is done to God only on the account of his incommunicable Perfections and therefore the Reason of Divine Worship cannot reach to any Creature P. Not without Gods Will and Pleasure But may not God advance a mere Creature to that Dignity as to require Divine Worship to be given to him by his fellow-creatures Pr. Wherein lies the nature of that which you call proper Divine Worship P. In a due esteem of God in our Minds as the first Cause and last End of his Creatures and such Acts as are agreeable thereto Pr. Then proper Divine Worship doth suppose an Esteem of God as infinitely above his Creatures and how then is it possible for us to give the same Worship to God and to a Creature For if the distance be infinite between God and his Creatures and we must judg of things as they are then we must in our minds suppose a Creature to be infinitely distant srom God and if we do so How is it possible to give the same Divine Worship in this sense to God and to any Creature P. And what now would you infer from hence Pr. Do not you see already viz. that God cannot be supposed to allow Divine Worship to be given to Christ if he were a mere Creature and therefore since such Divine Worship is required by the Christian Doctrine it follows that those expressions which speak of his being One with the Father cannot be figuratively understood P. But where is it that such Divine Worship is required to be given to Christ in Scripture For according to my Principles the Church is to set the bounds and measures of Divine Worship and to declare what Worship is due to God what to Christ what to Saints and Angels what to men upon Earth what to Images Sacraments c. And if we depart from this Rule I know not where we shall fix Pr. I pray tell me doth the difference between God and his Creatures depend on the will of the Church P. No. Pr. Is it then in the Churches Power to give that to a Creature which belongs only to God P. I think not Pr. Who then is to be judg what belongs to God and what not God or the Church P. God himself if he pleases Pr. Then our business is to search what his Will and Pleasure is in this matter by reading the Scriptures wherein his Will is contained And there we find it expressed That all men should hâ—nour the Son even as they honour the Father John 5. 23. Let all the Angels of God worship him Heb. 1. 6. Blessing and honour and glory and power be unto him that sitteth on the Throne and to the Lamb for ever and ever Revel 4. 13. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of things in Heaven and things in earth c. Phil. 2. 9. If it were Gods great design by the Christian Doctrine to restore in the world a due sense of the infinite distance between God and his Creatures could any thing be more repugnant to it than in the same Doctrine to advance a creature to a participation of the same Divine Honour with himself So that in plain truth the Idolatry of the world lay only in a bad choice of the Creatures they were to worship and not in giving proper Divine Worship to a Creature for that Christianity it self not only allows but requires on supposition that Christ were God merely by Office and was originally a Creature as we are But I pray observe the force of the Apostles Argument speaking of the Gentile Idolatry he saith it lay in this That they did service unto them which by Nature are no Gods Gal. 4. 8. P. You know I must now personate the Anti-Trinitarian and he answers That by Nature no more is implied than truly and really i. e. God did not advance those Creatures among the Gentiles to that Worship and Honour which he hath done Christ. Pr. Then you make it lawful by the Gospel to believe Christ to be a mere Creature and at the same time to give him Divine Worship which supposes him not to be a Creature and so you must believe him to be a Creature and not to be a Creature at the same time P. How do you make that appear Pr. From your own words for you say proper Divine Worship lies in a due esteem of God in our minds as the first Cause and last End and in actions agreeable thereto then to give Divine Worship to God we must believe him to be above all Creatures as to his Nature and Being and theresore to give Christ Divine Worship must imply our believing him not to be a Creature and to be a Creature at the same time P. But the meaning of Divine Worship here must not then relate to Acts of the Mind but to outward Acts of Adoration in the Church Pr. Were the Gentiles guilty of Idolatry in that respect or not P. Yes but not those whom God requires to Worship in such a manner