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A00793 The answere vnto the nine points of controuersy, proposed by our late soueraygne (of famous memory) vnto M. Fisher of the Society of Iesus And the reioynder vnto the reply of D. Francis VVhite minister. With the picture of the sayd minister, or censure of his writings prefixed. Fisher, John, 1569-1641.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649. 1626 (1626) STC 10911; ESTC S102112 538,202 656

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vnto men through Gods only mercy but by merit of Good workes done by the power of grace by workes I say so good and gracious as God may according to them giue eternall life as a crowne proceeding as a iust Iudge as the Scripture teacheth 2. Tim. 4.8 and in a thousand other places In the same manner the remission of the stayne of mortall sinne of the eternall guilt purchased by the death of Christ is applyed vnto particular persons by meere grace by vertue of the Sacraments and the sinners humble preparation to receaue the same But the releasement of Tēporall punishment reserued is not giuen of meere mercy but penitents being now Gods Children after the gracious pardon of the sinne eternall guilt must to obtaine full remission do fructus dignos poenitentiae Matth. 3.8 Luc. 3.8 condigne workes of pennance satisfactions compensations iust worthy condigne equall vnto the quantity of the reserued sinne or penalty as hath been proued by the Fathers Hence as eternall Glory though it be an effect of Christs merits only yet is it not giuē but vnto such works as God may as a iust Iudge reward therewith so likewise remissiō of Temporal payne though purchased immediatly by the merits of Christ only yet is not applyed vnto the penitent Saynts without satisfaction equall condigne eyther done by the penitent himselfe or applyed vnto him out of the superabundant satisfactions of others by the vertue of Communion of Saynts Minister pag. 567. Daniel a sanctifyed person a Prophet able to communicate his satisfactions praying for the remission of the eternall and temporall guilt of sin presents not his owne satisfactions to God nor yet the super abundant merits and satisfactions of any Patriarkes but resteth wholly vpon the free mercy of God and the future satisfafactions of the Messias to come Daniel 9.7 Answere First your argument Daniel in this prayer did not offer vnto God the superabundant satisfactions of Saynts Ergo they may not be offered is idle For though there be superabundant satisfactions of Saynts yet it is not necessary that in euery prayer we obsecrate God by them Secondly you cannot proue that Daniel did not offer superabundant Saintly satisfactions If you say the Scripture doth not mention any such oblation and therfore he made no such oblation your argumēt is reproued by your own assertion Your selfe say that Daniel did obsecrate God not only by his mercies but also by the future satisfaction of the Messias to come and yet these future satisfactions be not mentioned by the Scripture as any part of his prayer but only Gods mercyes not for our owne righteousnes but for thy great mercyes Why then may not we say Daniel alleadged the superabundant satisfactions of Saynts though the Scripture make not mention that he did Thirdly no doubt Daniell was of the same Religion that the three Children his companions were who praying for the remission of their sinnes and of their whole people offered vnto God the merits of the Patriarkes saying For Abraham thy beloued for Isaac thy seruant for Israel thine holy One. Daniel 3.35 The Minister pag 567. lin 23. being angry at the Iesuit that he doth so sleight the Protestant arguments in this poynt sayth If the Iesuit be so rigide as to admit no argument on our part which may receaue any colourable answer I intreate him to deliuer so much as one probable Argument I will not require a Demonstration that the Roman Bishops haue power ouer the soules of Purgatory Answer When you shal find in the Iesuits writings that the Pope hath power ouer the soules of Purgatory or can by way of authority dispose of thē I wil promise you that he shal bring ten thousand demōstrations in proofe thereof The meane while the world may see your vanity desire to delude them You know that the Iesuit can bring euident proofes for euery point of his Religion and therfore you charge him to prooue what is no part of his fayth to bring probable arguments for that doctrine which he doth not hold as probable to wit that the Pope can by way of power and authority