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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10345	The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.	Rainolds, John, 1549-1607.; Hart, John, d. 1586. aut; Rainolds, John, 1549-1607. Sex theses de Sacra Scriptura, et Ecclesia. English. aut	1584 (1584)	STC 20626; ESTC S115546	763,703	768

and verie strongly proued Rainoldes This long and smooth tale which you haue tolde out of your Doctor is like to that nightingale to which a Lacedemonian when he had plucked her feathers off and sawe a litle caraine left said Thou art a voice nought else Plucke off the feathers of your tale the body is a poore carkase and hath no substance in it Howbeit the names of the two courtes the outward court the inward court with other tunes of like musike are very sweete melodie in the eares of them whose hartes are in the court of Rome As for simple men who haue béene onelye conuersant in the courtes of the Lord they sound to them like straunge languages and seeme to containe more profound mysteries then we can reach the depth off But to open your answere that it may be séene what is vnsound in it this is the point of the thing in controuersie I say that the power promised to Peter by the name of the keyes in the sixtéenth of Matthew was performed and giuen to all the Apostles by the commission of Christ in the twentieth of Iohn You with Stapleton deny it Why Because the keyes promised to Peter do signifie all kind of power wherof a part onely was giuen to the Apostles to bind and loose in either court And how proue you this Forsooth bicause by these wordes whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen Christ doth not expound what he meant by the keies as some men say you haue thoughtthat he doth Then some men haue thought that the power of the keyes and the power of binding and loosing are all one the later added by Christ to expound the former In deede I thought so and I perceaue by you that I thought not so alone some other men haue thought it too But you say it is not as some men haue thought Yet you do not tell vs the names of these some men Might we knowe I praye what these some men be Hart. What matter is it who they be sith wee are not of their minde Rainoldes Yes it is a matter For if I knew them it may be I would talke with them Hart. To confirme you in your errour But learned men do vary in expounding of Scriptures some hitte the marke some misse it And D. Stapleton reading many of all ●ortes might fall on some expounding it amisse as you do whom hée for modestie would not name where hee reprooueth their opinion Rainoldes This modestie I like not The truth is hee durst not name them least wee should know them and bee the more strengthned by them in the truth to the confounding of your errour For these some men whom hee so lightly trippeth ouer are but al the Fathers who haue with one consent expounded Christes promise of the keyes as we do Now the exposition which the Fathers make is by his owne iudgement the churches exposition which hath the right sense of the scripture And so while he is launching out into the deepe to fetch in a prise for Peter of Romes supremacie hee maketh shipwracke in the hauen Hart. How know you that the Fathers all haue so expounded it You haue not read them all haue you Rainoldes No truely Neither euer am likely to doo it But I haue read him that hath read them all I trow And hee being a man worthy with you of credit doth witnesse that I saye true Hart. Who is that Rainoldes Euen Father Robert the publike reader and professor of diuinitie in Rome Who when he discoursed of Christes wordes to Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen said that all power of the keyes is therein promised not restrained to part but enlarged to what soeuer Yea that Christ likewise promised the same power to all the Apostles when he spake in like wordes Whatsoeuer ye bind on earth shall be bound in heauen what soeuer ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen For albeit Origen more subtilly then literally doth put a difference betweene the promises because in the one the word heauen is vsed in the other heauens yet the common exposition of S. Ierom S. Hilarie S. Anselme and others vpon this place yea of S. Austin him selfe in his treatise vpon Iohn is that Christ speaketh of the power of the keyes by which the Apostles and their successours do bynd or loose sinners And although it seemeth that here is chiefely meant the power of iurisdiction whereby sinners are excommunicate yet the said Fathers doo vnderstand it of both the powers not onely of iurisdiction but of order too And that may be gathered it seemeth by the text For it is said as generally to the Apostles What things soeuer ye shal bind as it is to Peter What thing soeuer thou shalt bind Hart. Perhaps Father Robert doth bring in these thinges by way of an obiection and frameth thereunto an answere and so resolueth to the contrarie Rainoldes No. But he bringeth your opinion in deede by way of an obiection and frameth thereunto an answere and so resolueth to the contrary For thus he goeth forward What Is that giuen then to all the Apostles which was promised to Peter Caietan in his treatise of the Popes authority saith that the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the power of byndyng and loosing are not all one for that to bynd and loose is lesse then to open and shut But this doctrine seemeth to be more subtill then true For it is a thing vnheard of that there are in the Church any other keyes then the keyes of order and of iurisdiction And the sense of those wordes I will giue thee the keyes and whatsoeuer thou shalt bind and loose is plaine that first a certaine power and authoritie is promised afterward the function of it is declared Now the function of these keyes is declared by the wordes to bind and loose not by the wordes to shut and open that we may vnderstand they be metaphoricall and borowed kindes of speeches neither heauen is opened properly but it is said that heauen is opened then with these keyes when men are loosed and dispatched of the difficulties and infirmities which shut them out of heauen and so forth Thus saith your chiefest reader and Iesuit Robert Bellarmin whose iudgement by your leaue I farre esteeme in this point aboue D. Stapletons as more agreeable to the scriptures Hart. You may estéeme it as you li●t But I am not bound to stand to Bellarmines iudgement Rainoldes But you are bound to stand to the iudgement of the Fathers by the Councell of Trent and that vpon your othe as I take it With the which othe I know not how D. Stapleton dispenseth Unlesse the Pope expound it that you must folow them so farre as

