Churches is taught as true and warrantable doctrine by diuers learned Protestants as by Cempnitius by Luther and Brentius Iacobus Andreas c. But now I will conclude this discourse touching Images with a most authenticall and strange miracle wrought by the Image of Christ and recorded by Eusebius Theophilact and Zozemene all auncient graue Wryters whose authorityes herein if we reiect we reiect by the same reason the proofe of all other things recorded by auntient Historiographers It was this The woman whom our Sauiour cured of the bloody flux caused to be made a brazen Image of Christ at the foote whereof did spring a strange hearb the which hearbe after it did ascend so high as to touch the scirt of the Image it had vertue to cure all diseases Which vertue no doubt God would not haue imparted to the Hearbe but only in manifestation that due respect might lawfully be giuen to the Image of Christ And thus far touching the Catholicke doctrine of Images Touching Prayer to Saincts TOuchinge Prayer to Saincts I will deliuer the Catholicke doctryne thereof in certaine Propositions which Propositions may searue as certaine graduall stips or degrees of this Controuersye The first Proposition may be this It is not lawfull to pray to Saincts as authours or principall dispensours of diuine benefitts to obtaine from them either grace or glorye or the meanes of obtaining our Eternall felicitie much lesse the Crawne of glory or heauen it selfe Since in this sense to pray to them were according to the iudgment of S. Austin and all Catholicks to make Saincts Gods And therefore if at any time the words directed to Saincts should sound otherwyse as when we say Our Lady healpe me c. We are heare to insist in the sense not in the naked words That is Our Lady healpe me by her intercession and prayers to her sonne and no otherwyse Euen as we fynd that S. Paule saith of hymselfe If I may saue some of them meaning of the Gentills And againe the sayd Apostle saith of hymselfe To all Men I am become all things that I might saue all meaning to saue all not as God but only healping them and furthering their Saluation by his preaching to them and by his prayers for them Which words of the Apostle being truly vnderstoode may searâ—e well to stop the Mouths of the Protestant Ministers for their often mistaking and misinterpreting of the Catholicke Doctrine touching prayer to Saincts The second Proposition Saincts are not our immediate Mediatours by way of intercession with God But whatsoeuer they demande or obtayne of God for vs they demaund and obtayne it through Christ and his Merits And according hearto we find that all the Prayers of the Church which are made to Saincts end with this clause Per Christum Dominum nostrum For we willingly acknowledge that no Man coÌ„meth to the Father by the Sonne And that their is but one Mediatour of Redemption though all the Saincts may be tearmed our Mediatours by way of Intercession The third Proposition The Saincts which reigue with Christ do pray for vs and this not only in generall but in particular That is for particular Men and for the particular Necessityes of the same Men. This is proued first from those words in Ieremy If Moyses and Samuel shall stand before me my Soule is not towards this People From whence it is inferred that Moyses and Samuel then being dead might and were accustomed to pray for the People of Israel Secondly the same is proued from the Example of Angells who do pray for vs and haue a care of vs in particular as appeareth out of seuerall passages of Scripture But if the Angells do pray for vs then much more Saincts seing so far forth as appertayneth to this function nothing is wanting to the Saincts in Heauen which Angells haue for they are endued with Intelligence or Vnderstanding and with Will they are euer in the presence of God they loue vs vehemently and finally they are equall euen with Angells Besids some priuiledges they haue in this point which are wanting in Angells to wit that Saincts are more conioyned and vnited members of the body of the Church and that they haue tryed our dangers and Miseries which Angells haue not Thirdly the former Proposition is proued from the many apparitions of Saincts which haue euidently testified that they do pray for vs euen in particular Of diuers such particular Apparitions See Eusebius Austin Basill Gregory Nazianzene Gregory Nyslene and Theodoret all which testimonyes of so auncient and reuerend Fathers to reiect touching matter of fact by answearing that all such relations are fabulous is in effect and by necessarie inference to take away all authority of Ecclesiasticall and humane Historyes The fourth and last Proposition Saincts and Angells are religiously and profitably inuoked and prayed vnto by liuing Men. This is proued First Wee reade that Iacob blessing the sonns of Ioseph thus saith The Angell which hath deliured me from all Euill blesse these Children wheare we see that Iacob expressly inuoketh these Angell Againe we reade thus in Iob. Call if any will answeare thee and turne to some of the Saincts Wheare by the word Saincts he meaneth Angells according to the exposition of Sainct Austin Secondly this last Proposition is proued from that that in both the Testaments the Liuing were inuoked and prayed vnto by liuing as in the first Booke of the Kings and in the last of Iob. In lyke sort in the Epistle to the Romans S. Pauli thus saith Brethren I beseach you that you all healpe me in your prayers for me to God Which Kynd of prayer the Apostle vseth in the Epistle to the Ephesians in the first to the Thessalonians in the second to the Thessalonians in his epistle to the Colossians to the Hebrewes So familiar and vsuall was this to S. Paull Therefore from hence I conclude that now it is lawfull to inuoke and pray to the said Men being now Saincts and raigning with Christ This Inference is most necessarye demonstratiue For if it be not now lawfull to pray to them It is either because the Saincts now in Heauen will not healpe vs with their intercession to God But this is not so seing the Saincts in Heauen enioye greater Charity then they had heare vpon earth Or els in that the Saincts cannot healpe vs with their prayers And this lesse true for if they could afore healpe vs with their prayers they being then but Pilgrims much more now they being arryued into their Country Or els because they do not know what we pray or demaund of them But this is false for looke from whence the Angells do know the Conuersion of sinners for which they so much reioyce in Heauen as we reade in S. Luke from the same source or wellspring
deuills being far absent from their Witches southsayers and coniurers do neuerthelesse heare their inuocations and coniurations As is warranted by all Experience Shall any Man then thinke that the blessed Saincts of Heauen are depryued of hearing the prayers and intercessions which the faythfull heare vpon Earth do make vnto them since otherwyse it would follow that spirituall substances by their losing of Heauen I meane the deuills by their fall did obtayne greater prerogatiues and excellencye then the soules of the Saincts do by gayning and ascending vp to Heauen an absurdity incompatible with the goodnes wisdome and Charity of God And thus much touching the doctryne of Prayer to Saincts The Catholicke doctrine touching Iustification by works Merit of works and Works of Supererogation TOuching Iustification by Works the Catholicks teach as followeth Iustification wheareby a Man being afore wicked and the Sonne of Wrath is become the Sonne of God is wrought by the healpe of Gods grace without any meritte of works on our syde and by the spirit of fayth and Charity infused by God in vs in the very Act of our Iustification Thus our Aduersaries may see that we do not ascribe our first Iustification to any of our works at all though they most wrongfully traduce vs to the contrary For we willingly acknowledge those words of the Apostle It is not of the willer or of the runner but of God who sheweth Mercy Secondly the Catholicks teach that after a Man iustifyed being of wicked become good he may encrease his first iustification by works That is he being already made iust by Gods grace and mercy may by his works become more Iust Which works are not those which are performed by the force of Nature as the Pelagians did teach and the Protestants do falsly charge the Catholicks but as they are performed by the spirit and grace of God and as they receaue their force vertue from our Sauiours Passion Concerning the merit of Works more particularly the Catholicks teach as followeth whose doctrine herein for greater perspicuity I will set downe in certaine propositions Which propositions do contayne certaine condicions necessarily requyred that Works may merit The first proposition is this That works may merit it is requyred that the partye who worketh be in state of grace and an adopted Child of God Thus we exclude all works from meriting which are performed by one who is not in state of grace that is who wanteth true fayth true hope true charity for such Works are performed by force of Nature only not by force of Gods grace The second proposition That works do merit a free liber all promise or Couenant of God is necessary by which his promise of reward made vnto good Works God in a manner obligeth himselfe to reward good works according to his promises Heere our Aduersary may see that we willingly confesse that no works of ours of themselues can merit as we abstract from them the promisse of God for without this promisse and Couenant of God made out oâ— his most mercifull bounty to remunerate good works we do willingly say with the Apostle The passions of this life are not condigne to the glory to come that shal be reuealed vnto vs. The third proposition That Works do merit it is according to the most probable opinion necessarily requyred that they cheifly preceede from actually or virtually Charity loue towards God That is that they be vndertaken cheifly and primatiuely for the honour and loue we beare to God From whence it followeth