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A02198 An aunsvver to George Giffords pretended defence of read prayers and devised leitourgies with the vngodly cauils and vvicked sclanders comprised in the first part of his book entituled, A short treatise against the Donatists of England. By Iohn Greenwood Christs poore afflicted prisoner in the Fleete at London, for the trueth of the gospel. Greenwood, John, d. 1593.; Johnson, Francis, 1562-1618. 1603 (1603) STC 12340; ESTC S103420 74,892 78

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fourth discouered the ●haff and mist of Antichrists delusions euen to babes and sucklings publish the glorious light of his blessed Gospell that the people may see the counterfeit iuglinges of all such false Prophetts and come out from amongst them that you may be ashamed of your execrable wares and forsake your Romish Priesthoode and gyue glory to God that yet offereth grace Amen Christs vnvvorthie vvitnes for the truth of his Gospell IOHN GREENVVOOD FINIS A Fewe obseruations of Mr. Giffards last cavills about stinted read prayers and devised Leitourgies HAving hertofore written an answere to Mr. George Giffards pretended defence of stinted read praiers and devised Leitourgies and since receiued an emptie replie wherin he doth nothing lesse then yeild to any sound reason alledged but vngodlily cauilleth at and peruersly wresteth the sence of so much as he toucheth I seeing no cause of further strife his former convinced to intermedle againe with perticular handling of his chaffe and smoke his reasons in effect the same before āswered haue only thought it my dutie to illustrate vnto the Readers some few brief poincts abused by him that they may the better be able to iudge of the former writings where vnto with these few helpes following I refer the trial WHeras I alledged out of the 8. to the Rom. and out of the 4. to the Galath that in the verie time and action of our praying to God the spirit of God was the only help no other help mentioned or that can be collected in the Scriptures Mr. Giffard having granted that reading prayer is not praying doth now answere that howsoeuer the Scripture doth extol and magnifie outward helpes and meanes yet when they are compared with God which worketh all in all by them or when the Scripture will set forth the efficacie and worke to be his alone they are either not mentioned or els if they be mentioned so cast downe as if they were nothing God buyldeth his Church saith he by the ministerie of men yet Paul is said to plant Apollos to Water but God to gyve the encrease 1. Cor 3. and therfore to gather from those places Rom. 8. Gala 4. that there neede or may be no outward help or meanes in the verie action and instant of praying is far awrye In which answer it euidētly appeareth he is so bent to turne away all truth and raise new strife as ther can be no expectation of agreement There is no sequence neither doth the scripture alledged prove his owne reasō so that nothing hāgs togeather No mā doubteth but that sometimes and in some places of scripture the outward meanes of begetting and encreasing faith is only recited ād sometimes the secret work of Gods spirit only sometimes both when yet they are not diuided but goe together ād all of God both inward worke and outward meanes though in way of comparison I never so read but rather the one repeated for both For shal I say that when the work of God and preaching therof is shewed to be the power of God vnto saluation that the inward worke of the Spirit is therfore not mentioned because the other is of God then both inward and outward meanes being of God ād God 's owne worke though the one by instrument that there is silencing of the one in way of cōparison is not true But all this is nothing to our matter He should plainly haue affirmed that frō these places Rō 8. ād Gal. 4. it cānot be proued that in the very instāt tyme ād actiō of owre praying to God the spirit only instructeth without outward helpes of instruction and he should haue seene I could proue as thē I did the contrarie vnto him Rō 8.26 The spirit doth together supplye or help our infirmities for we knowe not what to pray as we ougt but the spirit yt self maketh request for vs with sighes ād grones vnvtterable In the actiō of praying the spirit is here set downe in this place to be the meanes and help of instructiō teaching vs to aske aright no other meanes or helpes of instruction in that instant time and action of praying mentioned in this or any other place of scripture Therfore in the time of our praying and laying our hearts opē to God the Spirit only doth instruct and openeth our mouth In this place let the word synan●ilambanetai be wel considered Againe Gal. 4.6 it is said because yee are sonnes God sent the Spirit of his Sonne into your hearts crying Abba Father The Argumēt here is the same thet before this word crying sheweth the worcke of his Spirit or rather office in our continuall occasions of prayer to direct vs to vnburden and vnfold the heart so that in the instāt action we see no other And where I shewed him that reading in the actiō of praying could not be caled an help of instructiō at that time whē we were powring forth our hearts vnto God the eyes and hāds lyft vp to heaue our meditation fixed vpō our knowē occasions and heart and mouth vnfolding thē my reason this That the minde and bodie could not be intent vpō two diuerse distinct and seueral exercises and duties of minde and bodie at one time and instāt he inverteth my words and stealeth thē as a new shift to help him self as he supposeth returning thē thus in way of question demanding whether fasting lyfting vp our eyes and hāds to heauē prostrating the bodie and kneeling be praier yt self or outward meanes and helpes to make the prayer more fervēt Euery simple mā wil laugh at him saith he if he make thē prayer ytself ād if they be helpes thē I haue brought the former proofes not frō an idle but from an vnsound brayne Leaue scorning and reproch and consider what helpes we did al this time intreate of was yt not instructiō of the minde by some other spiritual exercise then prayer in praying wil he call fasting kneeling etc. instructions of the minde what to pray thē he must needs plead for his Image and al poperie if these bodily actions and gestures be instructiō of the minde which are but preparations to make the body serviceable ād apt to ād in this dutie Further how learnedly he disputeth to make reading one of these bodily gestures or bodily actions only let it be cōsidered of And as he cōfoundeth these bodily exercises and spirituall exercises so he sheweth himself ignorant and vnable to discerne spiritual gyftes and exercises one from an other with the distinct vse of them demanding whither the voyce of an other tha● prayeth be an outward help or prayer yt self an outward meanes to make our prayer more fervent He thinketh I will be laught at if I say it be prayer yt self Sure if in anie assemblie or where two or three are in Christs name gathered together epito●uto and homothymadon vnto the same thing and with one minde for avoyding confusion they do vse but one voice and that by Gods order and
