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A82555	The Quakers confuted, being an answer unto nineteen queries; propounded by them, and sent to the elders of the church of Duckenfield in Cheshire; wherein is held forth much of the doctrine and practise concerning revelations, and immediate voices, and against the holy Scriptures, Christs ministry, churches and ordinances &c. Together with an answer to a letter which was written and sent by one of them to a family of note and quality in the said county, which pleaded for perfection in this life, and for quaking. By Samuel Eaton, teacher of the Church of Christ heretofore meeting at Duckenfield, now in Stockport in Cheshire.	Eaton, Samuel, 1596?-1665.; Waller, Richard, d. 1657.	1654 (1654)	Wing E125; Thomason E719_8; ESTC R9865	69,620	98

Letter that was given me and the Answer which I sent unto it which was directed to his wife together with the Reply that the Quakers made unto it which indeed is too tedious to be read of any who have most time it is such a sottish and senseless piece of stuff and hath so much scurrilous language in it But by it and by the Queries the Saints and World may know what a people these are what little hope there is of any good to be wrought upon them if they would admit of any rational discourse from Scripture some encouragement would be given to spend time that way with them but they can easily evade all with such Answer as this Busie minds give senses to Scripture and are Persons that have nothing to do with Scripture can witness nothing of that they speak of They pretend to speak and act all by the Spirit and if any one will try the Spirit that they speak by their Reply is that such an one can neither witness Scripture nor Spirit and therefore hath nothing to do with such things Yet they deceive many and they increase in number continually but the time will come that they shall proceed no further In the mean time it ought to be sad to every godly spirit that Satan should have such power to work so effectually in and upon many who have been reputed Saints who are drawn into them but God will issue all to his Glory at the last and in this I rest and remain Thine in the Lord Jesus Samuel Eaton THE Quakers QUERIES For some Friends who call themselves Elders of the Church of Christ meeting at Stopport these c. A few Queries to you who profess your selves to be Teachers Pastors and Elders Querie 1. WHether you have the same eternal Spirit which gave forth the Scriptures yea or no Querie 2. Whether the Apostles did give a right meaking to the Scriptures when they gave them forth or left them to you to give a meaning to them yea or no Querie 3. Whether the Plagues be not added to them who add to the Prophesies written in the Book and whether his Name be not diminished out of the Book of Life that diminishes and whether you can witness this Name yea or no Querie 4. Whether you have an infallible Judgement to judge of things eternal yea or no Querie 5. Whether you be above the Apostle and are able to judge his Condition because you say he was not perfect who said he spoke wisdom among them that were perfect Querie 6. Whether you have the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the World was which the Apostle speaks of yea or no Querie 7. Whether you have heard the voice of the liveing God of Heaven and Earth or whether do you not take the Prophets words Christs words and the Apostles words and say he saith it when saith the Lord I never spoke to you Querie 8. Whether a man shall overcome the body of sin while he is upon the Earth yea or no Querie 9. Whether you preach no other Doctrine then that which the Apostles did that which was from the beginning which we have heard which we have seen with our eyes which we have looked upon and with our hands have handled of the word of life For this life is made manifest and we have seen it and bear witness and shew it unto you Querie 10. Whether you have this word which was from the beginning and this life manifested to you which was to the Apostles And if it be why do you take a Text from the Letter and Preach from it and shew the People the Letter Querie 11. And shew me where the Prophets did take a Text and preach from it but only Christ read a place and said it was fulfilled who said he was anointed to preach and which of you can witness you are anointed to preach by the living God yea or no Querie 12. Tell me why you sing Davids Conditions and Experiences in Meeter and when you read them hats you keep on and when you sing them hats you put off Querie 13. Whether you have the voice and whether you do know the voice of Christ from the voice of a Stranger My Sheep know my voice saith Christ seing that you are so forward to judge and sit as Judges of the Saints Conditions Querie 14. Whether that which is in you which Judgeth be eternal and infallible yea or no Querie 15. What is the Ordinance which is ordained of God that those which you call Quakers deny and where or when did God command you to observe them As to sprinkle Infants to pray before and after your Sermons as you call them or to set times dayes and hours which was in the Generation which were enemies to Christ who observed such things Querie 16. What these Ordinances of God be which you speak of And where God commanded them and to whom which you say those that you call Quakers do deny mention them in particular and declare them openly in Writing and give over accusing Querie 17. Whether you do not seduce the People to draw them from the anointing within them when as John saith they need no man teach them but as the anointing and the Promise was Eternal Life to him that did abide in the anointing Querie 18. Whether you do not bewitch the people to draw them from the Spirit of