perfectly consâ—mated in all blessednesse without vs which are their compaignioâ—s how shal our other bretheren do which are ioyned néerer vnto vs which do yet tâ—â—â—e for the redemption of their bodyes and the consummation of their ioy the which they cannot haue without vs and a great deale lesse then the Angels Thomas Weâ— may also conclude by the contrarie that the torâ—ents of the diuells and reprobate doe increase and that they shal be greater and more grieuous after the latter iudgement then they are at this present Theophilus Saint Péeter doth giue vs most euident witnesse writing of the wicked and reprobate after this manner howe will God spare them if he haue not spared the Angels that haue sinned but hath cast them down into hell deliuered them into chaynes of darkenesse to be kept vnto iudgement And by and by after he saith moreouer the Lorde knoweth howe to deliuer the godly out of temptation and howe to reserue the vniust vnto the day of iudgement We cannot deny but that the diuels and reprobate are alreadie in torment and but that they are alreadie drowned in the bottome of hell sith that they are reiected of God that they are in his wrath â— indignation But yet neuerthelesse by the words of saint Peter we may easely vnderstand that they doe attend and â—ariâ— for yet a certeine more grieuous iudgement gods anger more fearefull then they haue féeled But for to make thée to vnderstand more plainely that which I thinke I will expounde it vnto thée by a similitude and comparison taken of the very words of S. Peter When a malefactor hath coÌ„mitted some certein great cryme worthy of death grieuous punishment there is no doubt but y he féeleth his condempnation in his conscience assone as he hath coÌ„mitted the euil déede He hath his conscience which is his accusor for a witnesse for a iudge and for a hangeman and it can be none otherwise His conscience â—yteth and accuseth him Afterwardes he commeth to be vanquished of hys misdéedes by his owne proper witnesse which avayleth more then a thousand witnesses And after it hath vanquished hym it condempneth him And euen as it constrayneth them to witnesse against themselues so it constrayneth them to condempne themselues insomuch that although all the Angels and all the men of the worlde woulde cleare them and pronounce them to be righteous and iust yet neuerthelesse they cannot absolue and cleare themselues nor auoide their owne iudgement Now after y senteÌ„ce giuen it must be that it be put in execution and that the malefactor be deliuered into the hands of the hangeman the which he néede not to séeke farre nor out of himselfe His conscience with the rest doth yet that office the which whippeth and tormenteth him so cruelly that he cannot haue rest day nor night If he sée any talke together he thinketh they talke of hym If he sée but a leafe of a trée to wagge he thinketh that they are seriants sent for to take and carie him to prison If he thinke to sléepe and take rest he dreameth that he is in the handes of the iudge which sendeth him to the hangeman and that they doe leade him to the gallowes And in waking and sléeping he ceaseth not to imagine and thinke of hangemen â—ortures and Gybettes Wherefore the Prophete hath not saide without a cause That the wicked are like the raging Sea that cannot rest whose water â—ometh with the myre and grauell Euen so the wicked haue no peace saith the Lorde Haue we not the example verie euident in Caine and in Iudas From whence procéeded that violence of mans conscience but from GOD Which maketh hys enimyes to féele hys iudgement and his furour in such sort that they themselues cannot beare it But are constrayned to condempne them selues and despaire whiche is a certeine witnesse that there is a iudgement and â— God vnto whome we must render accompte The which we ought all to vnderstande and knowe although wée should neuer heare speaking of God nor of his holy scriptures and although we shoulde haue none other witnes but the same heré the which God hath naturally printed into the heart of euery one the which ought well to suffice vs For as saint Iohn saith if but hearts condemne vs God is greater then our harts and knoweth all things That is as much as if he had saide if we ourselues doe condemne vs may not God well condemyne vs Sith that we haue such a feare and such a horrour doeth not our heart admonish vs sufficiently that we haue a superiour and gouernour which will not suffer such thinges Sith that there is not so great a Prince not so great a Tyrant which feeleth not that hell in his conscience Although there be not a man vppon the earth aboue him of whome he may be afraide Doest thou nowe see howe the hell of the wicked beginneth alreadie in him here in 〈◊〉 worlde The which our Lorde Iesus Christ woulde not haue vs to be ignorant off saying be that beléeueth in the sonne of God hath eternall life and shall not tast of death For he is alreadie passed from death to life but he that beléeueth not in the sonne of God he is alreadie iudged and condemâ—ned Doth he not shewe vs here with the finger howe the faithfull beginneth alreadie his paradise in this worlde and the infidell and vnfaithfull hys hell Hillarius There is nothing more certeine then that which thou speakest And although we had not the witnesses of the Scriptures wee haue the witnesse of nature printed into the hearts of all which hath constrained the Poets to inuent and finde out that fayning of the furies the which we may call she diuelles They do assigne their habitation in the helles and say that they do torment the wicked and reprobate people most horribly aswell in this worlde as in the other By the which they vnderstand none other thing but the torments and assaltes of the euill conscience and that worme which dyeth not but gnaweth and deuoureth incessauntly Theophilus I doubt not But let vs sée how y â— â—el encreaseth day by day If the malefactor be alredy so much tormented before that the Iudge hath layde his handes vpon him before that he be put in prison before that he hath ben on the racke vanquished iudged and condemâ—ned Let vs thinke what torment he ought to haue beeing in prison after that his processe is made and concluded looking tarying for his sentence cruel death euery houre In what anguish thinkest thou that he is in Doest thou thinke that the horror that he hath of the looking for of the torments which are prepared for him are vnto him a great deale lesse paine then the torments and the death that hée looketh for Eusebius Truely I beléeue that there is no great difference that he dyeth so many times as he liueth houres
full resolution they will fall vppon this sence Although that Iesus Christ be dead as touching his flesh body and humanitie yet neuerthelesse he is quickened by the spirite that is to say by his eternall vertue and diuine power by the which hee is not onely risen from death but also hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh and hath tourned death into lyfe quickening by the same all those which were dead thorow sinne And to the ende that none should dispise Iesus Christ bicause that he is dead and was crucified as a vyle and an abiect person he declared that he is so dead that there is no lyfe but in his death and that none can lyue but by him and that he is not onely to day but euerlasting and that by the same spirite and diuine and eternall vertue he is already an other time come vnto the worlde and hath iudged and condempned the rebells the proude and peruerse spirits oppressed with wicked spirites which were not vnder their kéeping but did sléepe not thinking on the iudgement of god vntil such time as the floud ouerwhelmed and drowned them as he doth yet at this present by that same spyrite by the which hée Iudgeth an condempneth the world and saueth and quickeneth his elect euen as he did in the time of Noe. Hillarius It seemeth that that exposition is also a little vyolated far fetched neuerthelesse it commeth not euill to purpose but séemeth to agrée well inough to the letter of the text of S. Peter Theophilus Bicause that the place is obscure hard I dare not to define pronounce of it rashly But I would gladly put forth these expositions to that ende you may iudge of theÌ„ for to awake the spirits for to finde out some better thing Neuertheles I thinke that this héere is the simplest that is to say that S. Peter willing to shew foorth the efficacie vertu of Iesus Christ of his death and passion witnesseth that it was so great that the lyuing haue not onely felt perceiued it but the dead also vnto whom it is come But in what manner or after what sort How is it communicated vnto vs and all his giftes and graces but by his spirite and diuine vertue Euen as then by his spirite he hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh which is vnto vs spirite and lyfe and hath communicated vnto vs his vertue so hath he manifested himselfe by the same spirite vnto the deade both during their lyse and after their death For it is sayde of Abraham that he did sée the day of the Lord and reioyced If he hath then already during this mortal lyfe felt the efficacie and vertue of Iesus Christ long time before that he didde offer his eternall sacrifice wée cannot doubt but that he and all the others which were in his bosome haue felte it more fully when he did manifest himselfe more fully By this we may well vnderstand whereto this place can serue to proue Purgatory For if the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ be of such efficacie that it goeth vnto the dead what néede haue we then of Masses and Suffrages of the Priests for to comfort the dead and to apply vnto them the merits of Iesus Christ sith that none can do it but he himself by the vertue of his spirite which quickeneth the quicke and the dead Now hée calleth that manifestacion predication not that he hath preached verbally or by mouth towards the dead such as is among the lyuing but bicause that euen as by the preaching and Euangelycall ministring Iesus Christ is manifested vnto vs and doe feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion Also the spirits of the dead haue theirs but in their maner and such as apperteineth vnto them euen as we doe vnderstande that God gaue himselfe to his Angells to be knowen and to make them tast of his bountie and goodnesse but by an other meane then vnto vs bicause that their condition was contrary We must not then dreame out a Lymbe and a materiall prison and a locale descending of the spirite of Iesus Christ into hell and a preaching such as wée haue But wée must vnderstande all those things spiritually For as it is not néedfull that Iesus Christ should descend locally from heauen for to make vs feele his vertue so it is not necessary to descend into hell For the vertue of his spirite is such that it filleth heauen and earth and is spread abrode euery where Hillarius As I thinke our dreaming Theologians had very much leasure wheÌ„ they setled themselues to dispute whether the soule of Iesus Christ did suffer in the hell Amongest the which some of them are founde to bée of opinion that he did Theophilus If they had wel vnderstanded that which Iesus Christ sayd vnto the théefe This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise and how Iesus Christ descended into hell when his soule was sorrowfull and in anguish euen vnto the death and that he hath dronken vp the cup of the wrath and furor of God and hath borne his iudgement and our malediction and curse and the dampnation due vnto our sinnes insomuch that he was stroken beaten of God hath suffered death after which he descended into the sepulchre or graue they should not haue néeded againe to make the soule of Iesus Christ to descend from Paradise in which it was for to goe into hell For it is sufficiently giuen vnto the spirites of his elect to vnderstand which haue receiued consolation and vnto those of the reprobate declaringe vnto them from what goodnesse they were depriued without descending or assending Eusebius To what purpose then doth he speake of the prison and what other thing can hée vnderstand but the Lymbe of which it is also spoken in Zachery saying I haue let thy prisoners out of the pit where is no water Theophilus By the Words of Zachery the Lord giueth vs to vnderstand none other thing but that by the bleud of the alliance that he hath made with Syon he will deliuer his people that are captiue kept in the bottom of all miseries By the prisoners he vnderstandeh his people that bée in captiâ—itie by y euils he vnderstandeth a captinitie a goulse and bottome of all miserye from which it is not possible for them to come out by any meanes if God doe not delyuer them himselfe Therefore he calleth it Welles for to declare the depth yea yet without water in which one cannot swimme to the ende they may the better knowe their miserie and the grace and mercy of God towardes them When S. Peter did speake of the prison of the spirits he did it for to amplyfie the better the grace of the Gospell comparing those which wer vnder the seruitude bondage of the law vnder those shadows figures vnto those which shall be in a prison in
