Whosoeuer be not blamelesse may bee displaced Those who breake the peace of the Church and charitie as afore are not blameles Ergo they may be displaced And againe They whose calling to the ministerie is not from heauen nor outwardly lawfull by meanes of men they may be displaced Your calling to the ministerie in this Church of England is such as being vnlawful and Antichristian as you say Ergo by your owne rules you may be displaced for you were neuer well placed and as you ought to haue beene Ex ore tuo teipsum iudico serue nequam The 2. Demonstration Men carefull to discharge their dueties without impietie cannot be displaced Demonstration Such are these ministers Ergo Here is a goodlie praise and applauding to themselues Remonstrance they haue bin careful indeede to discharge that charge that their prouinciall hath laid vpon them to trouble the Church Your Maior is not necessarily true for a man may be carefull to doe his duetie and yet by preposterous zeale be caried to heresie and schisme The 3. Demonstration To depriue Gods people of spirituall comfort is wickednesse Demonstration To put to silence such ministers is to depriue Ergo To put to silence such Remonstrance is to stoppe the mouthes of the Praecision now as of the concision of olde of whom S. Augustine speaketh super 34. Psal quare in praecisione vultis magnificare nomen Domini The Maior here is as the other next afore I haue knowen a most lewde wretch who preached so commendably that the people tooke maruellous comfort to heare him and to be instructed by him yet the most partiall of your Elderships would not haue to lerated him in the ministery The 4. Demonstration That which is scandalous is an horrible sinne Demonstration To depriue the people is scandalous Ergo To the Minor It is scandall taken and not giuen Remonstrance The people had better learne nothing then learne the sinne of disobedience These reasons are as much as if a man shoulde affirme none could preach well but Schismatikes Scilicet The 5. Demonstration They whose labours God blesseth Demonstr cannot be displaced without impietie such are the ministers Ergo God doth blesse your such labours no more then Iudas his labours Remonstrance nor so much who for a while preached the Gospell yet may a bad man cast good seede into the grounde Doe as they say not as they doe saith Christ The 6. Demonstration That which giueth the enemies cause to reioyce is an offence To displace the ministers Demonstration giueth the enemie c. Ergo If any reioyce in euill let them answere for it themselues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a fault Remonstrance but Bishops doe their dueties to displace schismatikes that is but per accidens that it is to the reioycing of the enemie and they will not let to reioyce if an adulterous minister also be displaced being gladde that they may say such be among vs. The 7. Demonstration That which causeth the doers to be esteemed enemies to the Gospel is an heynous sinne Demonstration such is the silencing of those Ergo I answere with that sentence of Tully Non est tanta potest as in stultorum suffragijs Remonstrance There is no such estimate or reade in a fooles voyce or suffragie They are not worthie to rule in the Church that tender more what the ill aduised say of them then they doe the peace of Christes body the Church The 8. Demonstration That which letteth wickednesse to come in must needes be a sinne Demonstration To displace the ministers doth so Ergo It followeth not vpon euery sectarie ministers displacing Remonstran This is a partiall Syllogisme and in fauour of themselues No Sir I doubt not but better come in their places if they may haue like maintenance The 9. Demonstration That which interrupteth the course of the Gospell without warrant from Gods Lawe or lawe of the land is a sinne But to displace is so Ergo Demonstra It is likely this man hath beene conuented for his schisme Remonstrance and turbulencie of spirite and woulde not bee interrupted without a warrant from heauen or the lawe of the lande there is statute lawe and Canon lawe authorized by statute to plucke vp such bryers and thornes of these Malcontents out from amiddest the land and no daunger to interrupt thereby the course of the Gospel most of them preach nothing but inuectiues against things established Is this to preach the Gospel of peace The seuenteenth Chapter Assertion ADmonition belongeth to the Eldership Demonstration The 1. Demonstration 1 That which priuate men are commanded to seek vnto being offended for redresse of the offence Matth. 18.15 that is a necessary and ordinarie way for those who publikely offend 2 That which is more auaileable to repentance 3 That which maketh men more afraide to offend 4 That which hath a greater promise to doe good 5 That without which all dueties of charitie cannot be exercised toward sinners 6 That which bridleth outragious sinnes But such is the admonition of those who carry the name of the Church vz. the Eldership Ergo admonition longeth to them One Minor serueth right well for all these propositions Remonstrance That the venerable Eldership who carie the Church and beare it vp as Atlas with his shoulders Caelum humeris tor quet stellis ardentibus aptum Must giue this admonition in publike proclamation My answere hereunto is It is a sacrilegious robbery to giue and appropriate that vnto the Eldership which is proper to the ministers of the Gospel and such as exercise lawful authoritie in the Church it maketh as much for Presbiter Iohn or Iohns Eldershippe as any of your Elderships in the Church Besides I might trauerse the maior Propositions As for example Priuate reconciliation is commanded and yet no necessarie or ordinarie way to be publikely established in the Church And if admonition be necessary doeth it hereof follow it must be done and onely done by suche an Eldership The eighteenth Chapter Assertion SVspension from the Lords supper Demonstration or from an office in the Church must be by the Eldership The 1. Demonstration Whatsoeuer is enioyned as a duetie to bee done by euery Christian man if he leaue it vndone hee is to bee compelled by the gouernour of the Church Luke 14.17.23 But if a mans brother haue anie thing against him Matth. 5.24 he is to be compelled to leaue his gift Ergo Separation from the Lords supper is warranted by the worde This Demonstration is neither compound Remonstrance nor simple Syllogisme nor in any moode and figure nor proueth the Assertion any way for must it needes follow he must be suspended Ergo by the Eldership Then thus The people must haue Sacraments ministred and preaching ergo the Eldershippe must doe it If you say it is disposed according to any moode and
