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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00637	A counter-poyson modestly written for the time, to make aunswere to the obiections and reproches, wherewith the aunswerer to the Abstract, would disgrace the holy discipline of Christ.	Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name.	1584 (1584)	STC 10770; ESTC S101936	77,534	204

change of the time in the Lords supper as it is a meere circumstance of time so the alteration hath grounde in the scripture because one and the same time is not alwaies kept Act. 3. 42. Act. 20. 7. 11. c. Neither can that be saide to be according to the institution which being done vpon a particuler cause as all Diuines agree shold not be obserued wher that cause ceaseth Thus his assertions reasons being touched heere followeth a plaine declaration of the truth as to satisfie his request or chalenge Namely that the whole substance of the ordinary gouernment of the church that is to say the vnchaungable lawes of the holy things of Offices callings examinations abdications executiōs of the reason and distinction of euery one of them is prescribed of God in his holy Worde as a perpetuall Lawe vnto his Church And although euery particuler rite order which are variable according to the circumstance be not so particulerly mentioned yet are they by certaine generall rules so limitted and prescribed that no Churche can vse them at their pleasure but ought to frame thē within the boundes set vnto them of God which may appeare by these reasons following First seeing vnder the Law God by the ministery of Moses did precisely this thing for the gouernment of his Church then so that neither Dauid nor Nehemias might alter any thing but by especial reuelation from God by his Prophets it were to make God lesse carefull of his Church vnder the gospel to make the ministery of Moses more excellent then that of Christe vnlesse in like manner he had performed the same For Christe being a King hath prescribed Lawes for his gouernment and as he is a Lorde hath ordained the diuers administrations of his Church and in this respect was faithfull as Moses in all his house Againe seeing the Apostles hauing beene taught of him by the space of forty dayes the thinges which pertaine to his kingdome Act. 1. 3. that is as the Jesuites them selues are compelled to confesse the whole regiment of Christes Church did thereuppon set down such orders for the same 1. Tim. 3. 15 and giue charge that they shoulde be kept vnblameably 1. Tim. 5. 21. otherwise then which neither Timothy nor Titus might perfect that in the gouernment of the Churche which the Apostles had begun and say that they which are spiritual must acknowledge their orders in this behalfe to bee the commaundementes of our Lorde 1. Corin. 14. 37. and will their ordinaunces in this behalfe to bee kept as they deliuered them 1. Cor. 11. 2. and euen in the matter of the maintenaunce of the ministery woulde speake not according to man but according to the Law of God and the ordinance of the Lord 1. Cor. 9. 8. 14. then euery one that is spiritual must acknowledge the former position to bee true Thirdly seeing Christe hath expresly in his Word set downe sufficient ordinary Ministeries of Exhorters Teachers Elders Deacous with their proper gifts and workes of exhorting teaching diligent watching distributing for the administring of the holy things as y e word Prayer Sacraments censures and treasury and hath ordained the Eldership for y ioynt gouernment in euery particuler Congregation with Synodes for matters common to manye Churches it followeth that the former assertion is vndoubtedly true Fourthly seeing the Apostle Paule who receiued this as y ● rest of y e Gospel by reuelation did vniformally plant y e same gouernmēt in all churches as appeareth by comparing the story of the Actes w t Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. 1. Tim. epist to Titus it is manifest they had a forme prescribed thē by Christ to follow euē as Moses did all things according to y ● pattern shewed him in the moūt Againe seeing it is not in the power of man to alter or change these offices by addition or detraction because they cannot gyue nor take away members to and from Christes bodie but all the gyftes are from one spirite the faculties from one God the administrations from one Lorde and finally all Church Ministeries must be frō heauen and not from earth as Christ sayth the Scribes them selues confesse Then is there in the worde of God such an vnchaungeable rule of gouernment as is before declared Lastly seeing God in altering the outward face of his church vnder the Gospell diuerse from that vnder the law in regarde of y e ceremonies abolished and of things according to the riches and simplicitie of the Gospell inlarged did as well keep the substance