then with you in ten and namely to declare the effect of the Sacraments according to the Councell of Trent Sess 8. c. 7. which in another place you cite to such as receaue thē Fiftly argumentes néede not you say playnly The spirituall Priesthood is common to al Christian men and women Pur. 450.451.299 1. Pet. 1. as true it is and against all other Priesthood of any Christian men you say in the same place There is no Priesthood to offer sacrifice propitiatorie but onely the Priesthood of Christ according to the order of Melchisedech Heb. 7. By and by after making vs as in a great absurditie to say Christ is not onely our high Priest according to the order of Melchisedech For euery hedge Priest is of the same order Why you call thē hedge Priests looke you But this cannot be denyed that in the Scriptures and in the Primitiue Church certaine Christian men were Priestes otherwise then Lay men and women as the Apostles S. Timothie S. Hierome S. Cyprian c. And therefore then there was some other Priesthood besydes the spirituall Priesthood which is common to all And therefore againe you haue taken away the Priesthood by your owne confession Sixtly and lastly if to salue this deadly sore you will inuent some third kind of Priesthood I say that the primitiue or fathers Priesthood was according to the order of Melchisedech to offer a sacrifice in bread wine The sacrifice of the Masse as Melchisedech and Christ did And therfore you be against the Priesthood because you be against this Priesthood arguing rayling at it al that you can But we Christians to whom this Priesthood is playnly descended from the Apostles and Fathers none of you all being able to shew any later origine of it regard not your arguments they be but obiections And yet to defend the truth more fully for our Fathers and not onely for our selues we solue them euery one But first that the Reader may see whose aduersarie you be herein he shall heare S. Augustine The Manichée had falsified S. Paule making him to say qui sacrificant Au. cō Ad uer leg prophet li. 1. c. 19.20 1. Cor. 10. daemonijs sacrificant They which sacrifice do sacrifice to diuels quasi omnes qui sacrificant non sacrificent nisi daemonibus as if al that sacrifice do not sacrifice but to deuils He therfore sheweth the Apostle not to say qui sacrificant they which sacrifice but quae sacrificant the things that they sacrifice speaking of the Idolatrers They do sacrifice to the diuels and you therefore are communicantes with the diuels if you eate of those sacrifices euen as Israel secundum carnem the Iudaicall people eating of their sacrifices was therby partaker of the Altar in their Temple Deinde secutus adiunxit ad quod sacrificium iam debeant pertinere Then he followeth and addeth to what sacrifice the Corinthians now must pertaine being Christians and Israel secundum spiritum saying The Chalice of blessing which we doe blesse is it not the Communication of the bloud of Christ The bread which we breake is it not the participation of the body of our Lorde vt intelligerent ita se iam socios esse Corporis Christi quemadmodum illi socij sunt altaris That they might vnderstand themselues now to be Communicātes of the body of Christ so as the Iewes are Communicantes of their Altar And then a few lines after The Churche from the Apostles time by most certaine Successions of Byshops to our time and hereafter doth continue et immolat Deo in corpore Christi sacrificium laudis and doth sacrifice to God in Christes Body a sacrifice of praise Psal 49. For this Church is Israel after the spirit from whom is distinguished that Israel after the fleshe who serued in the shadowes of sacrifices by which was signified the singular Sacrifice which now Israel secundum spiritum doth offer Iste immolat Deo sacrificium laudis c. Psal 109. This Israel doth sacrifice to God a sacrifice of praise not after the order of Aaron but after the order of Melchisedech Nouerunt qui legunt c. Gene. 14. The Readers know what Melchisedech did bring forth when he did blesse Abraham And now they be partakers thereof they see such a sacrifice now to be offered to God ouer all the worlde Mala. 1. Et quod Deum non paenitebit c. And where the Psalme sayeth God will not repent him it is a signification that he will not chaunge this Priesthood for he changed the Priesthood after the order of Aaron And not onely S. Augustine but the whole rancke of the holy Fathers doth teach the same such a Priesthood to be and to continue in the Church to offer suche a sacrifice in the forme of bread and wine tearming it after the order of Melchisedech Pur. 295. in so muche that you also confesse and say Those of the olde Writers which compare the celebration of the Lordes Supper with Melchisedeches bread and wine which you say they call sometime the Sacrifice of bread and wine noting that as though it made against Transubstantiation which vayne collection I haue refuted here cap. 8. pag. 148. and also adding further And yet but a sacrifice of thankesgiuing Whether but for thankesgiuing and not also for procuring mercy I haue here at large examined cap. 9. pag. 196. to 204. But that is nothing to the matter which we haue nowe in hande For a Sacrifice of thankesgiuing is and in the olde Lawe was a Sacrifice no lesse properly then a Sacrifice of propitiation And the Sacrifice of the Crosse was both I trow and therefore the Sacrifice of the Altar to be the one what doth that let but it maye be the other also Likewise a memoriall Sacrifice of Christes passion no lesse then a prefiguratiue Sacrifice is a true sacrifice though it be not called his very passion but by a similitude And therefore al that you alleage out of Augustine Pur. 292.316.320 Chrysostome Cyprian Irenée Iustine Ambrose although they saide all as you woulde haue them that this is a memory of Christes passion and not his passion but only in a mysterie is all nothing to the purpose Pur. 292.294.320.321.326 And therefore you haue yet a better aunswere in store We confesse you saye that of the olde Writers it is commonly called a Sacrifice but vnproperly And howe do you shewe that Because * Ambr. ad virg lapsā De virg l. 1. orat in fr. Satyr one of them saith of a virgine that to her death is vnspotted that her Parentes might count her Hostiam viuam a liuing Sacrifice propitiatricem suorum videlicet delictorum a Propitiatrix or procurer of mercy for their sinnes by making intercession for them to God in heauen You might as well argue that S. Paule in saying Christes body by death to be made a Sacrifice Heb. 10. speaketh
repent And how many such sinnes are there and which In one place you name two Obstinate and wilfull Apostasie and blasphemie against the holy Ghost after them you adde there c. Therefore looking in other places which be those caetera I finde where you name a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 Contempt of all that preach Christ and repentance of our lothsome life past and saye then the which no vice is more mortall nor farther from forgiuenes In another place you name Saule 1. Sam. 16. for whom Samuel was not heard when he prayed and the obstinate Iewes Ier. 7.11.14 Ezech. 14. for whom Ieremy is often times forbidden to pray and the wicked generally because the Lorde testifieth that if Noah Daniel Iob prayed for them they shuld not be heard And you conclude therevpon Therefore there be sinnes for the which the Church ought not to pray and though she should pray yet she should not be heard euen of men remayning in this life Whereby it appeareth that in summe you say that it is vnlawfull to pray for any wicked person of what sorte soeuer his wickednes be so long as he continueth in his wickednes yea and that a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 it is vnpossible for the wicked but to continue in his wickednes Such holsome doctrine you teach and that so often and so constantly yea also abusing the holy Scriptures for the same not onely in those places before noted 1. Ioan. 5. Mat. 12. Heb. 6. but also thrée places more There is a sinne vnto death for which we ought not to pray and He which sinneth against the holy Ghost shall neuer be forgiuen whosoeuer prayeth for him and There be some which sinne so horribly in this life that it is vnpossible for them to be renewed by repentance We were wont to matche you with your fathers the Nouatians Another old Heresie of the Protestants for denying the authoritie of Priestes to remit eyther all sinnes or some certaine sinnes and reseruing it to God alone But now when you say that some sinnes neither by the mercy of God are pardonable we must néedes confesse that you haue outshot them and therefore wonne the game from them What Acesius a Bishop of the Nouatians said to Constantinus the Emperour in the Nicen Councell yéelding the reason of their Schisme you may sée in Socrates who as a fautor of the Nouatians doth report it for their prayse Soc. li. 1. ca. 7.9 That they who after Baptisme fall into that kind of sinne which the holy Scriptures call Peccatum ad mortem Sinne vnto death ought not to be admitted to receiue the Diuine mysteries as other sinners customably were and are admitted after confession and the Priestes absolution but to exhort them to repentaunce or penance and that they looke for hope of forgiuenes not of the Priestes but of god who both can hath authoritie to forgiue sinnes But with you it is vnlawfull as to pray for them so also to exhort them to repentāce hope of forgiuenes at Gods hands Wel it is inough for a Christian man that it is the heresie of the Nouatians which you hold yea a maiori also and that the Catholike Church did then also practise as now The Protestāts also admit al to their Caluines bread by her Priestes to forgeue all sinnes without any such exception and