that no works which are not seasoned with this condicâ—on of Charity in God but haue to themselues only peculiar and lesse principall ends c 〈…〉 merit The fourth and last proposition which is implicitly included in the former Propositions That Works do merit they must take their worth and dignity from the 〈…〉 ritis of our Sauiours Passion and from thence receaue as it were a new tincture and dye Thus we see that originally and principally it is Christs meriâ—ts which do merit for vs and that our works are but once of the meanes whereby we apply Christs meritâ—s vnto vs. That the doctrine here set downe touching merit of works is sutable to the doctrine of the Catholicke Roman Church is euident euen from the authority of the Councell of Trent where we thus reade To them who worke well to the end of their life and do hope in God eternall life is giuen both as a grace and fauour mercifully promised to the Sonns of God through the meritts of Christ Iesus as also as a reward proceeding from the promisse of the same God faythfully to be giuen to their good Works and Meritts c. Thus the Councell The certainty of this doctrine of merit of works receaueth it cheife proofe from the holy Scripture and this from the testimonyes of Scripture of seuerall kinds First then from those places where eternall life is called Merces a wage or reward As Mathew Reioyce for your reward is great in Heauen Againe Call the workemen and pay them their hyre besides diuers others of like nature Secondly from those places wherein a heauenly reward is promised to men according to the measure proportion of their Works as where it is said The Sonne of Man shall come in the glory of his Father and shall render to eueryone secundum opera sua according to his works In like sort it is said God will render to euery one according to his works besides many other like places here omitted Thirdly from those testimonyes of Scripture which expresse the reason that works are the cause why eternall life is giuen thus we read Come you blessed of my Father possesse the Kingdome prepared for you es 〈…〉 iui enim dedisti mihi manducare for I was hungry and you gaue me to eate Againe in the same place Quia in pauca fuisti c. Because thou hast been faithfull ouer few things I will place thee ouer many things enter into the ioy of thy â—ord And in the Apocalyps These are they which are come out of great tribulation c. ideo sunt ante throâ—um Dei therefore they are before the throne of God In all which places the particles Enim Quiâ— Ideo are causases that is implying our shewing the reason and cause of a thing Fourthly from those texts in which a reward is promised to good Works euen by force of Iustice According hereto we reade God is not vniust that he should forget your worke As also that be thou faythfull euen vnto death and I will giue thee the Crowne of life See of this nature other texts quoted in the margent Fiftly and lastly from those passages wherein there is mention made of dignity or worth As where we reade The workeman is worthy his wage Agayne vt digni habeamini regno Dei c. That you may be had worthy the Kingdome of
His staying in the graue three dayes Ionas 2. His Resurrection Psalm 15. and 132. His AsceÌ„tiâ—n Psalm 109. Finally to omitt diuers other lesser passages The descending of the Holy Ghost Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premisâ—es I do fully acknowledg that in him and by him our Law which did serue but to shadow this time of Grace is now abrogated and therfore my selfe as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstratioÌ„s of the trueth of your Chistian Religion do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe a Christian though as yet but an analogicall and halfe Christian and with reference to the time of the Law and the time of Grace and the adumbration of the one in the other I thinke I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times The Euangelicall Law and the Leuiticall Ghospell since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied the Gohspel the Law complet and actually performed CARDINALL BELLARMINE LEarned Rabby I much reioyce at your change in Religion and indeed that precise correspondency which your selfe haue obserued betweene the Old TestameÌ„t and the New wherby you may se the Apostle had iust reason to say Omnia in figura contingebant illis is of force to corroborate and strengthen you in our Christian Faith against all those spirituales nequitiae or any other contrary assaults For now you se that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices and Ceremonies is taken away through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord and Sauiour Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination and confesse with the chiefe Apostle That there is no other name vnder Heauen then that of Iesus giuen vnto Men wherein we may be saued D. WHITAKER It is most true which my Lord Cardinall hath said for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed and indiuisible Trinity who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man who died to the end we should not dye Christus semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death euen the death of the Crosse for which thing God hath exalted him and hath giuen him a name which is aboue all Names that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen in Earth and vnder the earth Therefore he is to be your cornerstone wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation And comfort your selfe Micheas with this that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian MICHEAS All this I constantly beleeue But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me I se you Christians though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine yet through your many Controuersies in Religion do rest deuided amongst your selues like so many distracted and disordered troupes or sqadroÌ„s not affording Saluation on to an other soe as from whence I am departed I do well know but what part to follow I am most vncertaine And though I firmly beleeue that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued yet withall I as cnnstaÌ„tly beleeue that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ shall not be saued Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the ProtestaÌ„t for his destroying and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion to wit the Doctrine of Free-will of Purgatory of Praying to Saincts of Merit of workes and to omit many other controuerted points the Reall Presence in the Eucharist and Sacrafice of the Alter and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick The Protestant on the other side for the Catholicke his mantaining and beleeuing the said points doth style him Superstitious Idolatrous and as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary the one constantly affirming the other peremptorily denying as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede Here now my deuided Soule licke the dissressed prisoner who hauing broken the Iaile knoweth not what way to flie for his best refuge tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines is ignorant towards what shoore to saile if I be a Protestant I can be no Catholicke If a Catholicke I am no Protestant The on I can but be both I cannot be That threatens to me the brand of Heresy this of SuperstitioÌ„ and Idolatry O God that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour Vt in pessimis aliquid boni sic in optimis nonnihil mali CARDINALL BELLARMINE True it is that there are many differences in Christian Religion and each good mans greife is hereby the greater for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation and valew of them contention about Faith in a vulgar eye lesneth it But these you are to conceiue Micheas take their course not from the Faith of Christ for it is but one vna fides vnum baptisma but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities both Deuine and Humane Therfore Micheas the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate and intangle you build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion principally vpon Gods sacred Word as it is propounded and interpreted by Christ his Church and to her repaire in all your doubts since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words dic Ecclesiae et Ecclesiam non audieret sit tibi sicut Ethnicus et Publicanus Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions which are deriued through a continued hand of time euen from the Apostles Id ab initio quod ab Apostolis for it is true that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture but it is as true that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours against Scripture Read the Generall Councels with whome Christ is euer present for he hath promised when but two or three are geathered togeather in his name much more when seuerall hundreds he well be in the middest with them and obserue the Heresies condemned in them Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers and remember that sentence Interroga de diebus antiquis assuring your selfe that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them is agreable to the Faith first taught by Christ and his Apostles Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church which the Apostle himselfe for our greater security hath honored with the title of Columna et Firmamentum veritatis And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men who thinke to
