breath ergo the Prince conferreth life and breath to thē Or the Prince permitteth her Subiectes to beleeue in God and relieue ech others ergo the Prince conferreth faith and charitie to them Phi. It giueth her to do that which is more euen to prescribe by her selfe or her deputies or lawes authorised onely by her selfe which waie to worship and serue God how and in what forme to minister the Sacramentes to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which waie she will be gouerned in soule Theo. That Princes may prescribe what faith they list what seruice of God they please what forme of administring the Sacraments they thinke best is no part of our thought nor point of our doctrine And yet that Princes may by their lawes prescribe the christian faith to be preached the right seruice of God in spirit and truth to be vsed the Sacraments to be ministred according to the Lords institution this is no absurditie in vs to defend but impietie rather in you to withstande And that Princes may punish both Bishoppes and others for heresie dissention and all kinde of iniquitie by banishing and commaunding them to bee remoued from their Churches which you call depriuing cā not now be coūted absurd vnlesse you reiect the stories of the church and lawes of christian Princes which I before cited as absurd For there shall you finde that Emperours by their Lawes and Edictes haue commaunded Bishops to be iudicially depriued by other bishops actually displaced by their temporal Magistrates as well for erronious teaching as vicious liuing Phi. When you giue princes supreme power in matters of religion you giue thē leaue to do what they lift The. If you affirm that of vs your report is vtterly vntrue if you infer it vpon vs your reason is very ridiculous For what a fond illation is this Princes be supreme that is not subiect to the Popes iurisdictiō ergo princes may lawfully do what they wil. Phi. We say not lawfully but if there be none to cōtrole thē none can let thē to do what they list The. The dreadful iudgements of God not the leud practises of Popes must bridle Princes frō doing euill If they feare not a reuenger in heauen whom they can not escape they will neuer regard a conspirator in earth whom they may soone preuent yet we dispute not what tyrāts de facto wil do but what godly Princes of dutie should of right may do This is it that we seek for therfore you must conclude this or nothing Phi. You giue thē authority to make lawes punish for religion without anie mētion of truth or error The. The oth expresseth not their duty to God but ours to thē as they must be obeied whē they ioin with truth so must they be endured whē they fal into error which side soeuer they take either obediēce to their wils or submissiō to their swords is their due by Gods law that is al which our oth exacteth And yet when we professe thē to be gouernors that word restraineeh thē from their own lusts referreth thē to Gods ordināce For they which resist God impugn the truth oppresse the righteous assist error fauor impietie be no gouernors vnder God as all princes oughtto bee but tyrantes against God not bearers but wilful abusers of the sword which God hath appointed for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well And this though it be not expressed yet is it euer imploied in the very scepters swords thrones of princes For dominiō power maiesty belōg of right to god alone are by him imparted to Princes with this condition to this end that they shold raign vnder him not ouer him cōmand for him not against him be honored obeied after him not before him therefore this quarrell sauoreth not of ignorance but of malice when you say we giue Princes power to do what they wil in matters pertaining to God his seruice We reiect detest that sinful assertion more than you do In deede we say that the Pope may not pull Princes crownes frō their heads nor seeke to master them with contriuing rebellions treasons against them whiles hee pretendeth to depose them In this onely sense wee defende them to bee supreme that is not at libertie to do what they lift without regard of truth or right but without superiour on earth to represse them with violent meanes and to take their kingdomes from them Phi. It maketh the bodie aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spirituall the earthly kingdom aboue Christes mysticall bodie It maketh the sheepe aboue the Pastour it giueth her power to commaund them whom wherein she is bound to obey It giueth power to the subiect to be iudge of the iudges yea of God himselfe as S. Cyprian speaketh Theo. I am loth to bring you out of loue with your owne conceits otherwise I neuer saw more boldnes lesse soundnes in any man If we did preferre earthly things before heauenly you might iustly charge vs that we set the body aboue the soule but betweene Princes Priests that comparison is foolish except you thinke Priests to be without bodies Princes without soules which were a mery deuise The spirituall regiment which Christ hath ouer the faithfull in his Church is infinitely before the temporal regiment of Princes ouer their subiects But if by this you would inferre that good Princes may not punish euill Priestes you deface godlinesse and trueth in Princes as temporall and exact wickednesse and error in Priestes as spirituall which is more than absurde As for the right functions of Preachers and Princes if that bee the matter you speake of for you speake so doubtfully that wee can gather no certaintie what you meane know you that as in spiritual perfection and consolation the Preacher excelleth the Prince by many decrees God hauing appointed Preachers not Princes to bee the sowers of his seede messenges of his grace stewardes of his mysteries so for externall power and authoritie to compell punish which is the point that we stande on God hath preferred the Prince before the Priest so long as the Prince commaundeth that which God alloweth And in this case wee make not temporall aboue spirituall as you tricke it with termes but auouch that the same God who teacheth the simple and leadeth the willing by the Preachers mouth driueth the negligent and forceth the froward by the Princes sword which himselfe that is a spirit and the father of spirites hath ordained to that end The mystical bodie of Christ which is his church containeth not only Prists bishops but all the faithfull in heauenly graces inward vertues far exceedeth all earthly kingdomes and yet hath God himselfe authorized the sword on earth in Princes handes to be keepers
not onely their kingdomes from them but also their liues Phi. That wee meane when they will not otherwise obey Theo. By your construction meaning the world is well amended with you For where the holy Ghost commandeth Prelates Popes and all others to bee subiect to Princes you with the cunning of your keyes giue the Spirit of God the plaine â—lip and chalenge not onely right to rule them but power to depriue them at your pleasures And this haynous impietie lest the simple should distrust it you ouer-spred with a couer of the Catholike fayth as if the Popes ambition and your sedition were lately become parts of Christes doctrine Phi. In obedience to the keyes wee put no difference betweene princes and priuate persons Theo. Proue that of priuate persons which you presume touching Princes and we will agnise the rest though wee neede not Philand What shall wee proue Theo. That the Popes keyes by Gods Lawe reach vnto the goods or landes of the meanest subiect in this Realme Phi. I proued that before by the dealing of Peter with Ananias and of Paul with Elimas Theo. And I answered you before that from Gods miraculous woorking by their mouthes to your ordinarie calling and attempting the like with your handes is no good argument And therefore they might pronounce the woord and not bee murderers because the fact was Gods and not theirs you can not execute the Popes censures without actuall conspiring and rebelling against your Prince which God hath prohibited If then you may not offer the poorest crafts-man that is that wrong by the word of God what grouÌ„d of christian religion can this be that the Pope may take the sword and Scepter from the Prince and commaund you to bee his helpers and coadiutours in that wicked enterprise whom the Apostle chargeth to giue tribute custome feare and honour to superiour powers that haue the swoorde in Gods steede to rewarde good and reuenge euill Phi. May not the shepheard reclaime the sheepe if they will not bee ruled Theo. But no good sheepheard lameth or killeth his sheepe though they will not bee folded and yet similitudes bee no syllogismes I trust you will not claime that same dominion ouer Princes which owners haue ouer their sheepe and oxen Phi. No but I shewe you by this example that correction is permitted where direction is refused Theo. Pastours haue their kind of correction euen ouer Princes but such as by Gods law may stand with the Pastors vocation and tend to the Princes saluation and that exceedeth not the worde and Sacraments other correction ouer any priuate man Pastours haue none much lesse ouer Princes Phi. Yeas they may force them to repentance if they can not perswade them Theo. Princes may force their subiects by the temporall sworde which they beare bishoppes may not force their flocke with any corporall or externall violence Chrysostome largely debateth and fully concludeth this matter with vs. If any sheepe sayth he goe out of the right way leauing the plentifull pastours graze on barren and steepe-places the sheephearde somewhat exalteth his voyce to reduce the dispersed and stragling sheepe and to compell them to the flocke But if any man wander from the right pathe of the christian fayth the Pastor must vse great paynes care and patience Neque enim vis illi inferenda neque terrore ille cogendus verùm suadendus tantum vt de integro ad veritatem redeat For hee may not be forced nor constrayned with terror but only perswaded to returne againe to the truth And again A Bishop can not cure men with such authoritie as a sheepheard doeth his sheep For a sheepeheard hath his choyce to bynde his sheepe to diet them to seare them and cut them but in the other case the facilitie of the cure consisteth not in him that giueth but onely in him that taketh the medicine This that admirable teacher perceiuing sayd to the Corinthians not that wee haue any dominion ouer you vnder the name of fayth but that wee are helpers of your ioy For of all men Christian Bishoppes may least correct the faults of men by force Iudges that are without the Church when they take any transgressing the Lawes they shewe them-selues to bee endued with great authoritie and power and compell them in spite of their heartes to chaunge their manners But here in the Church wee may not offer any violence but only perswade Wee haue not so great authoritie giuen vs by the Lawes as to represse offendours and if it were lawfull for vs so to doe wee haue no vse of any such violent power for that Christ crowneth them which abstaine from sinne not of a forced but of a willing minde and purpose Hilarie teacheth the same lesson If this violence were vsed for the true fayth the Doctrine of Bishoppes woulde bee against it God needeth no forced seruice hee requireth no constrained confession I can not receiue any man but him that is willing I cannot giue eare but to him that intreateth I cannot signe any but him that gladly professeth Origen agreeth with them both See the wisedome of the holy Ghost Because that other faults are iudged by the Lawes of Princes and it seemed superfluous nowe to prohibite those thinges by Gods Lawe which are sufficiently reuenged by mans he repeateth those and none else as fit for religion of which mans Lawe sayde nothing Whereby it appeareth that the Iudges of this world doe meddle with the greatest part of Gods lawe For all the crimes which God woulde haue reuenged hee would haue them reuenged not by the Bishoppes and rulers of the Church but by the Iudges of the worlde that Paul knowing rightly calleth the Prince Gods minister and iudge of him that doeth euill Phi. Bishoppes may not offer force with their owne handes but they may command others to doe it for them Theoph. A grosse shift As though temporall Princes or Iudges did execute malefactours with their owne handes Bishoppes by vertue of their vocation can not claime the swoorde and consequently they cannot commaunde or authorize any man to take the goodes or touche the bodies of Christians or Infidels Which being a cleare conclusion it is most euident they can much lesse licence you to take the Crownes and touch the liues of Princes to whome God hath deliuered the swoorde to iudge the earth and made them seruants only to himselfe since all other soules must bee subiect to them by the tenor of his own prescription and their first erection as the Scripture witnesseth Phi. Say what you will it is religion it is no treason to defende that the Pope may lawfully depose Princes for tyrannie and heresie Theoph. It is easie for you to multiplie woordes you haue stoare of them as appeareth by your Apologie and defence of English Catholikes which consist of nothing else but the Popes power to depriue princes is
the Princes or nayle vp cloth of Tissue where the Prince is not and say it is a chayre of state would you bee so foolish as to regard either of them or shoulde you not dishonour the king if you did reuerence them since they bee not such thinges as the Prince accepteth or vseth for his but other mens counterfaites Phi. I speake of that Chaire where the Prince did sit and of that Seale which the Prince did send Theo. I knowe you did and therefore I refused your similitude as vnlike the matter in question betwixt vs because images are neither places of Christes presence nor witnesses of his will as Seates and seales are vnto Princes no nor ordayned allowed or admitted by Christ to haue any credite or vse about his heauenly person or pleasure but only proposed by men of a naturall and kind affection as they thought towards Christ though cleane without warrant and so without thankes from him For hee of purpose tooke his bodily presence from the eyes of men that hee might dwell in their heartes by fayth and to teach vs to honour him not by that proportion of face which the painter would drawe but by that abundance of loue grace and mercie which hee hath extended on vs and layde in stoare for vs and which no corporall eyes can behold nor colours expresse but onely the hearing of his woorde and woorking of his spirite can lighten and perswade the heart of man to conceiue and beleeue Phi. Is it not thankes woorthie with God to haue alwayes the shape of his sonne before our eyes that wee may honour him with our hearts Theo. To honour him with your heartes and to haue him at all times in your mindes is religious and requisite but to make light of those meanes which hee hath prescribed to nourish your fayth and continue the memorie of him-selfe to seeke out others of your owne fit to please your senses not to resemble his greatnes or goodnes this is neither acceptable vnto God nor profitable for your selues Phi. To remember Christ cannot bee euill Theo. Not to remember him till you looke on a picture can not bee good Your heartes ought alwayes to bee lifted vp vnto him that whether you eate or drinke wake or sleepe or whatsoeuer you doe in woorde or deede you may doe all in the name of the Lord Iesu giuing thankes alwayes for all thinges vnto God the father in the name of our Lorde Iesus Christ. You must not tary for the execution of this precept till you see an Image But all your actions woordes and thoughtes must bee directed to the prayse of his glory and honour of his name This if you put in bre you shall neede no painted nor carued Image to bring you in mynde of his mercies The benefites and blessings within you without you and on euery side of you which GOD for Christes sake bestoweth on you are so many that you can hardly forget him vnlesse you also forget the earth that beareth you the heauen that couereth you the day that guydeth your feete the night that giueth you rest the meates that you feede on and the breath that you liue by yea your owne bodies which hee woonderfully made and soules which hee preciously bought All these thinges and all other thinges in heauen and earth you must drowne in vtter obliuion before you can inferre that Images bee needefull to put vs in mynde of our dueties to GOD. And since without Images you can and must remember the Father that created and the Holy Ghost that â—anctified you why shoulde you forget the sonne that redeemed you more than the other except you haue Images at your elbowes to kindle you appetites But this is nothing to the worshipping of Images which you should proue to bee Catholike Though there were an historicall vse in painting the shape of our Sauiour yet is it no pietie to worshippe the picture Graunt it might be vsed for remembrance for religion it may not and therefore you are all this while besides the marke Philand You denie both the hauing and woorshipping of Images to bee Catholique Wee prooue the hauing of them to bee necessarie by the fruite and profite that commeth from them namely the instruction of the ignorant in the storie of their saluation the putting vs in often remembraunce of our Sauiour and the stirring vp our deuotion with more feruencie The worshipping of them wee proue with more facilitie for if hee that honoureth the Image honour the person himselfe thereby represented as S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Chrysostome and S. Ambrose doe affirme then the worship which is done to the Image of Christ passeth vnto Christ himselfe and by consequent if it bee lawfull to adore and honour Christ it is not vnlawfull to doe the like to his Image Besides wee can prooue that adoration of Images is a tradition deliuered from the Apostles and obserued in all Churches and that the Scripture it selfe supporteth vs in this point as the learned epistle of Adrian the Bishoppe of Rome to Constantine and Irene doeth largely shewe and for the credite of the cause wee haue a general Councell eight hundreth yeres old to say as much in euery point as I affirme and more Theo. Wee maruell not to see you so deepely deceiued and strongly deluded as you bee such is the iust iudgement of God on all that admit not the loue of the trueth but haue pleasure in vnrighteousnes You rest on the vanities forgeries of such as were enclined to the same error before you not examining their proofes nor considering their reportes but presuming their euident follies to bee pregnant authorities for you whith is euer the next way to seduce others and to bee seduced your selues As touching the shew which you make of Scriptures Apostolike Tradition Churches Fathers Councels it is a childish and friuolous vaunt The fathers which you quote are abused the Apostles and their Churches belied the Scriptures depraued and wrested the Councell which you call generall reiected as wicked and diligently refuted in the same age by the West Bishoppes Of these emptie and vnluckie Maskes the more you bring the lesse you wynne Phi. Wee loose nothing so long as you lode vs onely with words Theo. If your proofes bee vaine my woordes be true Looke you therefore to the soundnesse of that which you alleage otherwise your owne burden will ouerpresse you Philand The collection which I made out of Saint Basill and others is very sure Saint Basill sayth Honos Imaginis in ipsum prototypum redit The honour doone to the Image redoundeth to the principall that is thereby represented S. Athanasius Qui Imaginem adorat in ipsa Imperatorem adorat He that reuerenceth the Image honoureth therein the Emperour And S. Chrysostome Knowest thou not that hee which hurteth the Emperours Image defaceth the Imperiall dignitie it selfe And so S. Ambrose Hee that
