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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
duty_n	husband_n	love_n	wife_n	8,272	5	8.0646	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A92138	The divine right of church-government and excommunication: or a peacable dispute for the perfection of the holy scripture in point of ceremonies and church government; in which the removal of the Service-book is justifi'd, the six books of Tho: Erastus against excommunication are briefly examin'd; with a vindication of that eminent divine Theod: Beza against the aspersions of Erastus, the arguments of Mr. William Pryn, Rich: Hooker, Dr. Morton, Dr. Jackson, Dr. John Forbes, and the doctors of Aberdeen; touching will-worship, ceremonies, imagery, idolatry, things indifferent, an ambulatory government; the due and just powers of the magistrate in matters of religion, and the arguments of Mr. Pryn, in so far as they side with Erastus, are modestly discussed. To which is added, a brief tractate of scandal ... / By Samuel Rutherfurd, Professor of Divinity in the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. Published by authority.	Rutherford, Samuel, 1600?-1661.	1646 (1646)	Wing R2377; Thomason E326_1; ESTC R200646	722,457	814

of men those belong to the Magistrate and to his civill power Yet he cannot deny but the Churches power in judging and punishing here is formally spirituall and objectively and unproperly civill so say I the Mgaistrates power in spirituall causes is formally civill and objectivel● only spirituall and he neither hath nor needeth any spirituall power formally to attain his temporall end nor needeth the Church any power formally civill to attain her spirituall end The reason is because powers have their specification and nature from their formall object not from the materiall because the Magistrate punisheth here●ies and false Doctrine as they disturbe the Peace of the civill State therefore his power is civill and because the Church censureth unjustice incest 1 Cor. 5 1 2. and sins against the second Table because they are scandalous in the Church and maketh the name of God to be ill spoken of though materially those sins be punishable by the Magistrate yet is the Churches power spirituall because it judgeth those as scandalous and offensive to God and therefore the power is spirituall because the object to wit as scandalous to the Church and as offensive to God is spirituall even as destructive to civill Peace is formally a civill object 2. The Magistrate without any spirituall power judges what is the true Church and true ordinances setteth them up by his sword he doth set them up only for a civill end because they conduce most for the peace and flourishing condition of the civill state whereof he is head not that the members of his state may attain life eternall for the Magistrate intendeth life eternall to his subjects in setting up a true Church and true Ordinances not as a Magistrate but as a godly man As the woman of Samaria brought out the Samaritanes that they might receive Christ in their heart by saith as she had done But as a Magistrate he intendeth not life eternall to his subjects so a Master as a Master hireth a man to serve who is a believer and as a Master he judgeth such a one will be most faithfull and active in his service now the Master judgeth him not to be a Saint that he may be a fit member of the Church The Church only as the Church is to judge so of this servant nor doth he judge him a believer that he may obtain life eternall nor doth he love and chuse him as his servant that he may obtain life eternall Christians as Christians judge and love one another that way So the Husband as a Husband doth chuse a believing woman for his Wife judging she will perform the duties of a Wife better then an unbelieving Wife he judgeth her to be a believer as a Husband and loveth her with a husband-Husband-love as a Husband but if he love her because the image of God is in her and as an heir of life eternall then he loveth her as a Christian man not as a Husband and it is a Christian love he hath to her such as he hath to other godly women that are also co heirs with himself of life eternall and this is a lawfull and a Christian love But if this Husband should bear a Husband-love such as he doth to his own Wife to all other godly Wives it should be an adulterous and unlawfull love So the Magistrate as a Magistrate judges loves chuses and setteth up true Ordinances a true Church as means of a flourishing Kingdom and of externall Peace and pulleth down the contrary as means destructive to the peace and safety of his subjects But he judgeth not in a spirituall manner and with any spirituall power of the sword of those as fitting and conducing to life eternall and inward peace of conscience with God but as a justified and believing Saint he judgeth chuseth and loveth Ordinances and the true Church in this consideration and no wise as a Magistrate If those Relations of Magistrate and Christian had been considered by the Author he had not compared the Magistrate punishing idolatry to the Dragon and the godly Pastors who exhort the Magistrate to punish false teachers to the Beast and the false Prophet who maketh war with the Lambe For the godly magistrate who advanceth the throne of the Lambe is praise worthy he doth cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord Psal 101. 