they alleadge any one Orthodoxall Father of the Primitiue Church a circumstance much to be considered and insisted vpon interpreting such your testimonies in your construction And thus farre of this point where for greater expedition I do but skimme the matter ouer D. WHITAKERS I do not much prize the authorities of the ancient Fathers in interpreting the Scripture And furthermore you are to conceiue that seing the scripture hath not viâ—am vocem which we may heare Therefore we are to vse certaine meanes by the which we may finde out which is the sence and construction of the scripture For to seeke it without meanes is meerely ' enthysiasticòn et Anabaptisticum Now the meanes according to my iudgment and M. Doctour Reinolds are these following The reading of the scriptures the conference of places the weighing of the circumstances of the Text Skill in tongues diligence prayer and the like And who hath these and accordingly practiseth them is assured of finding the true and vndoubted meaning of the most difficult passages of the scripture and thereby is able to determine any controuersies in Religion CARD BELLARM. I do grant that these are good humane meanes for the searching out of the intended sence of the scripture But I will neuer yeild them to be infallible as here you intimate theÌ„ to be since this is not only impugned by experience of Luther and Caluin who would no doubt equally vaunt of their enioying these meanes and yet irreconcileably differ in the construction of the words of our Sauiour touching the Sacrament of the Eucharist but also it is most contrary to your owne assertion deliuered in one of your bookes euen against my selfe where you write of the vncertainty and perhaps falshood of these Meanes in this manner obserue what the meanes are such of necessity must the interprteation be but the meanes of interpreting obscure places of scripture are vncertaine doubtfull and ambiguous therefore it cannot otherwise fall out but that the interpretation must be vncertayne and if vncertaine then may it be false Thus you M. Doctonr and if I haue in any sort depraued your words then here challenge me for the same Now what say you to this Can it possible be that your selfe should thus crosse your selfe Or may it be imagined that your penne at vnawares did drop downe so fowle a blot of contradictioÌ„ O God forbid The ouersight were too greate Therefore we will charitably reconcile all and say that D. Whitakers Bellarmines aduersary in writing hath only contradicted the learned D. Whitakers cheife ornament of Cambridge But enough of this point from whence the weakenesse of this your last refuge to only scripture is sufficiently layd open MICHEAS I grant I am not conuersant in the authorities of the New Testament as they haue reference to the controuerted points of these dayes since my cheife labour hath beene employed in diligently reading the Law and the Prophets neuerthelesse I am acertayned M. Doctour that seuerall passages of the said Law and Prophets in a plaine and ingenuous construction do greatly fortify some Opinions defended by the Church of Rome I will insist for greater compendiousnes in two opinions taught as I am informed by the sayd Church within which two many other controuersies if not all are implicitl infolded The first is touching the euer Visibility of the Church in the time of the Messiâ—s Now what can be more irrefragably prooued then this article out of those words of the Psalmist He placed his Tabernacle in the Sunne As also out of that passage of Daniell Akingdome which shall not be dissipated for euer and his kingdome shall not be deliuered to an other people Agayne out of the Prophet Esay A Mountaine prepared in the top of Mountaines and exalted aboue Hills And finally more out of Esay Her Sunne shall not be set nor her Moone hid In all which predictions by the words Tabernacle a Kingdome a Mountaine her Sunne is vnderstood the Church in the time of the Messias according to the expositions of all our learned Iewes and Rabbins interpreting and commenting the sayd Prophesies The second article may be the Controuersie touching Free-will which I heare is mainteined by the Church of Rome but denyed by the Protestants within which question diuers others to wit of Predestination Reprobation the keeping of the Commandements Works c. are potentially included Now how euidently is Free-will prooued out of the writings of the Old Testament And first may occurre that of Ecclesiasticus He hath set Water and fire before thee stretch forth thy hand to whether thou wilt Before man is life death good and euill what liketh him shal be giuen him what more conuincing D. WHITAKERS Micheas I make smale accoumpt of that place of Ecclesiasticus neither will I beleeue the freedome of Mans will although he should affirme it a hundred times ouer that before man were life and death MICHEAS I did not expect M. Doctour that you should expunge out of the Canon of Scripture any part of the Old Testament but since you discanon this booke I will alleadge other places which were euer acknowledged for the sacred word of God by vs Iewes and to pretermit that text in Genefis of Caine hauing liberty ouer sinne as a place strangely detorted by some and diuers other texts in the old Testament proouing the same What say you of the like passage in Deuteronomy I call heauen and earth in record this day against you that I haue set before you life and death c. choose therefore life Where you see the very point of which you are so diffideÌ„t is ingeminated and reinforced Thus M. Doctour you see how much these sacred Testimonies do wound you herein as also do diuers other passages by me here omitted euicting Mans Free-Will though all of them haue bene accordingly interpreted by all ancient Iews and Rabbins as more fully you may see in Galatinus D. VVHITAKERS Touching your testimonies produced out of the old Testament and interpreted in the Papists sence by your owne Iewish Rabbins as witnesseth Galatinus take this for my answere I do not regard or neede your Galatinns neither do I rely vpon the testimonies of the Hebrewes And further knowe you both that it is as cleare that the scripture maketh for vs who are the Professours of the Ghosple as it is cleare that the Sunne shineth in his brightest Meridian Since we Protestants are d the little flocke we haue the vnction from the Holy one and can cry Abba Pater from all which the Papists are wholy excluded And this is sufficient to ouerthrow the proudest Romanist breathing CARD BELLARM. Sweete Iesus that thinges sacred should be thus prophaned and that the words of the scripture should be thus detorted from the intended sence of the scripture when all proofes whatsoeuer from the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church from the ioynt and most frequent
Lord the doctour you see is gone and indeed I much dislike his bitter eiaculation of reprochfull words against the Church of Rome little sorting to the presumed grauity of a christian Doctour but the matter is not great since obloquy is but basenes and the skumme of malice and that tongue which knowes not to honour cannot dishonour But now touching your learned dispute it hath I humbly thanke the Lord of Hoasts and your charitable endeauour wrought in me so much as that I well know towards what shoare I may anker and stay my heretofore floating and vnsetled iudgment I see it is already acknowledged euen by her enemies that the Church of Rome enioyed in her primitiue times a true perfect and incorrupt faith as the Apostle doth fully assure vs I see that your selfe my Lord partly by handling the Subiect in grosse partly by distribution of times in which this supposed change is dremed to haue happened partly by displaying the diuersity of the Protestants Opinions touching the first coÌ„ming of Antichrist who is said to haue beene the first who wrought this change and partly by other forcible arguments haue demonstratiuely and irrepliably euicted that since the Apostles there hath bene no change of faith made at all in the Church of Rome Finally I see that the examples of this imaginary change instanced by the Doctour who as I am aduertised hath more laboured in the search of this subiect then any other Protestant were so defectiue aâ—d maimed as that they receiue theire full answere and encounter both from your former discussed heads as also from your Lordship proouing a greater confessed antiquity of the said Articles then the instances do vrge and lostly euen from the Doctours liberall acknowledgment who plainly coÌ„fesseth that he knoweth not the time when this his change receiued it beginning Since then all these points are made so euident and vndeniable I grant they haue swaighed and ouer-ballanced my iudgment indifferently heretofore to either side enclining and haue enduced me indubiously to beleeue that the fayth of the Church of Rome at this day is as at the first it was to wit pure spotlesse and inchangeable But now seeing no man can be a perfect Christian except he actually enioy the Sacrament of Baptisme which is the first dore as you Christians teach that leadeth a man to the misteries of your Religion therefore most illustrious Cardinall I renouncing my former Iudaisme and wholy rendring my selfe a true disciple and seruant of Christ Iesus as acknowledging that the Redemption of Israell is in him come do here prostrate my selfe in desire to receiue this Sacrament euen from you that as your tongue is the cheife instrument vnder the highest for my beleefe of the Catholicke fayth so your hand may be the like instrument for the conferring vpon me the benefit of that sacred Mistery where by a man is first incorporated and as it were matriculated in the bosome of the Catholicke Church CARD BELLARM. Worthy Micheas I much ioy that our discourse hath wrought so happy a resolution in you as to embrace the Catholicke and Roman fayth and giue sole thankes to him therefore who is higher then the highest Heauen and yet as low as the Center of the earth who thus hath vouchsafed by his grace to descend to the bottome of your harte and let the remembeance of your precedent staine in Iudaisme be a spurre for your greater perfection in the Christian Religion So shall you resemble that body which receiueth it greater health from it former sicknes And be sure that euery day you encrease more and more in Christian vertues nulla dies sine linea And takeheed that you grow not lukewarme in this your resolution or come to a stand of your present feruour But remember that such motions of the soule of this nature which are stationary are therein become Retrograde since here not to go forward is to go backeward