be there no openers or readers or lookers vpon Bookes in heauen or hell Thus Pope Gregorie is answered Cap. 12.32 yet that you may euidently see how insufficient this place of Mathew is to found Purgatorie vpon I will set you downe diuers sufficient and full answeres which take away the force of all Popish collections And first we may well aske what is meant by this world and the world to come For albeit men commonly take this world to be the space intermedial between a mans birth and his death which makes as many worlds as there be men or shall be and euerie world to haue a seuerall beginning and ending some past some present some to come yet if I should vnderstand it otherwise for the whole cōtinuance of this world 2. Pet. 3.10 till it bee dissolued in the great day of God and that same new heauen and newe earth bee made whereof the world to come shall consist the case would be cleane altered for then the Papists must not seeke for purgatorie in the world to come as they did before but in this world where it is impossible to finde it when the blind man in Iohns gospel saith since the world began Ioh. 9.32 was it not heard that any man opened the eies of one that was borne blinde I hope he means not that such a miracle was neuer wrought since the day of his birth but from the creation Mark 13.19 Math. 24.21 For so Saint Marke expoundeth Saint Mathew where he sayth there shall be great tribulation such as was not from the beginning of the world Againe when wee read elsewhere in Mathew Math. 13.39 that the haruest is the end of the world he doth not meane the day of euerie mans death but the day of Christs second comming 1. Cor. 15.24 for then shall bee the end saith Saint Paul And then the reapers that is the Angels shall gather the tares to the fire and the wheat to Christs barne so shall it bee Math. 13.30 Math. 13.40.49 saith our Sauiour in the end of the world Now then as this present world beganne when this heauen and this earth were created and shall continue till they bee melted with seruent heat so it is agreeable to reason and not disagreeable to Diuinity that the world to come should begin 2. Pet 3.7 Ibid. vers 13. when there shall bee a new heauen and a new earth as Saint Peter hath fore-prophecied But I will not hold your Papist to such hard-meat and therefore I answere secondly out of Marke who expoundeth Saint Mathew thus Mark 3.29 Non habet remissionem in aeternum Hath not remission for euer or Reus erit aterni delicti Guiltie of an euerlasting sinne or Aeternae damnationis Euerlasting damnation Here comes in Bellarmine sweating and tels vs that Mathew expounds Marke not Marke Mathew This is strange that a text should be expounded before it is written or the author extant but why must wee take Mathew to be the expositor of Marke Marry Quia Mathaeus copiosiùs scripsit pluribus verbis vtitur Because Mathew wrote more copiously and vseth more words So Glossa ordinaria and interlinearis or what other glosse or briefe draught soeuer may not be sayd to expound vnlesse it bee more copious than the text than which what can be more dotingly spoken but goe too saith he any thing else to that purpose Yes that hee doth for thus hee reasoneth Aut Christus dixit vt haket Mathaeus vel vt habet Marcus vel vtroque modo si primum veltertium habeo intentum si secundum tunc Mathaeus exposuit verba Christi Christ spake either as Marke hath it or as Mathew or both wayes if the first or the third way I haue my intent if the second then Mathew expounded the words of Christ How like you this reason Verily I neuer heard a worse for it is incredible that Christ spake word for word either as Mathew or Marke haue set downe and it is impossible hee should speake vtroque modo both wayes together vnlesse it were by way of exposition thus Non remittitur idest non habet remissionem in aeternum neque in hoc saeculo neque in futuro id est reus erit aeternae damnationis He shal not be forgiuen that is to say hath not forgiuenes for euer neither in this world nor in the world to come that is shal be guilty of euerlasting damnatiō But let vs grant him his partition though euerie part of it be false yet may you soone see he hath said nothing for if the first bee true then Marke hath expounded it if the last it is so likewise if the second then wee haue our desire for then the words in Mathew haue no more in them than Marke hath set downe 1. Cor. 11.23 otherwise Mathew deliuered more than hee receiued of the Lord. Wherefore that he may be taken himselfe in the snares of his owne reason I will send it him home as a Proselite or conuert to dispute against his old Maister and to say to him Aut Christus dixit vt habet Marcus vel vt habet Mathaeus vel vtroque modo si primum vel tertium habeo intentum si secundum tunc Marcus exposuit verba Christi Christ spake either as Marke hath it or as Mathew or both wayes if the first or the third then I haue my entent if the second then Marke expounded the words of Christ A third answere we fetch out of the vsuall knowne manner of the Hebrew tongue which expoundeth one contrarie by negation of the other and contrarywise Psal 69.26 Act 1.20 Psa 69 29. Psal 109 13. Prou. 19.5.9 Esay 34 10. Mark 3 29. the negatiue of the one by affirming the other as for example Let their habitation be voide id est Let no man dwell in their Tents Let them be wiped out id est Let them not be written Let his wickednesse be remembred idest Let it not bee done away Againe he shall not escape or be vnpunished idest he shall perish It shall not be quenched day nor night id est It shall smoke for euermore And to giue one example for all Marke the Euangelist expoundeth himselfe after this manner for when he had said shall neuer haue forgiuenesse hee addeth for explication but is vnder eternall damnation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So then being armed with so many examples in this behalfe and hauing Saint Marke to be our Captaine and as it were fore-man in our quest we say that not to bee forgiuen neither in this world nor the world to come is no more but to be punished and perish both here and there to be vnder eternall damnation to bee out of all hope of future deliuerance But what should wee labour to answere that that needes no answere for we confesse there is a doing away of sinnes in the world to come and yet you are neuer the neerer your Purgatorie