God within them to observe these things which God never commanded to tell people of a Sacrament and following your outward Teaching who stand praying in the Synagogues and are called of men-Masters which Christ did forbid Mat. 23. And have the chiefest places in the Assemblies Whether these be not Antichrists which act contrary to the Commands of Christ this yea or no Querie 19. Whether a man shall ever grow up that he need no man teach him under your Ministry yea or no seeing the Apostle saith you need no man teach you and you which have been long Teachers how many have you brought up into this Condition The Church of Christ is the Pillar and Ground of Truth which doth witness the eternal Spirit and if you be the same Church and have the same Spirit Answer me these Queries without any consequences or senses otherwise deny your Eldership and Pastorship and to be no Church of Christ From some Friends in the Truth in Lancashire whom the World calls Quakers An ANSWER to the forementioned Queries brought by one Richard Waller a Messenger of the Quakers and presented by him in the name of them unto the Elders of the Church common-called the Church of Duckenfield now meeting at Stockport in the face and presence of the whole Congregation and an Answer required fromthe above said Elders upon the 5th of Iune 1653. Querie 1. WHether you have the Eternal Spirit which gave forth the Scriptures yea or no Answ We do believe and assert that all Concering the indwelling of the Spirit in the Saints that do

above the Apostle and able to judge his condition because you say he was not perfect It is a senceless foolish causeless Question because he judged nothing of the Apostles condition but perverted what the Apostle judged of his own condition for it is his own words of himself which are spoken in the above mentioned place not our words of him Not saith he as though I had already apprehended or were already perfect We relate his words And do we exalt our selves in it above him and judge his condition As for his speaking of Wisedom among those who were perfect that proves not his perfection of which the Question runs nor indeed doth it prove any perfection at all which excludes all sin which is that which they drive at in making mention of it There is a comparative perfection which some attain unto which the Apostle intends in that place There are some that are in their way towards it and have made a good progress and are still passing thitherward these are perfect in comparison of the rude wild world and of such who are onely babes in Christ He that can bridle his tongue is a perfect man as James affirms not absolutely perfect for the heart may be unruly though the tongue be restrained but comparatively perfect because there are not many who can do it amongst such perfect ones Paul speaks wisdom but not amongst absolute Perfectists Querie 6. Whether you have the hidden wisdom which God Concerning Christ in Saints in what sense they have him and in what sense not ordained before the World was which the Apostle speaks of yea or no Answ This hidden Wisdom which God ordained before the world was which the Apostle speaks of in 1 Cor. 2. 7. is CHRIST for he is called the Wisdom of God 1 Cor. 1. 24. and he is hidden also for he was in the World and the World knew him not and he came unto his own and his own received him not Joh. 1. 11. 12. For though they said they knew him and whence he was yet Christ told them That they neither knew him nor his Father nor whence he was nor whither he went For though they knew him as he was man yet the Divinity which was vailed in his fl●sh they saw no● neither could see for flesh and blood revealed it not but the Father as Christ told his Disciples and it is clear from the above-mentioned place which he alludes to in this Question that Christ is the person that is called The hidden wisdom which God erdained For the Apostle saith vers 8. Had they known it they would never have crucified the Lord of glory Now if Christ be this hidden Wisdom then the Question runs of Christ whether we have him yea or no Our Answer to it is this What we are will appear in time but if we be Believers we have him for all Believers have him for he dwells in their hearts by faith Eph. 3. 17. For faith receives him Joh. 1. 12. And who ever hath one of the three hath all the three dwelling in him If Saints have the holy Ghost as was granted in the first Question Then they have Christ also nay they could not have the Spirit if they had not Christ for Christ sends him yet it must be understood in a spiritual sense that they have Christ and not in a literal and carnal They have Christ standing in relation to them and they to him as the members have the head because they are united to it and it to them and as branches have the Vine and the Vine the branches because united to one another And they have Christs influence upon them and Christ in those influences And they have the vertue and power of his Spirit put forth in them in such measure as pleaseth him but always in part and not in perfection 1 Cor. 13. 