of the Churches administration namely in ordayning for Priests Pastors for teaching Leuits or Doctors of y ● law Teachers for rulers of y ● Sinagog Churh-gouernors or Elders for their leuitical lokers to y ● treasury Deacons for their presbytery the eldership As he kept the holy thinges to be administred that is for the lawe and the Prophets together with them y e writings of the new Testament for the Passeouer Circumcision Baptisme the supper of the Lorde for their giftes of God gathering for the Saintes or Church-treasury for their suspension from the Tēple-sacrifices our separation from y ● Lords supper for their casting out of y ● Synagogue cutting off from the people our excommunication It is euident that that which God kept for the time of the Gospell he did in perfect wisdom ordayne and prescribe and that which Christ did inrich and inlarge he woulde not haue men cut of and abolish Wherfore if they will still rowle the stone of mans power to alter and chaunge this order of God let them shewe how men can take away that which God hath set in his Church let them shew how that is not perpetual which is grounded vppon those gyftes which serue for the ordinarie necessityes of the church in al times and places yea let them shew how they can more wysely instruct the people with doctrine feede them wirh exhortation rule their soules with spirituall power chastize them with an holy rodde and prouide for their earthlye necessities then the Lorde hath done and still offereth to doe by the worde of knowledge in his Teachers by the worde of wisedome in his Pastors by the continuall watche of his Elders by the spirituall keyes of his kingdome and by his mercifull and liberall prouiding for the needie And if it be a shame to preferre mans wisedome before the wisedome of God at the least let them declare by what authoritye they will compell the Church to refuse the strong arme of God for the weake arme of fleshe and bloude To these reasons maye be added the testimonies of the Fathers as of CYPRIAN IN SERMONE DE BAPTIS CHRIST The Christian religion shall finde that out of this Scripture rules of all doctrine haue spronge and that from hence doth spring and hither doth retourne whatsoeuer the Ecclesiasticall discipline doth

¶ A COVNTER-POYSON Modestly written for the time to make aunswere to the obiections and reproches wherewith the aunswerer to the Abstract would disgrace the holy Discipline of CHRIST Luke 19. vers 40. ¶ I tell you if those should holde their peace the stones woulde crye AT LONDON Printed by Robert Walde-graue The Authour to the Reader IT is sayde of Solomon who had no small experience in the course of al things that much reading is wearinesse vnto the flesh but it is most true euen in our owne experience that to deale with the vntamed and vntaught reason of man is a vanity vexation of spirit vnto those who loue the truth For what cunning shiftes and exquisite variety of subtleties haue they to decline the mighty strooke of the word of God And it is no maruaile if we poore dullardes be not only made blunt but almost worne awaye with encountring with such tough ware The onely comfort we haue is that when the diuell disputed yea continued disputing so long with the Son of God him self hee was at the length made to retire with those milde and yet most powrefull wordes The Lord rebuke thee Sathan Which most auncient example as it hath greatly sustayned me in this toyle of this tedious time wherein I haue had occasion to goe bare-foote through this quicke-set hedge of thornes which the aunswerer to the Abstract hath set in our way so it doth not a little grieue me that I am iealous ouer my selfe that I haue not followed in such measure as I ought that moderation which the sonne of God The prince of Angels kept when he encountred with the deuil notwithstanding I deale as I hope with a brother My comfort is that it shall be manifest that in steede of taking occasion where it was not giuen I haue swallowed downe that as sweet which is most loathsome and bitter I haue also stayd my course within the compasse of the first treatise and the daungerous appendix annexed to the same partly because I suppose he wil not abuse so much the Scripture as to wrest the defence of pluralities of Ciuill offices in Ministers of God his word of sole excommunication which is already handled in this treatise by the scripture and partly because the rest will for the most part pertaine properly to the worthye Lawyer who hath begun this controuersie and shall by the grace of God see a good end of the same The Lord bring vs all to be of one minde and hart in the truth A FAITHFVLL BROTHER to the Christian Reader THE FEAREFVL CONDItion in regard of our sinnes of this our age and in this our Noble Countrie may make thee good Christian reader and all who loue the peace of SION the flowrishing