Pr. Then the Sin of Gentile-Idolatry lay only in giving Divine Worship to a Creature without Gods command which lessens it to that degree as to make Will-worship and Idolatry the same and to blame the Apostles for making such a dreadful Sin of it and disswading Christians so much from returning to the Practice of it For they had the priviledg of giving Divine Worship to a Creature by Gods command which others were damned for doing without a command which makes the Christian Religion not to appear so reasonable as the Anti-Trinitarians contend it is But here are four foul mistakes in point of Reason which they are guilty of 1. In making the Sin of Idolatry so Arbitrary a thing which depends not on the Nature of the Object which is worshipped but on the will and Pleasure of God. 2. In making the Gentiles guilty of a great Sin meerly in wanting a Divine command which was out of their Power 3. In making the Christian Religion to set up the Worship of a Creature when its design was to root out Idolatry 4. In making a Fictitious God or a Creature to be advanced to the Throne of God. Which I think is far more contradictious to Reason than a Trinity of Persons in the Unity of the same Nature For nothing can be more absurd than to make that to be God which wants all the essential Attributes and Perfections of God as every Creature must do Such as Self-Existence Eternity Independency Immensity Omnipotency c. What a Contradiction is it to suppose a weak impotent depending confined created God And such every Creature must be in its Nature or else it is no Creature I do not at all wonder to find the Socinians after this to lessen the natural knowledg of God and his infinite Perfections both as to Power and Knowledg for it was their concernment to bring the Notion of God as low as possible that a Creature might be in the nearer Capacity of being made
are all things and we in him and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things and we by him And this is one of the strongest holds of the Socinians But two Considerations will take off the seeming force of it 1. That the Apostle in his disputes with the Gentile Idolaters concerning whom he speaks v. 4 5. doth utterly deny any Divinity in the Beings they worshipped instead of God when he saith An Idol is nothing in the world and that there is none other God but one He knew very well that they worshipped many v. 5. As there be Gods many and Lords many among them but unto us Christians there is but one God and one Lord i. e. we have but one Supreme God to whom we give Divine Worship and instead of the multitude of Mediators we have but one Mediator and so his design is in opposition to their many Gods to assert the Unity of the Divine Nature not so as to exclude a distinction of Persons but thereby to exclude other Gods as the proper Object of Worship and the Unity of a Mediator in opposition to their many Lords 2. That if this place excludes Christ from the Unity of Nature with God it doth exclude him from being the Object of Divine Worship for it saith That there is no other God but One therefore no Creature can be made God And to us there is but One God the Father therefore the Son cannot be God. If therefore the name Lord be taken in opposition to God then Christ cannot be God in any sense for we must have but One God but the plain meaning of the Apostle was That by one Lord he meant one Mediator by whom alone we have in this new frame of things by the Gospel access unto God the Father The third place 1 Cor. 15. 27 28. speaks plainly of Christs Kingdom as Mediator The fourth place Rev. 3. 12. where Christ speaks several times of my God proves no more than his words on the Cross My God my God why hast thou forsaken me For surely Christ might own a particular Relation to God and Interest in him as he was in human Nature without overthrowing the Divine Nature in him P. But he owns That though he is to be our Judg he knows not the time Mark 13. 32. Which seems inconsistent with the Divine Nature which knoweth all things Pr. The Son there spoken of was Christ as endued with a human Soul when he was upon earth which could not understand a secret so much out of the reach of mans understanding without immediate Revelation But it was not necessary by virtue of the Union of both Natures that the Divine Nature should communicate to the human Soul of Christ all Divine Mysteries but as the human Body was notwithstanding subject to Passions and Infirmities incident to it so the human Soul might continue ignorant of the Day of Judgment in this state both to let us know how great that secret is and that Christ had the proper capacity of a human Soul which could not extend to such things without Divine Revelation P. There is one Argument more which seems to prove Christs Divinity and doth not viz. The making of all things visible and invisible being attributed to him John 1. 