fall into hell Or if they vnderstand it not so wherefore do they sing in the offertory of the Masse for the dead Domine Iesu Christi c. That is to say O Lord Iesu Christ king of glory deliuer the soules of all the faithfull that dye from the paines of hell and from the déepe lake Deliuer theÌ„ from the Lions mouth least the in hell he deuour theÌ„ lest the they fal not in the obscure dark places but the S. Michel the standard bearer do represent theÌ„ into the holy light which of late thou diddest promise vnto Abraham and to his seed Thomas Mee thinkes that this is repugnant vnto that which Eusebius hath spoken before and to that which the Priests do sing saying that in hell there is no raunsome nor delyuerance And yet nenerthelesse they pray here in that oâ—fertory vnto Iesus Christ that he wil deliuer them from the paines of hell It must then needes follow that eyther their prayer is vaiue and that they demaunde a thing of God which they do very well knew to be impossible and contrary vnto his will or that there is aswel deliuerance in hell as in Purgatory and that they speake against themselues or els that hell Purgatory be al one thing Eusebius Thy disiunetiue is not good For not withstanding the commonly men take hell for the hell fire and the place of the dampned yet neuerthelesse it may bee vnderstanded more amply for that low places and cositries the estate condicion of the dead after this manner his signification shall comprehende contrine also the Purgatory as it doth in this place here Hillarius We muste then expounde it of the paines of hell that is to say of the paines of Purgatory Eusebius It cannot be vnderstanded otherwise Thomas And what shall we vnderstand by the deepe lake Eusebius The very same Thomas There is then also a lake in Purgatory Hillarius You do well Thomas to be affrayd Did you neuer here before how the priests did pay the seriage for to haue the dead passe ouer It is then necessarye the they haue their fery man Charon for to let passe repasse the soules aswel as the Panims Poets had Now if there be a Charon a fery man he caÌ„not carry ouer soules without the there is seas lakes or ryuers for to caryhis boats scyfes ships barkes gallies Thomas But I am greatly abashed wherfore wée do call those that dye in the french tongue trespasses Thinke that it was bicause that they were already passed from this life in the other But as farre as I can perceiue it is rather bicause that they haue passed ouer those infernall lakes and reuers Hillarius I doe beléeue that the Christians and true faithfull people haue called their dead trespasses signifiyng by that same that the death of the faithfull is no death but only a passage for to enter into life those which are dead in the faith of Iesus Christ according to his promises are passed from death to life And therfore they are rightly called trespasses bicause the they are already passed ouer are come vnto the port of health in which they rest in ioy and consolation w Iesus Christ their Lorde hauing escaped all the dauÌ„gers the great gculfes of the sea of this world of sinne death hell But sithence the the pope hath begun to reign in stéed of Iesus Christ the he hath take the office of Pluto the god of hel of Eacus Minos Rhadamantus and Neoptolemus the infernal iudges as a newe king hée would chauÌ„ge the laws estates habitations maÌ„ners of huing of his subiects the be dead aswel as of those y be aliue endeuoreth himselfe w all his power strength to abolish put out the laws ordinances institutions holy CanoÌ„s inuiolated decrées which Iesus Christ hath giuen aswel to the liuing as to the dead by his prophets apostles passed confirmed ratefied sealed by the arrest of the celestiall beauenly court by the great counsell wisedome of god of the holy trinitie of the father the sonne the holy ghost of all the angels archangels Saincts Sainctes patriarkes apostles Euangelists Martirs Confessors Mirgins to the end y the faithful without any other should haue place in heauen in earth in hell Theophilus He woulde do vnto Iesus Christ as the Romaine Emperors the Popes haue done many times the one against the other making frustrate boyd the which their predecessors haue made ordeined For in asmuch as they haue made Iesus Christ the first pope S. Peter the seconde I thinke the it seemeth good vnto theÌ„ the aswell they maye abrogate make boide their ordinances as they haue done those of other Popes their predecessors changing most ofceÌ„ times the that the first haue ordeyned making frustrate their counsels decrées especially sithence the time of pope Stephen who made boide al the which Formosus his predecessor had don But they do in that great wrong vnto Iesus Christ that sitheÌ„ce he is risen againe there are so many popes risen vp in his place For they wil not suffer that one should choose another whilst they are aliue or if that be done they call him antipope the is chosen in spite of their bearde and hold for scisinaticks aswel him as those that haue chosen him which are Ioyned w him They call him antipope who setteth himself against him wheÌ„ they estéeme to be the true pope eue as we set antichrist against Christ Sith theÌ„ the Iesus Christ is rise froÌ„ death he is immortal shall dye no more but shal abiee dwel eternally with his churche of which he is the only head according to y promise y hee hath made to his disciples saying beld I am with you vntill the ende of the world For asmuch also as that great heaâ—â—nly father of whom proceedeth all fatherly loue y is called y olde aged of whom Daniel speaketh off he hath giuen vnto him al iudgment power seigniory both in heauen in earth hath made him to be called by his prophet the father of the world to come Prince of peace willing y in y name of Iesus should euery knee how both of things in heauen things in earth and thinges vnder the earth I am greatly abashed froÌ„ whence this ouer boldnes rashnes should proceed to create those other popes then he sith y he is alwayes aliue y he is the Lord of y quick and of the dead and his kingdome hath nene ende Hillarius They cannot denie but that they are al Antipopes That is to say contrary and enemies to the true Hope so consequently heritickes and schismatickes For sith y Iesus Christ is the true Christ true Pope that is to say the father of y Christian Church it followeth that they are Antichrists
woemen which followed Iesus Christe from Galile vntill he was buryed willinge to anointe him in his sepulchre dyd not thinke of his resurrection but did thinke to haue founde him dead as the Angells rebuked them saying why seeke yee the liuinge amonge the dead There is no doubte but that there was yet in them humayne affection towardes the bodye of Iesus Christe as wee haue towardes the dead But to the ende that wee maye haue no more neede to dispute muche of it wylt thou bee contented if I doe alledge vnto thee Augustine agaynste Augustine To whome haddest thou rather staye eyther vppon Saincte Augustine followinge the opinion of men wythout the Scripture and speakinge doubtfullye as vncerteyne or vnto hym and other auncient Doctours wyth the holy Scripture Eusebius I doe not thincke that Sainct Augustine would speake against himselfe nor the he hath bene contrary vnto the holy Scripture nor to the auncient Doctors Theophilus Thou canst not shewe vnto mee that hee hath affirmed the Purgatorye certeynlye But I will declare vnto thee places by the whiche hee hath altogether abolyshed it Marke howe hee hath put none other Purgatorye then the bloude of Iesus Christe hee sayth speakinge of Porphyras a Platonist that hee hath not knowen Iesus Christe to bee the begynninge thorowe whose incarnation wee are purged For hee shoulde haue then acknowledged a Purgatorye And in an other place hee sayth Wee haue then the bictorye in his name which hath taken mannes fleshe and hath liued without sinne to the ende that by hym beeiâ—ge the Priest and the sacrifice we are made the remyssion of sinnes That is to saye thorowe the medyatour of God and men the man Iesus Christe who in hys owne person hath purged our sinnes and restored be agayne vnto god For men are not seperated from God but thorowe sinne for which it lyeth not in vs thorowe our owne power and strength to purge them in this lyfe but therow the mercy God thorow his clemeney not thorowe our power For that vertue whiche is called ours whatsoeuer it bee it is graunted vnto vs thorowe his goodnesse Doth hee not cleerelye shewe that the purgation of sinnes is done in this lyfe and yet not thorowe our owne righteousnesse nor vertue Holve can it then bee done in the other lyfe thorowe the vertue and merytes of an other Furthermore hee manyfestly sayth the soules of the good men after they are seperated from the body are at rest and wee muste not doubt of it but those of the wicked are punished vntyll such time as the bodyes of those doe ryse againe to eternall lyfe and of these heere to eternall death whiche is called the seconde death But is it possible to speake more cleerelye and purely of Iesus Christe and of the Purgatorye that wee haue in him then when hee sayth Thorowe his death that is to saye by one onelye and true sacrifice which hath bene offered for vs hee hath purged abolythed and put out all that that had anye saultes in vs Wherefore the hygher power and those of authoritie doe bolde and keepe vs for to bee punyshed And by his resurrection hath called vnto a newe lyfe wee which were predestyned hee hath iustified those that hee called and glorified the iustified Beholde woords very cleere And speaking of the opinion of Plato he sayth Those which are of that opinion doe thincke that after that one is deud there is no other paines then of Purgatorye for to purge sinnes Alyttlo after hee sayth Wee confesse that in this mortall life