the Resurrection against the Sadduces 237. The double meaning of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ibid. An answer to 1 Cor. 15.22 alleged by Mr. Hobbes to prove heaven on earth and the blessed to be in the estate of innocent Adam The Interpretation of Crellius and Vorstius 238 239. Of Adams immortality on earth 240. Jerusalem not to be the Metropolis of Heaven 241. Answer to Psal. 133.3 produced unskilfully by Mr. Hobbes 242. Of the New Jerusalem Of Jerusalem above Of the new Jerusalem descending With what it synchronizeth 243. Answers to the places produced out of Isaiah Joel Obadiah St. John St. Paul to prove that The Heaven shall be at Jerusalem on earth at the second coming of Christ. 244 245 246 247. The Conclusion 284. The Editions of such Books of Mr. Hobbes as are cited in this Dialogue ELementa Philosophica de Cive Aâ—â—steroâ— 1647. Humane Nature London 1650. Leviathan London 1651. Objectiones in Renati Des Cartes Meditationes de prima Philosophia Amstel 1654. Of Liberty and Necessity Lond. 1654. De Corpore in English Lond. 1656. Six Lessons to the Oxford-Professors of the Mathematicks Lond. 1656. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or marks of the absurd Geometry Rural Language c. of Dr. Wallis Lond. 1657. Elementorum Philosophiae sectio secunda de Homine Lond. 1658. Mr. Hobbes considered or his Letter to Dr. Wallis concerning the Loyalty Religion Reputation and manners of the Author Lond. 1662. Mirabilia Pecci Lond. Reprinted 1666. THE CREED OF Mr. Hobbes c. The First Part. MR Hobbes of Malmsbury having pretended to furnish the World with Demonstration in stead of talkative and contentious Learning and having particularly attempted to resolve the appearanceâ— of Nature by Principles almost wholly new without any offensive novelty to discover the Faculties Acts and Passions of the Soul of Man from their original Causes to â—uild upon these two foundations the truth of Cases in the Law of Nature and all the undoubted Elements of Government and Society to discourse of God and of the most momentous Articles of Religion in a way peculiar to himself and having done all this with such a confidence as becometh only a Prophet or an Apostle there is certainly no man who hath any share of the Curiosity of this present Age or hath had his conversation amongst Modern Books who yet remaineth unacquainted with his Name and Doctrine Of these the latter hath spread its malignity amongst us too too far and it hath infected some who can and more who cannot read a difficult Author Wherefore it is the business of this little Book to expose this insolent and pernicious Writer to shew unto my Countreymen that weakness of head and venome of mouth which is in the Philosopher who hath rather seduc'd and poyson'd their Imaginations than conquer'd their Reason And in doing this I shall assume the usual and allowed Liberty of feigning a Discourse betwixt Mr. Hobbes and a Student in Divinity as also such Circumstances as gave occasion to the Dialogue after the ensuing manner A certain Divine having allotted one moneth in a year for his Diversion as also for his better information in the Topography of England he chose a while since to become an eye-witness of those Wonders of the Peak of which he had sometimes read with some content in the elegant Prose of Mr. Cambden and heroick numbers of Mr. Hobbes In this Progress he was led at length by his Curiosity to Buxton-Well in such a juncture of time as he esteemed happy For at the same hour with him Mr. Hobbes alighted there together with three or four other persons of no inferiour quality for the old Man being a well-willer to long life and knowing that those Waters were comfortable to the Nerves and very usefull towards the prolongation of health was not unwilling to be a visiter of them The fellow-â—ravellers of Mr. Hobbes had no sooner taken their Foot out of the Stirrop than they were surprized by the Contents of a Letter which a Messenger dispatched after them deliver'd into their hands The business was a matter of great importance and such as admitted of no delay and was very improper for the attendance of Mr. Hobbes who was therefore left by them with much excuse and many expressions of Civility to the sole conversation of the Divine In their Address Mr. Hobbes made his with a stiff posture and a forbidding countenance having no ground of hoping for good usage from Men of that Order upon which he had cast so much of his foulest Ink besides their Christian
satisfaction to find all this in the sequel of our Discourse confirmed to me by experience But whatsoever your behaviour is like to be I cannot but fear having been conversant in your Leviathan that your opinions will deserve reproof I have sometimes heard the substance of them comprized in twelve Articles which sound harshly to men profeâ—â—ing Christianity and they were delivered under the Title of the Hobbist's Creed in such phrase and order as followeth I believe that God is Almighty matter that in him there are three Persons he having been thrice represented on earth that it is to be decided by the Civil Power whether he created all things else that Angels are not Incorporeal substances those words implying a contradiction but preternatural impreâ—â—â—ons on the brain of man that the Soul of man is the temperament of his Body that the Liberty of Will in that Soul is physically necessary that the prime â—aw of nature in the soul of man is that of self-Love that the Law of the Civil Sovereign is the obliging Rule of good and evil just and unjust that the Books of the Old and New Testament are made Canon and Law by the Civil Powers that whatsoever is written in these Books may lawfully be denied even upon oath after the laudable doctrine and practice of the Gnosticks in times of persecution when men shall be urged by the menaces of Authority that Hell is a tolerable condition of life for a few years upon earth to begin at the general Resurrection and that Heaven is a blessed estate of good men like that of Adam beâ—ore his fall beginning at the general Resurrection to be from thenceforth eternal upon Earth in the Holy-Land These Articles as they are double in their number so do they a thousand times exceed in mischievous error those six so properly called bloody ones in the dayes of King Henry the eighth Nay Sir I beseech you set not so uneasily neither prepare to vent your passion for if it shall appear in the pursuit of this disputation that this charge which is now drawn up is false I will not persist in it but be zealous in moving all your slanderers to lay themselves at those Feet of yours at which as you your self have written so very many of our English Gentry have with excellent effect sate for instruction At present I desire to take no other advantage from that presumed Creed than may be derived from the method in which the Articles of it are propounded as also from the particular subjects contained in them without any forestalling assent or dissent of mind For from thence we may fitly borrow both the Heads and the Order of such a discourse as will lead us without confusion throughout all those