3. 'T is further complain'd Nor Popery Reflec 〈◊〉 27. that some of us speak too much in favour of Popery saying they had rather be Papists then Phanaticks c. these though I have no mind to defend yet 't is evident they intend onely either thus to Droll with Phanatieks oâ— to shew an implacable aversness to Phanaticism which they may suppose they can hardly do in a higher Form of Speech then that which prefers Pâ—pery it self before it Though I think the excellent Dr. is not yet answered who hath proved Popery to be founded in the grossest sort of Phanaticism However Comparison's especiaily where the terms are so opposite must needs be offensive and odious yet our Brethren ought to consider that such supposed rash expressions reflect nothing upon the Church of England which as it owneth not such extravagancy in expression so it self is owned by them that use them as the best Churâ—h in the World But to my Brethren I make bold to say that I know no reason they have to prefer Popery bâ—yond some sort of Nâ—n-conformity I am sure 't is neither necessary nor seasonable The Papists may know to use your kindness beyond your intention and you find the Non-conformists are scandaliz'd at our very Church for your sake and puhlickly plead it against us already And you cannot but remember the late horrid consequences that the groundless suspition that our Clergy was Popishly affected hath had upon us both in Church and State Yea give me leave to say soberly that some atleast of our Non-comformists I hope are not worse then Papists in their Principles about civil Government and I hope too their other principles of Religion and their practises also are nearer to us then the Papists Neither need we look on Non-conformity all things considered as a more formidable Adversary In my weak opinion all that are not for Popery have reason to unite against it But whatever weakness Non-Conformists are guilty of in thinking otherwise it is a truth that there is no Bulwork so impregnable against Popery as the Constitution of the Church of England And none can read without some astonishment the incomparable Zeal of the Convocation in 1640 to secure our Church both from Popery and Socinianisme Lastly let me conjure you not Continue Loyalty to be guilty of the least whisper against the Government of his Sacred Majesty but to do your duties without murmuring You have hitherto had the honour of being styled the Loyal Clergy 'T is our true glory that our doctrine establisheth obedience to Princes upon the best Principles in the World Why should it be said that the Non-conformists are now the Royalists as an ingenuous Person J. H. intimates Though I must have leave to remember As it is by J. H. him that herein as well as in some other things he seems to take too much liberty to his phansie If the rest of his Brethren will stand to his Notion of the power of Conscience and the power of the Magistrate touching it I should desire to put it to no other issue whether their Principle or ours be the most Loyal He saith that uâ—lâ—ss the matter His first Principles considered of the Princes command bâ— antecedently necâ—ssary in the judgment of the Subject it being commanded in Scripture or required by the light of Nature for the common good the Conscience â—f the Subjâ—ct is not obliged to obâ—y that command Not bâ—ing here aware that obediâ—nce to man in things we judgâ— indifferent is both commandeâ— by Gâ—d in Scripture and required As he saâ—th him self p. 74. also by God in the Law of Nature for the common good i. eâ— for the security of the publick Peace and Gods own Vicegerency upon the Earth God sâ—ith particularly Submit your selves to every Ordinancâ— of man for the Lords sake that iâ— out of Conscience to God Obeâ— them that hâ—ve-Rulâ— over you give unto Caesar the thiâ—gs that are Caesars You must needs be subject â—ot onely for wealth but Conscience â—ake These are exprâ—ssed absoâ—lutely but where do you find his condition we need obey and â—ubmit onely for wrâ—th not out â—f Conscieâ—ce if the thing comâ—anded be not otherways necesâ—ary or but indifferent in it self When Man commands what God â—orbids 't is reason we obey God â—hough with disobedience to Man but when we may obey Man and not disobey God we â—ust do it in obedience to God â—hat is out of Conscience The difference betwixt us is â—lainly this We say the Coâ—sciâ—nce becomes obliged to obâ—y â—ur Prince by virtue of Gods â—ommand that we should obey â—im You seem to say that Conscience becomes obliged â—rom the matter or thing commanded which quite destroyeth all obligation of Consciencâ— to obey our Prince For you say when a thing is commanded by God or we think it tends to the publick good then onely Conscience is obliged to obey ouâ— Prince But this Obligation iâ— onely from the necessity of the thing commanded and becausâ— you approve it to be a duty before and consequently in obedience to your own Reason anâ— Judgment and and not at alâ— out â—f Conscience of the command or in