there is a certeyne Purgatory paine It seemeth that hee somewhat agreeth that the tribulations and aduersities that man suffereth in this world do serue him for a purgation of his sinnes the which yet neuerthelesse they dare not to attribute but to Iesus Christ Although that we doe commonly say of him which hath had much euil griefe in this world the he hath had heere his Purgatory For that tasteth muche of the opinion of Plato But Sainct Augustin doth not make ther meÌ„tioÌ„ of any paineâ— of purgatoy after this life but he sayth playnely that the soules of the faythfull do rest after the deathe of the bodye But what wilt thou more cléerer then when hée sayeth Some doe beleeue that those also whiche haue not abandoned the name of Christ and which haue bene baptized in hys Church and haue not belie cutte off from the same thorow anye schisme or heresie that in whatsoeuer sinnes they haue lyued in the which they shall not deface and put away thorowe penaunce nor redeemed thorow doing of almes beedes but shall perseuer and continue in them continually vntill the last daye of their lyfe shall be saued thorow the fire Although that according to the greatnesse of theire sinnes and misdéedes that fire shall bée diuturnall but not eternall But mée thincketh that those that doe beléeue this and yet neuerthelesse are catholikes are deceyued thorowe mans beneuolence For the holy Scripture if one doe looke and search in it aunswereth an other thing Thou seest héere Eusebius that be speaketh of the fire of Purgatory whatsoeuer thinge he hath spoken at other time And sayth moreouer that there is but two wayes to wit one of dampnation and an other of saluation But marke well his owne words The fayth of the catholikes thorowe the diuine authoritie doth first beleeue that there is a kingdome of heauen Secondly that there is a hell in the which euerye apostate and straunger to the fayth of Christe is punyshed Wee are altogether ignoraunt of the thirde But wée doe not finde in the holy Scriptures that there is any It seemeth to mee that hée speaketh very cléerely and that those authorities ought to suffice thee against all that that thou canst alledge of the auncient Doctors in the fauour of Purgatory Yet neuerthelesse the better to vanquish and pull thée down I wil yet shew foorth vnto thee some sentences of the most auncient Doctoures Marke what Tertulian sayth It seemeth vnto euery one that is wise which haue heard somtime spoken of the fields Ehseus that it hath some locall determination which hath bene called Abrahams bosome for to receyue the soules of his children and that the same region or countrey is not celestiall but it is yet neuer the lesse more higher then hell in which the soules of the righteous doe rest vntyll such time as the consumation of the thinges restoreth the resurrection of all men thorowe perfect rewarde I doe not prayse that which Tertulian hath determyned of the place wythout witnesse of the Scripture but I thincke it a very daungerous thinge to define of suche thinges wythout wytnesse of the same and I had rather staio my selfe vpon the sentence of sainct Augustine which sayth that it shoulde bee very good that an vncerteyne thing of which not onely the Scriptures doe make no mention of it but doe speake the contrary that
they cannot agrée together and it is impossible that the one can endure continue with the other sith that the one purgeth without money through the onely grace of God and the other is an insatiable goulfe which melteth consumeth all the golde siluer of the world neither purgeth it the sinnes but maketh all those guiltie of hell fire that séeke in it their purgation Hillarius I doe compte him to be foolish mad that had rather consume and wast all his substaunce for to buy hell then to receiue Paradise fréely which shal cost him nothing Thomas In hearinge you speake I am greatly estonied to see how men haue chaunged their nature For they do all willingly runne to the best chepe there is none but bad rather receiue good merchaundise if it coste nothinge then to buy the bad very deere or poyson for to kill in steede of bread which ought to nourish which shall be presented and offered vnto him without money Theophilus And yet neuerthelesse wée doe sée the same put in practise euery day wherein we may well know how God hath taken away the sences and vnderstanding of men who doe take such great pleasure to destroy themselues and to lose both their bodies soules and goodes For they are mad to runne after the priests for to buy death and refuse life which is presented vnto thē fréely and thanckfully by Iesus Christ Hillarius I beléeue it well behold the cause wherefore al these collyars and kitchin men who doe liue vpon that fire haue endcuoured themselues as much as lyeth in them to quench out altogether the fire of the gospel of Iesus Christ which quencheth putteth out theirs bicause that it is more vehement and more violent and consumeth it into Asshes Thomas Is it then true that it is quenched euen as you say and that there remaineth nothing whole Theophilus There remaineth yet some chamber or cabine which are not yet all burned But sithence that once the fire of Iesus Christ hath begun there to kindle it will not cease vntill such time as it hath consumed it all into Asshes for that is a fire which none can quench Hillarius I do much meruaile that they doe not all runne for water to cast vpon it Whereto serueth their holy water wherefore doe they not no we make it to shew his vertues as well as against the lightninges tempestes when they coniure them Theophilus They do cleane contrary For euery one runneth to the fire to the fagots to the brimstone to the lights to the bellowes for to make it the more to burne And they are so hot after it that there is neyther King Prince Lord Bourgis Merchaunt or Labourer whom they do not prouoke to blow their fire to cast on fagots in such sort that it is become so great that men doo sée in many places that it is like to consume those that bée aliue Thomas Can they quench it by that meanes Theophilus You are not deceiued hath the fire of men vsed to quench the fire of God No but they doe kindle it dayly more and more Hillarius I know the cause wherefore they doe it They do greatly feare least those Lutherians and heretickes should not be dampned and that they should not go into hell sith that they denie the Purgatory and that they will not enter therefore they woulde make them to féele it in this world and to purge them from their sinnes to put them in Paradise against their wils They doe well declare thereby that they differ from the Persians who will not burne the dead bodyes as the Greekes Latines do bicause they hold the fire as a God and they thinck that it séemeth that it was much vnséemely for his maiestie to defile himselfe with dead bodies and to nourish him with flesh But these héere do giue him none other meat but do sacrifice to him men as the Idolatres dyd God Moloch Pluto Saturnus and dyd nourishe them wyth mans fleshe But one maye replye vnto mée and saye that they dyd vnto him that honour to nourishe hym wyth lyue flesh Theophilus I am not so much amazed to sée them doo that as I am to sée how they make the princes lords their hangmen putting into their hands those whom they would haue to be executed Hillarius They shewe themselues to bée the successors of those who sayde vnto Pylate speaking of Iesus Christe we haue a lawe and by our lawe he ought to dye But it is not lawfull for vs to put any man to death And therefore they praye ayde of the seculer power the whiche men dare not refuse I doe thincke that many Princes Lordes doe feare least it happen vnto them as it happened vnto Nicanor the preuost of Alexander against the Bactrianians The Hircanians and Bactrianians did vsually giue vnto the dogges those that were very olde and did thincke it to be the best burying For that cause the common people nourished vp common dogs for that purpose and the riche men tame and demesticall dogges for to serue them for that purpose And therefore they called them in their language the dogges of Sepulchres or graue dogges Then when Nicanor was come vnto the Bactrianians hée endeuoured himselfe to reforme and correct that vile custome and execrable crime But he could neuer take order to reforme it but to the contrary as witnesseth sainct Hierome they did rise againste him in such sort that he had almost lost his kingdome Now if we will consider the thinges and way them well what are in these daies our Priests and Moonkes who do liue vpon carrion as the dogs of the Sepulchres doo For that cause I thincke that Rosset the Poet of Sauoy called the dogges the Chanons of mount Faucon as I haue heard him oftentimes say in his lessons Sith thē they haue vsed to eat mans flesh it is no meruaile though men do feare them that they féede them deintely as they doe in Hircania For there is not almost any great house but hath his domestical dogs besides those that are kept fed commonly in euery towne village Theophilus I doe much doubt that the same that they are afraide off will happen vnto them sith the they wil set no good order according to the power that God hath giuen vnto them I do greatly feare that in the ende those dogs wil dououre thē altogether For they haue already wel begun Hillarius Me thincks that they take the Pope for Moloch Pluto or Saturne whō men cannot appaise without sacrificing vnto them men The Pope woulde bée called our holy father but that is such a father as Saturne was who did eat his owne children if the Poets haue not lyed but yet Rea his wife hid them from him and kept them the he should not eate them But the court of Rome the papisticall Church who would be called our holy mother Church doth
only exhortatioÌ„n admâ—nitions consclatioÌ„s for the health and saluation of those that be aliue After that manner ought we to vnderstand that whiche the auncient Ecclesiasticall doctors haue written of the faythfull that dye and of the care that we ought to haue of them And if peraduenture it be so that Sainct Ambrose Crisostome Cyprian Hierome Augustine or any other the like doe séeme to haue written otherwise yet neuerthelesse they will not allow such superstition as is at this day amonge the Christians And although they should haue done it yet we are not bound to belâ—eue them without the authoritye of the Scripture We are most certaine of our side that there is no place in all the holy scripture by which one can proue that manner of dooing except one will marre and peruert the sence thereof And for to declare the same more playnly I demaund of thée what the Priestes do in the name of the dead doe they it for those whiche are in hell Eusebius Thou mayst well perceiue they doe it not For they themselues do sing that in hell there is no redemption as it is playnly declared vnto vs by the aunswer that Abraham made vnto the wicked ryche man saying that there is a greate space betwéene those whiche are in the places of blessednesse and those whiche are in hell fire vnto whom the riche cannot haue somuch only as one droppe of water for to put vpon his toungue for to coole it Theophilus Haue those who are alreadye in Paradise with the blessed any profit of their suffrages and prayers Eusebius They haue no more néede of them Theophilus And yet neuerthelesse they pray not but for those that be there and I will take none other witnes then themselues to proue it I pray thée consider and examine wel the Epistle