Opinions with which you are said to have debauched Religion Let us then take our beginning from the first Article that fundamental principle which being removed all real Religion falls to the ground that is to say the Existence of a God Are you then convinced that God is Mr. Hobbs I am For the effects we acknowledge naturally do include a Power of their producing before they were produced and that Power presupposeth something Existent that hath such Power and the thing so existing with power to produce if it were not eternal must needs have been produced by somewhat before it and that again by somewhat else before that till we come to an eternal that is to say the First Power of all Powers and â—â—rst Cause of all Causes and this is it which all men conceive by the name of God Stud. By this argument unwary men may be perhaps deceived into a good opinion of your Philosophy as if by the aids of it you were no weak defender of natural Religion but such as with due attention search your Books they cannot miss a Key wherewith they may decypher those mysterious words and shew that in their true and proper meaning they undermine Religion in stead of laying the ground-work of it Des-Cartes in an Epistle to Father Mersennus makes mention though with much neglect of your opinion concerning a Corporeal God this it seems you had broached in a studied Letter which passed through divers hands about that time when All things Sacred began to be most rudely invaded to wit the commencement of our Civil Wars And in diver Books since that time published you have often insinuated and sometimes directly asserted that whatsoever existeth is material Seing then it is absurd to say that Matter can create Matter it followeth that the effects you speak of in your argument are not to be understood of the very Essences of bodies which in your Book de Corpore you conceive to be neither generated nor destroyed but of those various changes which by motion are caused in nature your sense then amounteth to this impious assertion that in the chain of natural causes subordinate to each other that portion of matter which in one rank of causes and effects for you admit of an eternal cause or of causes being it self eternally moved gave the first impulse to another body which also moved the neighboring Body so forward in many links of succession 'till the motion arrived at any effect which we take notice of is to be called God In the like sense the Atheist Vaninus called nature the Queen and Goddesse of Mortals being as saith a learned Writer a sottish Priest of the said Goddess and also a most infamous sacrifice Mr. Hobbes This principle that God is not incorporeal is the doctrin which I have sometimes written and when occasion serves maintain I say therefore that the world I mean not the Earth only that denominates the lovers of it worldly men but the Universe that is the whole Mass of all things that are is corporeal that is to say body and hath the dimensions of magnitude namely length breadth and depth also every part of body is likewise body and hath the like dimensions consequently every part of the universe is body that which is not body is no part of the â—niverse and because the universe iâ— all that which is no part of it is nothing and consequently no where nor do's it follow from hence that Spirits are nothing for they have dimensions and are therefore really bodies though that name in common speech be given to such bodies only as are visible or palpable that is that have some degree of opacity But for Spirits they call them incorporeal which is a name of more honor and may therefore with more piety be attributed to God himself in whom we consider not what attribute expresseth best his nature which is incomprehensible but what best expresseth our desire to honor him Stud. If every part of body be body not only â—s to us but in it self there seemeth to be such an inexhaustibleness in the least atome as will render it as infinite as the whole Mass of the
not considering that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth often signifie not the whole World but the Land of Palestine the whole glory of which might as in a mapp be seen in the places at and about Ierusalem But to return if this be a digression from our business in hand to the Instance of Lot It is to be noted that not only Lot but all his Family and likewise divers of the impure Sodomites at the same time beheld the Angels There were also such effects concomitant and remaining such as were amongst the rest Striving and Blindness as do manifest that the Angels were real and substantial Messengers But if it shall be said that this whole affair was acted meerly in the scene of Imagination it will thence follow by a consâ—quence bold and impure as the very sin of Sodom that God Almighty infus'd into the Sodomites such bewitching Images as were proper to enkindle in them unnatural Lusts and then condemn'd them to their darkness for pursuing such Fancies as were his own Off-spring The Angels that appear'd to Abraham out-went the power of Fancy feasting themselves upon real food and not being entertain'd as at an Imaginary Banquet of Witches Now for the New Testament to collect the sevâ—ral places were with Samson to multiply heaps upon heaps That divers mention'd under the name of Daemoniacks in the Scripture were men disturbed by Melancholy and possess'd with the â—alling-sickness is not denied by me and hath been publickly asserted long since by a very eminent Divine but to conclude that all were such is to do violence to the holy Text and our own Reason in the interpretation of it and thereby to render our selves as mad as the persons we discourse of It soundeth untowardly to say that Epilepsies and Phrensies should beg leave of Christ to go into swine and being cast out or cured that is annihilated as such by the change of figure and motion in the vessels blood and humours should after this be able to enter into the herd and to hurry them into swift destruction Yet of Possessions there may be room for scruple in many cases and Galen mentions a Disease under the horrid name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as I have learnt from Peter Martyr in his Discourse upon the Melaâ—choly of Saul But touching the existence of Angels there is no place left for the Sceptick in the Gospel The Disciples seeing our blessed Lord when he walked upon the Sea supposed him to be an Angel They would not hereby mean a Phantasm because he was seen by many of them at the same time whose differing fancies and motions of brain cannot be reasonably supposed in this juncture to have conspir'd And therefore I cannot commend that interpretation of Episcopius which he made upon a passage in St. Luke conceiving that Christ surprizing the Disciples after his Resurrection was judg'd at first by them a meer spectre and not a spiritual essence it being utterly improbable that the same Spectre or Phantasm should arise at the same time in the brains of all the eleven without some outward object dispensing its influence to them all Go now and say that the Apostles were not men of so clear an apprehension in