3. Heb. 1. 10. Col. 1. 16 17 18 19. Pr. Now I confess this doth more than seem to me to be a very strong Argument and that for this Reason the Apostle saith The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen being understood by the things which are made even his Eternal Power and Godhead Rom. 1. 20. Was this Argument of the Apostle good or not P. No doubt it was Pr. Then the Creation of the World is an Invincible Proof of the true God. P. What follows Pr. Then if the making of all things be attributed to Christ he must be true God but this is plain in the New Testament in which the making of all things is as clearly attributed to the Son as it is to the Father All things saith St. John were made by him and without him was not any thing made that was made John 1. 3. For by him were all things created saith St. Paul that are in heaven and that are in earth visible and invisible whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers all things were created by him and for him Col. 1. 16. Thou Lord in the beginning hast laid the Foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of thy hands Heb. 1. 10. Now compare these expressions with those wherein the Creation is attributed to the Father The world is said to be made by bim Rom. 1. 20. That he hath created all things Rev. 4. 11. That of him and for him and to him are all things Rom. 11. 36. And let any impartial mind discern the difference Therefore we have as much Reason from Scripture to believe Christ to be God as we have from the Creation of things to believe a God. P. But you do not take notice of the different expressions in Scripture concerning the Father and the Son All things are said to be of the Father and by the Son 1 Cor. 8. 6. And that the Father created all things by Jesus Christ Eph. 3. 9. which proves no more than that the Son was Gods Instrument in the Creation Pr. What do you mean by Gods Instrument in the Creation Do you think one Creature can create another How then can the Creation prove an Infinite Power If you believe the Instrument uncreated then you must assert him to be true God by Nature and then we have all we desire P. But the Socinians do not like this Answer of the Arians and therefore they interpret these places of the state of things under the Gospel and not of the Creation of the World. Pr. They have not one jot mended the matter for 1. Where the new Creation is spoken of some circumstances are added which limit the sense to it as when St. Paul saith We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works that we shoul walk in them Eph. 2. 10. VVho could possibly understand this of the old Creation And so If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new Creature 2 Cor. 5. 17. But in the other places the same Expressions are used which are attributed to the old Creation without limitation from circumstances or from the Context and occasion of them 2. There are some things said to be created by Christ Jesus which cannot relate to the new Creation for by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth visible and invisible whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or Powers Col. 1. 16. How are these created by Preaching the Gospel when they are uncapable of the proper means of it which are the Doctrine of the remission of Sins upon Repentance and the Renewing and Sanctifiing Grace of God P. But St. Paul doth not
1. That they do attribute Circumscription to Christ's Body in Heaven so as to exclude the possibility of its being upon Earth 2. That they deny any such thing as the supernatural Existence of a Body after the manner of a Spirit P. What do you mean I am quite tired already and now you are turning up the other Glass Pr. Since you will be dabling in these Controversies you must not think to escape so easily I have been not a little offended at the Insolence of some late Pamphlets upon this Argument and now I come to close Reasoning you would fain be gone P. I am in a little haste at present I pray come quickly to the Point Pr. As soon as you please What think you if a Man now should bring an Argument to prove a matter of Faith from hence That Christ's Body could not be in Heaven and Earth at once would this