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A55892 The principles of a people stiling themselves Philadelphians discovered in their nicest points and matters; accurately handled, shewing their rise, continuance, and tenents in doctrin and manner of proceeding, &c. Also a curious discourse between an English dissenter and French Protestant, by way of dialogue, in vindication of the Church of England against novelties in religion. Lafite, Daniel. Friendly discourse between an English dissenter and a French Protestant. 1697 (1697) Wing P3494A; ESTC R219027 36,218 131

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to stem the violent torrent of the Mobile and to hold out against the Persecutions of all the wicked Now that they might be qualified and capacitated for this strange and wonderfull undertaking God was pleased to indow them with many miraculous Gifts and Powers as of Prophecying speaking all sorts of Languages working of Miracles c. in order to which the Holy Ghost who is the true and alone Spirit of Prayer came down upon them in a visible and miraculous manner Which things being so for you to fetch an Argument from the Example of the Apostles either in respect of their Person Mission or extraordinary and miraculous Gifts and apply the same to your Ministers is every-whit as improper as if you should go about to prove that you or I can stop the Sun in his Course because Joshua did so E. D. I never intended by producing the Example of the Apostles to prove our Ministers equal to them as to their extraordinary gifts and graces neither do I suppose will you dare to compare the Coiners of your Liturgy or Common-prayer with those holy Men the Apostles of our Lord and Saviour F. P. I never did I onely said that the Compilers of our Liturgy were some of the most Pious and Learned men that ever England did afford E. D. They were no better than bigoted Papists F. P. How can that be when it is known that they suffered Perscution nay Martyrdom it self in the defence of the Protestant Religion and sealed and ratified the Common-prayer they had composed with their Bloud E. D. But pray Sir who gave them the power to compose the Common-prayer-book F. P. They had their Power and Authority from God and the King E. D. I shall be glad to hear you prove it F. P. That I will Sir for it is no such difficult matter as you may suppose I say therefore first that they had their power from God for they being Bishops and Governours of the Church had an unquestionable Power and Commission by virtue of their Charge and Office to redress and reform whatsoever was amiss in the Divine Service and forasmuch as in some foregoing Ages the Prayers of the Church had been corrupted and adulterated by inserting doubtfull Stories and Legends with a superfluous multiplicity of Responsals Prayers to the Blessed Virgin and other Saints Frayers for the Dead vain Repetitions Commemorations and Synodals c. they very wisely and prudently cast away all that was Popish and Superstitious retaining onely what was sound ancient and edifying and added f●●●e Prayers that were truly Apostolic●● and Primitive And besides they had a special Order and Command from King Edward VI. authorizing them so todoe E. D. I find all your Discourse comes to this that the Compilers of your Common-prayer-book onely chop'd and chang'd the Romish Liturgy and out of it with some Additions of their own patch'd up the Liturgy which is now used by the Church of England and which you do so much admire Now you know the Popish Liturgy is no other than their Mass-book which I think might to much better purpose have been quite laid aside than reform'd and patch'd up again F. P. I am not of your opinion and the Reasons that hinder me are these First Those Holy Men we are speaking of had no Power or Authority committed to them to plant or institute a new Religion but onely to reform the Abuses that were crept into the Church and the Corruptions of the pulick Worship of God which is the chiefest part of the Christian Religion now in this case it is evident that it was none of their duty or office to take away the whole publick Service or Liturgy which indeed at that time was very corrupt though not to that degree but that some good was still found amongst it but onely to change what was amiss to supply the defects of it and cast away whatsoever was corrupt or superfluous Secondly It was great wisedom in them to observe the mean between two extreams by shunning on the one hand a Spirit of bitterness and hatred against the Party they reformed from and on the other hand avoiding a sinfull compliance with the corruptions of those who were so unwilling to part with their Idolatry and Superstition And farther to illustrate my Argument I must tell you that the Reformers of our Church acted according to this commendable Maxim of Christian Charity and Moderation viz. That in love and condescention to the Church of Rome we ought not to reject any thing used by them but what is found contrary to the Word of God whereas the Reformers of your Party proceed according to this Rule That in hatred and detestation of Popery we ought not to admit the least thing the Papists make use of in their Divine Service and onely for this reason because they use it Now I would fain know of you which of these two you take to be the most Christian and Charitable method and whether the Principle our Reformers went by be not preferable to that of your Party The Reason is evident beyond dispute because our Reformers by retaining what was good and of primitive Purity in the publick Service of the Romanists and rejecting onely what was manifestly corrupt and superstitious they left a door open for them and as it were friendly invited them to leave their Adulterous Church and to enter into our Communion E. D. But pray tell me what great or good effect this Condescension did ever yet produce for I never understood that this their moderate and designing way of Reforming the Church has been a means to persuade the Papists to leave their Idolatry and Superstitions and to become Converts to their Church F. P. If I should grant you that the number of Popish Converts to our Church is not very considerable will it follow from thence that the means used for so good and charitable and End were undue or unlawfull For though God hitherto hath not been pleased to bless these good means with the greatest success that might be wish'd for yet we know not how soon he may especially considering that we had never more reason to expect the total downfall of Popery which according to outward appearance can no way so probably be brought about as by the Papists embracing the Protestant Religion Let us therefore take heed of deriding as you seem to do those lawfull moderate and Christian-like methods the Church of England hath made use to facilitate the Papists Conversion E. D. I find then you take your Common-prayer to be a lawfull moderate and Christian-like method or means to facilitate the Conversion of the Papists F. P. I do so and I question not but in due time it will prove very effectuall that way to the stopping of the mouths of all gain-sayers E. D. Ay you may look for it long enough I suppose and if by great chance it should ever prove to be an effectual means I dare say for all that