Sophronius Agatho Damascene Euthymius and others doo name him Dionysius Areopagita when they cite thinges that are in him Rainoldes Gregorie Nazianzen doth prayse a certain autour whom he nameth not It is but one mans ghesse that he meaneth Denys An other saith which is more likely that he meaneth Athanasius Origen is auncient if he had cited Denys Denys must be elder a hundred yeares or two then I doo iudge him by his countenance But that worke of Origen in which you finde him cited can not bee Origens For in it the Manichees are mentioned and Arians the names of which heretiks did rise a good while after Origen was dead So that when this Origen is brought to cléere that Denys a théefe is brought to cléere a théefe The rest whom you alleage Sophronius Agatho Damascene and Euthymius are of later yeares and such as might easily thinke him to be Denys who called him selfe so Many honest men did thinke Perkin Warbeck to be Richard Duke of Yorke King Edward the fourthes sonne as he professed him selfe to bee though in déed he was a counterfeite Hart If you may reiect an autour as counterfeit against so great consent of writers any ancient Father may be refused for a rascall Rainoldes If you may allow a counterfeit as lawfull because that many thinke well of him euerie Perkin Warbeck may be receyued for Duke of Yorke Hart. Nay there was sure proofe that he could not bee the Duke For the Duke was killed with the Prince his brother in the Tower ofLondon by Richard the vsurper ten yeares before men heard of Perkin Rainoldes There is surer proofe that he whose cause you pleade cannot be Dionysius Areopagita Hart. What Such as Erasmus and Valla bring that Ierom and others do not mention him Rainoldes That as light as you make it did moue Cardinall Caietan to dout of the man But the proofe that I meant is such as yours against Perkin to weete that Dionysius Areopagita was dead many yeares before the workes which beare his name could be writen For there is cited in them a saying of Ignatius out of an epistle which he wrote to the Romans as he was going to suffer martyrdome in the time of Traian the Emperour Now Dionysius died in the time of Domitian certaine yeares before And when Ignatius wrote it Onesimus was Bishop of Ephesus who succéeded Timothee Your counterfeit alleageth it to Timothee Bishop of Ephesus either after his decease or before it was writen Moreouer the Christians in Dionysius time made their assemblies to praier both in such places and with such simplicitie as the Apostles did and times of persecution suffered But when your counterfeit wrote they had solemne temples like the temple of the Iewes the Chancell seuered with such sanctification from the rest of the Church that it was not lawfull for moonks to enter thereinto much lesse for other lay-men Againe the moonkes also were risen when he wrote and they of credit in the Churches and many ceremonies to hallow them Which in the time of the Apostles when Dionysius liued were not heard of yet for any thing that can be proued by monuments of antiquitie Hart. What not moonkes Why Philo maketh mention of them as Eusebius sheweth And Philo did florish vnder Caius the Emperour euen in the prime of the Apostles Rainoldes That which Philo writeth he writeth not of Christian moonkes but Iewish Essees as him selfe sheweth Eusebius was deceiued And if you thinke that you haue mee at an aduantage in that I do denie Eusebius I shal haue you at the same vnlesse you will deny him of whom you make greater account euen Thomas of Aquine For he saith of the same time of which Philo wrote that there was not then any certaine sort of religious men But to leaue the proofes which touch other matters or stand on mens coniectures or you may haue some colour of exception against I will proue him a counterfeit by the same point for which you alleaged him and that by demonstration out of the holy scriptures and that by the confession of your Rhemists themselues You alleaged him as a witnesse of the assumption of the blessed virgin Him selfe saith that Timothee came with him togither and many of their holy brethren to behold her body The scriptures shew that Paule was not conuerted to Christ till after Christes ascension When he was conuerted he staied three yeares in Damascus and Arabia before he came to Ierusalem Thence he went into the coastes of Syria and Cilicia and the countries there about And foureteene yeares after he came againe to Ierusalem with Barnabas to the Councell From the Councell he went to Derbe and Lystrae where he receiued Timothee And hauing trauailed through Phrygia Galatia Mysia Macedonia he came at last to Athens where he conuerted Denys the Areopagite So that it was seuenteene or eighteene yeares at least after Christs ascension before S. Denys knew Christ. New the blessed virgin died the fifteenth yeare after Christes ascension as your Rhemists put who yet take the largest time ofher life for other stories make it shorter S. Denys therefore could not be one of the brethren who came togither to be present at her death and funerall And all this is graunted and proued by your Rhemists though they thought not ofit For in their table of S. Paule they shew that it was the one and fiftieth yeare of Christ when he conuerted S. Denys the Areopagite and in their tale of the virgin they recken her to be assumpted the eight fourtieth yeare of Christ. Wherefore you do vs great iniurie to say that we deny S. Denys to haue writen those workes because he giueth testimonie for the Catholike faith in most things now cōtrouersed For that which we deny is in respect of the truth because indéede he wrote them not But in respect of his testimonie for the Catholike faith I wish that I might graunt with a safe conscience that hee wrote them He is so plaine against the most of your heresies chiefly the Popes supremacie Hart. Neither is that an heresie nor is he against it nay hée is plaine for it For he saith as your selfe rehearsed out of him that Peter is the chiefe and ancientst toppe of the Apostles Rainoldes But he saith farther that for as much as the scriptures say to Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen therefore he and accordingly to him euery Bishop doth admit the godly and disinherite the godlesse by declaring the sentence and administring the word of God And this doth plucke vp the Popes supremacie by the rootes For your maisters ground it on that charge of binding