argument hold good Yet thus Vigilius Tapsitanus argues against those who denied two Natures in Christ for saith he The Body of Christ when it was on Earth was not in Heaven and now it is in Heaven it is not upon Earth and it is so far from being so that we expect him to come from Heaven in his Flesh whom we believe to be now present on Earth by his Divinity How can this hold if the Body of Christ can be in Heaven and Earth at the same time P. He speaks this of the Natural Presence of Christ's Body and not of the Sacramental Pr. The Argument is not drawn from the manner of the Presence but from the Nature of a Body that it could not be in Heaven and Earth at the same time And so St. Augustin said That Christ was every where present as God but confined to a certain place in Heaven according to the Measure of his true Body P. This is only to disprove the Ubiquity of Christ's Body and not his being in several places at the same time Pr. Then you yield it to be repugnant to the Nature of a Body to be every where present P. Yes Pr. But what if there be as great a repugnancy from St. Augustin's Argument for a Body to be present in several places at once P. I see no such thing Pr. No His Argument is from the Confinement of a true Body to a certain place And if it be in many places at once it is as far from being confined as if it took up all places And there are some greater Difficulties as to a Body's being distant from it self than in asserting its Ubiquity P. I perceive you are inclined to be a Lutheran Pr. No such matter For I think the Essential Properties of a Finite and Infinite Being are incommunicable to each other and I look on Ubiquity as one of them P. Then the same Argument will not hold as to Presence in several places for this is no Infinite Perfection Pr. You run from one Argument to another For these are two distinct ways of arguing and the Argument from the Repugnancy of it to the Nature of a Body doth as well hold against Ubiquity as that it is a Divine Perfection And St. Augustin in that excellent Epistle doth argue from the Essential Properties and Dimensions of Bodies and the difference of the Presence of a Spirit and a Body I pray read and consider that Epistle and you will think it impossible St. Augustin should believe Transubstantiation P. St. Augustin was a great Disputant and such are wont while they are eager upon one Point to forget another But St. Augustin elsewhere doth assert the Presence of Christ's real Body in the Sacrament Pr. Then the plain Consequence is that he contradicted himself P. But he doth not speak of a Sacramental Presence Pr. What again But St. Augustin makes this an essential difference between a Divine and Corporal Presence that the one doth not fill places by its Dimensions as the other doth so that Bodies cannot be in distant places at once What think you of this P. I pray go on Pr. What think you of the Manichees Doctrine who held that Christ was in the Sun and Moon when he suffered on the Cross Was this possible or not P. What would you draw from hence Pr. Nothing more but that St. Augustin disproved it because his Body could not be at the same time in the Sun and Moon and upon Earth P. As to the ordinary course of Nature St. Augustin's Argument holds but not as to the Miraculous Power of God. Pr. There is a difference between the ordinary Course of Nature and the unchangeable Order of Nature P. Let me hear this again for it is new Doctrine to us Pr. That 's strange Those things are by the ordinary Course of Nature which cannot be changed but by Divine Power but imply no Repugnancy for God to alter that Course but those are by the unchangeable Order of Nature which cannot be done without overthrowing the very Nature of the things and such things are impossible in themselves and therefore God himself cannot do them P. It seems then you set Bounds to God's Omnipotency Pr. Doth not the Scripture say there are some things impossible for God to do P. Yes such as are repugnant to his own Perfections as it is impossible for God to lye Pr. But are there no other things impossible to be done What think you of making the time past not to be past P. That is impossible in it self Pr. But is it not impossible for the same Body to be in two different times P. Yes Pr. Why not then in two or more different Places since a Body is as certainly confined as to Place as it is to Time P. You are run now into the Point of Reason when we were upon St. Augustin's Testimony Pr. But I say St. Augustin went upon this ground that it was repugnant to the Nature