is linked your place with enim Impossibile est enim for it is vnpossible c. And that which our Sauiour saith to the Pharisées Scribes Mat. 12. Mar. 3. of Sinne or blasphemie against the holy Ghost because they said Spiritum immundum habet He hath an vncleane spirit euen Belzabub the prince of the diuels to cast out diuels by doth he say it to driue them to desperation yea doth he not plainely speake it to moue them the more and to the greater repentance As your selfe also contrarie after your manner to your selfe Pur. 461. though in expresse wordes counting D. Allen and his fellowes such as Heb. 6. can not by you repent hauing sometime bene lightned As though D. Allen had euer bene a Protestant and tasted of the good gift of God doe yet exhort them truely to repent and to returne to the acknowledging of trueth once knoweÌ„ and professed and doe beseech God that so many among them as are curable may haue grace so to do So the whole circumstance sheweth that Christ there exhorteth them to most humble penance For neither doth he otherwise say that such sinne blasphemie shal not be remitted then he saith that all other sinne and blasphemie shall be remitted And yet I trow many a one yea aboue all number may be and is damned in hell for other sinne and blasphemie Euen so many a one yea and aboue all number may be and is forgiuen the sinne against the Holy Ghost Wherby it is euident that he doth no more in that place but report the ordinarie rules of Gods prouidence to wit To forgeue al other sinne ordinarily by giuing the partie grace to repent and not to forgeue ordinarily the sinne against the holy Ghost that is when one maliciously calleth the Miracles of Christ and of his Seruauntes the workes of the Deuill or the lying signes and wonders of Antichrist Which sinne your new Gospell hath made very common in these dayes But yet that no such also should dispaire one of these a Act. 23.26 Philip. 3. Pharisées he the very worst of theÌ„ all saith most comfortably b 1. Tim. 1. Act. 7.9 A sure saying and worthy of all embracing that Christ Iesus came into the worlde to saue sinnerss of whom I am the principall But to this end I had mercie that in me the principall who afore was a blasphemer and a persecuter and an oppresser in my c Vide Au. expo inch ad Rom. prope fineÌ„ blind incredulitie Christ Iesus might shew all clemencie for a samplar to all that should after beleue in him Nowe for that which you alleaged out of Samuel Ieremie and Ezechiel it is all spoken in one sense of temporall matters to wit of casting Saule from his kingdome and the Iewes into captiuitie in another sense of the Iewes generall reprobation in which they presently be since their crucifying of their Messias and ours But to pray for the saluation of Saul or the Iewes no man was forbidden no nor for their temporall felicitie to continue vntill it was quite past So did Samuell mourne for Saul euen to the moment that he was sent to annoint Dauid in his place So did Ieremie still continue praying for the Iewes as appeareth in the same Chapters Rom. 10. and as Saint Paule writeth of his owne doyng afterwardes when the time of their reprobation was nowe present Finally there is in Ezechiel a notable and a comfortable rule for the wicked also by name howe to take and vnderstande the comminations of God to wit not simply as you doe and absolutely Ezech. 33. Iere. 18. but with a condition If I say to the wicked Thou shalt die the death sée as it were absolutely but yet it followeth neuerthelesse and he repent him of his sinne and worke iudgement and iustice and make restitution of pledge and of robberie and generally walke in the commaundementes of lyfe nor doe any euill he shall liue the life and shall not die Another point is that straunge interpretation of the Article of our Creede Christ descended into Hell to redeeme vs out of Hell by suffering the wrath of God for our sinnes Hebr. 5. In that place is neuer a worde of that Article and much lesse of that interpretation neither that Christ suffred the wrath of God although that may be saide so as the Scriptures doe tearme payne or punishment by the name of wrath But then what other wrath did he suffer then that which is expressed plainely in the wordes afore passus crucifixus mortuus He suffered was crucifyed and dyed Belike you meane the padde that your Maister Caluine leaft in the strawe Pur. 451. Cal. Insti li. 2. ca. 16. sect 10. that all thys which I haue saide was nothing Nihil actum erat si Christus corporea tantum morte defunctus fuisset It had auayled nothing if Christ had dyed bodily death onely And so you will bring vs when you reply b Aug. ep 99. howe he dyed some death of Soule also eyther that which mortall Sinners doe dye here in sinning or that which they dye afterwardes in Hell when they be in damnation for their sinne You say Pur. 63. that Caluine affirmeth his descending into Hell to be vnderstoode of the wrath of God which he sustayned for our sinnes before his death at that time especially when he that was God complained that he was forsaken of God What other forsaking was that but that he did not deliuer him from the Crosse which was to forsake by the iudgement both of naturall desire and especially of his most wicked enemies who saide there in their diuelishe insultation Mat. 27. He trusted in God let him nowe deliuer him if he will haue him for he said That I am the Sonne of God Neyther was it a complaint as you say but a prayer as you myght haue séene euen Hebrues .5 if you had not béene blynd Who in the dayes of his fleshe with a myghtie crie and with teares offered vp prayers and supplications to hym that was able to saue him out of death and was heard for hys reuerence to wit beinâ— raysed by him agayne Whereby you sée that in déede he was not forsaken neyther corporally Where now is your Sâ—â—ipture or Caluins for any other but bodyly death of Châ—ist for any other wrath for any other forsaking Or what Châ—istian man did euer thinke that Christes bodily death alone was nothing yea or that it was not the full sufficient and abundant raunsome or redemption of the world All the world must go to schole againe to Caluin to learne that Christes soule besides his bodily death was in such horrible distresse of conscience in such meruellous anguish horror frayeur yea and damnation that his case was for the time despairing blaspheming excepted euen the selfe same that the case of the damned is for euer yea that he was in feare least he should haue bene
cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
sense but because his death was so long before preordeined of God and prefigured as the Apostles do often say to stop the mouthes of them that obiected newnesse to our Religion of saluation by a dead man As the like would be a iustification of your new Gospell if you could shew out of Scripture that Luther was preordeined for that purpose Againe in the same place you alleage that Esay speaking of the righteous that are departed out of this life saith that ther is peace and that they shall rest in their beds Esa 57. Like as he affirmeth that Tophoth which is Gehinnone or hell is prepared of old for the wicked Esai 30. Esai speaketh not of his owne time but as a Prophet of the time now since the comming of Christ who is our peace There is peace say you but he saith There shal come peace or as the Churches translation hath no lesse agreably to the Hebrew Let peace come I pray Moreouer if it were graunted that then also they did rest in their beds because the death of the Iust is but a sléepe for the assurāce of their resurrection what were this to their soules Also if their soules did rest must euery rest néedes be the blisse of heauen We say not that Limbus patrum was Purgatory but that it was a place of rest because without poena sensus though not without poena damni for the time Suppose a kings sonne and heire that by some crime deserued disheriting but the king his father of grace will let him inhirite mary not at the time he otherwise should but certayne yeres after yet during those yeres also he shall be well and honorably prouided for may we not say that this man is at ease considering his prouision and yet in punishment also considering his losse for the time Such was their case in Limbo It was not hell you say because it was not Tophet or Gehenna Why our Créede and the Scripture saith that Christes Soule was in hell Infra ca. 12. and yet no man so wicked except it were Caluine him selfe I thinke to say it was in Gehenna Therefore Gehenna or Tophet the place for the wicked was not the onely hell As vaynly and more falsely you argue that it was not hell because Luc. 16. Lazarus was caried by Angels not downe to hell but vp to Abrahams bosome Caried vp is that portari or apenechthinai But the riche man is in hell you say and he looketh vp and seeth a farre of Lazarus in the bosome of Abraham The same wise argument againe In this place this is called hel therfore no other may be called hell although the Scripture it selfe els where nameth to vs another hell The places might in situation at least in respect of the heauenly mantions being so far distant from them both be nigh together although one were vpward and also farr of both in state situation purgatorie peraduenture being betwéene them Againe if it were graunted that they were no way nigh together yet it would not follow that Abrahams bosome was heauen As neyther if Lazarus were caried vpward 4. Reg 2. For so was Elias who yet was not caried into heauen that now we speake of Another of your manifest argumentes being the last in that place If righteousnes belongeth to Abrahams children the reward of righteousnes also pertaineth vnto them Therefore Abrahams bosome was open to receiue all the children of Abrahā euen as Ioan. 1. the bosome of God was ready to receiue Abraham because he was his sonne through faith Nay you should haue said because he was That vvhich is proper to vnigenitus he maketh common to Abraham vnigenitus qui est in sinu patris The onely begotten sonne who is in the bosome of the Father and then you had saide somewhat But these your grosse ignorances in the scripture I must reserue to their own proper Chapter To your argument I say Infra ca. 12. that the reward of righteousnes may belong to one and yet not paide him as soone as he dyeth S. Paule naming both Abraham him selfe and many children of his saith expresly According to faith all these departed Heb. 11. not receiuing the promises but beholding them a farre of And againe And all these renowned by faith receiued not the promise that is the inheritance the reward of righteousnes Pur. 441.451 In two other places also you prate against Limbus but you alleage no other Scripture against it Well then you haue not proued that afore Christes comming any one went to heauen nor that all went straight to Limbus and therefore none to Purgatorie Now whether since Christes comming they all goe straight to heauen and therefore none to Purgatorie let vs likewise examine Whether since Christ all go straight to heauen There is no prayer for the dead nor Purgatory after this life you say because they that liue vnto Christ dye vnto him Pur. 451. and being dissolued are with him Ioa. 17. And in another place more distinctly Pur. 276. We beleue that the soules of the faithful the repentāt are where Christ is as he prayeth Ioa. 17. Father I will that those whom thou hast giuen me where I am they also may be with me that they may see my glory And euen so he saith to the Theefe no perfect iust man but a sinner repentant This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise Luc. 23. And S. Paul desireth to be dissolued and to be with Christ Philip. 1. That to be with Christ is to sée his Godheades glory and not onely his manheades glory would hardly be proued out of the Scripture Yet because it maketh with the foresaid definition of the Church I graunt it So then the example of the Apostle S. Paule declareth that a perfect iust man goeth straight to Christ The example of the Theefe declareth that likewise a penitent sinner goeth straight to Christ if either his penance be full and perfect or his pardon which is a remission of his penance be a plenary And the saying Ioan. 17. specially béeing illustrate with these two examples declareth as much howbeit by it self alone it declareth no more but that they which are Christes may and shall be with Christ but when it sayth not You allude there to one place more which is Rom. 14. We liue to our Lord and we dye to our Lord Whereby he meaneth not that we be with our Lorde when we dye no more then he meaneth that we be with our Lorde when we liue but that both in our life and at our death from the beginning to the end we be not our owne men but seruantes to another and that he therefore is my Iudge if I do not well and not thou also to him I my selfe must make my count and not thou for me This béeing the sense of that place you had forsooth great reason to conferre it with Apoc. 14. to controll S. Augustines sense Pur. 436.446