12. and therein they have him But they have not Christ in flesh or the flesh of Christ dwelling in them for that was taken up into Heaven and will be there contained till the restitution of all things But they intend this Question of an higher way of having Christ and they dream that they themselves have him in a higher way and that neither we nor any others but themselves have him in that way They imagine such an having of Christ as the flesh of Christ had God or as the humanity of Christ had the Godhead The flesh of Christ had God in such sort that it was wholy comprehended of God and taken up into oneness of Person with him so as that the infinite power and wisdom and holiness of God was put forth many times in flesh and always when the flesh that is when the humanity acted any thing it was in perfection of compliance with God which was in it and comprehended it Such an having of Christ as this they conceit in reference to themselves that as the Godhead had the flesh so they have the Godhead which supplies with all Wisdom Knowledge Graces of all kindes strength holiness and with every thing so that they neede nothing that is external neither Scripture nor Ordinances or Teachers but Christ whom they have within them is sufficent for all things and unto all purposes and makes them perfect as Christ is as God is Now such an having of Christ as this is we assume not nor dare assume And we declare against it as a Satanical delusion to which God hath left these poor Creatures who have forsaken him They would be as God as Christ the Devil tempts them to it as at first he did our first Parents tells them that they are so and so they cast off his Institutions Ordinances Servants which he sends in his name and him in them Querie 7. Whether you have heard the voice of the liveing Concerning immediate voyces whether there be any such immediate voyces now as of old time to the Prophets and Apostles Or concerning immediate inspiration God of Heaven and Earth or whether you do not take the Prophets words Christs words and the Apostles words and say he saith it when saith the Lord I never spoke to you Answ This Question consists of two parts The former part demands of us Whether we be persons immediately inspired in what we deliver For the voyce which they en quire after is some voyce that immediately comes from God such as came to the Patriarks to Moses to Samuel to all the Prophets to Christ and to all the Apostles The Jews would confess that God spake with Moses and we Christians will acknowledge that God spake both with Moses and with Christ for all Scripture was given by Inspiration of God and holy men of old spake as they were inspired by the holy Ghost And this we assert in reference to the New Testament as well as in reference to the old because God by signs and wonders and with divers Miracles hath given Witness thereunto Now our Answer is That such a voyce

for the Ministery Or if some of them were Apostles qualifications which were to go into all the world to preach the Gospel and did therefore stand in need of tongues yet they were not Pastors and Teachers qualifications which are fixed to certain places and people Such gifts as were then given were testimonials that Christ was received to the Glory of the Father and did sit at his right hand and that all power was given him to Heaven and Earth according as he spake when he was upon the Earth Secondly There might be as forcible an argument fetch against all Christianity if words be taken up in the Letter in which they run as against Ministery Mark 16 17. Those signs shall follow them that believe in my name they shall cast out Devils they shall speak with new tongues and many other things it is said they should do and they did so in the Primitive times very many of them and perhaps all had one extraordinary gift or another as 1 Cor. 12. 7. The man ifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withall to one in one kind and to another in another kind And therefore when Paul met with Disciples at Ephesus the first Question that he asked them was whetherthey had received the holy Ghost since they believed As if suchgifts of the holy Ghost had been so connexed to Faith that they could not be separated the one from the other shall we therefore reason from hence that because these signs are not now accompanying those that profels Faith that there are no Believers to be found in these latter Ages We may as rationally and with as much and more colour of Scripture reason after such manner as these persons do against Ministery Besides the Apostle speaks of Ministery which some persons have received Rom. 12. 7. and requires a waiting upon it and he that teacheth must wait upon his teaching and he that exhorteth must wait upon his exhortation Here is not only an outward teaching allowed which the persons who shaped these questions oppose but an outward teaching by office is enjoyned which some others that are no Quakers are ready enough to withstand For if it should be meerly by a gift which some will grant though they deny Office How comes it that the Injunction is to wait upon it For though it be not expresly in the Original yet it is necessarily implyed that there may be sense made of it and how comes an injunction of maintenance Gal. 6. 6. from him that is taught to him that teacheth if teaching be not by Office be not waited upon and made the special work of some persons And how comes the Apostle to raise a living to some persons from their preaching when he saith that they who preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel and saith also that so the Lord hath ordained it 1 Cor. 9. 