deliuer soules out of Purgatory The Pope by the power of his Keyes may grant pardon vnto the liuing out of the treasury of Christ his satisfaction and the satisfactions of the liuing may be applyed to releeue the dead as the Fathers most cleerly and vniformely teach But the Keyes of Peter can only bind and loose vpon earth and absolue from sinne and penalty the liuing Ministers when they dispute with Catholikes be like vnto a man that sitteth on thornes so pricked and vrged with the euidencyes of the present argumēts as they would fayne be remoouing to some other Controuersy they care not to what Thus you in this place are so galled to see your vanity displayed by the Iesuit as you wish your selfe euen in Purgatory to be rid of the Iesuits vrging pag. 563. lin 23. I dare say had his Maiesty proposed the question Whether some soules be purged by Temporall payne after this life their state being releeuable by the suffrages of the liuing the Iesuit would haue so scorched your Infidelity with the cleere testimonyes of Scriptures and Fathers as you would haue runne as fast from Purgatory as you now would fayne be in it Whether the Pope haue authority in Purgatory or no you need not greatly care being sure belieuing as you do neuer to come thither nor after death within the precincts of Peters Dominion who beares the keyes of the Kingdome of heauen No doubt you are to fall into a lower place except you repent of that heauy sinne so cleerly discouered in this your Reply to impugne known truths to falsify our Authors of purpose to make the doctrine of the Church seeme odious Of which damnable and hardly remissible crime I beseech sweet Iesus of his infinit mercy to giue you grace to be purged in this present life that so there may be some hope you may be saued at the least by Purgatory in the next not for eternall but only temporall Punishment (*) The Ministers rayling Arguments against the former doctrine censured I shall not need particularly to refell the vulgar obiections agaynst this doctrine all which proceed vpon mistaking impugne what we neuer dreamed off They proue that Christ only dyed for the world and redeemed mankind not any Saint who doubts thereof That we are sanctifyed and washed from the stayne of sinne by the bloud of the Lambe not of any Saint We confesse it They bring the testimonyes of Saint Leo of Saint Augustine that the Saints receaued Crownes of God gaue not Crownes vnto others but only Christ we neuer did nor will deny it That only in Christ we dye to sinne are raysed agayne soule and body vnto eternall life we neuer taught the Contrary For the satisfaction of Saints haue not vertue to redeeme the world nor to satisfy for the guilt of
proue that Iesuits hold singular opinions to enlarge the Popes Power you say pag. 573. That Iesuits more thē other Romists are obliged by speciall Vow to mantayne Papall dignity And pag. 579. If his Holynes send another wind you which haue Vowed strict Obedience vnto the Pope must turne your sayles your Votes and Prayers must be bound to execute the Popes pleasure in killing the King And agayne pag. 577. What safety and security can Princes inioy by relying vpon such seruants which stand Centinell vpon an houres warning to follow their greater Maister If your Maisters hand cast Crosse insteed of Pile what shall we expect from such Gamesters Quibus Ludus sunt Capita Diademata Regum This is your Cauill vttered with all possible gall which yet is cleered by the words in your margent out of the Bull of Confirmatiō of the Institute of the Iesuits by Pope Paul the third You cite them in latin as agaynst Iesuits to delude fooles But you English them not as knowing they tend to the credit of Iesuits the discouery of your slaunder These they be We ●udge i● expediēt for the greater deuotion to the Sea Apostolicke more full abnegation of our owne selfe wills and pleasures that the Professed of this Society besides the Common band of three Vowes be further tyed by speciall Vow so that whatsoeuer the Roman Bishop for the time being shall command PERTINENT VNTO THE SALVATION OF SOVLES and PROPAGATION OF THE FAITH they shall be bound to execute the same presently without tergiuersation and excuse whether THEY SHALL BE SENT VNTO TVRKES or vnto INFIDELS euen vnto those which are commonly called THE INDYES or vnto HERETIKES or SCHISMATIKS These be the words contayning the matter of the Iesuits speciall Vow By which it appeareth that their Vow is not to enlarge Papal power but to propagate the Christian Name to find out not new opinions to put