others and contrarily what one calls Vice an other calls Vertue as their present Affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed amongst the Vertues that which in my Opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whether do we Digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not Digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that past in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Counsels and Artifices by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have Written the History out of whom I might have Learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of it I would ask therefore since you were pleased to enter into this Discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method And for the danger of Confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A Well then to your Question concerning Religion Inasmuch as I told you that Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not Established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no obedience from the Laws of Men but because men can never by their own Wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and Commanded to be Observed nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiess in some humane Authority or other So that the Question will be Whether a man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his Duty to God and the King to rely upon the Preaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that point for there is none that Preach here or any where else at least ought to Preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power So that if the King give us leave you or I may as lawfully Preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle for in the Church of Rome the principle Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious to be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith that they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the Goodness and Wickedness of all Actions by their Congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Phylosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writingâ— B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who i◠〈◊〉 had Power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right Unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians doe to have a right from God immediately to Govern the King and his Subjects in all points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had Number and Strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to attain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a System of the present Morals written by some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such an one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading the Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way And yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them that were the most dilligent Preachers of the late Sedition were to be tried by it they would go near to be found Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches His Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgment of him is his Essence and his Attributes and in believing of his Word his Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those Seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of Holy Scripture received for Câ—nonical in England B. They receive the Word of God but 't is according to their own Interpretation A. According to whose Interpretation was it received by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to God's Will Did any of them nay did any Man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandments which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their Preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all Men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damned and for their Preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to God's revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought it so it was not Disobedience but Error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisy hath this great prerogative above other Sins that it cannot be accused A. Another Duty he sets down is to Honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty I think as well as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have Gods House free from profanation to have Tithes duly paid to have the Sabbath day kept Holy the Word Preached and the Lords Supper and Baptism duely Administred But is not the keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to
or Ministers or Assemblies that Govern the Church under him or them that have the Soveraign Power B. Some doubts may be raised from this that you now say for if men be to learn their Duty from the sentence which other men shall give concerning the meaning of the Scriptures and not from their own Interpretation I understand not to what end they were Translated into English and every man not only permitted but also exhorted to read them for what could that produce but diversity of Opinion and consequently as man's nature is Disputation breach of Charity Disobedience and at last Rebellion Again since the Scriptures were allowed to be read in English why were not the Translations such as might make all that 's read understood even by mean Capacities Did not the Jews such as could read understand their Law in the Jewish Language as well as we do our Statute Laws in English and as for such places of the Scripture as had nothing of the Nature of a Law it was nothing to the Duty of the Jews whether they were understood or not seeing nothing is punishable but the Transgression of some Law The same question I may ask concerning the New Testament for I believe that those Men to whom the Original Language was natural did understand sufficiently what Commands and Counsels were given them by our Saviour and his Apostles and his immediate Disciples Again how will you answer that question which was put by St. Peter and St. John Acts 4. 