this matter as your self being smutted with the dark doctrine of Daemonologie amongst the Greeks But what evasion is sufficient when you read the History of the Deliverance of St. Peter Concerning whom the Spirit of God affirmeth expresly that it was done not in a Vision but by the real efficacy of an Angel commissioned by God Mr. Hâ—bbes Considering the signification of the word Angâ—l in the Old Testament and the nature of Dreams and Visions that happen to men by the ordinary way of nature I was enclined to this opinion that Angels were nothing but supernatural Apparitions of the fancy raised by the special and extraordinary operation of God thereby to make his presence and commandments known to Mankind and chiefly to his own People But the many places of the New Testament and ouâ— Saviours own words and in such Texts wherein is no suspition of corruption of the Scripture have extorted from my feeble reason an acknowledgment and belief that there be also Angels substantial and permanent But to believe they be in no place that is to say no where that is to say nothing as they though indirectly say that will have them incorporeal cannot by Scripture be evinced I add also that concerning the Creation of Angels there is nothing delivered in the Scriptures Stud. The Scriptures affirm of Angels that they are permanent Substances they also make them inferior to God and they ascribe to God the creating of all things besides himself and therefore by apparent consequence they affirm of Angels that they were created If an express testimony be required the Iews will tell you that Moses of whose secret Cabal they think themselves the chief understood those words of his especially of Angels when he said of God that In the Beginning he created the Heavens But the words of St. Paul have seemed to me of more easie and particular application Christ said that great Doctor of the Gentiles is the Image of the invisible God the first-born of every creature for by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth visible and invisible whether they be Thrones or Dominions or Principalities or Powers all things were created by Him and for Him These words must be interpreted of Men and Angels from the importance of the phrase in other places of St. Paul and from the mention of procured reconciliation or recapitulation which appertains not to the other parts of the upper or lower World If any man here replieth that because our Saviour took not hold of Angels became not God incarnate to reduce them and by his blood to soften and loose their Adamantine chains it seems therefore absurd to apply this Text to those invisible Orders he may be satish'd by taking notice of the proper signification of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that verse and this will be best done by observing the agreement betwixt this Chapter and the first to the Ephesians of which Epistle this to the Colossians is said by Crellius and some others to be a Compendious Rehearsal The seventh verse of the first to the Ephesians answereth to the fourteenth of the first to the Colossians and the tenth of the first to the sixteenth and twentieth of the other We are then to observe that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Epistle to the Colossians is the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that to the Ephesians And Ireneus citing that amongst other Texts in the first to the Colossians useth this second and not that first Greek word Now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signified first a summ of Money and afterwards was applyed to any Collection And we speak not improperly when we say A general
recapitulates his dispersed Soldiers into a Troop So that hereby is set forth that Soveraignty over Men and Angels which was acquired by the Death Resurrection and Ascension of the Captain of our Salvation to whom as Head and Lord the whole body of them is referred and under whom they shall not contend as of old the Angels of Persia and Graecia are said to have done Mr. Hobbes For Angels be they permanent created substances be they what they will this I am sure of that I have no Idea of them When I think of an Angel sometimes the Image of Flame sometimes of a beautiful Cupid with wings comes into my fancy which Image I am confident is not the similitude of an Angel and therefore is not the Idea of it But believing that they are certain Creatures ministring to God invisible and immaterial we impose upon the thing believed or supposed the name of Angels whilst in the mean time the Idea under which I imagin an Angel is compounded of the Ideas of visible things Stud. You here again are blindly fallen into the old mistake of an Idea for an Image If we suppose an Angel to be an understanding Essence either not united vitally to matter or only to the purest Aether and conceive it employed in such offices as are in Scripture ascribed to it we have a competent notion of it and that is an Idea But of these invisible Powers above us methinks we have spoken largely enough considering their nature as also the season of the night if we pursue our Subject much longer the morning will break in and affright away the Ghosts we talk of When Goddess Thou lifts up thy wakened head Out of the Morning 's Purple bed Thy Quire of Birds about thee play And all the joyful World salutes the rising Day The Ghosts and monster-spirits that did presume A Bodie 's Priviledg to assume Vanish again invisibly And Bodies gain agâ—n their visibility So said the best of English Poets in his Hymn to Light Mr. Hobbes A Poet may talk of Ghosts but I 'm sorry you think that we have been seriously discoursing about them for then it seems we have talk'd about nothing It is not well that we render spirits by the word Ghosts which signifieth nothing neither in heaven nor earth but the imaginary inhabitants of mans brain Stud. Gast or Geast whence Ghost is a good old English word and signifieth the same with spirit and I could produce Verstegan to avouch it The word is good and the Poetry excellent and since I am fallen upon it I think it will not be amiss if we unbend a little and refresh and smooth our spirits with some Poetick numbers and dismiss our severer Reasonings 'till the morrow And now it comes into my mind that I have about me your Verses oâ— the Pâ—ak which are most agreeable to the place and circumstances in which we have been and in râ—peating which I might be satisfi'd concerning some expressions and particularly that of ninos sibi concolor Author Fallat Mr. Hâ—bbes For my Verses of the Peak they are as ill in my opinion as I believe they are in any mans and made long since I will by no means hear them Stud. Then let us get on the other side of our Curtains without any Epilogue at all for I begin to be as heavy as if the Mines of this Shire had a powerful influence upon me I would have been glad to have diverted the humour a little with something pleasant that we might have concluded as the Italians advise Con la bocca dolce But I will force none of my humour upon you Sir I return you thanks for your Conversation and I wish you most heartily a good night Mr. Hobbes