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A40488 A friendly debate between Dr. Kingsman, a dissatisfied clergy-man, and Gratianus Trimmer, a neighbour minister concerning the late thanksgiving-day, the Prince's desent [sic] into England, the nobility and gentries joining with him, the acts of the honourable convention, the nature of our English government, the secret league with France, the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, &c. : with some considerations on Bishop Sanderson and Dr. Falkner about monarchy, oaths, &c. ... / by a minister of the Church of England. Kingsman, Dr.; Minister of the Church of England.; Trimmer, Gratianus. 1689 (1689) Wing F2218; ESTC R18348 69,303 83

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Protestant Countries and of our own Times and Posterity after us if we sin not away our Mercies These Things thus considered I pray give me leave to come up close to you 1. Do you think in your Conscience that James the Second did govern the Nation according to Law Did he chuse the most of his Judges to do impartial Justice Did he really design a pack'd Parliament for the good of the Protestant the Protestant Religion the Church of England and our Brethren abroad Was his daily augmented Army for our Protection and Defence o● not Did many Noble Officers and others of his Army believe it Why did not they defend and assist him then And do you hold your self bound in Allegiance to such a King Shew me such a King constituted by our Laws shew me Law for such Allegiance See the words of Sir Henry Spelman above What Legiance binds the King to and upon what condition we promise Allegiance K. But if he break with me I will keep Oath to him and be his Liege Subject T. You will If he then at this time should send an Express to you to come to him and serve him in your Person in your Purse in your Capacity with your Counsel and that against your own Native Country would you go Would you serve him in his Wars against us If not what signifies your Allegiance If you assist are you not a Traitor to God and your Countrey to whom your Allegiance is due before it is due to the King. Remember your Duty to serve the King is in God and for God and not for Popery against God so the Prayer in the Communion K. But I will not oppose his Return if he should attempt it to recover his own Lawful Inheritance and to rule his People T. If ever he should attempt to return you think it will be by Force don'd ye And do you think it will be to be a Nursing-Father to the Church and a gracious Governour over the People or will it not rather be to Revenge and Conquer and with more Curses from the Pope and Fire in his Bosom against Protestants and Fury for Popery And you will not as much as pray against him nor be delivered from him nor help to preserve our Religion and Country from Popish Tyranny without which you cannot rationally look for him if the way were never so open and easy Will you be ever able to prove a Popish King to be a Lawful King of England when you do then you will have an answer to this Argument That King who according to the Principles of his Religion and consequently the perswasion of his Conscience must endeavour to promote his Own and to root out our Religion and with it our Laws by which it is established is a King inconsistent with his Government and drives contrary to the End of it and by consequence is no King for such a Kingdom But a Popish especially a Jesuited King as they boast him to be is such a King therefore c. And will you assist and serve such a King as bound in Conscience then your Oath is vinculum iniquitatis and by it you cannot assist him but you must do Iniquity or neglect a Duty and violate the Bonds of all other Relations Can the performance of your Oath to James the late King consist with the publick Safety and Welfare of the Church and Kingdom Then non est servandum juramentum cujus Executio cum salute publicâ cum honestate bonis moribus pugnaret You a Doctor I will not English it I have neither Time nor Paper to spare It is a Rule about Oaths among others laid down by the excellent Rivet Explic. Decal Juramenti obligatio qualis Can your late King give you Protection and the Benefit of Laws If not can you think your self bound in Conscience to be his Subject and owe him Allegiance Kings are the Shields of the Earth to give Protection Therefore they are chosen of Men and given of God. That 's the Consideration that moves you to subjection if that cannot be had from Him are you not free That 's the Lige the Ligeance between the King and Subject if he cannot and that by his Fault the Bond is dissolved Who broke first he with the Kingdom or his Subjects with him Si una partium prior juramentum violaverit in re mutuò promissa altera solvitur obligatione Rivet L. cit R. 4. K. But he was Disabled he was forced by his Subjects And therefore it is not his fault that he cannot govern or protect T. He was despirited by him who cutteth off the Spirit of Princes and disabled to a Wonder of Divine Power over him Did he grant what his Subjects desired according to their Right and Duty or hath he ever since his going made an offer to return to govern by Law You know his Mind and his Engagements blind not your self Was the least Violence offered or threatned if he would stay and not begon I know who said it but doth he not wrong our King and Nobles To ease you by a Conclusion Doctor hath God wrought any Deliverance for us If not where are your Senses if he hath why will you not help us to thank God our Saviour And why will you not own Our Instrumental Saviour you will pray him in Grumbling and Withdrawing and Disobedience and omission of Duty Is that the way on 't I must beg pardon for this Liberty and do remember that if God and Man set a King and Queen to bear Rule I believe our King and Queen to be by Divine Designation and Humane Lawful Ordination I owe and hope to pay true Allegiance to them and therefore I owe none to any other King. If our King and Queen give you the Benefit of their Protection the Benefit and Comfort of the true Religion and the Peace of your Country as you may have while they have it you will be obliged in Conscience to pay Allegiance to them and you cannot pay Allegiance to two contrary Supremes if you owe to Our King and Queen you owe it not to Him that was once your King. Sir I have no pique at any particular Person to expose or displease my Design is Charity and to serve the Common-Good And if I have done any acceptable Service to God and any Neighbour I shall be glad Glory to God on High on Earth Peace and good Will towards and among Men. FINIS ERRATA PAge 3. line 5. read afraid P. 6. in T. 2d the Scripture doth constitute no perpetual Form insert no. P. 13. l. 3. dele whom and read who is wonderful in working P. 14. T. 2. dele non and read legibus solutus P. 23. Margin r. Dr. Fern. P. 25. dele Hobs in the Margin and after Pol. Sacr. Civil add c. 15. p. 125. And Answ to Hobs p. 17. begin the next Sentence The Learned Author of the Rights of the Kingdom c. is a different Sentence The