men vnder the Pope but new Nations neuer heard of before to exalt thē to Heauen by teaching them the sauing Truth Nor are Iesuits bound by this Vow to obey the Pope absolutely in all things but in things that are according to their Institute which is to follow as neere as by diuine grace they may the life of Iesus If the Pope command them they must obey in thinges that pertayne vnto the Saluation of soules not in thinges which belonge vnto the destruction of bodyes If the Pope bid they be bound to go begging in Apostolicall manner not fighting in military sort to carry the Crosse not to brandish the sword to sound the Gospell of peace not the Trumpet of Warre to giue in the defence of truth their owne Bloud not to shed the bloud of others to help men vnto eternall Crownes not to take temporall Crownes from any Hence you may see Iesuits stand indeed Centinell at an houres warning to be sent vnto Iewes Turkes Infidells Indians Caniballs to preach the Gospel and in preaching thereof to expose their liues to dayly dangers of death destitute of all comfort that the world can affoard In execution whereof they haue by their labours brought to the knowledge of blisfull life and to the hope of euerlasting Crownes many Princes Kingdoms in the Indyes whereas your Gospell the meane while did nothing but tumultuate rayse seditions murther and put Kings from their Thrones in Europe In so much as Beza Epist. Theol. 63. sayth What Churches should we now haue had we not erected them by force of armes agaynst the will of Kings Whence it is cleere that the Iesuits Vow to be ready at an houres warning to goe vnto any Country of Infidels to preach the Gospell is not against the safety and security of Kings If some Ministers in England could so eloyne themselues from all affections of this life as to bind themselues by Vow vnto their Lord of Canterbury to be ready at an houres warning to goe when he sends them without tergiuersatiō or excuse to preach the Gospell whether to Iewes Turkes Infidells Indians or Caniballs as he shall thinke most 〈◊〉 how this Vow would endāger the Kings security I do not see 〈…〉 would indeed trouble their Wiues so it is a Perfection not to 〈…〉 for amongst wiuing Gospellers Yea they cānot endure the sight thereof more then Bats the Cādle which they striue to put out with their impure winges as these men labour to disgrace such glorious Institutes their Wiuing Gospell cānot aspire vnto with the filth of all slaunderous Reports The Title of Gamesters quibus ludus sunt Capita Diademata Regum that play and sport at the decrowning and beheading of Kings which for a farewell you would shake frō your selues vpon Iesuits will not so easily goe from you it is proprium quarto modo to you the note and ensigne of your Gospell the distinctiue Marke of your Profession and will be so longe as there shall be mention thereof For your gaming feasting and triumphing at the beheading of the Lords Annoynted is set vpō Authenticall Record in your owne Chronicles Iohn Stow. pag. 1240. Will you reade it Anno Reg. 29. The 6. of December The Lord Maior of London assisted with Diuers Earles Barons the Aldermen of London in scarlet the principall Officers of the Citty the greatest number of the Gentlemen of the best account in and about the Citty with the number of 80. of the most Grauest and Worshipfullest Cittizens in Coats of Veluet and Chaynes of Gold all on horsebacke IN MOST SOLEMNE stately manner BY THE SOVND OF FOVRE TRVMPETS about ten of the clocke in the fore Noone made open and publicke Proclamation of the SENTENCE GIVEN for the BEHEADING OF THE QVEENE OF SCOTS to the GREAT and WONDERFVL REIOYCING of the people OF ALL SORTES as manifestly appeared by RINGING of Bells making of BONEFIRES and SINGING of Psalmes IN EVERY streete and lane of the Citty Neuer since Christianity began was there Sect or Nation of men vnder the Name of Christian that did iuridically behead a Christian Annoynted King feasting singing and dancing about Bonefyres for ioy in that respect but only your Ghospell So as men hearing the Title of Gamesters quibus ludus sunt Capita Diademata Regum can they vnderstand any other Profession but yours Thus I haue more largely encountred with your slaunders that you might see you gayne nothing by your bitter excursions into odious matters The myst of your Cauills is easily dispersed by the euidence of the Truth your Calumniations agaynst Catholicks as balls cast agaynst a wall of brasse For murus aheneus esto Nil conscire sibi returne with a strong rebound of confusion vpon your owne face THE CONCLVSION HAVING performed your Maiestyes will and pleasure in seeking to giue satisfaction about the Nine principal points that withhold your Roall Assent from ioyning vnto the Roman Church my poore endeauours prostrate at your Maiestyes feete to receiue their doome humbly beseech this fauour that your Charity Desire of