vnto for euer for it must be kept 1. Timoth. 6. cap. 14. But he wrote to direct him in the establishing and building of the Church ergo all Ministers are directed by the worde for euer and consequently neither to adde nor take from Because the Demonstrator will be at an end before he beginneth Remonstrance he frameth his argument à fine or à destinatis from the end To the Maior Out of this place you can not argue thus That which S. Paul respecteth the holy Ghost directeth c. Nay the contrary is more reasonable That which the holy Ghost respecteth S. Paul doth point vnto and appoint all Ministers to be respectiue therevnto S. Paules intendement runneth not before the holy Ghost S. Paul thinketh he hath the holy Ghost To the Minor But Saint Paul wrote for the establishing and building of the Church This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Cart before the horse It is preposterous to establish a Church first and to builde a Church after The meaning of the place is howe he should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 conuerse in the house of God which is the Church 4. cap. 12. v. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be a patterne to the faithfull in speech in conuersation in loue and therefore biddeth him keepe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the vndefiled commandement or the generall commandement one commandement for all ergo S. Paul there directeth all Ministers how they should publikely and priuately conuerse This your collection is vnnaturall to the text As for the whole syllogisme prosyllogisme if it were a perfect reason it maketh nothing against vs or it is Demonstratio in circulo a circular demonstration Al Ministers must be directed in particular because Timothie a particular Minister was directed in a generalitie vel è contrà Topic. 4. The fallacion is apparent qui dicit genus non dicit speciem nec qui dicit speciem dicit indiuiduum Paul gaue there generall direction ergo all particular direction whatsoeuer The conclusion followeth not of those premisses because it is defectiue in minori extremo for it ought thus to be concluded Da What ende Paule respected c. to that the holy Ghost directeth all Ministers for euer ti The ende that Paule respected was to direct Timothie to builde and establish the Church ergo si The holy Ghost directeth all Ministers for euer to builde and establish the Church But this conclusion is false because all are not to plant Churches for some build on others foundation and not the minor in that Paule taught Timothie at least to establish the Church therefore the maior must be vntrue It had bene more probable if it had bene thus said Directeth all such ministers as Timothie was who indeede was B. of Ephesus as all olde writers beside the subscription of the epistle doe testifie Therefore thus I retort with the like argument Da What ende Paul writing to Timothie respected Retortion to that the holy Ghost directeth all such Ministers as he was for euer ri Paul writing to him a Bishop respected as an ende the teaching of his dutie in ordinations of Ministers and in his iurisdiction ouer others as may appeare by the precepts of laying on of handes of examination approbation reiection censures receiuing accusations and for auoiding of partialitie and preiudice these two with the censures annexed being the preheminences that BB. claime in their seuerall charges ergo j. The holy Ghost directeth all such Ministers for euer as he was viz. BB. vnto ordinations of Ministers and iurisdiction The 2. Demonstration Euery house must be gouerned by the orders of the wise gouernour onely But the Church is an house Demonstration and God an housholder ergo This is no demonstration Remonstrance dare I or you say but a syllogisme in Darij and the conclusion to be granted for all orders which God hath indeede set downe To the Maior Euery house must so be gouerned c. id est for matters of importance and to doe nothing contrarie to his orders for in that gouernment of an housholder some matters of lesse weight are left to the good discretion of those of the familie neither is it otherwise possible to be It sufficeth if euery house be ordered by the principall orders of the lord or father of the familie or by the steward who is lex loquens Ioseph was a wise steward ouer all Pharaoh his house and so are we stewards Ephes 4. and yet a very wise and learned Minister may misse in direction of some particular matter that may come in experience in the Church To the Minor The Church is an house and God an housholder that is the Church like an house God likened to an housholder ergo In this connexion of the Maior to the Minor are foure termini the conclusion is naught and the argument followeth not of ineuitable necessitie from oeconomiques vnto politiques or least of all from politiques to the Hierarchie of the Church Retortion Rather è contrà Gods house must be gouerned by the orders of himself by the faithful seruants and stewards of his mysteries who haue interpretation of the Lord his word will ergo euery mans house may be ordered by the Maister of the housholde or steward in his place who hath skill of the L. his pleasure