Sir praying God to prosper you I take leave of you and am your humble Servant The End of the First Dialogue The Second Dialogue Art 5. Concerning the Soul of Man Stud. A Good morrow to you Mr. Hobbes I hope you slept well since I parted from you notwithstanding the heat of our Disputation Mr. Hobbes Very well as quietly as if I had been rocked by one of those good Genii which we spake of a little before we took our leaves Stud. I thank God I slept so soundly that the passed time is esteemed by me â—ong upon no other account than that it hath kept me some hours from debating such further matters in Philosophy and Religion as we at first propounded Mr. Hobbes Let us then delay no longer but enter immediately upon our second Conference Stud. I am ready to wait upon you and setting aside the time of sleep as nothing to connect this part of our life with that wherein we were awake conferring about Angels and because we said as much as we intended upon that Subject let us descend to the Fifth Article which concerns those Beings next in order the Souls of Men of them I would gladly hear your thoughts seeing it is a matter which relates so closely to the greatest interest of man Mr. Hobbes By the Soul I mean the Life of Man and Life it self is but motion so that the Soul or Life is but a motion of Limbs the beginning whereof is in some principal part within Stud. By this means you will make of Man an excellent piece of Clock-work which though you have been hammering out more than thirty years may methinks like the artificial man of Albertus Magnus be broken in sunder in a moment I know that you may set the wheels of your machin a going but what is there within that shall understand when it goes well or ill or feel and number the repeated strokes You mean surely by your description the mechanism of the Body set on work and not the Soul perceiving its operations Mr. Hobbes Perception or Imagination depends as I think upon the motion of Corporeal Organs and so the Mind will be nothing else but a motion in certain parts of an Organized Body Stud. If you can clearly and distinctly both explain and prove that which you have now proposed in gross you shall then be esteemed that great Apollo whom every one that has feigned any singular Hypothesis does in the absence of good Neighbours boast himself to be Mr. Hobbes Before I undertake this I will remove out of your way that prejudice which you may have against the notion of the Soul as consisting in Life by proving most effectually to an Ecclesiastick that the Scripture giveth countenance to my definition The Soul in Scripture signifieth always either the life or the living creature and the Body and Soul jointly the body alive In the first day of the Creation God said Let the Waters produce Reptile animae viventis The creeping thing that hath in it a living soul the English translate it That hath life And again God created Whales Et omnem animam viventem which in the English is Every living
Empire But further Were every man supposed loose even from the yoke of Paternal Government yet in such a state there would be place for the Natural Laws of good and evil For first There is in Mankind an ability of Soul to ascend unto the knowledg of the first invisible Cause by the effects of his Power and Wisdom and Goodness which are conspicuous in all the parts of his Creation I say an ability to know not an actual acknowledgment of the Being of a God For the Acrothoitae are said by Theophrasius to have been a Nation of Atheists as also to have been swallow'd up by the gaping Earth undergoing a Judgment worthy that God whom their Imaginations banish'd out of the World If then there be such ability in the Mind of Man he is capable of sinning by himself in the secretest retirement from the Societies and Laws of his Fellow-creatures either by the supiness of his mind in being secure in Atheism for want of exerting those Powers by exercise which God hath implanted in him or by the ingratitude of his mind by want of Love and Thankfulness to God whom in speculation he confesseth to exist the notion of a Deity including that of a Benefactor Mr. H. I must acknowledg that it is not impossible in the state of Nature to sin against God Stud. A man may also in that state fin by being injurious to himself Mr Hobb Neither is that denied because hec may pretend that to be for his preservation which neither is so nor is so judged by himself Stud. But he may likewise sin with reference to himself in matters wherein no prejudice accrueth to his health or outward safety The Instance may be made in Buggery with a Beaâ—â— which seemeth to be a sin against the order oâ— God in Nature This monstrous Indecency this detestable and abhominable Vice as the Statute calls it is by our Law made Felony without Clergy and this surely in regard it is rather a sin against Nature than Commonwealth it being less noxious to Society to humble than to kill the owners beast the latter of which is but a treâ—pass Lastly In relation to otâ—ers I cannot but judg that one man espying another and not discerniâ—g in him any tokens of mischief but rather of submission if being thus secure unassaulted he rusheth upon him so to display his power and please his tyrannous mind bereaveâ—h him of life he is a murdâ—rer in the account of God Man The reason seemeth unstâ—ained cogent For there is no such neer propriety to a man in any possession as in that of life which a man as to this state can no more forego then he can part with himself neither can the Right be more confirmed to him than his own Peâ—â—â—nality Wherefore in no condition of Mankind can it be forfeited but by his own default or consent But in meer self defence there 's no murther because one life being apparently in hazard it is reason that the assaulted man should esteem his own more dearly than his Enemy's It is eâ—sie to understand on which side to act when it is come to this pass that as the Italians say of War We must either be spectators of other meâ—s deaths or spectacles of our own Moreover it appeareâ—h unto me not altogether improbable that in this feigned state of nature unjust robbery may have place For in this community there being sufficient portions both for the necessity convenience of all men if one shall intrude into the possessiâ—n of another who is contented with a modest share being moved only by ambition wantonness of mind he seemeth to be no other than an unrighteous aggressoâ— For all men being by you supposed of equal righâ— the advantage of pre-occupancy on the one sidâ— do's turn the scale if natural justice holds the ballance For it is in Law an old maxim In pari jure melior est conditio Possidentis Wherefore if any person endeavours by such unnatural practises as I have mention'd to encrease his outward safety or brutish delight he in truth destroyeth by his iniquity more of himself than he can preserve by his ambition and lust And he may be resembled to a rash Seaman who out of presumed pleasure in swimming throws himself headlong into a boisterous Sea temporal delight and preservation by sin being the ready way to bottomless ruin By what hath been said I