their case seems most pitiable who through the disadvantage of their education want due means of instruction and what allowances our gracious God will make on that and the like accounts is fittest for us to leave to his own infinite wisdom Only let us be careful to regulate our own practices by the plain rule of Gods holy Word which through his favour we so plentifully enjoy L. What you say shall teach me more charity to those of them that are sincere than they will allow to us But I do still more and more perceive how little reason there is for my entring into communion with that Church in which there is so great hazard of Salvation even no more than for my venturing into a Pest-house full of infected persons because it 's possible some of them may have so much strength of nature as to overcome that dangerous distemper T. The case is much the same CHAP. V. Of some particular points in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome and first of the Popes Supremacy L. HAving now received so full satisfaction in this first great point concerning the true Catholick Church what it is and who are the members of it and being upon good grounds firmly perswaded that the Church of England is a very sound part of this Catholick Church in whose communion therefore by Gods grace I hope to live and die I would in the next place gladly hear you discourse of some of those particular points wherein chiefly the difference lyes betwixt us and the Church of Rome For they alledg many plansible reasons and sometimes quote Scripture for those opinions of theirs which we reject as Popery and therefore I would gladly be furnisht with solid and good answers to these their Allegations T. Most readily shall I afford you my assistance herein Only let me premise that suppose in this or that particular opinion you should fancy their Church had the truth on her side yea though it really was so yet is this no sufficient reason why you should go over to their communion since from what has been said you may discern that their Church has no manner of jurisdiction over ours which we shall presently make more plain and you cannot lawfully desert your own Church meerly because you apprehend there is some error commonly received in it whilst you have liberty to hold communion with it without owning and professing that error And though for my own part I declare I do not know so much as any one material point of difference wherein the Church of Rome has the truth on her side yet this I speak with respect to those who in some particular cases may be of another mind and afterward may have occasion to make use of it accordingly But now proceed to those several points wherein you desire satisfaction L. I will so and shall herein follow the method in which I find them laid down in this little Book to which I have hitherto had recourse And the first thing here mention'd is concerning one Pope in the Church viz. the Bishop of Rome who is they say to be own'd as the visible Head and Governour of the whole Church under Christ. T. This is indeed the most fundamental point of the Romish faith by which chiefly they stand distinguisht from all other Churches and as such I have often upon occasion mention'd it already and have told you that there is not a word of it in the Apostles Creed which is the summ of the Christian Faith nor yet in the Holy Scriptures whence that Creed was taken which may be sufficient prejudice against it but pray what do they alledg in proof of it L. Both this my Author and others commonly plead that as there is one Emperour in an Empire one King in a Kingdom one Master in a family so there should be one Pope in the Church T. I think they should rather infer the quite contrary that as there is a Master in every Family a King in every Kingdom c. so in every Diocess there should be a Bishop and in every Nation a Primate or chief Bishop or else a Synod of Bishops from whom there should lye no appeal to any foreign Bishop whatsoever It would indeed have look'd a little more like an argument for their purpose if they could have said that as there is one Emperor over all the Kings and Kingdoms of the world so there ought to be one Pope over all Bishops and Churches But as it appears impossible for one man to govern the whole world so neither is it much easier for one Bishop to govern all the Christians in the world especially if all Nations should embrace Christianity as every good man desires they should But to let pass their little similies and idle fancies do you think if it had been a matter of such necessity to salvation as Papists say it is to own the Pope as Christs Vicar and visible Head of the Catholick Church do you think I say that our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles would not have told us of it and have given strict command to all Christians to obey him and to seek to his Infallible judgment in all doubts and controversies and submit to his authority for the composing of all differences whereas we now find not one syllable to this purpose either in the Gospel or Epistles but Christians are exhorted to obey their own Rulers both Sacred and Civil and to take the Doctrine delivered by our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles as the Infallible Rule of their faith and manners and no other Head of the Church do we read of but our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to whom all power is given in Heaven and Earth as he himself tells us Matt. 28. 18. But he no where tells us that he hath transfer'd all this power to any mortal man nor setled any person as his Vicar and Deputy-Governour of all the Christian world L. Yes they say Christ gave this priviledg to Saint Peter stiling him the Rock on which he would build his Church and giving him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Matt. 16 18 19. and from Saint Peter they would have this power to be derived to his Successors the Bishops of Rome T. This is the Text which they commonly bring for their purpose but with how little reason may appear at the very first sight whilst neither is here confer'd upon St. Peter any such power as to be Ruler over all the Christian Church nor the least mention made of any priviledge whatever to be convey'd from him to his Successors at Rome or any other where As to the Rock here spoken of many of the Ancients understand by it the Doctrine which St. Peter had now profest that great fundamental article of the Christian Faith that Iesus was the Christ the Son of the living God But let us suppose it to be meant of his person as he was to be a Preacher of this Doctrine yet
