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A42568 An answer to the compiler of the Nubes testium wherein is shewn that antiquity (in relation to the points of controversie set down by him) did not for the first five hundred years believe, teach, or practice as the Church of Rome doth at present believe, teach, and practice : together with a vindication of the Veteres vindicati from the late weak and disingenuous attempts of the author of Transubstantiation defended / by the author of the Answer to Mr. Sclater of Putney. Gee, Edward, 1657-1730. 1688 (1688) Wing G453; ESTC R21951 96,934 107

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never any before CHAP. V. Concerning Prayers for the Dead SECT I. THE next point under debate that our Compiler presents us with is that about Prayers for the Dead Aerius he says condemned Praying for the Dead and that the Fathers practised it and owned it as advantageous to the Souls departed Every word of which we freely grant how then is this a Controversie betwixt us at present under debate They of his Church have been so often told of and shewn the vast difference betwixt the Prayers used in the Primitive Church and those by the present Romish Church that I cannot but wonder that they are not ashamed of still urging the Prayers of the Ancients and making them the grounds of their Belief of a Purgatory We always grant that Antiquity practised Praying for the Dead so that our Compiler's Testimonies borrowed from F. Alexandre's fourty first Dissertation a Nat. Alex. Dissertatio quadragesima prima in Par. secunda Sec. 4. p. 392 c. are mustered up to no purpose since they are brought in here to prove that which no one denies That which is a real Controversie betwixt us if our Compiler durst have spoken out as his Master F. Alexandre doth who urges all the Testimonies b Purgatorium esse in quo expientur animae justorum Preces Ecclesiae ipsis illo in statu prodesse Traditione demonstratur And then he sets down the Authorities which our Compiler borrows p. 392. our Compiler sets down for the Proof of Purgatory it self is whether there is such a place as Purgatory and whether consequently we ought to use Prayers for the Souls in it or can help them out thence by the saying of Masses here and this is that which we demand of them to prove that either the Scriptures taught or the Primitive Church believed that there is a third state or place called Purgatory wherein the souls of those who died in the favour of God were in order to the satisfying the Justice of God for the temporal punishments due to those sins the eternal Punishment whereof God had already remitted before death to endure fiery torments equal to those in Hell till they had fully satisfied God's Justice or their Friends had obtained a release of part of those torments for them and got them released thence into the place and state of justified Souls and we demand farther of them to shew that the Word of God supposing that it did teach and Antiquity believe a Purgatory did injoin or commend the Prayers of the Living for the Souls of their deceased Friends in Purgatory or that it did any where declare that such Prayers would be advantageous to the Souls in Purgatory and could release them thence and we demand of them lastly to shew that Antiquity for the first three hundred nay five hundred years did ever use Prayers for the Release of the Souls of their deceased Friends out of this Purgatory This is the true state of the Controversie betwixt us we deny that the Word of God doth teach any such thing as a Romish Purgatory or that Antiquity believed any such place we deny that either the Scriptures did enjoin or commend or that Antiquity did use Prayers to deliver the Souls of their deceased Friends out of the flames of Purgatory as for the mistaken passage in the Maccabees which is also against their Tenets they know we do not own it for Scripture They of the Compiler's Church do affirm the contrary and therefore why did not he go regularly to work to disprove us why did not he bring us the passages of the Primitive Fathers which shew they believed Purgatory and the Prayers which were used then for the release of those miserable souls out of the fiery torments of Purgatory if there were such a belief of Purgatory and such Prayers used as are now in the Church of Rome during the first three or five hundred years But this is that which they are never able to doe and therefore instead of keeping close to the point under debate and proving either a Purgatory or Prayers used by the Primitive Church for release of Souls in Purgatory they slip the Debate let fall the Question and fall a proving of that which no body denies that the Fathers in the first ages used Oblations and Prayers for the Dead never considering in the mean time that those Prayers and Oblations were used by the Ancients for the very best of men for their Martyrs and Saints for the Virgin Mary herself that they were put up for those whom they believed to be in a state of Light and