weake and gouernment to them that either cannot or will not keepe order But Christes soule after this praier was neither distressed guiltie weake nor disorderlie Ergo he commended not his soule into Gods consolation mercie protection and gouernement This is all that in all this section you haue spoken to the purpose You haue I must needs confesse a great deale of other stuffe as much as all this In one place you ignorantly charge vs that we giue Christ not a personall but a potentiall discending into Hel. For we say that Christ descended personallie into Hell both bodie and soule and suffered actuallie all the torments thereof for our redemption Otherwise were he but a potentiall Saviour and all wee actuallie condemned You quote also heere out of place and to small purpose the 10. and 11. verses of the 4. to the Ephes which might haue bene deferred more convenientlie to the 8. 9. and 10. section where it is handled of purpose Out of it you gather first an absurditie That if the same Christ did ascend and descended hee descended in soule and bodie or else he could not haue beene the same Did you neuer heare that the same Christ was from all aeternitie that the same Christ was slaine from the beginning of the worlde that the same Christ lay three dayes in the graue as Ionas was three dayes and three nights in the whales bellie And yet I trust you will not say that his soule and bodie was from all aeternitie that his soule and body was slain from the beginning sure I am that you that stand so much that the soule can not bee buried will not say that hee lay three dayes soule and bodie in the graue Your wonderfull manner in which you say these things were effected is a wonderfull Sophisme You seeme to thinke that there were no wonder in Christes descending except this place be vnderstood of his descending into hell as if it were not as great a wonder that the sonne of God descended into the wombe of a Virgine and there did cloath himself in mans nature But all this wonderfull discourse of woÌ„ders is beside the text After all these by-blowes you gather vpon this text a reason against the main conclusion That Christs soule was not in heauen while his bodie laie in the graue because then hee should haue ascended before he descended contrarie to the place of the Eph. There be two errours in the levelling of this peece that beares it quite beside the marke First you giue the name of ascending to the soule without the bodie contrarie to the Scriptures Act. 2. 34. Dauid is not yet ascended And this taketh away your next reason of two ascensions Secondlie you giue the name of descending to the descending of his humanitie into hell which is spoken by the Apostle of the Descending of his Deitie in his humane state Thus a man may see your wit howe cleanelie and closelie you can lap two fallacies into one proposition HVME sect 6. FOr the other place you bring a reddier sense out of Augustine of that which is God not of that which is man his sense how readie soeuer it pleaseth him to teaâ—me it can no wise stande with these wordes of our Saviour For this day shalt thou be with me in Paradice doth sound in all latine eares I mean to all that vnderstand the latine tongue as if hee had said This day thou and I shall be in Paradice which no man that hath one drop of braine in his head dare aduisedlie attribute to the Deitie which being there from all aeternitie could not go thither in the future time But mee thinkes I heare you say that the future verbe is giuen to the theefe onlie and with me which agreeth to the speaker is limited with no bounds of tyme. Against this I haue the consent of the best Grammarians and the theefe also For Remember mee said he when thou commest in thy kingdome By whose verdict it is cleare that he was not yet in his kingdome to whome he made this supplication Neither do I thinke that Christ himselfe did mislike with his judgement For if hee had erred of ignorance no doubt hee would haue set him right But he was so far from correcting him he rather confirmed him answering in the same tense or time Thou shalt be with me c. Moreouer the Pronoun me is referred to the person that spake which I hope you wil not say was Christ God alone but Christ both God and man Thus you see that these two places are too strong for your ordinance If you haue no better shot then these we will spred our banners with magna est iuvicta veritas HILL his reply HEre you condemne S. Augustins answer Well because S. Augustine is dead and in your margine you say that it is M. Hills answere by Gods grace and his worde M. Hill will defend it First I note a falsification of the text by you alleadged for where as it is in the text Luke 23. 42. Remember mee Lord when thou commest into thy kingdome You for Lord say Maister I tolde you in the begining Eue did change the words of the Scripture to her ouerthrowe Therefore I pray you leaue it for otherwise I must tell you of it if a boy in the Grammer schoole construe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Maister hee is worthie to be beaten and if a schoolemaister teach so he is worthy to be controlled for this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 writen by Stephanus with a capital letter wil cashire your banner of boasting bring your glorie to shame I preached in my sermon at Chippenham that to day did signifie for euer and with me did signifie the Godhead I will not only affirme it but confirme it that to day doth signifie for euer in this place first I proue it by this philosophicall reason out of Aristotle which saith In aeternis non est tempus In eternall things there is no time For time is the measure of motion therfore if there be time then is there motion Now as in Hell all men do suffer torments and in earth all labour So in Heauen all doe rest Apoc. 14. 13. Blessed are the dead that dye in the Lord so saith the spirit for they rest from their labours Therfore where there is no mutation from day to night nor from summer to winter there is no day naturall or artificiall as you suppose And this is proued Apoc. 10 6. And the Angell sware by him that liueth for euermore which created heauen and the things that are therein that time shall be no more And this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to day is vsed for euer in many Scriptures Psal 2. 7. Thou art my Son this day haue I begotten thee Act. 13. 33. we declare vnto you touching the promises made vnto the Fathers god hath