world of any thing whether it be prayer sacrifice Almes or whatsoeuer else that is done vnder the sunne which cleerely confoundeth Iohn a Stile and all other Iackes that plead for him Lastly the doctors may aduise and giue counsell and plead at the barre but if they presume to sit vpon the bench as iudges 1. Pet. 5.3 2. cor 24. and Lords ouer Gods heritage or hauing dominion ouer their faith then are they traitors against the Conquerour The Dialogue Sectio XV. Transubstantiation NOw followeth Transubstantiation wherein because I haue a You take much vpon you but you performe little taken vpon me to alleage no proofe which may by any glosse or interpretatiō be wrested into another sense there is greater difficultie for what can be deuised to be spoken thereof so perspicuously which by some such shift may not be auoided if the fathers say that the body of Christ after words of consecration is really present that is a figuratiue spéech if they make mention of the vnbloody sacrifice or of the sacrifice of the Altar that is b who makes such an interpretation interpreted the sacrifice of thankesgiuing they could not vse the word Transubstantiation because it was not c The fathers had not the wit to deuise such a trimme word deuised before the Councell of Laterane let vs admit that d One will hardly serue for the vniuersall Church one of the ancient fathers were risen from the dead for to vnfold what his beliefe was and what the vniuersal Church did hold in his time concerning Transubstantiation what should we e Transubstantiation must stand by deuises or els it wil soone fall deuise to demaund of him or what might he deuise to say vnto vs for final determination therof if we should aske whether the very body of Christ be present in the sacrament in forme of bread and he should answere f No father answereth so yea this would not serue but if we should replie thus How can it bée the bodie of Christ Shall I not beléeue mine owne eies which tell me that it is bread if this doctor should g Theodoret Chrysostome Austine Tertul and Ambrose himselfe answere so answere that the bread is called the bodie of Christ in a figuratiue sense that in Sacraments the signe is many times called by the name of the thing signified were not this controuersie cléerely determined on the protestants side Contrariwise If this doctor should answere that God is omnipotent and therefore able to doe what hée will seeme it neuer so contrary to our senses and vnderstanding that he was able to make heauen and earth of nothing and to doe all the great wonders and miracles of the land of Egypt were h No verilie were it not see the answere not the matter as cléerely determined on the Papists side what cauill could you in this case imagine or deuise eftsoones to cal in question what this doctors opinion should be concerning i Transubstantiation wil not come without a better pull transubstantiation will you imagine that he hath spokē al this of Gods omnipotency to proue that he is able to make you k As though there were nothing held by vs but calling naming signifying and figuring cal the signe of the Sacrament by the name of the thing signified or to make bread to be a figure of Christs naturall bodie Pro. When such a doctor shal arise from the dead and so determine of the matter as you haue imagined I will make you answere in the meane time you must giue me leaue with reuerence to thinke that none of the auncient fathers weare so grosse and absurd as to be of your opinion in this point but to admit that such a castle were built in the aire as you haue imagined I must then l Then do you confesse more thē other Protestants will confesse that such a supposed doctor did hold Transubstantiation Pap. This very question was thus asked vrged answered and determined for the Papists by Saint Ambrose when he was liuing and m Non sequitur therefore you must néeds graunt that he did hold Transubstantiation read his booke De ijs quae initiantur mysterijs the Chapter beginneth thus Quomodo tu dicis mihi hoc est corpus Christi aliud video panem video c. How sayest thou that this is the bodie of Christ I doe sée it to be another thing I doe sée that it is bread for answere hereof Saint Ambrose doth alleage that God was able to make heauen and earth of nothing and for the proofe of Gods omnipotent power he repeateth all the wonders and miracles of the land of Egypt as in that Chapter at large appeareth this was n But no doubt it was not but if it were his faith then was it not his opinion no doubt Saint Ambrose his faith in this point and the beliefe and practise of the vniuersall Church in his time for it is not like that so great a doctor did dissent frō the Catholike Church in so materiall a point neither is it o No for they were both Protestants probable that S. Ambrose was a Papist in this opinion S. Austine whom he conuerted to the Christian faith a Protestant