Joy and Comfort than which what can be farther either from the Doctrine or the Practice of the present Church of Rome We do confess withall that these Prayers were offered up also for pardon of sins but neither will this reach the case of the Church of Rome since these prayers for pardon of sins were generally for those who were in a state of Rest and Comfort and there is not a word in them for deliverance from pains and torments undergon in Purgatory SECT II. Thus in the Testimonies themselves which F. Alexandre and after him his implicit servant the Compiler have heaped up under this head the first of them c Nub. Test p. 85. Nat. Alex. Dissert 41. in Par. 2. Sect. 4. p. 392. from the pretended Dionysius makes the Bishop offer Prayers over the dead for pardon of sins of humane infirmity and that he may be placed in the Region of Light but if our Compiler had read the whole Chapter he from F. Alexandre quotes he might have seen the Services and this Prayer was put for one who was a Holy Servant of God who was by death at an end of all Combats and was already in joy and settled hopes d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dionys de Eccles Hierarch c. 7. p. 407. Edit Antuerp 1634. waiting for a blessed Resurrection not a word of which is consistent with being in the flames and torments of the fire of Purgatory or could be said of one who was now a purging in them And so the next from Tertullian appears not to be different especially since all are agreed that Martyrs themselves were herein commemorated e Nub. Test p. 85. Nat. Alex. p. 394. and for the Refreshment prayed for in the second quotation it did relate to that state of Sequester wherein Tertullian thought the Souls of the most holy were deteined till the day of Judgment and not at all to any Purgatory The next from St. Cyprian f Nub. Test p. 85 86. Nat. Alex. p. 394 395. relates onely to the same that Dionysius's did The following Testimonies from Arnobius and St. Cyril g Nub. Test p. 86. Nat. Alex. p. 395 396. prove onely what hath been hitherto granted that they then prayed for the dead but say not a word of delivering them from Purgatory But though these Testimonies hitherto promised but little service the next
p. 88 89. Nat. Alexan. p. 398 399. doth prove not onely that they prayed for the Just but for the Wicked also however there is nothing here to determine that they then believed a Purgatory or that the help they intended their deceased friends by their prayers was a deliverance from the torments of it there is that in this same Homily which is evidence enough against it where St. Chrysostome speaking of the Husbandman's rejoicing when his corn is dissolved in the earth because he is assured it will then grow up compares the burial of the righteous to such a sowing in the earth and would have Christians rejoice when the faithfull put off their earthly houses and are thus as it were sown in the earth to grow up into Immortality ſ S. Chrys Hom. 41. in 1. Epist ad Corinth in T. 5. in N. T. p. 466. Edit Ducaei after which if I apprehend him right as I am pretty certain I do he compares our being sown to keep to his Metaphor in the grave to the other sowing by which we are brought into the world and shews the mighty advantage of the first above the other that to our being sown t 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem Ibidem or born into the world succeed death and labours perils and cares whereas if we have lived well Crowns and Rewards do immediately succeed our being sown in the grave that corruption and death are the consequents of our being born into the world whereas Incorruption and Immortality and ten thousand other happinesses among which I hope no body will reckon Purgatory are the attendants of the death of the righteous The second Testimony doth endeavour to shew that the faithfull do receive benefit by the Prayers put up for them v Nub. Test p. 90. N. Alex. p. 399. but how does our Compiler or any of his Party shew that this benefit was the deliverance of those faithfull from the flames of Purgatory Had either our Compiler or his Guide himself but given themselves the trouble to peruse this Homily which they both quote they could not have avoided the reading that which utterly ruins any such groundless thing there they would have found this holy Father dissuading the Christians from a bewailing the Dead in General and how he reasons against it he allows them to bewail the wicked not onely when dead but while alive because they live in a continual Rebellion against God and are shut out from his Kingdom but for the just he would have Christians to rejoyce not onely while alive but when they are dead * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. D. Chrys Hom. 3. in Ep. ad Philip. in T. 5. in Nov. Test p. 31. Edit Ducaei because they are blessed as soon as translated hence because they are gone TO CHRIST and are always with their heavenly King but much more after their decease when they no longer by Faith or at a distance see him but enjoy