was the end of his descending But his ascending was from this earth whereon we converse Ergo the end of this descending was onelie to this earth whereon we conuerse and not into hell as you gather out of this place My maior is proued by the second rule because the mouer is one Christ the motions contrarie ascending and descending The minor is proued Mark 16. 19. Luke 26. 51. Act. 1 9. by al the Symbols or summes of our faith by the cōmon consent of all Divines and the vsuall speach of all Christians that euer was or is To this you answere that the maior is vtterlie false because Christ saith Mat 12. 40. At Ionas was three dayes and three nights in the whales bellie so the sonne of man must be three dayes and three nights in the heart of the earth Indeede if the rule of nature were contrarie to this saying of Christ I shoulde sooner yeelde that nature might erre then the Lord of nature lie But Christ came neither to destroy the lawe giuen to his church nor to the rest of his creatures called the law of nature Wherefore this answere was not Doctor-like If you had looked well about you you might haue seene that his beeing three daies and three nights in the heart of the earth pertaineth to his buriall and not to his descending more then his rysing again out of the hart of the earth pertaineth to his ascension For these are foure distinct things His descending from heauen into his humane state his burial and laying vp in the heart of the earth after his death his resurrection and returning againe from the heart of the earth into the state he was separated from by death his ascending from the earth vp into heauen I drew also another reason from the first principle to prevēt an answere that his descending might haue beene first from heauen into his humane state and then out of his humane state into hell It was this if Christs descending from heauen did end in Hell then it culd not bee one motion being so manie yeares intermitted But it was but one motion Ergo it ended not in Hell To this you answere that I who charge you with cloudes of Sophistrie do raise such mistes of Sophistications that you cannot see in them what I mean by this one motion But there is not the cause That the Owle cānot see in the light the fault is not in the light but in the eie of the owle There is not a gnerall in Oxenford that had spent a moneth in reading Aristotles 5. and 6. bookes de natura that would not haue knowne this argument One descending is but one motion Paule speaketh heere but of one descension Ergo but of one motion Your degrees of humiliation are heere impertinent Howe properlie they are distinguished I referre it to the margent You tell mee in the beginning that my first reason was from the place of Iohn I came from my Father into the worlde c. Now sillie man I pitie your simplicitie That is no reason at all But seeing I was to apply naturall reason to this text I brought that place to proue that I made no private sens of these words Which course if you would follow your wrangling would soone weare to an end But you say that that place doeth little or nothing pertaine to this place that heere wee haue in hand A fig is not liker a fig then that is like this That hee descended and that he came from the Father that he ascended and that hee went to his Father are so like that though you put on your spectacles you will not finde a haire betweene them The argument that you frame heere for mee and the two absurd similies framed on the same block let them bee buried in the brain that bred them That is the fittest coffen I know for such rotten stuffe Wherefore to conclude this disputation about these wordes seeing neither your examples in the former section wil fit your hand nor this place tolerate your absurde sense I muste put you in minde of Chippenhames pulpite There be manie godlie soules that would be glad to see you so honest as to performe the worde that you passed there before them HVME his 11. Sect. YOur next argument is taken from the wordes of our Sauiour to Marie Magdalene forbidding her to touche him because he had not yet bene with his Father Whervpon you gather seing the whole man is said to be wher the soule is that Christs soule had not beene in heaven because he himself had not beene there It is a wonder if a man of your learning seeth not so manifest a fallacie For though by a figure a man may well say that the whole is where there is but a part yet it followeth not where the whole is not that there is no parte An argument you knowe a tot◠divise ad negationem omnium partium was neuer current amongst the learned For example The whole race of mankind is not in England Ergo there is no men there O◠Edmond Campion hangeth not ouer New-gate Ergo no parte of him hangeth there Like to this is your reason The whole man Christ was not in heauen Ergo his soule was not there That these wordes of Christ were meant of the whole it is apparant by the text For that which had not yet been with his Father was the same that Marie was forbid to touch That I beleeue you will not say was his soule which is not subject to feeling but the whole man consisting of soule bodie Wherefore it was the whole man that Christ tolde Marie was not with his Father HIL his Reply MY next place was not this but a text out of Syrac 17. 21. At the last shall he arise and reward them and shall repay their reward upon their heads and shall turne them into the lower partes of the earth If the margin is noted Math. 25. 35. So that this place sheweth that after iudgement the wicked shal be turned into the lower parts of the earth that is hell This place because you nor your Sinod can answere you haue passed it ouer and saide nothing to it but are now com to your scholepoints the which when I vse you call sophistry and so it were indeed if I did vse them as you doe You say an argument drawen negatiuely from the whole to the parts doth not hold True it is if by parts you meane integral parts but not essentiall parts My instance was thus Math. 8 11. Many shal come from the East and the West and shal rest with Abraham Isaac Iacob in the kingdom of heauen Out of this place I proue that where the soule of man is after death there is the mā said to be as we vsually say that these Patriarks and all the saints are in heauen though their bodies be in the earth and are dust and ashes If then