The Answere IF your Papist were acquainted with such another as the witch of Endor 1. Sam. 28.7 it seemes he would cause one ancient father or other to be raised vp from the dead to auouch Transubstantiatiō his companions depend vpon the apparitions of soules the speeches of dead corpes dead skuls such like strong illusions as the heathen did vpon their oracles otherwise it would not be so open cleare a matter that Poperie is a doctrine of deuils he hath taken vpon him to alleage such proofe as cannot be wrested by any glosse or interpretation into another sense and therefore being intangled with such a difficultie he thinkes himselfe hardly able to mainetaine his credite without helpe from the dead yet me thinkes a wise man should not measure other mens wits by his owne nor imagine all glosses and interpretations to be in his owne head neuerthelesse I see heere that hee can make glosses of words that were neuer either spoken or written if the fathers say that the bodie of Christ is really present that is a figuratiue speech a figuratiue speech quoth he that must needs be a strange figuratiue speech that was neuer spoken and they be strange fathers that driue vs to shift them of by figures when they say nothing Againe if the fathers mention the vnbloody sacrifice or the sacrifice of the Altar that is interpreted the sacrifice of thankesgiuing heere is a glosse more then needs for if the fathers should so say they hurt not our cause and therefore no reason we should seeke for glosses or interpretations to shift them of Euseb de demonstr euang lib. 1. cap. 10 Sacrificium Altaris Sacrifice of the Altar doth
verbo non script lib. 4 Cap. 8. concludes out of Paul that all thinges are not to be opened to all but some things must be d 1. Cor. 2.6 reserued perfectis sapientibus yet I doubt whether any such perfect wise men are to bee found in the world O you perfect wise men of Rome or of Rhemes or where else soeuer you nestle your selues in the world can your perfect wisedomes doe so much for vs as to set downe these Traditions in blacke and white in a perfect Catalogue that if any controuersie arise about this or that tradition your blacke and white Booke may resolue vs No no you cannot doe it and therefore you tell vs you may not doe it in the hearing of such simple fellowes as we be because Paul hath commaunded the contrarie Sapientiam loquimur inter perfectos is your warrant to hide these mysteries from such poore fooles as we be But wote you what this verie allegation shall be our warrant to pronounce that you are perfect wise heretickes such as Basilides Carpocrates Cerinthus Valentinus and Marcion looke in e Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. 24. lib. 3. cap. 2. Irenaeus and f Tertul. de prescript aduers haeret Tertullian and there you shall finde that I doe not be-lye you g Math. 10 27. our Sauiour willeth his Disciples to speake in the open light and to preach on the tops of the houses and himselfe confirmed this plaine and open dealing by his own practise h Ioh. 18.20 I spake openly to the world saith he I euer taught in the Synagogue and in the temple where the Iewes alwaies resort and in secret haue I sayd nothing These places be inanswerable and therefore some that be lesse wayward in this point than their fellowes as for example i Aduers Brent Petrus à Soto k In Catech cap. 5. Canisius l In Pan. lib. 4. cap. 100. in fine fabulae 6. Lindanus m Parte 3. Peresius and others reckon vp a iolly companie of traditions as namely the oblation of the sacrifice their annealing their praying to the dead and for the dead their primacie of Rome their hallowing of Fonts their fiue pretended Sacraments the Merits of Works their satisfactions their tallying vp of their sinnes to the Priest their worshipping of Images their set-fasting dayes their holy time of Lent their oblations for the dead their Peters being at Rome their real presence their halfe Cōmunion their reseruation and adoration their priuate masse their shrifts their satisfactiōs their indulgēces their purgatory their single life of Priests and such like of which they say like down-right Squiers that they are not grounded vpon the holy scripture and that by scripture they cannot bee defended and so saith this our Papist of most of them euen in n Sect. 5. this Dialogue and therfore howsoeuer they trouble vs with some few light-footed allegations of Scripture yet their owne consciences tell them that the Scriptures will faile them in all these seuerall questions Wouldest thou know then what remayneth to bee done Mary I will tell thee let all their rich Gluttons in hell or out of hell dead or aliue nay let the Diuell himselfe say and doe what they will or can yet we will and so doe thou follow the counsell of Abraham we will and so doe thou heare Moses and the Prophets as he teacheth vs and not such as will vs to repose our trust in vnwritten and vnsealed Traditions And here to passe ouer to the other point I promised to speake of let it please thee to remember who was the first founder of Traditions namely Papias a Chiliast whom o Hist eccles lib. 2. 15. lib. 3. 