is called into question euery knée must bow in heauen in earth and vnder the earth and yéeld it vnto him whom God hath set at his right hand aboue all powers and principalities Wherefore I say not if a mā if Leo whom hope of profit might blind taking himselfe for Peters heire but if an Angell from heauen do giue it vnto Peter shall I say with the Apostle Let him be accursed I will not take on me that sentence but this I will say the sinne is verie heinous How much more heinous that it is pretended in shew vnto Peter in déede by Peters name conueied to the Pope For as boldly as Leo applieth it to Peter so boldly doth a Cardinall apply it to the Pope And a Bishop venturing further then the Cardinall not content to vouch that the Pope is Melchisedec excelling the rest incōparably in priesthood affirmeth farther of him that he is head of all Bishops from whom they do grow as members grow from the head and of whose fulnesse they do all receiue Of Christ it is written that of his fulnesse we do all receiue that he is a Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedec that he is the head of whom al the bodie being coupled and knit togither by euerie ioint giuen to furnish it through the effectuall power in the measure of euerie part receiueth encrease of the bodie But to giue these priuiledges vnto the Pope that he is Melchisedec the head of al Bishops and of his fulnesse they doe all receiue O Lord in how miserable state was the Church when this did go for catholike doctrine Was not the prophecie then fulfilled of the man who should sit in the Temple of God as God Hart. I maruell what you meane to take vs vp so sharply as for a heinous matter that we call the Pope head of the church whereas you giue that title your selues to the Quéene whom it may lesse agrée to So one that preached to vs h●re not long agoe in the Tower-chappell did make a long talke to proue that Christ onely is head of the church and charged vs with blasphemy for saying that the Pope is head yet him selfe praying for the Quéenes maiesty did name her supreme head of the church of England wherin we smiled at his folly For if it be no blasphemy to call the Quéene head why should it bée blasphemy to call the Pope head Rainoldes We giue vnto her Highnes the title not of head but of Supreme gouernour and that vpon how iust grounde of Gods word and high commission from the highest it shall in due place be shewed if you will As for the Preacher whom you mention I had rather you would deale with me by publike monuments and writings of our church as I doe with you then by reports of priuate spéeches for perhaps you fansied more then he said perhaps he said so much that you were glad to smile it out with that fansie But if your report of his Sermon be true it is likely that he gaue the name of head to the Quéene in the same meaning that we doe the title of supreme gouernour which I will proue to be godly and he denied the Pope to be head in an other meaning in which that name belongeth vnto Christ alone condemning them of blasphemy who giue it him so And they who did smile hereat as at folly because they were Papists might if they were Painims smile at the scriptures too which doe giue the title of Gods vnto gouernors and yet condemne them who haue other Gods beside the Lord. For if it be no blasphemy to call the Magistrates Gods why should it bée blasphemy to call Mercurius and Iupiter Gods Is not this your reason But our doctrine as it is holy and true so it is plaine if men will rather learne it humbly as Christians then laugh at it as Lucians or as Iulians reuolt from it For wée teach that Christ is the head of the church as hee doth quicken it with his spirite as he is the light the health the life of it and is present alwayes to fill it with his blessinges and with his grace to gouerne it In the which respects because the Scripture giueth the name of head to Christ alone by an excellency thereof we so conclude that he is the onely head of the church For otherwise we know that in an other kinde and degrée of resemblance they may be called heads who haue any preeminence of place or gouernment ouer others As in the Hebrue text we reade the heads of the Leuites for the chéefe of them and the priest the head that is to say the chiefe Priest After the which sort I will not contend if you entitle Bishops heads of the churches as Athanasius doth and Gregorie when he had named our Sauiour Christ the head of the vniuersall church hée calleth Christes ministers as it were heads Paul Andrew Iohn heads of particular flocks yet members of the church all vnder one head Hart. You graunt in effect as much as I require For if either Bishoppe or Cardinall haue giuen that vnto the Pope which is due to Christ as he is head properlie wée maintaine them not UUe say that as pastors all who haue the charge to gouerne the church are heads after a sort that is improperly as I termed it so the Pope who is the chiefest of them all is the supreme head And in this sense you must take vs when we do entitle the Bishop of Rome the supreme head of the church Rainoldes I will take you so Howbeit for as much as the name of head hath sundrie significations in this kind of spéeches as the scripture sheweth God is the head of Christ Christ is the head of man man is the head of the woman the head of Syria Damascus the head of Damascus Retzin the king the head of the tribes of Israel and the heads of housholdes the eldest and the head of the people the formost and the head of the mountaines the highest and the head of the spices the chiefest in offenders the heads the principall and amongst Dauids captaines the heads the most excellent some of the which import a preeminence of other things not of power and they that do of power some import a greater power some a lesser I would vnderstand particularlie what power you giue vnto the Pope by calling him supreme head least afterward we vary about the meaning of it Hart. The power which we meane to him by this title is that the gouernement of the whole church of Christ throughout the world doth depend of him in him doth lye the power of iudging and determining all causes of faith of ruling councels as President and ratifying their decrées of ordering and confirming Bishops and pastors of deciding causes brought him by appeales from