him face to face c. I appeal to any man of sense whether there is a word that tends towards the teaching a Purgatory here I appeal to all men to our Compiler himself whether any man could express his Mind more directly against a Purgatory than this Father in this place when he tells us that the righteous when they die are happy go to Christ and are ever with their heavenly King whom they enjoy by faith indeed here but as soon as they are translated hence see him face to face The next large passage from the same Father x Nubes Test p. 91 92. Nat. Alex. p. 399 400. does but prove the same out of which our Compiler hath cunningly left out what relates to the oblations being offered for the Martyrs themselves and here again I must tell our Compiler that his Guide either never read this Homily he quotes or acts very disingenuously in bringing St. Chrysostome's words to prove a Purgatory against which he is as express as words can make him when he shews that to lament the death of the righteous is as ridiculous as if we should bemoan y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. D. Chrys Hom. 21. in Acta Ap. p. 201. in T. 3. in N. T. Edit Fr. Duc. one invited to a Kingdom and tells them how the Angels at the death of the faithfull are sent from Heaven to call their fellow-servant and to bring him to Christ's heavenly Kingdom and he concludes that the faithfull is not to be lamented since his Soul leaving this earthly tabernacle hastens straight unto the Lord. I will observe here that as some of the Fathers St. Chrysostome among the rest did believe that their prayers were available to the righteous by gaining for them some accession of glory z D. Chrys Homil. 3. in Ep. ad Philip p. 32. so they were of opinion that they would procure some alleviation of torments some small assistence for the wicked and therefore did practise and advise the offering up of them for those eternally miserable Souls He that will peruse St. Chrysostome's third Homily upon the Epistle to the Philippians will see this very evident and may also see there notwithstanding this how far that Father was from believing such a state or place as Purgatory I need not insist on his last Testimony from this * Nub. Test p. 92. N. Alex. p. 400 401. Father which does not reach so far as the other three towards our Compiler's purpose since it onely advises the oblation of Alms for the increase of happiness to his Sons Soul but I would not omit giving our Compiler a little farther advice here that he would look over this Homily and then he will leave this passage out of his next book for Purgatory as well as he has left the Vision of Perpetua out of this in this Homily he may see how St. Chrysostome urges his old reason for their not bewailing the death of the righteous because as soon as they are departed they have clean escaped all dangers and do with safety possess an everlasting happiness In one word whosoever will look into St. Chrysostome himself may very evidently see how he divides the dead into two conditions onely the righteous which die in the favour of God go according to him immediately unto their Lord are immediately possessed of Crowns and eternal Rest and a compleat security from any thing of pain danger or trouble the wicked and such as die in sin he places among the damned for whom though he did hope and believe that by the Alms and Prayers of their Friends they might have some small relief some little abatement of torments yet he doth teach that their Judgment is irreversible upon this invincible reason † 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 D. Chrys Homil. 3. in Ep. ad Philipp p. 31. Edit Fr. Duc. because there is no hope for them who depart loaded with the
guilt of sins that they can get rid of the guilt of those sins after they are gone off the stage of this world while they were on earth God might wait and expect that they would repent and become better but when they are once gone off hence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unto the place of the damned or state of the dead there is no hopes of gaining by repentance any release since in this place or state there is no confession of sins to God for which St. Chrysostome quotes the sixth verse of the sixth Psalm according to the Seventy It were easie to bring a hundred places out of that Father that speak the same thing but I have already gathered more than enough to shew that St. Chrysostom's Doctrine is utterly inconsistent with the Romish Purgatory SECT IV. I will now pass on to the rest of our Compiler's Testimonies the first of which from Theodoret a Nub. Test p. 92. N. Alex. p. 401. brings us no news nor proves any thing for him nor the next to it from St. Ambrose b Nub. Test p. 92 93. N. Alex. p. 402. though it makes a great shew it is granted that St. Ambrose in this anniversary funeral Oration spoken so long after Theodosius his death doth fall to praying for Rest for Theodosius that his Soul may ascend to Heaven whence it came and there be out of the power of death and