prooue with witnesses But in one thing you seeme farre heere to ouer-shoot your selfe Your mates reason against vs that the pangs of Hell which went before the buriall cannot bee ment by these wordes following it You open your owne side to that blowe and put the discending into the locall Hell before his buriall also and make that argument stronger against your self then you finde it against vs. Thus you see al this great winde is ouerblowne and shakes no corne HVME his 8. Sect. HEere to let this passe your next reason is from that place of Paul But that he ascended what is it els but that he first descended into the lowermost parts of the earth Where you holde that the lowermost partes of the earth muste needes signifie the pit of Hell Which thing if it were so sure as you beare in hand I wonder that no Diuines I speake of the modester sorte did yet gather heereupon that the place of Hell were the verie center of the earth But wheras you avouche so confidentlie that ERETS TACHTITH doth signifie Hel as properlie in Hebrew as hel doth in English though I meane not to stand with you for the tongue yet pardon mee to dissent from you in this For in the places which you quote it can not in my simple vnderstanding carie that sense Your first place is They which seek my soule shall go down into the lowermost partes of the earth which cannot bee meant of Hell except these reasons deceaue mee First it might seeme a presumption to enter so farre into Gods secrets as to judge his owne priuate enemies Next it should seeme not to stand with the affections of a godlie heart to ascribe that place to his enemies out of the horrour wherof there is no redemption For the children of God do rather pray for their enemies desire their amendement This place may be wel construed of the graue For it is an argument vsed by the Prophete to lay the pride of them that sought his soule and to solace himself recording that their hatred should haue an end wheÌ„ the graue should swallow them The wordes â—ollowing confirme this sense That they shall fal vpon the edge of the sword which cannot be vnderstood but of temporall death HIL his reply INdeed I brought this place Eph. 4. 9. to proue that Christ descended into Hell And whereas you charge me with immodesty for so alleadging of it I must needs charge you with two vntruths in answering this allegatioÌ„ The one is y â— I called it the pit of Hel which phraise I neuer vsed The other is you haue impudently aâ—ouched that none of the modester sorte of diuines haue euer alleadged this place to proue the descending of Christ into â—el 223 For many and those both learned and modest haue alledged this place to this purpose Athanasius interpreting this Epistle and texte thus writeth Into what place did he desceÌ„d Into hel truly which he calleth according to the coÌ„mon opinioÌ„ of men the lowest parts of the earth Ambrose on this place saith thus This Christ therefore comming downe from heauen into the earth was borne a man afterward he dyed and descended into hell from whence rising the third day he went vp to heauen before all mortall men that hee might shewe deth to be vanquished to every creature Chrisostome on this place saith Hee went to those partes of the earth then the which nothing is lower and from thence lies ascended into heauen then the which nothing is higher The like hath Augustine li. de Trin. chap. 19. Ieromâ— on this text thus noteth That Hell is vnder the earth noe man doubteth for he that descended in soule into hell asceÌ„ded both body soule into heaueÌ„ Mollerus a learned Minister of Germany on the sixtene Psalme saith that the descending into hel is plainly proued out of the Ephesians the fourth chapter Musculus on the 68. Psalm thus writeth This God which was in Christ reconciling the world vnto himself first descended into the lowest partes of the earth then he lead captuitie captiue and not only we ar deliuered from the captuity of Satan sinne death and damnation but also Christ triumphing ouer them aâ—tirants hath ascended aboue all heauens to fulfill all things Hemingius on the 2. Chapter to the Colossians thus also teacheth As by his deathe he conflicted with the enemye one the crosse so by his glorious descending into hell resâ—â—â—â—ection and Ascention he triumphed as it is Ephe 4. Leauing his cros lift vp as a monumeÌ„t of his victory To conclud Alesius a very learned preacher of Scotland on the 19. chapter of Iohn affirmeth that the 1. Pet. 3. Eph. 4. do manifestly proue the descending of Christ into hell if Athanasius Chrysostome Ambrose Augustine and Ierome of the old fathers and Mollerus Musculus Hemingius and Alesius of the new writers be all immodest diuines then haue you truelye saide but if in the iudgement of the learned all these were most reuerend men then most shameles are you to accuse them of the want of modesty More ouer where you say no diuine dare to dispute where hell is it is true in some sort for no diuine can 252 circumscribe the place of hel which is infinite nor yet of heauen only the word of God affirmeth that heauen is aboue Gal. 4. 26. And hell is beneath Prouerbs 15. 24. Therefore the lowest parts of the earth may well be taken for hel Then you goe further say that ERETS TAGHTITH doth not signifie hell Psal 63. and for this you bring two reasons the one is y â— it were a presumption in the Prophet to iudge his enemies 2. that it standeth not with the affections of a godly minde to assign hell to his enemies but to pray for them to your first reason this I answer In the Psalm 9. 18. Dauid useth the like speeche The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the people that forget God which text Caluin thus expoundeth the Hebrewe word SHEOLâ—â— which was doubtfull I haue not doubted to translate hell for though it doth not displease me that others 〈◊〉 it Sepulcher yet it is sure heer is som thing noted besides common death otherwise he should speak nothing of the reprobate but that which did generally happen to al beleuers In the hundred and â—inth Psalme also Dauid thus praieth Let Satan stand at his right hand let his prayer be turned into sinne let the wickednes of his Father be had in remembrance in the sight of the Lord and let not the sinne of his mother be done away **** Do you think this to bee spoken presâ—â—tuously Many such texts could 〈◊〉 alleadge to proue that Dauid inspired with the spirit of prophecye did foretel not only of the tragicall destruction of the bodies of his