obedience to the King for you were in youâ— Logâ—ck equally obliged to do it whether Man had commandeâ— you or not But in all other Cases you need obey onely for wraths sake that is no further thâ—n you are forced and therefore when you â—re got above fear you will not or need not regard Authority This Principle will hardly prâ—ve â—he Non-Conformâ—sts the onely Loyalists But to make the matter a litâ—le plainer lâ—t us consider what â—an oblige the Conscience but God and the notice of his Will Those things which are indiffeâ—ent in themselves before as Bread and Wine are therefore made the necessary Elements of the Lords Supper by Gods command â—nd ought therefore to be used â—n Conscience to God But if man â—ommand any thing there are â—wo thing considerable the â—atter or things commanded and â—he Authority or command it self â—f the thing commanded be â—uch as God hath commanded â—efore we are bound in Consciâ—nce to observe it two wayes from the necessity of the matter and from the Authority â—f the command which are both from God for he that hath said before Do this hath also said Obeâ— your Governours But if the thing commandeâ— by man were not commandeâ— by God before and be not forbidden any way by him though the first way of obligation frâ—m the matter fails yet the seconâ— holds and obligation from God to obey our Gâ—vernours iâ— still upâ—n Conscience from thâ— notâ—ce of Gods will in that Case Besidâ—s as was before observed in all â—uch indiffâ—rent things Goâ— requires obedience to our Governours not onely by his positivâ— Laws in Scripture as if such obedience were indifferent beforâ— he required it but also by thâ— Laws of Nature for the preservation of Government and the â—ublick good Consider well that
HUMBLE ADVICE TO THE CONFORMING AND NON-CONFORMING MINISTERS AND PEOPLE How to behave themselves under the present Liberty By the AUTHOR of Toleration not to be abus'd LONDON Printed for James Collins at the Kings Arms in Ludgate-street 1673. ADVICE TO THE CONFORMISTS and Non-Conformists SOme that think I have sufficiently discovered both the sin and the danger of the present Separation desire I would further consider what may be seasonable to offer by way of remedy but when the foundations are out of course what can I say or do Our Church now suffers as the Church of Corinth did by Schism and prophaneness and we have noted that our Divisions and Separations are the cause of General the first which as I have shewn in another place can no way be fully removed but by our reunion in the publick Temple Worship as our prophaneness the other great mischief and disease of the time by a speedy and hearty and general reformation of life There is a comfort attending good endeavours even when there is but little hope of success wherefore if it be not a presumption to follow the example of one otherwise minded I shall venture to produce my direction and what I humbly conceive to be the present duty both of the Conformists and Non-Conformists in order to the securing the Church from total shipwreck in the present storm adding my petition also that both would lay it to heart It is a time of liberty and men are very apt to do what seemeth right in their own eyes and I could even wish that they would do so in earnest if they would first wipe off the dust of prejudice and passion For I doubt not but we are generally convinced by the Gospel which we all profess that it is indeed our duty and interest too to love one another yea to forbear and yield to one another yea to deny our selves in the little satisfaction of having our own wills and our own ways in small and indâ—fferent things for the publick good and to follow peace and holiness with a conscience void of offence towards God and all men But that I may be a little more More parcular particular I cannot believe that we indeed differ about the existence of Heaven and Hell or in our notions of true Godliness as some in their heats have intimated or that our wisest Adversaries think whatever they say that the Ecclesiastical Powers and Courts are meerly mercenary or do really and intentionally encourage Vice or discountenance solid and true picty yet my hearty and humble request to them in the first place is that they would consider 1. What the cause of their present Contempt may be and whether something be not too justly imputable to our selves which ought not to be carefully searcht and reform'd before it be too late Methinks 't is adviceable now you have so little to do with Schism that you so turn the edge of your power against prophanness as it may appear you are as heartily against this as that and that none may think any longer they have cause to leave us as enemies to God and godliness and good men I have reason to affirm that zeal was never guilty of a grosser slander then by saying that the present Clergy of the Church of England is generally ignorant The Clergy idle prophane and opposers of godliness under which guilt I heartily pray that none may die impenitent