of their Lord and Sauiour The third is to moue and incite men to the imitation of the vertues of Christ and his Saints which vtility S. Basill (*) Basil. homil in 40. Martyres doth declare highly esteeme in his Sermon of the forty Martyrs And examples might be brought of mē reclaymed by sight of godly images euen in the heat of sinfull affection The fourth is to stay our thoughts vpon Christ and his Passion that our imaginations in prayer may not so easily wander which vse of images catholiks in their deuotions do often experience Finally that in his image we may honour Christ the honour of the image redounding to the Originall And who so crowneth the Kings image honoureth the King whose image it is sayth S. (a) Ambros. serm in Psal. 118. Ambrose In which kind memorable is the deuotion of our Victorious and Religious King (b) Polidor l. 7. Histor. Anglor Canutus who tooke the diademe that he vsed to weare on his owne head and therewith crowned an image of Christ Crucifyed which in his dayes was deuoutly (c) Harpesfield Eccles Hist. Saeculo 11. cap. 2. reserued in the Church of S. Peter S. Paul in Winchester afterwards would neuer haue any crown come on his head out of humble reuerence to his Crucifyed Lord. (d) The Minister concludes this disputation with saying pag. 289. lin 10. Let it be noted that our Aduersary hath manifested wonderous weakenes For he hath not throghout his whole disputation produced one playne Text of Scripture or cleere sentēce of antiquity for Iconolatry I answere That Iconolatry signifyes diuine worship of Images which the Answerer did not intend to establish yea the Minister himselfe p. 245. lin 1. saith that Iconolatry or diuine worship of Images is impertinent or heretogenious ●o this disputation Wherfore the Minister herein sheweth wonderous defect of iudgment who thus by his own confession flyeth the questiō Nor hath he beene able to bring one example or text of Scripture I do not say playne but with a little shew to proue the question in hand that the proper images of adored persons that be lawfully made may not lawfully be adored On the other side such images of adored persons if they be made that they must be adored the honour done or denyed to the Image redounding to the person the Iesuite hath proued by the force of the nature of images by the Analog● vnto images of humane adored persons by the Prophet Dauid his practise of this principle by the prime article of Christianity by testimony of Fathers and by all kind of Theologicall proofes The testimonyes of the Fathers more in particular concerning the adoration of Christ his image materiall Crosse as being vnto al learned men vulgarly known and notorious the Answerer did not produce further then was necessary to proue that Protestants cannot truly assigne the time when the bowing vnto the image of Christ was brought in among Christians but by the Apostles Els what more easy then to haue brought testimonyes for this point in euery age vpward frō the eight where the same was defined by the Generall Councell of Nice as appeares by this Catalogue of foure in euery age which is one aboue the highest number of witnesses required to make a matter of fact firme certayne In the seauenth age the sixt Generall Councell canon 73. sayth We that are saued by the Crosse ought to vse all diligence to giue it due honour to wit Adoration with mind with speach with gesture For which cause we decree that no Images of the Crosse be made on the floore S. Maximus martyr lib. cui titulus ex dogmat inter Maximum Theodos. writes that diuers persons of worth amongst them the Bishop of Caesarea being conuerted from the Heresy of Monothelisme did with teares of ioy and pennance goe to the Church where they saluted that is bowed vnto the holy Images of our Sauiour and of our Lady mother of God and laying their hands vpon them abiured their Heresyes S. Sophronius Homil. in laudem Sanctae Crucis In the midst of Lent sayth he the Venerable Wood of the vitall Crosse is adored seing our Lord hath appointed this way for vs to get pardon of our sinnes according to the Tradition of holy Fathers S. Leontius lib. 5. aduersus Iudaeos The Iewes deride vs who haue in honour and esteeme and do wor●hip the holy Crosse and sacred images tearming vs worshippers of woodden Idols In the sixt age S. Gregory l. 7. Epist. 