of Christ inwardly Tast therefore and see howe sweete the meate is but learne before what manner of tast it hath It beareth the tast of Angels foode hauing in it a mysticall and pleasaunt relesse which thou canst not discerne with thy mouth but mayest vnderstande with thine inwarde affection Holde readie the mouth of thy fayth open the iawes of hope stretch out the bowels of loue and take the breade of life which is the nourishment of the inwarde man Tast I saie the sweetenesse of this heauenly banquette but lothe the smatche of the earthlie fruites For from the faith of the inwarde man commeth the tasting of the diuine iuyce whiles by the taking of the healthful Eucharist CHRIST FLOWETH INTO THE BOWELS OF THE SOVLE OF THE RECEAVER AND THE RELIGIOVS MINDE ADMITTETH HIM INTO HER CHAST AND INNERMOST ROOMES There shall neede no long discourse to proue that these Catholike Fathers teach in the Lordes Supper a spirituall kinde of eating the fleshe of Christ by faith and vnderstanding as wee doe not a corporall with teeth and iawes as you doe The places bee manie the wordes plaine you can not shift them vnlesse you will desperatly take fleshe for spirite bodie for soule chamming for beleeuing earth for heauen yea a dumme and dead creature for the liuing and euerlasting sonne of God which were not onely sensible blindnesse but in excusable madnes Phi. The spiritual eating wee doe not deny but we adde to that a corporall because the soul may bee partaker of Christ by faith notwithstanding the mouth receiue the very flesh of Christ vnder the formes of bread and wine Theo. This is your onely refuge that is left and this will not helpe you For examine this answere a while and you shall soone see the weakenesse of it My flesh is truely meate saith Christ and my blood is truely drinke Hee that doubteth of this we holde him accursed you doe the like thus farre we agree Mary for what part of man soule or bodie this meate was prouided in this we dissent You say for the body no lesse than for the soule wee say for the soule and not for the body So saide Chrysostome before vs. This meate feedeth not the body but the soule So saide Ambrose It is no bodilie but Ghostlie meate So said Augustine Prepare not your iawes but your harts thence is this super commended so saide Cyprian This is the proper nourishment of the spirit and not common to the flesh Now that which is eaten is meate And therefore if Christ bee no meate for the bodie but onely for the soule assuredly Christ is not eaten of our bodies but of soules only Next you confesse that the mortall and sinnefull bodies of men may not bee substantially nourished with the glorious and immortall flesh of Christ and eating is altogither in vaine euen of the flesh of Christ it selfe without norishing al the fathers with one consent teach this to be the end of caring the fleshe of Christ that we should be thereby norished to life eternal Why then striue you for a corporal eating where your selues dare not defend any corporal norishing Why distract you eating frō norishing by referring them one to the body the other to the soule which the Fathers alwayes ioyned applied to one the self same part of man Many mothers saith Chrysost. deliuered their infants whē they are born to other norces which he would not do but norisheth vs with his own body And in the same place where he saith Ipsum vides ipsum tangis ipsum comedis thou seest him thou touchest him thou eatest him addeth Ea namque re nos alimur quam Angeli videntes tremunt For we are nourished with that thing which the Angels tremble when they behold And so the rest of the Fathers call it not onely meate to eate but nutrimentum alimoniam norishment food to keepe the receiuer in plight and good liking So that that part of man doth not eat the fleshe of Christ which is not norished with it And since you dare not auouch that our bodies are really nourished with the flesh of Christ why shoulde you hold that our mouthes do reallie eate him Lastly with what one meate can you fit both the bodies and soules of men That which entereth the body must bee locall and corporall That which feedeth the soule must bee spirituall and intellectuall The soule hath no locall receites nor corporall instrumentes for her kinde of eating but onely faith and vnderstanding So that if the fleshe of Christ in this mysterie bee materiall and locall how canne it feede the soule If it bee spirituall and intellectuall howe can it bee chammed with teeth or closed in the streites of the stomack Local not local corporal not corporal be plaine contradictions and by no meanes incident to the naturall flesh of Christ. One it must needs be both it cannot be though you would sweate out your hearts with wrangling And that Christ is not eaten with teeth or mouth the Ghospell in plaine wordes auoucheth with vs. Whosoeuer eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud hath eternall life my flesh is meat indeed my bloud is drinke in deed hee that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me and I in him saith our Sauiour The wicked liue not by Christ neither abide in Christ and therefore by the verie determination of the Lorde him-self they neither eate his flesh nor drinke his bloude Runne nowe to your distinction of corporall and spirituall eating when you will but so long as these wordes stand written in the Ghospell he that eateth me euen he shall liue by me the Godly will soone conclude that SVCH AS LIVE NOT BY CHRIST DOE NOT EATE CHRIST and so that corporall eating of Christes flesh which you would erect common to the faithfull and faithlesse to be no kind of eating at al notwithstanding they receiue the materiall and external elementes of this mysterie Phi. In spite of all your places and proofes there is a Sacramentall eateing of Christs flesh with mouth and iawes besides your spirituall eating it with faith and spirite which you could not doe vnlesse it were really present therefore you doe not well to beguile the simple in this sort with refuting one trueth by an other whereas the fathers confessed both Theo. In spite of all your late deuises euasions the flesh of Christ is not truely eaten with Capernites teeth or Iesuits iawes neither do the fathers auouch any such thing saue in that sense which I last declared that the signes so called are eaten of the wicked with their mouthes and throates but of the flesh it selfe and bloud of Christ they plainly affirme the contrarie S. Augustine expounding the wordes of our sauiour hee that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud remaineth in me and I in him saith
you suffer the father him-selfe to tell out his owne tale and bee content to heare as well the ending as the entring of it Hee saieth the bread is chaunged in nature into the flesh of Christ by the almightie power of the woorde expressing in what into what and by what the bread is chaunged moe parts you cannot make Phi. Wee need not Theo. And yet all these notwithstanding he meaneth no materiall nor corporall change of the bread or wine but that as in the person of Christ there were two distinct perfect substances vnited and ioyned the one his manhood that was seene the other his godhead that was hid euen so to the visible Sacrament persisting in his former substance doth the diuine essence infunde it selfe after a secret and vnsearchable manner proouing the presence of an heauenly vertue to bee there by the inuisible efficience Philand If you will haue the bread keepe his proper and perfect both nature and substance what change is there made in the bread Theoph. This chaunge is not the casting awaie of any thing that was in the bread either nature or substance but the casting vnto it of an heauenly and inuisible grace and so Theoâ—orete expresseth the mutation that is in this sacrament Non naturam ipsam transmutans sed naturae adiiciens gratiam Not changing or casting away nature it selfe but adding grace vnto nature And that is S. Ambrose his meaning when hee saieth Sunt quae erant in aliud commutantur The bread and wine are the verie same that they were both in nature and substance and are changed into an other thing Philand How can this be that they should be changed and yet continue the same but as wee expound it that in substance they be chaunged and yet in shew continue as they were before Theoph. This is your fansie wee know but the learned fathers by their change meane no such thing they teach not any detraction or diminution of that which was but an adiection and apposition of that which was not And therefore they witnes both as well the permanence of the elements in their former nature as their change into an other Chrysostome said as you heard before The bread sanctified is counted worthie to be called the Lordes bodie etsi natura panis in ipso permansit though the nature of bread remaine there still and Theodoret Neque enim signa illa mystica post sanctificationem recedunt à sua natura those mysticall signes doe not by Consecration depart from their nature And Gelasius Non tamen desinit esse substantia vel natura panis vini and yet the substance or nature of bread wine doth not cease or perish And to this verie sacrament S. Austen applâ—eth this Rule Omnis res naturam veritatem illarum rerum in se continet ex quibus conficitur Euerie thing containeth or keepeth the nature truth of those things of which it consisteth Phi. You refuâ—â— Cyprian you doe not expound him He saith the nature of the bread is changed you prooue it remaineth be not these contrarie Theo. Bâ— your exposition they are by ours they are not For the nature of bread wee say remaineth and is in nothing diminished but encreased with an heauenly vertue that is added to it And this though it be a chaunge to that which it was not yet is it no change from that which it was Philand That is properly chaunged which is altered from that it was Theo. And that is as properly saied to be chaunged which is increased with that it was not though it be not altered in substance from that it was The soule of man is often chaunged but neuer in substance The bodie from the cradle to the graue hath many increases and changes but in substance persisteth the same that it was before it came into the worlde Euerie thing that groweth keepeth that it had atchiueth that it had not and yet is that a change But what neede we other examples since the fathers themselues doe both by their words similitudes shew what changes they ment A childe is changed by baptisme not in loosing or altering the substance of bodie or soul which hee had but in attaining the grace blessing of God which he had not The Lorde himselfe is changed in person by his ascension not that the trueth shape or circumscription of his flesh are abolished but endued with immortall glory So shall he alter our vile bodies not by spoiling them of their substance but by imparting to them of his brightnes and as S. Paul writeth We shall not all sleepe but we shall be changed Phi. S. Pauls wordes are nothing to the Sacrament Theo. They are somwhat to the vse of the word which I proposed and yet Ireneus doth not sticke to resemble the change in the Sacrament to the verie hope and assurance which our bodies now haue of that glorie before they be changed or haue cast off their mortal and earthly corruption As saith he the bread which is of the earth receiuing the inuocation of god is now no common bread but the Eucharist consisting of two things an earthlie an heauenlie so our bodies receiuing the Eucharist be now not corruptible that is not wholly destinated to corruption as hauing hope of resurrection Phi. But S. Ambrose repeateth examples of corporall and substantial changes when he would proue that blessing in this sacrament ouerbeareth nature Theo. S. Ambrose doth not say that the bread is changed after the same manner but meaning to shew that praier and benediction worketh where nature cannot yea many times altereth nature hee bringeth seauen examples whereof fiue are no substantial changes in the end concludeth that if the praiers speech of meÌ„ could turn alter things aboue against nature much more can the word of christ bring to passe that the elements shal bee that they were yet be changed into that they were not and which by nature they are not Phi. He hath no such wordes in that chapter Theo. His conclusion there is this Sermo ergo Christi qui potuit ex nihilo facere quod non erat non potest ea quae sunt in id mutare quod non erant The worde of Christ who could of nothing make that which was not can hee not change those things which are into that which before they were not And in the next booke intitled De Sacramentis assuming the same matter and producing almost all the same examples and arguments he resolueth in these wordes Si ergo tanta vis est in sermone Domini Iesu vt inciperent esse quae non erant quanto magis operatorius est vt sint quae erant in aliud commutentur If there bee such force in the worde of the Lord Iesu that the things which were not at his worde beganne to be how much
You must bee subiect for conscience sake If the Saintes must bee subiect to Princes ergo the Church for the Church on earth is nothing els but the collection of Saintes And if euery soule that is euery man must bee subiect howe can the Church consisting of men bee exempted But if by the Church you meane the preceptes and promises giftes and graces of God preached in the Church and poured on the Church Princes must humbly obey them and reuerently receiue them as well as other priuate men So that Prophets Apostles Euangelists and all other buylders of Christes Church as touching their Persons bee subiect to the Princes power mary the word of trueth in their mouthes and the Seales of grace in their handes because they are of God not of themselues they be farre aboue the Princes calling and regiment and in those cases kinges and Queenes if they will bee saued must submit themselues to Gods euerlasting trueth and testament as well as the meanest of their people but this neither abateth the power which God hath giuen them ouer all men nor maketh them thrall to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee forced and punished at his pleasure and therefore this notwithstanding Princes bee supreme that is superiour to all and subiect to none but onely to God Phi. Who euer taught before you that Princes were subiect only to God Theo. The Church of Christ from the beginning Colimus Imperatorem vt hominem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem Wee reuerence the Emperour sayth Tertullian as a man next vnto God and inferiour only to God Againe Deum esse solum in cuius solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes super omnes Deos hommes It is onely God in whose power alone Princes are in comparison with him they bee second and after him first afore all and ouer all both Gods and men So likewise Optatus Super Imperatorem non est nisi solus Deus qui fecit Imperatorem Aboue the Empe-rour is none but onely GOD who made the Emperour And Chrysostome Parem vllum super terram non habet The Emperour hath no peere on earth much lesse any superiour And that Princes are aboue all Saint Paul is cleare Let euery soule bee subiect to the Superiour powers All must bee subiect to them ergo they bee superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Chrysostome calleth the Emperour The highest and head of all men vpon earth Iustinian sayth the Emperour hath receiued a common gouernement and Principalitie ouer all men Ambrose sayth of Theodosius that hee had power ouer all men And Gregorie as you hearde affirmeth that Power is giuen to Princes from heauen ouer all men not onely Souldiers but also Priestes And since I before concluded and you confessed all men were they Monkes Priestes Bishoppes or whatsoeuer to bee subiect to the Princes power and authoritie both in causes ecclesiasticall and temporall why shoulde that nowe bee reuoked or doubted Phi. I neuer did nor will confesse Princes to bee supreme For he that iudgeth on earth in Christes steade is aboue them all Theo. You come nowe to the quicke This very clayme was the cause why the woorde supreme was added to the othe for that the Bishoppe of Rome taketh vppon him to commaund and depose Princes as their lawfull and superiour iudge To exclude this wicked presumption wee teach that Princes be supreme rulers wee meane subiect to no superiour iudge to giue a reason of their doings but onely to God Phi. This you teach but this you can not prooue Theo. It forceth not what wee can doe The burden in this case to prooue is yours and not ours You say Princes bee subiect to the Popes Consistorie wee say they bee not Must wee prooue the negatiue or must you rather make good your affirmatiue Againe Saint Paul auoucheth with vs that euery soule is subiect to their power You contradict those woordes and say the Pope is not subiect but Superiour to Princes The generall in precise tearmes concludeth for vs you except the Pope must you not prooue your exception Phi. You be loth to proue you knowe the weakenes of your side Theo. You crosse the plaine wordes of the holy Ghost and woulde put vs to refute your fansies Phi. Wee say Christs Uicar is not included in those woordes Theo. Wee say the generall includeth euery particular Phi. How could Paul make Peter a subiect to Princes when Peter was none Theo. Why shoulde not Peter bee subiect to Princes when God himselfe pronounced by the mouth of Paul that euery soule was subiect to them Phi. Who euer constred S. Pauls words so besides you Theo. The Church of Christ neuer constred them otherwise Peter and the Bishoppes of Rome for the first three hundred yeeres did they not patiently submit themselues as subiects to those punishments and torments which heathen Princes inflicted on other Christians Phi. In deede they were martyred for the most part by the rage of Infidels that knewe them not Theo. And the Christians that knewe them neuer tooke armes to defend thē against the rage of Infidels but thought them subiect to higher powers by force of S. Pauls words as well as all other Bishoppes were Phi. They might not resist though they were wrongfully vexed Theo. And why might they not but because they were subiect by Gods ordinance to the Princes power Unlawfull violence might well bee resisted Phi. Christian Princes were neuer superiours to the Bishoppes of Rome Theo. Syr your courage is more than your cunning The Bishops of Rome for eight hundred and fiftie yeres after Christ that we can directly proue were duetifull and obedient subiects to Christian Emperours Phi. Are you not ashamed to tell such a tale Theo. Will you be ashamed of your error if I proue it a trueth Phi. Shewe mee that and I will yeeld the rest Theo. The rest is alreadie proued and this shall be presently shewed I might alleage that after the Romane Emperours began to professe the name of Christ Iulius and Liberius were banished by Constantius Bonifacius the first by Honorius Syluerius and Vigilius by Iustinian Martyne the first by Constantine the thirde and diuers other Popes by sundrie Princes but that I will skippe come to the submission of Leo the fourth made to Ludouike the West Emperour with these wordes If we haue done any thing otherwise than well and not dealt vprightly with those that are vnder vs wee will amend all that is amisse by the iudgement of your highnes beseeching your excellencie to sende for the better triall of these surmises such as in the feare of God may narrowly sift not onely the matters infourmed but all our doings great and smal as well as if your Maiestie were present so that by lawfull examination all may bee finished and nothing left vndiscussed or vndetermined In all things great and small the Pope
