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A85327 Faith in five fundamentall principles, strongly fortified against the diabolical, atheisticall, blasphemous batteries of these times Serving for the conviction of opposers, the satisfaction of doubters, and the confirmation of believers. In a conference which a godly independent minister and a godly Presbyterian minister had with a doubting Christian. By E.F. a seeker of the truth. Fisher, Edward, fl. 1627-1655. 1650 (1650) Wing F993; Thomason E1375_2; ESTC R209221 23,410 56

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some extraordinary act in their life time worthy of eternall fame and by their Tombs and Sepulchers which they build to make their names as eternall as they can and to what end should man desire this if there were not a possibility of attaining it nay we may assure our selves that God would not have implanted this naturall desire in man but that there is such a thing attainable by man for if he had plainted in man a desire of a thing unattainable he had dealt worse with man then he hath done with beasts who neither know nor believe nor desire any such thing from whence we may also conclude that our soules being created immortall they doe well conceive of an immortality or an everlastingnesse without end Fourthly I would beseech you seriously to consider that the brute beasts do feare a present evill of punishment in this life only but man naturally doth fear the evill of punishment after the end of his life for there is a natural impression stamped in man that vice must be punished after death as it is evident in that there was never any nation so barbarous but they were observed naturally to put a difference betwixt vertue vice so far forth as they knew it and so to have joy and content when they practised vertue and to have feare and sorrow when they practised vice and that neither for hope of reward nor feare of punishment in this life And I dare boldly say that if a Man who hath committed some gross sin should be by reason of the secrecy in the committing of it be confident that it should never be so much as known to any one man woman or childe in the time of this life yet could he not be without feare whensoever he thought upon it And what though some Epicures among us are for the present so swallowed up in the pleasures of this life that they have no thought of being called to an account for their sinnes either in this life or at the end of this life yet when did you ever hear of any such man that hath not at the houre of death beene afraid of the judgement to come for mine own part I am confident that there was never any man that when he apprehended death neare approcahing could then perswade his Conscience that his Soul was mortall and should dye with his body but then though it may be too late hee begins to think within himselfe what shall become of his soul and could then with all his heart wish that he had lived the life of the righteous and why is all this but because man naturally doth beleeve that his soul is immortall and shall come to judgement Fifthly I would also beseech you seriously to consider that although mans body I meane his sensuall appeitite can with the sensual appetite of beasts find rest and content inearthly things here below yet is his soule in a perpetuall motion and can finde no rest nor content in any earthly thing and that because it hath a secret longing desire after God though it know it not for as a childe that is new borne doth by a naturall instinct in strength of desire crye after the dugg and yet knoweth not what it wanteth even so mans poore soul doth desire God and yet through the blindnesse of his understanding it knoweth not what it wanteth and like as if an ignorant nurse should offer the childe such food as its tender age is not capable of receiving it would not be contented but would still in strength of desire crye after the dugg even so though a man should offer his soul a world of Creatures yet will they not content it for I dare boldly say that no earthly-minded man ever met with so much profits pleasures or honours in this world as did fully content and satisfie him indeed mans sensuall appetite may feed upon earthly delights and be as it were filled with the creature but what can fill mans minde not all the world for t is certain saith a learned and godly Mr. Boulton discourse true hap Author though one man were not onely crowned with the soverainty of all the Kingdoms of the earth but besides were made commander of the motions of the Sun and the glory of the Stars yet the restlesse eye of mans unsatisfied understanding would peepe and pry beyond the heavens for some hidden excellency and supposed felicity which the whole compasse of this created World cannot yield so unquenchable is the thirst of mans soul untill it bath it selfe in the River of life and the immeasurable Ocean of goodnesse viz untill it lives in him and of him in whom all things doe live and by whom all things are upheld Now then as in naturall things we may know by their motion where is their resting place even so by the motion of mans soul toward God we may certainly conclude that God is the resting place thereof which indeed is a sure testimony that mans soul is an immortall essence and so shall never dye Sixthly and lastly I would pray you to consider that although mans body may decay dye and perish if it want corporall food yet will not his soul for what can make the soul decay dye and perish can want of corporall food No for it can skil to feed upon things above the world for the minde of man is so nimble that even by way of view it feedeth upon all things take from it sensible things and the things of the understanning remaine with it stil bereave it of al earthly things and the heavenly remaine abundantly and then it feedeth at greatest ease and makes best cheare agreeable to its owne nature th● plaine truth is the soul lives best when it is most freest from all things in this world it is well known that those who want their eye-sight have their mindes most apt to understand and most firme to remember because their eyes are not busied about the beholding of outward objects and when we shut our eyes then are we best able to conceive of things spirituall in our minds yea and if we consider the matter well we shall finde that when our sences are most quenched then doth our soule most labour to surmount her selfe and the more the body decreaseth the more doth the soul increase as it is commonly seene when a man draweth nigh unto death the soul hath then the most care of her owne eternall welfare in so much as it hath been observed that when a body hath been very far spent bare consumed and withered so that whosoever looks upon it sees nothing but earth yet such a man hath been heard speake most spiritually and heavenly Now when a man doth behold such a lively soul in so weak and withered a body may hee not say as it is said of hatching of Chickens the shell is broken but there commeth forth a Chicken may he not hence conclude that for the soul to continue in its being it hath no