yea as an affront for any man to employ some Courtier for that purpose And in our Case it 's very unreasonable since we are fully assured that our Blessed Saviour knows our wants and desires and is both able and willing to assist us but as I have said we have no such assurance that this or that Saint hath any knowledge of us and our affairs or can afford us help and relief L. I see no manner of reason why we should make use of any other Mediators beside the Lord Iesus who alone is able to save to the uttermost all that come to God by him T. But beside all this however they pretend that they only pray to Saints to pray to God for them it is most evident that they do make some such Addresses to Saints especially to the Blessed Virgin as do import much more even such as are proper only to be used to Almighty God himself For instance they devote themselves to her Service and Honour resign themselves to her will and pleasure commend themselves and their affairs to her protection and guidance make Vows to her in their distress offer thanks and praise to her for their deliverance beg her assistance in all difficulties and dangers particularly at their last hour All this with much more to the same purpose frequently used in their devotions to her speaks somewhat more surely than to desire her barely to intercede for them Yea those expressions which may be thus interpreted are yet delivered in such a manner without any mention of her interceding that whatever notion the more knowing and learned may have yet most likely it is that common people take the words as they sound and seek assistance from her as they do from Almighty God and our Saviour And no wonder when their supplications are made to her as to the Queen of Heaven their Lady and Governess one who hath a mighty power in Heaven and Earth and is the very mother of Mercy and Pity What does all this serve for but to make her a kind of Goddess one invested with Divine Power and Glory This is done especially in that they call our Ladies Psalter wherein is applied to her all or most of that which is ascribed to God himself in the Book of Psalms Nay as is yet to be seen in some of their old Missals they give her still the power of a Mother over her Son in Heaven and desire her to command him to do this and that by virtue of that her power which one of their Writers excuses as a kind of Religious dalliance but others more modest and ingenuous have found fault with these things and acknowledge they ought to be reformed yea they have plainly exprest their fears that the common people amongst them do worship Saints and Angels in much-what the same manner as the Heathens of old did their Daemons and Heroes and inferiour Deities having particular Saints for particular cases and turns as the Heathens had their several Deities for several places and purposes Nor is it any wonder if the poor people give that worship to these which is due to God alone when their Learned men make such nice distinctions betwixt them as are not easie to be understood or remembred whilst they talk of Worship superiour and inferiour relative subordinate and the like To God they grant belongs the highest fort of Worship which they call Latria then to Angels and Saints they allow a lower kind which they call Dulia and to the Blessed Virgin Mary somewhat betwixt both which they call Hyper-dulia which they say is but little below what is to be given to God himself Now what subtil Doctor of them all can fix the just bounds and terms betwixt these Or if he could yet how easie is it for the people to mistake and transgress those bounds giving perhaps to a common Saint what is due to the Blessed Virgin and to her what belongs to God alone At best then the people are in great danger of Idolatry and utterly inexcusable are their Leaders who betray them into this danger L. And yet my Author very severely inveighs against us Protestants as having no good and sound belief because we pay not due honour and reverence to the Saints especially for that we will not pray to the Virgin-Mother whose authority he says doubtless must needs be very great T. But in the mean time what good authority has he for that which he asserts with so much confidence The Holy Scripture is utterly silent in this matter and so are the most Ancient Writers in the Christian Church They speak not one word of her Authority in Heaven nor of any Worship to be given her by those on Earth Nay when this Superstition began first to creep in amongst some silly Women one of those Writers about Four hundred years after our Saviour declaims against it and utterly disallows it Judge therefore what a wise and charitable censure this is that we Protestants have no good belief because forsooth we do not pray to the Blessed Virgin What! is our Belief not good because it is not strong enough to give credit to all the idle ridiculous stories which their fabulous Legends tell of her or any other Saint This it 's confest we cannot do but yet we readily believe all that the Holy Scriptures or any good and credible Authors relate And what a malicious slander is it that we give her no Honour Since though we do not worship her as a Goddess or the Queen of Heaven and the Mother of Mercy yet we give her all that honour which either God's Word requires or the Ancient Christians gave According to her own prediction and the Language of the Angel we do most justly stile her Blessed among Women Her name is precious and honourable and her memory sacred amongst us We bless God for the Graces he bestowed on her and most gratefully commemorate his Mercy to her in advancing her to that singular honour of being the Virgin-Mother of the ever-blessed Jesus the Son of God and Saviour of Mankind Yet all this while according to her own example Our souls do magnify the Lord and our spirit rejoyceth in God our Saviour And to do otherwise to give Divine Honour to any creature were to correct the Magnificat as we use to speak yea directly to contradict it Nay may I not add that such worshippers do offer the highest affront and dishonour to the Blessed Virgin whilst they imagine she can be well pleased with their Adorations and Prayers and with such fulsom flatteries and praises as their Devotions to her are commonly stuffed with As if now in Heaven she had lost all that humility which when on Earth made her so esteemed of God and Men. Certainly if we can guess any thing of the temper of Saints in Glory by what they were here in the World such Worship and Invocation must needs be very displeasing to them if they have any knowledge of