often as aboue in his Enchiridion graunteth the same fire to be also for the said mortall sinnes if one haue left committing of them but not yet fully redéemed them poenitentiae medicamentis with the plaisters of penance viij Of Limbus patrum And now we are come to your Doctors that you alleage agaynst Limbus Patrum The one is S. Augustine Pur. 56.60 Au. ep 99. of whose most cleare testimonie alleaged by D. Allen Because the (a) Act. 2. Scriptures make euident mention both of hell and of paynes I see no other cause why our Sauiour came thither according as we beleeue nisi vt ab eius doloribus saluos facerit But to ridde some of the paynes therof Fuisse enim apud inferos in eorum doloribus constitutis hoc beneficium praestitisse non dubito I am out of doubt that he was in hell and that he bestowed that gratious benefite vpon some that were in the paynes therof You are fayne to say that it is but the authoritie of a man But you haue another place a Gods name Where he semeth vtterly to deny that he came in that prison of hell And to make all sure you imagine what we will answere to it and then you make your reply But all besides the text like one that neuer saw the booke For he saith there as plainly as in the other place Fuit apud inferos Christi Anima diuinitas Aug. in Felicianū Arrianū ca. 17 18.15 Both the soule and the diuinitie of Christ was in hell But for what cause Vt anima animas reparet That his soule might repayre our soules and as aboue he said deliuer some soules out of their paynes there But not to suffer any paines there it selfe as the Arrians did blaspheme For if saith he in the words that you alleage his or the good théefes for it may be vnderstoode of either body being dead his soule is immediatly called to Paradise do we thinke any man yet so impious that he dare say our Sauiours soule in that three dayes of his bodily death apud inferos custodiae mancipetur is in hell committed to prison Lo syr what he vtterly denieth to wit that his soule was committed there to prison not that it came in that prison as to deliuer the prisoners Your other Doctor is S. Ireneus whom D. Allen first alleaged saying manifestly Pur. 55.59 Iren. lib. 3. cap. 33. that Adam was Implens tempora eius cōdemnationis quae facta fuerat propter inobedientiam Fulfilling the times of that condemnation which came by disobedience vntill our Lord came and then solutus est condemnationis vinculis he was released of the bonds of his condemnation And you answere that the name of Adam seemeth to be takē in these words rather for a name common signifying all mankinde then for a proper name Iesu how blindly Do you not know that he reporteth li. 1. ca. 31. that the proper Heresie of Tacianus was Adae saluti contradictionem faciens His ignorance that he gainsaide the saluation of Adam and after him S. Augustine Haer. 25. Saluti primi hominis contradicunt The Tacianistes gaynsay the saluation of the first man And do you not sée that he disputeth against that Heresie in the said place li. 3. euen from cap. 33. to 39. But you haue another place of his Iren. lib. 5. in fine where he plainly ouerthroweth our fantasie in that he saith of the place where Christes soule was those thrée dayes that it was suche a place as all his disciples shall rest in vntill the time of the generall Resurrection He saith not so he disputeth agaynst those old Heretikes Who said that immediatly assoone as they were dead they ascended aboue heauen and aboue the Creator and came to the mother or to their fayned father leauing their body for euer neuer to rise againe and therefore attayning al perfection and the highest promotion at once S. Irenée therfore auoucheth against them not only the Resurrection but also the order of the Resurrection and saith that if this were so then our Lorde giuing vp his Ghost vpon the Crosse would straight haue gone vpwarde leauing his body to the earth But he did not so Three dayes he conuersed where the dead were in the inferior parts of the earth in the middest of the shadow of death And then after that he arose corporally and after his resurrection was assumpted Séeing therefore no disciple is aboue his master saith he it is manifest by this that also his disciples soules shall goe he saith not into the same place but in inuisibilem locum definitum eis a deo into an inuisible place appoynted for them by God and there shall tarrie vntill the resurrection abiding the resurrection and afterwards receiuing agayne their bodies and rising perfectly that is corporally sic venient ad conspectum Dei so shall come to the sight of God to wit the whole man both in soule and body So he may well be vnderstood because the Soule of Christ also had the sight of God before his Resurrection Yet supposing that he thought neither so muche as the Soules to sée God before the Resurrection as some other Doctors did thinke vntill it was of late defined by the Church as I noted afore in the eight chapter yet that doth not declare as you pretende that he thought of Limbus Patrum otherwise then we do For you heard him saye afore that Adam at our Lordes comming was released out of that place béeing a place of captiuitie and nowe by him his soule is in that other inuisible place Whereof it followeth manifestly that by him the former place is not al one with the later And so thankes be to God I haue fully answered all that you alleage against Purgatorie or any other Article of the Catholike faith according to my promise in the beginning of this Chapter Whereby the Reader may perceaue perfect vnitie of faith to be betwixt the Fathers then and vs now notwithstanding all that you could bring And that so euidently that in most matters in most of the Fathers you were faine to pretend no lesse that one and the same man was not in vnitie with him selfe so that this chapter néeded not so much for defense of our doctrine as for the defense of the Doctors them selues against your childish and arrogant detractions ¶ The tenth Chapter That notwithstanding all which Fulke hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues and likewise euery one of those Articles standeth still in his force Euery one I say and much more al of them to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant BY the Summes or Argumentes of the chapters aforegoing the Reader may perceaue that being laide together they make a manifolde euident demonstration to the condemnation of the
damned * Fulke vvil auouch this out of Heb. v. in his Reply for euer also This is the doctrine of that beast as D. Allen doth most worthily call him for it against our Sauiours corporall death which was his onely death and that in many of his impious bookes and namely in that Catechisme which they haue ioyned with their French Bibles in the end belike that it may among fooles créepe in time into Canonicall authoritie as alreadie Luther with the Lutherans and Caluine with the Caluinistes is péere to the Apostles them selues And for touching of this doctrine it is that Fulke more zealous for Caluine then for Christ goulpeth vp such geare against D. Allen as the Reader may sée in the place falsifying also D. Allens wordes because otherwise he had no marke to shoote at as though he had said Caluine to affirme that Christ went downe into hell after his death Whereas D. Allen saith nothing of the time when he descended by Caluin but onely of the hellike torments which Caluine buildeth vpon his descending Howbeit I would aske Fulke why it is such a mysterie that Christes soule was in damnation for the time vpon the Crosse and not also and rather after his death for the time vntill his resurrection specially considering that in the Créede Crucifixus goeth before Sepultus and Descendit ad inferos followeth Sepultus as also commonly in the Scriptures the time of his Soule in hell is made concurrant with the time of his body in the graue And who séeth not thereby that the Catholikes interpretation is also most naturall and proper that after Mortuus which signifieth the separation of his body and soule by death followeth Sepultus to shewe where his body was afterwardes Descendit ad inferos to tell where his Soule was afterwardes though not in damnation according to these mens new blasphemie vntill both were conioyned againe in his Resurrection as there it followeth immediately Tertia die resurrexit a mortuis Thus I am faine to stand long vpon euery point be it neuer so absurd and impious against our Lord God him selfe and against our onely Redēption in his bloud For they can wrest the Scriptures to such poyntes also We should I thinke afore now if this poynt of Christes damnation for our Redemption had not bene by diuers Catholikes so handled to their shame haue had that other poynt likewise of some Caluinistes made more common that Christ also did despeire in God or blaspheme God or commit some other sinne against God for our Redemption Synod Gē 5. Ses 4. Ses 8. ca. 12. For I sée not but they are already come to say with that old most detestable blasphemous Heretike Theodorus Mopsuestenus master to Nestorius that he had in him fomitem peccati inclination to sinne and that he was not from his conception impeccabilis that is vnsinable considering they say he feared to be damned for euer vnlesse they will say that he was so ignorant to feare a thing that was vnpossible to befall vnto him Which yet them selues can not feare because of their Speciall faith forsooth Pur. 290.296.298 O Lord these blasphemous helhoundes are more worthy to be beaten downe with thunderboltes and so forth as Fulke knoweth how to amplifie but that afore he lacked matter It is no maruell now after this to sée this man so cold for the honor or rather so impiously set against the honor of Christes Mother As first to quit the Heluidians and Antidicomarianitae August ad Quodvult Haer. 84. Epip Haer. 78. Pur. 453. who were by the Primitiue Church condemned as Heretikes for denying her perpetuall virginitie But he notwithstanding saith As for the perpetuall virginitie of the Mother of Christ as we can thinke it is true so bicause the Scripture hath not reuealed it neither perteineth it vnto vs we make no question of it No it perteineth not vnto you to accurse old Heretikes but to ioyne with old Heretikes that perteineth vnto you and also to forge new principles as that same of Only Scripture in their fauour yea and also to contradict your selfe for the matter For but foure lines afore you say All trueth may be proued by Scripture And now of this We can thinke it is true and yet the Scripture hath not reuealed it You might with more honestie haue said that it may be proued by Scripture namely where she saith Quoniam virum non cognosco Because I know not man that is Luc. 1. Au. de san virg ca. 4. because I haue made a vow of virginitie how therfore cā I haue a child But this place you could not aleage you wot for another cause neither do I say that it proueth inuincibly her perpetuall virginitie although it so proue her vow For I know that besides her vow it should be proued that she neuer sinned against her vow nor had a dispensation of God for it Secondly you controll D. Allen Pur. 86.87 where saying that the iustest person sinneth he excepteth Christ and for his honor his mother You thinke it must then be said that he was not sauiour of his Mother and she had no neede of his saluation If you had bene a reader of S. Augustine as you be of Caluine you might haue easily remembred that he saith the very same that D. Allen doth A piece of Pelagius his heresie being that a man may liue without all sinne Au. de nat gra c. 36. he alleaged for it the example of so many iust persons commended in the Scriptures and among the rest our Lord and Sauiours Mother saying that to confesse her without sinne necesse est pietati It is necessarie for him that will not be impious Howe you woulde haue answered him we sée specially thinking you haue Scripture for her sinning because Christ said vnto her Why did you seeke me Luc. 2. Ioan. 2. c. and What to me and thee O woman c. you thinke that Christ here reproueth her and that he had done her wrong herein if she did not sinne You might do well to tell vs what were those sinnes of hers S. Augustine could not sée any there nor els where but saith playnly in his answere to Pelagius although the contrarie had bene for his vantage against him Excepting the holy Virgin Mary of whom for the honor of our Lorde I will haue no question in the worlde when we talke of sinnes Inde enim scimus for by this we know that more grace was giuen to her to ouercome sinne altogether because she was worthy to conceiue and bring forth him whom it is certayne to haue had no sinne The honor of our Lorde is by Fulke his dishonor Where also you sée that her not sinning doth not argue as after your Diuinitie that she had no nede of Christes grace Con. Tri. Ses 6. can 23. but the cleane contrarie that she had so much the more of his grace then any other