36. Eusebius calleth a publisher of Paradoxes and strange and fabulous doctrines an inconsiderate mistaker of the disputations of the Apostles and a man of small iudgement yet this is the man that layd the first stone of Peters being at Rome and so consequently of the Papall Primacie and where Peter a 1. Pet. 5.13 saith the Church that is at Babylon saluteth you this is the first that euer told vs that he means Rome a worthy foundation no doubt to build religion vpon and yet when he saith that Rome is Babylon he puts vs all in minde to b Apo. 18.2.4 come out of Rome the habitation of Diuels and the hold of all foule spirits and a cage of euerie vncleane and hatefull bird And here it is a world to see how the Papists labour to auoyd the force of this and such like Prophecies This say they must bee meant of the heathenish not of the Christian Babylon And I say againe it neither must nor can be so meant for who will yeeld that Saint Iohn should set downe that by way of Prophecie which was prophecied alreadie by c Cap. 7. Daniel long before either Saint Iohn was banished or Christ was incarnate Againe if happily Daniel be otherwise vnderstood why should the holy ghost speake of the Citie of Rome rather than Corinth Philippos Colosse Thessalonica great Cities of Greece or of Smyrna Pergamus Thyatira Sardis Philadelphia Laodicea to which d Cap. 1.4 the Reuelation is dedicated or the Citie of Ephesus where it is thought Saint Iohn was Bishop were not all these Cities as heathenish as Rome and better knowne to Saint Iohn so to be than Rome was What was Saint Iohn made a Prophet to speake against heathenish Rome which he neuer saw nor came neere to and no prophet at all to speake of the heathenishnes of so many Cities that hee had seen so often and was so well acquainted withall Moreouer if this might be yeelded vnto yet why should heathenish Rome be figured in the person of a gawdie scarlet coloured whorish woman and be counted the mother of all the filthinesse whoredomes and abhominations of the earth whereas indeed there was neuer a more manly and more continent gouernement in the world In the e Cap. 7. prophecie of Daniel the chiefe Kingdomes and Empires of the earth are described vnto vs by the names of Lions Beares and Leopards and stronge terrible and fearfull beasts with yron teeth nayles of brasse and shall we thinke that the most continent most iust most strong most terrible and couragious gouernment that euer was in the world should be compared by the holy ghost to a fine daintie Dame to a tender nice whore to a proud shamelesse whore that made open shew of the filthinesse of her Fornication No no this verie Booke of Saint Iohns Reuelation f Apoc 13 2. doth compare the Romane Emperor to a Leopard with Beares feet and a Lions mouth and the Papists themselues doe so vnderstand it And here obserue that beside the first beast which was like a Leopard there is another there spoken of which hauing two hornes like a lambe spake like a Dragon and did all the first beast could doe and more too
off the forepart of Ambroses testimony which speakes of substance and merite and euill doctrine and alledgeth onely these last words Cum Paulus dicit sic tamen quasi per ignem ostendit quidem illum saluum futurum sed poenas ignis passurum vt per ignem purgatus fiat saluus non sicut perfidi aeterno igne in perpetuum torqueatur When Paul saith yet so as it were by fire he sheweth indeed that he shal be saued but shall suffer the paynes of fire that being purged by fire he may be saued and not tormented perpetually in euerlasting fire as the obstinate c. Wherefore I like your popish fellowes simplicitie a great deale better who cites Ambrose by whole sale substance accident merite euill doctrine and all for though in so doing he haue lesse wit then Bellarmine yet I will beare him witnesse he hath more honesty but to wind vp all in a word if you be desirous to know Ambroses meaning I thinke you may easily picke it out of these words of S. Austine De ciuit Dei lib. 21. cap. 13. Nos etiam in hac quidē mortali vita esse quasdam paenas purgatorias confitemur Wee also confesse that there are in this mortall life certaine purgatory paynes The Dialogue Sectio XIII GRegorius Magnus The a The trueth giueth you no such thing to vnderstand looke the answere truth hath sayd if any man shall blaspheme the holy Ghost he shall not be forgiuen in this world nor in the world to come whereby he giueth vs to vnderstand that some sinnes shall be forgiuen in this world and some in the world to come for proofe whereof he vseth also the place b Hee saith it may be vnderstood de igne tribulationis in hac vita of Saint Paul before cited by Saint Austine and Saint Ambrose to the same effect Dialog lib. 4. cap. 39. The Answere POpe Gregorie is heere brought in with his great title to fray vs and yet God wote hee pleads but simply for Purgatorie for touching the place of Saint Paul thus hee writes Quamuis hoc de igne tribulationis in hac vita nobis adhibitae possit intelligi tamen si quis hoc de igne futurae purgationis accipiat c. Although this may be vnderstood of the fire of tribulation which wee feele in this life yet if any take it of the purgation of fire to come c. As if hee should say though I be of opinion that Paul speakes of the fire of affliction whereby God examineth his children in this life yet if any take it otherwise I will not stand against it this is but a silly proofe and touching the other place of Saint Matthew out of which hee concludeth that some sins are forgiuen in this world and some in the world to come Cap. 12.32 his conclusion is cleane contrarie to all Logicke for no reason will lead vs to reason thus this one sinne is not forgiuen Ergo some sins are forgiuē in the world to come this is a plain Non sequitur and so saith Bellarmine De purg lib. 1 cap. 4. Non sequitur secundum regulas dialecticorum It followeth not according to the rules of Logicke but will you know now how it followeth then hearken what the Iesuite saith further Sequitur secundum regulam prudentiae It followeth according to the rule of wisedome So you see howe it followeth and how it