to understand it especially if you consider that though this Discourse in the sixth of St. Iohn may in a secondary sense be applied to this holy Sacrament yet it seems most probable that our Saviour in this Chapter is chiefly speaking of his Doctrines especially that great one of his dying for the sins of the world and of his precepts and promises these are to be believed and embraced duly improved and thoroughly digested into our souls for their spiritual nourishment as common food is received for the support of the body For when the people followed him chiefly for the loaves as he tells them ver 26. he thence took occasion to exhort them not so much to labour for the meat which perisheth as for that which endures to everlasting life As in Ioh. 4. from the womans coming to draw water he enters upon a discourse of that living water which he will give to all that believe on him Now who is so dull as not to take this spiritually as being meant of the graces and comforts of the Spirit And why should we not so understand this sixth Chapter where he represents himself and Doctrine under the notion of bread To omit many other reasons that might be alledged for it our Saviour himself in my apprehension does plainly tell us that we ought so to understand him v. 63. for when the Capernaites mistook his meaning and seemed to take his words in some such gross and carnal sense as Papists at this day put upon them he tells them that the flesh profiteth nothing that the spirit gives life and his words are spirit and life such as that by our embracing of them there is a spiritual and divine life convey'd to our souls quickning and renewing them and so disposing them for life eternal L. But says my Author his flesh did profit much in that he gave it for the redemption of the world T. Most true it did so but our eating of his flesh the very natural substance of it supposing it could be done would profit us nothing What goes into the month can no more sanctifie the heart than it can defile it But it is by our believing in a Crucified Saviour by our loving and serving him and conforming our selves to his likeness that we attain eternal life Whilst his words remain in us and have power over us for the forming and governing of our hearts and lives this while Christ dwells in us and we in him And whilst the graces of his Spirit are communicated to us by his Word and Sacraments we are truly fed and nourished by him in a spiritual manner L. To this purpose my Author himself sometimes seems to speak for he says the manner of Christ's real presence in the Sacrament is not gross sensual and carnal like that of other flesh which is daily eaten but as the Church holds and believes it Mystical and Sacramental T. How wisely then had their Church done to have been content with saying it to be thus Mystical and Sacramental without presuming positively to define after what manner the Body and Blood of Christ are here present as most unreasonably they have done and have murdered thousands for not assenting to these their bold determinations And this your Author plainly contradicts himself for he asserts that the Sacramental Bread and Wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ by the mighty power of God as the water was turned into wine Ioh. 2. and that certainly was true plain wine in which there was nothing mystical or obscure And according to this their Doctrine must the eating of Christs Body be understood in a carnal sense why else does he say soon after that if Christ should be seen they should have an horrour to eat him So that eat him it seems they do and that in such a manner as they should have an horrour to do it if they could see him L. And so one would think they should have at the very thought of it though they see him not T. But in the mean time does it not seem strange that the Natural body and blood of Christ should be there and yet neither of them seen nor any way perceived L. Yes truly very strange but they say this is no more than what we find Luk. 4. 30. where Christ made himself invisible and so past through the midst of his enemies without being seen of them T. It 's only said there that he past through the midst of them and so he might do by conveying himself swiftly away Or suppose he made himself invisible for a while this we may easily enough apprehend that it might be done by hindring the clearness of their sight or by other ways But now for thousands of people in all ages and places having their senses sound and the object at a due distance to be so strangely deceived is a thing utterly incredible Nor do we read a syllable in that or any other place that our Saviour presented to the people some object which had the appearance of quite another thing and yet was really himself and not that other thing which it appeared to be For thus they teach it is in the present case Here is the most plain appearance of Bread and Wine and yet no such substance but the substance of Christs Body and Blood whilst there 's no appearance of them Christ is before them and yet they cannot see him they take him into their hands and yet cannot feel him Nay their sight their feeling their smell and taste do all perceive Bread and Wine and nothing else and yet do they confidently affirm that no Bread or Wine is there but the very substance of Christs flesh and blood though they discern no such thing L. This is all wonderful indeed but they say this change is wrought by the mighty power of God in a miraculous manner as he made the world of nothing T. If any such change there were we should grant it to be miraculous but what a strange sort of miracle is this that after it s wrought there 's yet no appearance of it We dispute not about the manner how it 's wrought but we say we can perceive no such thing to be done It was not thus in the instance he gives for though the world was made of nothing in a miraculous manner yet being made the works of God do visibly appear and so do declare his invisible power and Godhead But if now a man should tell us that God had created a New Heaven and a New Earth whilst we can see no manner of change but all things continue as they were in the old world who would believe him yet such is the invisible change they plead for in the Sacrament which is such a sort of miracle as never was heard tell of either in the Old Testament or the New For the miracles which our Blessed Saviour wrought they plainly appear'd to the senses of those who were present by that means