so to admit all to our Lordes Body Yet for more comfort against all desperation I will answere to your places particularly 1. Ioan. 5. I say therefore that Sinne vnto death for the which S. Iohn saith not as you make him but onely thus Non pro illo dico vt roget quis I bidde not any man to pray for that is when one is dead in Mortall sinne and therefore now damned in hell which I shewed cap. 8. pag. 134. out of the text it selfe If that be not inough with you because you say Pur. 273.274 It is a new exposition and not onely voyde of all auncient authoritie but also hath all the olde writers against it and yet you do not nor can not alleage so much as one I say further Au. in r. 19. de Cor. gra ca. 12. it is S. Augustines exposition in diuers places and namely in his Retractatiōs which is much to be noted where to take away occasions from such Nouatians hauing aforetime written that he thought Peccatum fratris ad mortem The brothers sinne vnto death to be oppugning of the Brotherhood and enuying at grace it selfe he sayth Addendum fuit Si in hac scelerata mentis peruersitate finierit hanc vitam It should haue bene added therevnto If in this wicked peruersenes of minde he finish this life quoniam de quocunque pessimo in hac vita constituto non est vbique desperandum For because no man be he neuer so wicked is to be despeired of so long as he is in this life Nec pro illo inprudenter oratur de quo non desperatur Neither is it vndiscretely done to praye for him who is not despeired of Which is all one almost word for word also with that which D. Allen saith Pur. 274. and you gainesay where you say twise I deny your antecedent Heb. 6.10 Of S. Paules place also I gaue the right sense ca. 10. Dem. 24. He speaketh of Lapsi by name that is of such as deny their faith in persecution Of whom alone the Nouatians Heresie against the Priestes Power of forgeuing sinnes was in the first beginning Soc. li. 4. ca. 23. li. 7. ca. 25. as we reade in Socrates and others Now will you that all such dispaire But the Catholike Church in time of the Nouatians would not no nor the Nouatians them selues would so much as I haue shewed neither would S. Paule He saith Impossibile est eos qui prolapsi sunt reuocari ad paenitentiam It is vnpossible for such denyers to be renouated againe vnto repentance To be renouated againe what is that but all which he there said was done once afore to be done againe eos qui semel sunt illuminati they who once haue bene baptized for that Sacrament the Gréekes call Illumination haue also tasted the heauenly gift and bene made partakers of the holy Ghost in the Sacrament of confirmation Act. 2. ver 33.38 and haue tasted in the Sacrament of the Altar the good word of God and the puissances of the world to come For these Sacramentes were and are ministred adultis together with Baptisme And euen so the Fathers constantly expound this place against the Nouatians that it saieth no more but that a sinner can not be rebaptized can not be renouated ad inchoationem Christi to beginne Christ againe or ad fundamentum paenitentiae c. to the foundation of repenting from dead workes and of beleeuing in God of Baptismes and of Hands imposition They be the Apostles wordes in the same place and to them
wel be more remisse therin though yet she kepeth those Ceremonies still Aug. ep 86 Reade S. Augustine ad Casulanum of those matters where also besides this you shall finde also another generall reason according to the diuine wisdome of that most Ecclesiastical doctor to wit that it sufficeth if the Church haue vnitie of faith as it were intus in membris inwardly in her limmes and that she wel may withall haue diuersitie of obseruations as it were varietatem in veste varietie in her queenely garment according to the Psalme Psal 44. Which he speaketh for diuersitie of Ceremonies in sundry places at one time but it serueth for the like diuersitie in one place at sundry times as it is euident As for your boldnes with the Fathers for their Liturgies pronouncing that vndoubtedly they chaunged the auncient truth into their owne lately receiued errors Proc. apud Claud. de Sainctes praef in Liturg. or else why were they not content with the olde forme Proclus Bishop of Constantinople about a thousand yeres agoe answereth your Why telleth you that S. Basill and S. Chrysostome did no more but abridge the Liturgie of S. Iames the Apostle which thrée Liturgies the Councell in Trullo also doth acknowledge and that vpon iuste cause Can. 32. But that with errors they corrupted eyther it or any other forme which was vsed before them if any man be so farre gone so to thinke vpon your light worde for all the most renowmed credite of those Fathers let the studious of truth notwithstanding take the paynes to conferre those Liturgies and they shall easily be able of their owne inspection to controll you Supra pag. 21. as I also before in the third Chapter by playne demonstration disproued you for the same and namely in the very same article that forced you to this absurde and shameles shift v. Of Sacrifice and for the dead Now are we come to your next accusation of the auncient Church concerning Sacrifice concerning the dead The name of Sacrifice Pur. 419. which they coÌ„monly vsed for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke vp of the Gentiles so you say but you proue it not You might as well say that they or the Apostles had it of the Gentiles to name that Sacrifice which Christ offered vpon the Crosse No syr they named it so because it was so and therfore Christ also said not This is I that was borne of the virgine though that were true but This is my body vpon the one Matt. 26. and This is my bloud vpon the other The Apostle also for the same cause saying of him that commeth therevnto vnworthily not that he is guyltie of Christ though that be true 1. Cor. 11. but that he is guyltie of his body and of his bloud because it is such a celebration of his death Wherevpon if you knew what is the sacrificing of a liue thing you should sée that how properly he was sacrificed on the Crosse in an open maner euen as properly he is sacrificed here in a mysticall maner The same Apostle therefore agayne saying that we haue an a Heb. 13. Altar to eate of which place your blindnesse b Pur. 45â— alleageth against this Sacrifice and also calling it c 1. Cor. 10 The table of our Lorde in that forme of speache as he calleth c 1. Cor. 10 The table of the diuels the sacrifice of the Gentiles and the Leuiticall sacrifices likewise the Leuiticall c 1. Cor. 10 Altar Yet you can not find d Pur. 200 289. one word nor one syllable in the Scripture of any Sacrifice instituted by Christ at his last Supper Whereof we shall say more Cap. 10. Dem. 24. Purgatorie But to go forwarde with you to your accusation first of Purgatorie and afterward of Purgatorie fire To proue that Purgatory came of the Philosophers as al most notable heresies did Pur. 416. Tertul. de anima cap 31.32 you alleage out of Tertullian De anima that all Philosophers which graunted the soules immortalitie assigned three places for the soules departed heauen hell and a third place of purifying This argument proueth as well that heauen and hell and the Immortalitie of the soule had their originall of the Philosophers Howbeit also to report the truth there is no word of any third place of purifying but onely that such Philosophers made two sortes of Receptacles to wit Supernas mansiones for Philosophers soules onely and Inferos for all other soules and that about the first they did varie for Plato placed it in aethere Aerius in aëre the Stoikes circa lunam This is all Againe you proue out of Irenéeus that Purgatorie came of Carpocrates the Heretike Iren. li. 1. cap. 24. because he inuented a kinde of Purgatorie and proued it out of that place of S. Mathew Thou shalt not come forth vntil thou hast payd the vttermost farthing Mat. 5. euen as the Papistes do By this argument againe you will winne much honestie Epiph. li. 1. To. 2. Haer. 27. Tertul. de anima c. 17 Ireneus and after him Epiphanius as also Tertullian in your owne booke De anima do write that the Carpocratians helde that a man must wallow in aâ—l the filthe of sinne that is in this world before he can come to life euerlasting and therefore if he haue missed any sinne his soule is reuersed into a body and so againe and againe vntill he haue fulfilled all And for this purpose Iesus they say vsed this Parable of agreeing with the aduersarie in the way Matt. 5. c. Corpus enim dicunt esse carcerem c. For that prison they say is the body and that which he saith Thou shalt not go out thence vntill thou hast payed the last farthing they interprete as if the soule should be turned ouer by certayne Angels from body to body semper quoadvsque in omni omnino operatione quae in mundo est fiat Continually euen vntill it haue bene in all and euery acte of this world vt nihil amplius relinquatur saith Epiphanius ad nefarium quicquam faciendum so that nothing remayne that is abhominable but it is fulfilled Purgatorie fire Pur. 419.418 You goe forward and say that they tooke Purgatorie fire of the Origenistes and the name of Purgatorie of certayne Mediators who about S. Augustines time would accorde Origens error with the erroneous practise of the church For it was Origen that brought in the fire also and that he would buylde as the Papists do See here ca. xij of Christes damnation temporall according to Caluine and as he had better reason then the Papistes haue out of the 1. Cor. 3. This you say but you proue it not Origens error was that hell fire is not an euerlasting fire but onely a temporall fire which should in time purge not onely them that had ended their liues in most horrible sinnes but also the diuels