Sure if this zeal had any ground or love it would be more Regular and follow Mr. Baxter's good advice and by proper complaint and proof endeavour at least our Reformation or Ejection But 't is too too uncharitable and groundless I am confident it is nearer to truth to say that this Church hath not been blessed with a more Able regular and pâ—ous Clergy these hundred years and then I might say a thousand then at present which I mention not to flatter but to encourage my brethren to perseverance and continuance in Well-doing under all such haâ—d Speeches of ignorance and malice against them Yet it cannot be denied that Too many faulty the few ignorant and scandalous Ministers found here and there amongst us are too many and untill the power of the Bishops both as to the Admission and ejection of Ministers be more enlarged and better Countenanâ—'d by Law we may wish a through amendment in this particular till our hearts ake yet these slanderers might know that the Church is purged of some such notorious Scandalous persons daily where the power of the Church can do it and where it cannot we should pity and not clamcur Would the Patrons be pleased to Patrons consider their great trust a little better they might lay a foundation of better hopes for the fuâ—ure and O that the Lord of the Harvest would put it into all their hearts not onely to dispose of their gifts freely but wisely and first to take advice with able unconcerned persons before they present their Clerks to the Bishâ—p that there might be no temptation upon him to admit the unworthy for fear of a Quare impedit But my brethren I mean you who are not ashamed to be called Conformists may not conscience of our duty supply all the real or supposed defects in the Law why should any of our lâ—ves be a shame to the best profession why should Omission male-Administration of our Office cause the Philistims to triumph or blaspheme that holy Name by which we are called both as Christians and Ministers Do our Enemies strike us in Malice and is it not in our power to turn it to our benefit Let the Dagger that is intended to stab open our Impostume and let out our Corruption 1. Consider your Calling and Do your whole Office know that both God and man and the Souls of your People and the credit of Religion and and the present Security of the Church of God expects your diligence and faithfulness in the Duties of it and it is but râ—cason your Enemies being Judges One that is no great Friend saith of us They sâ—ould consider that Reflect on Toleration not to â—e abused â—3 the Declaration requires of them exact Câ—nsormity and indeed it is but reasonable saith he that those who will Conform should be exact in the doing of it Let not the abuse of Liberty in others wear out the Sence or abate the performance of your Office for you know you are obliged both to be Sincere and Intire wanting nothing either of Inward or Outward Worship required at your hands Thus you will fulfil your Ministry indeed and doubt not but Duty will ever answer it self to God and Man when little Arts and Devices for Sinister ends run into the dark to hide themselves 2. Why should it be said that Preach better the Non-Conformists do out preach us Have they better Parts or more Learning It cannot be said Hath Use procured them a better Habâ—t or Knack of Preaching as they call
famous Case of the Recabites They â—bstained from Wine in obedience â—o their Fathers command after â—e was dead and all fear of his â—rath was gone Now what â—ould move or oblige them but Conscience Conscience I say â—ot that the matter was otherwise commanded by God or was for the publick good but â—n honour to their dead Parent which God commanâ—ed Thereâ—ore we find God approves accepts and rewards it Which vâ—ry thing proves it was ultimately and really an obedience to Gods own Will for God approves accepts and rewards nothing elsé But the foresaid Author pursues J. H. His second Principle his discourse to a Principle â—hat seems to me of more dangerous consequences to Government P. 112 c. That hâ—mane Powers may not lawfully cemmand or inforce any thinâ— against the Conscieâ—ces or perswasions of the Consciences of thâ— Subject even in civil concernâ— And for this instance he is venturous to say that a Tax may bâ— P. 118. laid upon the People yet if anâ— one resuses to pay it as one oâ— the Fifth Monarchy he observes may possibly in point of Conscience do though distress may bâ— taken for the publick good yet thâ— person may not lawfully be punished for not paying it Anâ— thus his matter runs smoothly but if we may have leave to make choice of an Instance â— think he will desire no furtheâ— answer in this particular E. G. The Law of God is the Rule of Conscience This Law is Negative as well as Affirmative and binds the Conscience equally in both respects So far we are agreed Nâ—w admit a man of the Fifth Monarchy or a number of such men shall think they are bound in Conscience by virtue of some plain Text in the Revelations to