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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85400	Innocency and truth triumphing together; or, The latter part of an answer to the back-part of a discourse, lately published by William Prynne Esquire, called, A full reply, &c. Beginning at the foot of p. 17. of the said discourse, with this title or superscription, Certain brief animadversions on Mr. John Goodwins Theomachia. Wherein the argumentative part of the said animadversions is examined; together with some few animadversions upon some former passages in the said reply. Licensed and printed according to order.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1645 (1645)	Wing G1176; Thomason E24_8; ESTC R22666	90,413	109

into another But when such things concerning the worship and service of God which a man cannot with a good conscience submit unto shall be enacted and commanded under mulcts and penalties by those that have power and authority over us wee cannot refuse subjection hereunto but at our perill and with the sustaining of what detriment or dammage whether in our estates liberties or otherwise as the commanders shall please to impose Therefore the case between a particular Congregation and the representative body of a Kingdome is farre different Fifthly and lastly the representative Church and State of a Kingdome may and doth ordinarily differ from it selfe in poynt of judgement touching matters of Religion at severall times as much as heaven and earth Such Bodies in the dayes of Queene Mary and before stood up for Lordly Episcopacie which you confesse page 8. that Body which now is hath by solemne covenant abjured And besides enacted many things concerning the worship service of God which other Bodies of the same representation and power have since repealed And the nature and claim of such Bodies as these in their severall successions is that what powersoever hath been either given unto or exercised by any of the Predecessors of right appertains to the Successor So that suppose the representative Body now in being shall be freely and willingly submitted unto as having a lawfull power to establish what they shall please in matters of Religion as most agreeable to the word of God this submission doth not onely interesse or confirm them in this power but in the consequence and construction of it is the like interessing and confirmation in the same power of all their successors of what constitution or judgement soever they shall bee for matters of Religion Whereas for particular Independent Congregations loquendum ut vulgus their present constitution being sound safe as touching their members being all in the judgment of charity and discretion too persons of conscience and of competent understanding they are not like in an ordinary way of providence to degenerate or decline in their successors and besides in case they should their interest and authority over any of their members may at any time and under their greatest confirmations be declin'd without any considerable dammage or inconveence as was formerly shewed So that Mr. Prynnes Truth now under consideration I meane his Assertion so called is nothing so cleare but that a rationall man may deny it yea the more rationall a man is he is the more like to deny it The Antiquerist having said that the Saints think Christ alone is King over his Churches and hath not left them to Substitutes c. whereas Mr. Prynne page 6. replies thus If hee meanes it onely of matters of Faith or of internall government over the soules of men it may pass as tolerable it is as I conceive an expression which may not pass as tolerable being worse then an ordinary error or then more then an ordinary mistake He that calls any thing tolerable must needs suppose it either to be evil or inconvenient at the best Now if Mr. Prynne thinks it either evill or inconvenient that Christ should be King alone over his Churches in matters of faith and internall government of their soules it is no marvell if he seeks to interesse men in a Legislative power over his Churches in respect of their externall government it is a marvell rather that he seekes not to infringe his title and claime even to the internall government of their soules also and that hee anoints not Representative Bodies of Churches and States with authority to repeale the Articles of the old Creed and to enact another Whereas in the same page hee tells his Antiquerist that hee must renounce his oath of Allegeance his late Protestation and Nationall Vow and Covenant make foure or five Canonicall Scriptures Apocrypha with some such other mormolukies as these if he thinkes Christ to be King alone over his Churches in point of externall Ecclesiasticall government Discipline or Order I conceive this consequence of his to be inconsequent a mistake For first the Scriptures he specifies Rom 13. 1. to 6. 1 Pet. 2. 13. 14. Tit. 3. 1. 1 Tim. 2. 