Selected quad for the lemma: duty_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
duty_n	church_n	communion_n	join_v	1,153	5	7.8568	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
B23579	A Reply of two of the brethren to A. S. wherein you have observations on his considerations, annotations, &c. upon the apologeticall narration : with a plea for libertie of conscience for the apologists church way, against the cavils of the said A. S., formerly called M. S. to A. S. : humbly submitted to the judgements of all rationall and moderate men in the world : with a short survey of W. R. his Grave confutation of the separation, and some modest and innocent touches on the letter from Zeland and Mr. Parker's from New-England.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Steuart, Adam. Some observations and annotations upon the Apologetical narration. Selections.; Parker, Thomas, 1595-1677.	1644 (1644)	Wing G1198	108,381	124

Churches more holy then the Congregationall they are far more guilty of Schisme and Separation then their Brethren here spoken of For then they are at liberty in point of conscience to come over and joyn with them when as the other are in bands and fetters of conscience and cannot pass unto them Their Brethren would gladly come over unto them but cannot they can come over unto these but will not It is the will not the act that makes Schisme and Separation Fourthly we do not see as deep as you have laid the charge wherein the Apologists do any whit more symbolize with Convents Monasteries or Orders amongst the Papists then you and your friends You tell them that all their Churches believe one Doctrine together with you and that every one of these Churches hath one Minister as the Popish Convents a particular Abbot or Prior. Wee pray you do not all your Churches believe one Doctrine together and hath not every one of your Churches one Minister Wherein then lies the difference between you and them or wherein do they symbolize more with Convents or Monasteries then your self Nay fifthly and lastly as if you had quite forgotten your rhomb you tacitely couple your self with those Popish Convents Monasteries and Orders in one ignoble consideration from which you acquit your Brethren They only differ say you to them in this that yee have no Generall or any thing answerable thereunto to keep you in unity and conformity plainly implying that your Presbyterians have viz. their soveraign Judicatory So that if this your reason should but take place and be held valid it is your Presbyterian party not the party Apologizing that ought to suffer the non-toleration you speak of it being they not these that are the great symbolizers with St Francis and St Dominick To your twelfth Reason we have given answer upon answer formerly His 12. Reason answered as first where we considered of the examples of the Kings of Judah and shewed how little they contribute to the claim of coercive power in the Magistrate to take away Heresies Schismes Superstitions c. Secondly where we argued against such a power by severall demonstrations Thirdly where we gave an account also how Toleration is no way either to Schisme Heresie c. So that that there is not one apex or ieta of this Reason remaining unanswered The Logico-Divinity of your thirteenth Reason consisteth in this His 13. Reason Answered Enthymeme If we have but one God one Christ and one Lord one Spirit one Faith one Baptisme whereby we enter into the Church and are one Body we ought to have one Communion whereby to be spiritually fed and one Discipline to be ruled by and if so then ought not the Apologists to be tolerated We answer that neither doth your inference or conclusion here at all follow from your premisses We have all you speak of one one and one and in regard of that multiplied unitie we ought as you say to have one Communion and one Discipline But first not necessarily that Communion or that Discipline which are of Classique inspiration no more then those which are either of Papall or Episcopall recommendation because though wee judge these two latter spirits more sphalmaticall erroneous and dangerous then the first yet wee cannot think that either the Pope or Bishops or both together have so ingrossed the spirit of erreour and fallibility but that they have left of that anointing more then enough to initiate all other Orders Societies and Professions of men in the world Secondly though wee ought to have one Communion and Discipline yet ought wee to be led into this unity by the hand of an Angel of light not to be frighted into it by an evill angel of fear and terrour Thirdly that duty which lies upon all Christians to have but one Communion and Discipline amongst them is no dispensation unto any party or number of them to smite their Brethren with the fist of uncharitableness or to dismount them from their ministeriall standings in the Church because they will not or rather cannot knit and joyn in the same Communion and Discipline with them Nay fourthly that very tye of duty which lies upon all Christians to have but one and the same Communion and Discipline amongst them carries this ingagement upon them all along with it to shew all love to use all manner of gentleness and long suffering towards those that are contrary minded to them either