destroy the Wicked to set up the Government of Jesus Christ in his Saints and from that of the Psalmist in order to this great work to bind the Kings of the Earth in Chains and our Nobles in Fetters of Iron Seriously say what think you of this Case may not the Sword of the Magistrate be made a terrour to such evil Doers may not those bloody Consciences be restrained by commands and menaces may not these bloody hands be cut off and punished may not Conscientious Murther be revenged no little Artifices of mans wit no cunning Subterfugs of debaucheâ— Consciences can possibly race out that indeleble Law of Nature and the God of Nature he that shedeth mans blood by man shall his blood be shed And if the like colour from Conscience be put upon Theft Adultery or any of the sins against our Neighbour they may easily receive a like Answer You will say perhaps these are evil by virtue of Gods command before mans Law was made true so also 't is a good which God requires before the Tax be made that we should give to every one his due Tribute to whom Tribute Custom to whom Custom And I am apt to think that what is given to King Charles by our selves in Parliament is as due to him as what was exacted by Caesars command was to Caesar I am afrâ—id I shall trouble that Ingenious Authâ—r otherwise I should mind him that by such Principles the Non-Conformists are not likâ—ly to carry it in point of Loyalty or tendency to Publick Good which draw both Râ—ligion and Justice and prâ—pâ—rly it self under such Authority of private Conscience as unhâ—ngâ—th Government And to say no worse leave all those precious things in an unestablished condition But I spare them for he many times seems to explain himself a great deal better then his Principle will bear him out And sometimes especially towards the latter end of his Book when he had better considered the Consequences of it he more then seems to suspect it and resolves all into the Prudence of the Governour no doubt finding his distinction of the Power of restraint and coustraint would not serve him in all emergencies Let him consider the Law of God obligeth us to do as well as to omit Accordingly Conscience ruled by its apprehensions of that Law obligeth us to both Or whether it do so or no it may be perswaded it doth and that 's all one And though Conscience err yet it is to us as God and by obeying it we obey God and it is above all humane Authority Therefore the Magistrate hath no power to enforce me not to do my apprehended duty or to punish me if I do it though it be to murther the innocent as in the Case before He abhors the consequence but whose are the premises After all this and supposing some of us to be really guilty either of ignorance scandal idleness or imprudence in the aforesaid particulars I cannot be so fond as to believe that this is the chief cause of the present Separation whatever is pretended my Reason is because it hath hitherto so happened as a demonstration to the contrary that where the Dissenters themselves acknowledge their Parish Ministers freest from snch exceptions and all other there is generally the greatest cause to bewail Separation Consequently I have no great No hopes yet do your duties encouragement without a miracle to beleive that if you should reform every thing that is really amiss in you or that they complain of while you are true to the duties of your places the Separation will much abate upon it However you have other sufficient Motives to quicken you other Persons to account with Therefore sâ—t the fear of God and the good of the Church before you and remove all appearances of evil from your selves and all occasions of evil speaking from the Dissenters And let nothing discourage you in your Studies and cares to amend what â—s amiss to persevere in well doing to fulfil your Ministry and to receive your Crown And if notwithstanding your uttermost endeavours to prevent it they will be offended and forsake your Churches bear it as your Cross Pray sor your Enemies with the patience of Christians and the courage of the men of God And however they treat you or the Church cease not to pity and pray for them as you are taught Pray for them though your Enemies Though they slander you and persecute you and for nothing else but the truth's sake as they Apostle That it may please thee to forgive our Enemies Persecutors and Slanderers and turn their Hearts Pray for them as Sheep that are gone astray that it may please thee to bring into the way of truth such as have erred and are deceived We beseech thee to hear as good Lord. Now my Brethren I humbly and earnestly beseech you to pardon my freedome with you Onely take it by the right handle and I know you cannot take it amiss Seeing 't is said I have dealt smartly with our Adversaries if I should not deal plainly with you I should neither follow my Example nor answer my Reprover But I have a word or two also ad populum for our Conforming