5. sayth worship and veneration is due to the holy Crosse image of the Blessed Virgin Procopius Gazensis in cap. 20. Isaia writes that the Christian custome was to paint the images of the holy Martyrs on the prores of ships for defence and protection Euagrius l. 4. c. 26. relates miracles done through the worship of Images S. Simeon Stylites Epist. ad Iustin. Imperat sayth If according to your sacred Lawes they that offer dishonour vnto the statues and images of the Emperour be worthy of death what punishment do they deserue that with barbarous fury haue defaced the Image of our Lord and his blessed Mother In the fift age S. Cyril Homil. cont Nestor in Concil Ephesin sayth the Crosse is adored ouer the whole world S. Sedulius lib. 4. Paschal no man is ignorant that the image of the crosse is to be adored S. Chrysostome in Liturgia Let the Priest as he goeth to the aultar bow his head to the image of the Crosse. S. Hierome in Epitaph Paulae commends the deuotion of S. Paula in that she did lye prostrate before the Crosse kissed the same with great faith adoring Christ therein as if she had seene him present on the Crosse. S. Paulinus Epist. 11. writes that the print or image of our Sauiours feet on the mount Oliue● was miraculously conserued and adored as also the holy Crosse yearly at Easter the Bishop himselfe being the principall adorer In the fourth age Prudentius l. 2. Cont. Simmach The Roman Emperour lies prostrate in the Church of Christ and the Gouernour of the world adores the standard of the Crosse. S. Athanasius q. 15. ad Antiochum writes That Christians worshipping the image of the Crosse if Heathens accuse them of adoring the wood may presently dissolue the Crosse and cast away the wood Helladius successour of S. Basill writes of S. Basill how he did kneele and pray suppliantly before the image of our B Lady agaynst the threates of Iulian the Emperour Iulius Firmicus de error profan Religion c. 22. sayth What do these hornes signify but the Venerable figure of the holy crosse c vnto these hornes fly with humble veneration In the third age before Constantine Lactantius liued through he saw also the beginning of Constantine his raygne This Father in carm de pass testifyes that at the entrance of Christian Churches was placed a faire image of Christ Crucifyed shewing how men ought how
taken out of the Hymnes and Verses thereof If they that by begging obtayne of the king the life of one condemned to death may be are commonly (s) Our Aduersary in this place playeth the right Minister according to the new order very hansomely telleth a lye saying to the Iesuit You labour to qualifye your blasphemous words by ā honorable expositiō pretending you SAY one thinge and MEANE another What boldnes is this doth not the Iesuit say that they not only meane well but also speake well and according to the rigour of speach the phrase of Scripture holy Fathers How then doth he pretend that we say one thing and meane another sayd to saue his life though they saued him by intercession not by their proper authority why may not Saints be sayd to giue vs the things which by their prayers they obtayne for vs Why may not the Church speake in Hymnes in Verse as the learnedst Fathers spake euen in Prose neuer imagining that any would mistake their meaning Saint Gregory Nazianzen for his excellēt learning tearmed by the Grecians The Deuine thus prayeth vnto Saint Cyprian Looke downe on vs from heauen with a propitious eye guide our works and wayes feed this holy flocke gouerne it with vs dispose some of them as farre as is possible to a better state Cast out importune and troublesome wolues that cauill catch at sillables vouchsafe vs the perfect and cleere splendour of the B. Trinity with whome thou art already present (t) The Minister heere sayth the Iesuit cānot proue that Gregory Naziāzen did Inuocate S. Cyprian but only made an Oratoriall Apostrophe vnto him As Papists say in their hymne al hayle o Crosse yet they do not pray to the wodden Crosse. This is vanity For that S. Gregory Nazianzen did properly inuocate S. Cyprian I proue by this demonstratiō For one to call vpon some person for ayde thinking him that he doth heare him is able to helpe is to Inuocate him S. Gregory Nazianzē did call vpon S. Cyprian for helpe thinking he heard him was able to helpe him for he sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I know well that Blessed Saints heare me and are