is the other For as Athanasius saith in his booke of the incarnation of the word Death Could not prevaile on the humaâ—e soule of Christ to tye him there neither corruption inâ—ading his body by â—iranny could shewe her force on him to putrefaction as things not well seene vnto for to thinke so of him were a wicked thing for even as Adam had a double punishement inflicted on him for his disobedience the on was on his body earth thou art and to earth thou shalt returne and so by this decree the body of the Lord departed vnto the earth but to the soule hee said Thou shalt dye the death Hereof it commeth to passe that man is deuided into 2. parts and is condemned to depart to 2. places and therefore it was necessary that the selfe same Iudge which had made this decree that hee by himselfe being vnder the colour of a condemned man shuld free from that sentence all beleuers Here you see by this learned Father that Christs soule went to Hell to deliuer our soules from hell and his body to the graue to deliuer vs from death by this means both body and soule personally and not potentially as you teach working our deliuerance from death and hell haue those prerogatiues which Dauids soule and body had not And for this coâ—sideration though the one was in the graue and the other in hell yet both were in the handes of the Lord. Heere then wee must learne what the hands of the Lord do signifie Sometime the hand of god doth signifie the Sonne of God Psal 144. 7. Send thy hand from aboue Sometime it signifieth the power of God Psalm 136. 12. With a mighty hand and outstretched arme Thirdly the bountifulnes of God Psal 145. Thou openest thy hand and fillest euery liuiug thing with thy blessing Foâ—rthly it signifieth consolation Ezec. 3. 22. The hand of the Lord was with me comforting me Fiftly grace Psal 118. 16. The right hand of the Lord â—ath done valiantly Sixtly it signifieth the gift of prophecie Ezec. 8. The hand of the Lord fel there vpon me Seuenthly mercy Psal 37. 24. Though he fall he shall not be cast off for the Lord putteth vnder his hand Eightly the protection of the Lord Psal 31. 15. My times are in thy hand Ninthly the aide of the Lord Psal 74. 11. Why withdrawest thou thy hand Tenthly the punishment of the Lord Iob. 19. 21. Haue pitie on me ô yee my frinds for the hande of the Lord hath touched me Lastly it signifieth the Gouernment of the Lord Psal 95. 4. In his hand at al the corners of the earth This place therefore must needes haue this construction into thy consolation mercie protection and gouernment I will commend my soule I hope you your selfe commende your soule into the handes of God euery day but yet you minde not to goe to heauen immediatly So saide Dauid Psal 30. 5. Into thy handes I commend my spirit but hee went not to heauen in manye yeares after neither did Christ ascende into heauen in many dayes after but went downe to hell where it was in the protection and gouerement of the Godhead which as you confesse descended into hell For as we being in the damned world are in the protection and hand of the highest so Christ being in the place of the damned after a wonderfull manner was also in the Lords aide and protection by meanes whereof he hath wrought our deliverance from hell Therfore proue you that Chirst went straitway to heauen and you shal effect that which many of your side haue attempted but neuer yet any coulde bring to passe It is written of Procustes that if any were too short for his bâ—â— he would not stretch theÌ„ out and make them fit for his lodging so you this place being too short to fit your wast will enlarge it with a word immediatly which is not the place primitiue or derivatiue expressely or by way of implication Moreouer where you say if I will answer this place I must proue that he that mindeth to go to hell doth vse these words I wonder that you dar vse such blasphemons speeches for hereby you insinuate that Christ was but a meere man that other men haue a part in the work of our redemption aswell as Christ For as he is our only Sauior so as Luth. saith on Gen 21. Chapter This was singular in Christ Thou shalt not leaue my soule in Hell nor suffer thy holy one to see corruption for this soule could not be deteined in hell nor his body in graue For as this was singular in Christ that hee did giue vp his ghost so was it singular in him to go to hell and returne again Ambrose saith Tradidit spiritum suum quia non inuitus amisit quod enim emittitur volunt arium est quod amittitur necessarium He gaue vp the ghost because hee lost not his soule against his will for that which is emited is voluntarie but that which is amitted is necessary Theophilact sayth hee cryed out with a loude voice and gaue vp the ghost for he had power to lay downe his life and take it vp again Now when you can proue that you or any of your side haue this power in you to dye when hee will and liue againe when hee will then will I prooue that hee that speaketh these words Into thy hands I commende my spirit hath an intent to goe to Hell But as Christ his birth was a singular thing in him so was his death buriall descending in to hel resurrection and assension into heauen Eccle. 8. 8. Man is not Lord ouer the spirite to retaine the spirit And Iohn 10. 18. Christ saith No man taketh my life from me but I lay it downe of my selfe I haue power to lay it downe and power to take it vp againe By these two places it is euident that no man can lay downe his owne spirite but the only sonne of God had that prerogatiue and therefore as the laying downe of his spirit and the taking vp of his spirit againe was wonderfull so was the state of the soule and body during the time of the seperation of the parts of the humanity singular and wonderfull Absurdities admitted in this sect by the D. First that Christ did descend in soule and bodie take it how he will is absurde If he meane into Hell taking Hel as he would haue it that is in soule onlie If into the graue it was in bodie onelie If into the wombe of the Virgine It was in Diuinitie onelie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Second If Christes soule had not gone to the locall Hell Dauids must and his and mine contrarie to the suffiencie of Christs sacrifice Third That Christes soule and bodie besides innocencie had other prerogatiues then Dauids had Contrarie to