Father or Councell for 800. yeares that proueth the Pope superiour to the Prince Bring somwhat to that end or else say you can not and I am answered Phi. I proue the church superior to the Prince which is enough to confute the supreme power that you giue to Princes Theo. And what for the Pope Shall he be superiour to Princes or no Phi. We wil talke of that an other time we be now reasoning of the church which I trust you will grant to be superiour to Princes God saide to the Church The nation and kingdom that will not serue thee shall perish And kinges shall serue thee Theo. This is right the trade of your Apologie to pretende the church and meane the Pope You sawe you were neuer able to proue the Popes vsurped power ouer Princes and therefore you thought it best to put a visarde of the Church vppon the Popes face and to bring him in that sort disguised to the stage to deceiue the simple with the sounde and shewe of the Church And for that cause your fourth chapter neuer nameth the Pope but stil vrgeth The regiment of the church The iudgement of the church The churches tribunall conuerted kingdomes must serue the church and euerie where the church the church and when the Church is confessed to bee superiour to Princes you set vppe the Pope as heade of the Church to take from her all the superioritie power and authoritie which before you claymed for her and so you make the Church but a cloke-bagge to carrie the Popes titles after him but staie your wisedomes the Church may bee superiour and yet the Pope subiect to Princes Kinges may serue the Church and yet commaund your holie father and his gymmoes the parish Priestes of Rome for their turning winding euery way iustly called Cardinals Phi. Can Princes bee supreme and the church their superiour Theo. Why not Phi. If any thing bee superiour Princes bee not supreme Theo. That I denie The Scriptures bee superiour to Princes and yet they supreme the Sacramentes bee likewise aboue them and yet that hindereth not their supremacie Truth Grace Faith Prayer and other Ghostlie vertues bee higher than all earthly states and all this notwithstanding Princes may bee supreme gouernours of their kingdomes and Countries Phi. You cauill nowe you shoulde compare persons with persons and not thinges with persons there may bee thinges aboue Princes and yet they supreme but if anie persons bee superiour then can they not bee supreme Theo. No The Sainctes in heauen and Angels of God bee persons superiour to Princes and yet may Princes bee supreme Phi. Why Theophilus these bee wrangling quiddities for shame leaue them The Sainctes bee superiour in perfection and dignitie but not in externall vocation and authoritie Theo. I like that you saie but if you looke backe you shall see Philander that you giue iudgement against your selfe Phi. Against my selfe Why so Theo. The Church is superiour to Princes for those very respectes which I nowe repeated First because the Saincts in heauen which are part of the church in happines perfection and dignitie bee many degrees aboue worldely states Secondly though the members of the Church bee subiect and obedient to Princes yet the thinges contayned in the Church and bestowed on the Church by God him-selfe I meane the light of his worde the working of his Sacramentes the giftes of his grace and fruites of his spirite bee farre superiour to all Princes Nowe view your consequent The Church in respect of her members in heauen and graces on earth is aboue the Prince ergo the Prince is not supreme but subiect to the Pope This is worse than wrangling You confound things and persons heauen and earth God and man to beare out the Popes pride Phi. You stretch the name of the church whither you list Theo. I may better stretch it to these thinges which I specifie than you restraine it to one onelie man as you doe But why doe I stretch the church farther than I should The Sainctes in heauen bee they not members of the church Phi. They bee membees of the church which is in heauen Theo. And the church in heauen is it an other church from this on earth or the same with it Phi. I thinke it bee the same Theo. You must not goe by thoughtes Sainct Paul saith You are of the same citie with the Sainctes and Ierusalem which is aboue is no straunger to vs but the mother of vs all Cum ipsis Angelis sumus vna ciuitas Dei cuius pars in nobis peregrinatur pars in illis opitulatur Wee saith Austen are one and the same citie of God with the Angels whereof part wandereth on earth in vs part in them assisteth vs. And againe The true Sion and true Ierusalem is euerlasting in heauen which is the mother of vs all She hath begotten vs shee hath nurced vs in part a stranger on earth in a greater part remaining in heauen For the soules of the godly that be dead be not seuered from the church which euen now is the kingdome of Christ. Certaynely Christ hath but one bodie which is his church and of that body since the Sainctes be the greater and worthier part they must bee counted of the same Church with vs. Phi. I stick not at that so much as at the next where you make the word and Sacramentes togither with their effectes and fruites to be parts of the church Theo. I do not say they be members of the Church but thinges required in the church without the which we can neither become nor continue the members of Christ. In a naturall bodie the spirits and faculties be no members yet without them the members haue neither life motion sense nor action So in the mysticall bodie of Christ the members be men but the meanes and helpes to make vs and keepe vs the members of Christ are the word and Sacraments without the which we can neither be planted quickned nor nourished in Christ. For the members be dead if they liue not by faith if they grow not by grace if they cleaue not by loue to their heade and moue at his will by obedience And therefore these thinges though they bee not members yet they bee ioyntes and sinewes vaines and vessels that giue life groeth strength and state to the bodie of Christ which is his church and may iustly bee called the principall powers or partes of his bodie Phi. Powers if you will but not partes Theo. As though the powers of the soule were not partes of the soule Phi. Not properly partes but powers and faculties Theo. What call you partes Phi. Whereof the whole consisteth Theo. And since without these there can be no Church ergo these be partes of the church Phi. You take partes very largely Theo. No larger than I should The foundation of the house is it not a part of the house Phi. Yes a chiefe
part Theo. Faith is the foundation of the church why then should not faith be a part of the church Phi. The Church consisteth of persons not of thinges Men are the church saith S. Augustine Againe The church that is the people of God throughout all nations Theo. I doe not deny the church to bee many times taken for the faithfull on earth but I adde that the graces mysteries and word of God bee contained in the Church and without them the Persons are no Church Our bodies and soules doe not make vs members of Christ but our faith and obedience By Baptisme not by birth doe we Put on Christ and grace not meates establish our heartes They bee the sonnes of God that he led by the spirit of God And if any man haue not the spirit of Christ the same is no member of his Phi. All this is true Theo. The church then consisteth not of men but of faithfull men and they bee the Church not in respect of flesh and blood which came from earth but of trueth and grace which came from heauen Phi. I graunt Theo. Ergo the perfection of Gods giftes the communion of his graces and direction of his word are the verie life and soule of his Church so within the compasse of the church are comprised not onely the persons that bee earthly but also the things that be heauenly whereby God gathereth preserueth and sanctifieth his Church Phi. What doth this helpe you Theo. That when wee saie with S. Ambrose Imperator bonus intra Ecclesiam non supra Ecclesiam est A good Emperour is within the Church not aboue the Church you can conclude nothing out of these words against vs. Phi. Can we not If good Princes bee not aboue the church ergo they be not aboue the prelats pillours of the church Theo. That is no consequent Phi. Why not Theo. By the Church are ment sometimes the places somtimes the persons sometime the things that be cheefely required in the Church Of the place S. Austen saith We cal the Church the temple where the people which are trewly called the Church are conteined that by the name of the Church I meane the people which is conteined we may signifie the place which conteyneth And againe The Church is the place where the Church is assembled for men are the Church The Church as it is taken for persons hath a triple distinction First the Church of glorious and elect Angels and men Ecclesia deorsum ecclesia sursum Ecclesia deorsum in omnibus fidelibus ecclesia sursum in omnibus Angelis There is a Church beneath there is a Church aboue The Church beneath in all the faithfull the Church aboue in all the Angels And againe The right order of confession required that in our creed next to the three persons in Trinity should stand the Church as next to the owner his howse to God his tēple to the builder his citie which must here be taken for the whole not only that part which is a pilgrime on earth but also for that part which abiding in heauen hath euer since it was created cleauen vnto God This part in the holy Angels persisteth in blessednes and helpeth as it ought her other part wandring in earth The temple of God therfore is the holy Church I mean the vniuersall in heauen and earth Secondly the Church is the people of God through out all nations ioyning reckning al the Saints which before his cōming liued in this world The whole Church euerie where diffused is the bodie of Christ and he is the head of it Not only the faithful which are now but also they that were before vs and they that shall be after vs to the end of the world they al pertaine to his bodie The Church is the body of Christ not the church which is here or there but that which is here and euery where throughout the world neither that Church which is at this time but from Abel vnto those which shall hereafter bee borne and beleeue in Christ euen till the end the whole companie of saintes belonging to one Citie which is the bodie of Christ and whereof he is the head Thirdly the Church may bee limited by time and place as the particular Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus and such like Behold saith Austen in the Church there be Churches which be members of that one Church dispersed throughout the world There be many Churches yet one Church and in that sort many that there is but one Somtimes the church importeth besides the persons y◠things in which those persons must communicate before they can be members of the Church as when the church is called the kingdome citie and howse of God whereby wee learne that it is furnished not onely with persons but with all thinges needefull for the seruants citizens and people of God to the conuerting and sauing of their soules In that sense saith S. Paul The kingdome of God is righteousnes peace and ioy in the holy Ghost meaning these be fruits and effects of Gods kingdome which our Sauiour threatned to take from the Iewes The kingdome of God shall bee taken from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof shewing that when the woorde of trueth and seales of grace are taken from vs wee cease to bee the people and Church of God Christ raigneth in his Church by his word and spirit without these men are not the Church An earthly citie must haue vnitie societie regiment sufficiencie for an earthly state the number of men doeth not make a citie if these thinges want Howe much more must the citie of God haue abundance of al thinges profiting to eternall life S. Austen sayth of the house of God which is the Church It is founded by beleeuing erected by hoping perfected by louing noting these three to bee the maine partes in the building of Gods house It is playner than that longer proofe shall neede If wee woulde define the Church wee must comprehend not onely men but other thinges also which may seuer the Church from those that are not the Church and those thinges that are required to the explication are wee say contained in the appellation of the Church The Church is not simply a number of men for Infidels heretikes and hypocrites are not the Church but of men regenerate by the woord and Sacraments truely seruing God according to the Gospell of his sonne and sealed by the spirite of grace against the day of redemption Men thus qualified are the Church and the giftes and graces of GOD that so qualifie them bee not onely the iewels and ornaments wherewith the spouse of Christ is decked but euen the seede and milke whereby like a mother shee conceyueth and nourceth her children The church our mother saith Austen conceiued vs of Christ nourished yea nourisheth vs with the milke of faith Shee conceiueth by the Sacraments
inter se habuerunt were this notwithstanding ioyned in communion pacem in vniuersa Ecclesia tum seruantes tum non seruantes retinuerunt and both sides kept the band of peace in the Catholike Church For the discrepant obseruation of fasting before Easter he saith the like Alij vnum sibi diem ieiunandum esse putant alij duos alij plures alij quadraginta horas Nihilo minus tamen omnes illi pacem inter se retinuerunt retinemus etiamnuÌ„ dissonantia ieiunij fidei concordiam commendat Some fast one daie some two dayes some more some fourtie houres and yet all these continued in peace among themselues and to this day we continue the same and our difference in fasâ—â—â—g commendeth our concord in faith Socrates hath a whole chapter purposely made to shew what diuersitie there was in the Church of Christ about Lent the Lordes Supper marying baptizing praying fasting and such like Ecclesiasticall obseruances and yet all those places and countries parts of the Catholik Church and communicant one with an other in Christian peace and vnitie Operosum molestum fuerit imò impossibile omnes ecclesiarum quae per ciuitates regiones sunt ritus conscribere It were an hard and laborious thing saith he yea an impossible to write al the different customes and manners of the Churches in euerie citie and countrie Qui eiusdem sunt fidei de ritibus inter se dissentiunt They that are of the same faith differ in their rites So that this is no breach of the Christian and Catholike communion which all the faithfull ought to keepe among themselues with their head the author and finisher of their faith Phi. It openeth the gappe to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes and disorders Theo. Why so Because your holy father can not marchandize the soules empt the purses of men as he was wont to do What Sectes Schismes disorders or heresies can there arise if we defend it lawfull for Princes to commaÌ„d for truth within their own Realmes Nay rather hath not the subiecting of Princes to the Popes pride wrought the vtter ruine and decaie of the West Church Where Rulers be many it is easie to finde some good and they wil resist that which is euill and reforme that which is amisse where one ruleth al if he fal as he quickly may he draweth the whole Church into the same danger and error with him Phi. But the successour of Peter can not erre and therefore the Church is safest when it is ruled by him for whose faith Christ praied that it might not faile Theo. Proue that the Pope can not erre and we will graunt not onely this but all your religion besides to be true Phi. What you wil not Theo. The word is spoken accept the condition when you list Till you do we prefer Cyprians iudgement before yours Therefore deare brother saith he writing to Stephanus Bishop of Rome is there a plentifull number of Priestes in the church ioyned togither with the knot of mutuall concorde and bande of peace that if any of our companie make a breach and rent and wast the the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and pitifull Pastours reduce the Lordes sheepe to the flocke againe The number of Rulers in his opinon is no cause of sectes and dissentions but rather a remedie prouided in the Church against disorder and heresie Phi. It maketh all Christian Bishops Priestes and whatsoeuer borne out of the Realme forrainers and vsurpers in all iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall towardes vs that there can be no iurisdiction ouer English-mens soules but proceeding and depending of her soueraigne right therein Theo. Your force is almost spent when you come to these frozen and woodden obiections Wee call those that were borne and liue out of the Realme forrainers What else should wee call them And such as pretend Peters keies to dispose crownes and remoue Princes from their seates ioyning rebellion with remission of sinnes we thinke them vsurpers and abusers of Ecclesiastical iurisdiction A maruelous ouersight in deed We might haue spared you some sharper and quicker termes but by these wee thought good to manifest to the world your iniurious and irreligious drift to be masters of earthly kingdomes by winding and turning Peters keies at your pleasure Phi. Your words exclude Christ his Apostles in as much as they were and be forrainers from hauing any iurisdiction ouer England Theo. It is pitie you can not cauil We striue for iudicial authoritie to depriue Princes you vrge vs with Apostolike power to preach the Gospell and remit sinnes Wee speake of that which is at this present you tell vs what was fifteene hundred yeares since We reason of States in earth you run to Saints in heauen We reiect the Bishop of Rome you wrangle with vs as though wee refused the sonne of God Doth not matter faile you when you flie for helpe to such vnsauory toies Phi. Your oth is so absurdly conceiued that though you ment not to exclude Christ and his Apostles yet in wordes you doe For if No forraine person Prelat State nor Potentate hath nor ought to haue any iurisdiction power superiority preeminence or authority ecclesiasticall or spiritual within this Realme of England surely neither Christ nor his Apostles because they were be forrainers haue or ought to haue any Theo. Not our speaking but your wresting and wrenching of our wordes is far fet most absurd For first where you auouch Christ himself to be a forrainer whoÌ„ we acknowledge to be the right inheritor owner of the whole worlde yea the mighty Lord king of heauen earth in gibing at vs you iest on his birth as if Christ were a forrainer to the Gentiles because he tooke flesh among the Iewes And though you might haue takâ—n some aduantage at his cradle yet you should haue remembred that the Creator is no forrainer to the worke of his handes as likewise the heade is not to the members nor God incarnate to the sonnes of men As for his Apostles in deede whiles they liued on earth they were forrainers but that their spirits now present with God raigning in blisse with Christ bee forrainers is a mad speech of yours no meaning of ours You must send vs word from Rhemes how soules can be French Spanish Scottish or English These with vs be distinctions of couÌ„tries not of souls after death til your new doctrine came wee tooke them to cease With a little helpe I thinke you will make vs some men soules and some women soules you be so skilfull in these conceites Againe might the soules in heauen be called or counted forrainers you must tell vs what ecclesiasticall power authoritie they now exercise on earth We do not affirme that forrainers neuer had any such power in England the Apostles had their commission from
Gods appointment ergo they beare it in all thinges where the sworde must or may be vsed as well spirituall as temporall Phi. No doubt where the sword must or may bee borne they beare it but howe proue you that in spirituall thinges and causes the temporal sword must or may bee vsed Theo. Pitch that for the question and trie how wel you shall speede with it Phi. Wee neuer denyed but in some sort the temporall sword might bee vsed for spirituall thinges and causes as namely to defend the fayth and Canons of the Church and to put them in execution This Princes may do and must doe with their royall power but they may not commaund what they list in ecclesiasticall causes as you would haue them Theo. You snarle stil when you see your selfe brought to the wall What we woulde haue Princes to doe shall soone appeare if you cease from slaundering and keepe to the matter Our tongues ake with telling you that we hold no such opinion and yet you neuer leaue grating at vs as if we did The point that nowe wee stande at is this whether in a Christian common wealth the temporall sworde as you call it that is the publike authoritie of the Magistrate must bee vsed to receiue establish and defende the true faith of Christ and wholesome discipline of his Church and to prohibite displace and punish the contrarie say nay if you dare Phi. Wee neuer ment it Theo. Then in all spirituall thinges and causes Princes onely beare the sword that is haue publike authoritie to receiue establish and defende all poyntes and partes of Christian Doctrine and Discipline within their Realmes and without their helpe though the fayth and Canons of Christes Church may bee pryuately professed and obserued of such as bee willing yet can they not bee generally planted and setled in any kingdome nor vrged by publike Lawes externall punishments on such as refuse but by their consents that beare the sword This is it that wee say refell it if you can Phi. This is not your opinion but ours Wee confesse Princes to bee defenders of the faith and assisters of the Church with their secular might and power you auouche them to bee supreme moderatours and directours of all spirituall thinges and causes without restraint Theo. Wee auouche you to bee Supreme lyars and that which is worse you thinke with facing in time to get some credite to your fabling You finde no such thing in our words nor deedes as you report of vs. We confesse Princes to bee supreme gouernours that is as wee haue often told you supreme bearers of the sworde which was first ordained from aboue to defend and preserue as well goodlines and honestie as peace and tranquillitie amongest men We giue Princes no power to deuise or inuent new religions to alter or change Sacraments to decide or debate doubtes of faith to disturbe or infringe the canons of the church The publike power and outward meanes which God hath vnited and annexed to their swords as namely to commaund by their Edicts and dispose the goods and bodies of such as resist them this power and meanes wee say must be conuerted and vsed first to the seruice and glorie of God next to the profit and welfare of their Realmes that is as much or rather more for thinges spirituall than temporall Phi. If you giue Princes no iudicial nor spiritual power in matters of religiō but an externall and temporall power to permit and establish that which God commaundeth howe can they bee supreme Theo. Supreme they be for that by Gods Lawe they bee not vnder the Popes checke and correction though to leade on the simple sort with a better shewe you conceale that superiority which the Pope chalengeth ouer Princes and enter your whole action for the Church which woord you knew was more gratious and will in no case bee brought to take our meaning right lest you shoulde bee driuen either to proue your assertion which you can not or to confesse ours which you will not And therefore you wrest the word supreme against the very grounds of our common fayth and rules of your priuate speach to make it seeme false and absurde and then as valiant Captaines you wrestle with the fansies which your selues haue deuised fighting thus with your own shadowes you thinke your Seminaries the only lights and lanternes of Christendome but you must go more syncerely to worke before you can winne the cause Phi. Supreme is superiour to all and subiect to none Theo. And so bee Princes superiour to all men within their Realmes and subiect to no man without their Realmes Phi. What superiour to Christ the Church and all Theo. Haue you neuer done with that idle and eluish obiection Wee compare not man with God nor bodies on earth with spirites in heauen but wee conferre mortall men with their like bearing flesh about them which the sworde may touch and in comparison of them wee say Princes are superiour to all men within their dominions Bishoppes and others and subiect to no man without their dominions Prelate nor Pope to bee commaunded corrected and deposed by their tribunals This is the supremacie which wee attribute to Princes that all men within their Territories shoulde obey their Lawes or abide their pleasures and that no man on earth hath authoritie to take their swordes from them by iudiciall sentence or martiall violence Leaue wrangling and rouing and speake directly to this question Phi. I will if you first graunt that your meaning is not so large as your woordes bee Theo. You would fayne seeme with your eloquent nifles to woorke some masteries but it will not bee Our woordes are no larger than our meaning and both be true Phi. Why supreme is superiour to al none excepted no not Christ himselfe The. And what are these phrases the most holy the most mightie the most blessed which you applie to the Pope do they except Christ or no Phi. If nothing else be added they doe not by rigor of comparison but common vse of speach vnderstandeth them of earthly men and alwayes excepteth first God with whom there can bee none compared and next his Saints which be farre from vs in an other and better life Theo. I crie you mercie You may salute your Romish Pharaoh when you will with the most mightie Priest the most blessed father the chiefe Pastor and many such loftie stiles and wee must come after with salt and spoones and conceaue that Christ is excepted though he bee not because your flatteries bee common and if wee to signifie that Princes by Gods lawe bee not vnder the Popes yoke defende them to bee superiour to all men at home and subiect to no mans Courts or Consistories abroade and therfore call them supreme Gouernours of their owne people and Countries you sounde alarme against vs as if wee went about to defeate Christ of his kingdome and disseism