14. and if persons make it not their office and wait upon it as upon their office if only they preach by vertue of a gift that they have or think that they have and exercise it at their pleasure will the Apostle have such men live upon the Gospel that so preach it Or why doth the Apostle fetch an argument from them that served at the Altar whohad their livelihood thence to prove a living upon the Gospel Preached if such who were to Preach the Gospel were not Ministerially and by office to do it For those who lived upon the things of the Temple and upon the Altar were Priests and Levites and Ministers of the Old-Testament Were all these Directions and Instructions which respect Office Temporary and Transitory Then may the whole Gospel in all the Injunctions and Commandments of it be made a Temporary and a Transitory Gospel Or can any rational person conceive how Preaching is like to be kept up and to be on foot any long time if some persons be not appointed to wait upon it and if it be not laid upon some persons as their work Or what certainty can the people be at concerning supply that way if none be engaged to it And how weakly is Preaching likely to be carried when none attend upon it nor give themselves over unto it The Apostles who had incomparable endowments beyond any who live now did yet give themselves to prayer and to the Ministry of the Word And shall not those who fall greatly below them be much rather wholly devoted to that service when as the work is so weighty if it be carried as it ought to be that it requires the whole of man But I believe these dayes wherein there is such arguing against Ministry and such pleading for the Preaching of gifted men were Prophesied of by Paul 2 Tim. 4. 3 4. where 2 Tim. 4. 3 4. which respects the heaping up of Teachers opened he saith that the time shall come when they will not endure sound Doctrine But after their own lusts they shall heap to themselves Teachers having itching ears and they shall turn away their ears from the Truth and they shall be turned unto fables It is observed that the Greek word that is translated heaping doth import three things 1. An ardent study to acquire many Teachers 2. A rash and heady gathering together of many Teachers without any solid judgement exercised 3. A confused multitude of such as are gathered together imployed And it may be further observed what manner of persons they be that shall heap together Teachers after this manner and what grounds they go upon First They are such who will not endure sound Doctrine Secondly they are such who please their own lusts and fancies in the Teachers whom they heap together to themselves Thirdly They are such who have itching ears who affect to hear many and no one nor a few will serve their turn they hear one and another without being satisfied after the manner of those who have an itch upon them Fourthly They turn away their ears from the Truth and are turned to Fables that is any thing that is new though it be a very fable and have no truth in it is thirsted after by them old truths will not please so well they leave them and turn after these It is also worthy to be considered how Teachers come to be multiplyed that there is such an heap of them why the wantonness loosness and vanity of the spirit of the People which will not endure the strictness of the care and vigilancy of Pastors and Teachers and have also itching ears shall multiply them and pile them up one upon another like an heap the lusts of the people make many Preachers more then any thing else And these persons that are so wanton that they must have many are yet such who will not have some viz such who are solid and preach the Truth For this Text saith they turn away their ears from the Truth where it is solidly held forth and are turned after fables Nothwistanding that there is a

as this as comes immediately from God we have not heard and such an inspiration as this we have not received nor do we wait for it And if the persons who propound this Question have heard any such immediate voyce as this for they pretend much to it and say Gods speaks unto them and the Spirit immediately suggests what they speak or pray in their meetings coming unto them at such time as they quake and tremble and their quaking is the sign by which others know that the Spirit is come unto them let such persons confirm Gods speaking or the Spirits speaking to them by signs and wonders and by d●versitie of Miracles as Christ and his Apostles did Heb. 2. 3 4. else they must of necessity be acounted Impostors and Deceivers of the People The latter part of the Question shews the evilness of their design and what it is that they strike at it is at preaching out of the Scriptures they would have no preaching but what immediately proceeds from the suggestion of the Spirit which they pretend to have and herein lies the venome and poyson of the Question as they are the propounders of it And they would make all preachers save such who preach by the immediate dictate of the Spirit as the Prophets did and the Apostles did to be false Prophets and Teachers of lyes which cell the people that the Lord hath said so and the Lord never spake to them Let this be looked into and examined First It will be granted by themselves that God spake by Moses by the Prophets by Christ and by the Apostles and that all their words are Gods Words and what ever they said in their Prophesies and preachings or Epistles that they wrote God said it by them this is clear from Heb. 1. 1 2. God spake in times past unto our Fathers by the Prophets Secondly It must be granted without contradiction that what ever the Fathers heard of God at any time during the Old Testament it was taken out of the Prophets it was something that God spake by the Prophets For the Priests and the Levites which were the Instructers of the Fathers and Teachers of the people spake not any thing which they had received immediately from God by voyce but what God had spoken by the Prophets or by Moses who was also a Prophet We shall finde that Ezra a Priest and the Levices with him read in the Law and gave the sense Nehem. 7. 8. Now the Author to the Hebrews compriseth all the teaching that the Jewes of the Old Testament had through all Generations whilst that Testament was standing under this head Gods teaching them by the Prophets Now we know there were not Prophets at all times in all Generations who brought immediate Messages from God The last of the Prophets was Malachy and there were many Ages after that yet the people were taught all along by the Prophets for the Apostle saith God spake to our Fathers by the Prophets But how could that be when the Prophets were dead Yea for though the Prophets were dead yet their Prophesies were living and remaining and were made use of by the Ministers of the Old Testament and urged and pressed upon the people as the Word of the Lord And Christ is said to have spoken unto us when onely the words of Christ are brought unto us Heb. 13. 