Selected quad for the lemma: duty_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
duty_n	child_n	father_n	obedience_n	1,848	5	7.4897	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A38090	Antapologia, or, A full answer to the Apologeticall narration of Mr. Goodwin, Mr. Nye, Mr. Sympson, Mr. Burroughs, Mr. Bridge, members of the Assembly of Divines wherein is handled many of the controversies of these times, viz. ... : humbly also submitted to the honourable Houses of Parliament / by Thomas Edwards ...	Edwards, Thomas, 1599-1647.	1644 (1644)	Wing E223; ESTC R1672	272,405	322

those Congregations in all weighty matters and greater cases that fall out those precepts of obey your Elders and them that are over you reach to all the Elders as well as to those that particularly and ordinarily preach to them and however it is true such places are especially understood of them yet not of them only and alone as excluding others as your argument carried it but including others who are over them too And to answer you by your own instance given of servants obey your own governours as by vertue of that text particular servants are to obey their own Masters so by the same text each particular servant and all of them together of such a Company and Hall in the things and rules of their calling for the publike good of that Societie they are to obey and be subject to the whole Company namely the particular masters of other servants as to their own masters yea and to submit to the common Orders and good Rules of such a Hall and Corporation though their particular Masters doe not vote for but against them 3. Those Rulers who are of the Presbytery are not forraigne nor extrinsicall to the Congregations but intrinsicall and naturall as well as their particular Elders so that another without themselves doth not beare rule over them but all of them together by common consent doe rule every one which is a most mild and free forme of Church government for the proofe of which I shall not enlarge but referre you for satisfaction to what is said to this point both by the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland and by some Churches from beyond the seas in their Letters upon occasion of your Apologie 4. It is a fallacious way of reasoning from the oeconomicall relations and government of husbands over wives and fathers over children and masters over servants and their subjection and obedience to husbands c. unto the Ecclesiasticall and Politicall because it is not to speake ad idem for in each of these the way of government is different for instance in those oeconomicall relations a woman can have but one husband one man can be but her husband and one man a father and the wife and child cannot Pelinquish them di●…avow them though very bad nor deny those duties they owe them in those relations though censured by the Church but they are to obey them which yet holds not in the members of a particular Congregation to Elders and Ministers that are unworthy and excommunicated that the members must be subject to them The Royalists that argue so from that subjection and obedience which children owe their fathers to subjects subjection and obedience to Princes and the Hierarchicall men that argue from what children owe to natural parents though wicked and ungodly to what the people owe to wicked ministers are answered at large and you know what Mr Robinson and many of your way say to that Now the same will serve to answer your comparisons that the places hold not alike between the people and the Elders and the wives and their husbands Mr Baynes answers in the last page of his Diocesans Tryall that which is objected touching Pastors and Fathers That the similitude holds not in all things parents and sheapheards are absolutely parents and sheapheards be they good or evill but spirituall parents are no longer so then they doe accordingly behave themselves 5. The very instances you give of wives obey your own husbands and servants your own governours doth not therefore only tye them to civill subjection and obedience to husbands and Masters exempting them from subjection to any others but they are subject to the Magistrates in the Common-wealth and to common-Lawes notwithstanding so neither doth the Scriptures obey your Elders c. supposing the full latitude of those Scriptures were of the Elders of particular Congregations forbid or exempt men from that Ecclesiasticall subjection and obedience which concernes them as they stand in relation to the community To the third Reason hinted for your selves and against the reformed Churches that the Elders of other Congregations should have power and rule over Churches which they doe not teach and feed ordinarily by vertue of those forementioned precepts was to you a question c. I answer Suppose three or foure Congregations in one great Towne should have Ministers in common to teach and feed them ordinarily as in Holland would you in such a case yeeld to a Presbyteriall combination if you say you would then the case is determined for us and thus I judge it was in the Acts of the Apostles in Primitive Churches but if you answer you would not yeeld to such a classicall government then I reply 't is not for want of such Ministers teaching you and feeding ordinarily that you will not obey but upon some other ground and then this argument is lost Secondly I answer your ruling Elders doe not feed nor teach you ordinarily but only governe you and yet by vertue of those forementioned precepts you obey them and are subject to them so that this is no good argument against the lawfulnesse of having power and authority over those whom men teach not ordinarily for then what becomes of the Ruling Elders in the Church who are neither Pastors nor Teachers To the fourth Reason drawn from Corporations who have the power and priviledge of life and death within themselves which kind of power you would have I answer you cannot frame a good argunment from Corporations and civill power to bodies Ecclesiasticall and spirituall power and I might give you the many differences alledged by your selves between civill power and Ecclesiasticall and the different manner of dispensation but I must not enlarge here only referre you for this to Mr Robinson Mr Burroughs and Dr Ames 2. Corporations goe according to the Lawes of the Land and to their Charters agreed upon and made in Parliaments they make not themselves a Corporation nor goe not according to private rules and orders to passe sentence of death c. but are ruled though they have Officers as Major and Aldermen by the Laws of the Land and so going they may more safely have a power within themselves but your particular Congregations set up your selves without leave of Magistrates or Ministers not proceeding upon common rules of government in sentences of Excommunication c. agreed by Synods but only upon your own wills and private rules which you have fancied are laid down in Scripture 3. Corporations though they judge their members and passe sentence of life and death within themselves yet sometimes nay often in greater cases and offences their inhabitants are tried and sentences passed upon them in other Courts of Justice and that when they would proceed against them yet the matter is carried higher to be tried If you would grant this in the Corporations to your Congregations that Assemblies and Synods might judge and passe sentence upon your members as oft