and his Masters will The 3. Demonstration That which teacheth euery good way Demonstration teacheth also how the Church must be gouerned but the worde of God teacheth euery good way ergo it teacheth howe the Church must be gouerned To the Maior This argument is drawen à Transcendente Good is Transcendent Remonstrance which is the Maior It derogateth nothing from the Maiestie and sufficiencie of the worde to teach in a generalitie and infallible certaintie of the substance although not in euery indiuiduall circumstance no arte no science no facultie consisteth of singulars or prouideth for euery casualtie much lesse for euery ceremoniall ordinance Sufficeth vnto vs that the Scripture is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inspired from God is profitable to doctrine c. That the man of God may be made perfect and euery Christian man may be lead into the right way of saluation without wandering ignorance or wanton curiositie To the Minor The Minor maketh for this exposition 2. Pro. 9. Tunc intelliges iustitiam ius quicquid rectumest omnem orbitam bonam thou shalt then vnderstand equitie and righteousnes and all right and euery good way which is requisite to the spirituall worship of God for else should all good sciences and artes and all good medicines which God hath created be also learned out of the scriptures Therefore this arrowe shotte out of their owne bowe into the aire vpright as a childes arrowe falleth into their owne eies Ba The worde of God teacheth euery good way ro But it teacheth not the Synodicall discipline Retortion and the mutabilitie thereof according to the varietie
of those whom God endueth with meane gifts who doe their best endeuor albeit they cannot aspire to an high eminencie or singularitie of learning for teaching preaching substantiallie and orderly as were to be wished in all The 5. Demonstration He that may bee admitted into the ministerie Demonstration must deuide the worde of God aright 2. Timothie 2.15 Onely hee that conuinceth the aduersarie can doe so Ergo To the Minor The Minor is ambiguous and false Remonstrance Onely hee c. for others also can deuide aright and giue Gods seruants spirituall foode with the competencie of those giftes although they cannot 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 stop the aduersarie and gainesaier in all things This one qualitie wil by a maine barre exclude most or all of our busiest and waiwardest ministers The 6. Demonstration He that may be admitted into the ministerie must haue a treasurie furnished with old and new things and able to bring it foorth Matth. 13.52 v. Demonstration Onely he that is able to teach is such ergo To the Maior Our Sauiour speaketh of a man that is taught not of the teacher Remonstrance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and therefore the Demonstrator is beside his purpose Here is nothing lesse meant then admission to the ministerie The Minor is as false as the Maior was The Demonstrat doth not onely but also allegorize as before for onely he that is able to teach c. You see he that is of abilitie to learne and to be taught is so readie furnished with olde and newe c. The 7. Demonstration He that can espie the enemie and forewarne must be admitted Ezech. 33.7 Demonstration None can espie but an able man to teach ergo The Maior is false being vniuersally taken This syllogisme would faine be in the third figure Remonstrance but it is in neuer a moode nor figure but quem torra pontus To the place of Ezechiel I haue made thee a watchman to the house of Israel thou shalt heare the worde at my mouth and admonish them Euery man endewed with meane giftes in or out of the ministerie may admonish though he that is a teacher may better admonish And one of the meanest can many times descry and forewarne of the enemies approching The 8. Demonstration He that leadeth his people and himselfe to Hell may not be admitted Demonstra he that is not able to teach is so ergo 15. Matth. 14. The Maior is a great waies about The Minor is false in it self Remonstrance and in allegation of the text If the blinde leade the blinde Matt. 15.14 v. both fall into the ditch It is too too peremptorie to make euery downefall into hell A man may fall and rise againe Septies in die cadit iustus What blinde guide taught you to expound 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into hell in foueam for the locall place of hell He that is not able to teach in any tollerable measure is a blind guide but God forbid he should leade Gods people downe to hell of necessitie But if you meane here as before teaching to be preaching and that euery one that is no preacher leadeth into hell The father master housholder Catechist and also many ministers can teach and instruct their charges in godlines who neuerthelesse are not able to make an exact sermon and doe not therefore leade the people in the way to hell The 9. Demonstration or Allegation Demonstra Aug. l. de pastor Remonstr Who preacheth not but holdeth his peace murdreth It is true in a metaphoricall sence in those who are called and haue the talent to discharge it as is required The 10. Allegation Demonstra Greg. 1. li. 33. ep Remonstra He that preacheth not is not sent and so begetteth no faith Take the worde preaching in a larger comprehension and it is equiualent to the worde teaching and so it may cary shewe of a truth but in that 33. epistle written to Venantius Chancellor of Italy there is no such thing The 11. Allegation or Demonstration In that S. Paul requireth a bishop should be wise Demonstra Hier. ad Oecum Remonstrance be barreth those who vnder name of simplicitie excuse the follie of Ministers Those who meane and deale plainely doe quote the place of the author whereby it may be easiest found but how shall we by this direction ad Oecumenium finde that epistle which was neuer written for any copie of S. Hierom that I can get or heare of The 12. Allegation or Demonstration