8. and doth this as a Magistrate that his Kingdome might have peace and well grounded prosperity but as a man according to Gods heart he doth it formally set on high the throne of the Lambe nor would he have compared those worthy and dear brethren of New England the Saints of the most high especially reverend Master Cotton to the frogs that proceeded out of the mouth of the false Prophet Rev. 17. 3. Nor do the Papists use this argument at all but another argument and for a contrary conclusion for the Pope as the Pope is an earthly Monarch and as Pope hath power to translate Crowns and Kingdoms and as Pope the Holy Ghost in him commandeth the Kings of the Earth to make war with the Lambe and his followers as Papists teach do we ascribe any such power be the Church or Churchmen are Malignants Prelates and Papists the followers of the Lambe Obj. 7. If the people may erect what government they will and seems most fit for their civill condition then governments by them so erected have no more power nor for no longer time then the civill power or people consenting and agreeing shall betrust them with for people are not deprived of their naturall freedom by the power of tyrants And if so that Magistrates receive their power of governing the Church from the people Then a people as a people naturally considered of what Nature or Nation soever in Europe Asia Africa America have fundamentally and originally as men a power to govern the Church to see her do her duty to correct her to redresse to reform to establish c. And this is to subject God Christ heaven the spirit to naturall sinfull and unconstant men Indian and American governments are as true and lawfull governments as in the world and therefore their governours are keepers of the Church and of both Tables if any Church should arise or be amongst them and therefore if Christ have betrusted the civill power with his Church they must judge according to their Indian and American consciences for others they have not Ans 1. No doubt the power that makes Magistrates because of vertue and dexterity to govern may unmake them when they turn tyrants and abuse their power and upon the same ground as men create Magistrates so Christian men as Christian men act to chuse Christian and gracious Magistrates as if a Husband as a man chuse a Wife as grace perfumeth and spiritualizeth all the common actions of men so Christian men are to chuse Christian Wives Christian Masters Christian servants so is a Church to chuse a Christian not an American Magistrate

as Saylors subjects these reduplications be consening and deceiving notions painters as painters are regulated by Art subject to be judged by painters but as men they are subjects so are Ministers as men subject to Cesar as Ministers they are the servants of Christ not subjects Ob. As Ministers they are either Magistrates or subjects but Ministers as Ministers are not Magistrates He that is not with Christ is against him M. Coleman in his Brotherly examination p. 21. saith He that doth not manage his office under Christ and for Christ must manage it under the Devil and for the Devil if therefore the Christian Magistrate do not manage his office under and for Christ he must manage it under or for the Devil which were blasphemous Ans I deny the Major proposition Ministers as Ministers are neither Magistrates nor subjects but formally the separated servants of Christ set a part for the work of gathering the Saints Now to be subjects is to be judged by the Magistrate in those things in which they are subjects that is in all Civill businesse they are and false teaching discerned by the Church to be false teaching or in case the Church corrupt themselves then are Ministers obnoxions to bodily punishment to be inflicted by the Magistrate But this is properly to be a subject of the Magistrate to be lyable to the civill cognizance trying and bodily punishment inflicted by the Magistrate and to be a subject and a member of the other Kingdome is to be subject to the Ecclesiasticall cognizance tryall and censure of the Church as a matter that concerneth the soul hence the former concerneth the body and outward man the latter the inner man and the soul 2. The former concerneth peace with men and edification to be procured by a mean extrinsecall to edification to wit by the sword the latter concerneth peace with God by a spirituall sword the Word of God 3. The former is carnall and of the Kingdome of this world the latter spirituall and of Christs other Kingdome that is not of this world Ioh. 18. 