And as touching the precedent subiect of our discourse rest you assured that the faith of Christ first preached in Rome was neuer yet in any one dogmaticall point altered since it first plantation The Church of Rome was and doubtlesly is the true Church of Christ which Church is so farre from broaching change and innouation by her intertayning but any one Errour as that therefore it is most truly prophesied of it that it is a MouÌ„taine prepared in the top of Mountaines exalted about Hils It being indeed seated of such a hight as that neither the thundring fragors of the persecutours cruelty nor the windes of Hereticks speaches and endeauours were euer able to reach so high as by introducing nouelty in fayth to disioynt the setled frame thereof so true is the saying of that holy father whose fire of zeale brought him to the flames of Martyrdome adulterari non potest sponsa Christi incorrupta est et pudica Now touching your baptizing Micheas wee will take such present course therein as shall giue you all full satisfaction MICHEAS I humbly thanke your Lordship But I am further here to aduertise your Lordship that if so it might be thought lawfull and conuenient that he who heretofore denyed Christ might after be permitted to be a dispenser of the Mysteries and treasure of Christ I could then greatly wish that after I haue receiued the Sacrament of Baptisme at your hands I might be aduanced to the holy Order of Preisthood that so now in the last scene of my old age my endeauours of this nature hereafter to be attempted in the Catholicke Church might partly redeeme my former mispent labours in the Iewish Synagogue My single course of life and vnmarryed state best sorteth thereto and my owne desire is most vehement and forcing And indeed I am persuaded that the profitable talents of a good Christian ought in part to resemble the engendring riches of an vsurer who breeds vpon siluer and whose Tocòs or interest money is no sooner begotten then it begetteth So should it fare with a man of sufficiency deuoted to Christ his seruice who being become of late his adopted sonne should himselfe instantly labour to be a parent vnder Christ of other such like sonnes O how ineffable a comfort it is when a man may truly yet modestly say through his spirituall trauell fruitfully employed towardes others as your Lordship may now of me In Christo â—esu per Euangelium vos genui And how truly honourable is that profession of life which consisteth in the negotiation and trafiking as I may say of saluation of soules Et ero mercator in domo Domini Exercituum CARD BELLARM. I Commend much your great feruour herein But yet I hold it more secure to pause for a time to see whether this your resolution touching Priest hood being but the Primitiae of your spirit be steddy and permanent or whether hereafter it may alter and wauer And if so then would it follow that your present taking of that course would
Agens as here you say how then can we know that Berengarius Waldo Wicklefe c. were Protestants And if these and others were Protestants then was not Protestancy and the Mantayners of it wholy extinguished by the former Popes sedulity and diligence How do you extricate your selfe Ochinus out of this Labyrinth Agayne I say this your sentence is but a meere Imagination wrought in the forge of your owne brayne For you haue neyther proofe nor colour of proofe that either the names of Protestants in former ages should be concealed or their bookes or any other Records touching them should by the labored confederacy of the Popes and their followers be suppressed and made away And why then should here your bare asseueration be credited Secondly I vrge that such proceedings as here are pretended to be as the extinguishing the light and splendour of Christs Church for so many ages togeather do mainly impugne the Prophecyes of holy Scripture deliuered of it for we reade that it is sayd of Christs Church Her Sunne shal not be set nor her Moone hid That she shall not be giuen to another People but shall stand for euer That she shal be an eternall glory and ioy from Generation to generation All which Prophecyes besydes diuers others recited by your selfe afore tending to the exaltation and glory of Christs Church how dissortingly and disproportionably can they be auerâ—ed of the Protestant Church of former tymes If so the Annals Records and all other Monuments of it former being be wholy obliterated and extinguished Thirdly this Euasion contradicteth the more ingenious and playne acknowledgments of others of your owne Brethren who do teach that your Church for sundry ages hath remayned wholy inuisible or rather vtterly extinct I will here produce the authority only of D. Parkins His words are these For many hundred yeares past an vniuersall Apostasy hath ouerspred the whole face of the Earth And our Church hath not bene visible to the world Lastly and principally this your surmise impugneth all experience touching the cheife Occurrents of the same ages and times For first we find that the personall defects and blemishes of certaine Popes are registred in those tymes and the relation of them are at this present extant Neyther could the Popes preuent the same And from such relations do the Protestants and particularly you M. D. in some of your writings vpbraid vs with the lesse warrantable life of some Popes Now then these things standing thus how could the Popes hinder the registring of any Professours of fayth aduerse contrary to themselfs in those dayes It is absurd therefore to thinke that the Popes were well contented that their owne scarts should remayne to be seene by all posterity supposing it were their powers to preuent the same and yet should affectedly labour that all testimonyes of different professours in fayth from them but especially of Protestant Professours should be buryed in eternall silence and obliuion Themselfs not being able to forsee that protestancy should sweigh more in these dayes then any other erroneous fayth and Religion Againe the Examples of the Wrytings of Hus Wicklefe the pretended booke of Carolus Magnus the supposed booke of Bertram the connterfeyted Epistle of Vlrick and all other writings of the foresaid Hereticks or any others at this day yet extant not suppressed fight mainly with this your Opinion For were it not that the said Wrytings and bookes were yet remayning to the world the Protestants of these tymes could not haue knowne what articles of protestancy the said Heretickes did mantayne in those dayes Furthermore the very subiect of the Decrees and Canons of Catholicke Councels celebrated in all former ages is chiefly the condemning and anathematizing of particular Heresyes there verbatim set downe and expressed as they did rise in the same ages with commemoration and recitall of the Hereticall doctrine inuented and the person inuenting with all other due circumstances Ad hereto that your owne Brethren confesse what we here endeauour to proue Among whom D. Whitakers shall serue for all at this tyme who being glad to make clayme for Protestants of all such as in any sort resisted the Pope thus writeth to his Catholicke Aduersary Vestris historijs nostrae Ecclesiae memoria viget Et qui Pontificij regni res narrare conati sunt ij nostrae Ecclesiae sunt testis The memory of our Church florisheth euen in your Historyes And those who labored to relate the proceedings of the Popes Kingdome are become Witnesses of our Church Thus D. Whitakers Lastly we will adioyne to all the former experiences the historyes and Cronicles euen of the Protestants whose subiect taske designed labour is to relate and make mention of such strange new doctrines as did rise in euery age shewing how the said doctrines were not proued ouer in silence by the Church of Rome but how and when and in what Popes reigne they were openly gainsaid crossed and condemned by the said Church And all this the Protestant Historiographers do borrow from the Catholicks auncient Records for but for those Catholicke Records they could not tell how in these dayes to write of those matters This we see is performed very diligently by the Century writers in their seuerall Centuryes by Pantaleon in his Chronographia by Osiander in his Epitome Eccles And by Illyricus in his booke stiled Catalogus testium Veritatis qui ante nostram aetatem reclamarunt Papae And which is here to be noted as making more in our behalfe herein diuers of these opinions and doctrines thus related by these Protestants to haue bene condemned in former ages are such as are at this present mantayned for true doctryne by the Protestants Now from all these premisses we may fully gather how far those former ages or the Popes then liuing were from laboring and affecting to keepe in silence or suppresse any doctrine whatsoeuer or persons mantayning the same which did appeare to be repugnant to the faith and Religion of the Roman Church at those tymes But gentlemen I feare I haue bene ouer longe OCHINVS Learned Michaeas I do confesse I haue seldome seene the weaknes of an opinion more fully and irreplicably displayed then this of myne is by you at large euen by direct of seuerall reasons And therfore for euer after I am resolued wholy to disauthorize and depose it For indeed I see It is but a meere aery and vasperous Conceate instantly dissipated before the least beame of a cleare Iudgment NEVSERVS I do with you Ochinus acknowledge the transparency of it since an impartiall eye is at the first able to see through it But Michaeas I see no reason but that we may auer that the Protestant Church and the administration of the Word Sacraments were in all ages though the particular professours of it were latent and indeed inuisible through the raging tyranny and persecution wherewith the Popes of former times did afflict all those