taken out of the Reuclation of S. Iohn which they sing in their Masse for the dead marke viligently howe it agréeth with their Lugentibus in Purgatorio And how is it possible that the faithfull that dye should be rosted and tormented in Purgatorye and that they should be at rest as they sing both the one and the other speaking against themselues They sing Blessed are those which hereafter dye in our Lorde euen so saith the spirite that they do rest from their laboures But theyr workes shall follow them First they say Blessed are they which dye in the lord And who be those that dye in the Lord but the good faithfull and the Christians If they then are blessed all the other which do not dye in the fayth of our Lord are cursed Eusebius I denie it not Theophilus Wherein consisteth that blessednesse and felicitie doth not Sainct Iohn giue the reason alleaging not his authority but the authority of he spirite of God that he himselfe hath heard saying hereafter they rest from their laboures Thou doest well perceiue that they are called blessed bicause that by death they go and depart from the trauayles and wickednesse of this world and after the same doe go into eternall rest and ioy Syth then that it is so what neede they anye longer to sing Requiem eternam dona eis domine O Lord giue them eternall rest syth that they haue it alreadye For they doe not pray but for those which are dead in our Lord. Eusebius Thou interpretest the scripture for thine aduauntage and as it pleaseth thée Hillarius Eusebius is always a good Gregorianist But I do greatly feare y he shall not escape Purgatory in the ende Eusebius You shall not yet plucke it out of my handes for all that For Sainct Iohn speaketh there properly of the faithfull which haue suffred and which haue bene killed for the witnes of the truth For those haue suffred sufficiently in this world and haue had their Purgatorie and accomplisned their penaunce He speaketh not generally of all the Christians but only of the Martirs whom the greate beast hath persecuted Theophilus I agree vnto thee that the holy spirit speaketh that chiefely for the consolation of the poore that be afflicted whiche suffer persecution for the name of Iesus promising vnto them rest after the trauayles and wickednesse of this mortall life for to fortefie and strengthen them in the crosse to that end they may be more patient in tribulation and that they shoulde perseuer and continue boldlye and stedfastly vnto the ende But you can not denye but y the sentence is generall and that it comprehendeth all the faithfull For they cannot bee faithfull without bearing rightly the crosse of Iesus Christ and without hauing great paine and trauayle after whiche they looke for rest And least thou shouldest thinke that I haue alledged that place euill to the purpose I will tell thée yet farther that it maketh not onelye Purgatorie to fall downe but also the inuocation of Saincts For sith that rost from their labours is promised vnto the Saincts and that the prayers whiche the holy men make for their neighboures whilest they are in this life are comprised and contayned amongst the laboures of the sainctes we may conclude that â—fter that they haue ended the course of this mortall life and finished their combat that they rest them that laboure as well as the other For they haue no more neede but to prayse God and to giue him thankes and oughte no more to be occupied for to serue men sith that they are out of all necessitie and that they haue ended the ministry that they had amonge menne At the leastwise althoughe that it bee wée haue not in all the holy scripture example nor yét authority for to endure and léad vs to inuâ—cate them But we haue not now to debate vpon that poynt I haue onelye desired to touche the same by the waye As to the other matter touch 〈◊〉 Purgatory for to take front thee that fantasie whiche thou haue againstâ— my interpretation I will confyrme it vnto thée by the verye interpretatyou of the Priestes taken from the chiefest of the Canon of theyr Masse Marke well the Memento that they saye when they sing Masse for the dead Hillarius Peraduenture hoe will not heare thée bicause he is altayd to be excommunicatod And also helâ— daâ—e you recyte itâ— For you know verye well that it is forbidden vnder paine of excommunication to all those that bée not Priestes to reade the Canon and to recyte it Theophilus Aswell is the Alcoran of Mahomet vnder paine of death But I will not be a frayd to read it for all that if I had it For I buylde my selfe vpon S. Paul which sayth Cramine all things and kéepe that whiche is good Thomas But it is otherwise of the Canon of the Masse for it is to be feared that if the lay people shoulde heare the sacramentall wordes pronounced they woulde doe as the Priest and that thereby would come greate hurte As Clythoueus doth declare and witnes moste euidently in his Clucidatory by the example
ende that by them you shoulde satisfie for your sinnes or that you shoulde merite the kingdome of heauen and bée iustyfied For the faythfull man hath obteyned alreadye all that by the fayth of Iesus Christe whiche is our wisedome ryghteousnesse sanctification thorowe whose merite Paradise is gyuen vnto vs For that cause the holye Apostle calleth the eternall lyfe the gift of god Wherefore wée maye vnderstande that we meryte it not thorowe our good déedes but it is gyuen vs froelye thorowe Gods lyberalytie Euen as the Fathers enheritaunce is gyuen vnto the sonne not for that he hath deserued it but bycause that hée pleased hym so for that hee loued him and that hée is hys chylde and wyll gyue hym his goodes fróely Otherwyse grace shoulde bée no more grace but debte On the contrary when Saynct Paul did speako of the eternall death hée calleth it the wages of sinne declaringe thereby that man hathe well deserued it and that hée can deserue none other thinge but that that wages is due vnto hym for a recompence of the seruice that hée hathe done vnto the Diuell the Prince of this worlde euen as the wages which is payde vnto a souldyer for bearynge of weapons vnder hys Capitayne Wee 〈◊〉 then sée that the woorkes done by the chyldren of God and the seruice that the Angelles dooâ— vnto hym doe tende all vnto one ende to witte to glorifie GOD and to sanctyfie his name Euen as then the Angelles serue not GOD for to merite Paradyse of whiche they are alreadye in possession neyther for satisfaction of theire sinnes of whithe they are not entangled But onelye for the loue that they haue in GOD and the desyre of hys glorye so Gods electe doe regarde none other thinge for they are alreadye washed and purged from theire sinnes by the bloudâ— of Iesus Christ and they re hearte puryfied by the faythe in hym and thorowe the woorde that they haue hearde of hym And are already possessors of the kingdome of heaueÌ„ in hope the which is no lesse sure and certeine then if the thinge were present and that the Angels are assured of that that they haue Therefore the holy Apostle sayth that wee are saued thorowe hope and that Iesus Christ doth make vs sitte in the heauenly places And therefore when God doth chastise and cortect vs in this worlde that is as the Apostle also writeth vnto the Corinthians for to correct and chastise vs that we should not be damned wyth the worlde and the Infidels bicause that we are yet in the waye and capable of chastisment and ainendement But there is an other reason after thys lyfe héere when wee are out of the waye and néede and that wee cannot any more empayre nor amend And therefore the Lorde doth chasten vs héere as the good Father who beateth not his sonne for to haue any recompence thereby for the faulte that hée hath committed For the paine of the childe bringeth no profite vnto the Father Also he doth not beat him through rigor nor throughe mallice that hée hath to take vengeaunce of him For hée loueth him as his childe and the fatherly affection maketh him soone forget the faultes and iniuries that he hath done vnto him As it is cleerely shewed vnto vs in the Father of the prodigall childe Eusebius What hath the father then to do to chastise him Theophilus If hée knewe that he woulde neuer doe any more fault he would soone pardon him without any punishment But fearing least thorow his great patience â— gentlenesse shoulde fall agayne hee is constrained to beate and chastise him although that he doe it not willingly but it to that ende to make hym more prudent and wyse and to better aduise himselfe in time to come and that he take diligent heede not to sall againe in y fault or in any other greater The which is no more to be feared in those whome GOD hath called from this worlde Wherefore they cannot anye more rectius punishment whiche shoulde be to câ—nâ—en them as is y same of the father towards his child for to amend him But if there hée a punishment it is rather to declare the iudgement the seuerity of God towards the wicked and reprobates and to manyfest his goodnes and mercy towardes his elect As the Iudge doth condemne the traytor murtherer and other malefactors that haue deserued death not for to haue any recompence nor those vnto whom they haue done wronge and iniury For what recompence can they haue by their deathes neyther do they it for to cause them to walke in time to come more vprightly sith that they take from them their life But for to satisfie righteousnes and to mayntaine it to that end that other may take example and that they may know how auayleable it is to haue followed vertue and eschewed vice Eusebius To what purpose then doth Sainct Iohn in his reuelation say Their works do follow them what workes do follow them but the good déedes that men doe for them after their death For those that they haue done whilest they lyued went before not after Wherefore it followeth that there are some other which do profit them Theophilus Sainct Iohn speaketh it bycause that their workes do beare witnes that they are the children of god He sayth not other mens workes but theyr owne workes For as man lyueth of his owne soule and not of the soule of an other mans euen so doth the righteous man of his faith And as the righteous man lyueth of his faith not of the faith of an other euen so shal euery one be iudged according to his workes and not after those that other men shall doe For it is written Euery one shall beare his owne burthen And therefore Iesus Christ sayth by thy worde thou shalt bee iustified and by thy wordes thou shalt be condemned That is so saye thy wordes and thy workes shal beare witnes of thy heart and by them thou shalt bée iuslified that is to saye absolued declared and pronounced iust and righteous Oâ— by them thou shalt be condemâ—ned knowen and iudged worthy of death and condemnation Not that God néedeth any witnes of our workes for to know whether we are worthy of absolution or condeÌ„nation For he knoweth y hearts néedeth none other witnes but his owne But y scripture vseth such maÌ„ner of speaking for to apply it to our capacitie for to manifest declare vnto vs better the Iust IudgemeÌ„t of god which wil shew foorth y hâ—pecriâ—e of maÌ„ heart For maÌ„ how wicked soeuer his heart be he wold alwaies hide it if one put it to his own coÌ„â—câ—éce although y he do condemne it he wil not for y leaue off to aduasice brag he y le an honest man vntil such time as he he také with his wicked déed as y theefe with his steaâ—ing For he is so peruers wicked