Priesthoode who with his Iron rodde bruseth the pride of Princes that rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters poâ—shard and hath right in his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom al kings shall fall downe and all Nations do him seruice Theo. That the Sonne of God will bruse the pride of those Princes with an Iron rodde which rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters shard and that he hath right both within and without his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom all kings on earth and Angels in heauen shall fall downe and doe him seruice these thinges are vndoubted with vs and brought in by you but onely for a windlace to make the reader cast his eyes on Christ and his kingdome while you closely conuey the Princes Scepter vnder the Popes feete Accursed bee hee that doeth not confesse the supereminent power which the Sonne of God hath ouer all kingdomes ouer all creatures ouer the States and liues bodies and soules of all men Wil you thence inferre the Pope hath the like In sooth masters you must make hard shift before these reasons will bee good Phi. Christs Priestly prerogatiue passing his owne regall dignitie much more excelling all other humane power of the worlde in most ample and exact termes is coÌ„municated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules and secondarily to the rest of the gouernours of the Church in other manner of clauses than any earthly Princes can shewe for their pretensed spirituall regiment Fie on that secular pride wilfull blind heresie so repugning against Gods expresse ordinaunce and yet is of wicked Sect-masters and flatterers vpholden to the eternall calamitie of themselues and of millions of others Theo. This is stale Rhetorike to come with an outcrie when you should make your conclusion Conclude first and rayle after otherwise you shewe your selues to trust more to the slippernes of your tongues than to the soundnes of your cause Phi. Our illation is euident Christ as a Priest bruseth the pride of Princes with his Iron rodde and hath right ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vppe buyld and destroy But Christs Priestly prerogatiue in most ample and exact termes is communicated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules The chiefe Pastor therefore hath the like right ouer all kingdomes to plant plucke vp buyld and destroy Theo. The power which you mention in your first proposition is attributed to Christ not as a Priest but as a king The wordes of the Psalme are very plaine to that end I haue set my king vpon my holy hill of Sion Aske of mee and I will giue thee the heathen for thine inheritaunce and the endes of the earth for a possession to thee Thou shalt crush them with a scepter of Iron and breake them in pieces like a potters vessell S. Iohn applieth the same place to the royal and not to the Priestly power of Christ. I saw the heauen open and beholde a white horse and hee that sate vpon him was called faithful and true and hee iudgeth and fighteth in righteousnes On his head were many Crownes and out of his mouth went a sharpe sword that with it he should smite the heathen and hee shal rule them with a rod of Iron And hee hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written the King of Kings and Lord of Lordes Howe thinke you His horse his Crowne his robe his traine his sworde his stile described in this place expresse they his Priestly or Princely prerogatiue As a Priest hee sacrificed himselfe on the crosse and had his owne blood shed for the remission of sinnes As a King hee subdueth his enemies and maketh them like dust vnder his feete bee they Princes or others Your Maior is therefore false that to bruse kings with an Iron rod and to breake them in pieces like a potters shard is a priuilege of Christs Priesthoode and not of his Princehoode Your Minor that Christs Priestly prerogatiue is communicated in most ample exact termes to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of the Church hath farre lesse trueth in it than your Maior For al the prerogatiue of Christs Priesthood is not communicated to any other Such an high Priest saith S. Paul it became vs to haue which shoulde be holy vndefiled separated from sinners made higher than the heauens who in the end of the world appeared once to put away sinne by the offering vp of himselfe and after that one sacrifice for sinne is set down for euer at the right hand of God hauing obtained eternal redeÌ„ption for vs and being able perfectly to saue them that come to God by him seeing he euer lyueth to make intercession for them These and many such prerogatiues of his Priesthood I hope you will not empart to the Pope lest wee crie fie on your blasphemous hearts and mouthes which set the man of sinne equall with the sonne of God If you restraine your Minor by confessing that not all but some of the prerogatiues of Christes Priesthoode are communicated to others then your conclusion hath no force both your premisses being meere particulars For though Christ gaue some part of his power honour to his Apostles yet this hee gaue not and therefore his gift to them can doe you no good vnlesse you prooue that hee gaue them this prerogatiue amongst the rest which he bestowed on them Phi. Hee sayd to Peter and his successours Whatsoeuer thou bindest on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou losest in earth shall bee loosed in heauen Can you require a more ample graunt Theo. Peter and the rest were to bind and lose the sinnes and soules of men by the woord and sacraments not the Scepters and swords of Princes And so Christ himselfe expoundeth his graunt vnto them Whose sinnes soeuer you remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes soeuer yee retaine they are retayned And in this place you leaue out the first part of the graunt which should direct the whole I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen not of the kingdomes on earth Bernard though he were but of late yeeres yet was he not afraid to tel Pope Eugenius ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra quoniam propter illa non propter has accepistis claues regni caelorum Your power concerneth sinnes and not possessions because yee receiued the keyes of the kingdome of heauen for those thinges and not for these And so Theophilact Vnderstand the keyes which bind and lose to bee the pardoning or punishing of sinnes And so S. Ambrose The right of the holy Ghost consisteth in bynding and losing of sinnes As also Saint Augustine The keyes Christ gaue to his Church that what she loosed in earth should be
loosed in heauen and what she did bind in earth shoulde bee bound in heauen to witte that whosoeuer would not beleeue his sinnes might bee forgiuen in the Church should not haue them forgiuen and whosoeuer would beleeue it and depart from his sinnes by amending his life in the bosome of the same Church shoulde by that faith and conuersion be healed And neuer writer since Christs time did euer extend the power of the keyes vnto any thing saue vnto the forgiuing and retayning of sinnes Phi. No more doe wee this onely we adde that when Princes are bounde in earth for their sinnes they loose that interest which they had in their kingdomes Theo. That position you vndertooke to proue by the holy Scriptures but as yet you be wide you still suppose it and doe not proue it Phi. Now in the newe Testament all Christes sheepe without exception bee they Princes be they poore if they be Christian men are put to Peters feeding gouernement Now the keyes of heauen be deliuered to Christs Vicar in earth to let in to locke out to bind to loose to punish to pardon Now we be coÌ„manded euery one be we kings be we Caesars to obey our Prelats and Pastors and to bee subiect to them as to those that must make accompt to God for our soules wherein what Christian Prince may except himselfe Theo. You role from text to text abusing the woordes and peruerting the sense as you goe and when all is saide you bee euen as neere as you were at first before you began For what if al these places do concerne Princes as well as others wil you thence inferre that princes may be deposed Then these must be your argumentes Princes must bee taught ergo Princes may bee deposed Prieâ—tes may exclude them from the kingdom of heauen ergo likewise from their kingdomes on earth Princes must obey sounde doctrine comming from their Pastours mouthes ergo if they refuse they may be deposed Surely such reasons set not them besides their seates but you rather besides your wittes for what apparance of trueth haue these ridiculous and impious mockeries Feede my sheepe that is depose Princes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdom of heauen that is I will giue thee the thrones of earthly kinges Be aduised by your leaders and yeeld to their good perswasions for they watch ouer your soules that is obey the Pope when he thrusteth you from your goods landes and liues Had you but one dramme of shame or sense in you you woulde neuer sende vs such sottish and vnsauorie sequeles Phi. They be of your framing we sent them not Theo. We annexe the conclusion which you must and would infer to the places which you alleadge and in so doing we can not abuse you Out of the 21. of S. Iohn what woulde you cite but this charge to Peter feed my sheepe In the 16. of S. Matthew what finde you there but the promise of our Sauiour I wil giue thee the keies of the kingdom of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou bindest or losest in earth shal be bound and losed in heauen All the wordes which the 13. to the Hebrewes hath for your purpose are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yâ— is be perswaded by their words and giue place to their admonitions which watch ouer your soules Nowe what your conclusion is and must be neither can any man doubt nor do your selues dissemble For the fift chapter of your immodest and vntrue defence of English Catholikes as you call them proposeth purposely handleth the depriuation of Princes for heresie and falling from the faith So that helpe the matter how you can with your glozes and phrases these be your antecedeÌ„ts and this is your consequent Phi. Well if Peter must feede Princes why may not Peter depose Princes Theo. Taking their Crownes from them is not preaching the Gospell vnto them which Christ ment by feeding Phi. But Peter may correct them as well as feede them and depriuation is but correction Theo. Any Pastor may reproue them if they withstand the trueth that bindeth them in earth shutteth heauen against them But other correction on the goodes landes or bodies of priuate men preachers may not exercise much lesse intermeddle with the Seates and Scepters of Princes Phi. Be we kinges be we Caesars we are commaunded to obey our Prelates and Pastours and to be subiect to them Theo. Princes and all other christians must be reuerent and obedient to the word and Sacramentes which God hath put in the mouthes and handes of his messengers other subiection to Prelates or Pastors is none due Phi. And if they refuse to be subiect to the word or Sacramentes shall not Pastors punish them though they be Princes Theo. Let them sinke in their sinnes and leaue them to God that is punishment enough Phi. Shal they goe no farther Theo. Externall or corporall meanes by losse of life landes or goodes God hath not allowed any Pastour to compell or punish his sheepe withall Phi. Then may Princes freely despise both the word and the Preacher Theo. If you call that freedome to fall into the handes of the liuing God which S. Paul saith is a fearefull thing Whosoeuer shall not receiue you nor heare your wordes when you depart out of that house or that citie shake off the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall bee easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement than for that citie Is not this reuenge sufficient for Princes that turne from the truth vnlesse you also must be fingering of their crownes and treadding on their necks Phi. That would terrifie them more than the threatning of helfire Theo. It may be that contenteth your appetites better but God hath reserued the punishment of Princes to himselfe and not assigned it ouer vnto you Howbeit why doe you wander thus from the question You should proue by the worde of God that Princes may be deposed Why then doe you linger and make so many profers before you come to your purpose Phi. Will you haue a plaine proofe out of the new Testament that Princes may be deposed Theo. That is it wee looked for all this while Phi. Pastours haue full authoritie to forbid vs the companie of heretikes blasphemers and idolaters and such like and not so much as to salute them much more not to obey them Theo. Is this your best discretion We must not be companions with idolaters ergo we must not be subiects to Princes Phi. If they be conuicted of heresie or idolatrie Theo. Put you no difference betwixt familiars and subiectes Phi. If we may not be familiar with them much lesse subiect vnder them Theo. Are you not low drawen when you come with such dregges Phi. Iest not at it but answere it Theo. Be earnest in any case It is a very profound and substantiall reason Phi. Substantial or
and chastise the bodies of such as offende Preachers may shut the gates of heauen against non-repentants Princes may roote them from the face of the earth and let them feele the iust vengeaunce of their sinnes in this worlde This is the power of Princes which wee say must bee directed by Bishoppes but is not subiected to their willes or Tribunals and though the Preachers charge concerne thinges which bee more perfect and excellent yet that is no reason why Bishoppes should corporally correct or depose Princes no more than if Philosophers or schoolemasters shoulde take vpon them to doe the like because they professe to trayne vp others in wisedome and vertue which farre exceede the feeding or clothing of the bodie which seeme to bee the Princes care And yet may you not rashly exclude the Princes function from caring for religion and vertue It is euident that God first ordained and authorized the sworde to punish error and vice and to maintaine trueth and integritie amongst men and therefore the Princes and the Preachers functions by Gods institution shoulde concurre euen in those Ghostly and heauenly thinges which you would chalenge to your selues the Preacher declaring the Prince establishing the word of trueth the Preacher deliuering the Prince defending the Sacraments of grace the Preacher reproouing the Prince punishing the sinnes and offences of all Degrees and States Howbeit wee must confesse the Preachers seruice in these cases excelleth the Princes for that the woorde in the Preachers mouth engendreth faith and winneth the soule vnto God to serue him with a willing mind whereas the sword in the Princes hand striketh onely a terror into men to refraine the outwarde act but refourmeth not the secrets of the heart Phi. When the temporall power resisteth God or hindereth the proceeding of the people to saluation there the spirituall hath right to correct the temporall and to procure by all meanes possible that the terrene kingdome giue no annoyance to the state of the Church Theo. What you want in proofes you make out in woordes Wee haue heard you I know not how often full solemnly affirme that the Spiritual power hath right to correct the temporal whereby you meane that the Pope may depose the Prince but as yet we see you not prooue it Your exquisite and affected vtterance which is the chiefest furniture of your booke and the best support of your cause can not turne hard into soft nor sower into sweete men must haue some better euidence for the depriuation of Princes before they beleeue it than your meretricious and deintie speach Pastours are you say to procure by all meanes possible that the terrene kingdome giue no annoyance to the state of the Church you shoulde haue added by all meanes possible and lawful for by periurie rebellion and slaughter of Princes though it bee possible yet is it not lawfull to procure the welfare of Christes Church If you receiue that addition and auouche it lawfull for Bishoppes to depese Princes you runne to the point which wee first beganne with absurdly presuming and neuer proouing the thing which is called in question Phi. The Church excelleth the terrene state and Domination as farre as the Sunne passeth the Moone the soule the bodie and heauen the earth By reason of which excellencie and preeminence aboue all states and men without exception of Prince or other our Lorde proclaimeth in his Gospel that whosoeuer obeyeth not or heareth not the Church must bee taken and vsed no otherwise than as an heathen Theo. You must needes bee cunning in counting howe many degrees a Priest excelleth a Prince Innocentius the third twelue hundred yeeres after Christ beganne this comparison and proueth it out of the Scripture full like a Pope Thou shouldest haue knowen sayth hee to the Emperour that GOD made two great lights in the firmament of heauen the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night Whereby is meant that GOD made two great lightes that is two great dignities which are the Priest and the Prince for the firmament of heauen that is of his vniuersall Church But that which ruleth the day to witte spirituall thinges is the greater that which ruleth carnall thinges is the lesser that wee should acknowledge as great difference to bee betweene Bishops and Princes as there is betweene the sunne and the moone Your gloze setteth downe and casteth by plaine Arythmetike howe much that amounteth to Therefore sayth hee since the earth is seuen tymes bigger than the Moone and the Sunne eyght tymes bigger than the earth it resteth that the Bishoppe bee fourtie seuen tymes greater than the Prince And yet aduising himselfe better for that his totall summe rose no faster hee sheweth out of Ptolomie that the sunne contayneth the bignes of the moone seuen thousande seuen hundred fourtie foure tymes and so many degrees iumpe is euery Bishoppe aboue euery Prince These paringes and offscouringes of your Decretals you haue swept together and vsing the name of the Church to make the matter more saleable though by the Church you vnderstande as they did the Bishoppe of Rome and his Colledge of Cardinals you perfume their follies with a fewe words of your owne and newe proclaime them for some precious wares but take backe the filth and slime of your vnlearned and ill aduised Canonistes wee looke for grauer and better authorities than either your or their flatteries Phi. Whosoeuer obeyeth not or heareth not the Church must bee taken and vsed no otherwise than as an heathen Theo. I coulde answere you that this place toucheth onely wronges and iniuries done by men to their brethren when as yet there were no Christian Princes And that in these woordes our Sauiour charged his Disciples not to breake the bonde of peace and vnitie with any brother that offered wrong vntill they had first secretly warned them then with witnesses and last of all publikely before the whole multitude of the faithfull where hee and they liued and if after so many lawfull warnings hee ceased not to afflict and vexe his brother the partie grieued should no farther be bound to communicate with him in brotherly loue and charitie no more than hee was with an Ethnike or a Publicane S. Ambrose giueth this note vpon the wordes In te Against thee Pulchrè posuit si peccauerit in te Non enim aequa conditio in deum hominemque peccare The Lorde very well added if hee sinne against thee for the same rule doeth not serue when hee sinneth against God that doeth when hee trespasseth man Saint Hierom likewise If our brother sinne against vs and in any thing doe vs wrong wee haue power to forgiue it yea wee must forgiue it but if a man sinne against God the matter is out of our handes Lest therefore in priuate quarrels and offences men should at their listes forsake the communion and felowshippe of their brethren our Sauiour will haue