heere now knowe if you knowe it not that I haue such reasons not to take your signification of SHEOL heere as shoulde carie you as well as mee if your wit were not maried to your wil. First though the Assyrians and Babilonians of whome the Prophetes speak in these places were heathens and damnable miscreants yet it was not their purpose to speake heere of their aeternall damnation but of the dishonorable destruction of their temporal kingdomes Secondlie that which Esay in the 9. vers calleth Hell he calleth four times the graue and twise the pit in the same chap. Thirdlie in the same ver which you quote hee saieth that hell raising vp the dead even all the Princes of the earth did meete the king of Babell But all the dead euen the Princes of the earth were not in the Hell of the dāned Fourthlie in the 11. ver he calleth the place into the which the King of Babell was brought the graue with wormes vnder and ouer him But that cannot be the place of the damned Ergo the place of which he speketh heere cannot be the place of the damned Fiftlie in the 15. and 16. verses hee saieth When hee was brought downe to the graue to the sides of the pit they that sawe him shoulde say is this hee that made the earth to tremble But men coulde not see and looke into his falling into the place of the damned Ergo the place whereof he there speaketh is not the place of the damned Thus much for Esay For Ezechiel First in the 14. verse he joyneth the lower-moste parts of the earth with them that goe downe into the pit and in the 16. verse hee joineth the going to hell with the same But to descend into the pit is to goe downe into the graue not into hell Ergo both the lower-most partes of the earth and SHEOL heere is taken for the graue Secondlie in the same 14. verse the nether partes of the earth is the pit and place of death common to all the children of men But the pit and place of death common to all men is not the place of the damned Ergo the low er-most partes of the earth is not heere the place of the damned Thirdlie in the 16. verse The Lord did make the nations of the earth to shake at the sound of his fall when he did cast him downe into Hell But the nations of the earth heard not nor felt not his fall into the Hell of the damned Ergo this is not vnderstood of the Hell of the damned All these reasons had I and they made mee dare to translate SHEOL not the place of the damned but graue And therfore M. Doctor you may cease to wonder at mee if you will And nowe I must wonder also at your manner of reasoning That the lower-moste partes of the earth doeth signifie Hell saye you I will prooue it by the 12. verse of the same Chap. of Ezech. And the strangers haue destroyed him euen the terrible nations c. Then not finding your purpose there you runne to Munster Lavater and Pellicane that the King of Asshur was the prey of carnivorous byrds and yet not finding to satisfie you you wring out a consequence that if he was deuoured of beasts then he was not buried if he was not buried then hee was not in the graue If he was not in the graue then the lowermost parts of the earth wherin he was must needs be Hell Where I tell you I must needs wonder how you could leape so many ditches without a staffe to finde Hell in this verse For all the load you lay vpon me here of ignorance misvsing the text I did not take one such leape in all my Letter As for my instance out of the 139. psalme that SHEOL doth not alwayes signifie Hell but may signifie the mothers wombe you say it is childish reason prooue it with a Catholik rule that Argumentum ductum à Metaphora non valet I knowe not what you mean by an argumēt à metaphora This is the first time that euer I hard metaphora suspected to be a topick place yet I haue heard good argumēts in metaphorical words Christ himself the best logician that euer I knew had wont to make many such As for example The seruant that putteth not his Lords talent to the vantage shal be cast into vtter darknes where shal be weping gnashing of teeth But al ministers that labour not faithfully in their charges are such Ergo all ministers that labor not faithfully in their charge shal be cast into vtter darknes c. I beleeue at the latter day when arguments wil be as well sifted as euer they were in the school-streats at Oxen. this will be found a good argument for all the metaphora that is in it As for my argument I see not how it is a metaphora Though the signification of the word be metaphorical as Caluin wel noteth yet it serueth my turne to prooue that it is not alwayes Hell And now you put me in minde of it I will picke another argument out of the same place that perhapps will trouble you worse That is the naturall signification of euery worde whence the metaphoricall is taken But this signification of these wordes the lowermost parts of the earth is taken from the dennes and cauernes of the earth as you note me out of Caluine Ergo the proper◠signification of this worde is the dennes and cauernes of the earth and not Hell of the damned Of this judgement is Mercerus Cevalerus and Cornelius Bertramus in their additions to Pagnines Lexicon You confute Beza and me for applying these wordes to the place of the Ephes thus He that descended is euen the same that ascended But he ascended in soule and bodie Ergo he descended in soule and bodie which is not true of his descending into the virgins womb And here you charge vs with ignoraunce or wilfull denying the Incarnation of Christ Good M. D. vse me as you wil but be good to Beza he hath bene well thought of as yet I wonder that seeing so much against him and me you coulde not see the same against your self You hold that this is ment of his descending into the local Hell against which thus I vse your owne reason He that descended is euen the same that ascended But he ascended bodie soule Ergo he descended into Hell bodie soule a thing that you haue not yet granted Howe you will answere for your selfe I leaue it to yourself I haue answered sect 5. for Beza and me see there We denie not the incarnation of Christ you purge vs your self within fiue lines Wherfore you might haue let Theoph. alone if you had no more skill to proue thinges not denyed then the things in question and controuerted HVME Sect. 10. BVt to let you alone with your Hebrewe these wordes of the Apostle can no wayes be taken for Hell as you beare vs in hand