although y be be taken with the deed he wil excuse himself And as y shameles whore is not a shamed to deny y which we see with our eyes hanole with our hands As we haue an example in Came. Although that he killed his brother and y his handes were yet all blouddy and wette with the bloud that he â—ad shed it seemeth to heare him speake that God did vnto him greate miury and wronge in asking him where he is And therefore God would vanquishe the malyce and peruersitie of mans hearte and condemne it by the workes that are manifest for to declare vnto him and to make him confesse by the fruite that he is the roote aâ—d the tree to the ende that he may not glorify himself to be the Figge the O life tree when one doth emdently shewe vnto him the thornes thistles that it hath born And euen so euery creature is constrayned to acknowledge and confâ—sse that the iudgement of God is iust and that it consisteth in all truth and equitie Now the workes y men do for vs after that wee bee dead are not ours Wherefore wee cannot saye that they follow vs For it is another matter to bee in the way and iourney and to haue already ended his iourney and to be arriued at the port whylest that we are in the course of this present life he taketh vs as a sree which yet groweth the which one may dresse and proyne for to make him beare fruite But when he is once cut downe ther is no more hope he lieth wher lie falleth he must trauayle no more afterwards In like maner may we iudge of man Whilest y he is in the way that he is in his course sight one may aide him by admonitioÌ„s entreatings other morkes of charitie which we owe y one to y other whilst y we are herein the work of god for vs to helpe the one the other to obteine win the victory But after that he hath called vs from the worke in the which he hath set vs wée must attend and looke no more but for the rewarde and Crowne of righteousenes the which the righteous Iudge shall giue vnto vs as Sainct Paul hoped for himselfe as we haue fought for him the good fight and haue fulfilled our course and haue kept the faith vnto the ende On the contrary we must looke for feare confusion and eternall death as the slougthfull seruant vnfaithfull and vngrations we haue hid away and stollen the Talent away from our Maister without bringing vnto him any profit Therefore Sainct Iohn saith Bring foorth fruites worthy of repentance that is to say thorow which you shewe foorth that truely you repent you of your sinnes and that you haue amended your euill life For the are is put vnto the roote of the tree so that euery tree whiche bringeth not foorth good fuite is hewen downe and cast in to the fire Uppon that maâ—ter Sainct Augustine did writte vnto Macedonius after this manner There is no other place for to correct and amende manners then in this life For after this life euery one shall haue that that hee hath gotteÌ„ here And in another place he saith In this world the mercy of god helpeth those y repâ—t But in y world to come repeÌ„tance profiteth not but we must riÌ„der accompt of our works Liberty of repeÌ„tance is only giuen vnto vs in this life after y we be dead there is no more licrÌ„ce of correctioÌ„ Now is y time of mercy after wards shal be the time of iudgment And in expouÌ„ding those words of Iesus Christ Hee which beleeueth not is already iudged saith after this maÌ„ner The iugâ—eiâ—eÌ„t appereth not yet but y iudgemeÌ„t is already done For y Lord knoweth who are his He knoweth those which abyde looking farryng for the crown those which abyde looking for the fire Moreouer Sainct Iohn Chusostome speaketh more plainely confirming that which I haue said in such words Prepare and make reaby thy works for the end and prepare thy self to the way and if thou haste taken any thing by violence from anye man restore it againe and make restitution and say with Zachens if I haue taken from any man by forged cauilatioÌ„ I restore him foure fould If thou art angry with any man agree with him before that thou do come vnto iudgement dispatche here al things that without let thou mayst sée that Iudictall seate All the while that wee are here in this world we haue goodly hopes but assone as we shal be gone from thence it lyeth no more in oure power to doe penaunce nor to deface and put out our sinnes For after the end of our life there is no more occasion of merites no more then there is vnto those the play at prises games to obtaine crownes and rewardes after that the combat play and prises are finished and ended For he which in this present life hath not washed away his sinnes afterwards he shal finde no consolation For in hell as it is written who shall confesse thee That is to say who shall prayse thee in the graue And by good reason For this is the time of the Theators of Combals Playes and Prises But the shal be the time of the Crownes rewards and salaryes Also let vs not thinke when we shall be come thyther that we shall haue mercy which do nothing at all wherefore we ought to haue pardon No though Abraham Noe Iob and Daniell did pray for vs Whilest then wee haue time let vs prepare for our selues great trust and assurance towards god And Sainct Hierome saith no lesse confessing that in the other world And Sainct Ambrose is of the same opinion saying Dauid required that his sinnes might bee pardoned him before that he departed out of this life For he that shall not here in this life receaue forgiuenesse of his sinnes shal not haue it in the other he shall not haue it bicause he shall not haue the power to come and attaine to the eternal life For the forgiuenes of sinnes is the eternall life Therfore saith hee pardon mee O Lorde that I may bee comforted before that I goo and shall be no more And therefore I greatly meruatle of that papisticall doctrine which is so repugnant both to the holy scriptures and to the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the Churche Sainct Cyprian hath written in the Sermon that he made of the immortalitie that the faithfull that do dye haue taken white robes and garments By which he meaneth that they are come to the beatitude and felicitie and feacheth that we muste wéepe no more for the dead Sith that they are alreadie in the estate of felicitie But me thinkes that the Priestes do not take them to bee assured of the eternall life whom they lodge in their Purgatory but that from Purgatory they may yet
vnder the name and title of them euen as Saul worshiped him vnder the name of Samuel by the meanes of his old witche Is not that a great blasphemy and sacriledge to offer consecrate vnto the diuell the bodies of men whom Iesus Christ hath dedicated and consecrated to God thorow his bloud for to bee the Temple of the holy Ghost not for to be Idols that men shoulde worship them in stede of God we may very well say that these bodyes of which Sathan is serued vnder the tytle of the relyckes of saints after the manner as he was ierued before of the Images and Idolls of the panims haue not bene well coniured by the charmes witchings crosse candells encense and holy water for to driue the Diuell from them or els the all those things were nothing worth sith that Sathan hath had such power vpon them that hée hath letted them to retourne vnto the place which God hath assigned them to wyt into the earthe out of which they came and that he hath done that that hée pretended to do about the body of Moses the which he desired to set vp for an Idoll among the people of Israel knowing that God hath forbidden Images and Idolls And there is no doubt but that he had brought it to passe if God by the ministring of his Angells had not letted him and shewed his vertue and power not thorow materiall crosses holy water candells and torches encense and lyghts and other like supersticions the which Moses had not at his buryall nor all the Patriarches Pruphetes and Apostles nor yet of Prayers Suffrages nor Sacrifices after their death and yet they were neuerthelesse delyuered from the power of the serpent Hillarius You forgette the principall you speake not of the habite of Saint Fraunces which hath yet more vertue then all that which you haue declared and spoken off if we will beléeue and giue any credite vnto the Cordeliers and Nonnes For it doth not onely driue away the diuells which are about the bodye but also it quencheth the fire of Purgatory and mitigateth the paynes especially if that he which hath clad himselfe with it doe dye vpon Saint Fraunces daye But which is more it delyuereth from eternall death as the Cordeliers doe witnesse of the king of Castilia which was delyuered bicause that being ready to dye he did put on him that holy garment dyed in the same and aswell of other Kings Quéenes of whom mention is made of them in the booke of the conformities Whrfore I esteeme the lice the most happiest creatures of all others according to the Theologie of the Cordeliers For there dyeth a great number of them within that holy habite Wherefore Fryer Lewes did no wrong in callyng them the pearles of the poore But I doe much meruayle of one thing that the Lyce are more bolder then the Diuells sith that the Diuells doe so much feare that holy habite that they dare not approche and come nighe and the Lyce lodge there at their ease I should well beléeue that if the Diuells were as fearefull as the young children that they shoulde be greatly afrayde of that habite and maske at the beginning when they did see men so wildely disguysed And I thinke that if Ortis the kings Moore had bene the firste that had dyed in that habite that they woulde haue had great feare For he was as blacke as a Diuell disguysed as a Cordelier wherefore they would haue founde the same very straunge Thomas But I am wonderfully abashed wherfore they put rather a crosse in the handes of those which dye in the habite of Saynt Fraunces then in the hands of poore simple people who are buried onely in a shéete Hillarius I can giue vnto thée none other reason but that I thinke that the same is done by the permission and prouidence of God which will that men should doe vnto them honour as they customally doe vnto the euill and wicked men when they are executed thorow Iustice vnto which in many places and countryes they make him to beare a crosse in his handes chiefely the Sorcerers and Heretickes Wherefore men doe not very great wrong vnto those Idolaters which doe put theyr affiaunce and trust in an olde rotten garment to compare them vnto the Sorcerers and Heretickes rather then to the poore simple people sith that they haue declared themselues more Infidells then the other and that they haue lesse fayth and hope in the merite of the death and passion of Iesus Christ Eusebius Wherefore doest thou speake so outragiously sith that the most honeste and wise men and which are most estéemed in this worlde haue desired to dye in that habite Theophilus So much the more oughte wée to feare moste seeing that the efficacie and strengthe of Sathan hath béene so greate that the most wysest men of the worlde and those which are accompted for good and vertuous men haue bene deceyued thorowe such opinions and are fallen into such blasphemyes the which yet those wicked Moonkes are not ashamed to vpholde and maynteyne For what blasphemy was euer greater vppon the earthe as to to attribute vnto suche a Maske the healthe and saluation of soules and to make an Idoll and newe Christ not onely of Saynt Fraunces but also of his hoode and habite Whereas in déede I doe not thinke that he was euer disguysed in such sorte and that he hath bene the author of those blasphemyes of which vnder his name and tytle all the worlde hath bene filled and poysoned thorowe the meanes and practise of those false bretheren the Cordeliers which haue bene the Trompette and Bagpipe of sathan throughout all Christendome together with theire other companions But to what ende doth that habite profite the deade It maye serue for those that bee lyuing for a gowne hose bonet and hoode for to couer and keepe them from the colde Hillarius You doe yet forgette the chiefest For it serueth also vnto the Moonkes for to shewe that they are effeminated and worthye to bee taken for woemen although that by their workes they sufficiently declare themselues not to be woemen and that men doe not call them father without good cause Yet neuerthelesse mée thinkes they are repugnaunt to the Scripture which forbiddeth men to putte on woemens rayment nor the woeman that which pertayneth vnto the man And yet neuerthelesse hée which shall consider and marke well their apparayle they are lyker woemens apparayle then mens aswell those which they commonly weare as the vestements which they doe vse in their Masses Theophilus I graunt vnto thée all that but to what ende serueth it to the dead First of all what profite can it bring vnto the soule For it cannot touch it cloathe nor couer it nor yet descende into Purgatory with it The body also goeth neither into purgatory nor into hell but is buryed in the earth vntill the day of