People that yet â—ontinue in one Parochial Communion Advice to our Conforming People WIll you also go away you Hold fast know we have the words of eternal life and whether can you go to mend your selves Consider the danger of breaking the Union and dissolving the constitution of our Parish Churches and hold fast the profession of your Faith without wavering nor forsaking the assembling your selves together as the manner of some is Your continuing hitherto with us declares you are satisfied with our Communion And for your Parish Ministers if they are such as they should be fail not to encourage them in the day of their distress as Children should do to their Parents If they are faulty endeavour in your places to reform or remove them if incorrigible that the Church may be no longer scandalized by them but be very tender of Separating from them Be your Ministers never so obnoxious your Separation is noâ— legal Remedy either for the Church or you nor do our Laws allow it Yea you have not a word from the old Non-Conformists or Presbyterians to warrant your going to separatâ— Congregations of another constitution though indeed they did allow of going to Neighbour Parishes where the Minister was very ignorant or wicked But if the Minister be pious and diligent though of very ordinary and mean gifts they do by no means allow an Ordinary and usual with drawing from his Ministry to hear those that are more able Are the People that separate of better Lives then you the fault is not in the Ministry by which they were also generally converted but in your selves I speak this to your shame It is left to you to recover the honour of of that means which they disparage by forsaking and you by prophaning Yet it is sufficiently observable that the Separation it self is blemish't with its peculiar Vices which you ought by oppositions to avoid Are they proud censorious Vices of the Separation jealous and rash in Judgement be ye humble candid and charitahle Are they partial and trousome to the Church and Neighbourhood be ye Catholick and as much as in you lies live peaceably with them and all men Are they guilty of Schism by breach of unity take you heed of being so by breach of Charity And by their new and strange devices to deride study how you may unite And seeing they will forsake you study you to kâ—ep closer one to another Yet what is or seems to be Their good imitate good and commendable in them if there be any virtue if there be any praâ—se among them think on these things and disdain not to be taught by your Adversaries Are they Zealous in their way do they love and adhere to and provide one for another are they strict and temperate Are they free from Vanity Ribaldry Riot and Blasphemy Are they Admirers of their Teachers Punctual and greedy observers of the times of their worship c. Be you so too and much more and covet earnestly the best gifts Thus labouring to redeem the Name and Reputation of the Church of England from the charge of a vain and debauch't Conversation under so excellent a Profession A PETITION AND ADVICE TO THE NON-CONFORMISTS 1. TO their Preachers if Preachers they would design to hear me with patience and charity and meekness of wisdom and not count me an Enemy who would onely tell them the truth in love Many of you are well known to me I should wrong you not to acknowledg you to be men of Parts and worth and such as are qualified to serve the Church in a more then ordinary manner and I know not that I ever said any thing when warmest in Argument undeserving that Charity of J. H. concering me who saith he upon Conviction will perhaps as soon as any be ready to thank God with us if a Door so effectual be opened that we may without offence and without Schism joyn our strength in mutual love and concord for the carrying on the great work of mans Salvation through the Nation Yet I have said so much against you that you will not easily believe I would flatter you 'T is enough if you can bear with me that I am not yet convinced but that the course you have taken is sinful and of dangerous consequence from which very perswasion onely I tooâ— all that heat that some complaiâ— of I am yet offended at your Seâ—paration but especially that yoâ— gather your Assemblâ—es at thâ— same time with the Temple-Worâ—ship and in such Places tooâ— where no exception lies againsâ— the Parish-Ministers Beyond all colour or pretence of Reason and all Allowance even of those that have hitherto Written in your defence And methinks suffer my plainness if there be indeed any Wisdom and Meekness in you if any love to to us if any care to the Church if any real desire to avoid the Crime and the charge of Schism it should be difficult to perswade you to alter your practice in that one particular You do not think the People Keep your Meetings at other tâ—mes would be the worse for our Felowship You do not bid Defiaâ—ce to it your selves or declare against the Parish-Constitution of our Churches or for a Total Separation If any thing of this nature be said of you you are offended Then think on 't seriously why you should generally so order your Meetings as that your Hearers are necessitated to leave our Assemblies If I may not deserve to be heard Whom will ye hearken to in this Point Shall we appeal Follow your Friends advice to those that would defend you and Write against me I am content follow but their Advice and Examples in this particular and you will oblige me never to trouble you more in this Matter Hear what the Authour of Sacrilegious P. 90. 