serue only to bleare for the tyme the impenetrating and weake eyes of the ignorant do in the closure of all both by certaine necessary inferences as also in playne and expresse tearmes grant the point here controuerted to wit that the Protestant Church hath for many ages togeather bene wholy inuisible and not knowne to any one man liuing or rather that during such said ages it hath bene vtterly ouerthrowne destroyed and as it were annihilated and no such Church in being The proofe of which point shal be the subiect of this passage This point then is prooued two wayes and both from the penns of the Protestants First from their acknowledged want of succession of Pastours and of their like defect of sending by ordinary Calling Secondly from their manifest open complaints of their Churches inuisibility for former ages in expresse words or rather of it vtter extinction Nullity And as touching the first It is euident euen in reason it selfe that that Church which wanteth succession of Pastours ordinary Calling if any such Church could be must needes be inuisible at least at that tyme when such want is And the reason hereof is because this want necessarily presupposeth that there were not in that supposed Church any former Predecessours or Pastours at all which could conferre authority or calling to the succeding Pastours or Preachers But where no Pastours are there are no sheepe for it is written how shall they heare without a Preacher And where no sheepe are there is no Church And where is no Church there is no visisibility of it since euen Logicke instructeth vs that Non Eutis â—â—n est Accidens That the Protestant Church for many ages hath wanted all personall succession and ordinary Calling is ouereuident seeing besides that which hath bene sayd of this point already we find diuers learned Protestants to confesse no lesse For thus doth Sadellius write Diuers Protestants affirme that the Ministers with them are destitute of lawfull Calling as not hauing a continuall visible succession from the Apostles tymes which they do attribute only to the Papists And hence it is that many Protestants confesse that they are forced to flye to Extraordinary Calling which is immediatly from God without any help of man Thus for example Caluin saith Quia Papae tyrannide c. Because through the tyrannâ— of the Pope true succession of Ordination was broken off therefore we stand neede of a new course herein and this function or Calling was altogether extraorinary Thus Caluin And D. Fulke in like manner sayth The Protestants that first preached in these dayes had extraordinary Calling with whom agreeth D. Parkins saying The calling of Wâ—cklefe Hus Luther Oecolampadius Peter Martyr c. was extraordinary Thus we see that the Protestants confessing the want of personall succession in their Church as also the want of Ordinary Vocation and flying therefore to Extraordinory Vocation do euen by such their Confessions acknowledge withall the Inuisibility of their Church in those tymes and an interruption next before of all personall succession for if succession of Pastours had then bene really truly in being then had those men bene visible to whom the Authority of calling others to the Ministery had appertayned and consequently there had bene no need of Extraordinary Calling Which Extraordinary Calling is euer accompayned with Miracles as aboue is showed in the iudgments of the more sober Protestants or otherwise it is but a meere illusion And we haue not red or heard that any of those first Protestants who vendicated to themselues this Extraordinary Calling haue euer wrought in confirmation eyther of their Calling or doctrine any one Miracle OCHINVS I must confesse Michaeas that you haue discussed well of this poynt and in my iudgment very forcingly But proceed we intreate you to the second branch of your Proofe since I can hardly belieue that any Protestants will expresly acknowledge the Inuisibility of their owne Church for if they do then is the Question at an end and hath receaued it vttermost tryall that can be imagined MICHAEAS The euent will seale the truth of this point And first that immediatly before Luthers reuolt the Protestant Church was inuisible Vibanus Regius a markable Protestant confesseth so much But of the Protestant Church it visibility at Luthers appearance we haue already fully discoursed and therefore we will ascend to higher times M. Parkins then thus writeth of ages more remote We say that before the day of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the world Caelius Secundus Curio an eminent Protestant confesseth no lesse in these words Factum est vt per multos i am annos Ecclesia latuerit ciuesque hutus regni vix ab alijs ac ne vix quidem agnosci potuerint c. It is brought to passe that the Church for many yeares hath bene latent and that the Cittizens of this Kingdome could scarsely and indeed not as all be knowne of others D. Fulke confesseth more particularly of this point saying The Church in the tyme of Bonifacâ— the third which was anno 607. was inuisible and fleed into wildernes there to remayne a long season M. Napper riseth to higher tymes thus wrytinge God hath withdrawne his visible Church from open assemblyes to the harts of particular godly men c. during the space of twelue hundred and sixty yeares the true Church abiding latent and inuisible With whome touching the continuance of this Inuisibility agreeth M. Brocard an English Protestant But M. Napper is not content with the latency of the Protestant Church for the former tymes only but inuolueth more ages therein thus auerâ—ing During euen the second and third Ages meaning after Christ the true Church of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist hymselfe But Sebastianus francus a most remarkable Protestant ouerstripeth hearein all his former Brethren not doubting to comprehend within the said Inuisibility all the ages since the Apostles thus wryting for certaine the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure And that for these thousand and foure hundred yeares marke the lenght of the tyme the Church hath beene no wâ—eare externall and visible Which acknowledgement of so longe a tyme or rather longer is likewise made by D. Fulke in these words The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tyme. But D. Downham with whom I will heare conclude is not ashamed to insimulate the very tymes of the Apostles within the lyke latency thus wrytinge The generall defection of the visible Church foretouâ—d 2. Thessal 2. begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes Good God Would any Man hould it possible were it not that their owne books are yet extant that such eminent Protestants should confesse
the old Testament and absolutly to abandon and disclayme from the New And therefore let vs returne backe to Michaeas and the Doctour to acquaint them with this our finall resolution OCHINVS Michaeas and M. Doctour My selfe and Neuserus haue in the secretts of our soules passed our impartiall censures vpon this our Conference And we both acknowledge the full weight of Michaeas his resons in disprouall of your instances of our owne former euading answeres And our Conclusion is that we both assure our selfs that the ProtestaÌ„t Church had neuer any visible existence for these many last seuerall ages at the least And in deed I confesse when I do consider how Christ by his power wisdome and goodnes had established and founded his Church washed it with his bloud and enriched it with his spirit and discerning how the same is funditus auersa vtterly ouerthrowne I cannot but wonder and being desirous to know the cause I find there haue bene Popes who haue preuayled in vtter extirpation and ouerthrow of Christ his Church Here you haue my ceusure accompanyed with the true Reason thereof NEVSERVS I do fully conspyre in iudgment with Ochinus mooued thereto through the strenght and validity of Michaeas his Arguments And yet I hope this is no blemish eyther to you M. Doctour who haue most learnedly handled this poynt nor to our selfs but only to the weaknes of our cause for there are some vntruths so palpable and iniustifiable and among them rang the supposed visibility of our owne Church that neyther learning Art or the bestfiled words which commonly 〈◊〉 the eare of credulity are able to set a good gayne vpon them Therefore Michaeas to be snort in beleiung that the Protestant Church for many centuryes hath bene wholy inuisible Ochinus and my selfe are wholy yours MICHAEAS I much reioyce thereat and I hope notwithstanding both your former acerbity of speeches that now vpon your second and more serious renew of this point the acknowledgment of this one Truth wil be a good disposition for your further encertaynment of the Catholicke fayth since a dislike of the Protestant Church implyeth in itselfe a fauorable respect to the Catholicke Church which Church hath euer bene houored with a perpetuall visibility OCHINVS Stay Michaeas Not so You are ouer hasty your praeÌ„ is as yet not gotten and your credulous expectation ouerrunne your iudgment Know you therefore first that touching your Church at the stearâ—e whereof that Romish Antichrist doth sit we hould it not as aboue we protested to be the Church of God And then it matâ—reth nothing with vs whether your sayd Antichristian Church haue euer since it first being bene visible or no For though we teach that the true Church must euer be visible yet we teach not conuertibly that what Church hath euer bene visible the same is the true Church Furthermore Michaeas and M. Doctour take both you notize that the confessed want of a continuall visibility and of the administration of the word and Sacraments ministreth to vs a great suspicion whether the Church of Christ be that Church of God which is so much celebrated by the Prophets of the Old Testament and consequently whether Christ be the true Messias of the World For if he had so been doubtlesly he would not so quickly haue repudiated his intemerate and chast spouse for so the true Church of God is after his departure from hence NEVSERVS What Ochinusâ—ath â—ath deliuered though perhapps with amazement to you both I do here iustify And as it is euident that the former Prophecyes haue not been actually performed in Christ his Church So we must needs rest doubtfull at the least through want of the performance of the sayd Predictions whether