We condemne all vnmeete ministers not endewed with giftes to feede a flocke Demonstra Confess Heluet. Remonstrance Neither doe we absolue them if they haue no giftes at all to doe good to their flocke You might take the other wordes with you the harmelesse simplicitie of some in the olde Church did more good then the delicate finenesse but proud learning of others fastuosiorem The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator There must be reading in the Church Demonstration ergo a reading ministerie Answere of the Demonstrator There must be breaking of bread and powring of water ergo one whose office must be to breake breade and powre water There are sixe things that God hateth Remonstrance with replie take heede you be not within the compasse of all as of some of them This obiection was made pag. 252. in the defense of the answere to the admonition But I am sure your answere is there Os quodmentitur occidit animam True it is you cannot vtterly condemne reading sith faith commeth by reading the Scriptures within booke as by rehearsing them without booke As the Lawe and Moses were read so the Gospell in the eares of the hearers If you had obiected for vs thus There may be reading ministers ergo a reading ministerie For a reading Minister is one that doeth a particular dutie in the Church and a reading ministerie is a part of his dutie in the Church The consequence doth holde Quod valet in vno coniugatorum valet in reliquis si sint re nomine coniugata As for the inferencie there must be an officer for euery particular action It is your owne absurditie not our collection As out of the 12. Rom. He that distributeth in simplicitie ergo there must be an officer of your Deaconship in the Church May you not as well gather thus he that sheweth mercie in cheerefulnes ergo a seuerall officer of shewing mercie in the Church The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Better to haue Readers then none at all Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator It is not better for then they would seeke preachers But why are the preachers turned out Where shall they finde for euery cure by any narrowe seeking Remonstrance with reply Those that be turned out are but fewe and fewer then deserue it preaching as they preach may not patronize schisme slaunder scandale and disobedience not euery one that
charge wherewith they are credited or Officials for the offices they beare are most Christian names else why doe themselues so often call their Tetrarches Church officers a name not founde in Scripture neither discipline in their sense nor classis nor prouincial or nationall Synode As for the pillar the Minor leaneth vpon to proue their offices and practise to be deriued from Antichrist it is weake and vnstable viz. All founded vpon the Canon lawe is grounded vpon a dunghill Some dunghill scholler made this Minor to diminish and detract from the authorized Canons of the Church vnder the odious name of the Popes lawe For the Canon lawe which is reteined with vs is nothing but the olde Canons of the Primitiue Church and such other approoued Iudicials in matters Ecclesiasticall as be neither contrarie to the prerogatiue royall nor to the lawes and statutes of the Realme and which had bene vsed before the making of that acte of Parliament 25. H. 8. are therefore since by diuerse actes in K. Ed. 6. daies and in her Maiesties honoured with the name of the kings Ecclesiastical lawes and the Ecclesiasticall lawes of this Realme and they are in like sorte vsed in the Ecclesiasticall Consistories of most of the reformed Churches in Germanie as they are here who doe as litle esteeme the Pope as we can doe Neither are some of those which were set downe by the Popes authoritie therefore vsed of vs as binding this Realme in respect of the ordeiner any more then Italy Fraunce or Spaine be said to acknowledge the authoritie of the Romane emperours ouer them for vsing the ciuill lawes For we doe therefore onely practise them because they concurre with the former statute enacting them and being set downe by good aduise are found equal and profitable Those who disdaine them in respect of the author doe shewe therein as witlesse curiositie as if they would vrge vs to abandon all printing because it was deuised first at Harlem by a Papist or ceasse to defende our selues with gunnes for that a Monke inuented them But if the matter retained displease them as not conuenient nor according to rules of equitie let all the wisest of them take all the seuerall cases propounded throughout that lawe and giue diuerse or cleane contrarie decisions to that which is there giuen and they shall thereby easily finde themselues either ridiculous absurde or vniust lawgiuers The most of them are such as haue happened may happen in Church gouernment If they can finde the decision of them in the worde of God directly we will then abandon all other Canons and onely followe theirs The Church may not be without lawes in externall gouernment and to referre all to the gouernours will were a steppe to all tyrannie and insolencie As for the slaunder to call Christian Magistrates or once to compare them to maisters of the stewes they being the Ecclesiasticall lawes of this Realme is a more filthie and beastly phrase of speech Aconitum spunia Cerberi then Cerberus the hound of hell could spewe But we are too wel acquainted with these fowle blasphemous mouthes it is but sutable to the opinion they cary of the supreme Christian Magistrates and of their lawes Ecclesiasticall or Common The 4. Demonstration They that being inferiors doe tyrannize ouer their superiors Demonstration ought not to rule the Church but such as they doe tyrannize ouer the ministers to whom they are inferiours by the Canon lawe ergo they ought not to rule the Church This is not the issue in question Remonstrance for we say not that they are to rule the Church but are ministers of iustice according to the ordinances