body before the generall Resurrection If that be so manifest what els was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha would haue Christ to pray for when she saide thus vnto him But also now I know that whatsoeuer things thou shalt aske of God God will graunt thee To whiche purpose also some auncient writers expound that place But to alleage places is not my intent here it is onely to answere your allegations And now hauing done with all your negatiues we are come to your affirmatiues ij Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmatiue First about certayne foundations of Purgatory and prayer for the dead For breuitie to speake ioyntly of Purgatory and of relieuing the soules that be there your affirmatiue allegations against both are leuied by you partly at the foundation of them partly at the two them selues And the foundations béeing diuerse you haue both seuerall shot agaynst the seuerals and also one common shot against all or many of them in common To eche sorte I shall with the helpe of God whose cause it is make answere most easily and most truely The distinction of Veniall and Mortall sinne And first D. Allen declareth out of the Doctors Pur. 126.127.128 what sinnes may be purged in Purgatory to wit not onely such as are Veniall of their owne nature but also suche as are mortall of their owne nature so that they were in Gods Church remitted afore Fulke sayth that This is manifestly ouerthrowen by the worde of God euen from the foundations For the foundation of this doctrine is the distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes Not so syr the doctrine is that mortall sinnes by the Churches remission become as veniall and you graunt it your self saying All sinnes except certayne of which your good exceptions I shall say more anone by Gods mercy are pardonable or veniall Thus you graunt the doctrine and yet you graunt not the foresaid distinction therfore the distinction is not the foundation of that doctrine but the doctrine may stand well without it But yet for other causes we must be content to sée what you alleage against the distinction The worde of God playnely determineth that euery sinne is mortall deserueth eternall death seeme it neuer so small So you say and you alleage thrée places for it The first Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in the Lawe to fulfill them Deut. 27. I syr but find you in the Scripture no other Curse that is to say payne for sinne but eternall death Is it not written Cursed is euery one that hangeth on tree yet hāging on trée or crucifying Deut. 21. Gal. 3. is not eternall death Agayne euery one in that saying is meant by the Apostles exposition not of Christians but of them onely whiche trust in the lawe for it selfe who in déede can neuer attayne to no remission neither of their mortall nor of their veniall sinnes But we that holde of Christ and of his spirite are in case alwayes to receiue remission whensoeuer we sinne venially 1. Ioan. 1.3 for so we can But we can not sinne mortally holding I say Christ and his spirite And therefore if we do sinne mortally at any time depriuing our selues thereby of Christes spirite the remedie is to séeke for the same agayne by the Sacrament of penaunce and then are we in good case agayne as before Your other two places are these The soule that sinneth shall dye Ezech. 18. and The rewarde of sinne is death Rom. 6. S. Iames giueth vs the meaning of these suche like places where he saith Peccatum verò cum consummatum fuerit generat mortem Iac. 1. Sinne when it is consummate gendreth death But not so soone as it is gendred and yet it is sinne as soone as it is gendred Therefore some sinne there is which yet gendreth not death Marke the order Deinde concupiscentia cum conceperit parit peccatum peccatum verò cum consummatū fuerit generat mortem First commeth the temptation of our concupiscence as it were of a lewde woman Secondly concupiscence when she hath conceiued by obteining some light consent beareth sinne venial sinne Mary thirdly Sinne when it is consummate by our full and perfect consent yéelded vnto it gendreth or bringeth foorth death if the matter be of weight accordingly For els that the lightnes of the matter as an idle worde bringeth not death he sufficiently signifieth in saying that in a weightie matter the lightnes or imperfection of consent doth it not Whether after sinne remitted payne may remayne Now to another foundation to wit That culpa the fault both in Venial and in Mortal sinne may be forgiuen of God and of his Church and yet some payne though not eternall be owing for it sometime so that the same must in such case be in this life eyther payde or pardoned or els in Purgatory it wil be exacted Pur. 45. This is against Ezechiel saith Fulke What time soeuer a man doth truely repent the Lord doth put al his sinnes out of his remembraunce You might haue done well to quote the place where Ezechiel so saith ad verbum The trueth is that in a moment the repentaunce may be so great that there is no more remembraunce at all But Ezechiel if you meane the 18. Chapter speaketh of a longer time so that The wicked man must repent him of all his sinnes and keepe all Gods commaundementes and do right and iustice and then vita viuit non morietur when the day commeth to rewarde euery one according to his workes here He shall liue not dye All his iniquities that he worked I will not remember saith God for his iustice that he wrought he shall liue For otherwise who knoweth not those voyces Psal 24.78 Lord remember not the sinnes of my youth and Lord remember not our old sinnes Are they not the words of men which had already repented them acknowledging neuerthelesse that God may yet remember them Againe you say It is against Dauid Pur. 45.46 Psal 102. The Lord hath remoued our sinnes from vs as farre as the east is from the west Who may not say this for béeing remoued frō eternall damnation although he haue yet to abide neuer so much temporall punishment Howbeit those words as the whole Psalme are not spokē of the time of our first receiuing againe into the fauour of God by absolution but to magnifie his mercy in our finall restitution which shal be at the later day For which cause the Church very aptly singeth that Psalme vpon the feast of Christes Ascention Also out of the New Testament you say The Publicane Pur. 43. the Prodigall childe the Debters all clearely remitted do playnely proue that God frely forgiueth iustifieth rewardeth the penitent sinners without exacting any punishment of them for answering of the debt satisfying for the sinnes abusing his fatherly clemēcie Luk. 7.15.18 You speake here very indefinitely as though God
Apoc. 3. And if you yet doubt by what they ouercome whether by the Lambes bloud alone or also by theyr owne patient confession or affliction vnto death it is written there agayne And they ouercame the diuell by the bloud of the Lambe and by their owne martirdome dia â—on logoâ—â—es martyriâ—s auâ—on and loued not their life euen vnto death Apoc. 12. And S. Paule accordingly calleth it 2. Cor. 4. the mortification of Iesus when the Apostles were mortified for Iesus and saith they carried the same about continually in their bodies that also the life of Iesus might be manifested in their selfe same bodies at the latter day which is the same thing that the Apocalipse calleth to appeare before the throne in white stoles Wherby you sée that as the bloud of Christ so by it martyrdome also worketh such glory For so it foloweth there again This our affliction although it is but short and light operatur worketh vs euerlasting weight of glory exceding measure aboue measure Because affliction here for Iesus doth so wash our stoles or bodies therefore it procureth that they shal be so glorious in the Resurrection this say these Scriptures And so much of the foundations and by occasion of them Now to Purgatorie it selfe and prayer for the dead Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe and praier for the dead whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Limbus patrum Directly against Purgatory prayer for the dead you shoote diuers arrowes or rather cockshotles so deadly are the woundes that your shot doth make First you will proue by many and euident Scriptures that all the Elect do go yea and alwayes from the beginning of the world haue gone straight to heauen therefore neuer no Purgatory neuer no Limbus Patrum Whiche if you can do your skill in the Scripture no doubt farre passeth all the auncient Doctors were they neuer so wel studied therin For they all could not finde so muche as one text that all or any one also went to heauen before Christ yea and not many textes Vide Sander monar li. 7. pag. 518.520 Pur. 57. that any one after him also goeth thither before the generall Resurrection but rather very many textes that vntill the Church within these 300. yeres defined the contrarie made it very probable that none are there till then Well thus you begin That the Fathers of the Old law before Christ were not in hell it is to be proued with manifest argumentes and authorities out of holy Scriptures But first you thinke necessary to answere one text that stoode in your way saying Although they were not nor yet are in perfect blessednesse God prouiding a better thing for vs that they without vs should not be made perfect Heb. 11. By that they of the old Testament wer not made perfect or consummate without vs of the new Testament S. Paule there doth meane euidently that their Soules were not yet admitted into heauen As in that whole Epistle he sheweth that the Old Testament did consummate nothing but contrariwise Heb. 7. Heb. 10. Heb. 9. that it made continually euery yere a commemoration of their sinnes because they remayned still and were not perfectly remitted and therefore that Christe dyed In Redemptionem earum praeuaricationum quae erant sub priore Testamento To buye out the preuarications that were all that while that so at length the heires might attayne the euerlasting inheritance which was promised Heb. 9. Nondum enim propalatam esse Sanctorum viam adhuc priore tabernaculo habente statum For the way into Sancta or heauen was not yet opened vntill the high Priest Iesus entred first thereinto Heb. 10. qui initiauit nobis viam nouam It was he that beganne this newe waye vnto vs who nowe therefore haue fiduciam in introitu Sanctorum Confidence to enter in after him béeing our forerunner into the same Sancta And all this is spoken of our Soules As for our bodies neither yet is the way open vnlesse Sancta were open when onely the High priest entred into them This was the prouidence of God for vs that we should not thinke we come to late if the Fathers soules had beene admitted in before vs. Confer the end of your owne text with the beginning of it Heb. 11. vt non