Christ be that Redeemer of the World which was promised to the Fathers of the old Law And whether he had true authority to erect this Church of which he hath made himselfe Head â—or certainly the auncient Predictions deliuered in a propheticall spirit touching the Messias and his Church are infallibly to be performed in the Messias his Church MICHAEAS How now my Maysters Is this the fruit of my refelling your Churches Visibility Tends your approbation of my former discours to this Whether ayme these strange and fearefull speeches of yours Will you disclayme from Christ as your Redeemer because the Prophecyes of the old Testament touching the expansion latitude and continuall visibility of the Church of God are not performed in the Protestant Church And will you not confesse the sayd predictions to be fulfilled at all because they are not fulfilled by that way and meanes as your selfs would haue them Take heed do not obliterate and deface those fayre impressions charactered in your soules at your Baptisme neyther now diâ—auoâ—â— your then taken first now O mercifull God how ignorant are you in these matters And then more miserably ignorant it that partly through learning you are become ignorant Do you thinke to honour the Father by dâ—shonoring the Sonne euen that Sonne in whome the Father tooke such ineffable contentment Hic est filius meus dilectus in quo mihi complacui Certayne it is that if you perseuer in iudgment as your words import you deny him for your Sauiour who had a Father without a Mother a Mother without a Father The first argued his Diuinity the second his immaculate and pure Natiuity Quod de Deo profectum est 〈…〉 eus est Dei Filius Vnus Ambo You deny him whose body was framed of such an admirable and delicate constitution and temperature as that the earth did then contrary to it accustomed manner euen power it influence vpon Heauens To be shorâ— you deny him who gaue himselfe 〈◊〉 Redemption for all who tasted death for all who tooke away the sinnes of the World and finally who was Sauiour of the world and reconciliation for our sinnes In the tyme of whose Passion death did euen â—euiâ—e and Eclips did enlighten Lux in tenebris lucet tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt But why labour I to celebrate his byrth who is from all eternity or to performe his exequies who cannot dye Mors illi vltrà non dominabitur And by you assured that who contemne Christ the Redeemer of all flesh must needs contemne God the Authour of all flesh And where you call the Pope that Romish Antichrist see how malice seeleth vp the eye of your iudgement you mantayne is seems that the true Christ and Messias is not yet come How can the Pope then by your doctrine be Antichrist since Antichrist you know is to come after not before the true Christ Againe for prouffe that the Pope is Antichrist you no doubt will make show to rest vpon the wrested authority of the New Testament And shall not then the said New Testament be of the like authority with you to proue that Christ is the true Messias OCHINVS Tush Michaeas This is but
thereof Lastly this Inference drawne from the state of the old Testament and applyed to the New is most inconsequent Both because the New Testament is better established then the old seing to it is promised that the gates of Hell shall not preuayle against Christs Church And also it is styled The pillar and foundation of truth And finally in that the Peoples of the Iewes were not the Vniuersal Church of God as the People of the Christians are And therefore out of the Iewish Synagogue there were diuers others of the faythfull and Iust as Melchisedech Iob Cornelius the Centurion the Eueuch of Queen of Candice c. This ended this Triffler in pag. 6. seuerall other places meÌ„tioneth the vsuall Obiection taken from the words of Elias saying relictu sum solus But this is fully satisfyed in the first part or begining of the former Dialogue In the next place to wit pag. 10. he commeth to depres the glory of the Church of Christ during his aboade here vpon earth and tyme of his Passion but all this most impertinently seing the radiant splendour and Visibility of Christ his Church was cheiffly to beginne and then for euer after to continue till the worlds end after the descending of the Holy Ghost and not before This done the Authour commeth to the tymes of the Tenn Persecutions by the Heathen Emperours prouing from thence the obscurity of Christs Church in pag. 25. To which I answere that these Persecutions according to the nature of persecution were so far from making the Church of Christ in those dayes inuisible as that it became thereby most visible seeing none are persecuted but visible Men And the very names of the cheiffe Martyrs of those dayes are yet most fresh and honorable in the memoryes of all good Christians euen to this very hower they remayning yet registred in the Ecclesiasticall Historyes both of Catholicks and Protestants In pag. 26. he instanceth in the tymes of the Arians and produceth Saint Ieromes testimony and words to wit The whole World did sâ—ght and wounder that it was Arian from which authority he would proue the Inuisibility of Christs Church in those dayes But here the Authour discouereth his ignorance For here First Ierome calleth that by the figâ—â—e Synecdoche the whole World which is but a part of the World S Ierome meaning only of certaine parts of Christen 〈◊〉 Secondly S. Ierome here taketh the word Arian in a secundarye signification For here he calleth them improperly and Abusiue Arians who through Ignorance did subscrybe to the Arian Heresy For he speaketh of that great number of Bishops which came out of all parts of Christendum to Arimine and were deceaued by the Arians through their mistaking of the greeke Word Omosios and there vpon Materially only they subscrybed to the Heresy of the Arians But the same Bishopps being after admonished of their errour did instantly correct the same and bewayled their mistaking with teares and penance Thus we se the true relation of this poynt really proueth an actuall Visibility of the Orthodoxall Christians at that very tyme. Pag. 27. He insisteth in Athanasius and Liberius as the only defendours in those dayes of Christs Diuinitie and consequently that the Church of Christ did only rest in them two For thus he wryteth The Church for any externall show was brought low for if any body held it vp it was Athanasius who then played least in sight and durst not appeare Heere is strang and wilfull mistaking for though it be granted that Athanasius in regard of his feruour and learning was more persecuted by the Arians then any other Bishop yet to â—auer that himselfe alone or Liberius did only impugne the Heresy of Arius and that there were no other Orthodoxall Beleiuers at that tyme is most improbable or rather most absurd This is proued first from the Councell which was assembled cheifly for the suppressing of the Arian Heresy at which Councell Athanasius hymselfe was present This Councell consisted of three hundred Bishopps and more the greatest part whereof by their voyces did absolutly condemne the Arian Heresy Now how can it be conceaued that all the said Bishopps speaking nothing of the Orthodoxall Laity of that tyme excepting only Athanasius should instantly either a fore or after apostatate or through feare of Persecution externally profes the Arian Heresy Againe the truth of this poynt is further confirmed from the Epistle which Athanasius and the Bishops of Thebes and Lybia gathered together in the Councell of Alexandria did wryte to Pope Paelix the Second of that name wherein they vnanimously protest to defend with all Christian resolution their Orthodoxall fayth against their Enemyes the Arians Thirdly the falshood of the former Assertion is euicted from that that many Fathers and Doctours liuing in the very age of Aâ—hanasius and Libertus and diuers of them euen in the dayes of Athanasius and well knowne to hym did refute and contradict ex professo the Arian Heresy in their learned wrytings As for example Basil Gregory Nazianzene Gregory Nyssene Cyrill of Ierusalem Hilarius Ambrose Epiphanius and some others Now in respect of the Premisses can it be but dreamed that there should be no Professours of the Diuinity of Christ in those dayes but only Athanasius or Liberius Pag. 25. The Pamphleter leauing examples authorityes descendeth to Reason thus arguing Faith doth much consist of things which are not seene Therefore seing we beleiue the Holy Church as an article of our fayth it followeth that it needs not to be euer eminently visible or apparently sensible vnto vs. Learnedly concluded Therefore for the better instruction of this Pamphleter he is to vnderstand that in the Church of God there is something to be seene and something to be beleiued We do see that company of men which is the Church and therein the Church is euer visible But that that Company or Society is the true visible Church of God that we see not but only beleiue Euen as the Apostles did see that very Man which is Christ the Sonne of God but that he was the Sonne of God this the Apostles did not see but only beleiue In pag. 28. and 29. as also in some other pages afore he much insisteth in the words spoken of the Woman in the Reuelations cap. 12. of whom it was prophecyed that she should flye into the Wildernes affirming that by the Woman is vnderstood the Church which is not to be seene in tyme of persecution To this I answere first this passage being taken from out of the Reuelations cannot as euidently to vs men proue any thing seing the Reuelations being deliuered in visions prophecyes many of them being yet vnaccomplished and figuratiue speeches we cannot so easily apprehend the true sense meaning of them Secondly What diuers learned Catholicks and some Protestants do vnderstand by the Woman in the reuelations differently from the vrging of