in the one or in the other since love is not only a sodering and uniting affection but further commends the person in whom it is found as one to whom God hath appeared and who hath been taught by him Therefore fifthly and lastly to make the ingagement that lies upon all Christians to have but one Communion and Discipline a ground and reason why such as differ from others about these should be evill intreated suppressed kept under hatches or the like is as if a man should plead that naturall affection which a parent ows unto his children for a ground and motive why he should sharply scourge them when they are sick and weak His fourteenth Reason is of an unknown strength at least to me His 14. Reason answered If I were a Magistrate I should never the more know how to prepare to battell against the Apologists or any other godly person for the sound of this trumpet Surely of all the rest this Reason will never be accessary to the undoing of these men However let a poor man be heard in his cause The Reason then with all the help it is capable of riseth up but thus If Churches have Disciplines or Governments different in their species then the Churches must be different in their species also But the consequent is false since there is but one Church Ergo Apologisme is intolerable They that can gather this conclusion out of the premisses may very well hope to gather Grapes of Thorns and Figs of Thistles The consequent in this argument which the Disputer saith is false is this Churches must be different in their species If the meaning of this consequent be that there is an absolute necessity that Churches should differ specie one from another the Disputant is in the truth in saying the consequent is false Or if the meaning be that Churches ought to differ specie one from another the same verdict may still pass upon it But upon that supposition which is made in the Antecedent of this argument viz. that these Churches have Disciplines or Governments different in their species the consequent is not only true but necessarily true and that upon the Disputants own ground which is that all collective bodies that are governed are differenced specie by their different governments But be the Consequent or be the Antecedent or be the Consequence be any thing be nothing or be every thing in the premisses either true or false why sho●●d not the Apologists be tolerated notwithstanding Be

For which there is not the least in the Scriptures we would have a free voluntary recourse out of conscience to the brotherly advise of neighbour Churches or a Synod dogmatically to declare Christs minde unto us and in case of refusall to submit to their judgement having no ground in Scripture to refuse the Advising Churches to renounce communion with the offending Church and the particular Church to pronounce excommunication against their offending brother So that the difference is not in ente sed modo not in the thing but the manner rather We say therefore it is your duty to give us our own our liberty as much if not more as we to let you alone whiles both parties avouch that they are unconvinced as yet of a possibility of a neerer agreement We know not of the least clause of a sentence or peece of an example in all the Scriptures for any to constrain mens consciences by outward violence positively to act contrary to their principles conscientiously held or for any to yeeld thereunto We have many passages to the contrary in Scripture The Amorites gently intreated Abraham and his family and were confederate with them Gen. 14. 13. So did the Philistines or men of Gerar Gen. 20. And before both the Egiptians Gen. 12. 19. So did the men of Gerar deale with Isaac Gen. 26. The Sechemites said they would kindly intreat Jacob and his sons because they were peaceable Gen. 34. 20 c. The Egiptians appoint Goshen for the Israelites to dwell peaceably in the midst of Egypt The Chaldeans or Babylonians at length allow the Jewes the libertie of their religion with all accommodations thereunto Nehem. and Ezra throughout Compare 2 Chron. 36. The Romans likewise bare with the Jewes and their Judaisme for many yeares both before and after Christs time How much more therefore should Protestants beare with Protestants who have spent their estates and blood in winning their joint liberty from the common enemy Atheists Papists Neuters Prelats c. Christs rule is to win men by instruction and not to force men with destruction in matters of religion Matth. 10. 14 15. v. 27 28. Luke 9. 54. 1 Cor. 7. 23. 2 Tim. 2. 24 25. 2 Tim. 4. 1 2 3 4. with infinite more places Nor doe we find in Scripture persecution to be raised by the Iewish Church against Religion but onely when the divinely instituted ceremonies which had got such esteem in the Iewes hearts were about to be taken downe by the preaching of the libertie of the Gospel and a spirituall worship unknown as yet to the whole world For in the Iewish Church before and in Christ and the Apostles times 1. were the Sadduces Matth. 16. 1. who denied the resurrection Angels and Spirits Acts 23. 8. 2. The Pharisees Matth. 23. who though they confessed those held Fate Free-will and humane Traditions See Ioseph lib. 3. and Chem. in exam Conc. Trident. part p. 20. on 1 Tim. 5. 23. 1 Tim. 4. 3. Coloss 2. 3. The Assideans Chasidim or Good men Rom. 5. 