of a Body to be in more places than one at the same time And so likewise Cassian proves That when Christ was upon Earth he could not be in Heaven but in regard of his Divinity Is there not the same Repugnancy for a Body in Heaven to be upon Earth as for a Body upon Earth to be in Heaven P. These are new Questions which I have not met with in our Writers and therefore I shall take time to answer them But all these Testimonies proceed upon a Body considered under the Nature of a Body but in the Sacrament we consider Christ's Body as present after the manner of a Spirit Pr. That was the next thing I promised to prove from the Fathers that they knew of no such thing and therefore could not believe your Doctrine Have you observed what the Fathers say about the difference of Body and Spirit P. Not I but I have read our Authors who produce them for our Doctrine Pr. That is the perpetual fault of your Writers to attend more to the sound of their Words than to the force of their
mention the Heaven and Earth but only intellectual Beings Angels and Men and therefore he speaks of the new Creation Pr. A mighty Argument indeed Do not all things comprehend the Heaven and Earth And the particular enumeration of Angels by several denominations shews that he speaks of another Creation distinct from that by the Gospel preached to the VVorld for the Apostles were Christs Instruments in this new Creation which they could not be to the Invisible Powers above P. We have now gone through the true and only Grounds of the Doctrine of the Trinity Pr. You are extreamly mistaken For we have other grounds besides these although these may be sufficient P. Name one more Pr. I will name several which you cannot disallow P. What are they Pr. The several Heads of Arguments made use of by Cardinal Bellarmin to prove the Divinity of Christ Who alone is a convincing Evidence of the vast disparity between the Proofs of this Doctrine and of Transubstantiation from Scripture For 1. He proves Christ's Divinity from those places of the Old Testament which are expounded in the New being in the Old Testament spoken of the true God and in the New applied to Christ. As Numb 21. 5 6. compared with 1 Cor. 10. 9. Exod. 20. 2. with Jude 5. Psal. 68. 18. with Eph. 4. 8 9. Psal. 97. 7. 102. 25 26. with Heb. 1. 6 10 11. Isa. 6. 1 3. with John 12. 41. and Revel 4. 8. Isa. 8. 14. with Luke 2. 34. and Rom. 9. 33. Isa. 40. 3. with Mat. 3. 3. Mark 1. 3. Luke 1. 76. John 1. 23. Isa. 45. 23. with Rom. 14. 11. Isa. 44. 6. with Revel 1. 8 17. Mal. 3. 1. with Mat. 11. 10. 2. From the Places of the Old Testament which attribute to Christ those things which belong to God as Power and Adoration Psal. 2. 7 8 12. Being the first and last Isa. 48. 1. 12 16. Working Miracles Isa. 35. 5. Being the God of Israel Isa. 52. 5 6. The only God Isa. 45. 5 6. The Lord of Hosts Zach. 2. 8 9 10 11. Jehovah Zach. 3. 2. Pouring out of the Spirit Zach. 12. 10. 3. From the Places of the New Testament which attribute Divinity to Christ. As when he is called the Son of the Living God Mat. 16. 16. The only begotten Son of God John 3. 16. His own Son Rom. 8. 32. His true Son 1 Joh. 5. 20. His dear Son Col. 1. 13. His Son above all others Heb. 1. 5. The express Image of his Person Heb. 1. 3. Making himself equal with God John 5. 18. Being one with the Father Joh. 10. 30. Lord and God John 20. 28. God blessed for ever Rom. 9. 5. Who thought it no robbery to be equal with God Phil. 2. 6. One with the Father and Spirit 1 John 5. 7. The true God 1 John 5. 20. 4. From the proper Names of God Isa. 9. 6. John 20. 28. Acts 20. 28. Rom. 9. 5. Revel 4. 8. 1 John 3. 16. The name Jehovâ—â— Jer. 23. 5 8. Isa. 40. 3. The Lord by which the LXX render Jehovah Mat. 21. 3. Joh. 13. 13. The most High Psal. 87. 5. A Name above every Name Phil. 2. 9. The Invisible One 1 Tim. 1. 17 6. 16. The God of Glory Act. 7. 2. 1 Cor. 2. 8. Psal. 24. 7 8 9. King of Kings and Lord of Lords 1 Tim. 6. 15. Revel 17. 14. 19. 16. The one Lord 1 Cor. 8. 6. The true God John 5. 20. The only Lord Jud. 4. The great God and our Saviour Titus 2. 13. 5. From the proper Attributes of God as Eternity Prov. 8. 22 23. Mic. 5 2. Joh. 1. 1 17. 5. Immensity John 3. 13. Mat. 18. 20. Omnipotency Rev. 1. 8. 4. 8. 11. 17. Wisdom Colos. 2. 3. Joh. 21. 17. Majesty and Adoration Heb. 1. 6. Mal. 3. 1. Invocation Joh. 14. 13. Acts 7. 59. 9. 14. 2 Cor. 12. 8. 1 Cor. 1. 3. 2 Joh. 3. 6. From the proper Works of God as not only Creation of which already but Conservation Heb. 1. 3. Colos. 1. 17. Salvation Matth. 1. 