refuge enforced to compart hearein with the very Anâ—baptists fleeing for the interpreting of the Scripture to the testimony of Gods Spirit and immediate instruction of the Holy Ghost Sortably hearto we find that the foresaid D. Whitakers to reâ—er others to the Margent thus wryteth Omnes linguarum imperiti c. Al those who are ignorant in the tongues though they cannot â—udge of places whether they be truly translated or not yet they apprâ—â—e and allowe the doctrine being instructed by the Holy Ghost Thus he O you sensles Galatians who haue bewitched you For may not any â—obler Wibstar or other Mecanical fellow as by experience we daily find they do flee to this refuge for their interpreting of scripture at ouching themselfs in the interpretation thereof to be peculiarly enlightned with the spirit and instruction of the Holy â—ho 〈…〉 Which being granted what Heresies so absurd which these ignorant fellowes will not attempt to mantayne And thus far to proue that the true preaching of the word and a due administration of the Sacraments which resulteth as aboue is said by sequele out of the former Note of true preaching cannot be appoynted as Notes to vs for our direction to finde out the true Church of Christ within which we are bound vnder payne of eternall damnation to implant our selses I will suâ—uect to thâ— Premisses this pertinent aâ—imaduersion following It is this When the Catholicks do demand the Protestants to set downe certaine Notes of the true Church And they answeâ—riâ—g that that Church is the true Church which enjoyeth a true preaching of the Word and a due and auayleable administration of the Sacraments Now heare I auer that this description of Notes is but our owne question reâ—urâ—ed vs back in other tearms and consequently but a Sophisme â—â—nsistiâ—g in an idle circulation of the same poynt inâ—ested with a new forme of words For when I demand which is the true Church I vertually implicitly and according to the immediate meaning of my Words demauÌ„d which Church is that which enioyeth the true preaching of the Word and the true vse of the Sacraments since only the true Church is honored with this Kynd of preaching and distribution of Sacraments The Protestants then answearing that that is the true Church whearein are foâ—d the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments do they not giue me back my owne Question varyed in other phrazes being no other thing in sense then to say That Church which enioyeth the true preaching of the word due vse of the Sacraments is that Church which enâ—â—yeth the true preaching of the Word and due vse of the Sacraments Most absurde being but Demonstratio eiusdem per Idem iustly exibilated out of all schooles Heare now I will end this first part of this Question of the Protestants Notes of the Church Admonishing the Reader of one thing to wit that whereas S. Austin and other Doctours do say that out of the Scriptures we learne which is the Church This is so to be vnderstood that we are able to proue from the scripture wheare the Church is but this not as from a Note of the Church which is the poynt only heare issuable but only because the scripture teacheth which are the Notes of the Church in teaching of what nature and quality the Church ought to be In this next place we will handle the foresaid question Hypotetically and by supposall only That is we will imagin for the tyme that the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments are the Notes of the Church to vs. To this end we will call to mynd what diuers learned Protestants do teach hearein Caluin thus saith Pastoribus Doctoribus earere nunquam potest Ecclesia c. The Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours to preach the Word and administrâ—r the Sacraments Doctour Fyeld confirmeth the same in these words The ministery of Pastours and teachers is absolutly and essentially necessary to the being of a Church Briefly Doctour Whitakers affirme That the said Notes being present do constitute a Church being absent do subuert it Now all this being granted I confidently auer that the force thereof doth most dangerously recoyle vpon our Aduersaries since it irrephably proueth that the Protestant Church hath bene contrary to the Nature of the true Church at seuerall tymes or rather for seuerall ages together wholy extinct and annihilated Sine during many ages it hath bene vterly voyde depryued of Pastours and Doctourr to preache the Word and administer the Sacraments That the Protestant Church hath during so many reuolutions of yeres absolutely wanted all Pastours and Doctours to preach the word and dispence the Sacraments is euicted in generall from the confessed Inuisibility of the ProtestaÌ„t Church for many Ages concerning which subiect I refer the Reader to the perusing of the Second part of the Conuerted â—ew out of which I will discerpe certaine Confessions of the learned Protestants First then Sebastianu Francus a Protestant heretofore alledged thus wryteth For certayne through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departuâ—e and for these thousand foure hundred yeres the Church hath bene no wheare externall and visible D. Parkins in lyke sort thus confesleth We say that before the dayes of Luther for many hundred yeres an Vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the World In regard of which confessed latency of the Protestant Church Caluin had iust reason as presuming his owne Brethrens preaching of the Word to be true thus to say Factum est vt aliquot secul spura Verbi praedicatio euenuerit c. It was brought to passe that the pure preaching of the Word of God did vanish away for the space of certaine ages The perspicuity of which poynt I meane of the inuisibility of the Protestant Church in former ages will more easely appeare if we insist for Example but in the ryme immediatly before Luthers Apostasy of what tyme it is thus confessed by D. Iewell as taking his doctryne to be the truth The Truth was vnknowne at that tyme and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Hulderick Swinglius first came vnto the knowledg and preaching of the Ghospell Thus we see that the acknowledged Inuisibility of the Protestant Church demonstratiuely prooueth the want of the former Protestant Notes to wit the preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments during all the tyme of the said granted in Visibility And that therefore the Protestants haue much endangered themselfs assigning the said Notes for the Notes of the true Church Now that the setting downe of the forsaid Notes do make for vs Catholicks is no lesse cleare then the former poynt for seing it is granted that Pastours and Doctours must be in the Church till the
Brother because an Oâ—pring was then begotteÌ„ of that former Mariadg to wit the daughter of Herodiades who so pleased the King with dansing that she obtayned the heade of S. Iohn Baptist That this daughter was the daughter of Herodiades begotte by the Brother of Herod is acknowledged by the testimony of Chrisostome Secondly I further answeare to this example of Herod that the sinne of Herod was not only Incest but also adultery since Herod did marye the wyfe of his Brother he being yet liuing as S. Ierom witnesseth out of auncient historyes and Iosephus auerreth the same Thus far then of this poynt to show that all the Precepts of Leâ—iticus touching the prohibited degrees in Mariadg are not commanded by the law of Nature and that they do not oblige Christians by diuine Law for the euer obseruing of them But that some of them are in themselfs dispensable And consequently that the Church of Christ may vpon most vrgent Occasions sometymes dispense with some of the said Precepts Now heare then appeareth the inconsidrate and rash obloqâ—y of our Aduersaries charging the Pope that he teaching Mariadg to be a Sacrament consequently by his owne doctrine vndertaketh and presumeth to alter the Matter or Essentiall parts of a Sacrament which was first instituted by Christ and therefore inaltorable by Man To which false aspertion I answeare that neither the Pope nor the Church can change the essentiall parts of this or any other Sacrament for we are heare to conceaue that the Matter of this Sacrament is not the ioyning together of euery Man or woman since then this Sacrament might be perfected betweene the Father and the Daughter but only the ioyning together of Lawfull persons Now which are lawfull persons for Mariadg Christ did not appoint or set downe but only a humane Contract betweene lawfull persons being presupposed Christ himselfe did aduance this coniunction to the dignity of a Sacrament Therefore the Church or the Pope doth only determine who are to be accounted Lawfull Persons for the contracting of mariadge And in this sort the Church doth only prepare the Matter or foundation fitting for this Sacrament But doth not nor can alter and change the essentiall parts of the Sacrament of Mariadge And herewith I conclude this short discours touching this subiect That the Catholicks do not expunge out of Gods writ or reiect those words in the Decalogue Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. But that they willingly acknowledge them as part of the Decalogue howsoeuer they be not sometymes set downe in Cathechisâ—es and Primars VVHereas the Protestants do charge the Catholicks to conceale through their affected fraud in their Catechisâ—nes and Primars one commandement and so to expunge it out of Holy Writ To wit Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image nor the likenesse of anything aboue in Heauen or on earth beneath neyther of those things which are in the waters vnder the earth Thou shalt nor adore them or worship them c. This I say is eyther a fraudulent or an ignorant mistaking of our Aduersaries For the truth is those words heere recited do but make one and the same Commandement with those first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me these later being but a more full explication of the first words and consequently may be omitted sometimes in a short numbering or setting downe of the Commandements This is thus prooued Euery Image is not prohibited in the Decalogue or ten Commandements but only that which may be truly called an Idoll that is an Image which is taken for God or which representeth