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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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of the very mouth of God himselfe And if Christ saide he came into the world not to d●stroy the law but to fulfill it by what right can the Pope who deriueth his authoritie from Christ as his substitute and deputy in the earth claime the authoritie to make that voide which God hath ordained And faine would I know of you what faultes you finde in the word of GOD that subiectes may reuolt from their Prince and take them to another And I am sure you cannot name me one for doubtlesse there can be noe greater faultes in a Prince then Idolatry and tyranny and yet wee haue expresse commaundementes of GOD from his owne mouth vnto the people of Israell for to bee obedient vnto two notorious Idolaters and triumphes An obiection of controuersie with the wicked a●swered the one by the Prophet Ieremy Chap. 27. that they should serue Nabuchadonisor the other by Christ himself that they should pay tribute vnto Cesar But ye will say that Christ saide if thy brother will not heare the Church let him bee vnto thee as an Ethnicke and Publicane or customer and that we are commaunded by Paule not to keepe company with the wicken and by Saint Iohn not to say good morrow to an heretike And now I would fayne know of you howe the Iewes did shunne an Ethnike and a publicane did they not pay tributes and customes vnto ethnike Emperours did they they not serue them in warre finally did they not doe all dueties of loyall subiectes did they not also come vnto the publicans to pay their customs and towlles although they were nor familiar with them did vsually keepe them company Againe when Sant Paule did charge the Corinthians not to keepe company with a brother that was a whoorhunter or couetous or an idolatour or euill tongued or a dunkard or a violent taker away of other mens goods and not to eate meate with any such Doe you thinke the wife that had an husband the childe a father the bondmand a Lord or master infected with any of these faultes were thereby incontinently discharged of all duety towardes them yea and bound in conscience speedily to runne away from them and neuer to doe them more seruice nor come at them I am sure ye will say no for by the canon law they are bound to abide with them being excommunicated for any other faulte then for heresy And that is a latter edition of the Popes for there is no such distinction to be found in the cōmandement of God nor his Apostles But all excommunicated and wicked persons are alike commaunded to be shunned and no difference to be put betweene the Idolater and the whooremonger So then if Christ and his Apostles did not discharge the wife the childe or bondman of their dueties towardes the excommunicated neyther did they also the subiectes of their alleageance to their prince for they be as fast tyed to their prince by a bond and lawe which onely death can vndoe as the wife is to hir husband and therefore included in this word Lex of the canonicall verse that shewes who may communicate with excommunicated persons Vtile lex humile res ignorata necesse and also aswell vnder and subiected to their soueraigne as the childe vnto his father and the bondman vnto his Lord and master and so are comprised also in the word humile of the same verse But let vs returne where we left The Pope deposed Boleslaw the king of Polen for slaying in his rage Stanislaw the Bishop of Craccow yet when Saule had without cause vniustly and tyrannically slayne Achimelech the high priest and all his whole house saue one that fortunately escaped yea priestes in number fourescore and seuen all the men women little children sucking babes oxen asses and sheepe that were in the Citie of the priestes called Nob Yet Dauid whom God had annointed king and Saul did causelesse cruelly persecute from place to place sought by all meanes to bereaue of life yet thought not himselfe discharged of his allegeance by this detestable murder of the sacred priestes of God but when hee had him twise at aduantage saued his life and tolde Abisri who desired him to dispatch the tyrante with one blowe slewe him not for who shall stretch foorth his hande against the annoynted of the Lorde and shall be innocent As sure as the Lord liueth vnlesse the Lorde shall strike him or his day shall come that he die or perish in sight God neuer be mercifull vnto me if I doe stretch forth mine hande against the annoynted of the Lorde Yee see heere a playne assertion of Dauid that subiectes are not released of their alleageance if that their princes fall to vngodlinesse and tyranny much lesse doth he allowe that euerie priuate man murder him shamefullie yea when a younge man brought Dauid newes of Saules death and presented him with Saules diademe and bracelette Dauid put him to death because he had tolde him that at the Kinges great instance and entreatie that he might not fall into the handes of his enemies who enuironed him rounde about hee beeing no Israelite but an Amalachite had killed him saying why didst thou not feare to sende thy hande that thou mightest kill the annoynted of the Lorde And againe the bloode be vpon thy heade for thy mouth hath spoken against thee saying I haue slaine the annoynted of the Lord. Wherefore seeing Dauid doth allowe no cause of reuoulte and doth thinke that the subiectes are loosed of their alleageance by no fault and wickednesse of their prince by what warrant of the worde can the Pope at his pleasure release subiectes of their alleageance And whereas we reade in the 34 of Iob that GOD doth make the hypocrite man to raigne for the sinnes of the people or as other translate it to afflict and plauge the people what a malapart parte is it of the Pope to pull the rodde out of Gods hande by violence and to chase him away whome God hath specially sente to chastice his people Neyther haue I sucked this sentence out of mine owne fingers endes but learned it of a learned greate Pope Gregorie the greate who interpreting in his moralles the late rehearsed place of Iob and alleadging vnto it the thirteenth of Osee I will giue Kinges in my furie hath these wordes Quid ergo illos nobis praesse despicimus quorum super nos regimina ex Domini furore suscepimus Why then doe we despise them to be our princes whose raignes and gouermentes ouer vs wee haue receiued from the wrath of GOD So that the Pope may not displace the good princes because they are good princes nor the euill because they are placed by GOD to punish his people And if the Canonistes holde that no man can iudge the Pope because he sitteth in the chiefest chaire Who then shall iudge the king who is saide in 2. Paralip 9. to be ordained of God to set vpon his owne throne and shall