as all the wisdome and power of man could never do it As for example If you do but consider the excellent subordination of the creatures you shall see a wonderfull order if you do but cast your eyes downward and behold the lowest creature in the earth you shall perceive that when it is wet with the dew of heaven it nourisheth the grasse and the grasse serveth to nourish the beasts and the beasts they do nourish and feed man whereby you may perceive the combination and connexion that is amongst these creatures and here you may see an order from one thing to another and all to one end all to serve man and must you not then think and conclude That man is to serve him who is the Author of this Order and that is the very same whom wee call God And if you doe but cast your eyes upward you shall perceive such an heaven so beset and furnished with Sunne Moon and Stars as no man could make And if you look into the fabrick of the world you shall in your apprehension behold one thing contrary to another the water contrary to the fire and drynesse contrary to moysture and the nature of contraries is one to destroy another and yet you may see these brought to such a comely agreement that they doe not intrench or usurpe one upon another but match together in the composing of many things The Earth you know is heavy and massie and very huge in bignesse and there is no solid thing to uphold it nor piller to support it for it is founded upon the waters and yet notwithstanding it is setled or rather hung as a Ball in the Ayre and stirreth not a whit The Sea likewise doth continually threaten the Earth and the nature thereof is to overflow the same and yet we see it passeth not its bounds now all these things considered must it not needs follow that there is a great and soveraigne power which over-ruleth all these things who maketh them thus to keepe their order and who can that be but onely the God of Order Thus my loving friend you see that the whole world with all that is therein is a plaine booke laid open to all men yea even for Children to reade and as it were to spell God therein the consideration whereof caused one learned man Avicen to say that he who acknowledgeth not a God-head is void not onely of reason but also of sence yea and caused another learned man to Duples say that all men ought to be forbidden to call the being of a God into question upon paine of being men any more Many other lively Characters of the Godhead stamped upon the Creatures might be held forth for the further confirmation thereof but hoping that by this time you are convinced of this truth I will proceed no further therein at this time Chris Indeed Sir I am so convinced for I know not how to contradict what you have said and therefore I pray you proceed to the next point namely to prove that the Scriptures are the word of God Touching the Scriptures being the word of God Pres WEll Sir in my judgement you have done exceeding well touching this point And I hope not onely done him good but me also for though I doe beleeve that there is a God yet I hope the hearing of these your arguments will be a meanes to strengthen this my beliefe and confirme this conclusion and adde more to this my assent But now Sir to the intent that he may perceive that those whom they call Independent Ministers and those whom they call Presbyterian Ministers doe not differ but agree in these Fundamentals let me crave leave to speake to the next point Inde With a very good will Sir I beseech you doe Pres Well then my good friend I would pray you and beseech you as you tender the everlasting welfare of your soule to be perswaded in your heart that those Bookes which are called the Scriptures are the only word of that one God which Mr. B. hath I hope throughly convinced you of and that they are that onely writing whereby he hath shewed even from the beginning after what manner hee will be worshipped and served 1 And that I may with arguments also convince you of this truth I doe in the first place beseech you seriously to consider that these Bookes are more ancient then any History in the world I tell you truely that all Historians have beene forced to confesse that the writings of Moses w●re before all other writings and that the very latest of our old Testament writers are of more antiquity then the ancientest Authors amongst the Heathen Have you not read how Eupolimus in his booke of the Kings of Iury saith that Moses taught Letters to the Iewes the Iewes to the Venetians and the Venetians to the Greeks also Diodorus of Sicilia saith that hee understood by the Egyptians that Moses was the first Law-giver of all now the learned doe agree that the antiquity of the Scripture doth shew and prove both the trunesse and divineness of them 2 And I would also in the second place intreat you seriously to consider that the majesty and authority of the great God of heaven doth wonderfully appeare in the manner of the delivery of his minde in these bookes no proeme is there used but thus saith the Lord no reason is rendred but I the Lord have spoken it So that they doe require credit to be given to the matter onely because the Lord hath spoken it the duty of every man is therein required without respect of person the King and Ruler is there told his duty aswell as the Subject judgements are there threatned against the Rich man as well as against the Poore there are duties prescribed to the inner man as well as to the out-ward man they require obedience in heart as well as obedience in life they prescribe lawes to the thoughts to which no man can pierce they forbid lusting and coveting which no writing of man doth Now who can prescribe lawes to the heart and thoughts but onely he who knowes the heart and thoughts and that is God onely And in the third place I would also be-beseech you seriously to consider that the matter contained in those bookes which wee call the Scriptures doth wholly tend to the exalting of God and debacing of man the power wisedome justice and mercy of God is abundantly set forth in these bookes and so is mans vanity and weaknesse yea the greatest sinnes and foulest faults of Gods own people are there left upon record yea the penmen of these bookes were so void of all carnall affections in their writings that they neither spared themselves nor their dearest and nearest friends in their writings an example whereof you may see in Moses Numb 27. 13. 14. Deut. 32. 51. Exod. 6. 20. Num. 12. 1. And also in the Apostle Paul 1 Tim. 1. 13. from whence we may truely frame this