1◠when b◠Ananias the High-Priest and others of the Council of Jerusalem they were forbidden any more to teach in the name of Jesus whether is it right in the sight of God to hearken to you more than unto God A. The Case is not the same Peter and John had seen and daily conversed with our Saviour and by the Miracles he wrote did know he was God and consequently knew certainly 〈◊〉 their Disobedience to the High Priests present command was just Can any Minister now say that he hath immediately from God's own Mouth received a Command to disobey the King or know otherwise than by the Scripture that any Command of the King that hath the form and nature of a Law is against the Law of God which in divers places he directly and evidently Commandeth to obey him in all things The Text you cite doth not tell us that a Minister's Authority rather than a Christian King 's shall decide the questions that arise from the different Interpretations of the Scripture And therefore where the King is head of the Church and by consequence to omit that the Scripture it self was not receieved but by the Authority of Kings and States chief Judge of the Rectitude of all Interpretations of the Scripture to obey the King's Laws and publick Edicts is not to disobey and obey God a Minister ought not to think that his Skill in the Latine Greek or Hebrew Tongues if he have any gives him a priviledge to impose upon all his Fellow-subjects his own sense or what he pretends to be his sense of every obscure place of Scripture nor ought he as often as he hath found some fine Interpretation not before thought on by others to think he had it by inspiration as fine as he thinks it is not false and then all his Stubornness and Contumacy towards the King and his Laws is nothing but Pride of heart and Ambition or else Imposture And whereas you think it needless or perhaps hurtful to have the Scriptures in English I am of another mind There are so many places of Scripture easily to be understood that teach both true Faith and good Morality and that as fully as is necessary to Salvation of which no Seducer is able to dispose the mind of any ordinary Readers that the Reading of them is so profitable as not to be forbidden without great Damage to them and the Commonwealth B. All that is required both in Faith and Manner 's for Man's Salvation is I confess set down in Scripture as plainly as can be Children Obey you◠Parents in all things Servants obey your Masters Let all men be subject to the Higher Powers whether it be the King or those that are sent by him Love God with all your Soul and your Neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their Duty so to do they see not that the safety of the Commonwealth and consequently their own depends upon the doing of it Every man by Nature without Discipline does in all his Actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself by his Obedience he Reads that Covetousness is the Root of all Evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the Root of his Estate And so in other Cases the Scripture says one thing and they think another weighing the Commodities or Incommodities of this present Life only which are in their sight never putting into the Scales the Good and Evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All this is no more than happens where the Scripture is sealed up in Greek and Latine and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers but they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sence of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the Grounds of their Duty certainly cannot chuse but by reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and quality are followed by their inferiour Neighbours that look more upon the example of those Men whom they Reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease then upon precepts and Laws B. These men of the condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others these are therefore they that pretermitting the easiy places that teach them their Duty fall to scanning only the Mysteries of Religion Such as are how it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but one how the Deity could be made flesh how that flesh could be really present in many places at once where 's the place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines whether the Will of Man be free or govern'd by the Will of God whether Sanctity comes by inspiration or Education by whom Christ now speaks to us whether by the King or by the Bible to
which was not only false but also without any ground at all for a Suspicion B. It is a strange thing that Scholars obscure men that could receive no Charity but from the flame of the State should be suffered to bring their unnecessary Disputes and together with them their quarrels out of the Universities into the Commonwealth and more strange that the State should engage in their Parties and not rather put them both to silence A State can constrain Obedience but convince no Error nor alter the Mind of them that believe they have the better reason Suppression of Doctrines does but unite and exasperate that is increase both the malice and Power of them that have already believed them But what are the Points they disagree in Is there any Controversy between Bishop and Presbyterian concerning the Divinity oâ— Humanity of Christ Do either of them deny the Trinity or any Article of the Creed Does either Party Preach openly or Write directly against Justice Charity Sobriety or any other Duty necessary to Salvation except only the Duty to the King and not that neither but when they had a mind either to Rule or Destroy the King Lord have mercy upon us Can no body be saved that understands not their Disputations or is there more requisite either of Faith or Honesty for the Salvation of one Man than another What needs so much Preaching of Faith to us that are no Heathens and