25. And what ever it be that the Prophets or Christ have spoken from the Lord while upon the Earth when such words are urged upon a people it must be accounted God present speaking The Apostles dehortation is Heb. 12. 25. Not to refuse him that speaketh he speaks in the present Tense though Christ was then in Heaven and spake not but what he hath spoken when it is presented must be accounted his present speaking Christ himself expounded unto the Disciples The words that Moses and the Prophers had spoken respecting his sufferings and presseth them upon their Faith as words spoken by God blaming them for their unbelief And Paul applyed the words that God spake by Esay the Prophet to these unbelieving Jews that withstood his preaching as Gods Message to them and said they were The words of the Holy Ghost Act. 28 25. 26. And his whole witness that he gave of Christ was fetched out of Moses and the Prophets Act. 26. 2. And all that are brought to the Faith of Christ are said to be built upon the Apostles and Prophets Ephes 2. 20. Not upon an immediate voyce that comes from God to themselves or to any others who are their Teachers but upon the Word of God that was of old spoken by the Prophets and this is called a more sure word then any immediate word unless it come notably marvellously and visibly confirmed unto them 2 Pet. 1. 19. For there may be much fallacy in that and much delusion but we know that God spake with Moses and with the Prophets so also with Christ and with the Apostles and what was spoken to them was intended to continue as a rule till Christs appearing Isai 8. 20. 1 Tim 6. 13 14. Thirdly It is evident from Scripture that what ever the Prophets or Apostles have spoken or written is to be safely kept and retained and also transferred and made over to others and these others are to communicate and make the same known to others after them and so it is to pass from man to man and from age to age and never to be lost but kept as a precious treasury is kept for the benefit of after Posterity And consequently that God did not intend immediate teaching nor to give out an immediate voyce in after ages which should direct and guide men in the wayes of Salvation 2 Tim. 2. 2. The things that thou hast heard from me among many witnesses the same commit thou to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also This is the way in which God intended the propagating of the knowledge of himself and of his Son and of his will Paul must have his knowledge immediately but not Timothy but he must have it from Paul and those faithful men from him and others from them so the truth of God must pass from hand to hand throughout all Generations And the Faith viz. the Doctrine of Faith is said to be once delivered to the Saints Jude 3. and that very Doctrine which was once delivered must be always contended for This once imports as much as already as vers 5. shewes or once delivered is once for all never more to be delivered It hath been delivered that is immediately from Heaven and that cuts off all expectations of any other delivery from Heaven and of all other immediate voyces thence But all Saints must hold what they have once had 2 Thes 2. 15. Hold the Traditions said Paul which ye have been taught whether by word or by our Epistle Every Bishop or Elder for they are one in Scripture expression must hold fast the faithful word as he

hath been taught that he may be able by sound Doctrine both to exhort and convince gain-sayers Tit. 1. 9 10. And the reason is rendred because there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers whose mouthes must be stopped who subvert whole houses vers 10. 11. There must not be waiting for a new word an immediate word but that word which hath been already taught must be held fast and that is the sound Doctrine which must be made use of to convince and exhort men by and this word may be called the Word of the Lord to the Apostles and Prophets for our use and benefit though not spoken to us immediately as Paul said Well spake the holy Ghost by Isaiah he did not say Well spake the holy Ghost to me but to Isaiah It was Gods Word to Isaiah which he made use of against that people to whom he spake though not Gods word to him immediately Querie 8. Whether a man shall overcome the body of sin Concerning sin what freedom persons have from it and what not while he is upon the Earth yea or no Answ If this Question be meant of a full and perfect Victory over the body of sin which is accompanied with the utter destruction of the body of sin so as that there shall be no remainders of it abiding in men so as that persons shall be all Spirit and no flesh and in a perfect state without any propensity to sin then the Answer must be negative no man while upon Earth shall overcome the body of sin after such manner For the Apostle declares the condition of all the Saints in this World Gal. 5. 17. The flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh and these are contrary the one to the other so that ye cannot do the things that ye would and the same Apostle in Rom. 7. 