For he teacheth plainly that Peter was the first man who gaue the sentence which sentence being followed and approued by the rest was concluded and published in the name of the whole Councel both of the head and of the bodie When they saith he had heard Peter al the multitude held their peace Iames all the Elders togither did agree vnto Peters sentence Rainoldes What is this to the purpose Doth all the multitude held their peace proue the supremacy of Peter Hart. You are disposed to toy My proofe is in the rest of S. Ieroms wordes and you can sée it if you list Iames and all the Elders togither did agree vnto Peters sentence therefore Peter was supreme head Rainoldes In déede I saw not whence you could frame a proofe Beare with mine ouersight The silence of the multitude was fitter stuffe for it For all sortes of men do know by experience Princes and Counsailours in matters of State Nobles and Commons in the houses of Parlament Citizens and Townsmen in their common assemblies our Students of vniuersities both publikely in conuocations and priuately in their colleges that he is not alwaies aboue the rest in power whose sentence al the rest agrée vnto in consultation But if your frends M. Hart haue done you such iniury that by meanes they sent you vntimely beyond sea you are become a straunger in things of common sense humanity at home yet you haue read I trust the story of the Actes out of the which you reason and God hath furnished you with giftes of witte and memory to vnderstand it and remember it Tell me do you thinke that Gamaliel the Pharise the Doctor of the law whom all the people honored was superiour in power to the hie Priest and Councell of the Iewes Hart. No. Rainoldes Yet when the hie Priest and Councell did consult to kil the Apostles he aduised them that they should not do it and hauing heard him they agreed to him If a Supremacie grow not hereof to Gamaliel why should it to Peter If it do to Peter why not to Gamaliel Is this the inuincible proofe that you did promise When they had heard Peter they all agreed to him therefore he was their supreme head Hart. But S. Ierom addeth farther of Peter that hee was princeps decreti prince of the decree which the Apostles made And sure as it is well noted by Waldensis if Peter had not bene the chiefe and President there he were a malapert fellow to preuent them al in taking vp the controuersie and giuing the definitiue sentence Thus saith Waldensis Rainoldes Before you promised Scripture and performed Chrysostom Now you claime by Ierome proue by Waldensis This is your fashion Treasures we looke for and wee finde coales Hart. I bring not Waldensis for his owne credit but as interpreter of S. Ieroms meaning Howbeit though he were not himselfe an auncient writer he was a great Clerke in the time he liued Rainoldes It may bée such a one as gaue occasion to the prouerbe that the greatest Clerkes are not the wisest men He did neuer enter into the Romane Senate-house or els he might haue learned both that the prince of the Senate as he was termed gaue his sentence first yet was not President of the Senate neither was his sentence the definitiue sentence but hée spake his minde of the matter as others after him the whole Senate defined it Though oftentimes the Senate agreed to the sentence of some one Senatour him they did call prince of the sentence that is to say the first authour as Ierom calleth Peter prince of the decree which himselfe expoundeth the first authour of the sentence Wherefore it was not malapertnesse in Peter to speake before others although he were not the President of the Councell but indéede Waldensis was a malapert fellow to vouch that of Peter and vse S. Ieroms words thereto For that they proue not a Presidentship of Peter by entitling Peter prince of the decree you may learne of Tully who sheweth that himselfe was prince of decrees when he was neither President nor prince of the Senate Beside to let you sée the pouertie of this princehood farther Ierome doth not meane the whole decree of the Councell when he saith that Peter was the prince of it for thē he should deny the scripture it selfe which maketh Iames the prince of part but hée meaneth so much thereof as touched his purpose which Peter is mentioned first to haue set downe namely that Gentiles being turned to the faith of Christ should not be constrained to keepe the lawe of Moses Whereon they who know what the Romanes meant by to diuide a sentence may easily consider how Iames though he agreed to Peters sentence in generall yet excepted as it were from it this particular that the beleeuing Gentiles should be admonished to keepe certaine pointes of the lawe of Moses perteining to holinesse and peace with their brethren both dueties necessary for the faithfull The wordes of whose sentence the Councell folowed so precisely that Chrysostome if I would stand on men as you doo speaketh of the sentence giuen by Iames as the definitiue sentence and saith that he pronounced his iudgement with power and that the principalitie was committed to him Hart. He speaketh so of Iames because he was Bishop of the Citie of Ierusalem where the Councell was holden Rainoldes Beware of that answere Hart. Why It is S. Chrysostomes Rainoldes Be it whose soeuer Sée you not what foloweth thereof that euery Bishop in his owne diocese is aboue the Pope For if aboue Peter aboue an Apostle aboue a chiefe Apostle much more aboue a Bishop of Rome or any other You were better say that Chrysostome did erre then fall into this perill And in déede to helpe you in a point of truth hée that maketh Iames a Bishop of one Citie whom Christ made an Apostle to all the Nations of the earth dooth bring him out of the hall as they say into the kitchin It séemeth that Chrysostome spake it vpon the word of Clemens who when he reported it reported this withall that Christ did giue knowledge after his resurrection to Iames Iohn and Peter and they did giue it to the rest of the Apostles Which tale is flat repugnant to the worde of truth wherein wee reade that knowledge and the holy Ghost was giuen by Christ to the Apostles all ioyntly Hart. You shall not helpe me with such shifts against the Fathers For other of them consent herein with Chrysostome that Iames was Bishop of Ierusalem Rainoldes Neither shifts nor against the Fathers but true defenses in fauour of them For the Apostles being sent to preach the Gospell to all Nations made their chiefe abode in greatest cities of most resort as

dastardes which you set against them My former wordes of the Apostles as being equall in power agrée well with these of Peter and Paule For I say not that Paule was aboue Peter but that he might haue bene aboue him in power for all the honour which he gaue him And this is sufficient to ouerthrowe your reason But if my example of the Pope and Emperour did cause you to mistake me you may take an other and fitter for the purpose the Colledge Apostolike as the Pope dooth call them I meane the Cardinalles of Rome Who though they be in states orders and liuings one aboue an other yet in all things and with all curtesies they all giue hie reuerence one vnto an other And when any of them doth come into the chappell of the Popes holinesse to say his deuotions he turneth towardes the Cardinalles of his owne order and goeth not directly to his own place vnlesse he be the lowest but beginning at the lowest as though he wold abide there he is desired entreated of euery one to go higher vntil hee come directly to his own place vnlesse he be the lowest himselfe demurely once again desireth him who is next vnto him that he will go before him at lēgth he sitteth down in his place This is a foule trouble to make so much adoo at the comming in of euerie Cardinall to prayers chiefly when prayers are begun Yet to shew how modestly they thinke of themselues and how they honour one an other euery one that commeth after others dooth it whither the Pope be there or no. Out of doubt Cardinalles men of such wisedome would not commit this folly if euery one whom they honour must be aboue them in power But you deale iniuriously with me to say that you framed your reason out of the scriptures and Fathers and I bring the booke of Ceremonies to kill it For neither did you ground vpon the wordes of scripture but onely on a circumstance obserued by the Fathers that Paule went to Peter of reuerence to honour him and I slew the reason which you made thereof with the sword of scriptures I vsed the booke of Ceremonies but as an Irish Lackey to cut off a dead mans head I would not haue vouchsafed as much as to name him but to cast the doong of your solemnities in your faces and to shewe the fondnesse of a Popish reason by practise of a Papall mockery Though I sée not why you should preferre so the scriptures and Fathers before the booke of Ceremonies For the booke of Ceremonies speaketh more good of the Pope in one leafe then both the other doo throughout all their volumes And it is solemnely printed at Rome with Peters picture in the front and the keies in his handes and Feede my sheepe written about him as a booke of great account where many of the Fathers doo lye in the dust of the Vatican Library and cannot come into the light Notwithstanding if you be willing to yéeld your selfe prisoner to the Fathers as Gentlemen thinke the booke of Ceremonies to be a raskall souldiour whom you disdaine to yéeld vnto behold your owne witnesses who make not Paule inferiour to Peter otherwise then in the time of his Apostleship the one made first the other last S. Ierome who putteth an equalitie betweene them though Paule did honour him as an Apostle before him S. Chrysostome who pronounceth that Paule to say no more of him was Peters peere in dignitie S. Ambrose who giueth a primacy to them both and saith that Paule was euen such an other as Peter S. Austin who declareth their authoritie to haue beene equall and that for Paules honor what he wanteth in time is supplied by Christes glory in that he made him an Apostle not as the rest vpon the earth but when he raigned now in maiestie And these things are written by the same Fathers whose wordes touching the honour that Paule gaue to Peter your Doctor setteth in a beadrole as though in their iudgement Paule acknowledged Peter his supreme head thereby Wherein you may perceiue both his deceitfull dealing that alleageth their wordes as setting one aboue the other who in expresse words doo make one equall to the other and your expositions how iumpe they méete with the Fathers who gathered an equalitie of Peter and Paul by the epistle to the Galatians whence you conclude Peters supremacy ouer Paule Hart. How the Fathers all agrée with one consent of Peters supremacy it shall be shewed hereafter As for the circumstance which I obserued out of them touching the fact of Paule y● when he went to see Peter he went of reuerence to honour him I doo not account so greatly thereof as of the fact it selfe nor vrge I the Fathers so much obseruing that as the report of this made by the Scriptures For they set it forth with so liuely wordes as if it were of purpose to paint out Peters primacie Then after thre yeares I went to Ierusalem saith Paule to see Peter and taried with him fifteene daies Marke his words I pray and sée what weight they cary with them He went to Ierusalem so farre so long a iourney and he went notwithstanding his great affaires ecclesiastical and he went to see Peter not in the vulgar maner but as S. Chrysostom noteth that the Gréeke word importeth to behold him as men behold a thing or person of name excellencie and maiestie Neither did he go onely to see him but he abode with him also to fill him selfe with a perfit viewe of his behauiour And he abode with him no common time but fifteen daies fiftene daies a great matter and more then many would thinke who doo not search the depth of scriptures In such estimation was Peter with Paule and will you yet deny his primacy Rainoldes King Agesilaus when one praysed an Orator that he could amplifie thinges and make them of small to séeme great I saith hée would neuer count him a good shoomaker who would put a great shoo vpon a small foote You play the Orator M. Hart with your amplifications and that in such sort as you passe the shoomaker of Agesilaus For you do not only put a great shoo vpon a small foote but you stretch the leather with your ●éeth too And yet when you haue wéeried your selfe with stretching it you will haue stretched it in vaine For though your shoo be too great for the primacy of Peter yet will it be too small for the supremacy of the Pope Hart. We speake not of the Pope now but of Peter Why stray you from the point Rainoldes I thought they had béene things both of one nature and differing in name only But I will speake of Peter And that you may sée that the shoo which you made is too great for his foote I will shew it by a plaine demonstration to the