followeth not it followeth by the rule of wit it followeth not by the rules of Logicke belike Wit is a Papist and Logicke a Protestant but consider I beseech you how farre this Popish wit would goe if it might hee suffered Dominus ineptissimè loquitur saith Bellarmine si in futuro saeculo nullum peccatum remittitur The Lord speaketh most foolishly if no sinne be forgiuen in the world to come See how this sawcie Iesuite thinks it not inough to say Dominus non loquitur secundum regulam prudentiae c. The Lord speakes not according to the rule of wit which hath some little shew of modestie but Dominus ineptissimè loquitur c. The Lord speakes most foolishly if his Iesuiticall conceit of remitting sinnes in another world be not admitted this is the desperatenesse of Popish Diuinitie but tell mee I beseech you is not the speech still alike foolish if no great sinnes be remitted in the world to come yes verily for thus must it be conceiued the great sinne against the holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen neither there where great sinnes are forgiuen that is in this world nor there where no great sinnes are forgiuen that is in the world to come Is not this speech thinke you as farre from Bellarmines regula prudentiae rule of wit as the other yet is it propounded according to the Popish conceit for as wee thinke no sinne so they think no great sin is remitted in seculo futuro in the world to come Gregory in this very Dialogue saith Dial. lib. 4. ca. 39. Serm. 41. that peccata maiora greater sinnes be tunciam insolubilia be impardonable and counterfeit Austine saith as much in his sermons De Sanctis Now then whereas the Pope thinkes that our Sauiour in Mathew giueth vs to vnderstand that some sinnes shall be forgiuen in the world to come let him tell vs what sinnes those be great or small great sinnes be tunc iam irremissibile as he saith himselfe and if he meane small sinnes then is our Sauiours speech as farre out of square as if a man should say This great heape of corne cannot bee contained neither in this bushell nor in a fleeting dish But why should the speech of Christ bee most foolish if no sinne at all be remitted in the world to come might not our Sauiour speake so by exaggeration that the speech might the better pierce the vncircumcised hearts and eares of the Pharises No saith the Iesuite Exaggeratio non debet esse inepta qualis est cum fit partitio vni membro nihil respondet An exaggeration ought not to bee foolish as for example when a partition is made and nothing agreeth to one of the parts Is this the folly hee talkes of why it is easie to see that not to remit the sin against the holy Ghost is answerable alike both to this world and the world to come which bee the members of our Sauiours partition for that great sin is neuer remitted neither in the one nor the other 1. Cor. 13.1 Galat. 1.8 Apoc. 5.3 yet notwithstanding we haue examples of such foolish partitions in the word of God Paul saith Though I speake with the tongues of men and Angels whereas Angels haue no tongues to speake And in another place though we or an Angell from heauen speake otherwise c. Yet Angels be no Preachers so likewise the spirite of God saith No man is able to open read or looke vpon the Booke neither in heauen nor in earth nor vnder the earth yet
1. ibid. saith Theodoret. I lle Symbola signa quae videntur appellatione corporis sanguinis honorauit Hee that called himselfe the vine did honor the signes which are seene with the name of his bodie and blood And againe Seruator noster commutauit nomina corpori quidem symboli nomen de dit symbolo verò nomen corporis Our Sauiour changed the names and gaue to the bodie the name of the symbole and to the symbole the name of the bodie Chrysostome Ad Caesar Monach ad Bonis Epist 23. Contr. Adim cap. 12. Panis sanctificatus dignus est dominici corporis appellatione The sanctified bread is dignified with the name of Christs bodie Austine Sacramenta plerunque rerum ipsarum nomina accipiunt Sacraments doe often take the names of the things themselues And againe Non dubitauit Dominus dicere Contr. Marcion lib. 4. In 1. Cor. 11. De his qui init myst cap. vlt. hoc est corpus meum cum daret signum corporis sui The Lord did not sticke to say this is my bodie when hee gaue the signe of his bodie And againe facinus vel flagitium videtur inbere figura ergo est praecipiens passioni domini esse communicādū suauiter atque vtiliter recondendū in memoria quod pro nobis caro eius crucifixa vulnerata sit He seemeth to cōmand a heinous or horrible wickednes therfore it is a figure instructing vs to communicate of the passion of the Lord and pleasantly and profitably to keepe in memorie that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs. Tertullian Hoc est corpus meum hoc est figura corporis mei This is my bodie that is to say this is a figure of my bodie Ambrose Quia morte domini liberati sumus huiusrei memores in edendo potando carnem sanguinem quae pro nobis oblata sunt significamus Because wee are deliuered by the death of the Lord being mindefull thereof in eating and drinking we doe signifie his flesh and his blood which were offered for vs. And againe Post consecrationem corpus Christi significatur After consecration the bodie of Christ is signified Such places as these be so common in the writings of the ancient Fathers that it is vtterly needlesse to rehearse any more of them Thus is your Papist preuented for our cause you see is cleerely determined Yet notwithstanding it is pittie the poore mans tale should not be heard if this Doctor sayth he should answere that God is omnipotent and able to