36. 4. The former worketh by coaction and bodily violence the latter by removing unwillingnesse and making a rebellious soul obedient 5. The former is an act of justice not terminated on repentance or the mans turning to God as an end for whether this end be obtained or no the Magistrate is to use the sword the other is terminated on repentance as its end He that is not with Christ is against Christ and with the Devil It s true in all professors of the Gospel as professors no man but he must be either on the one side or on the other either for or with Christ or against him But it is not true with every reduplication thus Ministers as Ministers are subjects of or to the King and to obey him in the Lord and so with Christ hath this sense Ministers essentially and formally are subjects of or to the King to obey him in the Lord so as Ministers do lose the essence and formality of the office of the Ministery if they be not the Kings subjects and with Christ this is most false for Iudas should not be a Minister of Christ then in that he was not subject to the Law of Cesar that is that the servant and disciple should be for and under his master and Lord it only followeth Ergo Iudas was not a godly Minister but under the Devil not under Christ Magistrates do neither essentially as Magistrates cleave to Christ nor ●ight against Christ but as holy men they cleave to Christ as sinfull men they fight against Christ 2. Master Coleman knoweth that we speak of the office of a Magistrate as a Magistrate not under the accidents of Christian or heathenish there was no reason he should apply his Argument to the Parliament except to make us odious as if we did not as much honour or pray for the Parliament and King as himselfe But it concludeth equally against all Magistrates and let him see it in a heathen Magistrate as a Magistrate for a heathen Magistrate as a Magistrate doth either manage his office under Christ and for Christ or under the Devil and for the Devil This I and Master Coleman also shall deny for a heathen Magistrate as a Magistrate doth not manage his office under or for Christ as mediator because he is utterly ignorant of Christ for he hath no more but what God as creator and nature gave him saith Master Coleman pag. 20. and the other horne of the Argument is as weak for this The heathen Magistrate as such manageth his office under or for the Devil is blasphemous for so Magistracy and the office should be intrinsecally unlawfull and for the Devil But it is intrinsecally the Ordinance of God Rom. 13. and apply this to God as creator it shall appear of force The Magistrate as the Magistrate doth either manage his office under and for God creator or under and for the Devil The former part is true because God creator and nature made the office of Magistracy apply it to a heathenish husband Father Master Musitian Painter under these reduplications and it shall make the relation of Husband Devilish or this proposition a Husband a Father as a Father and a Husband manage their office under and for Christ the mediator or under or for the Devil is most false and blasphemous the former part is false for there should have been and was Father and Husband which did manage the duties of these relations for God creator not for Christ mediator though Christ had never taken on our nature never been mediator never been King and Priest of his redeemed Church The latter part is blasphemous for then Adam had managed the part of Husband and Father under the Devil and for the Devil even before he fell in sinne and in the state of Innocency 3. Mr. Colemans meaning is that the Magistrate as the Magistrate and by office is under Christ mediator as his supream and immediate vicegerent as mediator now in this sense Christs saying he that is not against us is with us shall not prove the truth of the proposition which must be this and is most false to wit that The Magistrate as the Magistrate by office is either under Christ mediator as the supream and immediate vicegerent of him as mediator or he is by office under the Devil This we deny for one might argue thus of the Apostle Paul who was either as an Apostle for Christ or against Christ Paul as an Apostle is either under Christ the mediator and his supream and immediate vicegerent having power of both Swords or he is under the Devil The proposition is most false for Paul is neither of them so say we here the Magistrate doth neither manage his office as a Magistrate under Christ mediator as his Vicar and a little head of the Church nor yet doth the Magistrate manage his office under or for the