of the Church The Maior is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet true so long as they doe tyrannize ouer their superiours they ought not to rule the Church To the Minor therefore They who execute their office with correspondence to their dutie and according to lawes doe not tyrannize neither are they in place of iustice inferiour but are inferiour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in respect of the dignitie of the office of the ministerie But this office of ministerie doth not alwaies worthie the person aboue euery calling though not so sacred else should euery ministers person be aboue any Lorde or the Prince himselfe that chiefly dealeth but in matters of this life Besides surrogatus sapit naturam surrogantis If then the bishop who doth appoint them be aboue an ordinarie minister then are they also In place of iustice a meane Gentleman is superiour to a Duke conuented and so is a poore Constable in matters of his office by reason of them who giue the authoritie and whose persons they beare But thus we turne it home againe vpon themselues They that being inferiours doe gouerne the superiours according to their owne will Retortion without any direction of lawes they doe proudly tyrannize and consequently neither are to rule the Church nor in the Church But your Lay elders being of inferiour calling as your selues confesse to your Pastors and Doctors and much more to the whole Congregation doe gouerne them euen to the displacing or censuring them according to their owne wils and discretions without all direction of lawes which is tyrannie and their platformes doe abrogate all lawes but of their owne making which are not yet framed and in deede experience teacheth that their Consistories will not willingly tie themselues to any set lawes in their gouernment which maketh their decrees concerning diuers persons where the matter neuerthelesse is the selfe same to be so diuers and contrarie ergo Your laie elders doe proudly tyrannize and so neither are to rule the Church nor in the Church The 5. Demonstration They who liue by the faults of men are not fit to rule the Church Demonstration But all Chancellors Officials Commissaries doe so Ergo To the Maior It is very false if it bee meant per accidens to liue by faults Remonstrance as here it must needs be for in this sort doe all iudges iudiciall officers and ministers hauing fees liue by the wrong that the one partie doth to the other So the clerkes of the crowne of gaole deliuerie and of peace doe liue by the pleas against traitors murderers felons and other malefactors c. and yet lawfull in the common weale why not the like in the Church Nemo militat proprijs stipendijs To the Minor O rash and temerarious iudgement What art thou that iudgest an other mans seruant you may remember Horace saying Mendax infamia terret Quem nisimendosum mendacem They do not liue but by honest fees though they grew by occasion of faults as the least part of them in deed doth if any doe and therefore the Minor very false and slaunderous The matters whereupon their fees doe rise are either beneficiall tending to the title and maintenance of the ministerie or testamentarie tending to the performance of the deads will or
Rabbyn of you all Alas the Iesuites desire no better match then to haue a Puritane come to reason with them they are so farre to seeke in the controuersies I am assured more sounde arguments may be drawen out of that Lawe against the Pope and Poperie then three of the best of our Puritanes can bring out of all their readings Gentiletus a Protestant lawyer hath confuted the Tridentine Council euen out of the Decrees of Gratian. The 8. Demonstration That which destroyeth the Church Demonstra cannot be good to rule But the Canon lawe destroyeth it for it crosseth euery faithfull Minister in discharge of his duetie Ergo. Hinc illae lachrymae Remonstrance Lex non est posita iustis there is no lawe but for lawlesse men If all the olde Canons and course of law were gone then you were safe ynough you and your Elders would be Popes in your owne Parishes And is in deede the Church destroyed when any of you be crossed in your maner of discharging your Ministerie The Church I perceiue with you hath many significations The 9. Demonstration That which hath bread more traiterous Papists in England Demonstrat then the Seminaries of Rhemes and Rome cannot be good but the Canon law c. Ergo. This is a seditious and franticke Paradoxe Remonstrance well you shall haue somewhat for the making your credite shal be in the next Demonstration none shall beleeue you Belike they were conuerted to Poperie by the studie of the Canon lawe euen as like as if a man woulde say that your discipline is able to conuert from Poperie to the Gospel The 10. Demonstration That which nourisheth the hope of Antichrist to come in againe Demonstrat cannot be good But the Canon lawe for it keepeth the cages of these vncleane birds as Archbishops Lord bishops Arches Cathedral Churches Ergo. This birde would sing in a Bridewell cage Remonstr if he be not caged in another maner of cage or deplumed rather for libelling against Iudgement seates and Colleges of the Prophets O shamelesse follie as if Poperie were come in it coulde not bring with it the whole Popes lawe though it were abrogated in the meane time The 11. Demonstration That which all the Churches haue cast off as vnfit Demonstrat cannot be good But all the Churches that haue forsaken the Pope haue cast it off Ergo. The Maior tendeth to Donatisme or Brownists Antichristianitie Remonstr To the Minor An instance is The reformed Churches of Germanie Denmarke and Sweden that retaine much of it and so our Church But they will denie ours perhaps to bee a Church reformed What follie were it where a case happeneth with a iust equall decision to determine the contrarie because hee was an ill man vnder whose authoritie it was first published Though Rich. 3. was an