ready to reach out their hand to such as need their helpe Ergo he did properly Inuocate him pray vnto him And not only Fathers but also Scriptures speake of Saints in the same sort our Sauiour saying Make to your selues friendes of the riches of Iniquity that when you dye they may receaue you into the eternall tabernacles If then the Saints of God by the mouth of Verity it selfe be said to receaue their friends when they dye into the eternall Tabernacles because God mooued by their prayers admits them into the Blissefull vision of his essence why may not the Church and her children craue the Blessed Virgins intercessions in these wordes Mother of Mercy receaue vs in the houre of death And seing God in Scripture is tearmed Mercy why should not she be stiled mother of mercy that is vndoubtedly mother of God especially seeing that in and of her the Authour of mercy grace was conceaued and borne and she filled with grace and charity aboue all other Creatures (u) The seely Minister not knowing which way to turne himselfe to find some seeming ground of carping at the formes of the Catholicke Missals Roman Liturgy he goeth catching at the phrases of priuate writers To what purpose If the Authours cannot iustifye their phrases Metaphores let him dislike them in Gods name What is this to the Catholike Church Some writer did not apply his Metaphore fitly Ergo the Roman Church is Idolatrous That other phrase much disliked by your Maiesty that God reseruing Iustice to himselfe hath giuen away mercy to his mother is not vsed by the Church in any of her prayers nor allowed of by Catholike Deuines nor will we iustify it being an harsh and vnfitting Metaphore though thereby the Authours thereof expresse a truth to wit that the Blessed Virgin is exceeding gracious with her Sonne and her intercession very potēt alluding to a phrase of Scripture vsed Hester cap. 5.3.6 cap. 7.2 Marke 6.23 whereby such as are gracious with a prince are sayd that they may haue any thing though halfe of his Kingdome so deuiding Gods Kingdome into Iustice and Mercy to shew how gracious the Blessed Virgin is with her Sonne they say God hath giuen her one halfe of his Kingdome to wit his Mercy which is a Metaphore far fetcht not to be vsed howsoeuer in charity it may be excused THE FOVRTH POINT The Liturgy priuate prayers for the Ignorant in an vnknovvne tongue THE custome of the Romane Church in this point is agreable to the custome of the Church in all Ages and also of (*) The Minister pag. 356. lin 22. It is false according to the Tenet of Bellarmine himselfe that all other Churches which differ from Protestāts haue their publike seruice in Hebrew Greeke or Latine Answer This is your fashion whē you haue not what to reply you impose your sayings vpon your Aduersary and then vrge they are false The Answerer neuer said that al Churches which differ from Protestants haue their seruice in Hebrew Greeke or Latine for this he knew to be false in the Maronits Armenians Aegyptians Aethiopians Russians But he said they all agree with the Roman in that they haue their diuine seruice in a language not vulgar nor commonly knowne of the people this is true for the fore-named Christians haue their Lyturgies in a speciall language which is not their vulgar all Churches now in the world bearing the name of Christian though opposite vnto the Romane only those of the pretended Reformation excepted which constant concurrence is a great signe that the same is very conforme vnto reason and not any where forbidden in Gods word which wil easily appeare if we looke particulerly into the same For we may imagine a triple state of Liturgy in an vnkowne tongue The first in a language altogeather (x) The Minister pag. 369. saith This is a Chimera Non Ens because there was neuer such a Liturgy in the Church Answere In the beginning of the Church there was not any set Forme of publike prayer but the sacred Minister did extemporally make prayers at meetings And that some then did vse to make extemporall prayers in languages altogether vnknowne euen to themselues appeares by the Apostle 1. Cor. 14. Nor is it inough for a Minister to say that this is a Non Ens and a Chimera because it neuer was For first though it neuer were yet it might haue been and things that be possible and might haue been be not Chimera's Secondly that in meetings some did vse a language altogether vnknowne at prayer S. Paul doth witnes who I trow is to be belieued before a Minister He forbids the speaking in the Church with an vnknowne tongue when there is none present that