Apoc. 3. And if you yet doubt by what they ouercome whether by the Lambes bloud alone or also by theyr owne patient confession or affliction vnto death it is written there agayne And they ouercame the diuell by the bloud of the Lambe and by their owne martirdome dia â—on logoâ—â—es martyriâ—s auâ—on and loued not their life euen vnto death Apoc. 12. And S. Paule accordingly calleth it 2. Cor. 4. the mortification of Iesus when the Apostles were mortified for Iesus and saith they carried the same about continually in their bodies that also the life of Iesus might be manifested in their selfe same bodies at the latter day which is the same thing that the Apocalipse calleth to appeare before the throne in white stoles Wherby you sée that as the bloud of Christ so by it martyrdome also worketh such glory For so it foloweth there again This our affliction although it is but short and light operatur worketh vs euerlasting weight of glory exceding measure aboue measure Because affliction here for Iesus doth so wash our stoles or bodies therefore it procureth that they shal be so glorious in the Resurrection this say these Scriptures And so much of the foundations and by occasion of them Now to Purgatorie it selfe and prayer for the dead Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe and praier for the dead whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Limbus patrum Directly against Purgatory prayer for the dead you shoote diuers arrowes or rather cockshotles so deadly are the woundes that your shot doth make First you will proue by many and euident Scriptures that all the Elect do go yea and alwayes from the beginning of the world haue gone straight to heauen therefore neuer no Purgatory neuer no Limbus Patrum Whiche if you can do your skill in the Scripture no doubt farre passeth all the auncient Doctors were they neuer so wel studied therin For they all could not finde so muche as one text that all or any one also went to heauen before Christ yea and not many textes Vide Sander monar li. 7. pag. 518.520 Pur. 57. that any one after him also goeth thither before the generall Resurrection but rather very many textes that vntill the Church within these 300. yeres defined the contrarie made it very probable that none are there till then Well thus you begin That the Fathers of the Old law before Christ were not in hell it is to be proued with manifest argumentes and authorities out of holy Scriptures But first you thinke necessary to answere one text that stoode in your way saying Although they were not nor yet are in perfect blessednesse God prouiding a better thing for vs that they without vs should not be made perfect Heb. 11. By that they of the old Testament wer not made perfect or consummate without vs of the new Testament S. Paule there doth meane euidently that their Soules were not yet admitted into heauen As in that whole Epistle he sheweth that the Old Testament did consummate nothing but contrariwise Heb. 7. Heb. 10. Heb. 9. that it made continually euery yere a commemoration of their sinnes because they remayned still and were not perfectly remitted and therefore that Christe dyed In Redemptionem earum praeuaricationum quae erant sub priore Testamento To buye out the preuarications that were all that while that so at length the heires might attayne the euerlasting inheritance which was promised Heb. 9. Nondum enim propalatam esse Sanctorum viam adhuc priore tabernaculo habente statum For the way into Sancta or heauen was not yet opened vntill the high Priest Iesus entred first thereinto Heb. 10. qui initiauit nobis viam nouam It was he that beganne this newe waye vnto vs who nowe therefore haue fiduciam in introitu Sanctorum Confidence to enter in after him béeing our forerunner into the same Sancta And all this is spoken of our Soules As for our bodies neither yet is the way open vnlesse Sancta were open when onely the High priest entred into them This was the prouidence of God for vs that we should not thinke we come to late if the Fathers soules had beene admitted in before vs. Confer the end of your owne text with the beginning of it Heb. 11. vt non consummarentur and non acceperunt repromissionem Sée how plainly he expoundeth their not consummating to be their not attayning of the promise And what promise Heb. 9. Confer this other place vt repromissioneÌ„ accipiant aeternae haereditatis That the heires might attayne the promise of euerlasting inheritance I might at large declare the same by the whole course of Scripture as D. Allen saith very well but that I am not here to alleage Pur. 439. but only to answere Well then against these most manifest Scriptures let vs heare the manifest authorities of Scripture which you pretend Pur. 57.58 For you say Seeing they all beleeued in Christ they had euerlasting life and entred not into condemnation but passed from death to life Io. 5. To what life but the life or resurrection of their bodies for vntill the last day all the dead are in death but then some shall come forth into resurrection of life some others into resurrection of damnation but he that beleeueth in me hath that is most certainly shall then haue Iohn 11. life euerlasting and commeth not into damnation but passeth from death wherein he hath so long bene to life This is the playne text of that place As likewise in all the New Testament lightly euery where life after corporall death signifieth the resurrection of the bodies where the soules be in the meane time here is neuer a word no nor of the Saintes of the old Testament afore the institution of Baptisme wherevnto beliefe in him giueth now accesse Ioa. 1. and 3 that belieuing in him they may haue life Io. 20. But their state we must gather out of other places of holy Scripture And to what end againe you say was Christ called the Lamb that was slayne from the beginning of the world but that the benefite of his passion extendeth vnto the godly of all ages alike This is your expounding of Scripture by Scripture you are a true man of your word The place is Apo. 13. Whose names were not written in the booke of life of the Lambes that was slaine froÌ„ the beginning of the world CoÌ„ferring it with this place Apo. 17. Whose names were not written in the booke of life from the beginning of the world you perceiue the error of your coÌ„struction It is not said that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world but that all the reprobate shall adore Antichrist when he commeth as the Gospell also saith Mat. 24. that the Elect also should be then deceiued if it were possible Neuerthelesse that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world is true though not in your fond
who expoundeth it of Martyrs which is there saide Blessed are the dead that dye in our Lord now after that the spirite saieth that they shall rest from their labours You reply saying that D. Allen vnderstanding it onely of Martyrs Aug. ca. 9. li. 20. de Ci. calleth Augustine to witnesse thereof but that it is spoken of all the faithfull and therefore ouerthroweth Purgatorie witnesse hereof I will not take of flesh and bloud say you sée what he maketh of S. Augustine but of the holy Ghost Rom. 14. wee all dye vnto the Lorde Your skill in the Scripture is great that make it all one to dye in the Lorde and to dye to the Lorde All that dye to the Lorde haue as the Apostle there sayth to make their accompt◠to him which may and will to some fall out to their damnation but blessed are al they that dye in the Lord. Wherefore these two are not all one True it is that all whiche dye well and in the Churches peace dye in our Lord as they are called also dormientes in Christo 1. Cor. 15. and mortui in Christo 1. Thes 14. they that slepe in Christ the dead in Christ wheresoeuer their Soules be after that sléeping and dying in heauen or in purgatorie But yet the place Apoc. 14. is verie well sayd of D. Allen to be spoken not of all that so dye but onely of martirs neither of al martirs but of them onely that shall suffer in the time and rage of Antichrist for so the circumstance of the letter playnlye geueth You therfore that wil haue one place always conferred with another consider the circumstance sée what goeth afore what commeth after and you shall finde that he speaketh of the last time exhorting the faithfull then not for any feare to adore the beast but to dye constantly in our Lorde for now the Resurrection is euen at hand and therefore their labours all at an end Feare the Lord saieth one Angel preaching to all the world at that time and geue honour to him because the very houre of his Iudgement is come and adore him adore not Antichrist And another Angell foloweth saying Cecidit cecidit downe downe is fallen Babilon And another Angell If any adore the beast he shal be tormented in fire and brimstone for euer and euer Then a voyce from heauen Blessed are the dead that will not adore the beast but dye in the Lord. Now after this the Spirite sayth that they shall rest from their labours For their workes that is their rewarde do folow them now at hand And immediatly there after commeth forth the Iudge vpon a white cloude and the Siethes and downe goeth al the world Lo this is the circumstance Wherby you sée the place saith not so much as those Martyrs to be at rest so soone as they dye but onely within a very short time after This is the place that quite ouerthroweth Purgatory And so I haue examined all that you alleage for going straight to heauen Another way you procéede against Purgatory and prayer for the dead by the Iudgement which is after this life Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatory The tree whether it fall to the South or the North Pur. 436.439.441 it lieth euer where it lighteth Eccl. 11. Your cōmentary vpon this place is that the fall of the tree to the south