am induced to believe that there is not only iniquity but injustice too in a meer state of Nature although neither of them be capable of such aggravations or are extended to so many Instances as in that state where men live under Positive Commands For to make Instance not in the lower restraints of fishing fowling hunting but in the more considerable case of promiscuous mixtures such practice seemeth not so much condemned by the Law of Nature as by Custom the commands of Moses Christ Christian Magistrates and heathen Powers For the most holy God would never have begun the World by one Man and Woman whose Posterity must needs be propagated by the mixtures of their Sons Dâ—ughters if what we call Incest had been inconsistent with any immutable Law of Reason Nature Neither would â—e have allowed the Patriarchs in Polygamy if it had been in truth an absolute evil and not rather in some Circumstances of time and place and persons fit and convenient Neither is there in these matters any consent of Nations who have no other instructor besides Nature for the Garamantici married not but engendred as the Monsters at the Springs of Africa And Sâ—leucus gave his own Wife to his son Antiochus then passed it into a Law And Socrates the great pretender to Moral Prudence esteemed it a civility to his Friend to permit his wife to enter into his imbraces Wherefore St. Paul affirming that the taking of the Father's wife was a Forâ—ication not once named amongst the Gentiles is to be understood of those Heathens whose manners conversations he had observed in his Travels And Aelian's Reading or Memory was but narrow when in contemplation of the victorious Sicyâ—â—ians deflouring the Pollenaearian Virgins he cried out These Practices by the gods of Graecia are very cruel and as far as I remember not approved of by the veriest Barbarians And as I think it must be granted to you that such consent of Nations as may seem to argue a common principle whence it is derived is not easily in many cases found by those who look beyond the usages of Europe the Colonies planted by the Europâ—ans For Pagans unless it be in the acknowledgment of God in which most agree do infinitly differ not only from Jews Christians but from one another â—rom their very selves also in process of time And those who liv'd but an hundred years ago before the strange improvement of Navigation and Merchandize could understand but little
Scripture Mr. Hobbes I mean by these such torments as are prepared for the wicked in Gehenna or what place soever for a Season These have been set forth by the Congregation of Gyants the Lake of fire utter darkness Gehenna and Tophet which things are not spoken in a proper but Metaphorical sence Now where or whatsoever these torments shall be I can find no where that any man shall live in torments everlastingly Stud. In St. Matthew the same Greek word in the same sentence is used in setting forth as well the happiness of the Righteous as the punishment of the Wicked which therefore is to be construed as endless as the joy of the Pious to the blessedness of whom the most daring Origenist hath not affixed a period Mr. Hobbes I confess the torments to be eternal but I am of opinion that the same persons do not eternally feel them The Fire or torment prepared for the wicked in Gehenna â—ophet or in what place soever may continue for ever and there may never want wicked men to be tormented in them though not every nor any one eternally The Fire prepared for the wicked is an everlasting fire that is to say the estate wherein no man can be without torture both of body and minde after the Resurrection shall endure for ever and in that sence the fire shall be unquenchable and the torments everlasting but it cannot thence be inferred that he who shall be cast into that fire or be tormented with those torments shall endure and resist them so as to be eternally burnt and tortured and yet never be destroyed nor dye Stud. You have by this means so very much allayed the heat of the everlasting burnings so far as it can be done by confidence in opinion that they are rendred almost as tolerable as a death by fire on earth For the Epithet Everlasting thus interpreted cannot mightily affright a single person from evil manners who considers that the Flame how long soever it be continued in it self shall scorch him but for a season But God in holy Scripture threatneth every man with perpetual misery and where it saith that the fire shall not be quenched it saith also not that The worm but their worm or remorse of conscience dyeth not Our Saviour also taught us to make our Peace with God in this estate of Probation before we were hal'd to Prison where every one that cannot pay his debâ—s to that Supreme Lord towards whom our obligations can scarce be cancelled in that state where we are depriv'd of means neglected by us in this life shall be chain'd to eternal Bondage St. Iohn also saith that the Beast and the false Prophet shall be tormented in the Lake of fire and brimstone day and night for ever and ever The Fewel it seems shall be as eternal as the Flame Mr. Hobbes It seemeth hard to say that God who is the Father of Mercies that doth in Heaven and Earth all that he will that hath the hearts of all men in his disposing that worketh in men both to do and to will and without whose free gift a man hath neither inclination to good nor repentance of evil should punish mens transgressions without any end of time and with all the extremity of torture that men can imagine and more Stud. God hath so given such gifts to all whom he will severely account with that they are left without apology And he will not seem an hard Master if we have as due a regard to his Majesty and Goodness both abused by us and to our own means and wilful refusal of the better part whilst he hath set before us life and death as we are wont to have to our own flesh and bloud seeing nothing burneth in Hell as St. Bernard noted besides the proper will of man But why to you of all men should this seem hard For you believe that the irresistible power of God as such doth justifie all things and that the right of afflicting men at his pleasure belongeth naturally to God Almighty not as Creator and gratious but as omnipotent This irresistible Power is urged by you where it serveth your Hypothesis and where it yeildeth no advantage to your Cause there you will have Mercy to succeed in its place And this may be more particularly observed in a Section of your Book De Cive To the sixth Law of Nature saith that Book which teacheth that punishments respect the future belong all those places of Holy Writ which enjoyn the shewing of Mercy such as are Matt. 5.7 Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy Lev. 19.18 Thou shalt not avenge nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people Now there are who think this Law so far from being confirmed that they imagine it invalidated by the Scriptures because there remaineth to the wicked eternal punishment after death where there is no place either for amendment or example Some resolve this objection by saying that God who is under no obligation referreth