14. to the end describes in his own person the vexatious exercise that all Believers have more or less in this World through contrary laws within them viz. through the law of the flesh and the law of the minde which are always warring one against the other And though they do delight in the Law of God after the inward man yet many times through the strength of sin within them they know not how to perform that which is good And this made the Apostle groan for deliverance v. 24. Oh wretched man that I am who shall deliver me c. And though he thanks God through Jesus Christ yet it was not for any perfect or full deliverance that he obtained after his groaning from this condition for he concludes of himself in the very next words after his thanksgiving That with the minde he himself served the Law of God but with the flesh the law of sin And the deliverance which he had in Christ was from the Curse of such a state rather then from the state it self and from such dominion as would make him a perfect Captive from which he was kept For still his will was to do good though many times the good which he would have done he did it not And it was deliverance he apprehended by Faith would be through Jesus Christ to him at last in which he rejoyced and for which he thanked God rather then for any victorious strength he at that time possessed And he saw it in Christ the head already and assured himself of it in due time upon that account But an overcoming of the body of sin such as delivers from all sin in this world is expresly against the Scripture as hath been already declared in our Letter which we sent in Answer to that pleaded-for perfection contained in a Letter of theirs brought to our view But if the Question respect onely a partial overcoming and such as is imperfect and is onely in tendency towards perfection of conquest it will then be condescended to For Saints go forth conquering and to conquer and yet sometimes have the worst of it and are as Captives Rom. 7. 23. And yet are never totally disarmed but reassume the weapons of their warfare and take hold on Gods strengh and get the better again and weaken the fleshly part by a power from on high And in such a sense as this it will be granted that a man may and doth overcom the body of sin He is about the work and is doing it by the power of the Spirit he is mortifying the deeds of the flesh Rom. 8. 13. and believing that through Christ strengthening him he shall be perfectly Conqueror at the last he may be said to have done it as in 1 Joh. 5. 4. Querie 9. Whether you preach no other Doctrine but Concerning preaching whether it depend upon seeing of Christ with our bodily eys hearing of him with our bodily ears handling of him with our bodily hands as the Apostles did yea or no what the Apostles did That which was from the beginning which we have heard which we have seen with our eyes which we have looked upon and our hands have handled of the word of life For this life is made manifest and we have seen it and bear witness and shew it unto you Answer This Question is proposed upon occasion of John's Preface to his first Epistle where John first declares the subject which he would bear witness of and that was Christ said to be from the beginning in reference to his Diety and said to be one heard seen handled in reference to his humanity And afterwards he declares his assurance which he had in witnessing and shewing what he should present he would shew them nothing but what he had both heard seen and handled and therefore could confirm the truth thereof unto them Now the Question demands of us whether we preach no other Doctrine then such as John preached Is the meaning of it Whether we preach Christ as he did if so we could resolve him that we aym at no other thing but to exalt Christ And we would have all our preaching tend thither But there is another thing intended in the Question Whether we preach with that assurance that he did nothing but what we have heard of him and seen of him and handled and felt of him and what is after this manner manifest unto us and within us And if this be the sense as without doubt it is then the Answer must be that we do not preach that Christ whom we have seen with out bodily eys heard with our bodily ears and handled with out bod●ly hands for Christ is in Heaven in his humanity and not on Earth and therefore not to be seen heard or handled by us or any other that live on Earth But that Christ which John and the rest of the Apostles heard saw and handled we preach and we do not give our own assurance but the Apostles assurance and we conceive that the Apostles assurance is as good now as it was then And we have warrant to preach what we have

the Earth onely but the Heaven also Now the Apostle gives the sense of these words yet once more vers 27. It signifieth faith he the removing of those things that are shaken that those things which cannot be shaken may remain Now those Persons whom they call Quakers they are shaken in their meetings first one and then another then the Text taken in the Letter shews that they shall be removed and taken away seeing they are shaken but others who are not shaken shall remain so they fall by the Text which themselves alledge But the true sense of this Text is Metaphorical and signifies the removing of things corrupt in Church and State so far as it remains yet to be fulfilled and it did signifie the removal of Moses Law of Rites that the Gospel might be establ●shed instead thereof There was an outward shaking of the Mount and of Moses but it was typical of this Metaphorical and spiritual shaking and shewed how Moses Paedagogie or Childish Discipline was to be removed away but what is this to their purpose There is also a spiritual trembling arising from the reverence of God and his Word which is inward in the foul which all Saints have more or less Isa 66 2. Ezra 9. 4. which are Texts of his citing but they make nothing for the upholding of their outward shaking nor are they persons that tremble at the Word of the Lord but are despisers of it There is also a quaking and trembling of Flesh but it did ar●se from the sense of Gods Judgements Psal 119. 