the Spirit of truth and whether any of them were who can say We haue no assurance then of mysticall senses which may be mens fansies Onely the literall sense which is meant vndoubtedly by the holy Ghost is of force to proue the assured truth and therefore doth binde in matters of beliefe And this is so cléere that your owne Doctors acknowledge it and teach it euen he whom you alleaged For he saith It is agreed betweene you and vs that forcible aguments ought to be drawne onely from the literall sense and that is surely knowne to be the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost As for mystical senses it is not alwaies sure whether the holy Ghost meant them vnlesse they be expounded in the scriptures as that in Iohn you shall not breake a bone of him Which excepted it is a folly to go about to proue the pointes of faith forcibly by mysticall senses Wherefore if it be not expounded in the scriptures that the wordes of Christ touching one Pastor are meant as of him selfe by the literall sense so by the mystical of the Pope you sée that Father Robert saith it is a folly to go about to proue the Popes supremacie by them if you will proue it forcibly Now what I say of one Pastour the same I say of high Priest By whom the law of Moses doth signify the hye priest literally the epistle to the Hebrewes doth shew that mystically he betokened Christ. But that the Pope was meant by him in any sense eyther literall or mysticall I finde not in the scriptures Hart. But I find in the scriptures that Christians must stil haue a hye Priest amongst thē on earth to be their chief iudge Rainoldes Were finde you that Hart. In the seuentéenth chapter of the booke of Deuteronomie euen in these wordes If there rise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement betweene blood and blood betweene cause cause betweene plague and plague in the matters of controuersie within thy gates then shalt thou arise and goe vp to the place which the Lorde thy God shall choose and thou shalt come to the Leuiticall priestes and to the iudge that shall be in those dayes and aske and they shall shew thee the sentence of iudgement And thou shalt do according to that thing which they shall shewe thee from that place that the Lord shall choose and thou shalt obserue to do according to all that they shall enforme thee According to the law which they shall teach thee and according to the iudgement which they shall tell thee shalt thou doo Thou shalt not decline from the thing which they shall shew thee neither to the right hand nor to the left And he that shall presumptuously refuse to obey the commandement of the Priest who serueth then the Lord thy God by the decree of the iudge shall that man dye and thou shalt take away euil out of Israell Here the hye Priest is made the chiefe iudge to heare and determine hard and doubtfull causes amongst the people of God And who amongst Christians is such a Priest and iudge but the Pope onely Rainoldes Now the first chapter of the booke of Genesis would serue you as well to proue the Popes supremacie if it were considered For it is written there In the beginning God created the heauen and the earth Hart. What meane you so to say Rainoldes Nay aske that of him who doth expound it so saying that whosoeuer resisteth his supremacy resisteth Gods ordinance vnlesse he faine as Manichee did that there are two beginninges which is false hereticall because as Moses witnesseth not in the beginninges but in the beginning God created heauen and earth See in the beginning not in the beginninges and therefore not many are hye Priestes of the Church but the Pope onely Hart. The place which I alleaged doth plainely speake of the high Priest and so it doth serue my purpose more fitly then this which doth not touch him Howbeit as learned men when they haue proued a point by stronger arguments are wont to set it foorth with floorishes of lighter reasons rather to polishe it as it were then to worke it and frame it so the Pope hauing brought better euidence for proofe of his supremacie doth trimme it vp with this of Genesis as you would say by an allusion Rainoldes An illusion you should say But the places both as well this of Genesis as that of Deuteronomie are taken in a mysticall sense of your owne so that to winne a matter which must be wunne by sound proofe they are both of like force because that neyther is of any For the literall sense of that in Deuteronomie doth concerne the Iewes to whom the Lorde spake it by his seruant Moses Now how dangerous it is to buyld as vpon scripture thinges which are not grounded vpon the literal sense thereof we may learne by the mysticall sense of that place which a Pope giueth and no common Pope but Innocentius the third the Father of the Lateran-councel in which your popish Shrift and Transsubstantiation were enacted first He in a decretal which is enrolled in the canon law as a rule of the gouernemēt of the Church for euer doth bring foorth that same place of Deuteronomie to proue that the Pope may exercise tēporal iurisdiction not onely in his owne dominion but in other countries too on certaine causes And because Deuteronomi● is the second lawe by interpretation it is proued saith he by the force of the worde that what is there decreed ought to be obserued in the newe Testament Upon the which principle he doth expound it thus that the place which the Lord hath chosen is Rome the Leuiticall Priestes are his brethren the Cardinals the iudge is himselfe the vicar of Christ the iudgements are of three sortes the firs● betweene blood and blood is meant of criminall ciuil causes the last betweene plague and plague of ecclesiastical and criminall the midle betweene cause cause pertaineth vnto both ecclesiasticall ciuill In the which when any thing shal be hard or doubtfull recourse must be had to the iudgement of the See Apostolike that is of Rome whose determination if any man presumptuously refuse to obey he is adiudged to dye that is to be cut off as a dead man from the communion of the faithfull by excommunication Lo this is a mysticall sense of that place which you alleaged out of Deuteronomie It runneth verie roundly with the Popes supremacie But Christian States I hope will hold the literall sense against it For if they allow this doctrine of Pope Innocentius as catholike the Pope must be supreme head of all Christians both in ecclesiasticall causes and ciuill The mysterie of iniquitie did worke verie fast when the chiefest mysteries of the Romish faith were built vpon such mystical senses Hart. I