doe what he will that he was able to make heauen and earth to doe great wonders and miracles in Aegipt were not the matter cleerely determined on the Papists side No verily were it not neither would any man euer thinke so if he knew the vertue and power of a Sacrament Pope Leo speaking of the water in baptisme though it be not transubstantiate saith thus Christus dedit aquae quod dedit matri De Natiuit serm 4. virtus enim altissimi obumbratio spiritus sancti quae fecit vt Maria pareret saluatorem eadē fecit vtregeneraret vnda credentem Christ gaue that to the water which he gaue to his mother for the power of the most high and the ouershadowing of the holy spirite which caused Marie to bring foorth the Sauiour made the water to regenerate a beleeuer So Austine Cont liter pet tan lib. 3. cap. 49. Nec iam baptizare cessauit Dominus sed adhuc id agit non ministerio corporis sed inuisibili opere maiestatis Neither hath the Lord now ceased to baptize but he doth it still not by the ministerie of his bodie but by the inuisible worke of his maiestie So Chrysostome Angeli qui adfuerunt in baptismo iam inenarrabilis operis modum non possunt enarrare adfuerunt tantum viderunt In Ioh. ho. 24. nihil tamen operati sunt sed pater tantum filius spiritus sanctus The Angels which were present in baptisme were not able to declare the manner of that vnspeakable worke onely they were present and beheld but wrought nothing but the father onely and the Sonne and holy spirite This verie power of the most high and ouershadowing of the holy Ghost this verie worke of the Maiestie of God is it and onely it that maketh these outward elements Rom. 4.11 Eph. 4 15 16. Ephe. 5 30. seales of the righteousnesse of faith and effectuall signes and meanes of our regeneration and growing vp into him which is the head euen Christ so as we be made flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones Immortalitatis alimonia datur à communibus cibis differens Cypr. de caena domini corporalis substantiae retinens speciem sed virtutis diuinae inuisibili efficientia probans adesse praesentiam A food of immortality is giuen differing from common meats retaining the forme of a bodily substance but proouing that a diuine power is present by the inuisible efficacie of it You see now I trow that Gods omnipotencie hath somewhat else to doe than to transubstantiate bread and wine and to vphold emptie accidents that haue no subiect And touching the words of Saint Ambrose which bee counted so pregnant for transubstantiation as we are here willed to read them in his Booke De ijs qui initiantur mysterijs So you may read them obiected by Steph. Gardiner and Chedsey and so answered by Peter Martyr that few Papists or none at al frō that day to this euer durst propound them Ambrose doth not say that the substance of bread and wine is abolished for he flatly auoucheth the contrarie when he saith sunt quae erant they are the same they were but that the nature of them is changed that whereas before they were common creatures and prophane by nature now by consecration they be holy signes such as doe not onely represent but exhibite the bodie and blood of Christ to the faithfull receiuer and bee effectuall and powerfull instruments whereby life and immortalitie is conuayed into vs and this exposition doth Ambrose himselfe confirme where he saith toward the end of the Chapter that this is a Sacrament of the true flesh of Christ and that after consecration the bodie of Christ is signified Nowe to make light of so wonderfull a change which passeth the capacitie of Angels as Chrysostome saith and to make it inferiour to the wonders of Aegypt whereof most were done by sorcerers as well as by Moses argueth an vnderstanding darkened with deepe ignorance and too much addicted to Popish deuises I could adde that this place of Ambrose is obiected also by Harding and answered by Bishop Iuell Art 10 diuis 3. and that this Booke is thought by many wise and learned men to bee falsely fathered vpon Ambrose but this that I haue sayd alreadie is sufficient to beat downe the fond bragges of our Papist and to shew him cleerely that Ambrose is wrested
lord thy God and him onely shalt thou serue when Paul saith how shall they call on him in whom they haue not beleeued hee sheweth vs to whom this seruice belongeth namely to him in whom wee beleeue De ciuit Dei lib. 22. cap. 10 which cannot agree to any creature in heauen or earth and therefore well saith Austine whose authoritie is here pretended Vni Deo Martyrum nostro sacrificium immolamus ad quod sacrificium sicut homines Dei qui mundum in eius confessione vicerunt suo loco ordine nominantur non tamen à sacerdote qui sacrificat inuocantur Wee doe offer sacrifice to one and the same God both of the Martyrs and ours at which sacrifice though the men which haue ouercome the world in the confession of his name are in their place and order named yet are they not inuocated by the Priest that sacrificeth This is a plaine testimonie against the inuocation of dead Martyrs and therefore we must not accept of these places which our Papist here offereth vs according to the first view but looke better into them and so expound them as they may agree together with that other place which I haue quoted and here I offer you three seuerall expositions agreeable I thinke to Austines words heere alleaged by our Papist the first is that the commending of vs to the Martyrs prayers here spoken of is not by praier made vnto them when they are dead but by request made vnto them before their Martyrdome when they are aliue as the theefe in the Gospell prayed our Sauiour vpon the crosse