vsurping tyraunt his lawes were very good and are yet reteyned and so are the sounde iudgements that were giuen in times past by Papistes Iudges and badde men The 12. Demonstration We our selues mislike it as appeareth by a statute of Edwarde the 6. Demonstration We doe not mislike but abridge Remonstrance an abridgement or exception vnto part is not misliking of the whole By an abridgement no more was intended then to haue it perfectly knowen what was profitable to be reteined as not contrary to the prerogatiue Royall nor lawes of the land O golden Demonstrations of a leaden Demonstrator The fifteenth Chapter Assertion GOuernours of the Church may not meddle but in matters Ecclesiasticall onely as vocation abdication Demonstration in deciding of controuersies in doctrine and maners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience and censures of the Church This Assertion is laid out by him Remonstrance not so much to signifie what apperteineth to Church gouernours as what not apperteineth viz. ciuill causes which he fancieth that Bishops doe exercise and to claime as appertayning vnto their functions By abdication hee meaneth deposition of Church officers the worde signifieth properly a voluntarie putting away of an office but hee thinketh it is abdication when it is taken away against a mans will such a fault may be forgiuen to a poore smatterer in learning when he taketh it vp at a more learned mans hand per fidem implicitam and he only to be blamed that thus serued him on trust The French disciplines both and their practise together with the booke written in confirmation of that discipline do attribute to euery consistorie or Eldership authoritie and power to make lawes ecclesiasticall This part of power our men neuer reach at plainely in direct termes because it were likely to be enuious perhaps would proue eyther too hotte or to heauie vnto them And it is wisely me thinketh considered of them besides for when all other lawes for Church gouernment are once taken away then shall their power be more absolute if none in their steade be set downe but all left to their owne wils And seeing they haue left to themselues deciding of all controuersies in doctrine and manners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience there is still measure large ynough in their owne handes to supplie this want at the full for this one limme of authoritie will carry all causes though most ciuill in their nature and practise out of all Courtes in the land vnto their Elderships First the Chancerie that decideth matters of controuersie by conscience is clearely dammed vp and may goe picke paigles And are any other ciuill Courtes in better case no verely for can any controuersie be betwixt man and man but it appertaineth to conscience to giue the matter contended for vnto him to whō of right it is due You may not therefore maruaile hereafter if you chaunce to heare a man excommunicated by them among whom this discipline reigneth for refusing to cancell a band if they thinke it vnconscionable or denying to acquitte a debte though it were with the creditors vndoing This forsooth is no ciuill cause or matter at the cōmon law though Littleton would depose twētie times that it were By vocation I thinke they meane the first nomination of a man vnto the people for an ecclesiasticall office They leaue out election because they would seeme more popular then the French discipline that giueth to the Eldershippe both vocation and election but by that time the cardes bee dealt out you shall see all comes to one passe for whom they nominate he is thereby chosen if the people do not gainesay it and if they all doe there must also a cause be both alleadged and allowed by the Eldershippe before he can be reiected They mention not here ordination by imposition of hands vpō the elected by the Eldershippe but we see by other places that they haue an eye vnto it not to loose it I will aske therefore all the learned of that side where by any pregnant place they finde ordination of Ministers of the worde with imposition of
handes or the censures of the Church inflicted in or since the Apostles time by or vnder the authoritie of those that themselues are no ministers but in all other respectes are meere lay men and but annuall or biennall officers in the Church If they cannot shewe it let them for euer hereafter holde their peace and confesse it to bee in trueth a deuise of mans braine which they woulde seeme so much to detest in Church gouernment The 1. Demonstration That which our Sauiour Christ refused ruling and gouerning the Church Demonstration and teaching the Church that is not lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person to doe but Christ refused to diuide the inheritance Luk. 12.14 Ergo Ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill matters The syllogisme is to be concluded newe againe Remonstrance here are foure termini foure termes in three quarters of a yeere One conclusion is Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill causes another should be Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not diuide lande or inheritance Amphor a caepit institui currente rota sic vrceus exit To the Maior The Maior is to be denied all that our Sauiour refused euery of vs may not refuse he because he came to be a mediatour betweene God and man would not become a common diuider and iudge of euery secular cause of title of land who made me c. neither my heauenly father sent me to that end neither haue I commission from thy brother to sende thee into the moietie of the possession Besides if he had intermedled in the matters of the common weale it would haue strengthened the conceipte that he sought an earthly kingdome and to dispossesse the Romanes To reason from Christes refusal is the refuse of all good reason à non facto ad ius Christ woulde not or did not answere Pilate in iudgement must we therefore conclude Ergo at the tribunall