or to the north is the iudgement of God concerning euery man either of rewarde or of punishment which can not be altered after a mans death and therefore by this place prayers be not profitable Why who saith that prayers shall so alter their iudgement Some be iudged to heauen but differred as they in Limbo at the very same time when this was written and others not so good both then and nowe in Purgatory To bring these to heauen wherevnto they be so iudged prayers do serue And this differring is signified by the Wiseman euen in the same place quia post tempora multa inuenies illum He exhorteth them to doe almesdéedes and all other good workes that they can because a great while after thou shalt finde it The trée that fell in the South it may be a good while after before he be all trimmed For not the soule onely but also the body falleth to be rewarded or punished And who séeth not how long after the fall it is before the body haue accordingly Only before his fall let euery one looke to his workes for after the fall Luc. 16. he shal find Chaos magnum a huge distance betwene the north and the south and therefore no possibilitie of remouing from the one to the other This is the sense of that place as D. Allen told you before and your reply against it is tootoo friuolous For you say that then they should alwayes lye in Purgatorie because the certeintie of their saluation is as great before they were borne as after they be dead Certaintie of their saluation that by him the Wiseman speaketh of riseth after their dying in grace of the vnalterable iudgement that by your self the Wiseman speaketh of and it is the impossibility of remouing to the north or to damnation What maketh this against remouing out of Purgatory into heauē which is not remouing out of the south into the north but onely further into the south euen into the finall place that straight after his fall both his soule and body were iudged vnto You argue againe of the Iudgement saying Pur. 281. Immediatly after death foloweth Iudgement but prayers either neede not or boote not when the party is eyther acquited or condemned by the sentence of the Iudge which as S. Augustine saith can not be indifferent betwene reward and punishment De lib. arb li. 3. cap. 23. S. Augustine saith there the contrarie rather as you shall sée if you reade the place And to your argument I say In that iudgement some be condemned to hell for whom prayers boote not Others be acquited from hel and of these some straight rewarded in their soules and so prayers néede not but not yet rewarded in their bodies and for that therfore they pray Apoc. 6. vntill they be heard Apoc. 11. Others not straight rewarded neither in their soules And of these againe some without poena sensus punishment of sense only differred as they in Limbo who prayed accordingly no lesse then the foresaid for the redemption of their bodies Others first to be punished temporally according to their debtes Mat. 5. to wit for being angry or saying Raca and them to be not onely let out of their prison because it is not Gehenna ignis for they said not Fatue but also rewarded for their merites And for these againe while they be in prison prayers as they néede so also they boote because the Iudge is mercifull And so you sée no lesse then thrée sortes which your diuision lacketh Pur. 436.444 And therby at once is answered your other obiectiō of the
Psalme is it not a prayer for thē trow you or was not Purgatorie trauelled into Affrike neither when S. Augustine wrote as aboue because there also they caried their corpses with Psalmes In so much that soone after S. Augustines death Victor bishop of Vtica reporting the lamentable deuastations of the Catholike Churches there by the Arrian king Gensericus Victor de pers Vand. li. 1. fol. 3. b. saith among other things Quis vero sustineat sine Lachrymis c. And who can abide without teares to remember when he commaunded our deads corpses to be caryed vnto burying with scilence without the solemnitie of Psalmes Which lamentation you haue in England renewed to vs with addition also in that our Priests neither with scilence may burie the corpses of our Catholike brethren but your Ministers a Gods name with whom they would not communicate in their life must haue the laying vp of their bodies after their death a disordered folly in you Heretikes and the sinne of Schisme in suche Catholikes as geue consent vnto it Pur. 327. from .323 To these memories oblations and sacrifice for the dead doth belong also the place of Possidonius whiche you saye proueth plainly that it was the sacrifice of thanks giuing that was offered for the commendation of the godly and quiet deposition or putting off of his body Where he writeth of S. Augustine thus Nobis coram positis c. In our presence the sacrifice was offered vnto God Possid in vita Aug. cap. 31. for the cōmending of his bodies deposition and so he was buried Meaning by the bodies deposition not the putting off by death but the laying downe of it in the earth by burying as by leuatio corporis the taking vp againe of the bodies or Relikes of Saintes you might haue perceiued if you had beene skilfull in Antiquitie And by commending the deposition he meaneth the commendation of his soule to God vpon that day as I tolde you before Both which you might haue playnly vnderstoode by that which D Allen in the very same paragraph alleageth out of S. Augustine speaking of his mother Aug. 9. cōf ca. 12.14 Nam neque in eis precibus ego fleui quas tibi fundimus cum offeretur pro ea sacrificiū precij nostri iam iuxta sepulchrū posito cadauere priusquam deponeretur For neither in those prayers did I weepe which according to her request vpon her deathbed memoriam sui ad altare tuum fieri that memory of her might be made at thy altar we made vnto thee O God when the sacrifice of our price was offered for her the corpse nowe standing by the graue before it was laide downe Which place is so plaine that your selfe are faine to confesse that in the celebration of the Sacramēt the error of that time allowed prayers for the dead generally and speciall remēbraunce of some in the prayers namely because S. Augustine ther moreouer desireth God to inspire all his Priestes reading that booke Vt meminerint To remember at thy Altar Monica thy seruant and Patrike once her husband my Parents Repeating the same againe a litle after in these words In ministration of the Communion there was a speciall remembrance of her in the prayers as there was of all dead in the faith a generall memorie So that you vse indifferently these two prayers for the dead generally and a generall memory of the dead because you saw euidently that S. Augustine by remembring of his father mother at the Altar meant praying for them And yet such a cauiller you are Fulke the ansvverer Fulke the replier that D. Allen in saying memoriam sui a memory of her to be a memory for her must be charged with pseudologia as though she would haue her sonne to be a chauntrie Priest to sing for her not béeing able for all your gybing to deny but that he did both himselfe pray for her at the Altar if that be to be a Chauntrie Priest and procure other Priests to do the same Well by this practise about S. Monica the Reader perceiueth how properly you affirmed that it was only thanks giuing which Possidonius reporteth was done for S. Augustine But for al this you say although a memory or prayer was made for her in the celebration of the Sacrament yet was it not offered for hir as a Sacrifice and as a propitiation of hir sinnes No syr doth he not say expresly The sacrifice of our price was offered for her Yea but he expounded before in plaine words A friend of trust for Protestants August de verb. Apo. Ser. 34. that he meaneth thereby nothing els but the foresaid memorie Those plaine words neither you recite out of him nor no man els can finde in him as neither he nor any other reasonable man would vtter such a meaning in such words But these most playne words I find in him in another place Hoc a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia vt pro eis qui in corporis sanguinis Christi communione defuncti sunt cum ad sacrificium salutare loco suo commemorantur oretur This as a Tradition of her Fathers the whole Church obserueth when they which are departed in the cōmunion of Christes body and bloud for the excōmunicate so were not be in their place mentioned at the healthfull sacrifice to pray for them What more Ac pro illis quoque id offerri commemoretur and to expresse that for thē also the sacrifice is offred Of particular Doctors Whether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatory Notwithstanding all this you will néedes haue fooles beléeue that S. Augustine was doubtfull in the matter of Purgatorie notwithstanding also that he so playnly prayeth for his mother Therefore O Lord God Aug. 9. confes 13. setting aside her good dedes for a while for which with ioy I do giue thee thanks Nunc pro peccatis matris meae deprecor te now I beseeche thee for my mothers sinnes for which at this day we also pray for the most Pur. 328. perfect excepting vndoubted Martyrs vntill by Canonization they be knowen to be Saintes Heare me for the medicine of our wounds that hung on the Crosse and sitting at thy right hand intreateth for vs c. So playnely Pur. 327. I say that you confesse this place to proue prayer for the dead vsed by S. Augustine and are fayne to saye It was all but superstition or will worship in him according to the corrupt motion of his owne minde Pur. 270.279.315 Au. ep 64. Enchi c. 110 de cur c. 18. Pu. 54.110 121.161.187 382. In another place also that he alloweth oblations for them that sleepe to profite somewhat Oblationes pro spiritibus dormientium vere aliquid adiuuare credendum est And yet for all this Augustine was very vncertayne you saye very often vnconstant and doubting of it so that Satan whose instrument you make that blessed Doctor was but then laying