But doth purport the same that Iohn tolde vs in other wordes I came from my Father into the world and again I leaue the world and go to my Father For seeing the Apostle in this place bringeth his ascension as an argument of his descending which Iohn also did before him No man can asscend vp into heauen but he that hath descended from heaven the sonne of man which is in heauen It must follow by necessarie consequence that he descended thither whence he ascended Now I trust you will say that he ascended into heauen not from Hell but from Bethanie in the sight of his Disciples Secondlie if the place where he descended was heauen Hel cannot be the place whither hee descended For if euer he was there he went not thither in 30. yeares after his descension and aboue If you will say that he first descended into the earth and then into Hell then that descending could not be one motion beeing so manie yeares intermitted but must needes bee two first from heauen into the earth and then from the earth into Hell HIL his Reply VVHere you say you will let mee alone with my Hebrue words yet deny they signifie hel I hope because I haue proued that they signifie not the graue as you haue ignorātly or against your conscience affirmed at your next answering you will say they signifie hell and confesse your disagreement with Dauid Esay and Ezechiel Now you conclude with certaine pregnant reasons as you imagine your first is this These words do purporte vnto vs that which Iohn told vs in other words I cam from my father into the world and againe I leaue the world and goe to my Father Ioh. 16. 18. This is nothing pertaning to the matter we haue in hand vnles this be your argument Christ came into the world ergo he went not into Hell Heerof I thus argue Christ descended into the virgins wombe as your selfe say ergo he came not into the world Or thus Christ descended into the world ergo he descended not into the graue Christ was borne of the virgin came into the world to reconcile vs to his Father by his death taking away our sinnes and triumphing in his owne person ouer death and hell 319 Therefore not only Christ came downe into the world but as our body for sinne lyeth in the graue so his body went into the graue and because our soule was mancipate vnto hell his soule went into hel that by his discending our soules might bee freed from hell In your next reason you say that Christ descended thither whence he ascended now that is meerely false as appeereth Math. 12. 40. For as Ionas was in the whales belly 3 dayes and 3. nights so shall the Sonne of man be 3. daies and 3. nightes in the hart of the earth Now Christ ascended from the superficies of the earth but he descended into the hart of the earth Therefore as this is no good argument Christ ascended from the mount ergo he ascended not from the graue so this is also a weake argument Christ ascended from the world ergo he went not into hell M. Hume lyeth in his bed and early ariseth afterward many seeing him he rideth towards Bromham ergo M. Hume came from Bath and not from his bed Then you adde this reason if Christ descended into hell then it was 30. yeeres after his birth and so it was not one motion you charge me with cloudes of sophistry but heer is a thick mist of sophistications what you meane by this motion I know not but all the actions of our Sauiour are aptly deuided into humility and glory of his humility there are 4. degrees First he came into the virgins womb secondly into the world thirdly to the graue fourthly to hel Of his glory and exaltation likewise there are foure degrees First he came out of hell and the graue secondly he conuersed in the earth thirdly hee was carried in the aire in a cloud and then entred the heauens with glory Also where you say that if hell were the place whyther he descended it must needs be the place from whence he ascended This as I haue saide before is vtterly false if you meane the immediate place from whence he ascended for it is known to all beleuers that Christ did descend into the graue but he did not ascend immediatlye from the graue therefore your reason is against the Scripture wher you make a distinction betwene the resurrection and the ascention you may vnderstande if it please you that Eph. 4. 9. The word ascend containeth in it al y ◠degrees of Christs exaltation therfore the resurrection also as the word descend doth comprehēd all the degrees of Christs humilitie HVME his Reioynder IT is as easie to holde an Eele by the taile as you to the question The place whereon wee stand is in the 4. 9. to the Ephes But that hee ascended what is it but that hee first descended into the lower-moste partes of the earth Which wordes most of the learned and many of your owne favorites takes to be as if he had said that the Sonne of God cloathed in mans nature is ascended vp to heauen what is it but that the same Sonne of God first came downe into the lower-most partes of the earth and tooke on him mans nature so that hee which descended is euen the selfe same that is ascended to fulfill all things and giueth nowe these gifts to men to bee some Apostles some Prophetes some Evangelistes c. And so they take the lower-most parts of the earth not to be the center of the earth in respect of his highest and extreame superficies but the whole earth in respect of the heuens Or if you like not that which notwithstanding is most receaued amongst the learned the base estate that hee descended into in respect of the high estate that he descended from To ouerthrowe this interpretation you alledge that the Hebrew wordes ERETSTACHTITH is in that language the proper name of Hell To proue it you alledge the places which I haue confuted in the former 2. sectiōs After which labour I gathered some reasons from the infallible rules of nature to proue that this place cannot carie your sense My grounds were Vnius motus vnum est principium vnus finis And contrariorum motuum vnius res moventis principium vnius est finis alterius contra For example East and West South and North vp and downe are contraries If anie thing runne west-warde and return east-ward the furthest point that it runneth towards the west is the beginning of the motion towards the east or if a man come down a high hill and returne vp againe The lowest steppe that he came downe is the first step of his going vp Whervpon thus I resoned The beginning of Christs ascending