21. Foretelling future Events Joh. 13. 19. 1 Pet. 1. 11. Rev. 2. 23. Working Miracles by his own Power Mark. 4. 39. and giving Power to others to work them Mat. 10. 1. What think you now of the Proofs of the Trinity in Scripture Do you think Bellarmin could produce any thing like this for Transubstantiation No so far from it that where he sets himself in a whole Chapter to prove it from Scripture he produces a First without a Second The first Argument saith he is taken from Christ's Words This is my Body Very well but where is the Second For no more could be produced but this one single Passage about which he spends his whole Chapter and then betakes himself presently to the Fathers P. But one plain and clear place is sufficient if we be certain of the sense of that one for we are as much bound to believe God when we are sure he speaks it once as an hundred times Pr. We have been all this while comparing these two Doctrines as to Scripture and now you see the disproportion so very great as to number and variety you say one is as good as an hundred but that one had need to be wonderfully clear which this is very far from since many of your own Writers do confess Transubstantiation cannot be drawn from it as Bellarmin himself owns and he affirms it not to be improbable that no place of Scripture is so clear and express for Transubstantiation but learned and acute Men may doubt whether it can be drawn from it setting aside the Churches Declaration But neither Bellarmin nor any one who attends to the force of the former Proofs of the Divinity of Christ can say that any reasonable Man can doubt of it and that he must at last resolve all into the Church's Authority P. Have not learned and acute Men doubted of the Divinity of Christ as of Transubstantiation And therefore in that respect they are both alike Pr. We do not insist upon Men's bare doubting but on the Reason of their doubting And when but one single Place is produced which is yeilded not to be sufficient of it self to prove the Doctrine there is much more cause of doubting than where such multitudes of Places are produced and no doubt is made by those who favour Transubstantiation but that they do fully prove the Divinity of Christ. P. It seems then we must come to Reason at last And for my part I must tell you I I think that Parallel much the easiest For that three distinct Persons should be in one individual Nature and that the most pure and simple Being seems to me to be more absurd than Transubstantiation Pr. Let us set aside the comparing Absurdities at present and only examin in point of Reason the great Absurdity of three Persons being in one Individual Divine Nature P. I did hardly believe you would have
relate to a real Body as Tertullian argued in this Case And Ignatius in the same Epistle mentions the trial Christ made of his true Body by the Senses of his Disciples Take hold of me and handle me and see for I am no incorporeal Doemon and immediately they touched him and were convinced Which happen'd but a few days after Christ had said This is my Body and our Saviour gave a Rule for judging a true Body from an appearance or spiritual Substance A Spirit hath not Flesh and Bones as ye see me have Therefore it is very improbable that Ignatius so soon after should assert that Christ's true and real Body was in the Eucharist where it could be neither seen nor felt For then he must overthrow the force of his former Argument And to what purpose did Christ say That a Spirit had not Flesh and Bones as they saw him to have if a Body of Christ might be so much after the manner of a Spirit as tho it had Flesh and Bones yet they could not possibly be discerned But after all suppose Ignatius doth speak of the Substance of Christ's Flesh as present in the Eucharist yet he saith not a word of the changing of the Substance of the Bread into the Substance of Christ's Body which was the thing to be proved P. But Justin Martyr doth speak of the change and his Words are produced by all three And they are thus rendred in the single Sheet For we do not receive this as common Bread or common Drink but as by the Word of God Jesus Christ our Redeemer being made Man had both Flesh and Blood for our Salvation so also we are taught that this Food by which our Blood and Flesh are by a change nourished being consecrated by the Power of the Word is the Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ incarnate What say you to this Pr. I desire you to consider these things 1. That Justin Martyr doth not say That the Bread and Wine are by Consecration