before his death Lord remember me when thou comest into thy Kingdome Luk. 23 42. Libr. 1. Epist 1 in fine Cyprian writes so to Cornelius Si quis hinc nostrum prior diuinae dignationis celeritate precesserit perseueret apud Deum nostra dilectio pro fratribus sororibus nostris apud misericordiam patris non cesset oratio If any of vs through the goodnesse of God goe hence first before other let our loue still continue when we are with God that we cease not to pray before the Fathers mercie for our brethren and sisters Secondly when Austine saith that the Martyrs are therefore remembred at the Altar that they may so be mooued to pray for vs he taketh the thankefull commemoration of their names at the Lords table without any further praying vnto thē Contr. Faustum lib. 20 Cap. 21. to be a sufficient spurre to exercise them to yeeld vs such helpe as they can afford vs therfore he teacheth vs elsewhere that Christians celebrated the memories of Martyrs for these two intents Vt meritis eorum consocientur atque orationibus adinuentur That they may be associate to the merits De tempore serm 244. and holpen with their prayers And in another place that Martyrs do make intercession for vs quando in nohis aliquid de suis virtutibus recognoscunt when they find any of their vertues to lie in vs. Thirdly and lastly the one of these two places alleaged for this superstitious kinde of praying may serue for an exposition of the other for when the one saith Iniuria est pro Martyre orare cuius nos debemus orationibus commendari It is iniurie to pray for a Martyr to whose prayers we ought rather to be commended The other telleth you that the word magis rather is wanting whereby wee are informed that we ought rather to pray to Martyrs than for Martyrs and yet neither the one simply lawfull nor the other Now touching the last authoritie out of the counterfeit Sermons De sanctis it is shamefully derogatorie to the mediation of Christ Iesus so as a Christian heart can hardly brooke it we thinke it a foule speech that Cardinall Bembus vsed in an Epistle he wrote to Clarles the fifth Bembus wherein he calleth the blessed Virgine Dominam Deam nostram Our Ladie and Goddesse But here in these Sermons she is called forma Dei the forme of God so likewise Ambrose Catherine in the Councell of Trent calleth her Sess 2. fidelissimam Dei sociam the most faithfull mate of God and these Sermons say little lesse where we read Te rex regum vt sponsam sibi associat Thee the King of Kinges doth associate to himselfe as his spouse To be short this wretched author calleth her Sponsam Dei reginam coelorum Dominam angelorum mundi redemptricem reportatricem gratiae reconciliationis The Spouse of God the Queene of heauen the Ladie of Angels the Redeemer of the world the bringer of the grace of reconciliation and teacheth vs to inuocate her after this manner Tu es spes vnica peccatorum per te speramus veniam delictorum in te nostrorum est expectatio praemiorum Thou art the onely hope of sinners by thee we hope for pardon of our sinnes in thee we looke for our rewards And then followeth immediately Sancta Maria succurre miseris c. Holy Marie helpe vs wretches as our Papist here hath alleaged if this Diuinitie may bee tolerated then let our gathered stickes Ierem. 7.18 and the Fathers kindle the fire and our women knead dough to bake cakes for the Queene of heauen and let the Collyridians bee heretickes no longer Christus dixit saith Epiphanius quid mihi tibi est mulier non dum venit hora mea Heres 59. Ioh. 2.4 quo non putarent aliqui magis eximiam esse sanctam Virginē mulierem eam appellauit veluti prophetans quae essent futura in terra sectarum haereserie genera vt ne aliqui nimium admirati sanctam in hanc haeresim eiusque deliramenta dilabantur Christ said what haue I to doe with this woman mine houre is not yet come that some might not think the holy Virgine to be more excellent than she was he calleth her woman prophesying as it were what kindes of sects and heresies there should bee in the world least some admiring too much her holy person should fall into this doting heresie And Ambrose In Rom. Cap. 1 Isti se non putant reos qui honorem nominis Dei deferunt creaturae relicto domino creaturas adorant nam ideo ad reges per Tribunos Comites itur quia homo vtique est rex nescit quibus debeat rempub credere ad Deum autem quem nihil latet omnium enim merita nouit promerendum suffragatore non est opus sed mente deuota vbicunque enim talis loquutus fuerit ei respondebit illi These men thinke not themselues guiltie which giue the honour of the name of God to a creature and leauing the Lord adore creatures for therefore indeed wee goe to Kings by Tribuues and Earles because the King is a man and knoweth not to whome to commit the publique affaires but to God from whome nothing is hidden for hee knoweth all mens need we haue no need of any to speak for