91 c. Dâ—ssention c. saith If you lâ—ve where the Conformable Minister is faithful truly endeavouring the Salvation of his Flock I charge you in the â—ame of Christ do not onely if possible as much as in you lieth live in love familiarity peace with him but also do all that you can to maintain his honour and promote his work For all your Non-Conformity you are no better then he if you be not more charitable then he If you set your selves in a dividing way secretly to rejoyce at his disparagement and to draw as many from him as you can you are but destroyers of the Church of God Call your selves what you will I will call you destroyers if you are dividers Yea much that else would be your duty must be omitted to avoid Division The work of God the good of Souls the defense of the Protestant Religion against Papists require your utmost conjured strength And you are Betrayers of all these if you are Dividers Therefore go as often as you can to his Congregation and hold communion personally with him and lead the People with you Do not say now
authority viz. that where the Word of God is truly preach'd and the Sacraments rightly administred there is a true Church Mr. Baxter hath room enough for his large Charity to think they are all true Churches though Schismatical That is though they are made up of Sheep gone astray from their proper Folds to which they yet owe themselves and ought to return A Dialogue BETWIXT THE INDEPENDENT AND PRESBYTERIAN About gathering of CHURCHES Taken out of a Book called the Grand Debate and Papers therein Printed as they were given in to the Committy of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines with the Commissioners of Scotland for Acommodation 1644. Printed in 1648. LONDON Printed for James Collins at the Kings Arms in Ludgate-street 1673. TO THE Reader Good Reader PErhaps thou mayest censure me too severe with my Answerers in expposing this old difference to a publick review but why then did they give me so great an advantage and provoke me to take it in my own defense Why did they Scandalize the World and many of their own Friends too who are yet living Witnesses of that so notorious a contest by mincing the matter seeming shy to acknowledge that the then Presbyterians were against gathering new Churches out of the Parochial To say nothing of their opinion of Toleration For what Toleration as to our purpose could they that were Presbyterians be thought â—â— indulge who so stifly refused to allow it to their Independent Brethren particularly in the very point of gathering Churches In this following Dialogue you have no feigned disguise on either side but both speaking over again their own Sense and Reason and words throughout almost verbatim As they were given in by themselves to the Committee of the long Parliament as appears in the second part of the grand Debate published by Persons intrusted by both Parties By way of Introduction You need not be remembred that the Presbyterians were earnest for an establishment with Uniformity and did declare that the Members of particular Congregations do cohabit and live together within certain bounds and Precincts of a Parish p. 6. n. 9. The Independents not well satisfied moved for an Indulgence and the Dialague may be supposed to begin thus A DIALOGUE Betwixt the INDEPENDENT AND PRESBYTERIAN Taken out of Papers given to the Committee of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines with the Commissioners of Scotland for Accomodations 1644. Printed 1648. Indep WE are not against your Rule and the establishment you desire onely we cannot in Conscionce be so confined And therefore we desire liberty to worship God in our own way by our selves Presh We are not altogether against an Indulgence but we would have none allowed the benefit of it but such as agree with us as to the substance of their Faith and Worship Indep Therefore you cannot deny it to us who thus agree with you Presh 1. But your desire plainly holds out a total separation As if our Churches were not to be communicated with in any thing which should argue Church-Communion and more could not be said or done against false Churches 2. It also plainly holds out the lawfulness of gathering Churches out of true Churches yea they add by way of aggravation the cause of our Reflecters mistake such true Churches as endeavour further to reform Whereof we are assured there is not the least hint of an Example in the Word of God 3. This liberty would pull down what the Parliament would set up and would give you a greater priviledge then we enjoy who are