heare Theophilus I beléeue that that God of the Priestes defendeth hymselfe as well from the fire as hée defendeth himselfe from the myce wormes spiders when they doe eate him and that euen as they lyue of the accidents wythout the substaunce so hath the fyre burned the accidents wythout the substaunce And accordinge to the Philosophy of the scholasticall Diuines agaynst the senâ—ence of Aristotle and of all the olde Philosophers one may easely finde accidents qualities and quantities without substaunce wythout body and subiecte Yet neuerthelesse if they dyd well consider the vertue of the fyre they should be contrained to allowe mine opynion And I woulde to God that they woulde worshyppe the fire which hath the onely vertue to purge sinnes to wytte the same with which Iesus Christ baptised which is the holy Ghost Hillarius I doe also desire that they would worship that water of lyfe the which Iesus Christ hath promysed which is the same holy Ghost But they had rather make the materiall water a God of which wée may lawfully say as wée haue sayde of the fire For if they do make a God of the fire they muste in lyke manner make a Goddesse of the water to the ende they maye haue Gods and Goddesses a Vulcan a Vesta Thetis or Amphittite Leucothea or Naiades Nymphes goddesses of the waters as wel as the Panims had for many times they attribute vnto it as much vertue as to the fire sometimes more For if their water do quench put out y fire of purgatory it hath as much vertue more theÌ„ God Canopus furthermore what dyfference is there betwéene theire Aquaticall Theologye and the same of the Ibolatrous Greekes the which the Romaines haue learned of them euen as the Papistes of the auncient Romaines As wée maye iudge by that whiche Ouid hath wrytten saying Our olde men thought and did beleeue and in that hope did dwell That sinne by purging losed was and so let not to tell Greece was the first this order gaue and therewith did suppose Offenders to be rid from sinne and so let not to glose Theophilus That doctrine shoulde hée good if it referred it selfe to the purgation of our sinnes made or done by Iesus Christ and that it extended vnto his bloud But their thought is altogether otherwise Hillarius They vnderstande that of their purgations of whiche we haue spoken off and chiefly of the water Of which superstition the Panims themselues doe mocke and haue well had the iudgement to know that the same was but vanitie as wee haue already declared by the Apothegine of Diogenes And the verses of Persius a boue alledged pretend to the same as well as those héere of Ouid which I will now rehearse Ah too light credite doe they giue which doe suppose and thincke That that same fault of murther should by water be extinct Eusebius Wée are of an opinion altogether differinge from the same For wée dooe not beleeue that thorow the sprinckling of the holy water the mortall sinnes are put away but onely the veniall sinnes Theophilus They are not then defaced and taken away by the same For the sinnes are not mortall but vnto those whiche sinne vnto death and agaynste the holy Ghost and which perseuer in their sinnes withour dooing repentaunce and running vnto the mercye of god But vnto Gods elect all sinnes are veniall not by their nature but by the grace of Iesus Christ For there is no sinne be it neuer so little which of his nature is not mortall and worthy of eternall death if Iesus Christe make them not veniall and capable of pardon to those which beléeue in hym to whome there is no more condempnation Wherefore I am abaÌ„shed of your Doctors which take so much paines to purge the veniall sinnes And amongest others the sprincklyng of the holy water and that they doe allowe so muche the exorcismes and coniurations namely of Thomas of Aquin whiche yet neuerthelesse doe nothing dyffer from charmes and sorceryes But I am yet more abashed of that Canon so full of blasphemye which is taken of Pope Alexander the fift whome you accompte to bée the firste finder out and inuentour of holy water who sayth after thys manner Wée doe blesse the water sprinckled or myngled wyth salt amonge the people to this ende that all béeing sprinckled therewyth shoulde bée sanctified and puryfied the which thinge wée commaunde all Priestes to doe so For it the asshes of a younge Heyfer béeinge sprinckeled vppon the people doe sanctifie and make them cleane by a stronger reason the water béeinge mingled wyth salte and hallowed wyth diuine praiers doth sanctifie and make them cleane And if the salte béeinge cast in the water by the Prophet Eliseus hath healed and hoplen the barrennesse thereoff howe much more the water béeinge hallowed wyth diuine prayers doth take awaye the sterrilitie of hamayne thynges and sanctyfieth and purgeth the filthinesse and multiplyeth and encreaseth the other goodes and putteth awaye the assaultes of the Diuell and defendeth men from fantasies O Lorde God what greater blasphemye can one heare is not that to tourne all the worde of God vpsyde downe and to ouerthrowe all the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ That which the holy Apostle attributeth vnto the death and bloud of Iesus Christe is it not héere altogether most euidentlye giuen vnto the salte and water For in stéede that the Apostle sayth If the bloude of Dren and of Goats and the asshes of an Heyfer when it was sprinckeled puryfied the vncleane as touching the purifying of the flesh Nowe much more shall the bloud of Christe whiche thorowe the eternall spyrite offered himselfe wythout spotte to GOD purge your consciences from dead woorks for to serue the liuing God In stéede that the Apostle sayth the bloud of Iesus Christ those héere doe put the salt the water But I wyll argue and reason after an other sorte agaynst Alexander If the asshes of an Heyfer and the holy water that they doe make by the ordinaunce and commaundement of God cannot purge the conscience and can scrue but for a certeyne carnall purification for to kéepe certeyne discipline in the Iewish Churche and to prefigurate the true purgation which by the bloud of Iesus Christe ought to be in the Christian Churche but it was necessary that the onely sonne of God shoulde shed out his owne bloud which onely hath that vertue how the salt the salted water coniured by the priests without hauing either law commaundement or promise of God do it better Hillarius I should haue ben greatly ashamed to haue stayed so long vpon those vaine chidish ceremonies but that I did sée that the most wisest and the most greatest Doctors haue bene abused and deceiued are fallen into so many execrable blasphemies Thomas How hath y ben possible If it be so as you say I am greatly abashed how y
and minutes Theophilus Thou séest howe hée is already iudged and yet hée is not He is sufficiently iudged and condemned as to himselfe sith that he hath his conscience his confession his witnesse and his processe against himselfe and that he accompteth himselfe alredy as dead But neuerthelesse there is yet a more greater horror to be brought to iudgemeÌ„t to heare the sentence of his Iudge to be condemned and executed openly notwithstanding that he is already sufficiently condemned being in the prison yet neuertheles the Iudge must pronounce openly his last sentence that his iudgement be put in execution As much may wée say of the Diuels and reprobate Whilest that the wicked doe liue héere in this worlde they are lyke vnto malefactors before that they are apprehended and taken When God calleth them from this worlde hée cyteth them before hym â—or to appeare in iudgement And they are as though they were cast in prison lookinge for their latter sentence which shall bee giuen them in that great â—aye in which all processe all causes and appeales shall ende Beholde the cause wherefore Sainct Peter maketh mention of the bondes and chaines with which GOD bindeth y diuels which he hath reserued to his iudgemeÌ„t vsing humaine and materiall comparisons for to declare vnto vs y heauenly spirituall things That is the cause wherefore the wicked spirites doe pray vnto Iesus Christ that hée will not sende them into the déepe complaininge and lamentinge bicause that they did féele by his comming their iudgement to approch nigh And therefore they cried O Iesu thou sonne of Dauid art thou come hether to torment vs before our time be come We cannot doubt but that they were already tormented before as the malefactor which is in the â—â—ockes and chaines But they haue dreadful feare when they do sée their Iudge and that they doe féele their last sentence to drawe nigh Thomas It is to be meruailed at how the one of the matters bringeth in the other and giueth vnderstandinge of it Thou hast deliuered me from one great doubt thou hast instructed me how I ought to aunswere vnto a very hard question the which was propunded vnto me not long a goe that is to say If after that the soule is seperated from the body whether y it goeth straight way into Paradise or into hell For if it goeth into Paradise or into hell it seemeth that the iudgement is alredy done that we must tary no longer for it or if we ought to looke and tary for an other that y soules of the faithfull or vnfaythfull haue not yet a place assigned vnto them for to receyue felicitie or malediction And therefore some doe saye that they sleepe vntill that great iourney But thou hast taken from mée the doubt and hast satisfied mee thorowly Theophilus Wee must not bee abashed althoughe those that sleepe doe dreame But we ought rather to bee abashed to see those that be awake to dreame and to beleeue and giue credite vnto the dreames of the sleepers For if it were so the woorkes of God agaynst their nature should rather diminish then increase and thâ— faythfull ought more to feare the corporall de 〈◊〉 then thâ— vnfaythfull For by the death the vnfaythfull should bée at rest and the faythfull shoulde bée depriued from that portion of the eternall felicitie the which they haue alredy tasted off in this world the which they ought to haue mor amply after that they be