three admonitions and the last publike after the which if that take not place we shal be excused before God if we no longer accept him that did vs wrong in the number of our brethren Let him be to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane that is sayth S. Augustine Noli illum deputare iam in numero fratrum tuorum nec ideo tamen salus eius negligenda Do not accompt him in the number of thy brethren and yet his saluation must not bee neglected For the Ethnikes themselues that is heathen men and Pagans wee doe not recken to bee our brethren and yet we seeke to saue them By this you may doe well to erect a Court where euery subiect may sewe his Prince for priuate iniuries and to make your selues Iudges of all such matters that if the Prince refuse your order you may take his Crowne from him Is not this thinke you good diuinitie for a Christian Common-wealth Phi. If hee that will not heare the Church in priuate offences betweene man and man must bee taken and vsed as an heathen how much more he that will not heare nor obey the Church in publike and haynous sinnes against God Theo. Take the place howe you will of priuate or publike iniuries or sinnes against man or against God no such thing is consequent as you would seeme to inferre If hee heare not the Church whosoeuer whensoeuer in what cause soeuer graunt all this that your antecedent may bee the freer from checke or chaunce what will you conclude Phi. He must bee to vs as an heathen Theo. And what then must heathen Princes bee depriued of their Crownes and Scepters Was not Caesar an heathen when our Sauiour willed all men to giue to Caesar the thinges which were Caesars Was hee not an heathen Magistrate before whome Christ stoode when hee sayde Thou couldest haue no power ouer mee vnlesse it were giuen thee from aboue Were they not heathen Princes to whome Peter and Paul required and charged all Christian Princes to bee subiect without all resistance Did not the Church of Christ taught by them so to doe submit her selfe for the space of three hundered yeeres to heathen Princes and those terrible and most bloudie tyrants Phi. We deny not this Theo. You can not If then disobayers of the Church must be vsed no worse than heathens and publicanes ergo they must neither bee spoiled of their goodes nor afflicted in their bodies nor remoued from their seates if they be Princes For these things by Gods Law the Church might not offer to Pagans nor Publicans Phi. This that Christ saith if he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and a Publicane is by the iudgement of S. Augustine more grieuous than if he were slaine with the sword consumed with fier or torne with wilde beastes Theo. And why because the iudgement of God to the which he is reserued shall bee more heauie to him than any humane torments can be And this maketh rather against you than with you For if the neglecter of the Church shal be so grieuously punished at Gods hands why doe you challenge to your selues the corporal correcting and chastising of such as disobay the Church And so Saint Augustine expoundeth himselfe It is by and by added saith he by our Sauiour Amen I say vnto you What you bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen that we should vnderstand how grieuous a punishment it is to bee left vnpunished by man and to be reserued to the iudgement of God Phi. The Church hath decreed that heretikes shall not beare rule ouer Catholikes and this voice of the Church all men are bound to heare vnlesse they will be counted for Pagans and Infidels Theo. First the Church can make no such decree next the Church of Christ neuer made any such Decree Phi. May not the Church make that Decree Theo. Shee may not Her power concerneth the soules of men and not their bodies and neuer goeth beyond the word and Sacraments Shee may not intermeddle with the temporal states and inheritances of Priuate men against their willes much lesse with the thrones and swords of Princes The Church cannot giue leaue that children shall disobay their Parents nor seruants their Masters nor weomen their husbandes because God hath already commanded they shall obay whose precepts the Church is with al reuerence to receiue and with all diligence to obserue and not to frustrate or hinder the least iote of his heauenly will and Testament If any particular places or persons attempt the contrarie they cease to be the Church of GOD in that they wilfully reiect and change the worde of God S. Augustine saith well Non debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere The Church may not preferre her selfe before Christ. Neither may we beleeue the true Churches them selues vnlesse they say and doe those things that are consonant to the Scriptures Yea we must accurse the Angels in heauen if they should do otherwise The whole Church oweth the same dutie to all and euery the precepts of God that ech priuate person doth And therfore shee may not dissolue nor disappoint the least of them Now the Church her selfe is commanded by the mouth of Christ and his Apostles to honor and obay Princes For these precepts be general touch the whole church Giue to Caesar the things that be Caesars Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers Submit your selues to the king as the chiefest For so is the will of God neither Monke Priest Prelate Pope Euangelist or Apostle exempted as in the place where I haue already shewed Ergo shee hath no right to dishonour or depose Princes nor to licence their subiects to resist them at her will and on her warrant which is the grounde that you build on Phi. They be but flatterers of Princes that so say or heretikes that so thinke that the ministers of Christes most deare spouse of his very mysticall bodie his kingdome house on earth whom at his dâ—parture hence he did indowe with most ample commissioÌ„ and sent foorth with that authoritie that his father before gaue vnto him haue no power ouer Princes to denounce or declare them to be violators of Gods and the Churches Lawes nor to punish them either spiritually or temporally not to excommunicate them nor to discharge the people of their oth and obedience towards such as neither by Gods Law nor mans a true Christian may obay Theo. If we knewe not your accustomed brauerie you might somwhat trouble vs with your insolent vanities but now we haue so good experience of your fierce lookes and faint harts that we neede not feare your force Bring somwhat besides your own conceit that the Pope may depose Princes and then call vs flatterers and heretikes at your pleasure If not take heede you proue not presumpteous and stately rebels against God and man I winne you be the
for the Pope was not as earnest to haue him gone but he was as glad to go as willing neuer to returne And therfore to take his farewel he sould all the right title that the Emperour had throughout Italy as Blondus saith omâ—ia vbique concessit ex quibus pecunia abra di potuit passed away euery thing in euerie place by the which he might get any mony And as he did in Italy so did he in germany For laboring to haue his son VeÌ„celaus chosen his successor in the Empire wheÌ„ the electors wold not agree to it because the child had nothing in him fit for so great a calling the Emperor offered euery of the Electours a hundred thowsande poundes to goe through with the choice and so they did And not hauing mony sufficient to defraie such an infinite summe hee pawned the Landes and reuenues of the Empire into their handes till they were paied and so they remaine to this day Hence the Romane Empire came to naught neither was it euer after able to stand vpright the Princes Electors keeping al in their handes and swearing the Emperour when he is first chosen that he shall not claime such things as they haue of the Empire in morgage Vencelaus for whom his father paied 600000. pounds to haue him Emperour proued so vnprofitable for the place that the electours when Charles was deade of their authoritie put him from the crowne and set an other in his steede Some Princes of other countries you might repeate which I omit no man doubteth but your holy Fathers pride and arrogance serued him to venter on meaner Princes as well as on Emperours this is it that wee stand on for a thowsande yeares there was no such thing vsed nor offered in the church of Christ and since that time though Popes haue beene very forwarde to depose Princes you shall neuer shewe any Prince that acknowledged or obeyed that sentence yea none of their people vnder them nor of the borderers about them embraced those iudgementes but such as had secrete quarelles against them or sought to gaine some part of their kingdoms from them The rest of their subiects neighbours honoured them as Princes notwithstanding your furious lightning and thundering from Rome as I haue shewed by many specialties from the time of Henrie the fourth to these our dayes and an infinite number of your owne side haue by deedes and wordes boldly and sharpely reproued that insolent presumption And therefore if you doe any good in this cause you must goe higher and bring vs elder examples that Bishops of Rome haue deposed Princes than these violent and tragicall vproares of later Popes blinded with errour and puffed with pride who to compasse their vngodly desires haue ouerwhelmed the earth with fraude and force with periurie and iniquity with battaile bloodshed like furies of hel not like teachers of truth or Pastors of mens soules Could you proue tenne thowsand such attempts it would relieue you litle we may not leaue the manifest commaundements of God constant obedience of Christes church for so many hundreths and allow of those hatefull and heathenish deuises which the sonne of perdition hath lately broched Phi. Will you yeeld to an elder example if it be brought you Theo. Reason we know the man before we reuerence his act Phi. It shal be Gregorie the great first of that name whome you confesse to haue beene both learned and holy He being many hundreth yeares before Gregorie the seuenth and our speciall Apostle practised the poinct we now stand on and therefore likely to be beleeued of all reasonable men Theo. Did Gregorie the great euer depose Princes Phi. That he did Theo. Name the Prince which he deposed and winne the field Phi. He deposed them before hand whatsoeuer they were that shoulde at any time after to the worlds end impugne his priuilege Theo. Then he deposed princes not only before they were Crowned but also before they were conceiued of their mothers Phi. He adiudged they should be deposed that so offended though actually he deposed none In the forme of his priuilege graunted to S. Medardes Monasterie thus he decreeth Si quis Regum Antistitum Iudicum vel quarumcunque personarum secularium huius Apostolicae authoritatis nostrae praeceptionis decreta violauerit cuiuscunque dignitatis vel sublimitatis sit honore suo priuetur If any King Prelate Iudge or what other secular person soeuer shall transgresse this decree of our authoritie and commaundement of what preeminence of highth soeuer he be let him be depriued of his dignitie Theo. Why stoppe you there and goe no farther Phi. I neede not here is enough for my purpose Theo. Yet reade on the rest or if you will not I will Cum Iuda traditore Domini in inferno inferiori damnetur and let him be damned with Iudas the traytour in the nethermost hell Phi. There is nothing in this against vs. Theo. You might the better haue rehearsed it But think you that Gregorie did damne men to hel or reserue you that power only to Christ Phi. None can cast body and soule into hell fire but only God Theo. Doth Gregorie take Gods office from him Phi. No but he meaneth to terrifie them with this kinde of curse and praieth it may fal on their heades if they infringe his godly actes Theo. Then as Gregrie had no power to condemne Princes to hel though he threaten it to them no more had he right to depose Princes though he wish their ouerthrow if they frustrate his decrees It is therefore AN IMPRECATION or curse which in the like case the meanest founder that is may lay on the greatest Prince that shall be borne without any iudiciall authoritie It is no depriuation neither prosecuted nor purposed by the Bishop of Rome Phi. He saith Let him be depriued of his dignitie Theo. And know you not that is the optatiue mode by the which Gregorie wisheth and praieth it may come to passe but neither pronounceth nor perfixeth any such iudgement Phi. If it may come to passe then Princes may be deposed Theo. God hath many wayes to displace the mightie from their seats to whom Gregorie praieth for vengeance though the Pope be not the doer Phi. If this bee but a wish euerie doner may doe as much Theo. They be the verie woordes wherewith euerie doner doth strengthen his endowment And euen in this place Gregorie is not alone Thirtie Bishops of diuers cities subscribed to this graunt and curse in the selfe same wordes that Gregorie did Theodoricus the King and Brunichildis the Queene vsed the same manner of subscription that the Bishop of Rome did and the generall comprisement that presently followeth sheweth the wordes that went before to be but curses Omnium maledictionum anathemate let him be loden with al those heauie curses wherewith Infidels and
and hee that was kept off was no Prince either by discent or by choice but one that aspired to the crowne by killing the king and abusing the Queene in most haynous manner In which case if the Patriarch had offered his life rather than suffered such an one to approch to the Lords table he had done but his dutie Phi. Would you now haue bishops rebell Theo. You thinke so much on it you can not choose but talke of it I said no such thing the common wealth had to doe with the crowne and not the Bishoppe that if they gaue hee might not denie but as for diuine seruice and Sacraments the Bishoppe might well dâ—me them to that infamous adulterer and murderer Phi. You may perceiue by that which the Patriarch of Constantinople sayd to Isaac Commenus what sway the Bishop of that citie bare in crowning the Emperour He told the Prince plainely that as by his handes hee receiued the Empire so if he gouerned not well by him it should be taken from him againe Theo. We may perceiue by that which you bring both the pride of the Patriarch and the falshood of your dealing This Bishoppe was a ringleader in the rebellion wherein Michaell Stratiotes the former Emperour was displaced and Isaac Commenus exalted in his steade and when the newe Prince happened to denie the prowde and seditious Patriarch a request which hee made hee brast out in great rage and tolde him that as hee had holpen him by his wicked conspiracie to the Crowne so would he by like meanes helpe him from it An example as fit for your doinges as you coulde possibly light on that a Priest should tel his Prince he would thrust him out of his seate by the head and shoulders Philand If hee gouerned not well hee woulde take the Crowne from him Theo. If hee gouerned not well is your addition and misconstruction of your Author the storie lieth as I report it The woordes of Zonaras are Neque verò Patriarcha superbia illi cedebat sed imperare illi volebat aâ— si quando non impetrasset quae petierat egrè ferebat increpabat minabatur denique quemadmodum imperium illi contulisset ita se idem illi orepturum The Patriarch yeelded not a iote in pride to the prince and if at any time hee missed of the requestes which hee made hee disdayned and cast it in the princes teeth threatned that as hee had promoted him to the kingdome so hee woulde take it from him Nowe in what sort hee with others conspired for Isaac Commenus against Michael Zonaras sheweth in this page before And in trueth hee was ledde with the same spirite that Hildebrande was liuing at the same time with him and sitting at Constantinople whiles the other raigned in Rome and had the very same euent of his pride which Hildebrande had the Greeke Prince being not able to beare the Patriarches insolencie and therefore banishing him where for spite and anger hee shortly after dyed Philand Likewise when kinges that before were infidels doe enter by Baptisme into the Church they submitte their scepters to Christ and consequently make them-selues subiect and punishable if they reuolt from their fayth and promisâ— Theoph. When Kinges by Baptisme put on Christ they submitte their scepters and soules to the woorde and will of Christ but what this auayleth the Pope I see not except you assume that your Holy Father is Christ and so the subiection professed by Kinges vnto Christ must be yeelded to your Romish Antichrist which were very farre fet and skant worth the cariage Phi. If they reuolt from their fayth they bee punishable by reason of their former subiection vnto Christ. Theo. Yea verily and that not onely in this worlde if it please him but in the next also with euerlasting paines if they repent not Philand If they bee punishable in this world then may they be depriued Theo. Doth Christ vse no punishmâ—â—t but depriuation or euer read you that in this life Christ sententially deposed any Prince though hee might haue punished many Phi. I meane they may bee depriued by men if they reuolt from their promise made to Christ. Theoph. Your owne meanings bee your best argumentes otherwise I see no strength in this reason Princes are punishable if they breake their fayth giuen to Christ Ergo by men and if by any man ergo by the Pope This is leaping logike of all that euer I heard Philand They submitted them-selues in Baptisme to bee punished by depriuation if they kept not fayth and trueth with Christ. Theo. If you shoulde not eate till you prooue that assertion you shoulde fast a lent not of dayes but of yeeres It is a wicked error to say that any priuate man in Baptisme must or doeth submitte him-selfe to the violent and corporall correction of his flesh or to the temporall losses of land or life which you would fasten on Christian Princes by vertue of their Baptisme Philand Vppon these conditions and none other Kinges bee receiued of the Bishoppe that in Gods behalfe annoynteth them which othe and promise being not obserued they breake with GOD and their people and their people may and by order of Christ his supreme minister their chiefe Pastor in earth must needes breake with them heresie and infidelitie in the Prince tending directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiectes and notoriously to the annoyance of the Church and true religion for the defence of which kinges by GOD are giuen Theoph. Againe you leape from the baptising to the crowning of Princes and because at their admission into the Church they promised to renounce the Dyuell and his woorkes but not their swoordes and scepters which are of GOD you range to their coronations and tell vs in great state that the Bishoppes which annoynted them in Gods behalfe did not receiue them to bee kinges but on these conditions as though it were in the handes of Bishops to receiue and reiect Kinges and to prescribe them conditions of taking and leauing the Crowne Faine you woulde encroche vpon Kinges by the Bishoppes act and oyle that in the ende you might possesse the Pope with a full interest to dispose their Crownes at his pleasure but such as bee wise will looke to your fingers and keepe you short of that desire The solemne rites of coronations haue their ende and vtilitie but no direct force nor necessitie They bee good admonishmentes to put Princes in mynde of their duetie but no increasements of their dignitie For they be Gods annointed not in respect of the materiall oyle which the Bishoppe vseth but in consideration of their power which is ordayned of the sword which is authorized of their Persons which are elected by GOD and endued with the giftes of his spirite for the better guyding of his people If oyle be added it is but a ceremonie representing that to