spirit is by the worke of the spirit to bring fourth of our hearts praier to God which is than in truth when yt agreeth to Gods word But reading is another matter namely a receauing of instruccion into the heart from the booke Out of the first Mr. GIFFORD maketh men beleeue he hath fetched two heresies the one a perfection of faith the other that faith cannot be ioyned vnto or stand vvith anie outvvard helpes for the encrease therof Litle marueile he found so m●nie heresies in our whole writinges that could finde two or three in my first reason but that you may remember your self better though you had two yeares to consider I will bring the wordes before you againe if peradventure you may have grace to call backe yourself I said if the sighes and groanes in that kinde of praying were of faith yt would minister matter without a booke this sentence I may confirme by manie testimonies of scripture that no peruerted spirit can gainesay or resist the scripture teacheth vs euery where that in praying the spirit onlie helpeth our infirmities no other helpes mentioned or can be collected in the present action of prayer through the Scripture He hath sent into our hearts the spirit of his Sonne crying ABBA Father vve beleeue therfore vve speake Yet here is not anie shew of perfectiō of faith but of the contrary praying for our wantes But this may be gathered that God onely accepteth the fruits of his owne spirit in prayer and requireth no more of anie but that euerie one according to the proportion of faith pray vnto him as occasion in them requireth Nowe to conclude that because in praying we neede not a booke to speake for vs when the heart it self and booke of our Conscience speaketh with God that therefore fayth neuer needeth instruction but is perfect were sclanderous false and senselesse The cause then of these heresies proceed hereof that your selfe Mr. GIFFORD would needes frame two syllogismes and in the moodes of your malice cōstraine the proposition of the present action in praying to a general sentence of all times and actions though both our question here was of the verie action of praying and in the conclusion of that very poynt within six lynes after this you had these wordes Euen in the time of their begging at Gods hands so that these heresies must be Mr. Giffords and not myne seeing they are found to be coyned of his idle brayne and godles heart only to defame the trueth But say you the most part are ignorant weake short of memorie c. therefore need al helps to stir them vp to pray c. where by your own confession reading is not praying but a help to stir vp to pray And euen hereupon all our errours arise that you cannot discerne the difference of spirituall gifts with the distinct vse of them We doubt not but before prayer and all the dayes of our life we haue neede of helps of instruction to praye aright and for the fitnes of the mind and bodie often fasting reading meditating etc. are great helpes to go before to humble our selues in praying but in the present action of prayer when the heart is talking with God the eyes hands etc. with attention lift vp to heauē al the powers of our soules and bodies conuersant with God to take a booke and read cannot be called in this action a help but a confounding of the mind of Gods ordinances and a doing we know not what though before and after it be an excellent meanes ordeyned of God to instruct vs to pray and al other dueties As for the confirmation you talke of where I alleadged that a troubled minde is the penne of a readie writer therfore needeth not a booke to speake for yt in the action of praying By troubled minde i vnderstood such a minde as is presētly moued with the sight of some sinne or vrged by other occasion a broken spirit a broken and contrite heart ād not such a minde as in dispayre or doubt ys perplexed and that the heart which is moued in faith with present occasion to call vpon God is the penne of a readie writer that is hath matter ād wordes enough without a booc● to vtter yt owne wantes we may reade throughout the Psalmes My throte is dry saith David I am vvearie with crying c. But here againe instead of answere you tell me I runne vppon the rocke of an hereticall opiniō of perfection Wherin i wonder but that i perceaue your right eye is blinded you should be so carelesse what you say nay what after two yeares studie you put in prynt Doth it follow that because the heart moued with occasion through the worke of faith hath wordes and matter enough in praying without a booke to speake for yt that therfore faith is perfect let equal Iudges cōsider Here you say manie are so troubled perplexed in minde that they cannot pray till they haue some consolation by the direction of others which whē they cannot haue reading vpon a booke is a notable help I allowe al this and agree if you would make reading one thing and prayer an other divers exercises of the spirit etc. But in the verie action of praying to haue an other speake vnto vs never so good wordes of exhortation were but a confounding of the minde and actiō and an abuse of both those holie exercises Euen so by your owne comparison reading vpon a booke in the action of praying seing we cannot do both at once Yt is the Spirit of God in the verie action of prayer that helpeth our infirmities David in praying finding his soule heauie stirreth vp himself thus My soule whie art thou cast downe whie art thou disquieted within me waite on God For I will yet giue him thākes my presēt help and my God He had a troubled minde his mouth wanted no wordes to prouoke the Lorde to heare his complaint and his heart to waite vpon the Lorde and so through all the Psalmes you shall finde the conversing of the soule with God to be such as yt were a mockery to think reading vpon a booke could haue anie place in that action or that anie mans writing could lay out the present estate of the soule with the passions therof The Priest may say my booke whie art thou so euill prynted for whē they reade the heart cānot reasō and talke with God To the second poynt which was but your bare assuming of the question to say a man may pray by the spirit vpon a booke c. I alleadged that to worship God in spirit is when the inward faith of the heart bringeth fourth true invocation etc. this you graunt to be most true and that none other is accepted of GOD then that which proceedeth from the inward faith of our owne heart But you think that reading vpon a booke is to bring fourth of the heart true inuocatiō This cannot be if we consider the difference