are sufficiently knowne And however all these things of no other interest but a subsistance in our own land and of enjoying the ordinances of Christ and not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to set our feet on earth be held forth as specious pretences to the Parliament and Reader to perswade and to allure them yet the bottome of all this desire of a toleration in England though concealed is that there is no other place on earth where you are like to propagate your way to gaine so great a party to enjoy such full and rich Congregations and to have that respect and applause in your way as in England and in England as London and the adjacent parts or where you can have those faire hopes and probabilities of drawing so great a part of a Kingdome to your Church-way as here and where if you goe on to act as diligently and politickly as you have done in these three yeares last past and the Ministers be as generally silent and the common people of the Kingdome come a little more to understand your principles and have time to digest and consider of the great liberty and power they have thereby the rest of the Kingdome may in time come to be beholding to you for a toleration of Presbyterie if it be established which you will as soone grant if you come to have power in your hands as you will Episcopacy and Popery many of your Church-way ordinarily affirming they had rather have Episcopacie then Presbyterie and it hath been affirmed to me by a Minister of note that a Minister of the Church-way preferred Popery in this Kingdome before Presbyterie for if Popery should come in it would be but short lived but Presbyterie was like to be long lived The Arminians in the Netherlands at first desired but a toleration no more but to be permitted to enjoy in some Churches of their own their consciences with peaceablene●… but afterwards that by the connivance and favour of the Magistrates they were in some Cities and places as Amsterdam c. grown to a great number and had a great power then they would not suffer no●… tolerate the orthodox Ministers but persecuted them and some were forced to flie as in the stories of the Netherlands is at large recorded And if ever the Independents by connivance or a toleration should come to have a power and strength considerable if they serve not us so I am much deceived All Sectaries and erro●…eous spirits who are but tolerated and not owned will watch all advantages to set up their own way as chiefe and when they have a power will be impetuous and violent to effect it as the Anabaptists in Germanie were the Arminians in Holland and the Antinomians and Familists in New-England As women out of their weakenesse and feare when they have power over any are most cruell so Sectaries out of their feare least a State may one time or other cast them out and not tolerate them will upon an advantage suppresse and destroy the orthodox and stablish their own 2. As for the matter it selfe contained in the close of your booke a Toleration of Independent Churches and government the scope and last end of this Apologie whereunto tends all the artifice and fallacies in the composure of it I shall lay downe some Reasons and grounds against it I cannot stand to handle the question at large about tolerations of different Religions or of divers Sects and opinions in one and the same Kingdome this answer being already a great deale longer then I intended it I cannot now open the tearmes and premise the distinctions as distinguishing concerning the nature and kind of errors concerning the persons erring concerning the kinds and degrees of toleration and coaction c. I shall reserve the full handling of this point whether toleration be lawfull to a particular Tractate I intend upon that subject In the meane time upon occasion of what you present here to the Parliament I shall humbly submit to their considerations these following particulars 1. A Toleration of Independent Churches and government with their opinions and practise is against the Magistrates duty laid downe in Scripture but for Magistrates by good lawes to command and require obedience to the government and Reformation upon good grounds judged to be according to the word of God and so established is lawfull and their duties For the clearing of which I premise two things which I suppose must needs be granted 1. That the Magistrate is custos ac vinde●… utriusque Tabula as is confessed by all orthodox Divines that the care of Religion belongs to him and that he is to looke to it that the Church of God and the Government of it be constituted and setled according to the Word and that the people may lead a peaceable and quiet life in all godlinesse and honestie for which end Princes and Magistrates are to make Lawes for the observing of the Worship and Government of Christs Church forbidding and punishing with religious severitie those things which are practised against the Word of God but commanding what is according to it this is one of the great services they yeeld to Christ as they are Magistrates and I find Augustine and other Divines giving that sense of Psal. 2. 10 11. of Kings and Iudges serving the Lord with feare and of Deut. 17. 19. of God commanding the King to read the booke of the Law that he may learn to observe the things which are written in it not onely as private men practising these and ordering their lives according to the Word but as Kings they should order their Office by the Word not onely by living holily for so they serve God as men but as Kings and Magistrates by making Lawes for the Worship of God and prohibiting the contrary 2. That the Reformation in Worship Government c. which shall be setled and established by the Parliament is judged and taken for granted by them to be according to the minde of Christ else why have they called so many able godly and learned Divines to consult with for that purpose and stood so much for a Reformation according to the Word and why else will they establish it if there be any other more agreeable to the Word so that whatsoever other Government after all debates and Reasonings is rejected and refused must be thought not to have such a ground in the Word for if it had why was it not established and owned but comes to seeke for a Toleration and Connivance Now then by vertue of many Scriptures both in the old and new Testament the Examples of the Kings of Judah in commanding and requiring all the people to yeeld to the Reformations made by them and in particular the Spirit of God commending Iosiah for making all Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to the Covenant which he had made with God the fourth Commandement requiring of the Father of the Family that he see