we shall raigne vpon the earth By the which wordes it seemeth that he openeth what the prayers are which they offer to Christ. And sith they who offer them doo say of them selues that Christ hath made them Kinges and Priests which S. Iohn before affirmeth of the Saintes on earth it may be that they also and not the Saintes in heauen onely are represented by the foure and twentie Elders Hart. Nay the foure and twentie Elders are described with golden crownes vpon their heads And the crowne is giuen to Saintes in heauen as it is writen Be thou faithfull vntill death and I will giue thee the crowne of life Rainoldes The rewarde of life giuen to the Saintes in heauen when they haue striued as they ought to doo and gotten the victory is called a crowne or as we speake a garland by allusion to a custome that was among the Grecians For such as got the masterie in their games of wrastling or running or the like were crowned with a garland in token of victorie Whereupon the scripture by a figure of spéech doth call life eternall wherewith God rewardeth the conquerours the crowne of life not a corruptible crowne as those of the Grecians were but incorruptible a crowne that can not wither euen a crowne of glory And as the crowne is taken in this sense for a garland to signify the blisse of endlesse life and ioy it is giuen onely to the Saintes in heauen who rest from their labours But the foure and twentie Elders had golden crownes set vpon their heads and a crowne of gold betokeneth a kingdome Wherefore sith the Saintes on earth are kinges also and not the Saintes in heauen onely the foure twentie Elders may signifie them both As it is both their duties to cast their crownes before the throne and say to him who sitteth on it Thou art worthie O Lord to receiue glory and honour and power for thou hast created all thinges and for thy willes sake they are and were created Hart. But they are saide also to be clothed in white raiment And the white raiment is vsed to betoken the brightnesse of glory wherewith the Saintes in heauen are clad For Christ doth pronounce of the godly in Sardis that they shall walke with him in white and when vpon the mountaine his clothes were white glistering it was a token of his glory Rainoldes But as white raiment doth betoken glory so doth it grace too For our Sauiour aduiseth the Church of the Laodiceans to buye of him white raiment that she may bee clothed and that her filthie nakednesse doo not appeere And the scripture sheweth touching the faithful of al tongues and peoples and kinreds and nations that they had washed their robes and made their robes white in the blood of the Lambe Wherefore sith no more is saide of the Elders but that they were in white raiment it may as wel agrée to the Saintes on earth who are in white of grace as to the Saintes in heauen who are in white of glory Hart. But they were sitting on foure and twentie seates about the throne of God and the throne is saide to haue béene set in heauen Wherefore it can not be that the Saintes on earth should be meant thereby Rainoldes Why Was not S. Paul on earth when he said our conuersation is in heauen Or doth he not meane the same of all the faithfull who liue after the lawes of the heauenly citie that is the Church of God and are not earthly minded Doth not S. Iohn him selfe in the Reuelation say that a great wonder appeered in heauen a woman clothed with the sunne and the moone was vnder her feete and vpon her head a crowne of twelue starres and she was with childe and cryed trauailing in birth and was pained readie to be deliuered And is not the Church on earth hereby meant clad as it were with Christ who is the sunne of righteousnes treading downe things worldly which change as the moone adorned with the doctrine of the Apostles as of starres and bringing forth the faithfull as children vnto God Doth not he say farther that there was a battel in heauen Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon fought and his angels but they preuailed not nether was their place found any more in heauen And is not this also meant of the militant Church in which the Prince of the faithfull Michael that is Christ with his angels and seruants doth fight against the dragon that is the deuil with his angels euen all his powers and ministers and doth preuaile against them Then if the Church militant on earth be represented both in this battel and in that woman as your selues confesse and yet S. Iohn describeth the one to haue appeered the other to be doon in heauen the foure twentie Elders might haue their seates in heauen by S. Iohns vision and notwithstanding signifie the faithfull on the earth also Which yet I say not as defining it to be so for I had rather learne then teach the Reuelation wherein I doo acknowledge there are many mysteries that God hath not reuealed to me but onely to shew that you haue no ground in the holy scripture why you should restraine it to the Saintes in heauen And if I could satisfie my selfe with such aduantage to plucke downe your fansies as you content your selues with to set them vp I might as well restraine it to the Saintes on earth sith the Elders say we shall raigne vpon the earth perhaps as Christ said that the meeke are blessed for they shal inherite the earth But you and your Rhemists should haue doon well before you medled with the scriptures to learne S. Austins lesson giuen to the Donatists who when they alleaged as fit a place of scripture out of the song of Salomon to proue that the Church was in Afrike alone as you to proue that Saintes in heauen know our desires out of the Reuelation S. Austin telleth them that he were very impudent who would expound an allegorie or darke speech of scripture for his owne aduantage vnlesse he haue also plaine and manifest testimonies by the light whereof the darke may be made euident Which point in this place doth touch you the néerer because though it be graunted that the Elders signify the Saintes in heauen alone yet the praiers which are spoken off may be their owne praiers to shew that they serue God as it is shewed after that the Angels doo and all the creatures in heauen and on the earth and in the sea and vnder the earth and the foure beasts and finally them selues againe For there are manifest testimonies of scripture that all the Saintes offer vp their owne praiers in which respect they all are Priests But no