often as aboue in his Enchiridion graunteth the same fire to be also for the said mortall sinnes if one haue left committing of them but not yet fully redéemed them poenitentiae medicamentis with the plaisters of penance viij Of Limbus patrum And now we are come to your Doctors that you alleage agaynst Limbus Patrum The one is S. Augustine Pur. 56.60 Au. ep 99. of whose most cleare testimonie alleaged by D. Allen Because the (a) Act. 2. Scriptures make euident mention both of hell and of paynes I see no other cause why our Sauiour came thither according as we beleeue nisi vt ab eius doloribus saluos facerit But to ridde some of the paynes therof Fuisse enim apud inferos in eorum doloribus constitutis hoc beneficium praestitisse non dubito I am out of doubt that he was in hell and that he bestowed that gratious benefite vpon some that were in the paynes therof You are fayne to say that it is but the authoritie of a man But you haue another place a Gods name Where he semeth vtterly to deny that he came in that prison of hell And to make all sure you imagine what we will answere to it and then you make your reply But all besides the text like one that neuer saw the booke For he saith there as plainly as in the other place Fuit apud inferos Christi Anima diuinitas Aug. in Felicianū Arrianū ca. 17 18.15 Both the soule and the diuinitie of Christ was in hell But for what cause Vt anima animas reparet That his soule might repayre our soules and as aboue he said deliuer some soules out of their paynes there But not to suffer any paines there it selfe as the Arrians did blaspheme For if saith he in the words that you alleage his or the good théefes for it may be vnderstoode of either body being dead his soule is immediatly called to Paradise do we thinke any man yet so impious that he dare say our Sauiours soule in that three dayes of his bodily death apud inferos custodiae mancipetur is in hell committed to prison Lo syr what he vtterly denieth to wit that his soule was committed there to prison not that it came in that prison as to deliuer the prisoners Your other Doctor is S. Ireneus whom D. Allen first alleaged saying manifestly Pur. 55.59 Iren. lib. 3. cap. 33. that Adam was Implens tempora eius cōdemnationis quae facta fuerat propter inobedientiam Fulfilling the times of that condemnation which came by disobedience vntill our Lord came and then solutus est condemnationis vinculis he was released of the bonds of his condemnation And you answere that the name of Adam seemeth to be takē in these words rather for a name common signifying all mankinde then for a proper name Iesu how blindly Do you not know that he reporteth li. 1. ca. 31. that the proper Heresie of Tacianus was Adae saluti contradictionem faciens His ignorance that he gainsaide the saluation of Adam and after him S. Augustine Haer. 25. Saluti primi hominis contradicunt The Tacianistes gaynsay the saluation of the first man And do you not sée that he disputeth against that Heresie in the said place li. 3. euen from cap. 33. to 39. But you haue another place of his Iren. lib. 5. in fine where he plainly ouerthroweth our fantasie in that he saith of the place where Christes soule was those thrée dayes that it was suche a place as all his disciples shall rest in vntill the time of the generall Resurrection He saith not so he disputeth agaynst those old Heretikes Who said that immediatly assoone as they were dead they ascended aboue heauen and aboue the Creator and came to the mother or to their fayned father leauing their body for euer neuer to rise againe and therefore attayning al perfection and the highest promotion at once S. Irenée therfore auoucheth against them not only the Resurrection but also the order of the Resurrection and saith that if this were so then our Lorde giuing vp his Ghost vpon the Crosse would straight haue gone vpwarde leauing his body to the earth But he did not so Three dayes he conuersed where the dead were in the inferior parts of the earth in the middest of the shadow of death And then after that he arose corporally and after his resurrection was assumpted Séeing therefore no disciple is aboue his master saith he it is manifest by this that also his disciples soules shall goe he saith not into the same place but in inuisibilem locum definitum eis a deo into an inuisible place appoynted for them by God and there shall tarrie vntill the resurrection abiding the resurrection and afterwards receiuing agayne their bodies and rising perfectly that is corporally sic venient ad conspectum Dei so shall come to the sight of God to wit the whole man both in soule and body So he may well be vnderstood because the Soule of Christ also had the sight of God before his Resurrection Yet supposing that he thought neither so muche as the Soules to sée God before the Resurrection as some other Doctors did thinke vntill it was of late defined by the Church as I noted afore in the eight chapter yet that doth not declare as you pretende that he thought of Limbus Patrum otherwise then we do For you heard him saye afore that Adam at our Lordes comming was released out of that place béeing a place of captiuitie and nowe by him his soule is in that other inuisible place Whereof it followeth manifestly that by him the former place is not al one with the later And so thankes be to God I haue fully answered all that you alleage against Purgatorie or any other Article of the Catholike faith according to my promise in the beginning of this Chapter Whereby the Reader may perceaue perfect vnitie of faith to be betwixt the Fathers then and vs now notwithstanding all that you could bring And that so euidently that in most matters in most of the Fathers you were faine to pretend no lesse that one and the same man was not in vnitie with him selfe so that this chapter néeded not so much for defense of our doctrine as for the defense of the Doctors them selues against your childish and arrogant detractions ¶ The tenth Chapter That notwithstanding all which Fulke hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues and likewise euery one of those Articles standeth still in his force Euery one I say and much more al of them to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant BY the Summes or Argumentes of the chapters aforegoing the Reader may perceaue that being laide together they make a manifolde euident demonstration to the condemnation of the
for sixe hundred yeres almost this land was neuer voyde of Christians Go to then and prescribe vs the forme of this tryall Proue you say that Paule or Simon or Taddeus or Ioseph or whosoeuer first preached the Gospell in this Iland in the reigne of Tyberius the Emperour as Gildas testifieth taught prayers or sacrifices for the dead proue it I say and the daye is yours for euer In this briefe answere one probation may suffice If you require vs to proue it out of the Scripture considering that the Scripture doth not tell of our Landes conuersion you declare your selfe to be but a pratler If other authors will content you what greater ones can you aske then those so many whom here cap. 3. pag. 20. you confesse to witnesse that the Apostles and namely S. Paule cap. 7. pag. 86. lefte that Tradition Another probation thereof you feare if the Brytaines receiued the faith from Rome of Pope Eleutherius which is most certayne as the Englishmen did afterwards of Pope Gregorie And therefore you talke so willingly of the Apostles preaching there afore not considering how that maketh more for vs in that the Brytaines thereby could iudge the better of the matter The Britons begun by the Apostles and Romanes accōplished by Eleutherius and so would not haue receiued from Eleutherius to whom they sent for their accomplishing the contrarie of that which the Apostles so litle before had planted among them Which probation procéedeth aswell although not the Apostles which yet I beléeue but the Christian Romanes to whom they were then subiect began the matter which agayne is most certayne But you are so afrayde of Christ our great kings Citie that is of Rome Pur. 371. the Christian Hierusalem that yet againe you say It were easie to proue by that controuersie which the Britaynes and the Scottes had against the Saxons about the celebration of Easter that our Countrey first receiued their conuersion from the East Church whose ceremonie they did then defende euen as the East Church did long before against Victor Bishop of Rome By which it appereth that this land did neuer receiue the doctrine and ceremonies of the Latine Church before the time of the Saxons But this your reason hath no other ground but onely your owne ignorance in the Historie as I haue noted ca. 2. pa. 4. Where also you haue an euident demonstration that the faith of the Britons first and of the Saxons after was all one because the greatest paynt wherein their Bishops differed from S. Augustine was that same about Easter Sonday in so muche that S. Augustine was very earnest with them to ioyne with him and preach to the Saxons Which according to your imagination had bene as wisely done of him as if we now should moue you considering that you kéepe Easter when we do to preache and teach as you do All this considered no man may maruell to sée you in suche a pecke of troubles about the Religion of the Saxons one while allowing it as it had bene yours another while condemning it Infra ca. 11. cōtrad 50. because it was ours Your allowance you vtter in the very same wordes wherewith here cap. 5. you allow of them that you confesse to haue bene the true Church of which all ought to be that would