Athanasius writing Theo. By this let the world iudge both of your cause and cunning A thing bone by the confession of your owne stories aboue 760. yeares after Christ vnder Constantine the 5. not long before the seconde Nicene councell is coloured with Athanasius name as written by him that was deade 400. yeares before the matter happened and not onely published with his writinges but inserted into the second Nicene councell as his worke whereas the Bishops then assembled were all aliue when this outrage was attempted by the Iewes not 24. yeares before the calling of that Synode Such fables and forgeries doe well become the quarell you haue in hand but they wil neuer proue your hauing of images to be catholike or Apostolike Phi. In deede our stories doe mention such an accident at the time which you name but if it be true though it be not so old as Athanasius we care not Theo. He that wil forge must not stick to ly lying is the very ground of forging and of a lyar we looke for no truth And yet this tale of Nicodemus Gamaliel Iames Simeon and Zacheus deliuering an image from hand to hand is not the assâ—rtioÌ„ of the author but the rude report of a poore ignorant man fathering his image on them that neuer were christians as Gamaliel was not and that 700. yeares after their deathes without any proofe saue onely by hearesay By such legends you may soone proue what you will but he that hath any spark of christian courage or wisedom will vtterly abhor these lies as feeling the grosnesse of them with his fingers Phi. Since you so much dislike our proofes that the Apostles and the Primatiue church had images can you proue they had none Theo. Doth your discretion serue you to put vs to proue the negatiue Ph. You affirm they had none our demaund is how you know that Theo. You can not proue they had and that is cause sufficient for vs to auouch they had not Phi. Is that all you can say Theo. If it were you can not voide it but we haue euident proofes that the church of Christ succeeding the Apostles had none and thence we conclude the Apostles deliuered none otherwise the church would not so soone haue reiected the tradition of the Apostles Phi. You may be sure they would not Theo. And since they did reiect Images ergo it was no Apostolike tradition Phil. Howe proue you they did reiect them Theo. The christians were charged by the Pagans for hauing no images and they not onely confessed so much but also defended it as most agreeable with the law of God In Arnobius the heathen say of the christians Cur nullas aras habent nulla tenepla nulla nota simulachra why haue they no altars no temples no open or knowen images In Origen Celsus sayth Hij non patiuntur vel templa vel aras vel simâ—lachra statuas intueri The christians can not abide to beholde temples or altars or images In making their answere the Christians agnised they had none and alleadged the law of God to proue they should haue none ClemeÌ„s sayth Nobis non est imago sensilis de materia sensili sed quae percipitur intelligentia We haue no image that is materiall and seene with eyes but onely such as is conceiued with vnderstanding And addeth this reason We are plainely forbidden to vse that deceitfull art of making images Thou shalt not make saith the Prophet the likenesse of any thing The Christians and Iewes saith Origen when they heare the lawe of God thou shalt not make to thy selâ—e any grauen image nor the likenesse of any thing neither shalt thou bowe downe to them nor serue them not only refuse these teÌ„ples Altars images of God but if neede be choose rather to dy And extending this as well to the image of the true God as of those that were no gods he sayth Nec simulachra quidem nos veneramur quippe qui Dei vt inuisibilis ita incorporei formam nullam effigiamus We reuerence not images as making no figure to God who is inuisible and without all bodily shape So Arnobius What image shall I make to God whose image if you rightfully iudge man himselfe is And Lactantius as you hearde before affirmed There coulde bee no religion wheresoeuer there was an image Phi. These spake not of the christian images but of the Pagans such as in deede we may neither worship nor haue Theo. They speake namely of themselues which were christians confessing they neither had nor might haue any image of God Phi. Not of the Godhead but of Christ his Saincts they might notwithstanding these words it is euident by Eusebius they had For the woman that was cured by Christ of the bloody issue erected an image of brasse vnto him in Cesaria where she dwelt vnder the feete of which image grewe a strange herbe healing all diseases as soone as it touched the brasen skirt of his garmeÌ„t This image remained togither with the herbe to the time of Eusebius after till Iulian the Apostata in spite of Christ brake it in peeces set vppe his own image in place thereof which God strake with fire from heauen in reuenge of his sonne so dishonored by Iulian threw the head of Iulians image from the body pitching it with the face downward into the earth blasting the rest with lightning for a terror to all that euer after should offer the image of his Sonne any reproach or misuse as you may read in Sozomene And this example is a faire warning for you that haue beheaded burned so many images of Christ his Sainctes within this Realme Theo. This image the woman that was healed erected in the citie where she dwelt as a monument of the mighty power which our Sauiour had shewed on her she being then an heathen not instructed in religion thinking thereby to prouoke others to harken after him seek for his help as she had done And when many trusted not her words it pleased God not only to ratify her report as true but to shewe the Gentiles by the wonderfull euent of the herbe there growing what vertue was in his sonne to cure all their griefs thereby to lead them the rather to beleeue in him that they might be saued by him In this wee dispraise not the womans purpose minding to celebrate the benefit which shee receiued at our Sauiours handes the best way that she then knew we honor the goodnes of God in preparing the hearts of vnbeleeuers by meanes of this miracle to bee ready to imbrace his Sonne detesting the wickednes of Iulian that to discouer his contempt of Christ and malice against Christ whose faith he had openly reâ—ounced amongst other villanies which hee offered caused the Pagans in a triumph to draw this image about the streetes breaking it in
reuerent estimation regard of them that they be not despised or abused although they be but signes So that water in baptism and the creatures of breade and wine in the Lordes supper which are the two examples here mentioned are to be reuerenced as things that be sacred by the word and ordinaÌ„ce of God but not to be adored and honored for the things themselues whose signes they are that were a miserable seruitude or rather the right death of the soule as Austen noteth And that the first teachers of truth remoued al Images as vnprofitable signes to serue God with the words before do plainly shew For speaking of the difference between the Iewes and the Gentils when they should be conuerted vnto Christ he saith ChristiaÌ„ liberty finding the Iewes vnder profitable signes to wit the rites Ceremonies of the Lawe did interprete the meaning of them and so by directing the people to the things themselues deliuered them from the seruitude of the signes but finding the Gentiles vnder vnprofitable signes for that they worshipped Images either as Gods or as the signes and resemblaunces of Gods ipsa signa fruâ—trauit remouitque omnia shee wholy remoued and frustrated the signes themselues that is shee would not suffer them to serue the true God with any such signes as bodily shapes and Images were Your honouring of Images is reproued as you see and not releeued by S. Augustines Rule And since the Lawe of God expressely and â—treitly chargeth you not so much as to bowe your bodies or knees to the likenesse of any thing in heauen or earth which is made with handes consult your owne consciences whether you may with your respects frustrate or with your routes ouerbeare the distinct and direct voice of God himselfe in his own Church And if you be not giuen ouer into a reprobate sense you wil say no. Now that which is against the Law of God can neither be Christian nor Catholike Your Doctrine therefore of bowing and kneeling to Images is repugnant both to the precepts of God and to the generall auncient resolution of Christs church your adoring them with diuine honour is a sacrilegious and flagitious as well noueltie as impietie Phi. You must not looke that we should defend the sayings doings of all that haue takeÌ„ part with the church of Rome If Thomas waded too far in worshipping Images if Gerson mistooke S. Augustine if the later Councell of Nice denied or strained some of the ancient Fathers you must not chalenge vs for their ouerâ—ightes The. We chalenge you for vaunting your selues to be Catholikes when in deede you doe nothing but smooth and sleike the corruptions and inuentions of later ages against the right ancient faith of Christs church The discent of Images with their adoration how late it began how often it varied how far at length it swarued froÌ„ the Primatiue original profession of the christiaÌ„ catholik faith we haue spent somtime to examine Let vs now approch to your praiers in a straÌ„ge toung which haue a great deal lesse shew of catholicism thaÌ„ images had yet are as egerly defended by you as images were Phi. In the Latine toung we haue praiers in a strange toung we haue none you rather that haue turned scriptures church seruice secretes for your pleasures into the English tongue make your praiers in a strange and vnwonted speach to catholik earesâ— The. To English meÌ„ the English toung is not strange Phi. I know they vnderstand it but I call it strange because they were not woont to haue the publike praiers of the Church in their mother toung Theo. In cases of religion we must respect not what men haue but what they should haue beene vsed to Cyprian saith well Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas erroris est Custome without trueth is but the long continuance of error so Tertullian Quodcunque aduersus veritatem sapit hoc erit haeresis etiam vetus consuetudo Whatsoeuer is against the trueth it must bee counted heresie though it be an old Custom The Councell of Carthage where Cyprian was resolued thuâ— The Lord saith in the Gospel I am trueth he said not I am custom Trueth therefore appearing let custom yeeld to truth Phi. That councel erred in neglecting the old custom which the church obserued Theo. But yet their generall assertion which I alleage was so strong that S. Augustine saith to those very wordes Plane respondeo quis dubitet veritatis manifestae debere consuetudinem cedere I plainly answere who doubteth but that custom must yeeld to the trueth appearing Phi. Neither doe we doubt of that but how proue you this to be a manifest trueth that the people of this Land must haue their diuine seruice in the English tongue Theo. It is the manifest precept of him that said I am trueth and witnessed in the Scripture which is the worde of trueth Philan. In what place there Theo. Make not your selfe so great a stranger in the Scriptures as if you knew not the place Phi. You meane the 14. Chapter of the first epistle which S Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth Theo. I doe what say you to it Phi. Mary this we say The reader may take a tast in this one point of your deceitfull dealing abusing the simplicitie of the popular by peruerse application of Gods holy word vpon some smale similitude equiuocatioÌ„ of certaine termes against the approued godly vse and trueth of the vniuersall Church for the seruice in the Latine or Greeke tongue which you ignorantly or rather wilfully pretend to be against this discourse of S. Paul touching strange tongues Theo. And hee that marketh your shifting and facing in this one point shall need no farther tast of your dealing Phi. If you like not that which we say refel it Theo. Can your selues tell what you say Phi. You shall well find that when we come to the matter Theo. First then heare what the Apostle saith and after you shal haue leaue to say what you will Instructing the Church of Corinth thus he saith And now brethren if I come to you speaking with strange tongues what shall I profite you If a truÌ„pet giue an vncertaine sound who wil prepare himself to the battel So likewise you by the tongue except you vtter words of easie vnderstanding how shal it be knoweÌ„ what is spoken For you shal speake in the aire There are for example so many kindes of tongues in the worlde and none of them is without sound Except I know the power and signification of the speach I shall be to him that speaketh barbarous and he that speaketh shall be barbarous to me Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue pray thâ—t he may interpret For if I pray in a tongue not vnderstood my spirite praieth but mine vnderstanding is without fruit What is it then I wil pray with the
tooke a stocke for their father and a stone for their maker They thought they worshipped God and not the Image Philand But wee bee sure that Christ made this to bee him-selfe when hee sayde this is my body Theo. He sayd I am the doore I am the vyne and yet neither doore nor vyne are really and personally the sonne of God Philand Hee spake those things in parables and by way of resemblance this he spake in plaine trueth without all figures and therefore this must bee substantially turned into Christ though that bee not Theoph. You make your reall and corporall presence a refuge for your erroneous and absurde assertions But if that bee false as well as the rest then are you plunged ouer head and eares in the myre and sinke of sinne and heresie Phi. If God bee not in heauen wee shall neuer come there but if hee bee wee can not misse our way For hath the whole Church thinke you lyen in sinne and heresie till your newe doctrine came lately from Geneua Theo. In deede I thinke this reason is euen as good as the most of those which your friendes haue freshly sent vs from Rhemes but abuse not your selues with such stately follies GOD may well bee in heauen and is no doubt and yet you neuer come there for refusing the right way thither Philand Wee goe the same way that the whole church since Christes time went before vs. Theoph. This pride so bewitcheth you that you can not see howe farre you bee fallen from the fayth of Christes Church which was in auncient and vncorrupted ages Philand As though wee did not ioyne with them in this and all other poyntes of Religion Theoph. You ioyne with them as darke-night doeth with day-light Philand Haue wee not their full consent for those thinges which you impugne Theoph. As namely for adoration of the sacrament where you pretend the whole Church and shewe not one man that euer taught of the Sacrament that It should bee adored Philand Was not the whole Church taught to say vnto It and crie vpon It Domine non suum dignus Lorde I am not woorthie Theo. Prooue that this or any other inuocation or adoration was vsed TO IT as you say and you shall goe free for all Phi. Origen ho. 5. in diuers When thou eatest sayth hee and drinkest the body and blood of our Lorde hee entereth vnder thy roofe Thou also therefore humbling thy selfe say Lord I am not woorthy So sayde S. Chrysostome in his Masse Theoph. This they were taught to say but to what were they taught to say it Philand To the Sacrament Theo. Who sayth so besides you Phi. Origen and Saint Chrysostome Theoph. Perhaps they taught the people that kinde of prayer when they did communicate at the Lordes Table but did they teach the people to say so to the Sacrament Philand Euen thus to crie VPON IT and thus to say VNTO IT Lorde I am not woorthie Theo. We would gladly heare that of their owne mouthes wee trust not yours Philand Looke the places and you shall find it to bee as wee say Theo. We haue viewed the places and find you to be Lyars Phi. Are not those Origens words which we rehearse Theo. Origen hath the words which you cite but he teacheth not the people to direct them to the Sacrament Philand To whome then Theoph. To whome but to christ the sonne of God Phi. And he is in the sacrament Theo. Their assertions not your additions are the thinges we aske for That these and all other partes of diuine honor are due to christ no christian maie doubt but that the same maie be directed and applied to the host that is your blasphemie no father â—uer taught it Origen discussing the Centurions fact and faith telleth his audience that Christ entereth vnder the roofes of all beleeuers two waies first by his ministers then by his mysteries Intrat nunc Dominus sub tectum Credentium duplici figura vel more The Lorde euen at this daie entereth the roofe of those that beleeue after two sortes or manners For when holie and acceptable pastours of the Church to GOD enter our howsen euen then and there the Lord entereth by them and be thou so affected as if thou receiuedst the Lorde himselfe An other waie is when thou receiuest that holy meate and eatest and drinkest the bodie and blood of the Lord for then the Lorde entereth thy roofe also Thou therefore humbling thy selfe imitate the Centurion and saie Lord I am not worthie that thou shouldest come vnder my roofe This must be said as well when the preacher entereth our house as when we receiue the sacrament for it is plaine by Origen that christ commeth vnder our roofe in both these cases and we are not worthie in either of them or in any other case that the sonne of God should come vnder our roofe As then it were madnes to deifie the Preacher because Christ voutsafeth to come in him and with him or to salute him with the diuine honour due to christ and to say to a mortall man Lord I am not worthy so can it be no lesse impietie to saie to the dead creatures in which or with which we receiue christ from his table Lord I am not worthie Phi. Doe you thinke that Christ is none otherwise in the Sacrament than he is in a mortall man Theo. He is more truelie reallie and naturallie in those men that be his members than he is in the elements that be vsed at his table Phi. O shamefull heresie Is anie mortall man transsubstantiated into Christ as the elements are by power of consecration Theo. That which I saie is most true men are the members of Christ bread is not Christ abideth in them and they in him in the breade he doeth not he will raise them in the last day the breade he will not they shall raigne with him for euer the breade shall not And therefore take backe your shamefull error of transsubstantiating the elements into christ since he is more really in vs than in the pixe or the chalice and yet we are not substantiallie conuerted into him Phi. I will neuer beleeue this whiles I haue a daie to liue Theo. Neither doe I meane in this place to enter that discourse yet for the confirmation of it I send you to Chrysostome Cyrill and Hilarie who will teach you so much in plaine wordes that christ is in vs reallie naturallie corporallie carnallie substantiallie which of the Sacrament you shall neuer be able to prooue For the sacrament is no part of his mysticall bodie as we are and therefore we are knit vnto him euen by the trueth of his and our nature flesh and substance as members of the same bodie to their head the Sacrament is not but onelie annexed as a signe to the heauenlie grace and vertue of Christ mightilie present and trulie entering the soule of euerie man that