consummarentur and non acceperunt repromissionem Sée how plainly he expoundeth their not consummating to be their not attayning of the promise And what promise Heb. 9. Confer this other place vt repromissioneÌ„ accipiant aeternae haereditatis That the heires might attayne the promise of euerlasting inheritance I might at large declare the same by the whole course of Scripture as D. Allen saith very well but that I am not here to alleage Pur. 439. but only to answere Well then against these most manifest Scriptures let vs heare the manifest authorities of Scripture which you pretend Pur. 57.58 For you say Seeing they all beleeued in Christ they had euerlasting life and entred not into condemnation but passed from death to life Io. 5. To what life but the life or resurrection of their bodies for vntill the last day all the dead are in death but then some shall come forth into resurrection of life some others into resurrection of damnation but he that beleeueth in me hath that is most certainly shall then haue Iohn 11. life euerlasting and commeth not into damnation but passeth from death wherein he hath so long bene to life This is the playne text of that place As likewise in all the New Testament lightly euery where life after corporall death signifieth the resurrection of the bodies where the soules be in the meane time here is neuer a word no nor of the Saintes of the old Testament afore the institution of Baptisme wherevnto beliefe in him giueth now accesse Ioa. 1. and 3 that belieuing in him they may haue life Io. 20. But their state we must gather out of other places of holy Scripture And to what end againe you say was Christ called the Lamb that was slayne from the beginning of the world but that the benefite of his passion extendeth vnto the godly of all ages alike This is your expounding of Scripture by Scripture you are a true man of your word The place is Apo. 13. Whose names were not written in the booke of life of the Lambes that was slaine froÌ„ the beginning of the world CoÌ„ferring it with this place Apo. 17. Whose names were not written in the booke of life from the beginning of the world you perceiue the error of your coÌ„struction It is not said that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world but that all the reprobate shall adore Antichrist when he commeth as the Gospell also saith Mat. 24. that the Elect also should be then deceiued if it were possible Neuerthelesse that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world is true though not in your fond
wide way and the narrow way Mat. 7. If there be but two wayes in this life you say there are but two abiding places after this life In the wide way of breaking Gods commaundementes some go wider then some with infinite varietie yet al in the wide way and these after death go to damnation namely their soules and straight to damnation because they haue nothing to stay thē out of it so much as a minute of an houre In the narrow way of keping Gods cōmaundements some go narrower then some with infinite varietie likewise yet all in the narrow way and these after death go to life though not straight in body none of them neither in soule also many of them because they haue somewhat to stay them out of it for a time to wit temporall debt of veniall sinne also of mortal sinne forgiuen but the due penance not fully payed nor fully pardoned And so you sée that the two wayes of this life stande well ynough with Purgatorie Pur. 436.444 Againe you alleage that it is written of the Iudgement 2. Cor. 5. we shall all stand before the Iudgement seate of Christ to receiue ech of vs the own of his body according as he did either good or euill Not D. Allen but as he alleageth S. Augustine Aug. Ench. cap. 100. Dion Ec. Hier. ca. 7. as also S. Dionisius Areopagita answereth that the Churches praying for the dead is nothing repugnant herevnto because the dead in our Lord in his life deserued that these workes after his death might be profitable vnto him And to this answer you haue no reply to mainteine that Scripture against such prayer Onely you oppose a saying of S. Hierom very fondly as in the next chap. I wil shew Once againe you reason of the Iudgement If Purgatory be so necessary to satisfie Gods iustice by temporall paynes of sinners Pur. 85. according to the time c. and Purgatory shal cease at the day of Iudgement as you affirme out of Augustine how shall the same be satisfied in such as dye immediatly before the day of Iudgement so that they haue not had time inough ther to be sufficiently purged The like may be demaunded of all them which in a moment shal be changed from mortalitie to immortalitie at the very comming of Iesus Christ to Iudgement These questions M. Allen will trouble your head to answere and retayne your former principles Two doughtie questions Where did D. Allen set downe that principle that Purgatory is necessary to satisfie according to the time I finde where he saith Pur. 44. If any debt or recompence remayne to be discharged by the offender after his reconcilement it must needes rise by proportion weight continuance number and quantitie of the faultes cōmitted before Wherby it must of necessity be induced that bicause euery man can not haue time to repay all in his life that there is all or some parte answerable in the world to come Here we haue continuannce of the faultes and time of his life but time of Purgatory that you haue to tell vs where you had it The truth is that a shorte time in Purgatorie will so pay the sinner that it had bene better for him to spende much longer time in penance as in this life also a litle while in fire passeth I trow the payne of longer time in fasting c. Neither is it hard for god to punish one in the shortest time as gréeuously as an other in 1000. yeres Nor again repugnant to his mercy to remit suche punishment at the request of his glorious Saints which is S. Augustines answere to your obiection as he nowe doth to the like for the Churches prayers Aug. de Ci. li. 21. ca. 24.27 Lo what a hard thing it was to answere your Demaundes Whether Faith Hope and Gods Will may stande with Purgatory After these two assaylings of Purgatory by going straight to heauen and by the iudgement there remayneth your third last assault Pur. 421. wherein you say to vs We learne by Scripture that your doctrine is contrary to the faith and hope of Christians And how shew you that Pur. 382. If it be against the hope of Christians to mourne for the dead much more it is against the faith and hope of Christians to pray for them For by our prayer we suppose them to be in miserie whom the word of God doth testifie to be in happines to be at rest to be with Christ Io. 17. Apoc. 14. Neither those Scriptures nor any other by you alleaged as I haue shewed do testifie that all straight after death be so and therefore to suppose some of them to be in miserie and so to pray for them is not proued to be against the worde of God Neither to mourne for some yea and for all is saide to be against Hope I would haue you knowe that they shal rise againe saith the Apostle to the end that you mourne not for them 1. Thes 4. sicut et ceteri qui spem non habent in such sorte as others that haue not hope of their Resurrection So then there is one maner of mourning without hope and there is another maner of mourning with hope and such is our mourneing with prayer When Christ praied for his own Resurrection Psal 15. Act. 2. did that argue him to be voide of hope or rather to haue hope When also we all pray for the generall Resurrection Thy kingdome come and mourne and grone for the dilation do we against hope doe we not rather most manifestly declare oure hope thereby Moreouer you saye there To that which is required of the expresse worde of God forbidding prayers for the dead we answere that all places of the Scripture that forbid prayers without faith forbid prayers for the dead For faith is not euery mans vayne perswasion but an assurance out of the word of God Which because we can not haue in praying for the dead therefore we are forbidden to pray for them This argument supposeth Cap. eodē part 1. that the word of God is onely Scripture which you can not proue as in the one place here aboue I haue declared Againe it supposeth that prayer for the dead is not assured by Scripture which besides the most expresse place of the Machabées and diuers others now shall another euident place control euen the same place that you alleage against vs. Thus you say Pur. 281. We learne out of Gods word that whatsoeuer we do pray for according to Gods wil we shal obteine 1. Io. 5. Therefore this one Hatchet shall cut a sunder al Prayers for the dead are not according to the wil of God and therefore they are not heard at all I denie the Minor you haue not nor can not proue it Yea I say further It is agaynst that which the Apostle there both intēdeth and expresseth to wit that we should pray for our brethren after they be dead if
they ended not their life in sinne because that praying is according to Gods will For it foloweth there immediatly Who so knoweth his brother to sinne he vseth the present tense and not the preterfect tense to haue sinned because his intent is to exhort also the sinner to leaue by time a sinne not to death as one that liued in Schisme but yet was reconciled before he dyed let him after his death request of Christ and life shall be giuen vnto him to one I say sinning not vnto death Sinne there is vnto death I say not that any pray for that because it is not according to Christes will to pray for them that be in hell All iniquitie is sinne and therefore to be diligently auoyded and not so much as one moment to be incurred And there is sinne vnto death As if he would say if you auoyde not that no hope after your death your brethren can not helpe you by praying for you This is the playne and smooth sense of that whole place and so must néedes be because there is no man nor no sinne in this life but we may pray for him and it as neither the Nouatians as bad as they were did denie Onely the Protestantes denie it because they haue no other shift to auoyde this place And therby let any indifferent any Christian man iudge whether this be not a playne place for praying for the dead Fulkes wordes of sinnes in this life and men in this life not to be prayed for and that to be this sinne and sinner vnto death I shall recite in the twelfth Chapter amongst his grossest errors and absurdities Thus I haue answered thanks be to God al his Scriptures against Purgatory and all his arguments made out of the Authoritie thereof both negatiuely and affirmatiuely Cap. 7. part 4. Wherby appeareth to the full the vanitie of his bragges in the last Chapter against the church of God that he could would produce against the doctrine thereof such plaine testimonies of Scripture such Scripture also for the meaning of ech place as by no meanes might be auoyded Whereas amongst all his testimonies you sée there is not one but it hath bene cléerely answered As now in this fourth last part shall be answered likewise with the like helpe of god all other Scriptures that in these two most insolent Libelles in any place vp and downe he alleageth against any other point of the Churches doctrine The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth And first to put all the same in some order for the more vtilitie of the Reader I conceaue all the differences that are betwéene vs and the Protestants in this diuision Some are about the witnesses of Gods word the principles of Diuinitie or groundes of all truth which by them is onely Scripture by vs not onely Scripture but also the Church and certain others whervpon we frame our Motiues to all men to beléeue vs not the Heretikes shewing them that such and such are the principles which they must beléeue and withall that the said principles euery one of them stand for vs and not for the Protestantes Some are about other particular or priuate controuersies Which may be reduced vnto these two heades Good-workes and the Sacramentes the doctrine of which both they corrupt with their new inueÌ„tion of Onely faith Only Scripture and Only Faith as they do the foresaid with their toye of Onely Scripture What Scripture he alleageth about the first sort I haue in the two