all things to his own Glory but that it is not lawful for man so to do as if God would seek his glory that is to say please himself in the death of a sinner It is more rightly answer'd that the institution of eternal punishment was before sin and respected this onely that men might for the future be afraid of sinning It is from this place to be observed that you once construed the phrases of Scripture wherein it speaketh of eternal torments with relation to the persons and not the mere state of torture as also that you here advance not power but plead for Mercy and lastly that you abuse the veracity of God by supposing him to scare the children of men with such bug-bear threatnings as shall never upon their most enormous delinquencie be put in execution But in what horrid place and of what confounding quality are the future torments if they be not to single persons eternal for I cannot but imagine that they are extreamly bitter if they be but short What then seemeth to you to be the place and state of the damned Mr. Hobbes Gods enemies and their torments after Judgement appear by the Scripture to have their place on eaath And there the Reprobate shall be in the estate that Adam and his Posterity were in after the sin committed saving that God promised a Redeemer to Adam and such of his seed as should trust in him and repent but not to them that should dye in their sins as do the Reprobate And further the wicked being left in the estate they were in after Adams sin may at the Resurrection live as they did marry and give in marriage and have gross and corruptible bodies as all mankinde now have and consequently may engender perpetually after the Resurrection as they did before Stud. If all the wicked shall as you acknowledge be together raised up and put into
body as he somtimes had but meerly by the framing again and moving of such matter as he is supposed to have wholly consisted of and by the help of which he hath done worthy or shameful acts then either the same man who obeyed or transgressed is not raised up to an estate of reward or punishment or else he is raised with all the parts of matter which conduced to action and appertained to him almost from the cradle to the grave and is therefore in the last day of such dimensions that he may not only equal the antient Gyants of which we read in story but likewise come nigh the bulk of those very mountains which they are said to have heaped up in defiance of Hâ—aven Mr. Hobbes Well whatsoever the essence of man is or whensoever any part of him is supposed to be happy it is most probable that at the last day the place of heaven shall be on earth The kingdom of God in the writings of Divines and specially in Sermons and treatises of devotion is taken most commonly for eternal felicity after this life in the highest heaven which they also call the kingdom of glory and somtimes for the earnest of that felicity sanctification which they term the kingdome of grace but never for the Monarchy that is to say the Soveraign power of God over any subjects acquired by their own consent which is the proper signification of Kingdom To the contrary I finde the Kingdom of God to signifie in most places of Scripture a Kingdom properly so named constituted by the votes of the people of Israel in peculiar manner wherein they chose God for their King by Covenant made with him upon Gods promising them the possession of the land of Canaan Now the Throne of this our King is in Heaven without any necessity evident in Scripture that man shall ascend to his happiness any higher then Gods footstool the earth Stud. There is no need of the consent of men in the right notion of the Kingdom of God for the Lord is King be the people never so unquiet Also there is nothing more frequent in the New Testament then the notion of Gods Kingdom of Grace in the dispensation of the Gospel and of glory in the highest Heavens And for the latter we pray in the second petition of that Form which our Lord taught us and the former we acknowledge in the Doxologie The holy Baptist being the fore-runner of the Christ preached unto the Jews who though they justifi'd themselves at present by the works of the Law yet held repentance necessary to the reception of the Messiah the Doctrine of Penance adding this reason because the kingdom of heaven was at hand and this had been an improper Doctrine if the Messiah as you dream was not to have a Kingdom till after more then sixteen hundred years Our Saviour therefore when he preached as his Fore-runner had done that Doctrine of Repentance he us'd not the same phrase Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand but he said Repent and believe the Gospel that is forsake sin and enter into the Kingdom of the Messiah by Grace Our Lord also in the twelfth Chapter of St. Matthew proveth by his great power over Satan and the Kingdom of darkness that the Kingdom of the Messiah was then come And he declared That Baptism was a Sacrament of entrance and admission into the Kingdom of the Gospel And he receiv'd the Hosannah's of the people who saluted him as that King of Israel who came unto them in the name of the Lord. And when he was asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God should come he answered The Kingdom of God is within you that is it is already come it is amongst you The further manifestation of his Kingdom he foretold in prophesying of his coming to take vengeance on the bloudy Jews by his scourges the Romans in the destruction of Ierusalem the History of which as it standeth in Iosephus if it be duly compared with the predictions of our Lord is sufficient to stop the widest mouth of profaneness and to hold up a powerful light against the dim Ey-balls of the most forsaken Atheists To this the words of St. Mark have relation in the ninth Chapter and first Verse Verily I say unto you that there be some of them that stand here which shall not taste of death till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power Mr. Hobbes Those words alledged by Beza long ago if taken grammatically make it certain that either some of those men that stood by Christ at that time are yet alive or else that the Kingdom of God must be now in this present world But yet if this Kingdom were to come at the Resurrection of Christ why is it said Some of them rather then All for they all lived till after Christ was risen Stud. Christ at his Resurrection had vindicated to himself by way of conquest over Death and Hell this spiritual Kingdom but the manifestation of it in power was displayed in the desolation of the City of Ierusalem And because for instance St. Iohn liv'd to see the triumph of Christ over his bloud-thirsty Enemies though all the Apostles did not there was therefore reason for saying Some of them rather then All. Mr. Hobbes If it be lawful to conjecture at the meaning of the words by that which immediately follows both here and in St. Luke where the same is again repeated it is not unprobable to say they have relation to the Transfiguration which is described in the Verses immediately following And so the promise of Christ was accomplished by way of Vision Stud. You