Devil God save the Magistrate datur tertium he is for Christ as a Christian and as a Christian but as a Magistrate he is not for Christ as mediator that is as having his office of Christ as mediator and being from Christ a Magistrate that is as M. Coleman expoundeth it an officer having power of both the Swords for Mr. Coleman saith p. 20. Christian Magistracy is an Ecclesiasticall administration Ergo he hath the power of the Spirituall Sword and Paul Rom. 13. saith he hath from God the power of the other Sword Yea we cannot say that a Magistrate as a Magistrate or a Minister as a Minister are either redeemed and saved in Christ nor no redeemed or no saved in Christ but in another reduplication The Magistrate as a Magistrate is not redeemed but as an elected man nor is he damned or not redeemed as a Magistrate but as a reprobate and an unbeleeving man and the like I say of a Minister he that is not with Christ as his immediate and supream swordbearer is not against Christ for so all the world except the Prince should be against him Obj. 5. The Magistrate as he defendeth the body and goods so also the the fame of men hence what is a matter of good or ill report is judged by the Magistrate who may put ill doers to shame Iudg. c. 187. But Church scandals blasphemy heresie apostacy are matters of ill report and of shame Ergo they are to be judged by the Magistrate Ans Non concluditur negatum We deny not but the Magistrate may judge and put to shame offenders but it is civill shame by which the Magistrate judgeth any offender to be an evill Citizen and hurtfull member of the common-wealth Iudg. 18. 17. The Church hath no power thus to judge or thus to put to shame But there is an Ecclesiasticall shame in which the Church judgeth whether such a man be a sound and faithfull subject of the Kingdome of Christ or a hurtfull Member of the Church and of this shame speaketh Paul 2 Thess 3. 14. keep no company with him that he may be ashamed and the same way we are to distinguish a good name for it is an honour that it be said of any man as Psal 87. This man was borne in Zion Obj. 6. What the Magistrate as a Magistrate punisheth that as a Magistrate he judgeth but as a Magistrate he punisheth Idolatry and heresie Ergo as a magistrate he judgeth it Ans What the Magistrate punisheth that he judgeth distinguo What he punisheth that he judgeth the way that he punisheth for as he punisheth civilly and with the sword so he judgeth in a civill way not as a Church scandal but as a civill disturbance 2. In a constitute Church by a subsequent judging after those whose lips should preserve knowledge have judged it to be Idolatry and heresie he is to judge it and in order to corporall punishment its true and thus the Major is granted But the assumption is false for the Magistrate judgeth nothing as scandalous no Idolatry or heresie with an antecedent judgement and with order to Ecclesiasticall punishment to gain the soul Obj. But there is no other judging or punishing required but such as the magistrate inflicteth Ans This is a false principle and everteth all Church Government Obj. 7. But so you make two supream magistrates the King and the Church two collaterall supremacies yet so as the magistrates conscience lyeth under the feet of the Church Ans The Church hath a Ministery no dominion of Magistracy 2. There is a collaterality without equality The Magistrate is highest and worthiest the other hath no dignity no supereminency but to be authoritative declarers of the mind of Christ 3. The Magistrate is no more tyed to the judgement of a Synod or Church then any private man is tyed in his practice the tye in Discipline and in all Synodicall acts and determinations is here as it is in preaching the Word the tye is secondary conditionall with limitation in so farre as it agreeth with the Word not absolutely obliging not Papal qua or because commanded or because determined by the Church and such as Magistrates and all Christians may reject when contrary to or not warranted by the Word of God Obj. 8. But Pastors have authority equally immediate and independent under God as the magistrate hath and what more can they have except the Crowne and Scepter is not this an emulous and odious equality beside a collaterality hence they cry the liberty the liberty of the Kingdome of Christ the right the power of the Church is taken away so often as the magistrate punisheth scandals Ans Non-subordination can never inferre equality who denieth that the Magistrate may command the Husband and Wife to do a duty to each other the father not to provoke the son the sonne not to disobey the Father the Pastor and People the Master and Servant the Captaine and Souldier to do a duty each one to another And there is a proper right and liberty and power immediately given by God without the King or Magistrates interposing of their authority to all these the Kings authority maketh not the man a Father nor the Sonne subject to the Father nor the Servant to the Master nor the Souldier to the Commander God immediately made those powers and God in the Law of nature hath given a power to the Father over the sonne without the Magistrate yea though there had never been a Magistrate in the world so the Pastors and Elders by divine institution have a power and liberty to feed and governe the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made them overseers and set them over as those who must give an account to the great Shepherd Acts 20. 