1 2 3 4. speake nothing of Ecclesiasticall Government nor of any subjection unto Kings or Rulers in matters of Conscience or Religion but onely of that obedience which is due unto them in civill things yea some of them the last by name not so much as of either And secondly for the Nationall vow and Covenant doubtlesse they that took and sware that did not abjure the absolute Monarchicall Independent power of Christ over his Churches nor did they swear homage or fealty to any other Lord or Lords but with a Salvo jure c. saving the rights and priviledges of the Lord Paramount Jesus Christ amongst which that is one of the most undoubted ones to have the sole dominion over the faith and consciences of men especially in things concerning the worship and service of God And thirdly and lastly for the Oath of Allegeance and late Protestation either there is nothing contained in either of these but what is of a cleare and perfect consistence with this sole dominion of Christ over the faith and consciences of men or if there be the renouncing of them will be more honourable and safe for Christians then their taking of them was or then their standing by their ingagement in that kind will be But whereas page 7. he affirmes that Christ hath delegated his Kingly power to Christian Kings Magistrates and highest civill powers as likewise bequeathed his Propheticall Office unto Ministers these certo certius are errors in the highest undermining I shall not abate wilfully and presumptuously in the reckoning the undoubted priviledges of the Throne of Jesus Christ by the very roots For are not the Offices of Christ incommunicable appropriable only unto him who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God Man and Mediator Or is Christ retired from the throne of his glory to live privatly as a Recluse to solace enjoy himselfe in some solitary angle or by-corner of heaven Or hath he eas'd his shoulder of that great burthen of the government of the world which was laid by God upon it devolving it upon the shoulders of others Where is then the promise of the Everlastingnesse of his Kingdome and of the continuance of his dominion throughout all ages And where is the prediction of his delivering up his Kingdome unto his Father if he hath delivered it up or down rather unto men Surely he means to call for it againe out of their hands before that day But if Kings and Magistrates have the Kingly Power of Christ delegated unto them they have all power given unto them both in Heaven and Earth and consequently have not onely a right and lawfullnesse of Authoritie to command as well all the Angels of Heaven as men on Earth but also to

the Parliament though I dare not gain-say it fearing lest Mr. Pryn claiming as it should seem a priviledge to make the privileges of Parliament what he pleaseth should make it a presumptuous and wilfull undermining of the undoubted priviledges of Parliament by the very roots yet I must ingenuously professe that it is a notion which I know not how to procure quarter for in my brain as yet What I may doe hereafter when the Gentleman shall bestow more cost and pains upon it to reconcile the disproportion which for the present it carrieth to my understanding I will not predetermine But none of all the Authors or Books that ever yet I was debtor unto for any grain or scruple of that knowledge wherewith God hath pleased to recompence my labour in studying ever licensed mee to call any Assembly the Representative Church of any State or Kingdome wherein there is not so much as any one Church-officer to be found Whereas he affirmes it in the same page a truth so cleare that no rationall man good Christian or subject can deny it that the whole representative Church and State of England in Parliament have sufficient authoritie by Gods law to over-rule and bind all or any particular members or congregations of it as well as the major part of an Independent Congregation power to over-vote and rule the lesser part and to order yea bind any of their particular members though for the danger aforesaid it be not perhaps so safe for me simply to call the latter assertion touching the comparison between the two powers either an error or a mistake yet that this assertion should be a truth so royally qualified that no reasonable man or good Christian can deny it seemes not so reasonable The reason is because in an Independent congregation all the members by free and voluntary consent have submitted themselves to the regulation and order of the whole body or which is the same of the major part of it and therefore this body having received a lawfull power in a lawfull way for the reiglement of her respective members may lawfully exercise it according to the tenor and true intent of the delegation of it whereas there are many thousands in the Church and State of England who by Mr. Prynnes owne acknowledgement p. 24. line 3. 