delyuered from the prison of this mortall body I beléeue most assureâ—ly that if Sainct Paul had thought that hée must haue slepte so longe 〈◊〉 in bodye and soule after his decease wythout hauing more â—â—â—ple fruition of the heauenly goodnesse and ioyes then hée had in this worlde that hée would neuer haue sayde What to choose I wotto not I am constrayned of two thinges I desire to be loosed and to bee wyth Christ which thing is best of all Neuerthelesse to abyde in the fleshe is more néedfull for you For in stéede to receyue more greater goodnesse as hée desired hée was â—â—mpayred and made worse and that portion of the heauenlye goodnesse that hée had already tasted off lyuing in thys bodye was better for him then to bée altogether spoyled of it and to sléepe beeing insensible as a stone two or thrée thousande yeares Hillarius Cycero was but a Panim and an heathen man who was not very certeine nor assured of the eternall lyfe nor perfectly resolued of the immortalytie of the soules but yet neuerthelesse hee sayth that he would not lyue nyntie yeares in such sorte that after that he had depassed thrée score yeares hée shoulde sléepe the residue of nentie yeares But whiche is more hée addeth is that matter the Hogges woulde not desyre that muche lesse I By that accompte hée esteemeth the lyfe of Hogs better then that of man all the whyle as hée abydeth a sléepe bycause that the sleeper is an Image of death the whiche alwayes representeth hymselfe in sléeping Theophilus And therefore I dooe conclude that notwithstandinge that the Lorde by hys prouydence hath constituted and appointed that the bodyes doe sléepe in the earth as in their hedde vntyll the resurrectyon that the number of their bretheren shal be fulfilled yet neuertheles the faithful nor the vnfaithfull neuer are without their Paradise their hell the which the more as they doe approch to their consummation ende so much y more doe they encrease augment vntill such time as they are come vntill the latter degrée of felicitâ—e or infelicitie beneâ—iction or malediction Thomas After the same manner as thou procéedest thou wilt leaue vs neither Lymbe nor Purgatory Theophilus As touching the Lymbe if one doe take it for the bosome of Abraham and the condition of the â—uncient fathers which haue bene before the comming of Iesus Christ I will not much dispute of the wordes if we agrée in the thing I am well contented to confesse that the condition of the auncientes as well those that bée lining as those that bée dead compared vnto ours in respect of the same may be estéemed as a prison in price of a palaice If we doe beholde the shadowes and figures vnder whose darknesse they haue bene deteyned and kept in respect of vs and the seruitude and bondage of the Mosaicall lawe vsinge suche comparisons as Sainct Paul who compareth all this auncient people vnto young children which are vnder their Tutor and Master and vnto seruauntes which are vnder the feare of their Master in comparison of the Christian people the which hée compaseth vnto the true natural perfect children which are already out of boÌ„dage gouernment saying that they haue not receiued y spirit of bondage feare but the spirit of adoption of libertie Vpon which we ought to note y the Apostle denieth not simply but that those good auncient fathers haue had the same spirit of
The which many Theologians doe expounde it of the fire of purgatory by the which the soules must first passe for to be purged before that they can enter into the celestiall rest To which agréeth very well that which saint Paul writeth to the Corinthians saying For other foundation can no man â—ay then that which is layde which is Iesus Christ And if any man bylde vpon this foundacion gold siluer precious stones tymber hay or stubble euery mans worke shall appeare For the day shall declare it and it shal be shewed in fire And the fire shall trie euery mans worke what it is If any mans worke that he hath buylt vpon byde he shall receiue a rewarde If any mannes worke burne be shall suffer losse but he shal be safe himselfe neuerthelesse yet as it were thorowe fire What fire can we here vnderstand then that of purgatory which purgeth wherefore one is sauid by the same The which we cannot vnderstand of y same of hel from which none can be deliuered nor consequently saued What aunswerest thou to that I do here breake a lyttle the order that I had thought to haue kept do leape from the Psalter vnto the Epistles of saint Paul But it is bâ—cause that the matters are like and that the one of the pointes may the better be discussed and opened with the other For we cannot vnderstand that fire thorowe which one goeth and passeth but of the same of which saint Paule speaketh by the which one is saued For none can passe from the same of hell but it kéepeth and holdeth fast all that that commeth to it Declare and expound vnto me these two places and afterwards I will go straite way to the newe Testament and will kéepe order as I haue saide Theophilus As touching the place of the Psalmes it is moste cleare that in that Psalme the Prophete speaketh of the tyrannye and oppression and of the greate afflictions and aduersities which the people of god haue suffered from which God hath deliuered them And the better to comprehend all in a summe the great euills and daungers in which that people hath beene drowned and plunged he speaketh it in the person of him wée are come vnto the fire and water and thou hast ledde vs by them He vseth commonly the comparison of the fire and water bicause that there is nothing which sooner will kill dispatch a man then the fire and water when they haue once power ouer him And therefore they are many times taken in the holy scriptures for the temptations persecutions passions daungers deathes and iudgement of God by the which all is examined proued and tryed as by the fire and water and there is none that can escape if the Lorde do not delyuer and drawe him from it as it is here spoken afterwardes As touching the place of Saint Paul he pretended an other thing then to the fire of Purgatory as it is easie to know by his owne wordes Wherefore I doe make thée thine owne iudge of the cause I demaunde of thee first whether thou art of an opinion that it behoueth that all the holy Prophets Apostles and Martyrs do passe by or thorowe that fire of Purgatory Eusebius Noe. Hillarius Those which alledge that place for to proue the Purgatorie dare not to confesse that For they magnifie and extoll so much the merittes of Saints that they haue made a treasure in their Church of those which they haue of superaboundance the which they do vaunt themselues to distribute vnto others Theophilus Neuertheles the Apostle speaketh in that place of the principallest members of the church to wit of the Prophets Apostles Euangelists Doctors Preachers and consequently of all those which do edifie by their doctrine whom he calleth masons and buylders He saith that euery ones worke shall passe by the fire and that the workeman also shal be examined by the same Wherfore either you shall be constrayned to confesse that that fire cannot be vnderstanded of the same of Purgatorye or that there is neither Saint nor Saintes but is compelled to passe by the same for to proue trye his worke sith that he excepteth none But saith plainly that euery mans shal be tryed by the fire The which thing saint Augustine was not ignorant off but vseth the same reason against those which would mainteine by those words of the Apostle that those which beléeue in Iesus Christ shal be all saued howe wicked a lyfe so euer they haue lyued and buylded vppon the foundation which is Iesus Christ prouided that they had not altogether abandoned and forsaken the foundation He taketh not that fire for that of Purgatory But for the tribulations aduersities and persecutions of this worlde Although that some wil say that the like is done yet in the other world he saith that he will not repunge their opinion the which as he saith may be true But yet neuerthelesse he dareth not to affirme it but expoundeth that fire of the tribulations of this worlde here Theophilacte who almost in all his commentaries hath followed Chrisostome notwithstanding that he is not of the most auncientes and that hée hath written sithence that the church hath beene verye much marred and spoyled and that already that fire of Purgatorye was veâ—ye muche kindeled yet neuerthelesse hée made here no mention at all not of one onely sillable But taketh that fire for the same of Hell saying that the sinner shal be saued that is to say that he shal be reserued whole and entire for to burne in the fire and to be punished perpetually But for to come to the true and more cleare vnderstanding of those wordes Saint Paul meaneth here briesely that all buylding all doctrine and workes buylded and inuented without the word of God shall turne into smoke and vanish away altogether without being able to abide and continue firme notwithstanding that all that shal be builded vppon the true foundation which is Christ who cannot beare vppe any buylding if it be not pure gold siluer pearles and precious stones taken from his worde which is more pure then the gold and siluer fined and tryed seuen times And therefore the Apostle vseth here a metaphore translation and comparison For euen as he compareth the pure doctrine of y gospel to the gold siluer precious stones which cannot be consumed by the fire but are by the same tryed and doe appeare more faire and cleane So he compareth the doctrines dreamed and inuenâ—ed by the braine of man vnto wood hay chaffe and stubble and by good right For euen as those thinges cannot abide the fire but are consumed and perished assone as they féele it so in lyke manner shall mens doctrines perish and cannot abyde and continewe firme when they shall come to the touchstone It happeneth vnto vs oftentimes that we delyte and please our selues in our owne workes and wée thinke that we haue made a