estate of this cōmonwealth vvith heauie soule and deepe sighes of heart to bevvaile the horrible wickednes of this land euen yet to this day increasing if thou doe but consider that the hard and stonie hearts being continually vvatered vvith the svveete and heauenly devv of Gods most fatherly admonitions forethreatnings from day to day dropping dovvne by his messingers rising earlye is rather hardened then any whit mollified or humbled So that neither the fearfull signes in heauen and other creatures as it were by the breach of nature weeping ouer vs nor the horrible howling and quaking of the earth trembling and fearing vnder vs hath as yet brought forth anye further sorrowe of our sinnes then that being amazed and astonished at the suddaines woondring at the straungenes and for a time while our heartes did beat lightly sorrowing at the fearfulnes thereof we made a shew as though we would haue turned to the Lord but alas we soone became like the children of Israell vvho beeing put in feare with the greate terrour which God shevved in pronouncing the Lawe in mount Syna did promise to heare obey Moses vvho being but fortie daies and fortie nights absent from them and for them vvith the Lord they fel avvay to their owne imaginations Since this hath the Lorde vvith straunge sicknesses at diuers times diuersly visited vs in our bodies yea our very hearts haue bene smitten vvith the fear of foraine practises yet vvho is it that hath rightly ackovvledged the hand of the Lorde Aboue all other thinges this is to be soberly vvaied with the equall ballaunce of an vpright conscience that euen novv on the one side the common enemy to the state and Church of God among vs hath very villanously and traiterously vovved himselfe to put out the happy light of this most peaceable kingdome euen by desperate and slauishe bloud-suckers allured and besotted vvith the fayre and favvning face of a man hayred like a VVoman of these Locustes the Iesuites who haue stinges in their tailes beeing like vnto Scorpions to take away the precious life of our moste gratious Queene ELIZABETH our most dear soueraigne the ioy and peace of all this Land the Lord for his Sonnes ●ake continue her blessed dayes among vs and cōfound al their horrible practizes on the other side like as it was in Hierusalem vvhen Titus besieged it vvhat little faith and true loue euen from the tankard-bearer to men of high degree he that seeth any thing must needes behold and tremble But O that I vvere able to povvre oute my very heart and that riuers of vvaters mighte flovv out of mine eyes that I might sufficiently bevvaile the desolation of Sion among vs yea I coulde vvishe that my life though it vvere by a thousand deaths might redeeme the breaches of the Church of God among vs. VVhose hart doth not bleede to thinke that in so peaceable daies so blessed a time vnder so Godly and religious a Princesse euen when the fire of our neighboures most rufull miseries doth flame about our eares yea and that the Lorde hath almoste drawne out his vvrathfull svvord against vs euery man follovveth the pride couetousnesse vvhoredome drunkennesse and lustes of his own heart and no man remembreth Ioseph The barres are filled vvith pleadinges and the streetes are full of the cries of the poore fulnes of meat and contempt is among vs and vvho considereth Yet if this our sin vvere only against men and not against God there migh be some hope But vvhen the mouth of the blasphemous svvearer is not tied vp the handes of the idolatrous generation of Atheiestes prophane persons be not chained VVhen the moste holye and precious vvorde of God is manifestlye contemned the ioyfull and heauenly tydings of saluation so negligently and vngratefully troden vnder foote the true and faithfull messengers pursued atained and diuers wayes afflicted then if the olde worlde for malitious imaginations Sodom and Gomorrha for pride fulnesse of meate and vnmercifulnesse If Ierusalē for abusing Gods prophets wilfulnes were wofully distroyed vvhat may wee poore careles people look for if we do not repent but as it is almost vniuersally feared speedy ruine vtter desolation O ye shepherds