first partes of this chapter reported them al answered theÌ„ sauing a very few which I reserue to the tenth chapter which shall be of euery Motiue or Demaund apart by it selfe There in these fiue Motiues of Churches Seruice Priesthood with Sacrifice Monkes and Pope I will answere his few Scriptures thervnto belonging Now then concerning the second sort and first Good-workes what he alleageth about them concerneth them partly in generall partly in speciall that is to say prayer fasting or almes About Good-works in generall Iustification Good works in generall it concerneth that he saith They do not iustifie wherevnto he alleageth two places one of S. Paule Pur. 450. the other of Esay We beleue saith he that a man is not iustified by workes but by faith onely Rom. 3. And yet we beleue that good workes are necessary to be in euery man that is iustified A faâ—sarie Iac. 5. The wordes of S. Iames be not as he saieth but expressely against him A man is iustified by workes and not by faith onely Where you sée also that it is in all one sense that works do iustifie and faith The words of S. Paule likewise be not as he saith but thus A man is iustified by faith without the workes of the law That is to say although he haue not euermore done the works which the law commaundeth to wit good works yea although he haue sometimes yea and alwayes done the cleane contrarie to wit all euill works yet let him come to the Catholike faith and he shall there finde a remedie for all and of a wicked and so wicked a man be made iuste all his sinnes and wickednes béeing remitted him This sayth S Paule and the same say we But after he is so iustified he must not do the like agayne he must then kéepe the commaundementes of the Law béeing now by Christ made a new man and able therevnto and by so doing he shall be more iustified as S. Iames saith Conferre these two places of S. Paules also The iustice that is of the Law qui fecerit homo the man that hath done it shall liue by it Rom. 10. ex Leuit. 18. Which is in effect that no man shall liue by it because no man hath done it but all men haue done against it all being borne in sinne therfore not by the works of iustice which we had done but according to his owne great mercy he saued vs by baptisme Tit. 3. Do you marke the tense He speaketh of works before faith where you should haue alleaged of works after faith And so withall is answered your other place Ar. 102. where you say that the Popish Church is not content to be clothed in the white shining silke which is the iustification of Saintes made white in the bloud of the Lambe but with the filthy ragges of mans righteousnes Esai 64. If God conuert your heart that you may returne to your mother the Catholike Churche you shall finde that she will make nothing of all the good workes which you do nowe in Heresie because it is but mans righteousnesse But the good workes whiche afterwarde in the Churche you shoulde haue of her husbande the Lambe where learned you to call them The filthy ragges of mans righteousnes Apoc. 19. He that doubteth whether those Iustifications of the faithfull in the Apocalipse be as I say iust workes the same Apostle if he will conferre places in
terme call the boulke of a thing As for the interior substance that question belonged to his Incarnation not to his assumption whereof nowe they talke Neither may any Logician thinke it straunge for the worde Substantia to be so vsed if he consider well howe the worde Corpus is vsed in the predicament of Quantitie though it be otherwise a species of Substantia But the mysticall likenes saith the Heretike chaungeth at the least his former calling For it is no more named that which it was tearmed before but it is called Body Therefore also the veritie in heauen must be called God and not Body Not so saith the Catholike It is named not onely Corpus Body but also panis vitae Bread of life And so likewise the body in heauen we name it Diuinum corpus viuisicum dominicum docentes non esse commune alicuius hominis c. The diuine and viuificall and Dominicall body teaching that it is not a common one of some mans but our Lordes Iesus Christ who is God and man Where you sée that suche a difference as he putteth betwene our common bodies and our Lord Gods body the like he putteth betwene common bread and this bread of life which therefore with him is Christes body vnder the forme of bread béeing thereby become as properly bread as coÌ„mon bread is bread and not the common substance of common bread which no man can say to be bread of life vj. About the Sacrament of Penance Now to approche nearer to Purgatorie about the Sacrament of Penance the Church of God saith foure things First that by the Priestes absolution the guilt of sinne is remitted and so the penitent reconciled to God and therefore pardoned the eternall payne of hell Secondly that after this remission for all that he may yet be in debt of some temporall payne Thirdly that he may and must pay the same temporall debt by workes of Satisfaction Fourthly that vpon good cause a Bishop may pardon it in parte and the Pope wholly Against these foure points Fulke alleageth saying Absolution Pur 168. But what auayleth this submission to Gods ministers when the Priest doth not by his Absolution take away one houres tormentes in Purgatorie as both M. Allen him selfe in effect confesseth and the master of Sentences also teacheth It auayleth to take away the eternall torments of hell Is that nothing with you When you be in them your saucie tong would giue all the world for the least touch of the fingers ende of Gods Priestes whom now in your hereticall pride you despise farre more then the riche Iewe did poore Lazarus Temporall debt remayning after Absolution Agaynst the second you alleage Augustine and Chrysostome euen against themselues for in the third chapter pag. 16. you confessed them both to stand for Purgatorie which implieth debt of payne after remission of sinnes But go to what saith Austine He saith quoth you of the deaths of Moises Aaron Pur. 42. Aug. in vet Test lib. 4. ca. 53 that they were signes of things to come not punishments of Gods displeasure This is your sinceritie His wordes immediatly afore be these When it is said to them Vt apponantur ad populum suuÌ„ that they should be gathered to their people It is manifest that they be not in the wrath of god which separateth from the peace of the holy eternall societie And thereby it is manifest that also their deathes were signes of things to come which things he there declareth and not punishments of Gods indignation You sée how precisely he speaketh to wit of Gods wrath indignation which punisheth by death to separate from his people for euer least he should haue spoken contrarie to the most manifest texte and to him selfe a litle before where he said that God foretolde them both quod ideo non intrarent that therefore they should not enter into the lande quia non eum sanctificauerunt because they doubted of his gifte that water could flowe of a Rocke And so is the text it selfe moste euidently Nu. 20.27 Deut. 32. You shall not bring this people into the lande but you shall dye because you did not beleeue me because you offended me because you trespassed against me And yet you will not graunt that for their sinne the fault béeing remitted they were punished by death These are they that will not stand agaynst euident Scripture Likewise about the example of Dauid you say Pur. 43. I would wish no better authoritie of the auntient Fathers then euen that which M. Allen him selfe alleageth out of Augustine contra Faustum li. 22. cap. 67. that the punishment of Dauid was flagelli paterni disciplina the chastisement of Gods fatherly scourge as he doth moste playnely declare the same in his booke De pec mer. ac rem li. 2. ca. 23. Is suche authoritie so good to proue that after the fault is forgiuen that is after the sonne is receiued againe into fauour no payne is owing Belike then you scourge your children that offend not aswel as them that haue offended and them also that haue offended you scourge not only after that you haue receiued them agayne into fauour but also after that you haue pardoned them all punishment Then surely are you as wise a father as a diuine No reasonable man but hearing of a fathers scourge would by by gather of it punishment for some offence where you gather the contrarie A fathers scourge ergo no punishmeÌ„t But your author S. Augustine doth not so In the chapter before commending his humility sub flagello dei 2. Reg. 16. vnder Gods scourge when Semei so diuelishly reuiled him he reporteth how Dauid said Meritis suis hoc redditum superno iudicio That this was executed vpon him by Gods iudgement for his desertes that is for the same matters of Vrias wherof he speketh in the place by you alleaged out of the Chapter following and saith that the Prophet Nathan told him quòd acceperit veniam that he had forgiuenes ad sempiternam quidem salutem as to euerlasting saluation But notwithstanding as God had threatened him flagelli paterni disciplina non est praetermissa The fatherly scourges chastisement was not omitted to the end that both for his confession of his sinne he might be deliuered euerlastingly and by such affliction he might be tried temporally Where also he commendeth him for not murmuring agaynst God as if he had sent him a false pardon of his sinnes Intelligebat enim c. For by his profound wisedome he vnderstood but that God was gratious to him confessing and repenting how worthy his sinnes were of euerlasting paynes for the which sinnes being beaten with temporal corrections he saw that vnto him continued the forgiuenes and Phisicke withall not neglected So expresly he saith that he was beaten for his sinnes for his deserts although withall it was Phisicke for him and prâ—bation Neither in the other place De pec mer. doth
Psalme is it not a prayer for thē trow you or was not Purgatorie trauelled into Affrike neither when S. Augustine wrote as aboue because there also they caried their corpses with Psalmes In so much that soone after S. Augustines death Victor bishop of Vtica reporting the lamentable deuastations of the Catholike Churches there by the Arrian king Gensericus Victor de pers Vand. li. 1. fol. 3. b. saith among other things Quis vero sustineat sine Lachrymis c. And who can abide without teares to remember when he commaunded our deads corpses to be caryed vnto burying with scilence without the solemnitie of Psalmes Which lamentation you haue in England renewed to vs with addition also in that our Priests neither with scilence may burie the corpses of our Catholike brethren but your Ministers a Gods name with whom they would not communicate in their life must haue the laying vp of their bodies after their death a disordered folly in you Heretikes and the sinne of Schisme in suche Catholikes as geue consent vnto it Pur. 327. from .323 To these memories oblations and sacrifice for the dead doth belong also the place of Possidonius whiche you saye proueth plainly that it was the sacrifice of thanks giuing that was offered for the commendation of the godly and quiet deposition or putting off of his body Where he writeth of S. Augustine thus Nobis coram positis c. In our presence the sacrifice was offered vnto God Possid in vita Aug. cap. 31. for the cōmending of his bodies deposition and so he was buried Meaning by the bodies deposition not the putting off by death but the laying downe of it in the earth by burying as by leuatio corporis the taking vp againe of the bodies or Relikes of Saintes you might haue perceiued if you had beene skilfull in Antiquitie And by commending the deposition he meaneth the commendation of his soule to God vpon that day as I tolde you before Both which you might haue playnly vnderstoode by that which D Allen in the very same paragraph alleageth out of S. Augustine speaking of his mother Aug. 9. cōf ca. 12.14 Nam neque in eis precibus ego fleui quas tibi fundimus cum offeretur pro ea sacrificiū precij nostri iam iuxta sepulchrū posito cadauere priusquam deponeretur For neither in those prayers did I weepe which according to her request vpon her deathbed memoriam sui ad altare tuum fieri that memory of her might be made at thy altar we made vnto thee O