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earth_n body_n heaven_n soul_n 16,244 5 5.2792 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A27112 Certamen religiosum, or, A conference between the late King of England and the late Lord Marquesse of Worcester concerning religion together with a vindication of the Protestant cause from the pretences of the Marquesse his last papers which the necessity of the King's affaires denyed him oportunity to answer. Bayly, Thomas, d. 1657? 1651 (1651) Wing B1507; ESTC R23673 451,978 466

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great_a benefit_n by_o he_o even_o of_o deliverance_n from_o the_o captivity_n of_o sin_n and_o satan_n estius_n in_o his_o exposition_n of_o the_o hard_a place_n of_o scripture_n treat_v of_o this_o place_n say_v indeed_o that_o many_o understand_v it_o of_o christ_n descend_v into_o hell_n and_o deliver_v thence_o the_o soul_n of_o the_o just_a but_o 11._o withal_o he_o tell_v we_o that_o it_o be_v diverse_o expound_v and_o that_o one_o exposition_n be_v that_o christ_n by_o the_o merit_n of_o his_o passion_n do_v free_a all_o the_o elect_n who_o be_v hold_v captive_a under_o the_o power_n of_o the_o devil_n and_o thus_o he_o say_v the_o pit_n wherein_o be_v no_o water_n be_v the_o captivity_n of_o mankind_n in_o which_o so_o long_o as_o it_o be_v hold_v it_o be_v empty_a of_o the_o water_n of_o divine_a grace_n diverse_a romanist_n do_v doway-translation_n cite_v hierome_n as_o interpret_n this_o place_n of_o the_o prophet_n zachary_n of_o limbus_n patrum_fw-la and_o of_o christ_n 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father_n affirm_v as_o much_o saint_z hier._n in_o 4._o ad_fw-la ephes_n saint_n greg._n lib._n 13._o moral_a cap._n 20._o saint_n aug_n in_o psal_n 3._o 7._o ver_fw-la 1._o we_o hold_v purgatory_n fire_n where_o satisfaction_n shall_v be_v make_v for_o sin_n after_o death_n you_o deny_v it_o we_o have_v scripture_n for_o it_o 1_o cor._n 3._o 13._o 15._o the_o fire_n shall_v try_v every_o man_n work_n of_o what_o sort_n it_o be_v if_o any_o man_n work_n shall_v be_v burn_v he_o shall_v suffer_v loss_n but_o he_o himself_o shall_v be_v save_v yet_o so_o as_o by_o fire_n exod._n last_o we_o hold_v extreme_a unction_n to_o be_v a_o sacrament_n you_o neither_o hold_v it_o to_o be_v a_o sacrament_n neither_o do_v you_o practise_v it_o as_o a_o duty_n we_o have_v scripture_n for_o it_o james_z 5._o 13._o be_v any_o sick_a among_o you_o let_v he_o call_v the_o elder_n of_o the_o church_n and_o let_v they_o pray_v over_o he_o anoint_v he_o with_o oil_n in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o lord_n and_o the_o prayer_n of_o faith_n shall_v save_v the_o sick_a and_o the_o lord_n shall_v raise_v he_o up_o and_o if_o he_o have_v commit_v sin_n they_o shall_v be_v forgive_v he_o neither_o any_o nor_o all_o the_o sacrament_n be_v or_o can_v be_v more_o effectual_a man_n good_a nor_o more_o substantial_a in_o matter_n nor_o more_o exquisite_a in_o form_n nor_o more_o punctual_a in_o designation_n of_o its_o ministry_n other_o sacrament_n be_v bound_v within_o the_o limit_n of_o the_o soul_n only_o good_a this_o extend_v itself_o to_o the_o good_a both_o of_o soul_n and_o body_n he_o shall_v recover_v from_o his_o sickness_n and_o his_o sin_n shall_v be_v forgive_v he_o and_o yet_o it_o be_v both_o leave_v out_o in_o your_o practice_n and_o
that_o if_o not_o through_o wantonness_n but_o through_o weakness_n they_o be_v force_v to_o marry_v the_o apostle_n will_v have_v they_o to_o do_v it_o rather_o than_o to_o do_v worse_o viz._n burn_v with_o lust_n and_o commit_v fornication_n for_o whereas_o the_o same_o author_n say_v it_o be_v not_o better_o for_o such_o as_o have_v vow_v contineney_n to_o 9_o marry_v then_o to_o burn_v this_o be_v nothing_o else_o but_o a_o flat_a contradict_v of_o the_o apostle_n or_o at_o least_o a_o contradict_v of_o that_o rule_n we_o must_v not_o distinguish_v where_o the_o law_n do_v ibid._n not_o distinguish_v and_o we_o find_v in_o their_o own_o canon_n that_o if_o widow_n do_v profess_v continency_n yet_o a_o snare_n be_v not_o to_o be_v cast_v upon_o they_o to_o wit_n as_o the_o gloss_n do_v expound_v it_o by_o separate_v they_o from_o their_o husband_n if_o they_o do_v marry_v or_o by_o forbid_v they_o precise_o to_o marry_v another_o canon_n also_o which_o quotquot_fw-la they_o have_v enjoin_v no_o more_o but_o this_o that_o if_o such_o as_o profess_v virginity_n do_v afterward_o marry_v they_o shall_v be_v rank_v among_o those_o that_o do_v marry_v the_o second_o time_n viz._n after_o the_o death_n of_o the_o first_o yoke_n fellow_n which_o marriage_n the_o scripture_n do_v clear_o allow_v rom._n 7._o 2_o 3._o and_o 1_o cor._n 7._o 39_o neither_o do_v any_o orthodox_n writer_n ever_o condemn_v it_o their_o canon-law_n indeed_o debar_v those_o that_o be_v twice_o marry_v from_o be_v priest_n 3._o ground_v upon_o the_o apostle_n 1_o tim._n 3._o 2._o and_o titus_n 1._o 6._o which_o place_v their_o own_o cardinal_n cajetan_n do_v yet_o interpret_v otherwise_o but_o yet_o grant_v that_o such_o do_v not_o sin_n they_o grant_v also_o that_o if_o any_o marry_v after_o a_o simple_a vow_n of_o continency_n the_o marriage_n do_v stand_v good_a and_o be_v not_o to_o be_v dissolve_v for_o this_o they_o have_v a_o canon_n out_o of_o austin_n which_o run_v thus_o some_o say_v that_o they_o vir_fw-la that_o marry_v after_o a_o vow_n be_v adulterer_n but_o i_o say_v unto_o you_o that_o they_o that_o divide_v such_o do_v sin_n grievous_o and_o another_o out_o of_o theodorus_n thus_o if_o a_o man_n have_v a_o simple_a vow_n of_o virginity_n join_v himself_o to_o a_o wife_n let_v he_o not_o afterward_o put_v she_o away_o but_o let_v he_o do_v penance_n three_o year_n and_o so_o estius_n confess_v that_o we_o never_o 12._o read_v in_o ancient_a writer_n that_o if_o widow_n who_o vow_v continency_n do_v marry_v their_o marriage_n be_v void_a and_o of_o none_o effect_n for_o say_v he_o their_o vow_n be_v not_o solemn_a but_o i_o have_v show_v before_o that_o the_o distinction_n of_o simple_a and_o solemn_a vow_n have_v no_o ground_n in_o scripture_n and_o that_o in_o respect_n of_o god_n a_o simple_a vow_n do_v bind_v as_o much_o as_o a_o solemn_a and_o beside_o if_o as_o they_o allege_v and_o cite_v some_o of_o the_o ancients_n also_o for_o it_o one_o 24._o have_v vow_a continency_n whether_o solemn_o or_o simple_o be_v marry_v unto_o christ_n and_o therefore_o may_v much_o less_o marry_v another_o than_o one_o that_o be_v already_o marry_v to_o a_o mortal_a man_n then_o sure_o the_o marriage_n of_o such_o shall_v much_o rather_o be_v judge_v adultery_n and_o be_v dissolve_v than_o the_o marriage_n of_o those_o who_o marry_v again_o when_o they_o be_v already_o marry_v yet_o bellarmine_n go_v further_a and_o acknowledge_v 34._o that_o many_o prime_a writer_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n as_o scotus_n paludanus_n and_o cajetane_v and_o general_o as_o panormitan_n do_v relate_v all_o the_o canonist_n affirm_v that_o only_o by_o ecclesiastical_a right_a marriage_n make_v after_o a_o solemn_a vow_n be_v of_o no_o force_n and_o this_o opinion_n he_o grant_v to_o be_v probable_a so_o then_o by_o their_o own_o confession_n it_o may_v appear_v that_o there_o be_v no_o law_n of_o god_n against_o it_o but_o that_o such_o as_o have_v vow_v continency_n shall_v marry_v if_o they_o be_v not_o able_a to_o perform_v what_o they_o have_v vow_v and_o this_o may_v suffice_v for_o this_o point_n the_o marquesse_n go_v on_o thus_o we_o say_v christ_n descend_v into_o hell_n 72._o and_o deliver_v thence_o the_o soul_n of_o the_o father_n you_o deny_v it_o we_o have_v scripture_n for_o it_o viz._n ephes_n 4._o 8._o when_o he_o ascend_v up_o on_o high_a he_o lead_v captivity_n captive_a etc._n etc._n descend_v first_o into_o the_o low_a part_n of_o the_o earth_n this_o low_a part_n of_o the_o earth_n can_v not_o be_v a_o grave_n for_o that_o be_v the_o upper_a part_n nor_o can_v it_o have_v be_v the_o place_n of_o the_o damn_a for_o the_o devil_n will_v have_v be_v bring_v again_o into_o heaven_n more_o clear_o act_v 2._o 27._o thou_o will_v not_o leave_v my_o soul_n in_o hell_n neither_o will_v thou_o suffer_v thy_o holy_a one_o to_o see_v corruption_n there_o be_v hell_n for_o his_o soul_n for_o a_o time_n and_o the_o grave_n for_o his_o body_n for_o a_o while_n plain_a yet_o 1_o pet._n 3._o 18_o 19_o be_v put_v to_o death_n in_o the_o flesh_n but_o quicken_v by_o the_o spirit_n by_o which_o also_o he_o go_v and_o preach_v unto_o the_o spirit_n in_o prison_n this_o prison_n can_v be_v heaven_n nor_o hell_n as_o it_o be_v the_o place_n of_o the_o damn_a nor_o the_o grave_n as_o it_o be_v the_o place_n of_o rest_n therefore_o it_o must_v be_v as_o s._n aug._n epist_n 99_o ad_fw-la evod._n say_v some_o three_o place_n which_o three_o place_n the_o father_n have_v call_v limbus_n patrum_fw-la also_o zach._n 9_o 11._o as_o for_o thou_o also_o by_o the_o blood_n of_o thy_o covenant_n i_o have_v send_v forth_o thy_o prisoner_n out_o of_o the_o pit_n wherein_o be_v fault_n no_o water_n by_o this_o pit_n can_v not_o be_v mean_v the_o place_n of_o the_o damn_a for_o they_o have_v no_o share_n in_o the_o covenant_n neither_o be_v they_o christ_n prisoner_n but_o the_o devil_n neither_o can_v this_o pit_n be_v the_o grave_n because_o christ_n grave_n be_v a_o new_a pit_n where_o never_o any_o be_v lay_v before_o the_o father_n affirm_v as_o much_o s._n hieron_n in_o 4._o ad_fw-la ephes_n s._n greg._n l._n 13._o moral_a c._n 20._o s._n aug._n in_o psal_n 37._o 1._o answ_n that_o christ_n do_v descend_v into_o hell_n in_o that_o sense_n as_o they_o of_o the_o church_n of_o some_o do_v hold_v viz._n into_o a_o region_n of_o hell_n call_v limbus_n patrum_fw-la to_o deliver_v the_o faithful_a thence_o that_o live_v and_o die_v under_o the_o old_a testament_n this_o protestant_n deny_v and_o they_o have_v just_a cause_n to_o deny_v it_o for_o the_o scripture_n do_v not_o show_v we_o any_o such_o hell_n as_o this_o which_o they_o speak_v of_o much_o less_o that_o christ_n do_v descend_v into_o it_o 1._o the_o faithful_a that_o be_v before_o christ_n do_v enjoy_v the_o benefit_n of_o he_o as_o well_o as_o they_o that_o be_v since_o his_o come_n we_o believe_v say_v peter_n that_o through_o the_o grace_n of_o our_o lord_n jesus_n christ_n we_o shall_v be_v save_v even_o as_o they_o act_n 15._o 11._o therefore_o they_o be_v save_v by_o christ_n as_o well_o as_o we_o now_o be_v save_v by_o he_o and_o consequent_o the_o faithful_a then_o through_o christ_n do_v go_v to_o heaven_n as_o well_o as_o now_o they_o do_v 2._o it_o be_v say_v of_o the_o faithful_a of_o the_o old_a testament_n that_o they_o confess_v that_o they_o be_v stranger_n and_o pilgrim_n upon_o the_o earth_n heb._n 11._o 13._o and_o that_o they_o do_v seek_v a_o country_n v_o 14._o not_o a_o earthly_a country_n but_o a_o better_a country_n that_o be_v a_o heavenly_a and_o that_o god_n do_v prepare_v for_o they_o a_o city_n v_o 16._o 3._o abraham_n bosom_n as_o the_o place_n be_v call_v where_o the_o soul_n of_o the_o saint_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n be_v be_v so_o describe_v in_o the_o scripture_n as_o that_o it_o can_v be_v no_o such_o place_n as_o they_o call_v limbus_n patrum_fw-la for_o 1._o the_o soul_n of_o lazarus_n be_v carry_v thither_o by_o angel_n and_o therefore_o it_o shall_v rather_o be_v heaven_n then_o hell_n 2._o it_o be_v a_o place_n of_o comfort_n luke_n 16._o 25._o but_o 99_o austin_n can_v not_o find_v he_o say_v with_o all_o his_o search_n where_o the_o scripture_n do_v make_v hell_n to_o be_v any_o place_n of_o comfort_n and_o he_o think_v this_o a_o good_a argument_n why_o abraham_n bosom_n can_v not_o be_v hell_n 3._o there_o be_v a_o great_a gulf_n fix_v betwixt_o the_o place_n where_o lazarus_n be_v viz._n abraham_n bosom_n and_o the_o place_n where_o the_o rich_a man_n be_v in_o torment_n luke_n 16._o 26._o and_o hence_o also_o 99_o austin_n infer_v that_o abraham_n bosom_n
shall_v we_o not_o say_v repentance_n be_v a_o sacrament_n if_o christ_n bless_v little_a child_n and_o say_v suffer_v they_o to_o come_v unto_o i_o and_o forbid_v they_o not_o shall_v we_o not_o say_v that_o such_o confirmation_n be_v a_o sacrament_n true_o i_o do_v not_o understand_v their_o meaning_n they_o have_v take_v away_o five_o which_o five_o either_o by_o god_n or_o christ_n or_o the_o holy_a ghost_n who_o be_v all_o one_o be_v institute_v and_o yet_o they_o say_v they_o be_v not_o sacrament_n because_o they_o be_v not_o institute_v by_o christ_n and_o the_o two_o that_o be_v leave_v viz._n baptism_n and_o the_o lord_n supper_n for_o the_o first_o you_o hold_v it_o necessary_a to_o salvation_n and_o for_o the_o second_o you_o do_v not_o admit_v the_o real_a presence_n so_o that_o of_o the_o two_o remain_v you_o have_v take_v away_o the_o necessity_n of_o the_o one_o and_o the_o reality_n of_o the_o other_o so_o farewell_n all_o now_o for_o purgatory_n i_o do_v believe_v we_o have_v as_o good_a ground_n for_o it_o out_o of_o this_o place_n of_o scripture_n viz._n he_o shall_v be_v purge_v yet_o so_o as_o if_o it_o be_v by_o fire_n as_o you_o can_v prove_v a_o hell_n out_o of_o this_o place_n of_o scripture_n he_o shall_v be_v cast_v into_o utter_a darkness_n and_o into_o the_o lake_n that_o burn_v with_o fire_n and_o brimstone_n where_o shall_v be_v weep_v and_o gnash_n of_o tooth_n neither_o can_v you_o make_v more_o exception_n to_o our_o inference_n out_o of_o this_o place_n of_o scripture_n to_o prove_v purgatory_n than_o the_o atheist_n if_o wit_n may_v be_v permit_v to_o roam_v in_o such_o thing_n as_o these_o once_o settle_v and_o believe_v general_o will_v find_v ground_n enough_o to_o quarrel_v at_o your_o burn_a lake_n and_o the_o vain_a philosopher_n contradiction_n enough_o in_o the_o description_n of_o the_o effect_n of_o those_o hellish_a torment_n viz._n weep_v and_o gnash_n of_o tooth_n the_o one_o have_v its_o procedure_n from_o heat_n the_o other_o from_o cold_a which_o be_v mere_a contradiction_n and_o therefore_o fabulous_a take_v heed_n we_o do_v not_o take_v away_o hell_n in_o remove_v of_o purgatory_n you_o see_v not_o how_o your_o laugh_v at_o purgatory_n have_v cause_v such_o laugh_n at_o hell_n and_o devil_n until_o at_o last_o you_o shall_v see_v they_o bid_v the_o heaven_n come_v down_o and_o pluck_v the_o almighty_a out_o of_o his_o throne_n if_o a_o text_n of_o scripture_n with_o the_o church_n exposition_n be_v not_o sufficient_a for_o a_o man_n to_o rest_n both_o his_o science_n and_o conscience_n upon_o i_o know_v not_o where_o it_o will_v find_v a_o rest_a place_n it_o may_v shoot_v at_o random_n but_o never_o take_v so_o right_a a_o aim_n and_o for_o the_o silver_n hook_v you_o talk_v of_o i_o do_v not_o justify_v the_o abuse_n of_o any_o i_o know_v there_o be_v a_o great_a difference_n between_o the_o court_n of_o rome_n and_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o if_o these_o error_n be_v in_o the_o church_n itself_o yet_o the_o tare_n must_v not_o be_v hasty_o pluck_v out_o of_o the_o field_n of_o the_o church_n lest_o the_o wheat_n be_v pluck_v up_o with_o it_o now_o for_o our_o pray_v to_o saint_n there_o be_v no_o body_n that_o pray_v to_o any_o saint_n otherwise_o then_o as_o we_o on_o earth_n desire_v the_o benefit_n of_o one_o another_o prayer_n we_o do_v not_o believe_v that_o they_o can_v help_v we_o of_o themselves_o or_o that_o they_o have_v power_n to_o forgive_v sin_n but_o we_o believe_v that_o they_o be_v near_o to_o god_n his_o favour_n and_o more_o dear_a unto_o he_o and_o therefore_o we_o believe_v that_o he_o will_v hear_v they_o with_o or_o for_o we_o soon_o than_o he_o will_v hear_v we_o when_o we_o pray_v upon_o our_o own_o account_n as_o we_o desire_v the_o prayer_n of_o some_o good_a and_o holy_a man_n who_o we_o believe_v to_o be_v so_o hope_v it_o will_v be_v a_o benefit_n unto_o we_o all_o that_o can_v be_v say_v against_o it_o be_v that_o they_o do_v not_o hear_v we_o i_o will_v not_o trouble_v your_o majesty_n with_o the_o schoolmen_n speculum_fw-la creatoris_fw-la but_o i_o shall_v desire_v to_o be_v plain_a when_o there_o be_v joy_n in_o heaven_n over_o every_o sinner_n that_o repent_v do_v you_o think_v that_o the_o saint_n which_o be_v there_o be_v ignorant_a of_o the_o occasion_n of_o that_o joy_n or_o do_v they_o rejoice_v at_o they_o know_v not_o what_o if_o the_o saint_n in_o heaven_n do_v cry_v how_o long_a lord_n how_o long_o holy_a and_o just_a do_v thou_o not_o avenge_v our_o blood_n upon_o they_o which_o dwell_v upon_o the_o earth_n if_o they_o know_v that_o their_o blood_n be_v not_o yet_o avenge_v do_v they_o not_o know_v when_o a_o sinner_n be_v convert_v and_o if_o they_o know_v the_o time_n of_o conversion_n do_v they_o not_o know_v the_o time_n of_o prayer_n if_o abraham_n know_v that_o there_o be_v such_o man_n as_o moses_n and_o the_o prophet_n who_o be_v dead_a so_o many_o hundred_o of_o year_n before_o their_o time_n can_v we_o say_v that_o they_o be_v ignorant_a think_v you_o that_o those_o minister_a angel_n who_o be_v call_v intelligencer_n give_v they_o no_o intelligence_n or_o that_o they_o gather_v nothing_o of_o intelligence_n by_o look_v he_o in_o the_o face_n who_o be_v the_o fullness_n of_o knowledge_n and_o to_o all_o these_o the_o practice_n and_o opinion_n of_o so_o catholic_n a_o church_n god_n can_v only_o forgive_v sin_n christ_n can_v only_o mediate_v but_o saint_n whether_o in_o heaven_n or_o on_o the_o earth_n may_v intercede_v for_o one_o another_o last_o for_o our_o worship_v of_o image_n confound_v be_v all_o they_o that_o worship_v they_o for_o i_o god_n be_v only_o worthy_a to_o be_v worship_v but_o if_o i_o kneel_v before_o the_o picture_n of_o my_o saviour_n i_o worship_v he_o kneel_v before_o his_o picture_n the_o worship_n be_v in_o the_o heart_n and_o not_o in_o the_o knee_n and_o where_o the_o true_a god_n be_v in_o the_o intention_n there_o can_v be_v no_o idolatry_n o_o sir_n christian_a religion_n be_v not_o a_o protestation_n but_o a_o gospel_n it_o will_v better_o consist_v with_o unity_n than_o opposition_n we_o hold_v it_o a_o piece_n of_o popery_n to_o knock_v our_o own_o breast_n with_o the_o fist_n of_o constitution_n whilst_o we_o hold_v it_o most_o evangelicall_n to_o knock_v at_o our_o neighbour_n with_o a_o constable_n staff_n a_o pious_a care_n in_o a_o mother_n church_n labour_v to_o educate_v she_o own_o daughter_n and_o have_v feed_v she_o at_o her_o own_o breast_n all_o the_o gratitude_n she_o return_v her_o mother_n be_v to_o call_v her_o whore_n antichrist_n babylon_n and_o all_o the_o spiteful_a and_o vile_a name_n that_o can_v be_v imagine_v they_o forget_v that_o say_n of_o the_o apostle_n st._n james_n if_o any_o man_n among_o you_o seem_v to_o be_v religious_a and_o bridle_v not_o his_o tongue_n but_o deceive_v his_o own_o heart_n that_o man_n religion_n be_v in_o vain_a pure_a religion_n and_o undefiled_a before_o god_n and_o the_o father_n be_v this_o to_o visit_v the_o fatherless_a and_o widow_n in_o their_o affliction_n and_o to_o keep_v himself_o unspotted_a from_o the_o world_n what_o shall_v i_o say_v more_o the_o scripture_n be_v make_v a_o nose_n of_o wax_n for_o every_o bold_a hand_n to_o wring_v it_o which_o way_n he_o please_v they_o be_v reject_v by_o private_a man_n by_o whole_a book_n the_o article_n of_o our_o creed_n be_v say_v not_o to_o be_v of_o the_o apostle_n frame_v the_o commandment_n not_o belong_v to_o christian_n impossible_a to_o be_v keep_v the_o sacrament_n deny_v charity_n not_o only_o grow_v cold_a but_o quite_o starve_v and_o they_o will_v be_v save_v by_o mean_n quite_o contrary_a to_o what_o the_o gospel_n which_o they_o seem_v to_o profess_v set_v down_o viz._n by_o faith_n without_o good_a work_n only_o believe_v and_o that_o be_v enough_o whereas_o the_o holy_a apostle_n st._n james_n tell_v we_o that_o faith_n profit_v nothing_o without_o good_a work_n here_o the_o marquesse_n be_v go_v on_o and_o his_o majesty_n interrupt_v he_o king_n my_o lord_n you_o let_v a_o floodgate_n of_o argument_n out_o against_o my_o naked_a breast_n yet_o it_o do_v not_o bear_v i_o any_o thing_n backward_o you_o have_v speak_v a_o great_a many_o thing_n that_o no_o way_n concern_v we_o but_o such_o as_o we_o find_v fault_n with_o as_o much_o as_o you_o and_o other_o thing_n to_o which_o i_o can_v easy_o give_v answer_n if_o i_o can_v take_v but_o some_o of_o that_o time_n and_o leisure_n that_o you_o have_v take_v to_o compose_v your_o argument_n it_o be_v not_o only_o the_o picture_n of_o our_o saviour_n but_o the_o picture_n of_o saint_n which_o you_o both_o worship_n and_o adore_v
have_v see_v that_o in_o the_o judgement_n of_o athanasius_n he_o will_v not_o then_o sure_o neither_o be_v it_o such_o a_o angel_n of_o who_o he_o himself_o do_v seek_v to_o be_v bless_v and_o hierome_n upon_o the_o word_n of_o hosea_n say_v 12._o plain_o that_o this_o angel_n be_v god_n none_o of_o the_o father_n be_v here_o allege_v against_o we_o but_o only_o austin_n who_o i_o have_v show_v to_o testify_v abundant_o for_o we_o that_o which_o he_o 21._o say_v in_o the_o place_n quote_v be_v that_o job_n seem_v to_o desire_v the_o angel_n to_o entreat_v for_o he_o or_o else_o some_o of_o the_o saint_n but_o pineda_n a_o jesuit_n do_v not_o like_o this_o exposition_n but_o call_v it_o allegorical_a and_o expound_v it_o as_o it_o 21._o ought_v to_o be_v expound_v of_o those_o friend_n of_o job_n that_o dispute_v with_o he_o if_o our_o adversary_n shall_v reply_v that_o though_o austin_n ibid._n do_v not_o right_o expound_v the_o word_n of_o job_n yet_o however_o he_o show_v it_o to_o be_v his_o opinion_n that_o the_o angel_n may_v be_v pray_v unto_o i_o answer_v first_o austin_n here_o make_v as_o well_o against_o they_o as_o against_o we_o for_o he_o speak_v as_o much_o of_o job_n pray_v unto_o saint_n as_o unto_o angel_n now_o our_o adversary_n hold_v as_o i_o shall_v show_v more_o hereafter_o that_o in_o those_o time_n before_o christ_n come_v the_o saint_n be_v not_o to_o be_v pray_v unto_o again_o austin_n do_v not_o say_v that_o job_n do_v pray_v either_o to_o saint_n or_o angel_n but_o that_o he_o desire_v yea_o only_o that_o he_o seem_v to_o have_v desire_v that_o they_o may_v pray_v for_o he_o three_o for_o one_o place_n wherein_o austin_n speak_v obscure_o and_o doubtful_o for_o pray_v to_o angel_n we_o have_v many_o plain_a and_o evident_a testimony_n of_o his_o against_o it_o as_o before_o i_o have_v show_v last_o austin_n himself_o have_v teach_v we_o to_o believe_v neither_o he_o 111._o nor_o any_o other_o further_o than_o they_o accord_v with_o the_o scripture_n but_o that_o we_o may_v save_v the_o reverence_n that_o be_v due_a unto_o they_o dissent_v from_o they_o when_o as_o they_o dissent_v from_o the_o truth_n thus_o he_o say_v he_o do_v in_o respect_n of_o the_o write_n of_o other_o and_o so_o he_o will_v have_v other_o to_o do_v in_o respect_n of_o his_o write_n from_o the_o angel_n the_o marquis_n pass_v to_o the_o saint_n decease_v 68_o say_v we_o hold_v that_o the_o saint_n decease_v know_v what_o pass_v here_o on_o earth_n you_o say_v they_o know_v not_o we_o have_v scripture_n for_o it_o luke_n 16._o 29._o where_o abraham_n know_v that_o there_o be_v moses_n and_o the_o prophet_n book_n here_o on_o earth_n which_o he_o himself_o have_v never_o see_v when_o he_o be_v alive_a the_o father_n say_v as_o much_o euseb_n ser._n de_fw-fr ann._n s._n hiero._n in_o epit._n paulae_n s._n max._n ser._n de_fw-fr agnete_n answ_n that_o the_o saint_n decease_v do_v not_o know_v the_o particular_a affair_n of_o man_n here_o on_o earth_n the_o scripture_n do_v teach_v we_o job._n 14._o 21._o his_o son_n come_v to_o honour_n and_o he_o know_v it_o not_o and_o they_o be_v bring_v low_a but_o he_o perceive_v it_o not_o of_o they_o there_o job_n speak_v indefinite_o of_o a_o man_n depart_v out_o of_o this_o life_n whether_o he_o be_v saint_n or_o no_o saint_n and_o show_v that_o he_o do_v not_o so_o much_o as_o understand_v the_o estate_n of_o such_o as_o have_v most_o near_a relation_n unto_o he_o and_o how_o then_o shall_v we_o persuade_v ourselves_o that_o he_o do_v understand_v the_o estate_n of_o other_o and_o from_o those_o word_n isai_n 63._o 16._o abraham_n be_v ignorant_a of_o we_o and_o israel_n know_v we_o not_o austin_n do_v infer_v that_o the_o dead_a be_v not_o acquaint_v with_o the_o affair_n of_o the_o live_n 13._o if_o not_o our_o parent_n say_v he_o what_o other_o dead_a person_n know_v what_o we_o do_v or_o suffer_v if_o so_o great_a patriarch_n abraham_n and_o jacob_n know_v not_o how_o it_o fare_v with_o those_o that_o do_v descend_v from_o they_o how_o do_v the_o dead_a intermeddle_v in_o know_v and_o help_v the_o affair_n of_o those_o that_o be_v alive_a for_o my_o part_n i_o think_v that_o place_n of_o isaiah_n not_o so_o pertinent_a to_o the_o purpose_n but_o that_o the_o meaning_n of_o it_o be_v that_o the_o people_n of_o israel_n be_v so_o degenerate_a that_o abraham_n and_o israel_n if_o they_o know_v what_o manner_n of_o person_n they_o be_v will_v not_o own_v they_o not_o acknowledge_v they_o for_o their_o posterity_n yet_o however_o austin_n show_v what_o his_o opinion_n be_v concern_v those_o that_o be_v decease_v viz._n that_o they_o be_v ignorant_a of_o the_o thing_n that_o be_v do_v here_o which_o be_v evident_a enough_o by_o those_o word_n of_o job_n before_o cite_v bellarmine_n say_v that_o gregory_n upon_o the_o place_n do_v answer_v that_o 20._o natural_o the_o dead_a know_v not_o how_o it_o fare_v with_o the_o like_n but_o that_o yet_o the_o saint_n be_v glorify_v do_v see_v in_o god_n all_o thing_n quae_fw-la nimirum_fw-la ad_fw-la ipsos_fw-la pertinent_a viz._n which_o do_v belong_v unto_o they_o but_o gregory_n upon_o those_o word_n of_o job_n say_v thus_o as_o they_o that_o be_v alive_a know_v not_o where_o ibid._n the_o soul_n of_o the_o dead_a be_v so_o they_o that_o be_v dead_a know_v not_o how_o they_o live_v that_o be_v after_o they_o indeed_o he_o add_v present_o after_o this_o yet_o be_v not_o to_o be_v think_v of_o the_o holy_a soul_n because_o they_o that_o see_v the_o brightness_n of_o almighty_a god_n be_v by_o no_o mean_n to_o be_v think_v ignorant_a of_o any_o thing_n beside_o therefore_o he_o understand_v job_n as_o speak_v only_o of_o such_o dead_a person_n as_o be_v unholy_a whereas_o indeed_o job_n word_n be_v indefinite_a and_o indifferent_o to_o be_v understand_v of_o all_o that_o be_v dead_a except_o by_o special_a revelation_n any_o thing_n do_v here_o below_o be_v make_v know_v unto_o they_o thou_o destroy_v the_o hope_n of_o man_n v_o 19_o viz._n his_o hope_n of_o continue_v here_o in_o this_o life_n thou_o change_v his_o countenance_n and_o send_v he_o away_o v_o 20._o this_o hold_n in_o respect_n of_o all_o and_o then_o follow_v his_o son_n come_v to_o honour_n and_o he_o know_v it_o not_o etc._n etc._n v._n 21._o so_o that_o the_o coherence_n of_o the_o word_n show_v that_o they_o be_v mean_v general_o of_o all_o that_o be_v decease_v and_o that_o which_o gregory_n say_v of_o the_o saint_n that_o see_v god_n in_o he_o they_o see_v all_o thing_n bellarmine_n himself_o it_o seem_v do_v think_v too_o lavish_a and_o therefore_o he_o limit_n it_o to_o all_o thing_n which_o concern_v they_o or_o belong_v unto_o they_o which_o limitation_n do_v indeed_o mar_v his_o market_n for_o how_o do_v it_o appear_v that_o it_o belong_v unto_o the_o saint_n depart_v to_o understand_v particular_a occurrence_n here_o below_o and_o namely_o all_o the_o prayer_n that_o any_o shall_v make_v unto_o they_o 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angel_n or_o by_o be_v after_o a_o sort_n ibid._n every_o where_o present_a he_o say_v plain_o that_o neither_o of_o they_o do_v satisfy_v and_o give_v convince_a reason_n for_o it_o and_o for_o the_o other_o two_o opinion_n viz._n that_o the_o saint_n from_o the_o begin_n of_o their_o blessedness_n do_v in_o god_n see_v all_o thing_n that_o any_o way_n appertain_v unto_o they_o or_o that_o god_n do_v then_o reveal_v thing_n unto_o the_o saint_n when_o any_o at_o any_o time_n do_v pray_v unto_o they_o he_o like_v not_o the_o latter_a of_o these_o because_o he_o say_v if_o the_o saint_n do_v need_v a_o new_a revelation_n upon_o every_o occasion_n the_o church_n will_v