be saued Thus you say Pur. 335. All that was then taught the Saxons for Christianitie was not false For the Bishoppes and Christian teachers of the Brytish nation whose ayde they that came from Rome required and at last obteined to the conuerting of the Saxons reteined the foundation of faith Iesus Christ and the only sacrifice of his death Againe Pur. 337. Many things and the principal were true that were taught vnto the Saxons Now for vs you confesse and say Pur. 346. You thinke it is the surest way to looke to that faith in all points which this Land first receiued If men should folow your coūsel in some things they should folow your faith which you now teach Namely Pur. 335 336. they receiued vsed vnprofitable prayers for the dead many other superstitious opiniōs Neither doth it folow that all that taught or beleeued those errors so long as they buylded vpon Christ the onely foundation perished If the Saxons receiued prayer for the dead why do you say of the Britaynes whom erewhile you confessed to haue taught them that although Gildas accuse the Priests of his time for seldome Sacrificing Pur. 332. and although the error of praying for the dead were receiued in other places yet whether this Countrie were free from it I am not able to say nor you to proue that it was infected with it Because of these poynts which you confesse and many others that you can not denie Ar. 49. therefore now the English Nation receiued their Religion first from Rome at such time as religion there was very corrupt The Saxons were conuerted by superstitious Romanists Pur. 337.348 Yea as some thinke they were not so much conuerted from Gentilitie to Christ as peruerted from pure Christianity to superstition Sée I pray you they were not onely Christians before but so pure as no other Christian Nation in the world if you remember what he said of all others here cap. 3. And yet againe on the other side were their corruption by those Romanes neuer so great Pur. 335.336.346 Ar. 49. yet such was the faith that was receiued euen of the Saxons that you can shew vs if we will playne and pithy confutations at that time of many poyntes of Popish doctrine and namely that which we count the chiefe the Real presence and transubstantiation yea and direct inuectiues against the Pope and all Popish doctrine Mary in dede that were worth the sight Do you graunt that in some things and namely prayer for the dead they receiued the faith which we now teach yet haue you cards of thē to shew not only against many points of Popish doctrine but against all popish doctrine And what be your cardes Diuers monumentes of antiquitie as Prayers Psalmes Homilies with diuers other smal Treatises and pamphlets in the old English or Saxons tongue in old English written hande and namely that printed Saxon Homily which was appoynted to be read at Easter Belike they were of S. Bedes making for so we reade in his life that he compiled many godly things in the vulgar tongue and not only in Latine and his Homilies to this day are read in the Churches or rather of some his Elders such as he in his Historie maketh mention of because it was one hundred yeres after our first conuersion before Bede him selfe did florish Is this possible thinke you No no. Non sunt rectè diuisa temporibus tibi Daue haec In S. Bedes story and in all his works and al other writers of his time and before his time you find nothing against the Pope nor against any one poynt of
adoring her Esa 49.60 licking the very dust of her feete which they are cōmaunded by the Prophet to do vnder paine of Damnation Ar. 17. Discipline And thereupon D. Allen told you that to be the true Church Which exerciseth Discipline vpon offenders in all degrees And that al true the Christian Kings haue and doe obey her accordingly which is an vnuincible argument for vs against you in this Demaund And yet you haue Kings on your side also since the Reuelation of Antichrist Ar. 33.34.32 The Grecian Emperours that were Image-breakers Charles the great who wrote a booke against Images and called Bertrame to declare his mind vpon the Real presence and transubstantiation and those Princes that defended their maried Priests But least we should obiect that it was but in one or two poynts that these did fauour you Edward the third defended Wickleue Also Zisca Procopius defended the Bohemians and George king of Bohemia was depriued of his kingdome by the Pope for defending the Protestants An. 1466. Which is wel towards an hundred yeres before the name of Protestants by your own confession here Dem. 8. and much more before the religion of the Protestants was coyned For though you say Wickleue I wene you will not deny but he was of our Church and Religion yet you may sée in my 40. Dem. that in déede he was not neither also the Bohemians or Hussits But that Edward the third was a Wickleuist who euer heard though I denie not but that Catholike Princes are often times passing negligent in their office and othe to extirpate Heresies vntill by God and his Churches admonition on the one side and by the wast on thother side that Heretikes in time doe make both spiritually and temporally of all Common wealthes they be spurred therevnto The like absurd ignoraunce in stories or rather malice you and your brethren declare in saying that fonde booke against Images to be Charles the greates who was cleane contrarie Cop. Dial. 4. c. 18.19 Sander de Imag. li. 2. ca. 5. an enimie of the Image-breakers as is at large learnedly declared in M. Copes Dialogues Neither is it Carolus Magnus but Carolus rex brother to Lotharius the Emperor An. 840. by Trithemius to whō Bertrame wrote De corpore sanguine Domini Neither was that as the learned thinke for good causes this Hereticall booke which Oecolampadius set foorth vnder Bertrames name And is not this a substantiall reason He declared that he liked not the Real presence and Transubstantiation in that he called Bertrame to declare his mind of that matter How much better may I reason that both the Emperour or King and all Christendome held the Real presence and transubstantiation because this Bertrame durst not but so timerously about the bush after the maner of all heretikes in the beginning go against it as we sée in that booke No no syr As I said before of Nations so I say of Princes If any were euerted he might in some thing fall on your side But those Princes in al countries that were cōuerted from Paganisme also their Successors that continued in their steppes were in no poynt yours but ours in all things 20 In all Persecutions Motiue 15. Article 7. My 20. Dem. is of the persecutions both before the Emperours became Christians also afterwards whē some of thē were peruerted againe with Apostasie or Heresie saying that the Religion which we reade of in those times béeing the Religion of all Martyrs and by Fulkes confession here cap. 2. pag. 4. Pur. 258.312 Ar. 23.24.25 of the true Church is in al poynts ours and in no one poynt the Protestants And to this he hath nothing but only this that all true saints held the foundation Iesus Christ which we do in his sense he doth not in the true sense as I shewed cap. 5. and therefore forsooth it is proued that they all were of his Church notwithstanding he is fayne to say that some of them buylded straw and stubble vpon the foundation they were ours so playnly in many things as he confesseth cap. 3. yea and in all things as I shew cap. 9. In so much as they haue scraped most of their names out of the Callender wherof I shall speake more Dem. 46. Motiue 33. Article 14. 21. Churches In the 21. Demaund I chalenge for ours the auncient Christian churches with their furniture both afore and after the conuersion of the Romane Emperours also in our country namely as in all others And Fulke no lesse chalengeth them to his side here cap. 2. pag. 6. But before we come to the particulers let vs see his answere to D. Allens argument What if it were graunted that all Churches that now remayne Ar. 53. Pur. 339.340 that he addeth whereas D. Allen speaketh generally were buylded by Papists and for Popish vses what haue you wonne thereby As much as néedeth I thinke Why not For the same chalenge might the Idolaters haue made to the Apostles Shew vs a Temple in all the world that was not buylded by Idolaters and to mainteine Idolatrie Were that the same chalenge I pray you The Apostles renounced both those Temples and that Religion you renounce Popish religion but do you also renounce al Churches that now remayne If you do then you renounce also the Churches of the first 600. yeres for innumerable of them as at Rome c. now also remaine But because you may not leaue to vs the Churches of that time also for feare of afterclaps you thinke good to come to the matter and to say But for all your bragges we are able to shew that such Churches as were buylded by true Christians were not buylded to such end as yours are Constātinus Magnus was a true Christian with you also and of him I told you erewhile in the 19. Dem. out of Eusebius that he builded Apostolorum templum A temple of the twelue Apostles in his citie of Constantinople appoynting his owne body to lye in the midle of their 12. shrines Vt defunctus queque precationum quae ibidem essent ad Apostolorum gloriam offerendae particeps efficeretur That also after his death he might be partaker of the prayers whiche there should be offered to the Apostles glory And at his burial accordingly Much people with the Priests preces pro anima Imperatoris Deo fundebant made prayers to God for his soule And likewise to this day we sée saith Eusebius that he enioyeth there the diuine Ceremonies and the Mysticall Sacrifice the societie of the holy prayers This was his end among others and the same was the end of al our Church founders a Pur. 338. to 347. saith D. Allen. Not so saith Fulke for b Pur. 339. Ar. 52.57 Fulk is no babe you may see our Stories testifie that at the first conuersion of this Land to Christianitie the Temples of the Pagane Britons and of the Idolatrous