the soule of Christ were in heauen vntill his resurrection then could not these words of Christ bee true Iohn 20. 17. Touch me not for I haue not yet ascended vnto my father for it is the preter-perfect tense 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore as this is vntrue to say that Abraham is not in heauen because his body was not in heauen so this is false to say Christ was not in heauen because his body was not in heauen Our body is gouerned by the soule and man taketh his appellation of a reasonable creature not of the body but of the soule and therefore if Christs soule went vp to heauen as you say this cannot be true I haue not yet ascended to my father Besides if Christs soule went first to heauen and afterward his soule and body togither then were there 2. ascensions proue this and I will geue you the goale You dally also with my argument in this manner The whole race of mankind is not in England ergo there is no men in England Do you think there is no more union betwixt Christ and his soule then betwene all the men of the world then by this reason the body and the soule of Christ were neuer vnited together Your next resemblance is this Edmund Campions whole body is not ouer Newgate Ergo no part of him Heere is a foule error to thinke Christs soule to be an integral or diuisible part which is ane essential or indiuisible for by your reason Christs soule is mortal may perish as the integral parts of CampioÌ„ doth You vtter also an other error in these words the whol man Christ for the whol man doth not make Christ but God and man as you may see in Athanasius Creede As the reasonable soule and flesh is one man So god and man is one Christ I will ende therefore with this saying of Irynaeus who liued vnder Marcus Antonius in the yeare of our Lord god 125 which thus proueth the descending of Christ into hell For the writing against Heretiques that said hel was in this world as many doo now a dayes thus reproueth them in his fift book and last chapter As Ionas taried in the whales belly three dayes and three nights so shall the Sonne of man bee in the hart of the earth And the Apostle saith what is it that he ascended but that he first descended into the lowest partes of the earth and Dauid prophecying of this sayd Thou hast deliuered my soule from the nethermost hel and rising again the third day he sayd to Mary which he sawe first and worshipped him Touch me not for I haue not yet asscended to my Father but go to my Disciples and tel them I will go to my Father and to your Father If then the Lord keep the law of the dead that he might be the first begotten of the dead how are they ashamed that say hell is in this world Thus you see it is no strange thing to see this scripture alleadged to proue that Christs soule was not in heauen vntil his visible and glorious ascention Irenaeus a man of more learning and iudgement then I am of alleaged it to the same end aboue 1300. years ago and then it was accompted a currant argument among the learned HVME his reioynder to the 11. sect HEere before you will buckle with this section you thrust for-ward your invincible Goliah as you suppose and will haue him make an end of this battell You say that neither I nor anie of my freends dare meet him You thought so because amongst all his fellowes I mist him onelie But you are deceaued of his valour He hid himself amongst the slaine heapes of his fellowes If I had seene his creast I had seauen stones in a scrip the least wherof was big inâ—â—gh to beat his braine through his helmet The place is in the 17. of Eccles I neede not repeat the wordes First I could haue tolde you that the booke is not Canonicall Secondlie that it was not written in the tongue on the property whereof you build your argument Thirdly that these words the lowermost parts of the earth be not in the originall wherein this book was first written and therfore haue gotten Tom Drummes intertainment by the Geneua translatours lunius Vatablus and divers others Fourthlie that though it had pleased Iesus the sonne of Syrach to cal Hell by that name it will not follow that all other men did vse the worde so Fiftly that you could finde those words in that sense in some place of the Canonicall Scriptures which indeede you cannot it will not follow that whersoeuer wee meete with them they must haue the same signification except the necessarie circumstances doe approue or inforce it Sixtlie that seeing that place is spoken of the mercifull them whose good deedes the Lord doth keep as the aple of his eie it were a bad reward for men whose good deedes are so precious in the Lordes eies to bee casten into the dungeon of Hell Seventhlie and lastlie that seeing the common translator who foisteth in those words doth make it the reward of euery man to be cast into the lowermost parts of the earth it wil passe your skill to proue that euerie man shall be cast into hel The note in the margent of the 25. 35. of Math. helpeth not you but prooueth the contrarie that this place pertaineth to them that giue meat to the hungrie drinke to the thirstie and clothes to the naked c. Thus you may see that this champion is not so strong as you take him and that the note in the margent whosoeuer made it helpeth you like ale in your shoes You tell mee that nowe I am come to my schoole-points which in you I called Sophistrie The true maximes and rules of art sucked out of the marrowes of nature I neuer called Sophistrie in you nor no man else Your shrimpish reasons set out in the painted coates of blased words and confidentlie commended to the beholders without al bounds of modestie I haue called them what I haue called them and not so ill as they deserue My rule which you say were sophistrie if you vsed it as I doe you confesse it to be true in integrall parts Nowe say I the soule and the bodie be integrall parts of a man Ergo by your owne confession my rule is true of the soule and the bodie But if you had taken my maxime right you should haue found it hold in all parts whatsoeuer For I meant that a particular negatiue of the whole is not good to bring in a negatiue of anie particular part All Campion hangeth not ouer New-gate importeth that some part of him haÌ„geth there And all men bee not in England importeth that there be some men there which bee particular negatiues expressed in generall tearmes as non omris and nonnullns