God when the sacrifice of our price was offered for her the corpse nowe standing by the graue before it was laide downe Which place is so plaine that your selfe are faine to confesse that in the celebration of the Sacramēt the error of that time allowed prayers for the dead generally and speciall remēbraunce of some in the prayers namely because S. Augustine ther moreouer desireth God to inspire all his Priestes reading that booke Vt meminerint To remember at thy Altar Monica thy seruant and Patrike once her husband my Parents Repeating the same againe a litle after in these words In ministration of the Communion there was a speciall remembrance of her in the prayers as there was of all dead in the faith a generall memorie So that you vse indifferently these two prayers for the dead generally and a generall memory of the dead because you saw euidently that S. Augustine by remembring of his father mother at the Altar meant praying for them And yet such a cauiller you are Fulke the ansvverer Fulke the replier that D. Allen in saying memoriam sui a memory of her to be a memory for her must be charged with pseudologia as though she would haue her sonne to be a chauntrie Priest to sing for her not béeing able for all your gybing to deny but that he did both himselfe pray for her at the Altar if that be to be a Chauntrie Priest and procure other Priests to do the same Well by this practise about S. Monica the Reader perceiueth how properly you affirmed that it was only thanks giuing which Possidonius reporteth was done for S. Augustine But for al this you say although a memory or prayer was made for her in the celebration of the Sacrament yet was it not offered for hir as a Sacrifice and as a propitiation of hir sinnes No syr doth he not say expresly The sacrifice of our price was offered for her Yea but he expounded before in plaine words A friend of trust for Protestants August de verb. Apo. Ser. 34. that he meaneth thereby nothing els but the foresaid memorie Those plaine words neither you recite out of him nor no man els can finde in him as neither he nor any other reasonable man would vtter such a meaning in such words But these most playne words I find in him in another place Hoc a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia vt pro eis qui in corporis sanguinis Christi communione defuncti sunt cum ad sacrificium salutare loco suo commemorantur oretur This as a Tradition of her Fathers the whole Church obserueth when they which are departed in the cōmunion of Christes body and bloud for the excōmunicate so were not be in their place mentioned at the healthfull sacrifice to pray for them What more Ac pro illis quoque id offerri commemoretur and to expresse that for thē also the sacrifice is offred Of particular Doctors Whether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatory Notwithstanding all this you will néedes haue fooles beléeue that S. Augustine was doubtfull in the matter of Purgatorie notwithstanding also that he so playnly prayeth for his mother Therefore O Lord God Aug. 9. confes 13. setting aside her good dedes for a while for which with ioy I do giue thee thanks Nunc pro peccatis matris meae deprecor te now I beseeche thee for my mothers sinnes for which at this day we also pray for the most Pur. 328. perfect excepting vndoubted Martyrs vntill by Canonization they be knowen to be Saintes Heare me for the medicine of our wounds that hung on the Crosse and sitting at thy right hand intreateth for vs c. So playnely Pur. 327. I say that you confesse this place to proue prayer for the dead vsed by S. Augustine and are fayne to saye It was all but superstition or will worship in him according to the corrupt motion of his owne minde Pur. 270.279.315 Au. ep 64. Enchi c. 110 de cur c. 18. Pu. 54.110 121.161.187 382. In another place also that he alloweth oblations for them that sleepe to profite somewhat Oblationes pro spiritibus dormientium vere aliquid adiuuare credendum est And yet for all this Augustine was very vncertayne you saye very often vnconstant and doubting of it so that Satan whose instrument you make that blessed Doctor was but then laying
Euery mans state we saye both is at his death and shal be at domesday according to his merites in his life Neither he that is clensed in Purgatory hath his merites either multiplied or amplified thereby but onely his veniall sinnes and temporall debtes taken away In the former place his words are these Although Abraham were in hell or in the inferior partes yet he was seuered with a long space betweene so that there was an huge chaos inter iustos peccatores quanto magis impios Betweene the iust and the Catholike sinners how much more the impious Heretikes Vt iustis esset refrigerium peccatoribus aestus impijs vero ardor That to the iust might be ease and heate as it were of the sunne to the sinners but fierie heate to the impious vt ante iudicium quo vnusquisque dignus esset non lateret that which eche sort were worthy of might before the iudgement be partly knowen Now how you can inferre of these words that no man feeleth payne after this life although S. Ambrose him selfe say it expresly in other places but he that shall feele it eternally I sée not Vnlesse perhappes you would binde him to yéelde a reason of Purgatory paynes withall when he yéelded a reason of Abrahams bosome and of the damned Soules hell or els haue him pronounced guiltie of contradiction and Purgatorie by your argument ab authoritate negatiuè quite subuerted From this saying of S. Ambrose we might well passe to the sayings of other Doctors alleaged agaynst Limbus patrum a friend of Purgatories but onely that we must stay a litle while for your pleasure Pur. 142.143 Emis ho. 3. de Epipha Ber. in vita Humberti with Eusebius Emissenus though him you take for a counterfaite and S. Bernard Because these two set foorth very terribly but truly the paynes of Purgatorie therfore with you the one sheweth him selfe an vtter enemie to the release of the same and the other denieth the remedie or remission of them As if you would say that the holy Scripture also where it preacheth Gods iustice denieth his mercy though in other places it preach his mercy no lesse For sée you not S. Bernard as earnest also for the remedie of those paynes where D. Allen alleageth him calling your friends the Apostolicie of his time Pur. 420. Ber. Ser. 66 in Cantica miscreants and doggs for laughing vs to skorne saith Bernard that we baptize infants that we pray for the dead that we require the helpe of the holy Saintes In so much that your self also confesse in another place saying Bernard is of opinion that sinnes not remitted in this world Pur. 194. may be remitted in the world to come Whether Purgatory be only for Veniall sinnes One other litle stay we must make about S. Augustines iudgement Pur. 122.448 being this as you say That Purgatory serueth to purge none but very small and light offences Wheras D. Allen saith that it is for great faultes also which by penance are made small alleaging for it this playne place Quaedam enim peccata sunt quae sunt mortalia Pur. 128. August de ver fal Poen ca. 18. in paenitentia fiunt venialia non tamen statim sanata For there be certaine sinnes which be mortall and in penance be made veniall but not straight healed As oftentimes certen sick persons would dye but for Phisick yet are not straight healed Lanquet victurus qui prius erat moriturus Feeble he is though now to liue and not to dye as before And therefore although one truely conuerted at the poynt of death from his wickednes nequitia c. shall be saued Yet we do not promise him that he shall escape all payne Nam prius purgandus est igne purgationis qui in aliud seculum distulit fructum conuersionis for he must first be purged with the fire of Purgatorie who in this world conuerted but deferred the fruite of conuersion to the other world Studeat ergo quilibet sic delicta corrigere vt post mortem non oporteat talem poenam tolerare Therfore let euery one labour so to amend his sinnes also after his conuersion because he is now as the sicke person past daunger of death but not healed as yet that after death he suffer not such passing grieuous payne You tooke not the paynes to take the booke and reade the place and therefore blindly you say that this Doctors words are playnly of light and smal offences and not of heinous and great offences euen also against your owne eyes that sawe the word Mortalia And againe that the manifest meaning of his words is not of a mortall sinne forgiuen as though he said that it become a veniall trespasse but that a mortall sinne may be pardoned Whereas he speaketh so manifestly of a mortall sinne after penance as of a mortall disease after Phisicke the daunger of soule death in the one as of bodily death in the other béeing now past but the healing behinde and therefore also daunger of Purgatory payne for it behind D. Allen alleageth for the same also Enchir. cap. 71. where S. Augustine affirmeth that Et illa peccata a quibus vita Fidelium sceleratè etiam gesta sed poenitendo in melius mutata discedit Also those sinnes in the which the faithfull haue wickedly lyued but nowe by penance lefte them chaunging their liues to better are after taken away by the same remedies as minima quotidiana peccata breuia leuiaque peccata the least and daily the short and light sinnes to wit among other remedies by the Pater noster which is the dayly prayer of the faithfull Which also in the next world he admitteth ca. 69. and 70. of the said Infanda crimina qualia qui agunt regnum dei non possidebunt Gal. 5. heinous crimes which depriue the parties of Gods kingdome Si conuenienter poenitentibus eadem crimina remittantur If the same crimes be forgiuen them in the Church vpon their due penance then he graunteth I say that such persons also may be saued by Purgatory fire after this life and not they onely that dye with Veniall sinnes This D. Allen there alleageth briefly and you say neuer a word vnto it Pur. 120. Onely you snatch those words which he alleageth among others out of another place to another purpose Illo enim transitorio igne non capitalia Au. Ser. 41. de Sanctis 1. Cor. 3. sed minuta peccata purgantur By that transitorie fire whereof the Apostle saith He shal be saued by fire are purged not mortall but light offences neither considering that he speaketh of purging culpam the fault it selfe for he speaketh against them that continue still in cōmitting mortall sinnes and deceiue them selues with false securitie while they think that peccate ipsa those sinnes may be purged by the transitorie fire them selues afterwards come to euerlasting life Nor knowing that he there also very