vnproperly because he also saith our bodies by mortification to be made a liuing Sacrifice Rom. 12. To knowe what is properly or vnproperly called this or that you should sée to the natures of the things in them selues And then séeing in Christes death open separation of his body from his bloud and in Consecration mysticall separation of them because the words do worke that which they signifie you should say in both those Christes body to be properly a Sacrifice as I told you likewise before cap. 6. pag. 47. but in perpetuall virginitie and other mortification because there is no such separation of our substantial partes but onely of our affections from vs they be called Sacrifices not properly but onely by a metaphore and similitude Well then what obiections haue you now against this Priesthood and Sacrifice of the Fathers and ours Either that it is none at all or that it is not a Sacrifice in Christes body as S. Augustine said First Out of doubt Pur. 294.295 if the bringing foorth of bread and wine had bene anye thing parteining to the Priesthood of Melchisedech the Apostle Heb. 7. would not haue omitted to haue compared it with Christ But the Apostle comparing Melchisedech with Christe in all thinges in whiche he was comparable neuer teacheth it as any part of his Priesthood If it were no part of his Priesthood what was it then It is playne by the text that Melchisedech beeing both a king and a Priest as a king liberally enterteined Abraham and his armie and as a Priest blessed him The text in our vulgar Latine translation is this Proferens panem vinum erat enim Sacerdos Dei Altissimi In your vulgar English translation this He brought foorth bread wine For he was the Priest of the most highest God And in the Hebrew the poynting declareth that also the Rabbins thēselues take it in the same sort as also the very words do signifie specially standing in such order And all our Fathers do agrée Cyp. ep 63. S. Cyprian shall suffice for all who declareth the order of Melchisedech De sacrificio illo venire to come of that Sacrifice not of euery Sacrifice but of that Sacrifice And more distinctly to descende of these thrée thinges quod Melchisedech Sacerdos Dei summi fuit that he was not a common Priest but the Priest of the highest God as S. Iohn Baptists preeminence among al the Prophets is signified by this word Propheta altissimi the prophet of the highest Luc. 1. quod panē vinū obtulit hauing said afore protulit which two you thinke cannot stand together that he offered not as other Priests but bread and wine Quod Abraham benedixit that he blessed not euery body but Abraham the father of al the faithfull of Christ And in déede who is so blinde not to sée the corresspondence in Christ but you onely that are not Abrahams children We Catholikes his children in faith and souldiers in confession of the same do sée playnly before our eyes our true Melchisedech as first by him selfe at his last Supper so stil by his ministers to bring forth bread and wine and thereof as our High Priest to offer for vs this most acceptable Sacrifice and as our king of kings who with so few loaues fed many thousands to prepare for vs this most Royal feast which we can neuer inough admire Mat. 14. 15. so singularly by this blessing both God and vs that the sacrifice and feast it selfe is named Benedictio and Eucharistia Blessing and Thankesgiuing Which S. Cyprian doth there prosecute very swéetely saying For who is more the Priest of the highest God then our Lord Iesus Christ who offered Sacrifice to God the Father and offered the same against those Aquarij who offered water in the Chalice and not wine which Melchisedeth had offered that is bread and wine suum corpus sanguinem his owne body perdie and bloud Also that blessing going afore about Abraham ad nostrum populum pertinebat belonged to our people saith he as a Bishop minister of the true Melchisedech To * The end of bringing foorth vvas to blesse as also S. Augustine said aboue the end therefore that in Genesis the blessing about Abraham might by Melchisedech the Priest be duely celebrated there goeth afore an Image of Christes sacrifice an image I say consisting in bread and wine c. Where is now your argumēt ab authoritate Heb. 7. negatiuè with your out of doubt contrarie to your owne Logike here cap. 8. pag. 134. For besides all this I aske you whether Melchisedeth were a Priest without all sacrifice at all If you say yea your Diuinity is contrary to Heb. 8. For euery high Priest is ordeined to offer giftes and sacrifices Note Wherefore it is necessary hunc habere aliquid quod offerat this Priest also to haue somwhat to offer If you say he had some sacrifice tell vs I pray you how he was comparable to Christ in his Priesthood vnlesse he were also in his Sacrifice considering that his Priesthood consisted in his Sacrifice And so you sée that he was comparable to Christ in some thing to wit in his Sacrifice supposing also that it was not the sacrifice of bread wine in which the Apostle compareth them not What a blindnes is this in you not to sée Melchisedech in his bread and wine so expresly mentioned to be comparable vnto Christ whereas by the Apostle also the very omitting of his father and mother and genealogie is in Genesis a shadowing of Christ séeing also bread and wine so notably vsed in the world by the institution of Christ Such is either your ignorance in the Scriptures or also peruersenes against your owne knowledge Your second argument may be where you take on like Caiphas Mat. 26. and say it is a blasphemie Pur. 298.299 c. for the Fathers and vs to say that we haue the Priesthood after the order of Melchisedech confirmed vnto vs by oth Psal 109. For then you saye we must be Christ him selfe with his eternall diuinitie and euerlasting natiuitie and sitting on the right hand Why syr doth not the Scripture likewise say that there is one Baptizer Ioan. 1. Mat. 3. Hic est qui baptisat and he such a one as vpon whom the holy Ghost cōmeth and abideth and to whom the Father saith This is my naturall sonne Must we then be said to blaspheme VVhat a doctor Fulke is and take al that to our selues if we say that we are baptizers You are a great Doctor forsooth so to argue No syr we are baptizers and priests Aug. de ci li. 17. c. 17. but as his ministers we offer Sub Sacerdote Christo quod protulit Melchisedech Vnder Christ the Priest saith S. Augustine and therfore he singulerly is the one baptizer and the one priest So were not all the rest in the time of the olde Testament the ministers of
of Iamnia for the which God suffered c 2. Mac. 12. ver 32.40 thē to be ouerthrowen after Pentecost by the souldiers of Gorgias And then Iudas sent that money to those vnspotted Priests at Ierusalem to offer Sacrifice for their sinne The chiefe of which Priests in the absence of Iudas him self were his brethren Ionathas and Simon and not Menelaus nor any of those other Apostataes You might haue learned by those bookes that the succession of the true Pontifices or High Priestes for that time was this a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas i Ionathas k Simon And that these others a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason b 2. Mac. 4. v. 24.29 2. Ma. 13. Menelaus c 2. Ma. 4. ver 29.41 Lysimachus g Alcimus were but Antipontifices or false vsurpers against these to wit a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason the author of the Apostasie from the Law against his brother Onias and secondly Menelaus against the same a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias and thirdly Lysimachus brother to Menelaus After the Apostasie thus begun that liuely Image of Antichrist king d 1. Mac. 1. 2. M. 5. v. 11 Antiochus Epiphanes taketh Ierusalem martyreth the Law-kéepers finally setteth vp in the Temple the abhomination of Desolation being a Statuee of Iupiter Against him his riseth the foresaide e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias and after him his sonne f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas Machabeus who repurged the Temple the same day thrée yeres that it was polluted Anno 148. And the next yere Antiochus dyeth his sonne Antiochus Eupator succéedeth with him striueth for the kingdome g Demetrius Soter An. 151. to whom fled the wicked of Israel and Alcimus their Capteine qui volebat fieri Sacerdos to complayne of Iudas g 1 Mac. 7. ver 1.5.9 1. Mac. 9. ver 54.55 Which Alcimus dyed of Gods hand the next yere after the killing of Iudas i 1. M. 9. ve 31.10 v. 18.13 v. 23. and could neuer get Ierusalem the Temple but alwayes after the repurgation it continued in the gouernmēt of Iudas and of Ionathas after him and then of his other brother k 1. Mac. 13. v. 8.36.41.43 Simon Of whose Priesthood also High priesthood the text is playne in their seuerall places here noted in the margine I wil recite the wordes that are written of the last * 1. Mac. 13. ver 42. The yere 170. the people of Israel began to write in their Court-rolles and Records thus Anno primo sub Simone Summo Sacerdote magno Duce Principe Iudaeorum The first yere vnder Simon the High Priest the great Duke and Prince of the Iewes Certaine other poyntes of your grosse or rather malicious ignorance in the Scrirtures are about Antichrist As that the Church of Christ should prepare his way or worke his mysterie that his Reuelation or comming should be so soone after the beginning of the Church and so long before the consummation of the world that the Churches flying into the wildernes in his time should be to be driuen