120. Jer. 23 9 Ier. 30 5 6. and from a sense of Gods Wrath Psal 187. but they who have the name of Quakers being all of them perfect and without sin as they pretend cannot be afraid of Gods judgements of his wrath nor do they quake upon that account what they shall do hereafter if they repent not we leave to that one ludge of the world to determine in his time There is also a quaking from Visions and Apparitions as when an Angel appeared to Daniel Dan. 10. 7. 11. and the outside of the Vision those that were with him saw and quaked and fled through fear they saw not the inside as those that were with Saul did which saw a light though they saw no man and they were terrified And Paul was astonied and trembled Acts 9. 6. upon the appearance of Christ to him Now whether these persons pretend to apparitions or not we know not and whether there be any Apparition unless the Devil doth appear we know not onely this we know Those persons who saw many Visions and to whom God immediately or by an Angel spake familiarly which caused quaking and trembling they were such for whom and by whom God wrought many wonderful things therefore said the Pharisees to the people We know that God spake with Moses It was known to all by signs and wonders that Moses did that God had Communion with him and spake to him so also it was with Daniel Peter Paul and all others so that all might be assured that God spake with then and the appearance was visible also Now when these persons can confirm their Visions by miraculous things wrought for them and by them it will be better received that God hath appeared and spoken to them But that which most satisfies us that neither they nor their quaking are of God is first because though some particular persons upon some particular and sudden appearances have trembled and quaked yet there is nothing in all the Scripture that makes out the meetings of many people together in a constant way and course waiting and expecting to see or hear something which casts them into trances and brings upon them quaking and trembling and in a kind of order also as first one and then another Indeed the Apostles did abide waiting at Ierusalem once but never after for the receiving of the Spirit according to the Promise of the Father by Christs own special Injunction but then the Spirit came in visible manner there was a rushing wind and sound from Heaven and an appearance of cloven tongues like as it were fire sat upon every one of them and they spake with tongues But what injunction have these men to meet and sit together waiting for any appearance of spirit or Angel or ought else And what promise have they made to them or what outward appearance is there of any comming of the Spirit to them Or what mighty works are done by them Or what communion with God or with his Spirit can they have which oppose God in their many blasphemous assertions which come from them and who destroy many of the great Doctrines of the Gospel and who change and subvert Gods Ordinances viz. Relations betwixt Magistrates and Subjects Masters and Servants c. which God doth build up in his word Sister You may discern what little strength there is in those many Scriptures in your Husbands Letter heaped togegether by that which we have presented in answer A cloud of misapplied Scriptures we hope will deceive none but the simple We are willing to believe that God hath and will give you a better understanding then to be deceived with vain words Watch you stand fast in the faith quit your self well like a solid Christian be strong If you doubt of any thing send to us we shall endevor to give you satisfaction and shall beg of God to guide you even he himself by his Spirit into all Truth Appear not in any other meetings as you tender the welfare of your Soul tempt not God to leave you If your Husband bring them to your house get from among them If by any means you can have no discourse with them least you be ensnared You are warned in your Husband he conversed with them and how soon is he become one of them as his Letter shews We pitty his condition greatly What would we do to recover him and bring him out of such snares But we fear least some sin is unrepented of and that God is offended and hath left him Look you to your self and past wayes and know the evil you have done and meet the Lord by faith and timely Repentance It may be God will be gracious to you and you shall be kept in the fire and in the water in the midst of the greatest and nearest dangers so that they shall not touch you nor hurt you Which shall be the prayer of those who are true friends to your soul and do watch over you as those who must give an account to God for you Farewell From the Elders and some brethren of the Church of Christ meeting at Stoppors In the name and on the behalf of the rest Sam. Eaton The Quakers Reply to our forementioned answer sent by Richard Waller with an injunction that it should be read in the presence of the CONGREGATION I Have received a Letter wherein I find many busie minds giving senses upon the Scriptures