that my Friend hears what I say and will grant my desire but I have no manner to assurance that the Saints in Heaven hear or know the requests which I make to them Nay we may be sure that they being finite creatures are not present every where nor can attend to Thousands of Suppliants in several parts of the World who may all be making their addresses to them at the same time L. But he says that they now seeing God do see as in a clear Looking-glass whatever touches him T. This is boldly said but without the least proof and therefore needs no confutation Yea certainly it is most false since the Angels who behold the face of God are yet ignorant of many things which it does not please God to reveal to them And by the way this is directly contrary to the general opinion of the Ancients which was that the Souls of good men did not attain the blissful sight of God till after the Resurrection and therefore they made mention of the holiest and best Men in their Prayers that they might have a joyful Resurrection and that this glorious day might be hastned for their comfort as we have shewed Now thus to pray for them does not seem very consistent with their praying to them at the same time Nor is there any evidence of such Prayers used amongst them Only this is generally granted that some of the Fathers about Three or Four hundred years after our Saviour's time in Funeral Orations or Speeches made to the honour of deceased Saints and Martyrs were wont sometimes in a Rhetorical manner to make Apostrophes to the dead turning their Speech to them as is common with Orators even to things inanimate as to the Heavens the Earth or the like But it does not appear that even these Fathers themselves were fully perswaded that the Souls of their Friends heard these discourses nor did they use to make solemn Addresses to them in the same posture and at the same time that they made their Prayers to God Much less was it the custom of the Church in those days so to do though perhaps such forms of speaking used by eminent Men might prove some occasion of it in after-times L. But he adds that the Angel in Zachary Chap. 1. pray'd for the people of Israel and Jeremy the Prophet after he was dead did the same for which he quotes 2 Mac. 15. T. There can be little force in arguments drawn from appearances of things to Prophets in visions and much less from that story of Iudas's dream in the 15th of Maccab. it being very uncertain by the relation there given whether he had such a dream or whether he did not devise it for the incouragement of the people But be it true or false it 's of very little consequence since neither from these or any other places doth it appear after what manner either Angels or Saints do pray for those here on Earth For though particular Angels have knowledge of those particular Persons and Nations about whom by God's appointment they are employ'd yet is it no way probable that any one Angel has knowledge of all persons in all places And much less can we think that any Saint has such a vast and infinite understanding Nay we have no assurance that they are acquainted with us and our affairs The words of the Prophet seem to teach the contrary Isa. 63. 16. But let us take all for granted that he asserts about Angels and Saints praying for those on Earth yet does this make little for his purpose since their praying for us does not depend upon our praying to them so to do nor shall we have the less benefit from any Prayers they may put up for mankind because out of Honour to God we dare put up none to them if in the mean time we do constantly and devoutly worship Almighty God with an humble dependance on the intercession of our Blessed Saviour who we are sure lives for ever to appear in the presence of God for us L. Yes he says Christ is the principal advocate but yet he will not take it ill that we do Honour to his Saints for his sake no more than the King's Son will be displeased with the people for Honouring those who are his and his Fathers Favourites T. Our Lord will not be displeased with us for giving to his Saints that Honour which is due to them which is that we honour their memory bless God for them and above all that we follow their good examples but it must needs be displeasing to him for us to give them any part of that Honour which is due to himself the only Mediator betwixt God and Man as we are plainly taught 1 Tim. 2. 5. L. It 's true they say there is only one Mediatour of Redemption but there are more for Intercession viz. Angels and Saints T. This distinction is purely of their own coining without any ground from Holy Scripture and therefore justly to be rejected Nor yet do they keep true to this when they talk of Saints meriting not only for themselves but for others which is to make them in some measure Mediators of Redemption But to our purpose whatever Prayers either Saints or Angels may put up for us we have no warrant from God to put up any to them nor are we allowed to make use of any other Mediator but Jesus Christ alone by whom our persons and services are recommended to Gods acceptance L. But they commonly plead that we may fitly make use of Angels and Saints to present our Prayers to God as when we have a Petition to the King we desire some of his Courtiers to present it for us and this they say shews more humility T. There may be a show of humility in the worshipping of Angels Col. 2.,18 23. but this does not make it lawful since there is not in it that true humility which is best exprest by Obedience For God requires no such thing at our hands nor hath given us allowance for it And Obedience is better than Sacrifice better than such voluntary humility and Will-worship Neither doth the comparison he brings fit the present Case For it 's a difficult thing for mean men to have access to Princes and therefore they are glad of the assistance of Courtiers to present their Petitions but the God whom we serve is most easie of access always near at hand a present help in trouble most infinitely merciful and gracious ready to hear and receive the humble Petitions of the meanest of his Servants who come to him in the name of his Son Jesus our only Mediator and Advocate who will effectually intercede for all devout supplicants And a great dishonour it is to him to joyn other Mediators with him as if he wanted their assistance For thus in a Kings Court if it was made the peculiar priviledge of the Son to deliver all Petitions to his Father he might justly look on it as a neglect
Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead and Indulgences p. 65 CHAP. VII Of Transubstantiation p. 75 CHAP. VIII Concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass. p. 102 CHAP. IX Of having Prayers in an unknown Tongue p. 105 CHAP. X. Concerning Confession of Sins to the Priest in order to his forgiveness of them p. 109 CHAP. XI Of Invocation of Saints p. 119 CHAP. XII Of the Worship of Images p. 129 CHAP. XIII Of Praying by Beads p. 142 CHAP. XIV Of Distinction of Meats p. 148 CHAP. XV. Of withholding the Scriptures from the Common-People p. 152 PART II. CHAP. I. COntaining an Answer to some Arguments against Protestants p. 167 CHAP. II. A Resolution of some Doubts and Questions proposed to Protestants 190 CHAP. III. An Answer to some Propositions said to be unanswerable by Protestants p. 200 CHAP. IV. An Answer to a pretended Demonstration That the Roman Church is the True Catholick Church p. 225 CHAP. V. Of the number of Sacraments with some other things briefly discust and the conclusion of the whole p. 239 A DIALOGUE BETWIXT TWO PROTESTANTS In Answer to a Popish Catechism CALLED A Short Catechism against all Sectaries PART I. A DIALOGUE BETWIXT A Teacher and a Learner CHAP. I. Concerning the true Church and the marks of it and first of its Unity Learner SIR I live in a place where there are many of those who call themselves Roman Catholicks and though I care not much for disputing with them for I seldom find any thing comes of it but anger and ill words yet I cannot always avoid it For some of them are my near Relations and they sometimes put Books into my hands and sometimes bring their Priest along with them to convince me and are still earnestly urging me to change my Religion and to forsake the Church of England telling me plainly that no Salvation is to be had out of the Church of Rome Teacher That I know is their common Doctrine but it is so very unreasonable and so horridly uncharitable that this alone were enough to keep a man from becoming a Papist since if he thorowly embrace their principles he must condemn all but those of their own way And believe it they had need to consider well how they can hope for mercy themselves who pass so severe a sentence upon others But thanks be to God whatever they talk of St. Peters Keys they are not hereafter to be our Judges nor are salvation and damnation at their disposing That God who will judg both us and them according to his own Gospel will one day justifie and acquit thousands whom they have condemned And therefore never be daunted by their insolent language and heavy censures The very same you may sometimes hear from Quakers and others of the vilest Sects For still the less reason the more wrath and considence that by bold and threatning talk they may fright people into their way when they want good Arguments to perswade them L. I believe it is so yet I 'le confess to you I am sometimes a little puzled with some of their subtle discourses and therefore I would desire you to furnish me with plain answers to the chief of those arguments which they commonly insist on These I think I can pretty well remember having heard them so often but to help my memory I have brought with me a little Book wherein they are contained and from thence shall propose them T. I shall readily give you my assistance herein Let me hear then how do they use to assault you L. Those I have met with do commonly begin with telling me as I find it here also in some of the first pages of this their book That there is but one Lâ—rd and one Faith one Religion and one Church wherein a man can be saved as there was but one Ark of Noah wherein he and his family were preserved T. We easily grant that there is one true Religion even that which Christ hath revealed and is therefore called the Christian Religion and there is one Catholick Church viz. the whole body of Christian people who embrace this Religion But there are many particular Churches which hold this same Faith as of old the Church of Ierusalem of Antioch c. so now of England of Scotland c. What then can they infer hence to their purpose L. That as Turks and Jews cannot be saved so no more can Hereticks T. It still beseems us to be more careful for the saving of our own souls than hasty in condemning of others Wherefore let us leave the condition of such who never heard the Gospel nor had any opportunity of hearing it to the wise and just Judg of all the Earth who will do right to all As for Hereticks they are such as deny some essential part of the Christian Faith and therefore properly speaking are not Christians But what 's all this to us L. They say that we of the Church of England are Hereticks out of the Catholick Church and therefore cannot be saved T. Say it they commonly do but are never able to prove it since we believe the whole Religion of our blessed Saviour contained in the holy Scriptures We receive the ancient Creeds of the Church wherein is contained the summ of this Religion How then are we Hereticks L. Because we are not of the Roman Church which is the congregation of those who own the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar and the visible Head of his Church upon earth which congregation they say is the Catholick Church and the only true way to salvation and they who are not of this communion are Hereticks and Sectaries T. This is the current Popish Doctrine but had it been the opinion of the Primitive Church in the Apostles days or soon after surely they would have given some such a definition as this of the Catholick Church or at least have call'd it the Roman Catholick Church as Papists now do but it s neither so called in the Creed nor this Article so explained by any Christian Writer in those days or long after L. Who then are to be reckoned as members of the Catholick Church T. Even all good Christians through the whole world that do sincerely believe and obey the Gospel of our blessed Saviour These are the true members of his Church and all who profess to do so are the outward visible members of this Catholick Church And in this sense we acknowledg with your Author that Christ hath always had a visible Church on Earth and will be with it to the end of the world nor shâ—â—â— the Gates of Hell be able to prevail against it Nor do we say as he charges us that the whole Church has been lost or put out but particular Churches in this place or that as at Ierusalem at Rome or any otherwhere may fall into great decay and at length into utter ruin Yet still Christ will have a Church upon earth still there will be men professing Christianity to whom