that believe already all that Christ and his Apostles have told us is necessary to Salvation and more too Why is there so little Preaching of Justice I have indeed heard Righteousness often recommended to the People but I have seldom heard the word Justice in their Sermons nay though in the the Latine and Greek Bible the word Justice occurr exceeding often yet in the English though it be a word that every man understands the word Righteousness which few understand to signify the same but take it rather for Righteousness of Opinion than of Action or Intention is put in the place of it A. I confess I know very few Controversies amongst Christians of points necessary to Salvation they are the Questions of Authority and Power over the Church or of Profit or Honour to Church-men that for the most part raise all the Controversies For what man is he that will trouble himself and fall out with his Neighbours for the saving of my Soul or the Soul of any other than himself When the Presbyterian Ministers and others did so furiously Preach Sedition and animate men to Rebellion in these late Wars Who was there that had not a Benefit or having one feared not to loose it or some other part of his Maintenance by the alteration of the Government that did voluntarily without any eye to reward Preach so earnestly against Sedition As the other party Preached for it I confess that for ought I have observed in History and other Writings of the Heathens Greek and Latine that those Heathens were not at all short of us in point of Vertue and Moral Duties notwithstanding that we have had much Preaching and they none at all I confess also that considering what harm might proceed form a Liberty that Men have upon every Sunday and oftner to Harangue all the People of a Nation at one time whilst the State is ignorant what they will say and that there is no such thing permitted in all the World out of Christendom nor therefore any Civil Wars about Religion I have thought much Preaching an inconvenience nevertheless I cannot think that Preaching to the People the points of their Duty both to God and Man can be too frequent so it be done by Grave Discreet and Antient men that are Reverenced by the People and not by light quibling young men whom no Congregation is so simple as to look to be taught by as being a thing contrary to nature or to pay them any Reverence or to care what they say except some few that may he delighted with their Jingling I wish with all my Heart there were enough of such Discreet and Antient men as might suffice for all the Parishes of England and that they would undertake it but this is but a wish I leave it to the wisdom of the State to do what it pleaseth B. What did they next A. Whereas the King had sent Prisoners into Places remote from London three Persons that had been condemned for publishing seditious Doctrine some in Writing some in publick Sermons that Parliament whether with his Majesties consent or no I have forgotten caused them to be released and to Return to London meaning I think to try how the People would be pleased therewith and by consequence how their endeavours to draw the Peoples Affections from the King had already prospered when these three came through London it was a kind of Triumph the People flocking together to behold them and receiving them with such Acclamations and almost Adoration as if they had been let down from Heaven Insomuch that the Parliament was now sufficiently assured of a great and tumultuous Party whensoever they should have occasion to use it on confidence whereof they proceeded to their next Plot which was to deprive the King of such Ministers as by their Courage Wisdom and Authority they thought most able to prevent or oppose their further Designs against the King And first the House of Commons resolv'd to impeach the Earl of Strafford Lord Lieutenant of Ireland of High-Treason B What was that Earl of Strafford before he had that Place And how had he offended the Parliament or given them cause to think he would be their Enemy For I have heard that in former Parliaments he had been as Parliamentary as any other A. His name was Sr. Thomas Wentworth a Gentleman both for birth and estate very considerable in his own Country which was Yorkshire but more considerable for his Judgment in the Publick Affairs not only of that Country but generally of the Kingdom either as Burgess for some Borrough or Knight of the Shire for his Principles of Politicks they were the same that were generally proceeded upon by all Men else that are thought fit to be chosen for the Parliament which are commonly these To take for the Rule of Justice and the Government the Judgments and Acts of former Parliaments which are commonly called Precedents to Endeavour to keep the People from being Subject to Extra-Parliamentary Taxes of money And from being with Parliamentary Taxes too much oppressed to preserve to the People their Liberty of Body from their Arbitrary Power of the King out of Parliament To seek Redress of Grievances B. What Grievances A. The Grievances were commonly such as these the Kings too much Liberality to some favorite The too much power of any Minister of State or Officer the Misdemeanours of Judges Civil or Spiritual but especially all Unparliamentary raising of Mony upon the Subjects And commonly of late till such grievances be redressed they refuse