many do affirme by the commaundement of his owne sonne who secretly sent vnto him the hangman And therfore for that he dyed excommunicated hée was not buryed in the holy ground vntil that he was absolued and deliuered from his excoÌ„municating after his death by y pope by y meanes of which absolution hée was caried to Spire to the sepulchre of his fathers Wilt thou now deny that the pope hath not more power then the Saintes that he is not greater Lord then Iesus Christ asmuch to be feared or rather more then God For Iesus Christ hath said witnessed â—â—â—rely that his kingdome is not of this world But the Pope will haue it both in this world and in the other Furthermore he admonisheth vs not to feare those which can but onely kill the body and do no more but let vs feare him onely which is able to destroye both body and soule and to cast them into hell Sith then that the Pope attributeth vnto himselfe such power that after that y he hath killed the bodyes he persecuteth stil the soules after the body is dead and excommunicateth the dead and sendeth them into hell who will deny that he is not God and that he may not vse the authoritie of his keyes as well towardes the dead as towards the liuing And that his buls and pardons doe not extend and stretch foorth vnto the dead and to the soules of Purgatory As it appeareth by the doing of Pope Sixtus the fourth Innocent the eight Pascale the fift Calistus and a great many other Popes which haue giuen full remission by their buls and indulgences both to the quicke and the dead And oftentimes for small causes As for to goe and visite a certeine Chappell to make a certeine voyage and other like matters But vpon condition that he haue alwayes ready money And the better to witnesse that Popish deitie Pope Boniface the eight would not haue his Iubile among the Christians as God had it amonge the Israelites but of an other sort For God ordeined the yeare of the great Iubile from fiftie yeares to fiftie yeares for to comfort the poore people for to render and restore the wages and possessions vnto the poore that are in debt for to deliuer the poore bondmen out of seruitude bondage and for to prefigure and foreshew the yeare of grace and the deliuerance liberty which Iesus Christ ought to bring vnto the Christian people according to the prophesie of Esay and of the other prophets But the Pope Boniface in the yeare 1300 as if Iesus Christ was not come and that he had not by his comming declared vnto vs the yeare of y great Iubile which shall indure vntill the ende of the worlde by the which we are affranchised froÌ„ the serâ—tude of sinne death diuell and of hell as putting himselfe in the place of Iesus Christ hath constituteâ— his Iubile by the which he hath promised full remission of sinnes vnto all those which will come visite at Rome the Chuâ—ch of Saint Peter and of Saint Paul And hath commaunded that it should be alwayes celebrated from an hundreth yeares vnto an hundreth yeares For he feareth least the olde custome of the auncient Panims should in succession of time be altogether abolished Thomas What custome Hillarius They haue accustomed to play in the honor of their Gods iests histories and diuers other playes which they do call seculer playes bicause they do not celebrate it but from an hundreth to an hundreth yeares And therefore the Heraldes doe crye which declare and publish them Come sée the games the which none of you shal neuer se any more Eusebius But Boniface hath done cleane contrary to that y thou sayest For he hath constituted the Iubile for to abolish the memory of those Panish plaies Hillarius He hath chaunged playes into playes and those which profited him nothing at all he hath chaunged theÌ„ into others more profitable for him But the other Popes which came afterwards seing and perceiuing that that Iubile was too long for them and that they could not haue so good a part for their pray haue abrogated and made shorter the time And therefore Pope Clement the sixt hath remitted it froÌ„ 50. years to 50. years And after him Pope Sextus the fourth who hath deiâ—ied and put among the saints S. Bonauenture hath agayne remitted it from xxv yeares to xxv years and hath celebrated the first in the yeare 1475. Afterwards Alexander the sixt who was pope in the yeare 1500. following the example of Sextus hath yet better enlarged that Iubile For â—e hath not onely held kept it at Rome but hath so enlarged it thorowout all Christendome that there remayneth almost no citie village nor parish but that he hath made them pâ—rtaâ—ers of it Thomas They may then bée well called Gods liuetenaunts in earth For sith that they do it 〈◊〉 y â— â—â—â—t Iesus Christ is well at leasure He â—ught to haue no great care neither for the quicke nor for the dead sith that he hath such liuetenauntes we shall bée compelled to chaunge our Credo and whereas in the same we consesse that he shall come from heauen for to be the Iudge of the quicke and the dead we must giue that title vnto the Pope Hillarius A good Sophister wil easily absolue thy doubt For wee confesse that Iesus Christ shall come at the time appointed Wherefore they will conclude that Iesus Christ is not yet really and in euery déede Iudge of the quicke and of the dead but that he shal be Or if thou wilt that I doe tell thée in their language That he is Iudge Non actu sed habitu aptitudine but that the Pope is not onely in power remote future but actu in potentra propinqua propinquissima that is to say of act dâ—ede worke and power néere and present Thomas Beholve a goodly solution In the meane while then Iesus Christ shal rest and the Pope shall docâ—all Theophiluâ— I am abashed if their buls indulgences pardons haue such power How Gregory hath passed them ouer without making any mencion of them when he comprehended all the meanes by which the liuing might comfort the soules of purgatory For hée did put aâ—d declare â—nt foure and touched not one word of the buls and pardons But there is yet an other pointe that which y doctor Hostiensis which is of great reputatioÌ„ among the papises was not of opinion that the pope can doe such thinges by his pardons and indulgences but hath holden the contrary â—ea and the other doctors as Bonauenture Thomas of Aquin Alexander of Ales Giles Dâ—rand Richard Peter of Tarentaisâ— and many other like hauâ— had sometime the thing in doubt and haue onely disputed of it as of an opinion afterwardes haue taken vpon them baldnesse to define vpon it and to giue their sentence as if they were
rest except that sometimes those lyttle varlets and lockesmithes doe picke the locke and the dore of the great loksmith and great treasurer he knowing nothing thereoff and that he be not therewithall content although that vnder his name and title they streth foorth their power as séemeth good vnto them and doe forge keyes bulles and pardons as many as they lyst and alwaies at the costs of the poore people Now the great lockesmith hath no lymit but that he hath alwaies reasonable cause for to giue buls and pardons as many as one woulde so that money doe come or otherwise he will suffer the poore soules to be rosted and tormented in Purgatory as long as the world shall continue for want of one leafe of paper or parchment with a lyttle waxe and leade As concerning the others which haue the daies limitted that they may giue pardons I haue a certeine doubt the which I would that I were resolued of it by thée Eusebius For sith that the one hath power to giue two or thrée thousand an other two or thrée hundreth an other an hundreth fiftie fortie thirtie or twentie either more or lesse I would gladly know of thée what horologes clocks what quadrans they haue in purgary for to measure those dayes there For sith that there is no sun moone nor stars what daies what yeres can they haue For the time is taken of the morning of the heauen of the course of the sunne But those which are in purgatory haue nothing of al this Wherfore I cannot comprehend what yeres what months dayes houres they can haue whether they be very long or short As far as I can imagine by an exāple which Antonius Florentin reciteth in his sum the daies ought ther to be meruailous lōg For he saith that an Angell caryed thether a soule of a man to whome hée promised that it shoulde tary there but an houre And as soone as that Angell did come agayne to see that soule it did begin to crye out vpon him and to call him lyer deceiuer and traytor Thomas To what purpose Hillarius It sayd vnto him Thou hast promised me that I should be but an houre and I haue bene heere already more then an hundreth yeres But the Angel aunswered vnto him There wanteth a great many my friende For thou hast not yet taryed a quarter of an houre Wherefore I doe conclude that it must needes be that the dayes and yeares be there very long sith that a quarter of an houre is there compared to a hundreth or thousande yeares of ours or els that the fire is there meruaylous hotte and that the time continueth long to the poore soules Eusebius I will tell thée as touching the pardons it hath bene long time sithence that many people doe know that there is in them great abuses Wherefore I will not much breake my braynes to maynteine them Theophilus I doe also iudge it lost time to speake of such abuse if I did not sée that sithence the time of Gregory so many people to haue bene abused that so many great Doctors which are most estéemed amongst the Sophisters and Schoolemen haue written of it and haue confirmed it so assuredly Hillarius I know that thou doest beginne already Eusebius to agree with vs I beléeue that thou art of this opinion that the Pope ought to let the dead rest without reigning ouer them sith that they haue more power ouer the Pope then the Pope ouer them as I will proue it by an example taken from the Autentike booke which is intituled the conformities of Saint Fraunces For I haue neuer read that the Pope hath raysed to lyfe any dead person and that he came to aunswere before him of all those whom he hath cyted condempned absolued or excommunicated But that booke doth witnesse manifestly that Fryer Walter a Cordelier and Bishop of Poytiers hath caused to be cyted after his death by a Cedule Pope Clement the firt for to appeare before the eternall Iudge bicause that he had vniustly deposed him from his office Thomas And did the Pope appeare there by vertue of that Cytacion Hillarius If the booke lye not that was no iest For at the verye same daye which was prescribed vnto him the Pope dyed of a sodeyne death and departed sodeinely for to goe and aunswere there What sayest thou by this Eusebius If this history be false it is a great dishonor for the Cardeliers who do make great accompt of that booke and doe holde it to be very pretious among them as a relicke and reuelation And for the Pope also which hath confirmed the order of saint Fraunces and of the foure Mendicants I know not what good meanes we may héere finde for to maynteine that buylding and the honour and authoritie both of the one and of the other For sith that the Pope hath confirmed the order of Saint Fraunces the order of saint Fraunces is buylded and staied vppon the Pope wherefore when the Pope shall fall which is the stone and foundation of that Church and of that buylding also shall fall the buylding the order and the rule of the Mendicants Now we cannot deny but that example doth ruinate ouerthrow the Pope all his power I do not dispute whether that the history be true or false For I beléeue that is as true as it is true that the Pope is God saint Fraunces conformable agréeing to Iesus Christ as that booke ful of blasphemies enforceth it selfe to proue it But I consider onely that sith that the Cordeliers haue written such an history do maynteine it by their bookes that they doe abate asmuch the authoritie and power of the Pope as the Pope doth confirme their rule and order For how can this witnesse agrée with this proposition The Pope cannot erre And with the exposition which Eccius and his lyke doe make of those words Thou arte Peter and vppon that rocke I will buylde my congregation and the gates of hell shall not preuayle agaynst it If the Pope be that rocke or stone and that stone is fallen it must néedes be that all the Popish church doe fall with it and the orders of the foure Mendicants which are his foure Euangelysts and his principall pillers And so by that meanes the Cordeliers whome the Pope hath made doe vnmake the Pope which hath made them and the creature vnmaketh his creator and the creator his creatures Theophilus It chaunced to them as to the Madianits which destroyed themselues the one the other with their owne weapons when they heard the sound of the trompets and pitchers of the army of Gedeon and saw the lyght of his torches So in lyke manner sith that Iesus Christ our true Gedeon hath put the trompets of his gospell into the handes of his lyttle army the which by vertue of his holy spirite he maketh to sounde euen vnto the endes of the