4. have not given any such consent for their regulation in matters Ecclesiasticall and which concerne Religion unto the Parliament yea and there are many thousands more besides those which hee there describes and intends who will not owne any such Resignation Therefore the difference between the one case and the other is very broad and no lesse considerable so that a reasonable man may without any dispraise to his Reason and a good Christian without any prejudice to the goodnesse of his Christianity demurre a while before judgement upon the case Besides there is no question or ground of doubting but that a good Christian may lawfully and with a good conscience submit himself unto a godly able and faithfull Pastor together with his people whom he hath good ground to judge godly and faithfull also as well for their edification in their most holy faith as for the inspection regulation of themselves in matters of life and conversation But whether it be lawfull to submit to any man or any rank or association of men especially of men of whose sufficiencie and faith fulnesse in the things of God and Jesus Christ we have either but a very slender or no testimony at all yea whose persons are altogether unknowne to us in matters which concerne the worship and service of God cannot but be a question and that of great moment to all considering and conscientious men who are not already satisfied in the negative part of it The Apostles doe not onely permit but give it in charge to Christians in Church-fellowship to submit themselves one to another in the feare of God Eph. 5. 21. i. to be yeelding and tractable easie to be intreated one by another And submit your selves every man unto another 1 Pet. 5. 5. If one man ought to submit to another man in this kind much more ought one to submit unto many and most of all to the whole society of Saints whereof he is a member But as touching submission unto any man or men whatsoever in matters which concerne the worship and service of God the Scripture is so farre from imposing this upon any man that it imposeth the contrary and that with great Emphasis and weight Call no man your father upon earth is our Saviours owne charge Matth. 23. 9. for one is your Father which is in heaven And in the preceding verse Be ye not called Rabbi for one is your master or Doctor even Christ and ye all are brethren And the Apostle 1 Cor. 7. 23. Yee are bought with a price be ye not the servants of men He speakes of a servility or subjection in judgement and conscience to the decisions or determinations of men in matters of conscience and Religion And whosoever doth submit or subject himselfe in things of this nature unto any man or men whosoever that is resigne up his judgement and conscience to be ordered obliged and tied by the meere authority or magistery of men in such things Call's men Fathers on earth makes himselfe a servant unto men and consequently makes himself a transgressor both of our Saviours injunction and charge in this behalf and of his Apostles also Thirdly he that submits himselfe to a Pastor and Congregation of Saints for such regulation as hath been mentioned is presumed to know and understand before-hand of what spirit both the one and the other are how matters appertaining to the worship and service of God are carried managed and ordered amongst them so that he may with the full concurrence and consent of his judgement and conscience submit himselfe unto them as touching communion with them in their practice in this kind but what any Synod Assembly or Court of men will determine or enjoyn in such things cannot be known before-hand by any man and consequently no man can with a good conscience submit himselfe unto them as touching any of their determinations or decisions untill he first understands what they are and whether according to the light and judicature of his conscience agreeable to the word of God Fourthly in case a Pastor and Congregation shall afterwards so farre alter and vary from that posture either in Doctrine or practice wherein they stood when a man first joyned and submitted himselfe unto them that hee cannot with the peace of his conscience walk any longer with them hee may with leave obtained or otherwise if by request it cannot be obtained withdraw himselfe without any inconvenience from their communion and incorporate himselfe elswhere as he judgeth best This may bee done with farre lesse trouble and inconvenience then ordinarily a man upon a dislike of his Parochial Pastor can remove out of one Parish

Innocency and Truth Triumphing together OR The latter part of an ANSWER to the back-part of a DISCOURSE lately published By William Prynne Esquire called A FULL REPLY c. Beginning at the foot of p. 17. of the said Discourse with this title or superscription Certain brief Animadversions on Mr. JOHN GOODWINS Theomachia Wherein the Argumentative part of the said Animadversions is examined Together with some few Animadversions upon some former Passages in the said REPLY Qui innocentiae debitum servat poenitentiae non solvit usuram Chrysost Nolo mihi imperet ille vel ille qui me opprimere potest docere non potest Hieronymus Non est delicata in Deum secura confessio qui in me credit debet sanguinem suum sundere ibidem Ignosci potuit simpliciter errantibus post inspirationem verò revelationem factam sine ignorantiae veniâ peccatur Cypr. Ep. Pios hoc nomen titulum in mundo oportet gerere quòd seditiosi ac schismatici ac infinitorum malorum authores sunt Lutherus Gal. c. 5. Not that wee have dominion over your faith but are helpers of your joy 2 Cor. 1. 24. Let us therefore as many as be perfect be thus minded and if any of yee be otherwise minded God shall reveale even the same unto you Phil. 3. 