both Heathens Jews and all Infidels ought to joyn themselves L. Since then the Catholick Church signifies the whole society of Christian people where ever scattered over the face of the earth it hence appears that they who assert the Church of Rome to be this Catholick Church do thereby declare that there are no true Christians in the world but the Papists as we use to call them which seems to me very strange Doctrine But yet may not a particular Church be in some sense stiled Catholick T. Yes pâ—operly enough as it is a part of the Catholick Church holding the same faith with it and not schismatically dividing from it And thus of old the Church of Rome might be stiled Catholick and so might the Church of Ephesus of Antioch or any other place to distinguish them from Hereticks and Schismaticks that made factions and parties in their several Churches and separated from their own lawful Bishops and Pastors L. Are not those Christian Churches which are commonly callâ—d Reformed Churches parts of the Catholick Church T. Yes they are the best and soundest parts of it L. But why are they called Protestant and Reformed T. Not to trouble you with the first particular occasion of the name Protestant they are now generally stiled so because they protest against the errors and corruptions of the Roman Church and have Reformed themselves from the same according to the primitive pattern laid down in holy Scripture So that when you hear tell of the Protestant Religion or Reformed Religion you are not to understand thereby any new Religion distinct from Christianity but only the old Christian Religion in its native simplicity and purity separate from all Popish additions Nor do we say as I have told you that the Church was lost and now lately found out but this we say that it was greatly corrupted especially in these Western parts of the world over which the Bishops of Rome had by ill arts usurped an authority From which Usurpation our Rulers most justly and regularly delivered themselves and afterwards with great care and consideration reformed our Church from those corruptions which were chiefly introduced and supported by that authority L. But they of that Church use to tell us and so does my Author here that all who are not of their communion are Sectaries to whom by no means do agree the marks of the true Church which yet they say are all of them evidently to be found in theirs T. Nothing more common than for adversaries to give one another very ill names and that shall serve for half a confutation amongst ignorant people But names alter not the nature of things And as zealously as they of Rome do affect the name of Catholicks I doubt not but upon search they will be found as notorious Sectaries as any in Christendom whilst many of those whom they brand with that infamous title will appear to be true Catholick Christians if there now be or ever were any such in the world And in order to the proof of this pray let me hear what are those marks of the true Church L. They are said to be chiefly four that it is One Holy Catholick and Apostolick Church and this say they cannot be said of any Protestant Church and therefore not of our Church of England which is by them reckoned among Sectaries T. By these marks let us be tried Only take notice that no one particular Church can be stiled the Catholick Church as if a part was the whole But I say the Church of England which we are now chiefly concern'd to vindicate is a true and sound part of this One Holy Catholick and Apostolick Church and all the marks of a true Church do much more clearly and fully agree to it than to the Church of Rome But let me hear what they object to the contrary L. First they say it is not One that is it is not united because there are so many divisions in it Some will be Protestants some Presbyterians others Independents Anabaptists Quakers c. Nor can they be one whilst they acknowledg not one Head to determine controversies Whilst on the other hand the Papists pretend that they have this one Head one Faith the same Sacraments and so are all of one Religion and therefore having so much unity are to be own'd by this mark for the true Church c. T. In answer to this consider 1 That it cannot with any pretence of reason or Scripture be made the mark of a true Church that there shall be no divisions in it For were there not some to be found in the best and purest Churches immediately planted by the Apostles themselves As particularly in the Church of Corinth for which they are severely reproved 1 Cor. 1. 10 11 c. 2 Much less doth it become those of the Church of Rome to accuse others of divisions who have more and greater amongst themselves than can be found I believe in any other Church in Christendom They talk of one Head but sometimes they have had two or three Popes at once and that for several years together They are divided in points fundamental to their own Church as whether the Pope be above a General Council or the Council above the Pope Nor are they any more agreed where the Infallibility of which they boast so much is seated than about the Supremacy whether it be in the Pope or in a General Council or in both together Yea some say 't is neither in one or the other nor in both united as considered apart from the rest but in the whole body of the faithful as by them Religion is convey'd from one generation to another And are they not much better for an Infallible Judg of controversies whilst they are not yet agreed who he is and where this Infallibility is to be found In a multitude of other points are they divided as learned Writers of our Church have shewn at large and with great probability have some asserted that they hardly agree universally amongst themselves in any Doctrines but those wherein they agree with us 3 But again were they never so well united amongst themselves yet is this but the agreement of a Sect with it self and is far from proving them to be therefore the Catholick Church or any sound part of it As if suppose all the Quâ—kers were perfectly agreed together in all opinions and imagin their number was as great as the Papists are they therefore to be reckoned the Catholick Church because forsooth they are One amongst themselves Surely no since by their errors and their schism they divide themselves from all other Christians Thus whilst Papists are united in owning the Pope to be Christs Vicar on earth and the supreme visible Head over the whole Christian Church they do hereby only make a sect or faction let their number be never so great And by this means as well as many other ill opinions and practices which are imposed on the