be short the same Father when he saith In fide liberum suae potestatis arbitrium hommi seruauit Dominus God hath reserued to man in faith a will free and in his owne power What doth he else but place faith in the free will and power of man than which nothing can be more contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel Hilar. in psal 118. neither is the testimonie of Hilarie and Epiphanius of much better regard for when the one saith Est à nobis cum oramus exordium The beginning is from our selues when we pray IdeÌ„ in psal 2. Againe Vnicuique nostrum libertatem vitae sensumque permisit He hath graunted to euerie of vs libertie of life and sence And againe Voluntas nostra hoc proprium ex se habere debet vt velit Deus incipienti crementum dare This our will ought to haue proper of it selfe that when it beginneth God would giue increase And the other Epiph. heres 16. Possumus peccare non peccare It is in our power to sinne and not to sinne And againe Circa hominem est bona operari aut malas res appetere It it in mans power to doe good or to desire euill things I see no inckling of any grace but onely of the naturall force and power of mans will I will not charge these auncient fathers with all that may be gathered out of their writings but this I may say vnder benedicite that such sayings as these were the first grounds and foundations of the Pelagian heresie August contra Iulianum Pelag lib. 1. ca. 2. Pelagianis nondùm litigantibus securius loquebantur saith Austine the Fathres spake with lesse circumspection before they were combred with Pelagianisme The Dialogue Sectio XXI The doctrine of the keyes AS touching this point of doctrine the church of Rome doth teach none a But by your leaue you are deceiued other thing then that which our Sauiour Christ doth in the 16. of S Matthews Gospell in plaine and expresse wordes where hee saith vnto S. Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shal be loosed in heauen and in the 20. of S. Iohns Gospell where he saith to all his disciples Whosoeuers sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whosoeuers sinnes ye retayne they are retayned so that you see the literall sense is for vs and the question betweene vs is of the right interpretation and true meaning of the wordes you b VVe doe so for the keyes of discipline are giuen Matth. 18.18 do interpret the binding and loosing here mentioned to be the preaching of the word of God whereby sinnes are forgiuen and loosed to the penitent hearers and retained vnto the impenitent and vnbeleeuers and we doe say that by these wordes our Sauiour did giue authoritie and commission vnto his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be wherein wee doe attribute no more vnto the commissioners in the forgiuing of sinnes than wee doe vnto a seruant that giueth possession of his masters land by vertue of a letter of atturney who although he haue himselfe no interest in the land at all yet hath he full power to conuey his masters interest therein to c He knowes to whom so doth not your popish priest whosoeuer his pleasure is to haue the same conueyed it pleased God to make water an instrument in the forgiuing of sinnes in the Sacrament of Baptisme and in the d VVe know no such sacrament this must goe among other your forgeries sacrament of penance to make man an instrument vnto whom wee doe attribute no more as touching the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the one sacrament then you doe vnto water in the other man who cannot see the heart giueth remission to all that pretend to be penitent and contrite but God who seeth the heart e And would giue it though your new-found sacrament had neuer bin forged giueth remission by the ministery of man to those onely that are truely penitent and contrite And thus much for the true vnderstanding of the question betwéene vs. Now forasmuch as the literall sense being wholy for vs the controuersie doth consist onely in the right interpretation let vs compare together your interpretation and ours that we may the better discerne whether of them is most like to be true f VVe build our faith vpoÌ„ no mans opinion old or yong doe you as best beseemes your pâ—ofession you doe build your faith herein vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or perhaps vpon the conceit of your owne braine and wee vpon the authoritie of the g Here is a goodly vaunt if the matter could be so caried away with bigge wordes this fellow would doe well inough ancient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remayning euen to this day To conclude for the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation thus I doe argue against it If Christ did giue this authoritie of binding and loosing vnto his disciples onely and to their successors as I thinke you will not deny it then cannot the preaching of the word bee that binding and loosing giuen onely to the disciples and their successors because h As though a learned lay man had authoritie to preach the word a learned lay man who is none of the disciples successors may bind and loose in that sense that you doe interpret and open and shut the kingdome of heauen as well as an i VVe allow no such ministers ignorant and vnlearned minister Other doctrine then this as touching the forgiuing or retayning of sinnes the church of Rome teacheth not sauing that whereas in the sacrament of Penance temporall penance is inioyned we doe hold that the k Who gaue that power to the Pope I am sure it is more then euer Peter had or practised or bequeathed to his successors this is not to be found either in S. Matthew or S. Iohn Pope hath power to release alter or mittigate the same eyther in the life of the partie or if the partie fortune to die before the performance of his penance to pardon the same after his death For your ful satisfaction herein I l And I you to the answere wil referre you to a learned discourse thereof written in the english tongue by our countrey man Cardinall Allen. The Answere THe Keyes now remaine to bee scoured from popish rust and to this purpose wee may consider that Saint Peters keyes are first taken in hand Math 16.19 Iohn 20.23 Bellar. de pontif and then those keyes that were committed by our Sauiour to the Apostles yet if you will beleeue Bellarmine the first place out of Matthew doth but promise that Saint Peter should be a keykeeper I will giue the