for an example that is for a prejudice in the like case hereafter B. That is worse then the Bill it self and is a plain conâ—ession that their sentence was unjust for what harm is there in the example of just sentences besides if hereafter the like case should happen the sentence is not at all made weaker by such a provision A. Indeed I believe that the Lords most of them were not willing to condemn him of Treason they were awed to it by the clamor of the Common People that came to Westminster crying out Justice Justice against the Earl of Strafford the which were caused to flock thither by some of the House of Commons that were well assured after the Triumphant Welcom of Prinne Burton and Bastwick to put the People into Tumult upon any occasion they desired they were awed unto it partly also by the House of Commons it self which if it desired to undo a Lord had no more to do but to Vote him a Delinquent B. A Delinquent what 's that A Sinner is 't not Did they mean to undoe all Sinners A By Delinquent they meant only a Man to whom they would do all the hurt they could but the Lords did not yet I think suspect they meant to Cashier their whole House B. It 's a strange thing the whole House of Lords should not perceive the ruine of the King's Power or weakening of themselves for they could not think it likely that the People ever meant to take the Soveraignty from the King to give it to them who were few in number and less in Power than so many Commoners because less beloved by the People A. But it seemes not so strange to me for the Lords â—or their personal abilities as they were no less so also were they no more Skilfull in the Publick affairs than the Knights and Burgesses for there is no reason to think that if one that is to day a Knight of the Shire in the Lower House be to morrow made a Lord and a Member of the Higher House is therefore wiser than he was before they are all of both Houses prudent and able Men as any in the Land in the business of their private Estates which requires nothing but dilligence and Natural Wit to Govern them but for the Government of a Commonwealth neither Wit nor Prudence nor Dilligince is enough without infallible rules and the true Science of Equity and Justice B. If this be true it is impossible any Commonwealth in the World whether Monarchy Aristocracy or Democracy should continue long without Change or Sedition tending to change either of the Government or of the Governours A. 'T is true nor have any the greatest Commonwealths in the World been long from Sedition the Greeks had it first their petty Kings and then by Sedition came to be Petty Commonwealths and then growing to be greater Commonwealths by Sedition again became Monarchies and all for want of rules of Justice for the Common people to take notice of which if the People had known in the beginning of every of these Seditions the Ambitious persons could never have had the hope to disturb their Government after it had been once settled for Ambition can do little without hands and few hands it could have if the Common People were as dilligently instructed in the true Principles of their Duty as they are terrified and amazed by Preachers with fruitless and dangerous Doctrines concerning 〈◊〉 Nature of Man's will and many other Phylosophical points that tend not at all to the Salvation of the Soul in the World to come nor to their ease in this life but only to the Discretion towards the Clergy of that Duty which they ought to perform to the King B. For ought I see all the States of Christendom will be subject to those fits of Rebellion as long as the World lasteth A. Like enough and yet the fault as I have said may be easily mended by mending the Universities B. How long had the Parliament now sitten A. It began Novemb. 3. 1640. My Lord of Strafford was Impeached of Treason before the Lords November 12. sent to the Tower Nov. 22. his Trial began March 22. and ended April 13. After his Trial he was voted guilty of High Treason in the House of Commons and after that in the House of Lords May 6. and on the 12 of May Beheaded B. Great expedition But could not the King for all that have saved him by a Pardon A. The King had heard all that passed at his Trial and had declared he was unsatisfied concerning the Justice of their Sentence and I think notwithstanding the danger of his own Person from the sury of the People and that he was counselled to give way to his Execution not only by such as he most relied on but also by the Earl of Strafford himself He would have pardoned him if that could have preserved him from the Tumult raised and countenanced by the Parliament it self for the terrifying oâ— those they thought might favour him and yet the King himself did not stick to confess afterwards that he had done amiss in that he did not rescue him B. 'T was an Argument of a good disposition in the King but I never read that Augustus Caesar acknowledged that he had a fault in abandoning Cicero to the fury of his Enemy Antonius perhaps because Cicero having been of the contrary Faction to his Father had done Augustus no service at all out of favour to him but only out of enmity to Antonius and of love to the Senate that is indeed out of love to himself that swayed the Senate as it is very likely the Earl of Strafford came over to the King's party for his own ends having been so much against the King in former Parliaments A. We cannot safely judge of Men's Intentions but I have observed often that such as feek preferment by their Stubbornness have missed of their aim and on the other side that those Princes that with preferment are forced to buy the Obedience of their Subjects are already or must be soon after in a very weak condition for in a Market where Honour is to to be bought with Stubborness there will be a great many as able to buy as my Lord Strafford was B. You have read that when Hercules fighting with the Hydra had cut of any one of his many Heads there still arose two other Heads in it's place and yet at last he cut them off all A. The Story is told false for Hercules at first did not cut off those Heads but bought them off and afterwards when he saw that did him no good then he cut them off and gâ—t the Victory B. What did they next B. After the first Impeachment of the Earl of Strafford the House of Commons upon December 18. accused the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury also of High Treason that is of a design to introduce Arbitrary Government c. For which he was February 18. sent to the Tower