or plainly directly or indirely with protestatiō or without to defend or any way vphold such a base ministery But seeing it is the righteous iudgement of God vpon all our vnrigteousnesse but especially vppon their sinne who haue admitted tollerated and defended such vnsauory salt that instead of putting them to their right vse which our sauiour sayth is to bee cast on the dung-hill and to bee troden vnder the feet of men they do not only not remoue the stincking snuffe out of the candlesticke to place the bright-shining candle in their roome but also hauing cast downe a third parte of the starres from Heauen vnto the earth doe still by publique writing vnderprop suche crazed and rotted pillers It shall be expedient before the particuler examining of his seueral allegations to let the world see how that while they are strugling with the light of their owne conscience the Lorde as the Apostle sayth hath made their madnesse manifest to all men For when as they should haue bene mooued with the pitifull bowels of our Sauiour Christe who had compassion on the people though they came to his preaching and had their doctors and teachers of the Lawe such as they were in euerye Towne and Uilladge as sheepe scattered without a shepheard they haue made themselues a laughing stocke vnto the prophane but a pitty and heart-bleeding to the godlye by their ridiculous aunsweres open shiftings contradictiōs assertions and by such positions as come nearer to the prophane spirite of the Jesuites then to the holy Doctrine of any old or new writer of whome this question hath beene handled For how vnsauory is it For to decline the sharp stroke of Gods worde hee is faine to turne the rule of the Apost 1. Tim. 3. Which by Councels and Fathers is made an ordinary rule for the examination of those which stande to bee admitted into the ministery into a Platonical Idaea which should neuer be found in any And to shift of the plaine forme of their ordination wherein they are willed to receiue authority to preach the word he sayth that It is not in vain but to instruct vs forsooth that mere lay-men are not inhabled to this office as though ther were no booke to learne that lesson vnlesse the Byshop taught it by giuing authority to ignoraunt men to open their mouthes in preachiuge which after by a straight charge he is faine to sowe vp And lastly to leaue out other which the wise reader maye easilye see going aboute to prooue reading to bee a kinde of preaching he is dryuen to demaunde whether declaring of the Worde in the mother tongue be not a kinde of declaration c. Secondly what open shifts are these to couer the shame of thē who ordained ignoraunt Ministers hee is compelled to aske What if hee made him not or that the Parish were little or poore When in his own conscience he dareth not deny and all the worlde knoweth such are dayly made and as though fewenesse or pouertie deserued a blinde guid that they might both fal into the ditch Againe how simple and naked was that where to excuse the colde exhortatious of the ignorant Ministers he is forced to say that they are as profitable as they who through more audacity take vpō thē to preach come iust as nere the text as Iarmās lips are said to come together as if one to shew y ● goodnes of y ● pestilent feuer should alledge y ● commodities of the plague Also how is this whole discourse at war with it selfe for to defend vnpreaching Ministers he challengeth mē to proue it simply vnlawfull to ordain men ministers of the Worde and Sacramentes which cannot preach when in another place he is driuen to confesse y t they receiue authority to preache to teach thē that they are addicted to the same as a thing incident to their office Which is as much to say Al ministers must receiue authority to preach as a thing incidēt to their calling yet some ministers may be ordained to the ministery of the Word Sacraments only y t is must receiue no authority to preache Nowe what concord ther is betweene him the Iesuites let this comparisō following declare They say vpon 17. vers of 1. Tim. cap. 5. Wee may note that all good Byshops and Priestes of those dayes were not so well able to teach as some others and yet for the ministery of Sacramentes and for Wisdome and Gouernment were not vnmeete to be Byshops and Pastours He sayth that they may bee Ministers of the Word Sacraments though they cannot preache They say Although it be due high commendation in a prelate to be able to teach as the Apostle before noteth yet al cā not haue the like grace therein it is often recompensed by other singuler giftes no lesse necessary He saith y ● the aptnes to teach is an high eminent Idaea of y e Apostle rather declaring what is requisite in a Minister then what is necessarily required They say some times and countries require more preaching then others He saith vnpreaching Ministers are fitt for small Congregations though not for populous and troublesom people In all which let the reader mark whether the Jesuits be not one step nerer the trueth then he Now although this be bee sufficent to bewray the aunswerers halting yet because a great muster of faint Souldiers is thought to bee a mighty armye till being incountered withall they bee seuerally scattered and put to flight it is necessary to meet euery one of this valiant host hand to hand And first we ouerthrowe his Idaea which serueth for nothing else but to set out the holy Cannons of the Apostle to the laughter of all prophane men by these reasons following 1 Whatsoeuer the Apostle inferreth vpon