of a Iudge it is at our discretion to answere or not to speake Christ did not condemne the woman taken in the acte of adulterie shall not therefore officers Ecclesiasticall condemne any such sinner To the Minor Christ refused to diuide the inheritance it was because hee woulde not vse the authoritie that hee had as Lorde of Heauen and earth when he came as a seruant not because either a Christian magistrate or minister shoulde after his example lay aside all authoritie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 who hath appointed me emplieth rather that if he had bene appointed by both the parties he might haue done it and so may any minister arbitrate and compounde a controuersie ciuill that is committed vnto him If any Christians may be iudges of ciuill matters 1. Cor. 6. why may not some ministers in some ciuill matters If then hee may whome the Church appointeth nay whome two priuate men consent vpon though he be a person ecclesiasticall may not the Christian Soueraigne Prince much more commit a ciuill cause vnto them and they lawfully deale in it Or if it will be saide they may not so deale in causes ciuill delegated vnto them is then the sinne hereof in him who delegateth or who is delegated or in both But I neede not wade further into this matter I haue spoken something to it afore More authoritie ciuill then is delegated vnto them no Byshop hath may haue or doeth claime in this Realme and therefore except they will impugne this point their labour is superfluous By the way I will propounde this vnto them If all ciuill rule and authoritie bee denied to persons Ecclesiasticall as in it selfe impious howe may they rule their wiues children and housholde which is oeconomicall power and therefore ciuill as ciuill is opposite to ecclesiasticall Likewise howe may they cast their accompts receiue their rentes c. Nay when they are rubbed with their laye Elders and can no where finde them then they say they are not lay but Ecclesiasticall persons because they haue imposition of handes If they bee therefore so to bee accompted Countrey poyson then howe may they lawfully euen in the yeere of their Eldership be also ciuill magistrates as Sheriffes Iustices of peace maisters of their companies counsellours Syndicks and what not though most ciuill as dayly experience teacheth where that discipline is in vre Belike their assertions and rules are made onely against byshoppes not against themselues The 2. Demonstration That which was forbidden to the Apostles Demonstration is vnlawful for ecclesiastical officers but such dominiō was forbiddē Luk. 22.28 which is to rule ciuilly Ergo. That which was forbidden c. is vnlawfull Remonstrance But ambition tyranny contention for absolute seigneurial and ciuil authoritie was forbidden not a modest either ciuill or ecclesiastical superiority ergo to be ambitious contentious c. is vnlawfull In that here he applieth that of Luke to ciuill rule hee cleareth our Bishoppes from the daunger of it in exercising anie authoritie Ecclesiasticall This Argument is answered before The 3. Demonstration If necessarie dueties are to bee left rather then our duetie in the Church Demonstration then may not a Church-officer deale in ciuill iurisdiction but the former is true for a man may not burie his father Luc. 6.59 Ergo I denie the sequele of the Antecedent Remonstrance albeit some corporall or bodily offices which duetie biddeth to be done may vpon Christes commaundement be left vndone yet this is no barre to ministers and preachers of the Gospel to deale in any necessarie ciuill cause And how is it proued that no ciuill iurisdiction may stand with doing of his Church duetie There is none of themselues but they can be content to be executors to a wealthy widow or such like being no more afraid of it then they are to burie them To the Assumption Your quotation should be the 9. of Luke the meaning of which place is All Christians must lay aside all impedimentes and hinderaunces that may drawe them from comming to Christ but some ciuill authoritie amongst Christians is rather a furtherance What consequence cal ye this A man may not bury his own father rather then not follow Christ or if Christ otherwise encharge him Ergo a minister that liueth in a Christian common wealth may not lawfully haue a branch of commission from the prince for ciuil iurisdiction The 4. Demonstration If he that hath an office must attend on his office Demonstration then may hee not intermeddle with another office But the first is true Rom. 12.7 Ergo not with ciuill iurisdiction He may not intermeddle without lawfull calling or vocation Remonstrance yet the connexion hath no sequele Doe you not see some that haue two offices looke neere inough to both This will roaue at temporall men as well as at ecclesiasticall S. Paul disputeth of diligence in our function not of diuersitie of functions which diuerse functions may concurre in one See the answere to the first thus I retort against your selues He that
Demonstration it is either in respect of his excellencie aboue other men or the place whereof he is aboue other places But neither of these haue euer bene or hereafter can be ergo You might haue remembred the old rule Remonstrance that from insufficient enumeration of the parts or of the causes the argument doth not hold or this fallacie is of the consequent as saieth Aristotle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when you mistake the cause The lawfulnesse of his office is in regard of his superioritie grounded on the word of God and in respect of his authoritie wherewith he is put in trust by the prince and Parliament But I answere thus If the office of the seignorie be lawfull it is either in respect of the excellencie of the men or of the most illustrious and celebrated place not the first for an Artisan elder is as good and substantiall an elder as any Earle or honourable man and by their owne platforme he must sit cheeke by