28 29. 1 Thes 5. 12 13. Heb. 13. 17. 1 Tim. 5. 17. now it no more followeth that all Fathers are equall to the Magistrate all Masters all Captains to the King then that the Church or Pastors are equall to the King for Fathers Masters Captaines Husbands have immediately from God in the Law of Nature a supream a high and independent Authority as the Church hath without any intervention of the will or authority of King or any earthly Magistrate and without any subordination as they are such to the Prince 2. The emulation between the Magistrate and Pastors is no more in point of government then in point of preaching exhorting rebuking even of Kings and all that are in Authority now we have both demonstrated from the Word and have the grant of Adversaries that in point of preaching and rebuking the Pastors have an immediate supremacy and independency under Iesus Christ and all emulation here is from men who will no● submit to the yoke of Christ 3. If the Magistrate should usurpe over Husbands and Masters and Fathers their jus maritale herile Paterum and spoil them of Husband-power and masterly and fatherly power as our Adversaries counsell the Magistrate to take

and people which is the highest Papall Tyranny on earth Obj. 3. If the Magistrate be therefore subject to the Church not as a Magistrate but as he scandalously transgresseth the Law of God so that the Church may not rebuke and censure him as either a Magistrate or as a Magistrate doing his duty but onely as a Transgressor Then neither 1. one particular Pastor as a Pastor is subject to the Church yea no man in a lawfull calling or relation as such is subject to the Church for the Church cannot rebuke or censure a Husband as a Husband a father as a father a Painter as a Painter no more then the Church can censure a Magistrate as a Magistrate for then should the Church censure and condemn all these relations and callings as husband father painter Magistrate as intrinsecally unlawfull Nor can the Church censure and rebuke husband father painter musitian c. when they do right and doe but fulfill their relations and callings in doing the duties of husband father painter no more then the Church can censure and rebuke the Magistrate when he doth his dutie Ans 1. This is not the totall compleat and adequate cause why the Magistrate in spirituall things is subject to the Church but the halfe of the cause onely you must take in the other consideration he is in spiritualibus subject to the Church not only as he doth sin but 1. As he may sin scandalously 2. As he may be directed informed and swayed with precepts promises counsels threatnings toward a supernaturall end to eternall life take in all these three and we grant all The Magistrate and all in other relations and professions and callings are equally in spirituall things subject to the Church as the Ministers of Christ and in all other relations and callings as fathers husbands painters musitians are in civill things equally subject to the Magistrate according to the three former cases in a civill consideration Obj. 4. But then you must prove solidly from the word that the Magistrate is subject to the Church in spirituall things Ans It is enough if I prove that the Magistrate is subject to the Church to Pastors and Doctors in things belonging to his soule and as a man and a Christian in civill things are subject to him which to me is clear in the Word of God as 1. Because Timothy and all watchmen in their person are commanded to rebuke them that sin before all and that in the sight of God and the Lord Iesus and the elect Angels without preferring one before another or doing any thing by partialitie 1 Tim. 5. 20 21. 2 Tim. 4. 2. And if Levi must not know his father or his mother in the Lords cause Deut. 33. 9. and Ieremiah in rebuking not be dismayed of Kings Princes and Prophets Ier. 1. 17. neither must Ministers accept the persons of judges Christ rebuked his mother to whom otherwise he was subject Ioh. 2. 4. Luke 2. 51. 2. There is the practise of the Prophets Christ and the Apostles that they have rebuked Kings Rulers Magistrates Priests Prophets every page almost of the Old and New Testament saith this 3. God hath no whit exempted the Rulers from rebukes as they be men they can and do sin 4. Princes are the sheep of Christ and redeemed as a part of the flock for the which Christ gave the blood of God Ergo they are to be fed and watched over lest they also as grievous wolves prey upon the flock Acts 20. 