confirming their belief of his Doctrine The Doctrine was to be believed but the miracle was to be seen which confirm'd that Doctrine To instance in one for all When the water was turn'd into wine Ioh. 2. it was now seen and tasted to be true wine only it was much better than common wine Otherwise do you think if it had still had the colour the smell and the taste of water that the people would have been perswaded it was turned into wine Would they have been satisfied with an odd story that the substance was wine though the accidents of water still remain'd or with any such idle unintelligible talk Would such a sort of miracle as this that could no way be perceived ever have been believed Or would the pretence to such miracles ever have gain'd Disciples to our Saviour And yet such a one is this of Transubstantiation L. So very strange and unaccountable it is that it never ought to be admitted without very good proof T. And is it not then almost as strange that ever any man should believe so absurd a Doctrine not only without good proof but even against the express words of Scripture as well as against his reason and senses L. No matter for sense and reason they cry but how do you prove it to be against Scripture T. It may be proved from those places which tell us of our Saviours being received into Heaven as Act. 3. 21. and he cannot at the same time be corporally present upon earth and in heaven too L. But did he not appear to St. Paul and others after his Ascension T. Yes he did so yet does not this prove him to be then corporally present for he might render himself visible to them without descending as he did to St. Stephen or he might appear to them in a Vision and make himself present to their imagination Or he might be said to appear to them by his Angel whom he sent For thus in Scripture it 's commonly said God appear'd to this or that man when he sent his Angel to him with some message But besides this the plain words of the Evangelists when they relate the institution of this Holy Sacrament do directly contradict this Doctrine of Transubstantiation For they tell us that our Saviour took bread and blessed it and brake it even the very same that he took that he blest and what he blest that he broke and what is this but true bread as to its natural substance Only in a mystical and spiritual sense it was made the Body of Christ by Consecration And thus also St. Paul calls it Bread after Consecration no less than three times in three verses together 1 Cor. 11. 26 c. L. This my Author grants but says it 's called so because the external accidents of bread do still remain T. That is because the colour shape and taste of bread do still remain with all other qualities of common bread Now I beseech you can there be any better or surer way to discover what is the substance or nature of a thing than by such accidents such outward sensible appearances as these How can we distinguish bread from a stone or water from wine but by the colour the smell the taste or the like And thus do we here distinguish bread from flesh and wine from blood and do believe that to be bread which is both call'd so in Scripture and which our own eyes discern to be indeed so L. But he says faith will teach us otherwise from the Word of God T. Nay on the contrary you see Gods word calls it bread after the Consecration and therefore both our faith and our senses assure us that it is bread Nor does this in the least contradict our Saviours words when he says This is my body for so it is in a spiritual sense whilst yet the substance of bread remains unchanged and therefore most properly is it called bread which it could in no wise be if no such substance was there Yet still we say that by partaking of these holy Elements of bread and wine we do really partake of Christs body and blood though in a spiritual manner according to St. Pauls expression 1 Cor. 10. 16. Do you judge then who keeps closest to Scripture in this point they or we L. To me it seems plain that the Doctrine and language of our Church is no less agreeable to Scripture than to reason And I still discover what injury they do us whilst they charge us with holding that the Sacrament is only the figure of Christs body T. It is as I have already said a most false charge for though it be the figure of his body and expresly called so by some ancient Writers yet we own it to be much more than so For in this holy Sacrament are given to us Christs body and blood whilst the blessings and benefits of his Death and Passion are made over to and bestow'd upon the worthy receiver And so our Church expresses it in the Office at the Communion We do spiritually eat the flesh of Christ and drink his blood Christ dwelleth in us and we in him we are one with Christ and he with us L. Yet they say we make the Sacraments of the New Testament in effect no better than the old since the Passover and such like were figures of Christ whereas in the New Testament is to be given the real verity T. A most plain difference we make whatever they say to the contrary for besides that our Sacraments are few and easie clear and intelligible it is to be considered that under the Law were used types and shadows which prefigured Christ to come and that somewhat obscurely whereas the Sacraments now used do most plainly shew him to be already come and to have died for our sins and risen again according to the Scriptures Herein moreover is made to us a more plenteous communication of grace and comfort as the fruit of his Death and Resurrection according to that of the Evangelist The Law was given by Moses but grace and truth came by Iesus Christ Joh. 1. 17. Yet after all we assert that the Elements made use of in these Sacraments of the New Testament are no more changed as to their natural substance than those of the Old that is they are still Sacraments outward visible signs and representations of Spiritual things and are not changed into those very things themselves which they are designed to represent and hold forth to us And this is granted by the Papists themselves as to one of the Sacraments viz. that of Baptism For the water herein made use of still remains water It is not turned into the natural blood of Christ and yet by virtue of that blood which this water represents are our sins washt away in this Laver of Regeneration Hence then it is most evident that the efficacy of a Sacrament consists not in having the natural substance of the Elements altered for then