ioll by the noblest Erle or counseller of the land Neither the second for no place is better or worse vnto them who seeke for equalitie Non locus virum sed vir locum honestat The place giueth not credite to the man but the man to the place ergo the seignorie is not lawfull in respect of the man or place and consequently hath none authoritie or gouernment The 1. Allegation Caluin lib. 4. Institut cap. 11. sect 7. Demonstration Beza in the booke of diuorcements speaketh against iurisdiction of bishops and others substitute officers If you alleage new writers one for one Remonstrance we haue an Oliuer for a Rowland if you alleage two wee can produce twise so many Bullinger and Musculus Hemingius Gualter and Zanchus c. But our meaning is not to muster authorities or recite the names of authors Pauperis est numer are pecus Goe rather to the things then names Caluins wordes are against the papists Iurisdictionem suam spiritualem iactant Romanenses Hee alloweth in his institutions Patriarkes Archbishops and bishops in the primitiue Church Shew any impietie in the offices of ours more then in those Beza speaketh against their dealings in those causes that know more in such causes any one of them then 20. of his Assistants in Eldership but if you alleage the onely fathers and begetters of presbyteries for them we will set Ridley and Iewell for bishops as learned as these in all respects and as godly The 2. Allegation Peter Martyr vpon the 13. to the Romanes Demonstration speaketh agaynst ciuill Iurisdiction in Bishops and by the same reason condemneth it in their substitutes Peter Martyr speaketh not against any iurisdiction Remonstrance which is a furtherance but popish iurisdiction which is a hinderance to the Gospell But whatsoeuer Peter Martyr saith we say this to you Bishops in respect they are bishops in England haue no ciuill iurisdiction for the distinction of ciuill and ecclesiasticall matters is more priciselie and vpon greater penalties here retained then else-where in all Christendome If it bee said some matters they handle bee ciuill that are called ecclesiasticall wee aske whether oeconomicall matters bee not a part of ciuill wherein they are as husbandly nay niggardly as any and further demaund a rule out of Gods word of them that vrge this as a sinne whereby to know a specificall difference betweene ciuill and Ecclesiasticall causes They cannot say because some of those which Ecclesiasticall courtes here handle bee accounted else-where ciuill therefore they may not be here Ecclesiasticall for of the contrary some matters here mere ciuill are else-where holden Ecclesiasticall As for example in Geneua and Scotland they inflict censures on those which for ciuill enormious crimes the magistrat hath punished or pardoned as felons manslears such like and all their presbyteries euen that among the Englishmen at Middleborough vse to deale with qualifiyng of forfeitures of bonds and accounts betweene hard masters and their prentises and other such Chancerie matters much more therefore those may iustly be accounted ecclesiastical which the law ciuill magistrate do put ouer to ecclesiastical mē better thē those which being in truth mere ciuil are intruded vpō the presbyteries Causes beneficial viz. for titles and maintenance of Ministers causes matrimonial diffamatorie with breach of charitie where none action lieth in ciuill Courts punishment of sinnes not punishable by the ciuil Magistrate and of reparations of churches churchyards which are all the heads of matters that bishops may hādle sauing testamentarie you wil I hope allow to be Ecclesiastical As for testamentary causes euen at the common law of this land they haue bene alwaies made Ecclesiasticall both because that lawe hath litle direction in those causes but such as is borrowed from the ciuill and Ecclesiastical lawes and for that mens last wils at least were wont do conteine sundrie demises for Churches orphanes poore captiues and such like good vses whereof the Church had the fourth part and wherein Bishops are intended to be most carefull to minister right indifferently to all for performance of the deads will Any iurisdiction ciuill which Bishops or some Ecclesiasticall persons haue is not claimed by them as due to their functions but imposed by the Prince as vpon subiects seruiceable for the Realme and for a credite to their places as Counseller Ambassador Iustice of the Peace c. For seeing they are subiects freemen and citizens of the Common-wealth besides their ministerie of the Church I would knowe whether they owe not this dutie being imposed on them vnto the Common-wealth and their Prince But we shall not I trust neede to perswade much with these men for they are not so squemish of ciuill honor and function as they would then seeme whiles their malignant eies are onely fastened vpon Bishops For where they haue sway neither prince nor Magistrate shall proclaime feast or fast treate of league peace or warre with any Prince nor make any ordinance without their aduise * The example of the reuerend learned man they will haue Deputies of the Churches in Parliament when they haue shut out Bishops and they thrust their Elders and Ministers vpon Kings to sitte with their other Counsellors as was not long since practised Is any matter most ciuil euen almost of least moment determined at Geneua without Beza insomuch as when troubles increase he omitteth his readings and preachings sundry times Is he not of the counsell of 60. in that state was not Villiers Secretarie of estate to the Prince of Orenge and further if we may beleeue the Chaos de Politia ciuili ecclesiastica Lib. 3. which Law Cha. was so earnest to haue printed at Leyden ministers and persons Ecclesiasticall in that they are citizens may nay in respect they are wise learned ought to be of counsell of Princes in affaires ciuill of the Common-wealth and to giue especiall direction euen in setting vp and deposing of Princes