the sole Soveraignty of Power in himself and can't be controll'd or contradicted much less opposed by Force T. I do as freely acknowledg the Supremacy of the King of England according to Law and settled upon him by Law as you do and that Subjects should keep in the Bounds of Subjection and obey their Superiors for Conscience-sake I acknowledg that a mixt Monarchy is as absurd as a Compound Simple But yet I find our Monarchy to be a Regulated and not an Absolute Monarchy And if it be compounded of the three Forms of Government Monarchy Aristocracy and Democracy then it is no such Bull as to be an Errand One. That it is such a Monarchy I prove by a greater Author than that Learned Writer Look then to the Answer of King Charles I. to the XIX Propositions sent to him from the two Houses to York July 1642. The Wisdom of your Ancestors hath moulded this Government out of a Mixture of all three p. 18. And let me note to you to what the King did attribute this Constitution the saith The Wisdom and Experience of your Ancestors hath moulded this K. But when did the Wisdom of our Ancestors meet and where to mould and fashion this Government T. That I may not confound our Discourse I must first speak to the Particulars of the former Objection or Query and then come to new Matter 6. We are bound to bear Faith and true Allegiance to the King his Heirs and Successors and to defend him and them to the utmost of our Power against all Conspiracies and Attempts whatsoever that shall be made against their Persons their Crown and Dignity by reason or colour of any such Sentence c. I pray Sir let me explain my self to you concerning these things 1. We may I conceive lay down this that the Soveraignty of Power lies in the King and three Estates Of our Allegiance or in the Parliament consisting of all these jointly That the Superiority of Government is vested in the King who as he is King by Law so he is obliged to govern according to it Therefore the Power of the King is not Absolute in respect of his Subjects nor unlimited but tho the Limits of Prerogative are not set down because extraordinary Emergencies cannot be foreseen nor determined yet it is limited by Law or else it would be in some sense infinite That it is not unlimited is no new Divinity as it is no new Law. See also Dr. Ferm Conse satisfied Non largimur Regibus potestatem illimitatam infinitam ut quamlibet Religionem possint subditis pro arbitrio praescribere sed potestatem à Deo delegatam ac proinde Regulis Legis Divinae circumscriptam Nam ut in Causis Civilibus quamvis sint suprema potestate armati non possunt tamen Leges condere contra aequitatem naturam c. Rev. Dr. Ward Determin Regis in Regno suo suprema est sub Deo potestas p. 105. 3. And if the Power of Soveraigns be limited so the Obedience of Subjects is limited also for Power of Commanding and Duty of Obeying are of the same Extent 2. Allegiance is the Duty of a Subject to which he is bound by Law and Allegiance is reciprocal between the King and his Subjects Ligantia significat inde Ligantia Allegiantia Vinculum arctius inter subditum Regem utrosque invicem connectens hunc ad Protectionem justum Regimen illos ad Tributa debitam subjectionem c. Sir H. Spellman Gloss 3. The King is the formal and express Object of Allegiance as Supreme Governor but the Kingdom is the compleat Object of it yea and the ultimate Object of it under God and its Welfare and Good. And so I find in that great Author Sir Hen. Spelman v. Fidelitas a Law of St. Edward That all People ought once a Year to confederate and consolidate like sworn Brethren to defend the Kingdom against Foreigners and Enemies together with the King. By which I see the true Interest of the King and Kingdom is one and the very same but it was our unhappiness of late to find the true and united Interest divided and an Interest promoted as contrary to the Kingdom as Darkness to Light and Superstition and Idolatry to the Gospel of Christ In the Condition we are in What was to be done but what was done No Man in Conscience could adhere to the King against Religion and the Kingdom for our Obligation and Subjection is first due to God and to the King in him and for him and no otherwise as it is in the Prayer in the Communion Service If the King doth persist to act contrary to God Who can in Duty folly him or assist him Next to my Fidelity to my Heavenly Lord I owe my Fidelity to the Community of England by the Law of God and of Nature whereof I am a Member because the Community must be governed by righteous and good Laws and these Laws executed I am next obliged to that form of Government constituted and agreed unto And then lastly I am obliged to the personal Soveraign the King. My Fidelity to the Community or Kingdom under a King is due by God's Law in Nature My Fidelity to the Person of the King is by a voluntary Obligation required by a positive Law as King of England governing by Law. And my natural Allegiance to the King is to him as a King by Law and governing by Law. Judicious Mr. Lawson delivers himself thus concifely and rationally Fidelity to the Community is first due Fidelity to it under some form of Government was the second Fidelity to it under that form by King Peers and Commons was the third Fidelity unto the Person of the King is the last and presupposeth the former Whosoever understands and takes them that is the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance otherwise perverts the true meaning of them and makes them unlawful Politica Sacra Civilis c. 15. p. 125. An Answer to the Learned Author of the Rights of the Kingdom Hobs p. 17. gives us several Ancient Laws obliging the Subject to Allegiance to the Kingdom with the King in the Days of Old. 7. The Oaths of Allegiance were made to the King as a Protestant in a direct opposition to the Pope and his usurped Jurisdiction and Power And though Fidelity and Obedience is due to Kings of the Romish Faith yet how these Oaths can be taken under such a King I do not understand Except I declare what the King ought to be viz. the only Supreme Governour in his Kingdoms and Dominions and that the Pope ought not to have any Jurisdiction Ecclesiastical or Spiritual when I am sure enough the King doth own such a Jurisdiction by professing that Religion How can I swear to maintain the Prehemencies and Authorites granted or annexed to the Imperial Crown when he hath parted with the Preheminence and Authority of being supreme Governour in all Causes