are to look backward and not forward for the words do manifestly relate to those of the eighth Chapter where our Saviour had commanded the embracers of his Gospel to take up the Cross and promised that by their constancie in their Christian Profession they should save their lives whilst others who would endeavour to preserve life by denying the persecuted faith should be destroyed and so it came to pass when Gallus even against the reason of State did raise the Siege before Ierusalem the Christians and convert-Jews escapeing whilst a door was open unto the Mountains and into the City Pella and not remaining 'till Titus some moneths after renewed the Siege After this exhortation to constancie and promise of deliverance our Saviour threatned that he would be ashamed of such who should refuse to confess him before men at his coming in the glory of his Father with his holy Angels which coming with Angels and open rejection of cowardly spirits importing their present claim and his refusal agreeth not to his Transfiguration which was transacted in secret with some of the Disciples and the apparition of Moses and Elias There is therefore reason for Divines to insist upon a kingdome of Christ alreadie come a kingdom of the Gospel neither want they
life after many hundreds of years Mr. Hobbes A second place is that in St. Paul 1 Cor. 15.22 For as in Adam all dye even so in Christ shall all be made alive Now if as in Adam all dye that is have forfeited Paradise and eternal life on earth so in Christ all shall be made alive then all men shall be made to live on earth for else the comparison were not proper Stud. That Adam if he had remained obedient should have lived eternally upon earth together with all the race of men to have been produced out of his loyns to whom this earth would at last have denyed Elbow-room is a conceit of yours which reason doth not favour For the first man was of the earth earthy he was sustained by corruptible food he was design'd for propagation before his fall which things seem to argue a mortal nature and are by our Saviour excepted from the condition of those who shall enjoy eternal blessedness And though it was said to him that in eating the forbidden fruit he should dye the death that argueth thenceforth a necessity of dying and denyeth not a capableness of dying formerly and though God Almighty could have sustain'd his mortal nature for ever upon earth yet there is as I think no promise of it in Holy Writ and whilst we consider the future estate of blessed men described in Scripture there is some reason for us to believe that he should have rather been translated to an Heavenly Paradise then to have dwelt for ever in the Eden below Neither was it the business of the Apostle in this Text to determine any thing of the place but to set forth the priviledge of Believers by the means of Christ at the last day The meaning of the Apostle who speaketh here of those that are Christs seems no other then this As all who came from Adam were obnoxious to death and could not naturally claim the priviledge of a Resurrection to life eternal So all who believe in the Messiah shall not rot for ever in the grave but be raised up to everlasting happiness To this sense agree both Crellius and Vorstius whom I the rather name to you because they were men of singularity in conceit and such as stepped out of the beaten Road of Divinity which the Orthodox believe the truest and safest way In the Paraphrase of this comparison All of one kinde is answered by All of the other kinde and death by life And therefore there is no impropriety in the comparison though in other particulars the things compared disagree The main scope of the Apostle in setting forth the advantage of Believers at that day by Christ doth justifie the similitude though the place of life be not the same to all the Sons of Adam which was possessed by that Root of mankinde Parables saith Salmeron who wrote of them are like to swords the Hilts and Scabbards of them are variously wrought but it is the Edge whereby they â—o execution Mr. Hobbes Notwithstanding what hath been talk'd I still maintain that the Elect after the Resurrection shall be restored to the estate wherein Adam was before he had sinned and that the place shall be on earth and more particularly at and about Ierusalem Concerning the general salvation because it must be in the Kingdom of Heaven there is great difficulty concerning the place On one side by Kingdom which is an estate ordained by men for their perpetual security against Enemies and want it seemeth that this Salvation shall be on earth for by Salvation is set forth unto us a glorious reign of our King by conquest not a safety by escape and therefore there where we look for Salvation we must look also for Triumph and before triumph for victory and before victory for battle which cannot well be supposed shall be in heaven and it is evident by Scripture that Salvation shall be on earth then when God shall reign at the coming again of Christ in Ierusalem and from Ierusalem shall proceed the Salvation of the Gentiles that shall be received into Gods Kingdom Stud. In this speech of yours there is a threefold error easily confuted and broken in sunder First you say the Elect shall be in the estate of innocent Adam and you would have comparison answer comparison as face answereth face Yet our Saviour saith That the elect shall neither eat drink nor marry Secondly you suppose a War in the estate of the heaven on earth and after that victory the former of which is inconsistent with that uninterrupted peace which the Scripture ascribeth to that estate and the latter is meant of Christ the Captain of our Salvation conquering death in behalf of Believers by dying and arising again and triumphing over death in ascending and reigning at Gods Right-hand Wherefore St. Paul saith O death where is thy sting O grave where is thy victory And again Thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through our Lord Iesus Christ. Neither in the third place do you speak consistently with your self when you mention Ierusalem as the Metropolis of Heaven For blessedness being by you supposed the recovery of the estate lost in Adam the chief seat of it ought by you to have been fixed in the Region of Eden which where it is those Atheists who scoff at the story of Adam may be instructed both in relation to their knowledge and manners by an obscure but yet most learned Geographer and Divine Mr. Hobbes Will you suffer me to proceed in proving that the future estate of Gods subjects shall be upon earth particularly at Ierusalem Stud. You shall not be unseasonably interrupted Mr. Hobbes That it shall be on earth is proved from a third place Rev. 2.7 To him that overcometh I will give to eat of the tree of Life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God This was the Tree of Adams eternal life but his life was to have been on earth Stud. You here mistake as many have done in attempting to unfold the Revelation this Book of Mysteries which representeth Allegorically to our senses the things in Heaven by patterns on earth There is a Paradise not upon earth an entrance into which our Saviour promised to the relenting and believing Malefactor that very day upon the Cross. Besides the meer letter of the Text fixeth the chief Seat of Heaven in Eden not in Ierusalem Mr. Hobbes To my opinion concerning the Heavenly Ierusalem on earth seemeth to agree that of the Psalmist Psal. 133.3 Vpon Zion God commanded the blessing even life for evermore for Zion is in Ierusalem upon earth Stud. This blessing is meant of temporal long life which God promised so especially to the obedient in the Land of Canaan neither cannot it with reason be interpreted of a life eternal for David saith in the last place that God did there command a blessing Besides though Zion was at Ierusalem yet Hermon which is first