the worthy worke of a Byshop or Ministers office as that which must be in him for y ● necessity of that work or for the necessary adorning of it the same cannot be such an Idaea 2 But the Apostle hauing saide that hee that desireth a Bishoppes charge desireth a worthy worke thereon concludeth 3 Therefore he must be apt to teach Wherefore seing he sayth Dei einai didacticon y t is he must be apt to teach how dare he say it is onely good and requisit or an Idaea which a Minister cannot attaine vnto for if he can not be so apt to teach as is there required thē it followeth he must not be apt to teach seeing in y e gouernment of y ● Church a man must not be y ● he cannot be althogh in the perfection of God his Lawe which was giuen to shew man his sinne and that man could fulfill the same yet in the rules of the church-gouerment it is farre otherwise which are set downe for a direction to the Church in their triall who are fit to such or such offices Secondly if that property of being apt to teache bee an Idaea that is an imagination

shall finde this to be true of Deacons much more of Elders But if this exception were true as it is moste false who can chuse but hee must abhorre the hypocrisy of these men who can deface the ordinance of God which they want which they themselues haue not For their Commissaries and Chauncellors who suspende Excommunicate and administer the discipline of our Church vnder the Byshops what are they who calleth them the Byshop who ordaineth them or annoynteth them his Letters Patentes By whose prayers doe they looke to obtaine comfort in their calling by the byshops blessings without prayer without fasting To what office are they put apart to mingle heauen and earth together matters of God and matters of men to excommunicate take probats of testaments to admonish ecclesiastically commit penance to be Lord ouer y e ministers themselues hauing taken no degrees Thus though their calling bee neither ecclesiastical because they come to no church-election nor haue any such ordination nor ciuil because they be called by y ● bishop only as he is bishop put a part neither to administer ecclesiastical things only nor things ciuil only but to both and to some which are neither as to giue men spiritually leaue to mary and eat flesh in Lente as though they were made to goe beyonde all good estate of mankinde beyonde y ● body because they meddle with the soule beyond the soule because they meddle with that which pertaineth vnto it nay somtimes which is hurtful Wherfore althogh this were sufficient to stop his prophane mouth yet that it may appeare that the gray haires of this order are more auncient then the very hoarie head of his Chauncellors and commissaries I will prooue it to be the ordinaunce of GOD out of the Scriptures that there ought to bee an Ecclesiasticall Senate of Pastors Doctors and Elders gouerning onely to haue the administration of Church-matters and that they ought to bee administred Ecclesiastically 1 If the Apostles set downe two sorts of Elders which rule the Church wel and are worthy of double honor the one sort of them only ruling the other labouring also in the Worde and doctrine which are as hath beene proued before the Pastors and Doctors then it is plaine that these raising only must be added vnto them 2 But the first is true by the expresse wordes of the Apostle 1. Tim. 5. 17. 3 Therefore the former assertion is certaine To this place some are wont to obiect that the first sort are such as are occupied in the Word and Sacraments thogh they preach not But this will not serue both because we haue prooued that none are to be admitted to that but they ought to preach and also because those shoulde yet be occupyed in the Worde and therefore comprehended vnder the latter sort Now when they perceiue this will not serue beeing men willing to learne of anye they haue learned of the Jesuites to aunsweare That such Priests specially and Prelates are worthy of duble that is more ample honour that are able to teach and preach and do take paines therein And therefore they make that all for their office are worthy of double honour but specially those which labour diligently and painfully in the Worde But this shift is manifestly discouered by the text First because the Apostle shoulde then haue said thus they which are occupyed in Word and doctrine are worthy of double honor especially those which labour but he doth not make the ministery of word and doctrine common to both but the ministery of gouerning Secondlye the Apostle by these mens goodly deuice shoulde not proceede but should go backwarde in his comparison for he had then sayde more in the firste part when he sayd They which do it well or as he might saye with worthinesse of praise which he that doth must not onely do it with labour paines diligence but also with purity wisdome