els by feeding mice with miracles and leaâ—ing meâ— in manâ—â—â—â— dauâ—ger â—â—â—pen Idolatrie For what is it say you that miâ—â—â—â—â— â—hen they lâ—ght on your host what aunswer make you to this question that your master proposed and your pewfellowes striue for Will you say with Guiâ—mundus and Walden two principall vpholders of your new found presence that when mice gnaw the Sacrament it is but a trick of deceptio visus wee thinke they doe so but in deede they doe not so she poore mice be otherwise occupied our sight is deceiued They must needes be verie louing and deuout chickens of Antichrists broad that will suffer you to pul out their eies and â—elceâ—e that you say though they see the contrarie To such men you may soone perswade what Religion you list but the wise reader will neuer be led with such monsterous fansies Will you take part with Innocentius and others that statim desinit esse Sacramentum ex quo à mure tangitur it ceaseth to be a Sacrament as soone as anie mouse or other â—east toucheth it and the bodie of Christ leaueth that host for euer Then besides that you prouâ—de miracles to faâ—te mice and nourâ—sh them with empty shewes you must before you may worship any such host as hath beene reserued which is common with you you musâ— I say caâ—l beastes birds wormes and flies coâ—â—m nobis and examine them by Commission whether any of them touched your sacrament Else how can you be suâ—e that Christ is there present For if your Sacrament were but pecked by some bird or mâ—lâ—d by some â—â—â—se Christ is departed and the shape of bread is adored by you with diuine honour as if it were the sonne of God which is palpable and indefensable 〈◊〉 â—â—â—ry Like you neither of these bold and blind ghesses Indeed they be rather sickâ—â—â— dreames than graue mens answersâ— yet if these please you not you must 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 be driuen to say with Alâ—xander and Antonius that the flesh of Christ descendeth into the bellies of myâ—â— dogges and swinâ— as well as into the bodâ—es of wicked and vngodly â—eceiuers which whether it be worse thaâ— carnall and caperniticall let the sober and discreeâ—e â—eader pronounce for 〈◊〉 Phi. You may not doubt in 〈◊〉 church but some things are amâ—sse Theo. It goeâ—h haâ—d wiâ—h your church when these 〈…〉 amisse Farre otherwise did the learned and auncient fathers thinke and speake of this mysterie They taught christ to be present not in â—â—â—sh but in grace not in reall and corporall existence but in spirituall and fruitfull â—ffâ—cience They prepared for â—â—m not their iawes and bellies but their mindes and harts They feâ— him not downe from heauen to spred him on a patene and shrowd him in a pixe but exalted all men to mount alâ—ft with the winges of faith and there aboue in heauen not here belowe in earth to behold the brightnes of his glorie and tast the sweetnes of his mercie In proposing vrging repeating which doctrine wee finde them most carefull and diligent most earnest and vehement and that if nothing else will serue to conuince your nouelties For as that part of man which eateth the flesh of Christ euerteth your reall presence because no locall or corporall substaunce can enter or seede the soulâ— and the trueth of Christes flesh in this mysterie by the generall consent of all ages and churches doeth enter and feede the soule so the place whither wee must ascend before wee can eate the Lords flesh doth clearly confute the same Where Christ is present thither must our hearts be directed when they are prepared to eate Christ But the church of God in her publike prayers the catholike Fathers in their writinges neuer taught the faithfull to sâ—t their affections on the thinges before them but to lift vp their hearts from the Lords â—able to the highest heauens where Christ sate at the right hand of his Father Ergo neither shee beleeued nor they professed that Christ was really closed vnder the formes of bread wine Which point dislike you Philander or which thinke you best to deny Shoulde our hearts be turned from the place where Christ is present I trust you bee more respectfull of God and your christian dutie than to say that the mindes and hearts of christian men may bee turned from Christ or from the place where Christ is Should the people turne their hearts to your host and chalice looking there to find Christ Why then did S. Paul teach vs to seeke those thinges which are aboue where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God and to set our affections on heauenly thinges not on thinges which are on earth as where Christ is not to be found Why did the primatiue church in this sacrament alwayes criâ— Sursum corda Lift vppe your hearts and the rest answere habemus ad Dominum we lift them vppe vnto the Lord Why did the learned and ancient Fathers teach the godly not to regard the thinges proposed on the Lordes table but to mount aboue the skies with the spirituall winges of faith there to fasten on the Lordes fleshe as Eagles and there to receiue the cup of the new Testament Were the fleshe of Christ really placed on your altars as you tel vs why should they skip him there corporallie present and leade the people to seeke for him so farre that their bodies by no meanes coulde attaine to the place but onely their mindes and spirits Ambrose There is a bodie of which it was saide my fleshe is meat in deede About this bodie are the true Eagles which houer about it with spirituall winges The soules of the righteous are therefore compared to Eagles because they flie high and leaue these places or thinges below We touch not Christ with corporall handling but by faith Therefore neither on the earth nor in the earth nor after the flesh ought we to seek Christ if we will find him Chrysostom That dreadfull sacrifice doth lead vs to this that in this life becomming Eagles we should flie vp to heauen or rather aboue the heauens For where the carcasse is thither wil the Eagles Nowe the Lordes body is the carcasse by reason of his death Eagles he calleth vs to shew that he which commeth to this bodie must flie aloft and haue nothing to do with the earth but euer mount vpward behold the bright sun of righteousnes with the piercing eie of his mind This table is for agles not for â—houghs Ierom Let vs ascend with the Lord into the great parlour dâ—cked cleane aboue in heauenâ— receiue at his hands the cup of the new Testament there keepe our passouer with him Paschasius If we be willing to receiue these things with Christ let vs ascend aboue into the parlour of life Let vs mount vpward because they which staie below on earth drinke not sweete wine with Christ
but the poyson of Dragons vnhappily with Iudas Therefore sayth Paul sauor you those things which are aboue not the things which are on earth For this cup of the new Testament is not any where receiued but aboue in heauen Where the carkaâ—â—e is thither will the Eagles resort that is saith Austen into heauen whither froÌ„ hence Christ caried with him the body which hee tooke in the nature of man Had we no better ground to refuse that your corporal cating reall presence this were sufficient For where without question the flesh of Christ must bee locally present in your host before it can bee really pressed with teeth the sacred scriptures catholik fathers affirm that the true flesh of Christ is absent from earth verily present in heauen whither we must and may send our harts and faithes to be partakers of him our hands mouthes we can not sende therefore your late deuised doctrine must needes be dissident from the scriptures and vnknowen to the former purer church of christ I see saith Stâ—uen the heauens open and the sonne of man standing at the right hand of God whom the heaueÌ„s saith Peter must contain vntil the time that al things be restored Phi. As though he might not also be in earth Theo. Being ascended into heauen he is no more in earth if that be true which the Angels said to his Disciples This Iesus which is taken vp from you into heauen shall so come as you haue seene him go into heauen ergo when he ascended into heauen he was taken vp from them and not left with them and so the Lord himselfe before had taught them I came foorth from the father and came into the world now contrariwise I leaue the world and go to the father So that his ascending to the father was the leauing of the world and his abiding with the father imployeth his absence from the world The poore you alwaies haue with you but me sayth hee you shall not alwayes haue Nowe am I no more in the world but come to thee holy father ergo now Chriâ—t being with his father is no more in the world but remaineth in heauenâ— and as touching his humane nature is absent from the earth which not onely the scriptures pronounce but also the fathers with one voice professe Tertullian In the very palace of heauen to this day sitteth Iesus at the right hand of his father man though also God fleshe and blood though purer than ours neuerthelesse the very same in substaunce and forme in which he ascended Augustine Let vs shew the Iewes at this day where Christ is would God they would heare and take hold of him Hee was slaine of their fathers he was buried he rose againe and was knowen of his Disciples and before their eyes ascended into heauen and there now sitteth at the right hand of the father Let them heare this and lay hold on him Perhaps he will say whom shall I take holde of him that is absent howe shall I reach my hand vp to heauen to take hold on him sitting there Send thy faith and thou hast hold of him Thy father 's held him in the flesh hold thou him in thine heart Hee is both departeâ— and present he is returnâ—d whence he came and hath not left vs. His body hath hee caried to heauen his maiestie hath hee not withdrawen from the world Mee shall you not alwayes haue He spake this of the presence of his body For touching his maiesty prouidence inspeakeable and inuâ—sible grace it is true that he said I am alwayes with you to the end of the world But as touching the fleshe which the word took touching that by the which he was born of the virgin fastned to the crosse laide in the graue you shall not alwayes haue me with you And why because he is ascended into heauen and is not here there hee sitteth at the right hand of the father Cyrill Wee must here diligeÌ„tly marke that albeit hee haue withdrawen from hence the presence of his bodie yet in the maiestie of his Godhead hee is alwayes with vs euen as himselfe readie to depart from his Disciples promised behold I am with you at all tymes vnto the end of the world For the faithfull must beleeue though hee be absent from vs in body yet in his diuine vertue he is euer present with all that loue him with whome hee euer hath beene and will be present though not in bodie yet in the vertue of his Deitie Hee coulde not bee conuersant with his Apostles in fleshe after hee was once ascended to his Father yet for so much as Christ is truely God and man they should haue vnderstood that in the vnspeakeable power of his Godhead hee meant to bee alwayes with them though in fleshe hee were absent and by that onely meanes notwithstanding hee bee absent in fleshe hee is able to saue his Origen according to his diuine nature hee is not absent from vs but hee is absent according to the dispensation of his bodie which hee tooke As a man shall hee bee absent from vs who is euerie where in his diuine nature For it is not the manhood of Christ that is there wheresoeuer two or three bee gathered togither in his name neither is it his manhood that is with vs at all times vntill the ende of the worlde neither is his manhood present in euerie congregation of the faithfull but the diuine vertue that was in Iesu. Ambrose Steuen amiddest the Iewes saw thee O Lord absent Marie among the Angels sawe thee not being present Steuen sought not for thee on earth who sawe thee standing at the right hand of God Marie which sought thee in earth could not touch thee Steuen touched thee because he sought thee in heauen Therefore neither on the earth nor in the earth nor after the flesh ought wee to seeke thee if we wil find thee Gregory Christ is not here by the presence of his flesh which yet is nowhere absent by the presence of his maiesty The word incarnat both remaineth departeth He departeth from his in bodie and remaineth with his in diuinitie Wee must therefore brethren follow him thither in hart whither we beleeue him to be ascended in body If the fleshe of Christ bee not in earth nor on earth as these learned Fathers teach vs howe can it be locally closed in your massing waters If his humane nature be placed in heauen at the right hand of God there to remaine till the time that all thinges be restored and from thence not from any place els shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead howe vainely doe you suppose him to bee corporally present in your pâ—xes and really lodged in your bellies Phi. His bodie wee say may be present in many places at one time Theoph. This you
specie visibili they dranke one thing we drink an other thing but in visible kinde Ibi Petra Christus nobis Christus quod in altari Dei ponitur Si speciem visibilem intendas aliud est To them the Rock was Christ to vs that is Christ which is set on the altar of God If you looke to the visible kinde it is an other thing than that they dranke In these places you can not interprete species a shewe without substance vnlesse you wil transubstantiate Manna which the children of Israel did eate the rocke which they dranke of the hatchet which Elizeus made swâ—m the bread that is in common vse without before consecration for these things Austen and Ambrose comparing them with this Sacrament do call visibiles species visibles kindes as they do the bread and wine proposed to the faithfull at the Lordes table And were you so peruerse that against the meaning of the Fatherâ— â—nd signification of the word you would needes haue species to bee taken for your miraculous and mysticall accidences I can tell you they are like to shrinke in this change as well as the substaunce For Ambrose saith Sermo Christi mutat species elementorum the word of Christ changeth by your interpretation the shewes of the elementes which is so apparantly false that your selues dare not abide it And therefore species must stand not for the outward formes and shewes but for the thinges themselues As Sainct Augustine speaking of the Sacramentall bread sayth vt sit visibilis species panis multa grana in vnum consperguntur Manie cornes are kneaded togither to make not the shew but the visible kinde or creature of bread By which it is euident that species with auncient writers in their discourses of this Sacrament is not a shewe without a substaunce as you vainly suppose but a kinde or creature which is far from accidentes hanging in the ayre you know not how by miraculous geometrie Philand Wee ground not our selues so much on the bare name of species as on the change of the bread and wine made by vertue of consecration as all the Fathers witnesse Theo. It is a verie simple foundation to builde on a bare word which hath many significations besides that and any signification rather than that which you conceiue and yet that is one of the best foundations you haue for your newe founde shewes without substaunce and as for the chaunge of the sacred elementes made by the wordes of Christ and mentioned in the Fathers if you did not vrge your fansies on their phrases but examine their doctrine you should soone spie your error which nowe you will not you bee so wedded to the preiudice of your owne opinion Phi. Doe not all the Fathers with one voice confesse a change to bee made in the elementes by the words of Consecration Theo. Doe not we acknowledge the same How could vsuall bread taken of the fruites of the earth and seruing only to feede the bodie become a Sacrament instrument of heauenly grace and life to quicken and strengthen the soule of man but by some great and maruelous chaunge Phi. Such as none coulde perfourme but the mighty finger of God himselfe For so S. Ambrose and others to perswade this chaunge haue recourse to Christes eternall power and trueth Theo. Yea verily Phi. That confession is suffâ—cient to confute the doctrine which you defend Theo. I see not how Phi. If the bread were not changed from his former substance it could neither bee miraculous nor neede the omnipotent power of Christ. For figures similitudes men may make but this mutation is wrought by the mightie power of the holy Ghost and the manner is vnsearchable Theo. Greater power truth are required for the finishing of one Sacrament than for the working of many miracles Miracles not only the godly but also the wicked haue diuerse times wrought The Sorcerers of Egypt did some wonders Antichrist hath his miracles and those not a few But Sacramentes no Sainct no not the chosen and elect Angels of heauen can institute For who dare promise who can performe the spirituall and celestiall graces of God to bee annexed to the visible signes but only God How could water regenerate the soule if the worde were not God How could bread and wine norish to life euerlasting vnlesse the same God had likewise spoken the word We must in al sacraments be fully persuaded of Christs infallible truth alsufficient power before we can either beleeue or inioy the promises If his word might lack truth or want power then should our faith vanish these outward elements perish without profiting vs but with him is no changing neither can any thing defeate his wil therefore when wee bee taught to looke not on the weaknes of the creatures which be corruptible but on the perfection of his heauenly word which is puissant predominaÌ„t ouer al things what doth this helpe your real corporal coÌ„uersion of bread into Christ What maketh this for TraÌ„substantiation God is wonderfull in this and all other his sacramentes not by casting away substances and leauing accidences but by working that in our hearts by the mightie power of his spirit aboue nature which the visible signes import to our senses and this is more maruelous in any wise mans eye than your accidentall shewes without a subiect Phi. God is maruelous in all his workes but in this more than in any other because the substance of the bread wine is changed where the qualities are not Theo. That change you dreame of but who auoucheth it besides your selues or what ancient father euer mentioned any such Phi. They all confesse the change which we speake of Theo. You bee so deepe in your empty shewes that wee take your all to bee as much as none Phi. Thinke you as you list wee knowe what wee haue Theo. If your stoare bee so great why make you such curtsie to name vs one Phi. You will quarell with him when I bring him Theo. Your selfe mistrust him before you offer him Phi. I mistrust your carping not his writing Theo. If mine answere bee not sound wherefore serue you but to refute it Phi. Wel then Eusebius Emissenus hath an euident testimony for this matter Recedat omne infidelitatis ambiguum quandoquidem qui author est muneris ipse est etiam testis veritatis Nam inuisibilis sacerdos visibiles creaturas in substantiam corporis sanguinis sui verbo secreta potestate conuertit ita dicens Accipite comedite hoc est corpus meuÌ„ Et sanctificatione repetita accipite bibite ait Hic est sanguis meus Ergo sicut ad nutum praecipientis Domini repente ex nihilo substiterunt excelsa caelorum profunda fluctuum vasta terrarum ita pari potestate in spiritualibus Sacramentis vbi praecipit virtus seruit effectus Let all doubt of infidelitie
depart because he that is the author of the gift is also the witnesse of the trueth For the inuisible priest turned the visible creatures into the substance of his bodie and bloud with his word and secret power saying take eate this is my body and repeating the sanctification he saide take drinke this is my bloud Therefore as at the Lordes becke commaunding the high heauens the deepe waters the wide earth were made on the suddaine of nothing so with like force in the spiritual Sacraments when his power commandeth the effect followeth These words be plaine enough if either truth or authority can content you The. Either shal content me if I may be sure of either Phi. Here you find both Theo. Who wrate this sermon which you cite Phi. Eusebius Emissenus Theo. When liued he Phi. Why doe you aske Theo. Reason we knowe his age before we receiue his testimonie Phi. His age I can tell you is as ancient as his doctrine Theo. I thinke both of one antiquity For neither the maÌ„ nor the matter were knowen in the church of Christ for 900. yeares and vpward Phi. How you be deceiued S. Hierom maketh mention of Eusebius Emissenus that wrate short homilies vpon the Gospels somewhat before his time Theo. And that made your fellowes put his name to certaine latine homilies that were none of his and to beare men in hand he was a frenchman but when he liued they can not tell Phi. Yes S. Hierom saieth hee died vnder Constantius more than twelue hundred yeares ago Theo. Eusebius Emissenus then wrate and then died but who wrate these latine homilies that were extant in his name Phi. Himselfe Theo. What countriman was he Phi. I thinke a Frenchman Theo. So Canisius both your collegue and the compiler of your huge chaos or catechisme sayeth marie when he liued that hee could not tell and therefore of his owne authoritie placeth him 200. yeres after S. Hierom with a perchaunce least if we should aske him for his proofe he might be taken with a lie His wordes are Eusebius Emissenus Gallus cuius habentur homiliae hoc fortè tempore claruit Eusebius Emissenus of Fraunce whose homilies wee haue extant perhaps liued at this time that is 500. yeres after Christ. Phi. And so it may be The. But this is not he that S. Hierom speaketh of For he died vnder CoÌ„stantâ—us whose raign and life ended 343. after Christ. Phi. The elder hee was the better his credit for this question Theo. But the worst is that Eusebius Emissenus was a Bishop in Syria wrate in greeke and therefore to assigne him latine homilies and to suppose him to bee a frenchman was a very grosse corruption and such as children will deride Phi. Might there not be an other of that name Theo. Ye as in that place but in Fraunce there could bee none Phi. Why not Theo. Because Emesenus doth signifie Bishop of Emesa in Syria where this Eusebius liued and as S. Hierom writeth was buried at Antioch the chiefe Metropolis of Syria Phi. But this is Eusebius Emissenus which Gratian alleadgeth Theo. It is not the first word by fiue hundred that Gratian hath altered For Eusebius Emesenus Sainct Hieroms certificate is verie good for Eusebius Emissenus the first record that we finde is in Gratian where by the verie stile periods casures members and agnominations you may perceiue him to be a latinist as Canisius addetâ— a Frenchman Now in what age he liued in what place he preached we require some proofe before we can or will admit these things to be his which you haue forged in his name Emissenus must be a deriuatiue from some place shew any such place in Europe and then you saie somewhat for the likelyhood though not enough for the certainty of this writer Philand What if we can not Theophil Then hee that hath but halfe an eye may soone discerne 〈◊〉 treacherie Your Monks Friers seeking to colour their fained holines late sprong faith with the reuereâ—d titles of aâ—cient fathers prâ—fered the names of Austen Ambrose HieroÌ„ Cyprian Isidore others before diuerse of their own dâ—â— fe◠〈…〉 finding in S. Hierom Eusebius Emesenus to be an old writer gaue him a new liuerie with the rest and ascribed certaine latin homilies such as they had vnto him whom themselues or Gratian that first lighted on this old new writer corruptly called Eusebius Emissenus And because the forgerie did hardly hang together the right Eusebius beeing a Gretian and of great antiquity Canisius the generall Atturnie for your religion hath deuised twoe more of that name one a french-man that perchance he saith florished in the fift Centurie and an other that wrate after Gregory the great and expounded the ghospels but when either of them liued or where they taught neither he nor you can bring vs any proofe besides your bare and vaine supposals Phi. Wil you not trust the inscription of the worke it selfe Theo. That were the way to let euery frier and forgerer create new fathers at his pleasure It is as easie for them that copie out other mens workes to make false as true inscriptions and so haue your Monkes plaied with euery father that was ancient as the most partiall of your owne side doe confesse and in this is too apparent For how many mens names thinke you did this homilie beare which you alleadge not yet two hundreth yeres ago Phi. What can I tel Theo. Then I can Looke in Walden and in one Chapter you shal find this very sermon beare three mens names Phi. Is that possible Theo. The lesse possible the thing the more palpable your forging In the 67 chapter his aduersarie alleaged the woordes which you bring out of Isidore in his sermon beginning with Magnitudo caelestium That Walden doth not much impugne but very often so calleth him and yet at length remembring himselfe he or some man for him yeeldeth to the decrees and calleth that writer Eusebius Emisenus by Gratians authority marie with a single s where now a double is gotten both into the worde and into Gratian and yet in the 68 chapter forgetting what he him selfe or others for him had done he citeth an other part of the same sermon vnder Anselmus name Ratificat eandem coÌ„parationem in sermone sâ—pe dicto qui incipit Magnitudo caelestiuÌ„ Anselmus dicens This comparison Anselmus doth ratifie in his sermon often spoken of which beginneth Magnitudo caelestium though afterward in the same chapter he returne againe to his former staggering and call the writer of your wordes Isidore or rather Eusebius Phi. Let him be Isidore or Eusebius we care not whether Theo. Since the Sermon is not his whose name it beareth we may not suffer you to choppe names as you list neither neede we so much as regard the words before wee know the author lest we reuerence lewd and late