named was on the other side of Iordan on the utmost part of the holy Land Eaâ—tward Mr. Hobbes My opinion seemeth again to be confirmed by St. Iohn Rev. 21.2 where he saith I Iohn saw the holy City new Ierusalem coming down from God out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband And again vers 10. to the same effect as if he should say The new Ierusalem the paradise of God at the coming again of Christ should come down to Gods people from heaven and not they go up to it from earth Stud. Heaven is the Ierusalem above which the Patriarchs sought in contra-distinction to Canaan below of this Ierusalem above St. Paul saith that it is free that is typed by Sarah the free-woman and cannot but be free from Enemies seeing God is the King of it and that it is the mother of us all that is the Gospel came thence immediately by Christ and not as the law by the mediation of an Angel Our original as Christians we owe to heaven and thence are we nourished and preserved by the divine grace and to the revelation of this Ierusalem Christians attain by the preaching of the Gospel which is a dispensation of more clearness and comfort then the Law And the new Ierusalem descending is a type of Heaven in a glorious estate of the Christian Church on earth the commencement of which hath much puzled those who have spent their studies about the great Millenium But this new Ierusalem descended is not to be esteemed the estate of just men made perfect because it is said that the Nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it and also that after the thousand years wherein the Martyrs are thought to raign with Christ in the new Ierusalem below the devil shall be loosed and go out to deceive the Nations and with them as Enemies in battel array to encompass the holy City which things are improperly ascribed to a state of entire joy in the life eternal of the saved in the Ierusalem above If then as Mr. Mede affirmeth and attempteth to prove the new Ierusalem Syncronizeth with the seventh Trumpet or Interval from the destruction of the beast and supposeth afterwards a loosing of Satan it cannot be understood of the highest heaven or the consummate happiness of man Mr. Hobbes There are behind divers places in the Prophets in order to the evading of whose force you will much perplex your understanding and when I have once produced them I shall then have done drawing at my end of this Saw of disputation How good soever the Reason before alleadged may bâ— I will not trust to it without very evident places of Scripture The state of Salvation is described at large Isaiah 33. ver 20 21 22 23 24. Look upon Zion the City of our solemnities thine eyes shall see Ierusalem a quiet habitation a tabernacle that shall not be taken down not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken But there the glorious Lord will be unto us a place of broad Rivers and streams wherein shall goe no galley with oars neither shall gallant ship pass thereby For the Lord is our Iudge the Lord is our Law-giver the Lord is our King he will save us Thy tacklings are loosed they could not well strengthen their maâ—t they could not spread the sail then is the prey of a great spoil divided the lame take the prey and the â—nhabitants shall not say I am sick the people that shall dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity In which words we have the place from whence salvation is to proceed Ierusalem a 〈…〉 the eternity of it a Tabernacle that 〈…〉 be taken down c. the Saviour of it the Lord their Judge their Law-giver their King he will save us the Salvation the Lord shall be to them as a broad mote of swift waters c. The condition of their enemies their tacklings are loose their masts weak the lame shall take the spoyl of them The condition of the saved the inhabitant shall not say I am sick and lastly all this comprehended in forgiveness of sin the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity By which it is evident that Salvation as I said shall be on earth then when God shall reign at the coming again of Christ in Ierusalem and from Ierusalem shall proceed the salvation of the Gentiles that shall be received into Gods kingdom as is also more expresly declared by the same Prophet Chap. 65.20 21. And they that is the Gentiles who had any Jew in bondage shall bring all your Brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all Nations upon Horses and in Charrets and in Litters and upon Mules and upon swift beasts to my holy Mountaine Ierusalem saith the Lord as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord I will also take of them for Priests and for Levites saith the Lord. Whereby it is manifest that the chief seat of Gods kingdom which is the place from whence the salvation of us that were Gentiles shall proceed shall be Ierusalem and the same is also confirmed by our Saviour in his discourse with the woman of Samaria concerning the place of Gods worship to whom he saith Ioh. 4.22 That the Samaritans worshipped they knew not what but the Jews worship what they knew for salvation is of the Jews ex Iudaeis that is begins at the Jews as if he â—hould say you worship God but know not by whom he will save you as we do that know it shall be by one of the tribe of Iudah a Iew not a Samaritan and therefore also the woman not impertinently answered him again We know the Messias shall come So that which our Saviour faith Salvation is from the Iews is the same that S. Paul sayes Rom. 1.16 17. The â—â—spel is the power of God to salvation to every one that believeth to the Iew first â—nd also to the Greek for therein is the righteâ—â—sness of God revealed from faith to fâ—ith from the faith of the Jâ—w to the faith of the Gentile In the like sense the Prophet Ioel describing the day of judgement Chap. 2.30 31. that God would shew wonders in heaven and in earth blood and fire and pillars of sâ—â—ak the Sun shall be turned into darkness and the Moon into blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord come he addâ—th ver 32. And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved for iâ— mount Zion and in Ierusalem shall be Salvation And Obadiah ver 17. saith the same Vpon mount Zion shall be deliverance and there shall be holyness and thâ— hâ—use of Jacob shall possess their possessions that is the possâ—ssions oâ— the heathen which possessions he expresseth most particularly in the following verses