give the sense The sense of that place in Phil 3. 15. Let us so many as be perfect be thus minded is this Let us so many as be Sincere Upright and halt not betwixt Moses and Christ betwixt the Law and the Gospel be thus minded that is minded like to Paul as he had given them example For that was the Scope in that whole Chapter he had left the Law and all confidence in Mofaical Ordinances and followed Christ But yet was not perfect therein as to be without defect in that but was upright and sincere therein and he presseth them as many as were perfect that is upright to be as he was to do likewise and yet not to think that they can be so compleat as not to need to follow more and more after Christ but to be still striving as he was This is clearly the sense by which your husband may understand his error As for all other places to give a particular Exposition of each Quotation will take up more time then we can well spare at present but as need shall require upon intimation given us we shall be willing to hold forth the sense of any Scripture you shall doubt of hereafter as the Lord shall help us and we hope with Truth comparing Scripture with Scripture that one may not oppose another Onely in general it is good to take notice that is Scripture there is mention made of a Comparative perfection Those who stuck in Moses his Rites and could not get past them were not so perfect as those who were clearly bottomed upon the Gospel And to this Perfection Paul endevoured to bring the Colossians and Philippians and all that did believe Col 1. 28. And those who were Babes in knowledge were not so perfect as those who had their senses exercised to discern betwixt good and evil of which Heb. 6. 1. And there is a perfection that respect Justification and not Sanctification Heb. 10. 14. By one Offering he hath for ever perfected them that are Sanctified that is he hath perfectly justified all the Saints by dying once when as all the legal Offerings though repeated day by day could not do it But there was still a Conscience accusing for sin And there is a perfection that respects rather the number of Graces then the measure of them and respects rather duration and continuance to the end then any height or strength in the act of performance as Jam. 1. 4. Let patience have its perfect work that ye may be perfect and entire wanting nothing This perfect work of patience is the work of patience perpetuated and lasting to the end He that endureth to the end shall be saved Mat. 10. 22. Mat. 24. 13. And being entire and wanting nothing respects the filling up and compleating the rest of the Graces that they had with this Grace of patience exercised to the end as in 2 Cor. 8. 7 Therefore as ye abound in every thing in Faith and Utterrance and knowledge and in all diligence and in your love to us see that ye abound in this Grace also When all Graces be in Saints and do abide in exercise to the end then there is a kinde of Perfection in Saints And the Scripture doth frequently stir up the Saints to endeavor after perfection When yet it saith not that is is to be attained unto in this life 2 Cor. 13. 9. We wish said the Apostle your Perfection and Heb 6. 1. Let us go on to perfection And the Apostle himself was not Perfect but going on towards it Phil. 3. 12. Not as though I were already Perfect But I forget that which is behind c. and so follow on towards it The Apostle Paul tells us that while he was here he did see through a Glass darkly and that now that is in this life he did know but in part and if but in part where then was perfection And the Apostle John tells all Saints 1 Joh. 1. 8. that if they say they have no sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them And the Apostle James faith that in many things we-offend all he and all others did offend And he faith he is a perfect man that offendeth not in word that is he would be comparatively perfect that could only bridle his tongue but who can do it at all times we perceive your Husband cannot for then he would never have uttered such reproachsul words against godly men calling them Priests and saying they are found Lyars his Conscience will tell him that some of them are such as fear the Lord but he faith if Perfection be not here we leave an hole for Satan and when will it be if it be not here in this Life Alas alas is he left so soon to so great darkness as not to believe another Life and World after this that he asks when it will be if not here It seems Satan hath had an open door to enter into his heart and fill it with such fogs and mists of Darkness he might have read and weighed the Apostles words in 1 Cor. 13. 9 10 11. Now we know in part but when that which is perfect is come that which is in part shall be done away and he might have considered that distinction of time contained in these words Now we see through a glass darkly but then face to face this now is here and this then is after this life But he strengthens himself in that place in 1 Ioh. 3. 9. He that is born of God sinneth not but his Seed remaineth and he cannot sin This he urgeth but he considereth not that the same Iohn saith that which is contrary to this viz. Whosoever saith he hath no sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him A sound sense therefore must be brought out of Iohns words else Iohn will be found a Lyar against himself and against God as your Husband endeavours to make him denying sin to be there in whom Christ is made manifest from this text but the meaning is of sin in course perfisted and continued in without true repentance and turning from it he that is born of God cannot so sin for the seed of Truth and of Grace within him will not let him so sin for after such manner the wicked of the world sin but the Saints cannot so sin there will be smitings of heart in them and they will ask and enquire what they have done and will repent and turn to God as Iob did David did Peter and all the Saints have done Now concerning quaking and trembling there is a multiplying of many Texts of Scripture without knowledge for none of them can be applyed to justifie the practice of those whom they call Quakers The first Text that they alledge if it be taken in the Letter as they take all Scripture doth destroy them and their practice viz. Heb. 12. 26 whose voice then shook the Earth but now he hath promised saying Yet once more I shake not