changed into the Individual Flesh and Blood in which Christ was Incarnate but that as by the Power of the Word Christ once had a Body in the Womb of the Virgin so by the Power of the same Word upon Consecration the Bread and Wine do become the Flesh and Blood of Christ Incarnate so that he must mean a parallel and not the same Individual Body i. e. that as the Body in the Womb became the Body of Christ by the Power of the Holy Spirit so the Holy Spirit after Consecration makes the Elements to become the Flesh and Blood of Christ not by an Hypostatical Union but by Divine Influence as the Church is the Body of Christ. And this was the true Notion of the Ancient Church as to this matter and the expressions in the Greek Liturgies to this day confirm the same 2. He doth not in the least imply that the Elements by this change do lose their Substance for he mentions the nourishment of our Bodies by it but he affirms that notwithstanding their Substance remain yet the Divine Spirit of Christ by its Operation doth make them become his Body For we must observe that he attributes the Body in the Womb and on the Altar to the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Divine Word For he did not think Hypostatical Union necessary to make the Elements become the Body of Christ but a Divine Energy was sufficient as the Bodies assumed by Angels are their Bodies tho there be no such vital Union as there is between the Soul and Body of a Man. P. I go on to Irenoeus from whom two places are produced one by the Consensus Veterum where he saith That which is Bread from the Earth perceiving the call of God now is not common Bread but the Eucharist consisting of two things one Earthly and the other Spiritual Pr. Very well Then there is an Earthly as well as a Spiritual thing in the Eucharist i. e. a Bodily Substance and Divine Grace P. No he saith The Earthly is the Accidents Pr. Doth Irenoeus say so P. No but he means so Pr. There is not a word to that purpose in Irenoeus and therefore this is downright Prevarication I grant Irenoeus doth suppose a change made by Divine Grace but not by destroying the Elements but by super-adding Divine Grace to them and so the Bread becomes the Body of Christ and the Wine his Blood. P. The other place in Irenoeus is where he saith That as the Bread receiving the Word of God is made the Eucharist which is the Body and Blood of Christ so also our Bodies being nourished by it and laid in the Earth and there dissolved will arise at their time c. Pr. What do you prove from this place P. That the same Divine Power is seen in making the Eucharist the Body and Blood of Christ which is to be in the Resurrection of the Body Pr. But doth this prove that the Substance of the Bread is changed into the Substance of Christ's Body P. Why not Pr. I will give you a plain Argument against it for he saith Our Bodies are nourished by the Body and Blood of Christ. Do you think that Irenoeus believed the substance of Christ's Body was turned into the substance of our Bodies in order to their nourishment No he explained himself just before in the same place De Calice qui est Sanguis ejus nutritur de pane qui est Corpus ejus augetur So that he attributes the nourishment to the Bread and Wine and therefore must suppose the substance of them to remain since it is impossible a substantial nourishment should be made by meer Accidents And withal observe he saith expresly That the Bread is the Body of Christ which your best Writers such as Bellarmin Suarez and Vasquez say is inconsistent with Transubstantiation P. My next Author is Tertullian who is produced by the Consensus Veterum and the Single Sheet but omitted by the Nubes Testium but the other proves That Bread which was the Figure of Christ's Body in the Old Testament now in the New is changed into the real and true Body of Christ. Pr. This is a bold Attempt upon Tertullian to prove that by the Figure of Christ's Body he means his true and real Body For his Words are Acceptum panem distributum Discipulis Corpus illum suum fecit Hoc est Corpus meum dicendo id est Figura Corporis mei He took the bread and gave it to his Disciples and made it his Body saying This is my Body i. e. this is the Figure of my Body How can those men want Proofs that can draw Transubstantiation from these Words which are so plain against it P. You are mistaken Tertullian by Figure meant it was a Figure in the Old Testament but it was now his real Body Pr. You put very odd Figures upon Tertullian I appeal to any reasonable man whether by the latter words