their condition shall be let us leave to the just Judge of all men remembring the Apostles saying Not he who commendeth himself is approved but he whom the Lord commendeth How far the ill education and ignorance of any of them may serve to excuse or lessen their faults it becomes not us to determine But as to our selves we may safely assert that for us to go against the light of Gods Word and our own Consciences in professing their Errors and joyning in their corrupt Worship would be a piece of inexcusable and damnable wickedness Whereas on the other hand we may rest fully satisfied and assured that if we sincerely believe the Holy Gospel which is at this day purely and plainly taught in our Church and live in strict and stedfast obedience to the precepts of it which are dayly inculcated upon us we shall most certainly obtain that Eternal Salvation which in this Gospel is promised to all such obedient Believers Of this we are as sure as that God is true for Heaven and Earth shall sooner fail than one tittle of his Holy Word on which we depend L. Whilst we depend on this Word certainly we shall never be deceived or disappointed But methinks it 's very bold Language and little better than Blasphemy with which my Author concludes his Book when he says that his Roman Catholicks may at the hour of death with confidence use those words of an Ancient Writer O Lord if it be Error which we have believed we are deceived by thee for thou hast confirmed these things to us by such signs and prodigies as could not be done but by thee with more to that purpose T. This can only with truth be spoken concerning the Christian Religion to which God bare witness by mighty Signs and Wonders But to apply it to the false Doctrines of Popery is indeed no better than Blasphemy For neither our Saviour or his Apostles ever taught these Doctrines nor did God ever work a Miracle for the confirming of them L. Surely it would argue more modesty to suspect the weakness of their own judgment and better to examine their Cause rather than to charge God himself with deceiving them if they are deceived T. Very true but you know the Proverb None so bold as those that are blind otherwise certainly they have reason enough to suspect that Cause to be very weak which is supported by no better Arguments than these which your Author hath produced who yet no doubt hath given us the best he could devise of his own head or meet with in their Writers CHAP. V. Of the number of Sacraments with some other things briefly discust and the conclusion of the whole L. SIR I am now come to the end of my little Book and ought therefore to put an end to the trouble I have given you yet before we part will you please to satisfy me in one thing of which I find no mention in my Author T. I shall willingly when I hear what it is L. 'T is concerning the number of Sacraments for Papists charge it as a great defect upon our Church that we have but two whilst they say they have seven T. How little reason there is for this Charge will soon appear if you consider that as to four of these five which the Papists pretend to have more than we though we give them not the name of Sacraments yet we have the things themselves And as to the fifth there is not the least reason that we should receive or they retain it For your fuller satisfaction I shall name them to you and in a few words make good what I have said L. Pray will you please to do it and I shall trouble you with no more questions hereafter T. To the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper which both we and they receive they do further add Confirmation Holy Orders Marriage Penance and extreme Unction Now as to the name of Sacrament it 's a vain thing to dispute about words till we are agreed of the sense and meaning of them For if by Sacrament they mean any sacred rite or usage that may signify some grace or some good duty or by way of allusion may serve to some good purpose in Religion then instead of Seven they may perhaps reckon Seventeen Sacraments or many more And in this large and looser sense the Ancients commonly made use of the word giving the name of Sacrament to many things relating to Religion which are any way mystical or significant yea frequently they call our Religion it self a Sacrament or Mystery And if they of the Church of Rome will use the word in this large sense and so stile the several things now mentioned Sacraments let them enjoy their liberty I think it 's not worth contending about Only let them not say that we despise the things themselves because we think it not so fit to give them this name For by a Sacrament we understand as it 's exprest in our Church-Catechism an outward sign of an inward spiritual grace given unto us ordained by Christ as a means whereby we receive the same Grace and a pledge to assure us thereof Now in this sense we say that only Baptism and the Lords-Supper are properly to be called Sacraments being ordained by Christ's express command as a way and means for the bestowing of his Grace upon all that duly partake of them These are as it were the Seals of the Covenant of Grace as Divines use to stile them which all Christians if they have opportunity are obliged to make use of For hereby we do in a solemn manner profess our selves to be Christ's Disciples and engage our selves to walk in all holy obedience to his Laws and so make a Covenant with him and upon our sincerity herein we receive Grace from God to enable us for our duty and have an assurance of his favour and of all the blessings that flow from it in and through Jesus Christ. Thus hath our Lord plainly ordain'd that all who believe in him should be Baptized with Water in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost for the profession of our faith in him and for the receiving the remission of our Sins with spiritual Regeneration Thus did he institute the holy Communion commanding all Christians to celebrate the same in remembrance of him for a commemoration of his death till his second coming and hereby we partake of the Body and Blood of Christ for the refreshing and strengthning of our Souls Plainly then you see how these two Sacraments were ordained by Christ himself for the use of all Christians to be as it were the badges of their profession that hereby they might solemnly testify their consent to the Covenant of Grace and at the same time may receive the blessings of this Covenant But now this cannot be said of those other things which the Papists call Sacraments how useful soever any of them may be in other respects For though