might seeme to haue fled the brunt of your answere I am sorie that it fell out so For God is my witnesse I sought not mine own praise but did seek the truth Exâ—use my rashe enterprise in writing to you without anie acquaintance Let my loue of the truth which pricked mee for-warde and your challenge which set mee a worke excuse that fault if it was anie Far-well in the Lorde God giue vs al vnderstanding hearts Your freend though vnacquainted ALEXANDER HVME HIL his Reply Truth it is I did preach since a Leicock because I hard that M. Wisdome had set that opinion of yours abroche againe at Cosham I did heere also confirme mine Not because I am desirous to be contâ—tious but because I would haue no Christian man to doubt of the articles of his Faith you aske me what comforâ—able or necessarye matter you denye that wee doe preach I answere and I pray you consider oâ— it wee are borne in sinne how are we deliuered from sinne but by Christ which was conceiued by the holy Ghoste wee haue the magnitude of sinnes with Peter the multitude of sins with Mary Magdalen the turpitude of sins with the woman taken in adultery the infamy of sinnes with the Publican the diuturnity of sinnes with the theefe on the gallowes the cruelty of sinnes with paule and the recidiuation into sinnes with diuers of the Saints yet if wee repent wee are pardoned for Chrisâ—es sake who purely perfectly perpetualy obeyed the law of God By reason of our sins we ar subiect to al punishmeÌ„ts both corporal and spiritual and to the wrath of God All the punishments due to vs did Christ suffer vpon the crosse both in body and soul and therfore it is called his Passion He suffered in the Garden in Annas and Caiphas house in Pilats hal but vpon the crosse as you say truly he suffered the agonies of death tormenets of hell Further by reason of sin this was laide vpon the first Parentes Thou shalt die the death so by reason of this sentence not only the body was condemned to death but the soul to damnation To deliuer vs from these two punishments the soule of Christ went to hell and returned and the body of Christ that lay dead in the graue rose again mightily naturallye speedily and happely Beesides Christ rose in deede he gaue himselfe to be felte and handled herevpon wee are assured that he conquered death and hell He ascended into Heauen and therfore our praiers are hard when we pray vnto him and he giueth vs gifts for our ministry and so he shall come to iudgement at the last day to giue vs perfect blessednes You confess that Christ was borne in deede liued and fulfiled the law in the likenes of our flesh sinne excepted he dyed in deede he was buried in deede he rose and ascended in deede and yet you will not confesse that he personalye descended How can al these articles going before and comming after be vnderstode of the person of Christ and of his humanity not this Therefore you denying this personall descending of Christ into hell take away the greate comfort of our deliuerance from hell You say we are deliuered from hell by Christs death so are we too by his birth For if Christ had not bene borne he had not dyed so if there had not beene a seperation of the body and soule of Christ he could neuer haue conquered death or hell for by descending into the graue and that personally he conquered death hath deliuered vs from death by going downe into hell personallye he hath conquered hel And for this cause the scripture applieth it to the death of Christ because death was as Paul saith Phil. 3. A dissoluiton of body and soule And these 2. parts being dissolued Christ came from the graue and from hel and Christ did conquer both and triumph ouer them in him self as it is Col. 2. 15. These Jewes do aske asigne from heauen Math. 22 38. Luk. 11. 29. to whom Christ said A wicked and addulterous Generation doeth aske a signe but no signe shal be giuen them but the signe of Ionas the prophet for as Ionas was in the whales belly three dayes and three nights so shall the sonne of man bee in the hart of the earth three daies and three nights Which words Basilius Magnus interpreteth very wel These words a signe is a matter made manifest coÌ„teyning y â— declaration of some thing that was hidden as y â— signe of Ionas representeth y â— descending of Christ into hell and the resurrection of Christ and as Bede saith Rhab. also he gaue theÌ„ a sign but not from heauen because they were vnworthy to see it but from the depth of hel Therefore M. Hume this is a most comfortable doctrine that Christ doth deliuer vs from hell which albeit you agnise as well as wee yet because you deny the meanes where by it was purchased you deny a most comfortable doctrine for not only the body of Christ was in the heart of the earth but the son of man which signifieth the whole humanitye that is the soule and the body Ionas was in the whales belly aliue and yet came forth Christ was in the graue dead in flesh and aliue in hel and yet came forth Therefore to take away this maner of descending taketh away from the Church a singular comfort and openeth a gap to many errors confuted already by the Fathers For if Christ did conquer hel by the power of the Godhead only and not as he is a man what neede had he to take vpon him our nature but because as man he might be Lord not a heauen and the Angels but of the earth and of the inhabitants therof and of hell and the diuels You say the world is sory for me In the world saith Christ you shal haue affliction And he telleth me the world wil hate me I way not these things for I am noe man-pleaser nor lover of the world But if in my Sermon I had disagreed with Dauid Ezechiel Esay Peter Paule Christ himselfe 923 as you haue done in your an were I hope I should be both sory and ashamed Touching M. Chalfont whome you terme a man without iudgement and that he spake impudently and enuiously I neuer sawe him before that time and but once sence but by that speech and conference which I had with him I ford him to be learned and vâ—id of gail Such of his neighbours as I haue talked with did giue him y â— deserued praise of a learned and honest man And for asmuch as hee hath preached 926 sound doctrine in preaching the affirmatiue and that doctâ—in which is allowed by the learned conuocation of