is so passionately earnest upon it that he would not leave him till by his Tears and Prayers he had brought him unto the Mountain of the Lord where He might enjoy Life for evermore But does all this prove that St. Ambrose did believe that the Emperour's Soul was in Purgatory or that Theodosius was in a miserable condition for whom he seems to be so earnest with his Prayers and Tears He that will affirm this must be as much a stranger to St. Ambrose as our brisk Compiler is I will confine my self to this very Oration which had Natalis Alexandre himself ever read he would not have brought this passage in for a Proof of Purgatory since it does so often appear in every page but one I dare avouch it that St. Ambrose did look upon Theodosius as already in glory and enjoying perfect happiness Thus within ten lines of the beginning of this Oration he says c Et ille quidem abiit sibi in regnum quod non depesuit sed mutavit in tabernacula Christi jure pietatis ascitus in illam Hierusalem supernam ubi NVNC POSITVS dicit sicut audivimus c. D. Ambr. Orat. de Obitu Theodosii T. 3. p. 53. Edit Erasm 1538. that Theodosius was now gone into his heavenly Kingdom being admitted for his Piety unto those Mansions in heaven which Christ said he would go to his Father to prepare into the heavenly Hierusalem where he is now placed c. and a little farther he brings in the Soul of this great Emperour replenished d Ergo decedens è terris Pia Anima Sancto repleta Spiritu quasi interrogantibus iis qui sibi occurrerent cum sese ad sublimia superna subrigeret dicebat Dilexi interrogabant Angeli vel Archangeli quid egisti in terris Occultorum enim SOLVS Cognitor Deus dicebat Dilexi Idem Ibidem p. 56. with the Holy Ghost mounting up into Heaven and telling the Angels and Archangels who were according to St. Ambrose ignorant of things below and therefore did inquire of him that the love of God had been his employment here on earth and after this falling upon the mention of the Rest of Sabbath for the People of God St. Ambrose e Feriatus his seculi curis Theodofius se ereptum gaudet elevat animam suam atque ad illam perpetuam dirigit Requiem Idem Ibidem p. 58. tells his Auditours that Theodosius being now wholly rid of worldly cares does rejoyce that He is taken from them and employs his Soul onely upon the thoughts of the eternal Rest for blessed Souls and again he f Absolutus igitur dubio certamine fruitur NVNC Augustae Memoriae Theodosius Luce Perpetuâ Tranquillitate Diuturnâ pro iis quae in Corpore gessit munerationis divinae Fructibus gratulatur ergo quia dilexit Dominum Deum suum meruit Sanctorum Consortia Idem Ibidem p. 58. tells them that Theodosius being freed from uncertain fight did THEN ENJOY perpetual Light and a never-ceasing Tranquillity and that he did enjoy and rejoyce in the Communion and Company of the Saints in Glory I could add more were not this more than enough to let the world see the intolerable disingenuity of our Compiler and his Guide F. Alexandre who will needs have St. Ambrose to be here praying Theodosius his Soul out of Purgatory whereas it is as plain as any thing can be expressed that St. Ambrose did believe that from the very moment of his death that Great Emperour was with God in Bliss and perfect Tranquillity The next Testimony from this Father g Nub. Test p. 93. N. Alex. p. 402. is to as little purpose and had F. Alexandre himself for as to our Compiler he honest Soul with an humble piece of implicitness sets down just what his Master had but set down also the line which is immediately before and connected to this Testimony he might have saved me the trouble of answering here St. Ambrose having told Faustinus that we ought not to be so much concerned for the Accidents of this World put down for an example the Casualties of several famous Cities near them then in dust and never like to return to their ancient splendour and then begins to compare these with the loss of his Sister who as the Father urges h Haec autem ad tempus quidem erepta nobis MELIOREM ILLIC VITAM exigat itaque non tam deplorandam quam prosequendam Orationibus reor D. Ambros ad Faustinum Ep. 8. l. 2. Edit Erasm 1538. is but taken from us for a while and doth there enjoy a much happier life so that here our Compiler's Testimony comes in he ought not so much to bewail her as to follow her with his Prayers If she did enjoy a much happier life I am sure she was not then in the flames of Purgatory In the next Testimony i Nub. Test p. 93. N. Alex. p. 402. St. Hierome commends Pammachius for his great Charity and for his designs of building a publick Hospital and thereby cherishing as it were with odours the Soul of Paulina his departed Wife St. Hierome however was far from thinking her Soul in Purgatory flames when just before he ends the Epistle he speaks of her k illa cum sorore Paulinâ DVLCI SOMNO fruitur D. Hieron Ep. 26. ad Pammach T. 1. fol. 76. Edit Erasin 1524. as then enjoying a sweet sleep or blessed Rest What St. Austin l Nubes Test p. 94 95. N. Alex. p. 402 403. did in