adoring her Esa 49.60 licking the very dust of her feete which they are cōmaunded by the Prophet to do vnder paine of Damnation Ar. 17. Discipline And thereupon D. Allen told you that to be the true Church Which exerciseth Discipline vpon offenders in all degrees And that al true the Christian Kings haue and doe obey her accordingly which is an vnuincible argument for vs against you in this Demaund And yet you haue Kings on your side also since the Reuelation of Antichrist Ar. 33.34.32 The Grecian Emperours that were Image-breakers Charles the great who wrote a booke against Images and called Bertrame to declare his mind vpon the Real presence and transubstantiation and those Princes that defended their maried Priests But least we should obiect that it was but in one or two poynts that these did fauour you Edward the third defended Wickleue Also Zisca Procopius defended the Bohemians and George king of Bohemia was depriued of his kingdome by the Pope for defending the Protestants An. 1466. Which is wel towards an hundred yeres before the name of Protestants by your own confession here Dem. 8. and much more before the religion of the Protestants was coyned For though you say Wickleue I wene you will not deny but he was of our Church and Religion yet you may sée in my 40. Dem. that in déede he was not neither also the Bohemians or Hussits But that Edward the third was a Wickleuist who euer heard though I denie not but that Catholike Princes are often times passing negligent in their office and othe to extirpate Heresies vntill by God and his Churches admonition on the one side and by the wast on thother side that Heretikes in time doe make both spiritually and temporally of all Common wealthes they be spurred therevnto The like absurd ignoraunce in stories or rather malice you and your brethren declare in saying that fonde booke against Images to be Charles the greates who was cleane contrarie Cop. Dial. 4. c. 18.19 Sander de Imag. li. 2. ca. 5. an enimie of the Image-breakers as is at large learnedly declared in M. Copes Dialogues Neither is it Carolus Magnus but Carolus rex brother to Lotharius the Emperor An. 840. by Trithemius to whō Bertrame wrote De corpore sanguine Domini Neither was that as the learned thinke for good causes this Hereticall booke which Oecolampadius set foorth vnder Bertrames name And is not this a substantiall reason He declared that he liked not the Real presence and Transubstantiation in that he called Bertrame to declare his mind of that matter How much better may I reason that both the Emperour or King and all Christendome held the Real presence and transubstantiation because this Bertrame durst not but so timerously about the bush after the maner of all heretikes in the beginning go against it as we sée in that booke No no syr As I said before of Nations so I say of Princes If any were euerted he might in some thing fall on your side But those Princes in al countries that were cōuerted from Paganisme also their Successors that continued in their steppes were in no poynt yours but ours in all things 20 In all Persecutions Motiue 15. Article 7. My 20. Dem. is of the persecutions both before the Emperours became Christians also afterwards whē some of thē were peruerted againe with Apostasie or Heresie saying that the Religion which we reade of in those times béeing the Religion of all Martyrs and by Fulkes confession here cap. 2. pag. 4. Pur. 258.312 Ar. 23.24.25 of the true Church is in al poynts ours and in no one poynt the Protestants And to this he hath nothing but only this that all true saints held the foundation Iesus Christ which we do in his sense he doth not in the true sense as I shewed cap. 5. and therefore forsooth it is proued that they all were of his Church notwithstanding he is fayne to say that some of them buylded straw and stubble vpon the foundation they were ours so playnly in many things as he confesseth cap. 3. yea and in all things as I shew cap. 9. In so much as they haue scraped most of their names out of the Callender wherof I shall speake more Dem. 46. Motiue 33. Article 14. 21. Churches In the 21. Demaund I chalenge for ours the auncient Christian churches with their furniture both afore and after the conuersion of the Romane Emperours also in our country namely as in all others And Fulke no lesse chalengeth them to his side here cap. 2. pag. 6. But before we come to the particulers let vs see his answere to D. Allens argument What if it were graunted that all Churches that now remayne Ar. 53. Pur. 339.340 that he addeth whereas D. Allen speaketh generally were buylded by Papists and for Popish vses what haue you wonne thereby As much as néedeth I thinke Why not For the same chalenge might the Idolaters haue made to the Apostles Shew vs a Temple in all the world that was not buylded by Idolaters and to mainteine Idolatrie Were that the same chalenge I pray you The Apostles renounced both those Temples and that Religion you renounce Popish religion but do you also renounce al Churches that now remayne If you do then you renounce also the Churches of the first 600. yeres for innumerable of them as at Rome c. now also remaine But because you may not leaue to vs the Churches of that time also for feare of afterclaps you thinke good to come to the matter and to say But for all your bragges we are able to shew that such Churches as were buylded by true Christians were not buylded to such end as yours are Constātinus Magnus was a true Christian with you also and of him I told you erewhile in the 19. Dem. out of Eusebius that he builded Apostolorum templum A temple of the twelue Apostles in his citie of Constantinople appoynting his owne body to lye in the midle of their 12. shrines Vt defunctus queque precationum quae ibidem essent ad Apostolorum gloriam offerendae particeps efficeretur That also after his death he might be partaker of the prayers whiche there should be offered to the Apostles glory And at his burial accordingly Much people with the Priests preces pro anima Imperatoris Deo fundebant made prayers to God for his soule And likewise to this day we sée saith Eusebius that he enioyeth there the diuine Ceremonies and the Mysticall Sacrifice the societie of the holy prayers This was his end among others and the same was the end of al our Church founders a Pur. 338. to 347. saith D. Allen. Not so saith Fulke for b Pur. 339. Ar. 52.57 Fulk is no babe you may see our Stories testifie that at the first conuersion of this Land to Christianitie the Temples of the Pagane Britons and of the Idolatrous
vs to death for it Ioan. 19. to say we be no Martyrs but Traytors Euen as the perfidious Iewes made as though our Master could not be king ouer our Soules but by Treason agaynst Cesar So the Heretikes say of his Vicare In suche casting of their blasphemous mouthes into heauen they doe but consent to the wicked that shedde the Saintes bloud Those whom Gods Church hath declared to be Saintes it is not Fulke nor his baudy Bale that with all their durt can blotte them out of the booke of life If S. Liberius were once an Arrian might he not be canonized for a Saint repenting afterwards Was not S. Augustine once a Manichée Yet the trueth is as D. Sanders sheweth at large that he neuer was an Arrian nor neuer saide of any so to be but onely by compulsion to haue subscribed to the Arrians against his owne conscience or rather not to the Arrians but onely to the deposition of Athanasius So one or two of the Doctors wrote béeing deceyued with the false rumour that the Heretikes had spredde before the trueth was set out in the Ecclesiasticall Historie But where was your witte when you alleaged against Canonization the example of burning Hermannus the Heretikes boanes who neuer was canonized by commaundement of Bonifacius 8. in Ferraria where they had worshipped him twentie yeres Apocryphally You say king Henry the sixt should haue bene canonized but onely for lacke of money ynough When you bring your authors you shall receiue your answere We can not proue you say that the Pope and our Church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs To make holydayes of them to name them among the Saints in Diptychis in the holy Canon of the Masse is not this proufe sufficient of their canonization yea and that the Primitiue Church which did so canonize them was not your church because you haue taken away their Dyptica and their dayes of S. Laurence I say and of so many other most glorious Martyrs which had suche canonicall memories in the Primitiue Churche also Yea and would take away the Apostles dayes also if you might haue your will as you vttered here in the 22. Dem. in speaking against all dayes of Saintes O but you haue a better waye to know Saints to wit they whose names are written in the booke of life You might do well to set out that booke in print that we might correct our Callendar after it If you haue not the booke it selfe haue you any more certayne way to know who are written in it then is the Churches declaration Or do you allow her testimonie in canonizing some Scripture for Gods word Saint Fulke by his ovvne industrie reiect it in canonizing some men for Gods Saintes But it is great iniurie to the Saintes of God that they be not so accounted while they liue Belike you would be called Saint Fulke that out of hand But for ought that I know you must tarry vntill you extend your doctrine and certaintie of Predestination farther For as yet you teach no more but that your selfe must and do knowe your selfe to be predestinate and so may canonize your selfe for a Saint for euer when you teach that others must know as much of you then blame them if they also do not canonize you And in the meane time blame not the Pope for canonization nor cōpare it to the making of Gods which the Heathen vsed séeing it is no greater a matter then your selfe can doe nor the title greater then men aliue should haue and specially séeing Iohn Hus and Ierome of Prage haue as you say as solemne feastes in your Bohemians Callender as Peter and Paule No man els néedeth to take the paynes your selfe build vp againe with one hand that which you pulled downe with the other 47 Communion of Saintes The next Demaund is about The Cōmunion of Saintes Moti 43. that is to say of all Christians to shew our Countreymen to what a paucitie and against what a multitude they ioyne them selues and that in the matter of saluation or damnation So it is that Fulke doth brag of the most part of Europe here in the 9. Dem. and cap. 9. pag. 177. naming England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia Spayne Italy I denie not but there are Heretikes in al these Countreys at the least in corners And therefore if all Heretikes be of your religion and communion that you may bragge as you doe But the trueth is that euen those Heretikes also which be of your Religion out of England if any be for I doubt whether any will allow a woman to be head of the Church but only your selues to name no other of your peculiar articles yet are they not I say of your communion nor you of theirs as appeareth euidently by this that neither in a Generall Councell if you should hold any you haue authoritie one ouer another no more then two distinct Realmes with their seuerall kings haue authoritie one ouer the other in worldly matters But Catholikes in the meane time whersoeuer they are they be al of one Religion of one communion Therfore to giue the ignorant some light in these matters as S. Augustine said often against the Donatists Aug. de vn Eccl. 3. De pastorib ca. 8. so do I. I say two things first that in all Nations parts of Nations where any of al these Sects are found Catholikes also are found dayly do encrease One example for all of our owne Countrie best knowen to our Countreymen where although they be turned out of all their Churches as in very few others yet the multitude of the people is knowen to be stil Catholike in hart of our communion though drawen against their wills to the contrarie yea and innumerable of them recōciled as all in maner would be who séeth not if they were at their owne libertie Secondly I say that Catholikes are in many Nations and partes of Nations where none at all of the Sectes are or so fewe that they are not to be counted of as in all Spayne all Portugall all Italie most partes of Fraunce many partes of Germanie c. Wherby any man may easily conceiue that the Catholikes at this day in Europe are incomparably more then all the Sectaries put together encreasing withall euery day specially by meanes of Seminaries and Iesuites for the purpose and they diminishing How much more adding to these the Catholikes that be in Africa and in Asia among the old named Christians of those parts And more againe infinitely adding yet the innumerable new Christians in the farder partes of them both conuerted within these fiftie yeres by the Iesuites And agayne the like in Nouo orbe vnder the king of Spayne by the Friers in so much that many yeares since it is written of that alone Surius ad An. do 1558. Tot autem hominū millia in illo nouo orbe Christi c. So