out of the sight of the wicked and knowledge of the world that his raigne should last so many hundred yeres that he should be a Succession of certayne men and not one only certaine person that the Church should be come againe out of the wildernes and yet Antichrist raigning still These are the very foundations of your new Lutheran and Caluinistical Gospell and yet no ground at all for them or any one of them in the holy Scriptures of God but onely in the weake sande of your owne blasphemons but bold asseuerations in presence of fooles who haue auerted their vnhappie yeres away from trueth and conuerted them vnto your fables Againe that the body of Christ is not offered to him selfe but thanksgiuing is offered to him for the offering of his body for vs. Pur. 316. Why Syr did not he vpon the Crosse offer his owne body as a man and a priest to him selfe as to God You noted others here cap. 4. pag. 28. and cap. 6. pag. 63. as for saying that it is not lawfull to pray to God the Sonne and there S. Fulgentius tolde you as the Fathers Créede doth that ech person of the blessed indiuiduall Trinitie Simul odoratur conglorificatur Is with other at once adored and conglorified no sacrifice neither that of Christes body whether it be vpon the Crosse or vpon the Altar béeing priuate to one but common to all thrée Agayne that you call it a vayne amplification and fond supposition Pur. 155. to extend the force of Christes death beyond the limits of his will As though it were not of force to worke any whit more then it worketh in acte as to saue so muche as one of them that shall not be saued Contrarie to this expresse Scripture He is the propitiation for our sinnes 1. Ioan. 2. and not for our sinnes onely but also for the sinnes of the whole world And contrarie to this saying of your owne in another place Pur. 34. Concerning the sufficiencie of Christes Redemption there is nothing can be spoken so magnifically but that the worthinesse thereof passeth and excelleth it Againe that to remit sinnes is proper vnto his Diuinitie As though he Pur. 26. that is to say our Sauiour Christ doth not remit sins according to his humanitie also No maruell to sée you denie this power to his ministers when you denie it to the Sonne of man him selfe Mat. 9. The people in the Gospell vnderstood him otherwise when your fathers the Scribes called it a blasphemie for any to remit sinnes but onely God and the people contrariwise séeing his mirable that he wrought to proue his and his Churches doctrine herein did glorifie God for giuing such power to men hominibus Whervpon he when the time was come gaue commission to his Apostles Ioan. 20. saying As my Father sent me I also sende you Whose sinnes you forgiue they are forgiuen them Againe that pestilent doctrine of desperation wherein you say a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 There be sinnes for which the Church ought not to pray euen of men remayning in this life a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 for which it is not lawfull to pray a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 which by the mercy of God are not pardonable for a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 it is false that so long as men are in this world they maye
damned * Fulke vvil auouch this out of Heb. v. in his Reply for euer also This is the doctrine of that beast as D. Allen doth most worthily call him for it against our Sauiours corporall death which was his onely death and that in many of his impious bookes and namely in that Catechisme which they haue ioyned with their French Bibles in the end belike that it may among fooles créepe in time into Canonicall authoritie as alreadie Luther with the Lutherans and Caluine with the Caluinistes is péere to the Apostles them selues And for touching of this doctrine it is that Fulke more zealous for Caluine then for Christ goulpeth vp such geare against D. Allen as the Reader may sée in the place falsifying also D. Allens wordes because otherwise he had no marke to shoote at as though he had said Caluine to affirme that Christ went downe into hell after his death Whereas D. Allen saith nothing of the time when he descended by Caluin but onely of the hellike torments which Caluine buildeth vpon his descending Howbeit I would aske Fulke why it is such a mysterie that Christes soule was in damnation for the time vpon the Crosse and not also and rather after his death for the time vntill his resurrection specially considering that in the Créede Crucifixus goeth before Sepultus and Descendit ad inferos followeth Sepultus as also commonly in the Scriptures the time of his Soule in hell is made concurrant with the time of his body in the graue And who séeth not thereby that the Catholikes interpretation is also most naturall and proper that after Mortuus which signifieth the separation of his body and soule by death followeth Sepultus to shewe where his body was afterwardes Descendit ad inferos to tell where his Soule was afterwardes though not in damnation according to these mens new blasphemie vntill both were conioyned againe in his Resurrection as there it followeth immediately Tertia die resurrexit a mortuis Thus I am faine to stand long vpon euery point be it neuer so absurd and impious against our Lord God him selfe and against our onely Redēption in his bloud For they can wrest the Scriptures to such poyntes also We should I thinke afore now if this poynt of Christes damnation for our Redemption had not bene by diuers Catholikes so handled to their shame haue had that other poynt likewise of some Caluinistes made more common that Christ also did despeire in God or blaspheme God or commit some other sinne against God for our Redemption Synod Gē 5. Ses 4. Ses 8. ca. 12. For I sée not but they are already come to say with that old most detestable blasphemous Heretike Theodorus Mopsuestenus master to Nestorius that he had in him fomitem peccati inclination to sinne and that he was not from his conception impeccabilis that is vnsinable considering they say he feared to be damned for euer vnlesse they will say that he was so ignorant to feare a thing that was vnpossible to befall vnto him Which yet them selues can not feare because of their Speciall faith forsooth Pur. 290.296.298 O Lord these blasphemous helhoundes are more worthy to be beaten downe with thunderboltes and so forth as Fulke knoweth how to amplifie but that afore he lacked matter It is no maruell now after this to sée this man so cold for the honor or rather so impiously set against the honor of Christes Mother As first to quit the Heluidians and Antidicomarianitae August ad Quodvult Haer. 84. Epip Haer. 78. Pur. 453. who were by the Primitiue Church condemned as Heretikes for denying her perpetuall virginitie But he notwithstanding saith As for the perpetuall virginitie of the Mother of Christ as we can thinke it is true so bicause the Scripture hath not reuealed it neither perteineth it vnto vs we make no question of it No it perteineth not vnto you to accurse old Heretikes but to ioyne with old Heretikes that perteineth vnto you and also to forge new principles as that same of Only Scripture in their fauour yea and also to contradict your selfe for the matter For but foure lines afore you say All trueth may be proued by Scripture And now of this We can thinke it is true and yet the Scripture hath not reuealed it You might with more honestie haue said that it may be proued by Scripture namely where she saith Quoniam virum non cognosco Because I know not man that is Luc. 1. Au. de san virg ca. 4. because I haue made a vow of virginitie how therfore cā I haue a child But this place you could not aleage you wot for another cause neither do I say that it proueth inuincibly her perpetuall virginitie although it so proue her vow For I know that besides her vow it should be proued that she neuer sinned against her vow nor had a dispensation of God for it Secondly you controll D. Allen Pur. 86.87 where saying that the iustest person sinneth he excepteth Christ and for his honor his mother You thinke it must then be said that he was not sauiour of his Mother and she had no neede of his saluation If you had bene a reader of S. Augustine as you be of Caluine you might haue easily remembred that he saith the very same that D. Allen doth A piece of Pelagius his heresie being that a man may liue without all sinne Au. de nat gra c. 36. he alleaged for it the example of so many iust persons commended in the Scriptures and among the rest our Lord and Sauiours Mother saying that to confesse her without sinne necesse est pietati It is necessarie for him that will not be impious Howe you woulde haue answered him we sée specially thinking you haue Scripture for her sinning because Christ said vnto her Why did you seeke me Luc. 2. Ioan. 2. c. and What to me and thee O woman c. you thinke that Christ here reproueth her and that he had done her wrong herein if she did not sinne You might do well to tell vs what were those sinnes of hers S. Augustine could not sée any there nor els where but saith playnly in his answere to Pelagius although the contrarie had bene for his vantage against him Excepting the holy Virgin Mary of whom for the honor of our Lorde I will haue no question in the worlde when we talke of sinnes Inde enim scimus for by this we know that more grace was giuen to her to ouercome sinne altogether because she was worthy to conceiue and bring forth him whom it is certayne to haue had no sinne The honor of our Lorde is by Fulke his dishonor Where also you sée that her not sinning doth not argue as after your Diuinitie that she had no nede of Christes grace Con. Tri. Ses 6. can 23. but the cleane contrarie that she had so much the more of his grace then any other