15. Licensed and Printed according to Order LONDON Printed by Matthew Simmons for Henry Overton at his Shop in Popes-head-Alley 1645. To the unpartiall and unprejudic'd READER AM I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth saith the first-born and yet the last born also of the Apostles to his Galathians The interrogation is a constructive assertion of two things First that to speak the truth in some cases is very opportune to sinister interpretation and apt to represent the speaker as a man of no benevolous or friendly comportance with those to whom he so speaketh The reason whereof seems to be this Errors and misprisions are many times very indulgent and bountifull to the flesh and he that incounters men under such injoyments with the truth seems to them rather to strike at these injoyments then at the error or opinion by whose consent they have first taken and still keep possession of them Themselves esteeming the opinion of small value as well it deserves save onely in reference to those carnall gratifications are very apt to conceive that neither doe others so much minde that or take offence at that as at those priviledges or accommodations which they injoy by it and this they judge to be a straine of an hostile inclination Secondly The prementioned Interrogation supposeth that no manifestation or speaking of what truth soever unto men simply as such is any argument at all of want of affection and that in the highest unto them The reason is because there is no Truth which being imbraced and honoured with sutable practise but will give farre better wages and consideration to her servants in due time then any error whatsoever Yea the truth is that the greater breach or spoyle a Truth makes in any mans worldly possessions or enjoyments it is of so much the richer and the more advantagious concernment unto him and will honour him the more abundantly It is the manner and guise of divine truth to pull downe houses built with firres and brick and to build them up againe with cedars and hewne stones He that deals much either in the discoverie or recovery rather or inforcement of such truths which are opposed in the world not onely by errors and contrary misprisons but by secular accommodations also as of honour power riches pleasures or the like takes a very direct course to make himself conformable to the image of his Saviour who being so great a Benefactor to the world was yet numbred amongst Transgressors To attempt the casting downe of such imagination which do not onely exalt themselves in the minds of men but contribute also to the exaltation of men themselves in the world be they never so extravagant or eccentricall to the truth is an undertaking of almost as doubtfull a presage as they that speak Proverbs are wont to represent by the taking a Lion by the beard or an Elephant by the tooth And did not the God of Truth umpire and that with an high hand amongst the thoughts and counsells of the sons of men and put many a by ingredient into his providence of soveraign reliefe to those whose hearts are set and hands lift up to magnifie such Truths which being advanced are like to doe justice in the world and to reduce all usurpations and unrighteous detainments amongst men the Earth would not be able to beare the words of such men and the world soone become too hot a climate for Truths of such a complexion It is a matter of somewhat a sad contemplation and yet in part delightfull also viz. as those Oracles of Heaven the Scriptures are mightily asserted and vindicated like themselves thereby to see what commotions tumults and combustions are presently raised in the minds and spirits of men upon the birth or resurrection rather of any Truth into the world concerning which there is the least jealousie that in case it should reigne it would rack them from off the lees of their old customes or compell them to a restitution of what they have unjustly taken and peaceably injoyed for a long time or any wayes expose them to any outward sufferings or disaccommodations in the world to see what hurryings up and downe what ingaging of parties what inquiring after parts and abilities what rembling over Authors old and new what incensing of Authoritie what streynings of wits and consciences what slighting of solid arguments what evading substantiall and cleare interpretations of Scripture what magnifying of those that are streined and farre fetch'd in their stead what casting abroad of calumnies and reproaches what incrustations and misrepresentations of opinions sayings practises actions what shiftings what blendings what colourings what pretendings what disgracings yea what conventings what persecutions what evill intreatings of men what appealings to fire sword prisons banishment confiscations and all to turn a beam of light and glorie into darknes shame to keep a new-born Truth from ruling over them As soone as Herod the King heard that Christ was borne and that wise men were come from the East to worship him inquiring after him as a King the Text saith that he was troubled and all Jerusalem with him and how unnaturall and bloudy a design was there presently put in execution to prevent the reigning of him that was but now borne into the world That one who yet was their lawfull King might not reigne over them many poore infants innocents altogether in this were not suffered to live amongst them This Scene also was acted in Germany when God first made Luther as life from the dead vnto the Doctrine of free justification and remission of sins a Doctrine not so