to our purpose at length he saith that the Catholikes must vnderstande that all seruice of any honor and sacrifice is giuen of the Catholike Church together both to the Father and to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost that is to the holy Trinitie For though he that offereth directeth the prayer to the person of the Father this is not any preiudice to the Sonne or to the holy Ghost He declareth it thus because The conclusion of the same prayer for so muche as it hath the name of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost sheweth that there is no difference in the Trinitie Looke in the Canon of the Masse and you shall more easily perceiue his meaning The prayer there beginneth thus being directed to the Father Te igitur clementissime pater c. Therefore ô most mercifull Father with humble supplication we beseech thee for Iesus Christ his sake thy sonne our Lorde c. And it is in the ende concluded thus Per ipsum cum ipso in ipso c. By him and with him and in him is to thee God the Father in the vnitie of the holy Ghost all honor and glory world without ende Amen Wherevpon also among his instructions to his friend Petrus Diaconus which you alleage vnder the name of S. Augustine here cap. 10. dem 24. Fulg. alia◠Aug. de fi◠de ad Pet. Diac. ca. 19 béeing too light in very diuerse companies in his pilgrimage to Hierusalem he sayth Holde most firmely and in no wise doubt but to the Sonne with the Father and the holy Ghost they did sacrifice those beastes in the time of the olde Testament And to him nowe in the newe Testament with the Father and the holy Ghost cum quibus illi est vna diuinitas he hauing one Godhead with them the H. Churche Catholike ouer all the worlde ceasseth not to offer in fayth and charitie the sacrifice of bread and wine c. Therefore you might as well haue charged Christ him selfe for directing so likewise the prayer that he taught vs Our father c. v. Of ministring the blessed Sacrament to Infantes But the other error is he saith a notable error and suche a practise as euen the Papistes them selues will confesse to be erroneous This it was S. Augustine and Pope Innocentius and al the Catholike Fathers of that time and all the Westerne Church yea all the Church excepting none but only the Pelagians ministred the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud to Infantes yea and thought it as necessarie for them as Baptisme to wit that they must receiue it or els they should be damned And will not D. Allen deny this will the Papistes them selues confesse it for so you say boldly but in your boldnesse you open withall your wilfull ignorance Fulke neuer read the Councel of Trent Who would thinke it if your selfe did not by this confesse it that you neuer read the Councell of Trent And what a presumption is this for you to preach yea and to write against the doctrine of the Catholike Church nothing regarding eyther what it is or how it is explicated defended defined by occasion of your heresies of the Catholike Bishops in their Generall Councell As if an Arrian doctor should neuer haue séene the Councel of Nice Well our countrey men may perceiue by this what blind guides they haue of you Reade the Councel of Trent I exhort both you and all other that can specially that halfe of it which is of doctrine and you wil either imbrace it as it is most worthy and as I pray God to giue you the grace or at leastwise you shall better know therby what it is that you must confute where now most of you do commonly fight only with your owne shadowes either of ignorance or which is worse of wilfulnes not knowing what in déede we teache There to our present purpose you shall find the said Councel after that it hath said Trid. Con. Se. 21. ca. 4. That Infantes lacking the vse of reason are by no necessitie bound to the sacramentall receiuing of the Eucharist to declare moreouer and say Neque ideo damnanda est antiquitas c. Neither for all that is antiquitie to be condemned if it practised that maner sometime in some places For as those most holy Fathers had pro illius temporis ratione answerable to that time sui facti probabilem causam a reasonable cause of their so doing so verily that they did it not for any necessitie to saluation without controuersie it must be beleeued This declaration of the Councell may satisfie not onely all Catholikes to whom it is the declaration of the Holy Ghost him selfe but also any other reasonable man to whom it can not possibly be lesse then the declaration of many most learned and most discrete men which knew well what they said and that they could not be therin disproued In so much that Kemnitius the Lutheran Protestant not so much as once toucheth the Councell for this though he write of purpose against the Councell Yet for more satisfaction of all men I say further to open the case particularly The heresie of the Pelagians was that Man or Fréewill of man is still notwithstanding the fall of Adam See A◠ad quo haer 88 lagian◠sufficient of his owne naturall strength without Christ or the grace of Christe to saluation And so consequently they saide children to be borne in innocencie and not in sinne The Catholikes to proue the contrarie of children alleaged the necessitie of their Baptisme confirming it by that Scripture Except one be regenerate of water non potest introire in Regnum Dei he can not enter into the kingdome of God Ioan. 3 The Pelagians séeing so plaine a text confessed they Originall sinne No hereticall pertinacie would not let them but a straunge shifte they had They graunted vpon this text that children vnbaptized should not in déede come into the kingdome of God for lacke of Baptisme but yet for their naturall innocencie without Christ they should haue life euerlasting in a certaine other place out of the kingdome of God The Catholikes replyed against that vaine shift and alleaged this text Ioan. 6 Except ye eate the fleshe of the Sonne of man and drinke his bloud non habebitis vitam in vobis you shall not haue life in you Who now would accuse those Fathers of error Yea who would not admire in them such readines to replye so properly to the purpose or let any man stand vp and say that the Pelagians are not by this confuted and their children excluded as before from the kingdome of God so now also from life and so left in death and therefore in sinne and therefore againe not innocent and all this for lacke of the Grace of Christ in Baptisme But now putting the case that a childe were baptized and then immediately died before he receiued sacramentally the Eucharist who reading innumerable places
of those fathers concerning the force of Baptisme séeth not that they geue to such a childe remission of sinnes and therefore also liuerie from death therefore againe life euerlasting the kingdome of God Or let any man bring me one place of those Doctors speaking to this case of a child I say baptized but not communicated holding the contrarie For betwéen them the Pelagians that was not the case nor the question as I haue shewed but they brought in the Eucharist onely to proue that Baptisme is necessarie to the euerlasting life of children All which by this one place of S. Augustines will be euident euen for your owne purpose also it is plainer then the two places that your selfe alleage Augu. De pec mer. rem li. 1. ca. 20. If a child saith Augustine hauing receaued baptisme depart out of this life soluto reatu cui originaliter erat obnaxius c. Seeing the guilt is loosed to the which he was bond by birth he shal be perfite in that light which with the presence of the Creator doth lighten such as are iustified Peccata enim sola separant inter Deū homines for nothing but sinnes maketh separation betwene God and men and sinnes are loosed by the grace of Christ Then a litle after of the Pelagiās he saith They would geue to children vnbaptised saluation and life euerlasting for cause of their innocencie but shutte them from the kingdome of heauen because they are not Baptized For they haue forsooth a starting a lurking hole because our Lord said not If one be not regenerate of water and the spirit non habebit vitam he shall not haue life but he said non intrabit in Regnum Dei he shall not enter into the kingdome of God Nam si illud dixisset for if he had said that quoth they it had bene so playne that no doubt could haue risen therof How then doth S. Augustine ioyne issue with them herevpon Auferatur ergo iam dubitatio c. Say you so Now then away with doubting let vs heare our Lord not the suspitions coniectures of mortal men Why haue you a plaine word of our Lordes owne mouth for the necessitie of Baptisme also to life euerlasting Dominū audiamus inquam non quidem hoc de Sacramento lanacri dicentem Let vs heare our Lorde I say I graunt he speaketh it not of the Sacracrament of Baptisme sed de Sacramento sanctae c. but of the Sacrament of his holy table quo nemo rite nisi c. And yet neuerthelesse it serueth well to our question of Baptisme because no man commeth lawfully to that table vnlesse he be Baptized Then he bringeth forth the place Except yee eate c. you shall not haue life in you And so he triumpheth saying What seeke we further what can they answere to this if they will not be obstinate By and by he declareth though it were said of baptisme Qui non renatus fuerit He that is not regenerate and here it is not saide likewise He that doth not eate but If you doe not eate as though he spoke to men of vnderstandyng and not to Infantes yet that this place must needes pertaine also to Infantes And so it is euident that although he vnderstande the place of the Sacrament and of Infantes yet he bringeth it not to proue the necessitie of that Sacrament to Infantes but the necessitie of Baptisme to Infantes Marie perceiuing that he might be mistaken of his Reader he doth commonly though it néeded not against the Pelagians insinuate most vigilantly by the waye that in Baptisme it selfe they receyue also the other Sacrament not sacramentally but spiritually that is Augu◠pec m◠3. cap. the effect of the other Sacrament Quoniam nihil agitur aliud cum paruuli baptizantur nisi vt incorporentur Ecclesiae id est Christi Corpori membrisue socientur Because when Infantes are Baptized it is for no other cause but that they maye bee incorporated to the Churche that is to saye ioyned to the bodye and members of Christ See D◠len d◠cha ◠31. pa◠It is so therefore with children by Baptisme as it is with older people by an earnest desyre to the Eucharist for as these haue Votum explicitum an expresse desyre to it so they haue Votum implicitum a close desyre to it and that serueth them both to obtayne the effecte thereof though not in so great measure as if they receyued it also sacramently Neuerthelesse there may be iust causes to keepe it from children generally as there are iuste causes to keepe it sometyme yea at Easter also from some of the older sorte But if antiquitie dyd not counte it necessarye for chyldren at least wyse they gaue it you wyll saye to children and that is contrary to Probet semet ipsum homo 1. Co◠let a man examyne hym selfe before he receyue it Why syr is there anye feare least chyldren that are Baptized come to it vnworthyly that is beyng in mortall synne hath any adultus by penance a better warrant to presume vnto it then a childe by Baptisme Knowe you not howe S. Augustine and the whole Church holdeth that in Baptisme a childe repenteth and beléeueth by others euē so he there also examineth himselfe by others As other repenting and other beléeuing so likewise other examining is not necessarie for a child though for so great a sacrament it be more conuenient And so both the Churche now doth well not to Communicate children they also afore did not ill who did Communicate them who yet were not so many as Fulke doth make them We heard erewhile what the Tridentine Fathers said Falsification by adding Aliquando in quibusdam locis that maner was sometime in some places The third part Concerning the errors that he laieth to the Church of later times and not of old And thus much of the second sorte of errors laid by you to the auncient true Church and not also to the Churche of these later times which you take not to be the true Church Now therefore as it followeth let vs heare and examine the third last sorte of errors such as you lay to this Church of later times and not also to the primitiue Church as you call it meaning the first .600 yeares Which errors wil be so few so light in respect of those which he hath already charged the true Church withall specialy when they are duely scanned Note you that vvould the true Church that it may be both a sure confirmation to the Catholikes and a iust motiue to all others to embrace the Church of this time no lesse then of olde time considering that it is no lesse yea much more vnreproueable of the aduersarie as in déede also of good reason it must so be because more time hath geuen to the Holy Ghost and stil doth geue more occasions to define and declare many pointes that were