under the Rule of establishment 4. This would give countenance to a perpetual Schism and Division in the Church still drawing away from the Churches under the Rule c. and introduce all manner of confusion in Families where the Members are of several Churches Indep What liberty then are you contented to allow us that differ from you almost in nothing but matters of Government Presb. None may be allowed upon differences onely in matter of Government to withdraw Communion from us in things wherein they declare an agreement There may be no such indulgence granted to any as may constitute them in distinct Congregations as to those parts of worship where they can joyn in Communion with us Onely some expedient may be found to bear with them in the particulars wherein they cannot agree with us Indep What expedient Presb. Such as through scruple or error of Conscience cannot joyn to partaâ—e of the Lords Supper shall repair to the Minister and Elders for satisfaction in their Scruples which if they cannot receive they shall not be compelled to communicate Provided that in all other parts of worship they joyn with the Congregation in which they live and be under the Government of that Congregation So far you have in p. 18 19 20 c. Indep If this be all we must be pâ—ain with you We can't joyn with you without sin We would not liâ—ve without Ordinances And for the enjoyment of them for for our edâ—fiâ—cation we would joyn in another Congregation Yet so as not condemning those Churches we joyn not with as false but still preserving all Christian Communion with the Saints of the same body of the Church Catholick and joyn with them in all duties of worship that belong to particular Churches so far as we are able If this be called Schisme or the countenance of Schism it is more than we have yet learned p. 36. Is not this a very fair Plea It was once Independency And the Presbyterians then answer'd to it in every particular Indep We cannot without sin to us enjoy all the Ordinances of Christ and partake of all duties of worship as Members of that Congregation where our dwelling is And what would you have us do Presb. If you cannot in all yet partake in as many duties and ordinances as you can And let the Indulgence onely supply that wherein you cannot and not exempt you universally in that wherein you can But we desire you would speak freely and candidly Can you enjoy any one Ordinance in our Congregation as Members We should be glad to hear from you that you can be Members of that Congregation where your dwelling is p. 70. Indep But you know we cannot live without Ordinances for our edification Therefore for our spiritual good we may lawfully joyn in another Congregation Presb. 1. This will not follow upon your own Concession For you consess you can occasionally joyn with us without sin and why not constantly 2. Your Conscience may erre And the Church is no way bound to indulge a liberty then especially to the evident disturbance of her own peace 3. Whatever indulgence is granted let this be the boundary of it which is given by our Brethren themselves viz. that such as give no Testimony of their Godliness and Peaceableness such as have not used all means in faithfulness to know the mind of Christ such as do condemn those Churches which they joyn not with as
false as do not preserve all Christian Communion with the Saints nor joyn with them in all duties of worship so far as they are able shall not have the benefit of this indulgence And to the end that these words so far as they are able may not stand for a meer Cypher and signifie nothing let each man particularly declare in what ordinances he is able to joyn that so all total Separation may be prevented p. 70. Indep Though we shall not joyn with we will not condemn your Churches as false And this no rigid Separation p. 71. Presb. The condemning our Churches as false doth little extenuate the Separation For divers of the Brownists who have totally separated in former times have not condemned these Churches as false Though you do not pronounce an affirmative judgement against us your very separating is a tacit and practical condemning of our Churches if not as false yet as impure eousque as that in such Admistrations they cannot be by you as Members communicated with without sin Indep However though we cannot communicate with you as Members of your particular Congregations yet we will preserve all Christian Communion with you as Saints and Members of the Catholick Church Presb. This is as full a declining Communion with us as Churches as if we were false Churches p. 72. Indep If this be called Schism or the countenance of Schism it is more then we have yet learned either from the Scripture or any approved Author p. 73. Presb. It gives manifest countenance to perpetual Schâ—sm should this be allowed you Not that we think differences in Judgment in this or that point to be Schism or that every Inconformâ—ty unto every thing is Schism so as Communion be preserved Or that Separation from