28 29 30. then there must be some over them and those who should speake the word of the Lord to them and so the word of rebuke and who should watch for the souls of Magistrates as those who must give an account whom the Magistrates must obey as others in the same condition who have souls Heb. 13. 7 17. 1 Pet. 5. 1 2 3. 1 Thes 5. 12 13 14. 5. All the censures of the Church are for the good of soules that the Spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord 2 Thes 3. 14 15. 1 Tim. 1. 19 20. 1 Cor. 5. 5 6. and for edification 2 Cor. 10. 8. Iude v. 23. Ergo the souls of Magistrates should not be defrauded of this mean of edification 6. Pastors as Ministers Stewards Ambassadors Watchmen are intrusted with the word of reconciliation 1 Cor. 4. 1 2. and 1 Cor. 3. 5. and 4. 15. 2 Cor. 5. 19 20. 1 Tim. 3. 1. 2 Cor. 4 7. Ergo they must divide the Word aright to all within the family 2 Tim. 2. 15. and rebukes and censures are a part of the word of reconciliation no lesse then promises and they are to prophecy death and life as God in his word commandeth Ezek. 3. 17 18 19 20. and 13. 19. and 33. 7 8 9. 10. 7. The power of the Lord Jesus in censuring is extended to men as ●ll doers not as Magistrates or not Magistrates 1 Cor. 5. 2. Gal. 5. 10. the power of binding and loosing is extended to a trespassing brother who will not hear the Church Mat. 18. 15 16. and 16. 19 20. The Magistrate is a brother Deut. 17. 15. one of the Israel of God as Saul was of of the Tribe of Benjamin David of Iudah 8. The Church may judge such as are within the Church 1 Cor. 5. 12. but such is the Christian Magistrate 9. Correction is a priviledge of sons and Members of the family Heb. 12. 6 7. Rev. 3. 19. Ergo the Magistrate should not be deprived of that wherein all Christians share Gal. 2. 28. 10. Discipline is a part of Christs Kingly government if the government be on Christs shoulders as King as it is Mat. 28. 19 20. Ephes 4. 11 12. Esa 22. 22. and if the Gospel be the Word and Scepter of his Kingdome Mark 1. 14 15. and 4. 11. Matth. 21 43. Luke 4. 43. and 8. 1. Acts 1. 3. and 8. 12. and 20. 25. and 28. 31. Psal 45. 3. Rev. 1. 16. Then if Magistrates be the subjects of Christ as King of the Church they must be subject to those who preach the Kingdome carry the Scepter and rule under Christ as King 11. Upon the same ground if they decree grievous decrees Isa 10. 1. Micah 3. 1. and be wolves ravening the prey Ezek. 22. 27. let them have either Royall or Parliamentary power they are to be rebuked debarred from the holy things of God excommunicated and their sins bound in earth as in heaven Mat. 18 18. Mat. 16. 19. Nor should Courts or Parliaments or Thrones be cities of refuge to unjust and scandalous men 12. Upon the same ground Magistrates are not to be deprived of the good of private rebukes and admonitions except we hate the Magistrate in our heart and strive not to gain his soul Levit. 19. 17. Mat. 18. 15 16. Luk. 17. 3 4. Psal 141. 5. 13. Erastus himself granteth that Magistrates may be rebuked and when he granteth that Apostates and Idolaters are not

your selfe I am not to reprove a scorner because of the scandall he shall but trample as a sow upon any word of reproofe yet the scandall were causle●ly taken if we should doe so The good word of God should furnish no just cause to him yet am I not taking from God his due and your bare word that this is disobedience to Superiours not to practise Pearth Ceremonies is not enough to us 2. Your probation is weak That children and wife keep company with the Excommunicate father is a commandement of the law of nature and Gods necessary law and to deny this to an husband and father is such a sinne as the eschewing of a scandall can never legitimate but I hope kneeling to Bread and Crossing and Surplice commanded in our Canons and Service-book are at the best commanded by a positive law and not commanded in the law of nature and so very unlike to naturall duties that wife and children owe to father and husband 3. I retort this Argument We may not wrong men in that which is their due Ergo We may not wrong God in his due but it is his due Murther not him for whom Christ died practise not Ceremonies before the weake who shall be scandalized thereat Duplyers 5. arg n. 40. What if the thing be commanded by the Civill Magistrate under paine of death and by Ecclesiasticall authoritie under paine of Excommunication shall we for feare of scandall causlesly taken which may be removed by information or for the scandall of the malitious abstaine from a thing lawfull and expedient injoyned by authoritie and incurre these grievous punishments of death temporall and spirituall We believe your selves who speake most of scandall would be loath to take such a yoake upon you Answer The first part of this Argument is Logick from a sore skinne That which we are bidden doe under paine of death that we must doe the just logick of the King of Babylon to prove it is lawfull to worship the Kings golden Image Dan. 3. 