God to be that thing which God is not Therefore when it is sayd Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. the exteriour Act of Idolatry is forbidden But in those first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me the internall Act of Idolatry is prohibited Of which point most at large Saint Austin discourseth Now that Images are not absolutely forbidden by the law of God appeareth in that the Scripture telleth vs that God himselfe commanded Images to be made According heere to we reade in the booke of Kings that God commanded the Images of the Cherubins Lyons and Oxen to be made In the Booke of Numbers the brazen serpent And in Exodus the Images of the Cherubin to be made From whence we may infallibly conclude that the making of Images is not absolutely forbidden by God as a distinct precept from the first but only so farre forth as the Images be taken for God and consequently that as is aboue said these words forbidding the making of Images do but make one the same Commandement with the first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me And therefore the Catholicks do not fraudulently conceale one of the ten Commandements as our Aduersaryes do in their Pulpits tragically complaine Againe Yf all Images should be absolutly prohibited in the former words of the Decalogue then should it follow that the Precepts of the Decalogue should not be only ten but eleuen or twelue an inference incompatible with the Scripture it selfe which in expresse words teacheth that there are but ten Commandements The necessity of this Inference is thus prooued It is granted on all sides that those words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me is one Precept That thou shalt not take the name of God in vayne is an other A third Thou shalt keepe holy the Saboath day A fourth Honour thy Father and thy Mother A fift Thou shalt not kill A sixt Thou shalt not commit adultery A seauenth Thou shalt not steale An eight Thou shalt not beare falfe witnesse against thy neighbour A ninth Thou shalt noâ— couet c. Now that Thou shalt not couet c. is eyther to be deuyded into two precepts so as the ninth Precept shal be Thou shalt not couet thy neighbours wife the tenth Thou shalt not coâ—ct thy neighbours Oxe nor his Asse nor any thing that is his Or els those word Thou shalt not couet c. with all the words following to wit his Wife his Oxe his Asse or any thing that is his do make but one precept or Commandement Yf they ought to be deuided into two then followeth it that those words Thou shalt not make any grauen â—mage c. shal be the eleuenth Commandement contrary to the Scripture or that this is not a distinct precept froÌ„ the first videlicet Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me As Clemens Alexander Saint Austin all schoolemen and Latin Catechismes do teach And then it followeth that not euery grauen Image is forbidden in these words but only that which is taken for an other God Now if supposing further that that thou shalt not couet c. be only one Precept as some other fathers do hould then to make vp the tenth Commandement all those words Thou shalt not
being a Professed Deuine shal be in those disputâ— your cheifest opponent and Antagonist And if any of our Doctours shall by writing impugne your said discourses you shall giue your faithfull promisse to reply thereto And lastly you shall pray for the well-fare of his Maiesty vnder whose happy and clement gouerment your former Transgressions are so mildly chastized VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord. I willingly accept of the Disputation Where I doubt not but to lay open at full the superstition of that Man of sinne But what Must in the meane tyme Michâ—as a member of Antichrist be freed from imprisonment and passe thus vnpunished Must the Whore of Babylon be entertayned among vs in her followers no worse then a chast and inteâ—erate Virgin Shall the words spoken in the Dragons voyce be so preuayling as to enchant the eares of the faythfull with her pleasing yet poysenous musicke Breifly shall Heresy Superstition and Idolatry the worst of all euill endeauour among vs and that in our Vniuersity to take place in the Soules of Christians with all impunitie and as exempt from controule Yf so then come O Lord of heauen hasten thy approach Ouerrunne the earth with an irresistable prosternation of all Creatures and reduce all things of their last Period and dissolution for now it seemes the tyme is that Gog and Magog the forces of Antichrist are let loose to ceaze vpon the faythfull without any gainsaying or opposition and to beget in mans soule a giddy dissipation of all his intellectuall powers MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Proijcis ampullas sesquipedalia verba You mouth it ouer loudly and vse very turgent and swelling words agaynst vs poore distressed Priests Catholicks Whos 's shyeld in the meane tyme is Patience whose armour our Confidence in God and whose recrimination rests in words of myldnes and charity Maledicimur benedicimus blasphemamur obsecramus But my very good Lord. To turne my speeches vnto you Touching this your sentence how innocent soeuer I am I do vndergoe it with all humblenes of mynd and without the least reluctation for I haue red Non iudices contra iudicem And I embrace it the more willingly since I hope that by this meanes the radiant and most shyning Truth of the Catholicke Doctryne in the former discussed Poynts will in the fight of so noble and worthy an Auditory as the famous Vniuersity of Oxford is more easily dispell the myst of all contrary Nouelis 〈…〉 e. Touching my Loyall duty to his Maiesty my prayer is this I speake not in a Dialogizing and feigned manner but plainly sincerely and seriously in the sight of God and his Angells God pres 〈…〉 ue King Charles and his Royall Queene with a prosperous and blessed Domination and gouerment ouer this Nation Grant to them the happynes to branch themselues forth into many disâ—ente and Progenyes from generation to generation And finally vouchs 〈…〉 fe most mercyfull God that the greatnes of this their temporall 〈…〉 ity may serue as a Type or â—dumbration to figure out their greater eternall Beautitude in the world to come And thus with bended knee and hart prostiated in all du 〈…〉 full humility and with all remonstrance of thankefulnes for this your â—l 〈…〉 ency and myldnes of Iudgment and sentence I take my last fare well with your good Lordship VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord must your former iudgment passe vnaltered and must it not be accompained with any chastizement at all L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE M. Vice-Chancelour Content your selfe with my former sentence It shall stand an oculus â—uus nequam est quia ego bonus sum I hope you will haue aduantage enough against him in your future disputation and it is more honour for you to haue the Victory ouer his Cause then ouer his Person And indeed it is inhumanity to depresse and waigh downe a poore old Man and a stranger with multiplicity of miseryes your selfe is a Schollar and therefore you are the â—ore to commiserate him being a Schollar And so with these my last words both of you may depart from this barre at your owne pleasure VICE C-HANCELOVR My Lord. Since such is your resolution I must rest satisfyed therewith and so I take my humble leaue of your Lordship As for you Michaeas I will not take any formall farewell with you because I hope according to my L. sentence deliuered I shall meete with you in our Vniuersitie this next Commencement at what tyme I will anatomize and dissect that Wh 〈…〉 re if Bab 〈…〉 lon and strike her in her Mayster veyâ—e and will to your irreperable disgrace display the falshood and absurdities of all your former dispersed Popish doctryres when your Auditour shall easily perceaue that you in your former wrytings did much pertake of the byrd that owed the wing from which you borrowed your penne And so till then I bid you A 〈…〉 eu MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour I do contemne these your Lucian and scoffing vaunts vnworthy to proceede from the mouth of a graue and learned Man At the tyme appoynted I meane to be present in your Vniuersity where I trust through the ayde of him whose cause I am then to mantayne to make good iustify all my former Catholicke doctrynes Touching your malignant demeanour for I can tearme it no better agaynst me throughout the whole Processe of this cauillous accusation know you that as all Christians in generall so Pryests and Catholickes more peculiarly of which number I am one are bound to requyte good for euill imitating therein our Lord who Cum malediceretur non maledicebat cum pateretur non commâ—nebatur Therefore in charitate Dei patientia Christi I freely forgiue you and will affoard you my dayly Prayers for your Conuersion and sauing of your Soule And with this M. Vice-Chancelour vntill the tyme set downe of our future disputation I leaue you FINIS GOD SAVE THE KING THE CONCLVSION to the Academicks of both the Vniuersities LEARNED and worthy Academicks Now Michaeas the Conuerted law hath acted his last Scene And new he heare pulleth off his visard vnder which in the former Dialogues he masked and taketh his last farewell with you in the playne and naturall Dialect of an 〈…〉 Pryest the Authour of the sayd Dialogues You haue heare perused the points discussed It hath in the former Dialogues I hope irrefraâ—ably bene proued that since the Apostles dayes euen to Luthers reuolt Our Cathelicke fayth without chanâ—e hath euen bene professed the ProtestaÌ„ts fayth hath neuer bene professed What demonstration more choaking You also haue seene with what disaduantage diuers of your Professours in regard of the most iust retorting of it vpon themselfâ— haue in greate wast and profusion of words wrongfully promisâ—uously charged all Catholicks with the hatefull Cryme of Disloyaltye Lastly heare hath bene laid open before you besids some 〈◊〉 discourses of certain Catholicke doctrines the venerable Antiquitie of Priesthood the lyke antiquity of the