7. which Assideans mentioned in the Apocrypha 1 Maccab. 7. 13. are translated by Joseph 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Good men lib 12. cap. 16. who studied to adde to the Scriptures and professed to be holy above the law 4. The Essenes who held it unlawfull to drink wine forbad marriage and commanded those dogmata therefore Coloss 2. the Apostle useth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being the Esseans words Touch not tast not handle not because the junior Esseans might not touch the Elders or Seniors nor might tast save onely bread salt water and hyssop 5. The Pythagoreans who held that the soule of the last departed rose in the body of the next that was born Herod seems to be of this opinion Mat. 14. 1 2. See the Geneva notes on that place yet we find no publick persecution raised by the Jewish Church against these or of these one against another So in the Church of Corinth were divers odde and some dangerous opinions as doubting of the resurrection to come conceiving it to be past already yet no persecution moved against them So in the Church of Galatia so in the 7. Churches of Asia The Churches force not them that are without by persecution but are rebuked for not excommunicating or neglect of convincing and reproving them that are within For later times if the Turks allow Christians that are peaceable the liberty of their conscience both Greeks English c. and the Spaniards Germans c. permit the Jewes no wonder if the Low-countrey-men permit severall opinions of Protestants among them We are worse then the Indians if we should not deale kindly with orthodox Christians We justly abhor the ten persecutions against the injustice whereof Aristides Justinus Mileto Sardensis Apollinaris Athenagoras Tertullianus and others wrote Apologies in behalfe of Christian religion And we justly abhor the Spanish inquisition the English Marian persecutions and the Bishops high Commission against all which many worthy men have writ learnedly And we have seen the event of endevouring to force conscience in matter of opinion or worship On the one side in England it made many thousands of hypocrits Church-papists time-servers c. And on the other side in Holland and Scotland it justly caused State-insurrections and for the same reason wee also are legally now up in arms to obtaine assurance that we shall have the liberty of conscience and law I speak not this as if on the one hand I did now charge this upon the intentions of the State God forbid His meliora spere But onely I seasonably answer A. S. and prevent what I can anyes turning A. Ssians in their opinions or instigations I hope it shall never be known in the world that ever any persecuted the miscalled Separatists or Independents that are sound in opinion pure in discipline and holy in practice save onely Papists and Prelaticall men These were the first and I hope shall be the last that ever persecuted the Saints of the most high Nor on the other hand do I speak this as to intimate that I a prove a toleration of the broaching of all opinions or any toleration of some practises 1. The least venting of any opinion against fundamentalls as Judaisme denying Christ to be the true M●ssi●s Arrianisme and Socinianisme opposing the Deity of Jesus Christ Arminianisme that questions the person of the Holy Ghost Papisme holding Justification by works or that Anabaptisme that denies the derivation of Adams originall corruption to us and the power of Christs grace to be conveyed to us without any spirituall power of our free will falsly supposed to be in us or of the like opinions ought to be suppressed by due proportion to that rule That no man or Prophet c. might intice his kindred friend or neighbour to Idolatry on pain of death Deut. 13. 1. to 12. much less is the practice of Idolatry or any impiety

have ever had of your persons c. except onely in your particular opinions wherein the dissent from al Protestant yea all Christian Churches in the world M. S. Now let the Protestant Churches to whom you say you submit judge whether in these words there be not a notorious untruth For wherein doe the five Ministers and their Churches differ from many Churches in England diverse in Holland and generally all within the Patent of New-England if you account these places Protestant It may be you will object Mr. Parkers Letter and some Manuscripts from New-England and the Letter from Zeland To Mr. Parker his Letter we neede say little the Letter will answer for us though Mr. Parker little thought when he wrote it to finde an A. S. in England or that his brother Bayly would have printed his Letter seemingly to anticipate the disputation of the Assembly as if hee meant to beg the question though but with shewes and shadowes 1. Mr. Parker saith not one word for a Classicall Presbyterie the maine difference in hand but for a Congregationall that he would have in some things more managed by the Presbyteries of every Congregation without putting every thing to the vote of the people of the Congregation because some confusion hath followed upon it Doth in necessaries abuse take away the use There was confusion in the Church of Corinth Or is there any mention of this in the Apologie that all businesses of the Church must be put to the