and of one soule They all are one body sanctified by one spirit through the Sacrament of one baptisme knit to Christ by one faith to themselues in one loue to serue togither one Lord in one hope and expectation of one eternall blisse and glory So that of this vnitie whereof Peters state and nature is capable apply which you list vnto the wordes of Leo either vnitie of will as you seeme to do or vnity of grace as others answere for it or vnitie of glory which Christ did pray for also and some will like that better none of these doe reach vnto that maiestie which Leos wordes aspire to by giuing him the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie Yet God forbid that any man should suspect of him that he meant vnitie either of nature with God or of person with Christ. He hath deserued better then to be thought so euill off But that which in trueth may be said for him is that his meaning was as other-where him selfe doth open it that Christ did impart his name of rocke and foundation of the church to Peter Now some mist of fansie daisled his eyes or els he would neuer haue saide thereupon that Christ receyued Peter into the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie and that in such preeminence as he receyued none but him chiefly sith hée imparted his greater names and titles of Iesus of Christ of the light of the world one of them to some the rest to all his seruants neither did he giue his name of rocke to Peter or of foundation to Peter onely as shall appeare after But if yet you see not that Leo did outreach in making Peter as it were a felow-head a partie-rocke and the halfe-foundation of the Church with Christ behold a farther felowship wherein he ioyneth Peter as mate and partner with God a felowship of power God hath giuen to Peter a great and a wonderfull felowship of his power and if he would haue any thing to be common vnto other princes with him he neuer gaue but by him whatsoeuer he gaue to others Out of all controuersie these wordes do lift vp Peter vnto the felowship of that glory of which God is so iealous that he hath protested he will not giue it to any other he hath giuen it to Christ who is one with himselfe God of God light of light if any man presume to ioyne a mortall creature whomsoeuer as companion vnto Christ in it he robbeth Christ of his honor of the onely mediator betwéene God and man And what doth he els who saith as Leo doth that S. Peters care shineth ouer Bishops in that their slaunderers are defaced that Peters merit and autoritie doth strengthen the writings of his seruant against heretikes that Peter doth not suffer their persons to be stained who labour for the catholike faith that the Popes decrees are made by the inspiration of God and S. Peter that it must be imputed vnto S. Peters workes and merits if any thing be gotten of God by dayly prayers that nothing passeth ouer vnto the chiefest of the Church no not vnto any man from God but by S. Peter Let euery Christian hart whome the zeale of God hath giuen any warmth vnto and his Spirit wisedome be iudge betwéene you and vs whether that to yeald such power such authoritie such souerainetie and rule of the Church of Christ to any Saint in heauen be not an empairing of the maiestie dominion and soueraine authoritie of the king of Saints the holy one of Israel It gréeueth me to speake so much against Leo whose learning I doe loue and reuerence his auncient yeares But the Auncient of dayes is more auncient then he must be had in greater reuerence who taught young Elihu to reproue his auncients euen holy Iob amongst them and to say of them I will not accept the person of any neither will I giue titles vnto man for I may not giue titles If I should doe it a litle he that made me would take mee away UUherefore I doe fréely without curtesie of titles and accepting of persons professe that I mislike those hawtie spéeches in Leo and I thinke that the mysterie of iniquitie so wrought through his ambitious aduancing Peter that of the egges which he cherished two of the most venemous cokcatrices were bred that euer poysoned the church of Christ the one the Popes supremacie vsurping Princely power ouer the church and common-weale with breach of faith to God and man the other the worshipping of Saintes wherin that honour is giuen to creatures which ought to be giuen to the Creator onely One example may shew them both euen Hildebrand called Gregorie the seuenth in his Popedome who depriuing Henrie the Emperour of his Empire and discharging his subiects of their othe of allegiance pronounced sentence with such an inuocation of Peter as a true Christian would trēble to haue heard vsed to any but to God Incline thine eares ô blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles heare me thy seruant whom thou hast brought vp from mine infancy and hast preserued to this day from the handes of the vnrighteous who hate and vexe me for my fayth in thee Thou canst beare me witnesse best and the holy mother of Christ and thy brother Paule partaker with thee of martyrdome that I haue vndertaken the gouernmēt of the Papacie vnwillingly Not that I thought it robbery to clime into thy See lawfully but I had rather liue in pilgrimage thē occupie thy roome for fame and glorie only I doe confesse and good cause why that the charge of the Christiā people was committed and the power of binding loosing granted vnto me not through my desertes but by thy grace Trusting therefore on this assuraunce for the honour and sauegard of thy holy church in the name of God almightie the father the sonne and the holy Ghost I throwe downe King Henry the sonne of Henry sometime Emperour who hath laide handes too boldly and rashly vpon thy church from his imperiall and kingly gouernment and I absolue al Christians subiect to the Empire frō that othe by the which they are wont to beare faith alleagiance vnto true Kings Doe you sée to what iniquitie their pride abusing Peters name and claiming al by him hath puffed them vp To what vsurping ouer Emperours To what dishonouring of the Almightie But of this we shall haue fitter occasion to conferre when we come to the question of the worship of Saintes For the other to returne to the point which we haue in hand the name of head in that sense as it is made a conduit of the giftes of God to powre them abroad into al the body is onely due and proper vnto the Mediatour betwéene God man the Apostle of our profession our Sauiour Iesus Christ. When the right of this title