dipped his hands in his brothers bloode nor take the wages of Balaam to curse and reuile the people of God nor perish in the contradiction of Corah for resisting both God and the Magistrate but rather that wee may be sanctified and saued by the might of his word and store of his mercy laid vp in Christ his sonne for all that beleeue him and call vpon him Phi. God send vs such part as our fathers had Theo. You be so displeased with God for punishing the sinnes of your fathers with blindnes and error in these later ages that now you will none of his light nor grace though he offer it freely to saue your soules but if you will needes perish your owne bloode be on your owne heades yet haue vs excused if we thinke our sinnes heauie enough though wee adde not thereto the neglect of his worde and contempt of his trueth as you doe In the knowledge of God and reuerence of his iudgements there is a path way to repentaunce and hope of mercy in the proude dislike of his seueritie towards others and sâ—ubberne refusall of his goodnes towards our selues there is nothing but an heaping of extreme vengeaunce which shall consume the wicked and impenitent resisters of his word and spirit Phi. We be not of that number Theo. Were you not you would be more carefull to search and willing to embrace the trueth of Christ once vnderstoode with all readines and lowlines of minde knowing that God resisteth the proud and giueth grace to the humble and not with an high-looking and self-pleasing perswasion that all is yours neglect your duty to God and man Phi. We obserue both Theo. You obserue neither Subiection to your lawfull Prince you haue forsaken and not onely fledde the Realme and incited others to doe the like but the Christian alleageance which the Prince requireth of her subiects you impugne with shifts and slaunders in fauoâ—r of him who wickedly and iniuriously taketh vpon him to be the supreme Moderator of earthly kingdomes chiefe disposer of princes Crowns and so fast are you lincked in confederacie with him that in open view of all men you will allow no Prince to beare the sword longer than shall like him but proclaime rebellions of subiects against their Soueraignes to be iust honorable warres if he authorize them by his Censures And where to cloake your wicked and enormous attempts you boldely surmised that you did whatsoeuer you did for that Religion which was ancient Catholike we haue presently taken you so tardie short of your reckoning that for sixe of the greatest and cheefest points now in question betwixt the Church of England and the Church of Rome and reformed in this Realme by publike authoritie you cannot bring vs so much as one ancient euident testimony that your faith and Doctrine was euer taught or receiued in the primatiue church of christ and yet you please your selues in your owm conceits and compasse the earth to get prosilites fit for such teachers whom you may traine vp in error and vse as instruments to catch vnstable soules and fier vnquiet heades that you by them may disturbe realmes and fishe for Princes thrones and liues in troubled waters Phi. All this is as false as God is true Theo. God himselfe shall skant be trueth if you may be the iudges except hee take your parts But facing and craking laid aside you must referre the iudgement of your doings and sayings to others and not to your selues Phi. To Catholikes I am content The. They must be then of your instructing that is such as will trust neither fathers nor Scriptures against your Canons otherwise in that you haue saide they shall find no great cause to like your impugning the Princes power right to establish Lawes within her owne lande without the Popes leaue and to hold her Crowne against his censures and as litle shall they find to cal you or count you Catholikes Phi. Men of your own pitch will soone assent to any thing Theo. Let them be but indifferent and weigh what you haue brought Phi. More we can bring when we see our times The It skilleth not how much but how sound that is which you can bring Phi. Of that hereafter and yet in the meane time there be many other thinges besides these that you haue handled that must be discussed before we can be pronounced no Catholikes And as in these you seeeme with wresting and wrenching to haue some aduantage so in those we could forthwith confound you The. Euen as you haue doone in these Phi. A great deale more readily if I had time to stay the triall of them but this holy tide I must spend in other matters of more importance Theo. What In spredding newes that the king of Spain doth stay but for the next summer Phi. We meddle not with forraine affaires Theo. A number of you be better seene in policie than in diuinitie you were borne belike to be rulers though it be but of Rebels as Sanders was that thought it a praise to take the field in person against his Prince Phi. My trauell is not to that end Theo. You leaue that for others and trauel to sound the harts of your adherents whether they be in number welth and zeale likely and readie to giue assistance if any should inuade Phi. What vnchristian coniectures you haue of vs Theo. None but such as your owne deedes and wordes occasion Phi What cause haue we giuen you to speake this of vs Theo. What greater cause can you giue than openly to auouch as you haue done in your Defence of Catholiks as you call them yâ— rebellions against such Princes as the Pope deposeth are godly iust honourable wars Phi. If hee may depose them they are Theo. You haue in print affirmed both and sought to proue them with all your might and therefore what shal we thinke your secret whispering and reconâ—ling to the Church of Rome is but a craftie bayte of Malcontentes to make rebels Phi. The parties themselues can witnesse we neuer mention any such thing in our absolution To them we appeale for record Theo. For my part I thinke you doe not It were too grosse conspiracie treason to take vowes and oths of subiects against their Prince by name and therefore if you should take that open course you were worthie to ride to Tyburne not only for traytors but also for disards But when you reconcile them you take assurance of them by vow oth or other adiuration that they shall embrace the Catholike faith and hold Communion vnitie with the Church of Rome for euer after Phi. Why should we not Theo. Then when it pleaseth my Lord the Pope to depriue the Prince and to excommunicate al that assist or agnise her for a lawfull magistrate what must your reconciled sort doe Is it not against their oth faith giuen to you at their restitution to
or haue they teeth l Cap. 29. m Cap. 38. n Cap 19. o Cap. 46. Not the widenes of thy mouth to receiue Christ but the bosome of thy soul that is thy saith p Fulbertus in epist. ad Adeodatum That is not by local inclusion but by mysticall operation * This is the mouth that receiueth Christ not the bodily mouth as the Iesuits hold The spirituall eating the fathers taught the corporall they did not teach * Your adding that which you should not is no warrant for vs to beleeue it Iohn 6. * Christ is not meate for both the parts of man and that which is eaten is meate q Chrys. homil 43. in Iohan. r Ambros. de iis qui initiantur mysteriis ca. 9. s Aug. de verbis Dom. in Lucam serm 33. t Cypr. de Caena Domini For what part christ is meat that part he nourisheth which the Iesuits dare not confesse to be true of the bodie u Chrys. hom 83. in Mat. 45. in Ioan. y Ibidem x Chrysost. in Matt. hom 83. Cypr. de cae 11 Domini z Iâ—â— dist 2. dâ— consec ¶ In quibus z Athana in illud quicunque dixerit verbuÌ„ Chrysosâ— in 〈◊〉 83. No one 〈…〉 the bodâ—e the soâ—l Iohn 6. He that abideth not in Christ doth not eate christ by the manifest resolution of Christ himselfe Iohn 6. Such as liue not by Christ doe not eate Christ. A sacramentall eating hath in it both the corporall eating of the signes with teeth the spirituall eating of Christ by faith g Aug. de ciuiâ— Dei li. 21. c. 25. To eate christ in a sacrameÌ„t is not so much as to eate him indeede e Ibidem f Ibidem h Augu◠〈◊〉 Ioan tract 26. The sacranâ—eÌ„tali eating of Christ is the eating of the sacred signe wherby he is figured i Contra. adâ—ers leg Prâ—pheâ— lib. 2. cap. 9. de ciuit Dei li. 10. cap. 5. k De cons. dist 2. ¶ hoc est The sacrameÌ„t is not the bodie of Christ but after a soâ—t that is by a mysteâ—e of signification l August in Iohan â—ract 26. m Hier. in Ose. cap. 8. n Ambros. de iis qui initiantur mysteriis cap. 8. o Cypr. de caena Domini p Orig. in Mat. cap. 15. The wicked eate the Sacrament but they eate not Christ. Christ entereth and abideth where he is receiued q Concil Nicen. 1. How Christ is present on the table r Concil Nicen. Ibidem s Chrysost. ad Poâ—iâ— Antioch hom 61. With these two points of cunning the Iesuites perueâ—t all the fathers they bring for this matter t Cypr. de vnctiâ— â—hrysmaâ—is u Ambros. de iis qui initiantur mysteriis cap. 3. We confeâ—se a more mightie fruitfull and heauenly presence of christ in the Sacraments than the Iesuits do Infinite are the contentions of their Schooles about these such other points of their reall and carnall imagination The cheefest Papists are togither by the eares for their corporall eating of Châ—istes flesh with teeth iawes The gloze maketh it an heresie to say that Christes fleâ—h is betwixt the teeth a De cons. dist 2. § tribus gradibus In Glossa b Durand in rationali diuinor officior lib. 4. Rubr. de 6. parâ— Canonis c Ibidem Durandus will haue it in the mouth but no farder c Ibidem Durandus will haue it in the mouth but no farder d Bonâ—â—em in 4 senâ—em dist 13. â—rtic 2. quaeâ—â—a Bonauenture will haue Christ in the bellie but thâ—nâ—e he shal not stirâ—e e Ibiâ—em Tâ—eâ—sâ—lues confâ—sâ—e their owne varietie of â—paâ—â—nâ— touching the coâ—porall eating of Christ and graunt it hard to iudge what to hold f Ibidâ—m g Alex. de Haâ—â—s part 3. quaesâ— 45. h Thom part 3. quaest 80. arâ—ic 3. The Thomists wil haue Christ in the bellies of mice and hogges if they eate the Sacrament i Senten lib. 4. dist 13. k Anton. part 3. tit 13. cap 6. § 3. de â—â—fectibus Misâ—ae Here is the perfection of their real presence and corporall â—aâ—ing of Christes flesh with their teeth l Ibidem * Behold christian reader the iust reward of error and learne to reuerence the trueth of God * For this the Iesuits striue This grosnes is so wicked that they are ashamed of iâ— but they cannot auoide it Senten lib. 4. dist 13. To Canonize and promote the men was the next way to spred their errors p Chrysost. in Mat. hom 83. q Cyril catechis mysâ—ago 4. The creatures maie manie waies miscary the flesh of Christ because it is not locallie incloâ—ed can not The flesh of Christ not subiect to any vncleanes or corruption r Ambrâ—s de sacramentiâ— lib. 1. cap. 5. s Idem de iis qui initiantur mysteriis cap. 3. t August de â—apâ—â— contra Donatiâ—â— lib. 3. cap. 10. u Orig. in 15. Mat. x Rabanus de iâ—st Clâ—ricor lib. 1. cap. 31. The schoolemen were driuen to this bâ—uâ—ishnes by the very sequele of their reall presence a De cons. dist 2. § qui bene Glossa ibidem The Iesuits at this day cannot auoid that filthie doctrine but by grosse and apparent mockeries b Thomas Walden tomo 2. qui de sacramentis est c. 46. They might as well defeÌ„d they bee nâ— mice or biâ—dâ— that â—ouch the Sacrament but Angels in those snapes b Thomas Walden tomo 2. qui de sacramentis est c. 46. They might as well defeÌ„d they bee nâ— mice or biâ—dâ— that â—ouch the Sacrament but Angels in those snapes c De cons. dist 2. § qui bene Glossa Ibidem This is a sure waie to keepe mâ—ce from eating Christ but theÌ„selues are in 〈◊〉 great dâ—unger to â—â—â—e â—im as the mice They haue but the two foâ—â—â—â—r 〈…〉 Where Christ sitteth in the glorie of God the father farre from the iniuries and abuses of men or beastâ— No teeth nor iawes can reach to Christ but onely faith that enioyetâ— him in the heauens The Christians were neuer taught to turne their harts to the host d Coloss. 3. e August de bono viduitatis cap. 16. * Vp to heauen to the Priests hands Whither wee must lift vp our harts to seeke fâ—r Christ. f Ambros. in 1â— Luc. lib. 8. § de duobus in vno lecto c. g Idem lib. 10. in 24. cap. Luc. ¶ de hora Dominicae resurrect h Chrys. in 10. cap. 1. Cor. hom 24. * Which dogs mice cannot doe j Hiâ—r Hâ—dibiâ—e quaest 2. k Paschas de corpâ—re sanguin Dom. cap. 52. l August qu est Euang. lib. 1. cap. 42. If Christ be absent in bodie from the earth how can his flesh be really present in the host m Act. 7. n Act. 3. The flesh of Christ is not on earth o Act. 1. When he ascended he was taken vp from vs. p Iohn 16. q Iohn 12. r Iohn 17. Christ going to his father is no more on earth s Tertul. de resurrect
carnis t August in Euang Iohan. tract 50. What means we haue to take hold of Christ now absent in heauen u Ibidem How Christ is prâ—sent with vs and howe he is absent from vs. * There not here x Cyril in Ioan. lib. 6. cap. 14. Christ absent in flesh a Lib. 9. cap. 21. b Lib. 9. cap. 22. c Lib. 11. cap. 3. d Lib. 11. ca. 21. e Lib. 11. ca. 22. f Orig. tract in Matth. 33. His bodie absent from vs. His manhood is neither in all places nor at all times with vs. g Ambr. li. 10. super â—ucae cap. 24. de hora Dominicae resurrectionis christ is not to besought neither on earth nor in earth h Gregor in Euang homil 2â— i Ibidem homil 30. k Ibidem hom 29. The fathers themselues teach both partes of this consequentâ— Christ is in heauen ergo not in earth l August epist. 57. ad Dardanum That the substaunce of Christs bodie maie be in manie places at one time is a condemned heresie m August epist. ad Daâ—danum 57. * Nec aliunde quam inde * In eadem carnis forma atque substantia * If Christes manhood be in euerie place he looseth the truth of his bodie n In eadem epi. ad finem * In aliquâ— loco coeli o August in Iohan tract 30. He speaketh of the trueth of the gospel not of the truth of the bodie of Christ. * β Vno loco esse poâ—est p Vigilius contra Eutych lib. â— cap. 4. * That the flesh of Christ should be euery where was a sequâ—lâ— of Eutyches heresie * Christ maÌ„hood conâ—ained in a place * From this the Iesuits be vtterly fallen q Fulgent ad Thrasimundum Regem lib. 2. cap. 5. * Christs humane substance is not both in heauen earth at one time * If Christ be not locall he is no true man The body of Christ contained in one 〈◊〉 place not diffunded in manie * This without question is the Christian faith and not the Iesuits vbiquitie or multilocitie This is a bare shift of the Iesuits yet this is all the refuge they haue r Aug. epist. 57. s Vigil contra Eutych li. 4. cap. 4. t Fulgent lib. 2. cap. 5. ad Thrasimundum regeÌ„ u Ibidem Fourme is all one with truth and perfection a Ambros. lib. 7. epist. 47. b Leo epist 97. c Chryso in cap. 2. epist. ad Phil. sermâ— 6. d Aug. epist. 57. e Ibidem Per id quod homo is substaÌ„ce as well as shape Christ can haue no humane substance without humane shape f Aug. epist. 57. g Phili. cap. 3. h Fulgent ad Thrasimundâ—â— regâ—m lib. 2. cap. 5. i Theod. dial 2. It is no humane bodie that hath not shape as well as substance k Ambro. in 10. cap. ad Heb. Chrys. hom 17. in eadem epist. l Chrysost. de Sacerdotio li. 3. Chrysostome and Ambrose could not gainesay the rest and be Catholikes The Iesuites would drawe Chrysostome and Ambrose to be of Eutyches opinion These conditions of a true bodie the manhead of Christ maie haue wheresoeuer it be There is but one Christ that one Christ hath but one body which is not euery where m Aug. de essentia diuinitatis n Vigil contra Eutych lib. 4. cap. 4. The words of Ambrose and Chrysostome as the Iesuites conster them are against the verie grounds of our common faith How Chrysostome Ambrose must be vnderstood o Chrys. de Sacerdot lib. 3. Chrysostoms figuratiue vehement â—peaches much abused by the Iesuits p Ambros. lib. 10. in 24. Luc. q August epist. Iohan tract 1. Chrysostome himselfe excludeth the corporall vnderstanding of his words r Chryso de Sacerdot lib. 3. s Ibidem t Chrys. Ibidem The power of God must neuer be alleadged against his wil nor our faith which he hath commaunded vs to beleeue u Tertul. aduers Praxeam Gods omnipotencie a common refuge with heretikes When wee produce gods power for our fansies against his trueth wee make him a lyar and in subiection to our willes The Iesuits pretend god-power against the christian faith * Or if you do not see your selues condeÌ„ned in the great councel of ChalcedoÌ„ Act. 5. definitio 2. as heâ—eâ—iâ—s for not beleeuing it * A very witty excâ—ption Then you beleeue the Christian faith to be true euerie where sauing in the Sacrament and what is that but wilfullie and openlie to denie the faith where you list Whatsoeuer he can doe you bee heretikes in the meane time for contradicting the christian faith * Tertul. aduer Praeâ—eam The Iesuites incurre not onelie Impieties but impossibilities a August conâ—ra â—austum li. 20. cap. 11. b Cyril in Ioan. lib. 15. cap. 3. These fathers were not afraide to saie Christ coulde not be in manie places at one time The Iesuits whiles they would shunne Eutyches error runne headlong into contradictions yet stick in the same mire that Eutyches did c 2. Tim. 2. d Hebr. 6. e Aug. de ciuit Dei lib. 5. c. 10. f Ambr. lib. 6. epist. 37. g Ibidem What thingâ— are impossible to God and why Of contradictions one part is euer false and all falshood impossible to God A lie in worke is as bad as a lie in word as contrarie to the nature of God This is right Iesuitical skill to saie the bodie of Christ is and is not contained in a place * These bee worse than the Poets chimers The best gâ—ounds you haue for these thinges are dreames and miracles of your owne making * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * You be good at vndertaking but naught at perfourming It is enough for the Iesuâ—â—s to call themselues Catholiâ—es though they cannot shâ—w one writer for a thousand yeares that taught theâ—r transubstantiation * Which will say neuer a word for your purpose This is cited out of S. Austen by frier Walden tomo 2. de Sacramentis cap. 83 a diuine worke in D. Allens iudgement lib. 1. de Euch. sacâ— pa. 34â— This forgery with others was iudicially allowed by Pope Martin the fifth and his Cardinals in their Consistorie * This young Austen lacked not onely learning and trueth but Latine and witte * Had you not beene ashamed of your occupation you would haue printed iâ— The woordes did so plainly betray thâ—mselues that they haue since suppressed the booke for verâ—e shame Bede likewise forged by Walden * Citatura The. Walden tomo 2. vt supra cap. 82. * He neuer wrate anie such booke The credite of both these places lieth onely on frier Walden who
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny