Supposition likewise into Consideration and Word the whole Matter as plainly as we can The Church says Ye may Do And the Law says You must Do That which your Conscience says You ought not to Do. How will you reconcile your Duty and your Conscience in This Case N. C. Uery well For I think it my Duty to Obey my Conscience upon This Principle That Conscience is God's Substitute over Individuals C. Keep to That and Answer me once again Is not the Civil Magistrate God's Substitute too If He be How comes your Conscience to take place of his Authority They are Both Commission'd alike and consequently Both to be Obey'd alike Which is Impossible where their Commands are Inconsistent N. C. The Magistrate is a Publique Minister and his Commission does not reach to Particular Consciences C. And on the Other side You are a Private Person and there is as little Reason for your Opinion to Operate upon a Publique Law So that if I mistake you not we are upon accord thus far That every Particular is to look to One and the King to the Whole Now if you would deal as Candidly with me about the Ecclesiastical Power as you have done in the Civil we might make short work of This Question I hope you will not deny that the Church is as well Authorized to TEACH and INSTRUCT in all the External Acts of Worship as the Magistrate is to COMPEL to Those External Acts. N. C. There is no Doubt The Church as the Church has a Ministerial Power Ex Officio to Define Controversies according to the Word of God And that A Synâ—…d Lawfully Conven'd is a Limited Ministerial and Bounded Visible Iudge and to be believed in so far as they fellow Christ the Peremptory and Supreme Iudge speaking in his own Word C. This will not do our Business yet for to say that a Synod is to be believed in SO FAR as it follows Christ seems to make Those the Iudges of That Act that are to be Concluded by it and leaves the Credit of the Authority dependent upon the Conscience Fancy or Humour of the Believer For 't is but any Man's saying that the Synod does not follow Christ and that he trusts in it so far as it does follow Him And this is enough to keep the Controversie afoot without any hope of Decision N. C. We are indeed to believe Truths determined by Synods to be Infallible and never again liable to Retraction or Discussion Not because so says the Synod but because so says the Lord. C. Still you are short for 't is not in Our Power to disâ—…elieve what we acknowledge to be a Truth But That which is Truth at the Fountain may be Corrupted in the Passage Or at least appear so to Me and What then N. C. It must be look't upon as an Errour of the Conscience which is no Discharge at all of your Obedience From which Errour you are to be reclaimed either by Instruction or Censure For the People are obliged to Obey Those that are OVER THEM IN THE LORD who Watch for their Souls as those who must give an Accompt And not oblig'd to stand to and obey the Ministerial and Official Iudgment of THE PEOPLE He that Heareth YOU MINISTERS of the GOSPEL not the PEOPLE Heareth ME And He that Despiseth YOU Despiseth ME. C. Why should not We Two shake Hands now and Join in the Act for Uniformity You cannot say that it wants any thing of the full Complement of a Binding Law Either in regard of the Civil or of the Ecclesiastical Authority Here is first the Iudgment of the Church duely conven'd touching the Meetness and Conveniency of the Rites and Forms therein Conteined You have next the Royal Sanction Approving and Authorizing Those Rites and Forms and Requiring your Exact Obedience to them Now so it is that you can neither Decline the Authority of your Iudges nor the Acknowledgment of your Duties What is it then that hinders your Obedience N. C. That which to Me is more then all the World It goes against my Conscience C. Only That Point then and we have done with This Subject We have already concluded that God is the Iudge of the World That the Church is the Iudge of what properly concerns Religion That the Civil Magistrate is Iudge of what belongs to Publique Order and Peace and That every Man's Conscience is the Iudge of what concerns his own Soul The Remaining Difficulty is This How I am to behave my self in a Case where the Law bids me do One Thing and my Conscience Another To take a True Estimate of This Matter We are first to Ballance the Two Interests that meet in Competition The One for the Law and the Other against it There is in Favour and for the EXECUTION of the Law meaning That of Uniformity 1. The Personal Conscience and 2. The Political Conscience of the King There is moreover for the EQUITY of it the Solemn and Deliberate Iudgment of the Church which is effectually the Publique Conscience and lastly for the OBSERVANCE of it There is the Duty of the Subject which if it be withdrawn does not only Invalidate This Particular Act but it loosens the Sinews of Sovereign Authority and which is more it destroys even a Divine Ordinance For take away Obedience and Government lapses into Confusion Now for the Counterpoise AGAINST This Law and Thus Supported appears your Naked Conscience Nay That 's the Fairest on 't It may be worse and in Truth any thing that 's Ill under That Name N. C. But what 's the World to Me in the Scale against my Soul C. You have great Reason sure and 't is no more then every Man may challenge That is to Stand or Fall to his own Conscience Is that your Principle N. C. Yes out of Doubt 't is Mine and Yours and any Man's that's Honest. C. Well Hold ye a little Your Conscience will not down with This Law and This Law will as little down with your Conscience Weigh now the Good against the Bad What if it stands What if it yields Make the Case worse then it is as Bad as Bad may be in your own Favour You cannot comply with the Law And the Law will not stoop to You. What follows upon it N. C. The Ruine of many Godly People that desire to Worship God according to his Word C. That Plea wrought little upon You from Us but let that pass What sort of Ruine do you mean Ruine of Liberty or Estate For this Law draws no Blood State your Misfortunes I beseech ye N. C. No Man must Hold a Benefice or Teach a School but upon Terms of such Subscription or Acknowledgment as many an honest Man would rather Die then Consent to So that We are Distrest not only for Our Selves as being deprived of the Comfort of all Spiritual and Heavenly Freedoms But Our poor Infants are exposed to be Undone wanting the Means
endanger Authority as the Other For All may Iudge Thus as well as One. C. 'T is possible they may Nay we 'l suppose an Imposition foul enough to move them all to do so and yet there 's a large difference For Diversity of Iudgment does not shake the Foundation of Authority and a Man may disobey a Sinful Command with great Reverence to the Power that Imposes it N C. You were saying e'en now that my Duty to God and to the King could never be Inconsistent How shall I behave my self I pray'e if the King command one thing and God another I cannot observe the Law without violence to my Conscience nor discharge my Conscience without Offence to the Law What Course shall I take to avoid Enterfering C. Demeaâ—… your self as a Christian toward the LAW of God one the One hand and as a Subject toward the ORDINANCE of God on the Other As considering that you are discharg'd of your Obedience in That Particular but not of your Subjection in the General N. C. Put Case the Supreme Magistrate should by a Law Establish a False Worship C. He 's nevertheless your Prince and even in This Complication you may acquit your self both to God and to Caesar. Though the Worship be amiss The Magistrate is yet to be Reverenc'd and you are to divide the One from the Other in such manner as still both to Fear God and Honour the King This Loyal and Religious Separation of our Duties will set us right in the Main Controversie Where do ye find that Kings Reign upon Condition of Ruling Righteously Or that we owe them Less AFTER Misgovernment then we did Before N. C. But do you say we are bound to Honour an Idolatrous Prince This is not according to the Doctrine of many of our Grave Divines C. They are never the Better Divines for That Doctrine The Prince I tell ye you are bound to Honour though not as an Idolater Shall the Vice or Errour of the Person degrade the Order By That Rule The World must continue without a Government till we can find Men without Failings N. C. So that when it makes for your Turn you can Allow I see of Distinguishing betwixt the PERSON and the OFFICE C. Betwixt the Frailty of the One and the Sacredness of the Other I do for Kings Command as Gods though they Iudge as Men. But I do no more approve of Dividing the Person of a Prince from his Authority then of Dividing his Soul from his Body N. C. And I beseech you What is That which you call AUTHORITY C. It is the Will and Power of a Multitude deliver'd up by Common Consent to some One Person or More for the Good and Safety of the Whole And This Representative Acts for All. Now on the other side The Disposition of such or such a Number of Persons into an Order of Commanding and Obeying is That which we call a Society N. C. What is the Duty of the Supreme Magistrate C. To procure the Welfare of the People Or according to the Apostle He is the Minister of God for a Comfort to those that do Well and for a Terrour to Evil doers N. C. How far are his Laws Binding upon his Subjects C. So far as They that Parted with their Power had a Right over Themselves N. C. Whence was the Original of Power And what Form of Government was First Regal or Popular C. Power was Ordein'd of God but Specifi'd by Man And beyond doubt the First Form of Government was Monarchique N. C. But I should rather think the Popular Form was First For how could there be a King without a People C So was the Son before the Father you may say for How could there be a Father without a Son But the Qâ—…estion is First Was the World ever without a Government since the Creation of Mâ—…n Secondly Whether was there first in the World One Man or More But we are not here upon the Form of Government but upon the Latitude of Humane Iurisdiction be the Sovereignty where it will And my Assertion is that It extends to whatsoever God has left Indifferent If you deny This you overthrow all Government N. C And what are you the better If I should grant it unless we could All come to an Agreement about what is Indifferent and what not C. Which must be procured by the Allowance of some Iudicial Authority to decâ—…de it SECT XXII No End of Controversie without a FINAL and UNACCOMPTABLE JUDGE from whose Sentence there shall be no Appeal C. WHen Subjects come once to Dispute Laws The War is already Declar'd against the Government For it is not the Equity or Iniquity of the MATTER of the Law that is the Question but the AUTHORITY of the LAW-MAKER under the countenance indeed of somewhat that might be mended in the Law it self And the Business comes Immediately to This Issue Whether the King or the People shall Determine in what concerns the Good of the Community That is to say Whether the Government shall Stand or Fall Whether or no we shall submit our selves quietly to be over-ruled in all Controversies by a Definitive Sentence of Law according to the End and Intention of Government in its first Institution Or otherwise by receding from that Common Peaceable and Impartial Arbitrator of all our Differences from our Faith given our Oaths and Contracts throw our selves back again into a State of Nature and Dissolution and for want of a Moderator leave all our Disagreements to be decided by the Sword The certain Event of all Popular Appeals from Laws to Multitudes This was tbe Ruine of us in our Late Confusions The Faction you saw could do nothing upon the Suggestions of Right or Wrong Convenience or Inconvenience till they came to make Themselves the Iudges of it And no sooner were they Possest of That Pretension but all went presently head-long to Destruction From Questioning the Legal Power of the King they proceeded to the Exercise of an Arbitrary Power Themselves From Asserting the Subjects Liberties to the Invading of them And from the Reformation of Abuses to the Extirpation of the Government The Two Houses led the Dance and outed the King The Commons did as much for the Lords and the People as much for the Commons Which comes to no more then what was reasonably to be expected upon turning the Course of Publick Affairs into a wrong Channel and subjecting the Indisputable Rights of Sovereign Authority to the Censures and Expostulations of the Rabble N. C. What are those Indisputable Rights I beseech ye C. I reckon among others The Power of Making Laws and likewise of Enforcing the Execution of them without admitting any sort of Demur or Contradiction for let the People break in once upon any One Law and they will hardly quit their hold till they have worm'd out or unsettled all the Rest. In short I do esteem it a matter of Absolute Necessity to the Peace and the very Beeing
of a Religious Education C. If This be All never Trouble your selves for many an honest Man has out-liv'd more then this comes to In short There 's a huge Clamour but God knows with little Reason Some Particulars will possibly suffer for want of a Toleration and who are They but the Profest Opposers of the Law And on the Other side All the Friends of the Government will suffer by it If you would see the Event of Granting what you ask Turn but your Face toward 41 and then Blush and Repent Besides You 're not aware that in Contesting with the Law you Quarrel with your self THERE' 's YOUR OWN VOTE AGAINST YOU and all this Muttering is no other then your Factious Will wrangling with your Political Consent And yet I say Stick to your Conscience Let us now put the Case of a Real Distance betwixt This Act and your Conscience How will you divide your Duty N. C. I 'le follow your Advice and stick to my Conscience C. Now change Hands and make your self the Supreme Magistrate He has a Double Conscience One that concerns Himself the Other his People What his Majesties Personal Iudgment is has been Declared Abundantly What his Prudential Iudgment may dispose Him to lies in His Royal Brest But be That as Heaven shall Order it Here 's the Partition of your Rights The King's Prerogative has nothing to do with your Conscience and your Conscience has as little to do with His Majesties Prerogative The King is Accomptable to God for the Welfare of his People and You are only Accomptable to God for the Good of your little Particular If You cannot Obey the Law Do not But abide the Penalty If the Sovereign cannot Relax the Law He 's as Free to Execute it Your Conscience requires Liberty and your Governour 's Conscience requires Order Now why you should expect that your Sovereign should bring down His Conscience to Yours when you find upon Experiment that you cannot perswade your Own to come up to His is to me a Mystery To Conclude Keep your self within your Sphere and where you cannot Consent as a Christian Submit as a Subject that We may at last hope for some Respite from the Calamities of Sedition and Schism N. C. And why not Scandal and Profaneness too For the Edge of your Severity might be directed to much better Purpose That way SECT XXIV The Church of England charges the Non-Conformists with SCHISM and the Non-Conformists charge those of the Church with SCANDAL The Matter is taken into Debate N. C. YOur Position is That no Toleration is to be admitted to the hazzard of Religion Good Life and Government Keep to That Standard and you will find that the Conformists have as little Pretense to a Toleration as their Neighbours and that the Notorious Scandal on the one side outweighs the Objected Schism on the other C. This will scarce hold if you come to be Try'd by your own Laws which make it a Matter of Scandal by Writing Preaching or otherwise to publish a Disaffection to the Present Government But Explain your self N. C. By Scandal I mean Habitual Prophaneness Sensuality Dissolution of Manners c. As by Schism I suppose you intend our Incompliances with your Church-Discipline Weigh These Two now One against the Other and do you your self hold the Balance Set up your Tavern-Clubs against our Conventicles Oppose your Combinations against God Himself to our Plots against the Government For you must not take it Ill if I tell ye that Atheism is become the Sport and Salt of your most Celebrated Enterteinments And when you have dash'd the Bible out of Countenance with the Story of the Three Grand Impostors or some such Lashing Piece of Drollery The Questioning of God's Over-ruling Wisdom by Solemn Arguments and the Placing of Fortune in the Throne of Providence is that which commonly Crowns your Conversations C. You should not charge Personal Crimes upon a Party unless you can prove them to be rationally Consequent to the Tenets and Actings of That Party Now if you can shew me any Affinity betwixt our Principles and These Impieties you say something But if you cannot The Dust of your Argument puts out your own Eyes I do not wonder I must confess to see a Nation Over-run with Atheism that has been so many Years under your Tuition or to find the Brat of a Conventicle laid at the Church-Door N. C. May not We charge Personal Extravagancies upon your Party as well as You do upon Ours C. Yes If you can prove the same Agreement against Us betwixt the Faults of the One and the Principles of the Other which we are able to justifie against You. The Episcopal Party you know stood for the King and it is undeniable that the King and Church had the same Cause and Fate It is as unquestionable on the other side that the Non-Conformists destroy'd both the One and the Other Not by Accident neither but by a Form'd and Excogitated Design wrap'd up and couch'd in the very Mystery and Foundation of the Schism Your Separation from a Communion with the Church resolving naturally into a Combination against the Entire Frame of the Government till in the End by the help of a Peinful and Well-effected Ministry the Generality of the People were Preach'd into This Division i. e. Those that could not reach the Cheat were taught to Scruple at Every Thing and Those that went along with it to make a Conscience of Nothing And this is it that has brought us to be so Pester'd with Enthusiasts and Atheists N. C. But let me tell ye again the Atheists are of the Other Party C. And let me enform you too that your Proceedings have made Atheists more ways then One First The meer Quality of your Cause has made Atheism the Interest of a great many of your Partakers who to put off the Thought of a Divine Vengeance attending them if there be a God Endeavour for their own Quiet to perswade themselves that there is no God at all Secondly The Work has been carried on under the Masque of Holiness and the most Desperate Atheist is nothing else but a Crusted Hypocrite I speak of your Religious Atheist who has This Odds of the Profane and Scoffing Wretch that he abuses God to his Face and in his own House The Great Atheists indeed are Hypocrites says Sir Francis Bacon which are ever bandling Holy Things but without Feeling so as they must needs be Cauteriz'd in the End It is Remarquable as I have elsewhere recommended to your Observation that in the Holy Scripture there are not so many Woes pronounc'd nor so many Cautions Inculcated against any sort of People as against Hypocrites You shall there find that God has given the Grace of Repentance to Persecutors Idolaters Murtherers Adulterers c. But I am mistaken if the whole Bible yields any one Instance of a CONVERTED Hypocrite Thirdly You have done more in your Practises
Assemblies and whensoever they shall think fit to say that the Good of the Church the Glory of God or any Spiritual end is concerned They make no Scruple in the World of Levying Armes Men Monies Seizing of Castles and Forts Issuing out of Warrants for Members of Parliament They impose Oaths and Covenants against the King Himself Encounter Proclamations with Anti Protests Rescind Acts of Counsels c. And what 's the colour for all this Haughtiness and State The Ministers forsooth are Christs Deputies and their Acts are Christ's Ordinances whereas Iudges Counsellers and Parliaments are but the King's Substitutes and their Laws only Humane Presb. You are not any more to conclude against the Presbyterial Government from the President of some Factious Assemblies than against the Constitution of Parliaments from the President of some Seditious Compositions and Elections Indep Neither do I charge these Imposing Usurpations upon the Confederacy of a Cabal or a Faction but upon the Original Scope and Mystery of the Discipline for I find them rooted in the very Foundation of their Policy Their Pragmatical Intermedling in Civil Affairs and Matters of State is warranted by their Book of Government where it is said that The Minister handleth External things only for Conscience cause Now I would faâ—…n know That Notion which may not some way or other be made Relative to Conscience For Limiting the Magistrate in the Exercise of his Power they have this Plea that though the Ministers do not EXERCE the Civil Iurisdiction they TEACH the Magistrate how it should be Exercised according to the Word So that the Prince is put to Schoole to the Masterships of his Parish to learn every point and circumstance of his Duty Now for the Absolute and Boundless Iurisdiction of their General Assemblies They tell us not only that The Kirk is to appoint Times and Places convenient for their Meeting but that as well Magistrates as Inferiours are to be SUBIECT to the IUDGMENT of the same in Ecclesiastical Causes without any Reclamations or APPEAL to any Iudge Civil or Ecclesiastical Is not this a Dethroning of Majesty to set Princes and Peasants upon the same Level in point of Subjection to their Resolutions and Decrees Presb. Not at all For the Magistrate is to assist and maintein the Discipline of the Kirk And punish them Civilly that will not obey the Censure of the same Indep In truth it is a Goodly Office you have allotted the Chief Magistrate to set him Cheek by Iowle with the Beadle of the Parish You are to direct the Punishment and He is to Execute it But what if he should prove Refractary and dispute yoâ—…r Authority In Case of Contumacy He is as Liable to Censure you say as another person And then you have no more to do but to resort to your ordinary Method of Calling in the Noblemen Barons Gentlemen Burgesses and Commons to your Assistance against him Let me now marque to you two Passages in your Discipline that make two shrewd discoveries A Minister you say must not frequent and commonly haunt the COURT unless either sent by the Kirk or called upon by Authority for his Counsel and Iudgment in CIVIL AFFAIRS And afterwards you say that Ministers may and should assist their Princes when required in all things agreeable to the Word whether it be in COUNSEL or PARIAMENT or otherwise Provided that through Flattery of Princes they hurt not the Publique state of the Church Whence it appears First that simple Presbyters may do well enough in Parliaments or Councils though Bishops are Excluded were it not Secondly for the danger of creating a Kindness betwixt the King and the Kirk which in consequence would frustrate the main Design For the Prime end of this Church Policy is the Overtopping and Subjecting of the Secular Power and it was wisely done to temper the very Foundation of it with Principles of Opposition to the Order and well Being of Civil Government SECT XXIX The Question of Toleration â—…etwixt Presbytery and Independency Debated with regard to the Foundation and Execution of the LAW Presb. WHat if you had put the Question betwixt a Peaceable and Obedient sort of people and a Generation of men that cannot live out of Contention Indep The mâ—…n of Contention I suppose you would have me understand to be the Independents What 's the Quarrel to them upon the matter now before us Presb. Only This that they are Intolerable in any Government How many Plots have they had upon this Kingdom since his Majesties Return There was Venner's Rising A Conspiracy in the North Another in Ireland Indep And all this while yâ—…u forget the Rebellion in Scotland which was professedly Presbyterian beside that These disorders which you speak of were nothing at all to the Independents But one way or other these Instances are to no purpose without some Authoritative Allowance and Pray'e let us agree upon it that only the Conclusions of the Kirk on the one hand and of the Church on the other may be Insisted upon as the Acts of either Party Presb. I do not find that the Independent Churches come to any Resolutions at all Indep You have the less to say then against their Principles and I wish the Indepâ—…ents could say the same thing for the Presbyterians How far I beseech you are Humane Laws Binding Presb. â—…o far forth as they are agreeable to the Word of God Indep And who shall Determine what Laws and Constitutions are agreeable to God's Word Presb. The Church Lawfully Constitute which all Godly Princes and Magistrates ought to hear and to obey their voice and reverence the Majesty of the Son of God speaking in them Indep I need not ask what Church that is For Iohn Mâ—…rellius was Excommunicate for mainteyning in a certain Treatise That TELL THE CHURCH did not belong to the Consistâ—…ry and the Book was burnt But to the Poynt If the Word of God be the Rule for Humane Laws and the Presbytery the sole Expounders of the Word of God the Law of the Nation is at the Mercy of the Kirk already for 't is but saying that This or That Law is not Agreeable to the Word of God and there 's an end on 't Presb. The Kirk has Power to Abrogate and Abolish all Statutes aâ—… Ordinances concerning Ecclesiastical Matterâ—… that are found nâ—…ysome and unproâ—…table and agree not with the â—…ime or are abused by the People Indep If the Kirk has This Power the Pope Himself pretends to nothing beyond it Are not your Determinations as pereâ—…ptory and your Orders as Imperious But I am speaking here as to the Latitude of your Pretended Iurisdiction You may abrogate All Statutes you say CONCERNING Ecclesiastical Matters And I say on the other side that you may upon that Ground abrogate all the Statutes in the Christian World for I defie the whole race of Mankind to shew me any one Law extant or