15. I have scarce heard Papists for shame presse to conclude the equity and lawfulnesse of a Law from the penaltie of a law Suffering as your Jesuits and Arminians teach you falleth not under Free-will and is not culpably evill nor is Excommunication except you be Papists death of the soule when the cause of Excommunication is not just and deserveth no censure but it may be some of you think Mr. Sibbald I know doth it that Navarrus and their Gregorie said true that unjust Excommunication is valid and to be feared but if this argument as I see not head nor feet in it be founded upon the lawfulnesse and expediencie of Ceremonies commanded then not to practise them at all So first they be lawfull 2 Expedient 3 Commanded by lawfull authority is sinne and all sinne is a death of the soule and then you may put your Argument from grievous punishments of body and soule in your pocket for it is of no use here for whether punishment Civill or Ecclesiastick follow upon disobedience to Superiours it is sinne 3. That none of us would die or be Excommunicated for eschewing Scandall is no good argument though many have suffered as hard as death banishment and proscription of all and Excommunication also But the truth is you might have said Shall we incurre for scandall the losse of our st●pends and one faire before the wind qualification for a Bishoprick Duplyers 6. arg pag. 64. n. 41. Sixtly The denying of obedien●e to the lawfull commandements of our Superiours is forbidden in the ●i●● commandement and consequently it is sinne shall we then for a scandall causlesly taken deny obedience to our Superiours and so incurre the guiltiness of sinne Ye commonly answer to this that the negative part of the fift Commandement w●●ch forbiddeth the resisting of the power Rom. 13 2. is to be understood with the exception of the case of any scandall taken by others For ●● we say say ●● that any may or will take offence at the ●●ing of that which is commanded by our Superiours we are not holden to oby them 42. But first we a●ke what ●arr and ye have ●o say that the negative part of the fift Commandement ●● to be understood w●●● the exception of the case of Scandall more then other negative precepts in the second Table Answer ● To fill the field an Argument already answered is brought again to make the figure of fi● up The refusall of the Ceremonies till they be tryed in lawfull Assembly is not forbidden in the fift Commandement prove that and take it with you 2. You bring an Answer as commonly given ●● us that is neither ours commonly nor rarely but it is good build a straw●astle and you may soone cost a fire-ball at it and blow it up We never taught that the negative part of the fif● Commandement is to be understood with the exception of the case of any scandall taken by others For this includeth all scandalls both passive and active Who of ours ever dreamed such a thing if Superiours command what God commandeth before them doe we teach that because others take scandall at that Command therefore we are not holden to obey that is scandall taken not given We teach no such thing Rulers command to honour father and mother if any take offence at this commandement and obedience to either the affirmative or negative part of it we are not to esteeme that scandall the weight of a feather the Commandement obliedgeth But this we teach if when the matter of the Commandement of Rulers is indifferent as you plead Ceremonies to be if from obeying of these any weake or wicked be scandalized then the Rulers doe command spirituall murther and then their commandement is no commandement no● is it the fift Commandement It is just like this You shall not refuse obedience to your Rulers commanding you to rubbe your beards when you come to the Church or to draw a crosse line with your thumbe in the aire above a baptized infants forehead though many soules by obedience to these Commandements be induced to love Poperie many be made sad thinking zealous Rulers love popish toyes better then the simplicitie of the Gospell Now such is the Commandements of Pearth-articles and these suffer no exceptions for we judge them no Commandements at all and if any such be injoyned upon pretence of any other of the nine Commandements we hold them to be impious commandements and no obedience to be given to them at all So if according to the sixt Commandement and the seven and eight Rulers command to run Carts amongst a multitude of young Children whence killing of some might fall out If they should command a young man and a faire virgine to chamber together and command Paul in the case he was at Corinth to take stipend though it should hinder the progresse of the Gospell as 1 Cor. 9. 23. all these were to command culpable scandalls and were unlawfull as