zeale power soūdnes fitnes many other things besides labour So this sense cleane ouerthroweth the Apostles increase by the worde Especially Thirdly by this meanes the Apostle muste make three sortes of Ministers of the worde such as are occupied in the Word but not well belike their ignoraunt Ministers First they which shoulde haue some honour for their office sake then some that doe it well but not with labour or diligence which must haue double honour though they labour not the last which doe it more then well which must haue more then double honour If this be not to dally with the Lordes word what is Fourthly If the difference were not in thinges wherein they are occupied but in the labour aboue others or the slouthfull labouring of others this difference should be none at all seeing the Apostle in other places giueth watchfulnesse which is more then labour for it is a continuaunce of labour with great regard not onely in preaching but otherwise for their soules health Yea he giueth this very word Copiōtes which labor to all that are ouer them in the Lord and admonish them which they must reuerence and acknowledge Lastly their distinction and interpretation is cleane destitute of conference of Scriptures which are not wont to giue double honor to any but to those which are painfull which labor in their worke but ours haue moste manifest witnes out of other places as shall appeare by the other reasons following 1 If the Apostle Rom. 12. setting downe y ● ordinary members of Christs Church which differ in their proper action doe set downe the Elder to be ouer the people with diligence and not to be occupied in the ministery of the Worde eyther by exhortation or doctrine but to admonish them and rule them then our assertions must needes be certain 2 But the first is manifest Rom. 12. 6. 7. c. 3 Therefore this hath beene ordained by the Apostles 1 If the Apostle say in the 1. cor 12. that besides the Ministers of y ● Word God hath set in his Church Gouernours then our Position is true 2 But he sayth God hath set first Apostles Thirdlye Teachers Gouernors c 3 Wherefore our Doctrine is not vncertaine but the liuely trueth of God his Worde Unto these two they doe obiecte that by these Magistrates are meant but that is plainelye confuted by these reasons oute of the Text. First because the Apostle speaketh of them as of Church-Officers and which were then the members of Christes bodye which then theire Magistrates were not Secondlye he speaketh of them as of such giftes as came then newly by preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles and such as they should then with zeale followe after Rom. 12. 6. 1. Cor. 12. 31. Which the Apostles would neyther say nor exhort them to doe concerning the Magistrates office for they neuer were so Annabaptistical as to exhorte theire churches to be zealous to become Magistrates Thirdly the Apostle doth after speake of the Magistrates

seruice to euil kinges he addeth least this long treatise shoulde seeme altogeather impertinent that he could not chuse but oppose to the fanaticall spirites and traiterous allegations both of these dangerous innouators of the rebellious Papistes But alas why are we poore Ministers as he calleth vs before whom a man of meane estate wil not regard so dangerous He answereth because we would haue our soueraignes kingdome to be holden at the chiefe inferior magistrates the people or Presbyteries deuotion Oh heauen O earth O Lorde our God the searcher of the secreats of all hearts the author of the holy discipline we seek reueale we besech thee our horrible treason bring vpon vs our children for euer vtter cōfusion in this life in y ● life to come if this wickednes be either intended thought vpon or be likely to follow vpon the discipline which we seeke or vpon our desire of the same If you O you holy fathers and ministers of God which haue writetn for defended mayntained with great danger attained vnto this may not cleare our cause by y ● vn fained fidelitye which you haue shewed to christian Princes yet let your wisedome experience Oh you Princes and Magistrates which haue receiued it honored it tried it beare witnesse vnto the innocēcie of this cause Shal that which hath bin a friend to magistrates when they were enemies to it be enemies to Magistrats when they should be friends vnto it Shal that which D. Whitgift himself confesseth namely That such Seniors were but long ago worne out of vse For which he alleadgeth the sentence of Ambrose before alleadged shal that I say called for of that holye man become traiterous pernitious to the state Can the office of an Archbishop in the second place of the land doing al that alone and more in Church-matters then the seniours hauing with it ciuil power and authority be free from this suspition and cannot Ministers and Elders of base account in the world medling onely as the Apostles with spirituall matters that according to the word of God be void of al surmize of such vilanous practise can their counsels be accounted safe where none come but themselues whō they wil who are deuoted to their honor kingdome ecclesiasticall And shal the ministers consultations be so fit for such practises where so many Elders as he sayth lay men of all degrees may be present where the Magistrates may haue both their eyes their eares Whose decrees in al matters of greatest waight of Excōmunication Election Abdication ending of common controuersies must come vnder the conscience of all men yea whose whole acts and counsels may easily be seene by the Magistrate who may force them to a new course if they doe any thing preiudiciall to the estate The good king Iehoshaphat according to the Word of God and the example of his father Dauid ordeined besides the Priests and Leuites in all Cities the cheefe of Families for the iudgementes of the Lord and for the matters of God besides others appoynted for ciuill matters called the kings matters Now shall wee thinke that hee coulde not see into the matters of a kingdome and the safety thereof aswell as this man The Princes of Iuda at their returne when their state was subiect vnto so many dangers when their Prophets conspired against them yet vphelde the Ecclesiasticall Presbytery to threaten excommunication and seperation from Gods people to the obstinate sinners as wel they thē-selues did confiscation of goodes and ciuill punishment neither were they euer iealous ouer their estate Wherefore seeing we haue such a cloude of witnesses of these tymes and of former both vnder the law and vnder the Gospel we need not feare but their lying irōforhead in charging vs with such traiterous opinions shalbe manifest to all and shall tourne vppon their owne heades For manifestation whereof let the Magistrates consider what is written of them highly derogatorie vnto their estate and freedome which they make them beleue that they maintaine First they say the forme and maner of Church gouernment may be altered by the Magistrate then they say the externall gouernment of the Church vnder a Christian Magistrate must be according to the forme of gouernment used in the common-wealth Which is flat contrary to that that the Christian Magistrate may alter at their good pleasure Which also driueth the Queenes moste excellent maiesty eyther to part her Crowne with some other or else muste make one Archbishop not only of byshops but also ouer Archb. y ● in the Church there maye be a Monark as wel as in the common-wealth Againe when they say y ● Archb. is contayned vnder S. Paules Bishop they leaue it not in the Magistrates power to take away his iurisdiction how daungerous so euer it be to her estate Agayne let them consider into what a low place they bring the Magistrate into in the Church when expounding the place of the Corinthes of him they make him go after the teacher therfore much more after the Archbi Hauing therfore noted these their open contradictions most absurd opinions preiudicial indeed to her maiesties authority let vs ere we passe from this general what the forme of ecclesiastical gouernment is consider once againe of his assertion and see whether it bewray not manifest ignorance containe not cōtradiction repugnance in it selfe and be not highly derogatory to Christ his scriptures His words are these pag. 192. Now as concerning the inward gouernment of the Church of Christ by his spirite God working in his children by the Ministers of his writtē reuealed word also touching the essential poynts of the outwarde policy gouernment of the church consisting in the true teaching of the word of God in the due administration of sacraments according to christs holy institution in the aduancement furthering of vertue with the beating downe of sinne and impiety and in keeking the Church in a quiet vnity and good order there is no difference of opinion amongst vs. And a little after we affirm that no such precise exact forme of external gouerment of the Church by discipline as they depaint it out is so much as by any exāple recōmended vnto vs in scripture but much lesse commanded as a continuall platforme for euer to be followed In which assertion omitting the nakednes of it armed with no proofe out of the scripture or any good reason let vs see how it sheweth such grosse ignoraunce as is not to be lucked for in a man of his gifts for it deleareth that he can not distinguish betweene the cause instrument and meanes of a thing and the thing it selfe betweene gouernment and the essentiall partes of gouernment and the fruits of it For gouerment Ecclesiasticall that is the spirituall administration of Christ by the order and instruments of his Church which he hath ordayned is a different thing from the truth of