vote of the Congregation 2. That in that thing only there hath been an arguing on both sides M. Parker Mr. Noyse only are mentioned in the letter to be on the one side all the other Churches on the other against Mr. Parker and Mr. Noyse And 3ly Mr. Parker doth not say he won the day but as hee answered their Arguments as he saith so he confesseth they answered his Arguments and the thing is left to consideration Yea a godly man of New-England told me that the Churches of New-England did conceive that Mr. Parker had received full satisfaction from them in that point How ever it were all amounts but to a private letter subscribed by one man yet Imprimatur saith I. C. as if much to the purpose But looke but a little afterward to our answer to a Letter from Zeland and you shall find the judgement of New-England in Letters newly come over To any private copies or Manuscripts from New-England one Mr. Rutherford hath answered as too much jumping with the Apologie and opposite to Classicall Presbytery Another if it had come forth would have beene keener against A. S. then the Apologie is So that if ●he Apologie doe differ from that it 's onely because the Apologie more agrees with the reformed Churches of this Island And for the third it hath nothing at all for Classicall Presbyterie but some things touching the ordering of Congregationall Presbyteries and all these are but private intelligencers and mutuall advisers not determination or nationall No more then I suppose Mr. Cranford or A. S. will account the strange Queries on the Apologie and Scotch Commissioners Reply to bee the sense of New-England though made by one of that Countrey As for the letter of Zeland I cannot tell how to speak all the truth not offend some whom by my will I would not in the least displease Sure this will not offend to tell A. S. that in Holland if not in Zeland are some Churches that are fully with the five Ministers unto which some of them doe relate And to speake these things to the Letter it selfe being matters of fact I hope cannot justly offend 1. That that Letter came admirably punctuall upon the very nick after the first reply to the Apologie was out 2. That a Scottish Knight as it was informed nine or ten dayes before it was known abroad that the letter was to come said What if ye receive a Letter from Zeland disliking the Apologie or to that effect 3. That there is a Scottish Church of which one Spang is a very busie agent at Trevere hard by Middleborough whence the letter came 4. That there are in it many high passages seeming to some so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy that it justifies that of the Apology saying That the five Ministers c. give more to the Civil Magistrates then tbe principles of some Presbyterians do The said letter giving so too little to the Magistracy that the State of England I think cannot approve it here among us Verbum sapientisat est More may be thought upon evident grounds but not spoken here 5. Most happily by almost a miraculary providence in this nick of time came two letters from New-England to countermand Mr. Parkers Letter thence and the other from Zeland The first from Mr. Winthorp Governor of New England To his reverend and very good brother Mr. Hugh Peters Minister of the Gospel these deliver in London Our late Assembly of about fourty Elders met wherein the way of our Churches was approved and the Presbytery disallowed Winthorp Governor Decemb. 10. 1643. The second from another of New-England to another Minister in Old-England about the same time wherein we have these passages We have had saith he a Synod lately in our Colledge wherein sundry things were agreed on gravely as That the votes of the people are needfull in all admissions and excommunications at least in way of consent all yeelding to act with their consent 2. That those that are fit matter for a Church though they are not alwayes able to make large and particular relations of the work and doctrine of faith yet must not live in the commission of any known sin or the neglect of any known duty 3. That consociation of Churches in way of more generall meetings yearly and more private monethly or quarterly as Consultative Synods are very comfortable and necessary for the peace and good of the Churches 4. It was generally desired that the exercitium of the Churches power might onely be in the Eldership in each particular Church unlesse their sinnes be apparent in their worke 5. That Parishes Churches in old England could not be right without a renewed Covenant at least and the refusers excluded And were not New-England so farre the Churches of New-England would soon send a third punctually to approve the Apologie unless it bee for their neerer compliance with them who notwithstanding have written against them We have been the longer in answer to this clause because wee finde A. S. to bee but the Text of other mens Commentary-discourses who say That the five Ministers will oppose all the visible Christian Churches in the world If they did it were not such a wonder as for one Wickliff in one age one Husse in another and Luther in a third to oppose all the world The truth is all Churches generally partly by tyranny and partly by Security are grown so corrupt that to apologize for a through reformation seemes to