Idolotrous Communion ex se unlawful is Schism but 1. We find that you desire not onely that you may be free from communicating as Members in those Parishes where you dwell but also that you may have liberty to have Congregations of such persons who out of tenderness of Conscience cannot communicate with us but do voluntarily offer themselves to joyn in separate Congregations of another Communion Which Secession of our Members from us is a manifest rupture of our Societies into other and is therefore a Schism in the body And if the Apostle doth call those Divisions of the Church wherein Christians did not separate into diverse formed Congregations of several Communions in the Sacrament Schisms much more may such Separations as you desire be so called 2. We find it not alleaged as a Cause of your Separation either that our Churches are false or our Communion exâ—se unlawful but onely Scruple of Conscience that you cannot without sin as to you partake in all duties and enjoy all ordinances which is no Cause of separating nor doth it take off Causless Separation from being Schism which may arise from errours of Conscience as well as carnal and corrupt Reasons Therefore we conceive the Causes of Separation must be shewn to be such as ex Natura rei will bear it out which hath not yet been done nor we think can be 3. And now we desire you to shew out of Scripture and approved Authors what you have learned concerning Schism For the breaking off Members from their Churches which are lawfully constituted Churches and from Communion in Ordinances dispenfed according to Gods word without just and sufficient Cause ex natura rei to justifie such Secession and to joyn in other Congregations of separate Communion either because of Causless Scruple of their own Conscience or because of personal failings in the Officers or Members of the Congregation from which they separate hath been accounted Schism and the setting up Altare contra Altare And concurrently do approved Authors say and we likewise conceive that it is the Cause of the Separation which gives both name and thing to Schism For if the cause be unjust or insufficient according to the Rule of the Word of God let our Brethren tell us what such Separation is It is our â—arnest desire and Prayer that our Brethren might enjoy the Ordinances with the Peace of their Consciences and of the Church also or that they would rather deny themselves of their full liberty in every point then redeem it at the price of so much danger and disqâ—riet to the Churches of God p. 74 5 6 7. Indep The Ministers of the Parish Churches are not such as we can comfortably joyn with and sit down under Presh We do not believe that you mean that onely such should be allowed to gather into your Congregations who live under bad and unprofitable Ministers though that be the onely medium there used against our Reason Where the Ministry is without P. 84 85. just exception we refer it to your own Conscinces and to the practise of your Congregations to say how fit it is that the Members should ordinarily much less constantly seek the Ordinances elsewhere We long to know what Reformation of our Parishes will satisfie your Consciences or how this Kingdom may be made the Kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ better then by dividing it into several parts by the bounds of their dwellings that all who give up their Names to Christ may be taught and governed and have all the Ordinances administred among them suitable to their Conditions p. 102. Indep But it seems you would have us for ever to want the Lords Supper which is not to be endured p. 102. Presb. 1. Why may not some expedient satisfie you in this to prevent so great an evil as Separation 2. We may not do evil for any good end If a man should be brought to such a Streight as that either he must want the Lords Supper or separate from the Congregation whereof he is a Member he may here want the Ordinance during this Errour of his Conscience with less danger than to purchase it by a sinful separation 3. This is a strange and dangerous way of arguing which may open a gap to as many Divisions and Subdivisions in the Church as the Errours are unto which the minds of men are subject And if this be allow'd we desire you to consider how long not our Churches onely but your own or any other Churches in the World shall be free from uncurable unquietness Indep It must be a prejudice to the Church we are in if we separate from her in the Lords Supper And yet you would have us live under their Government whom we prejudice which seems unreasonable to us p. 104 Presb. If your Errours cause prejudice against you is it unreasonable for you to be under the Government of that Church which is prejudiced by you may you with good reason Scandalize the Church by Separation and the Church have no reason to govern you then prejudicating or scandalizing Errours are a Supersedeas to all Government We do not then wonder that Errours and perverse opinions so much abound it may be