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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A86467	The grand question concerning the judicature of the House of Peers, stated and argued And the case of Thomas Skinner merchant, complaining of the East India Company, with the proceedings thereupon, which gave occasion to that question, faithfully related. By a true well-wisher to the peace and good government of the kingdom, and to the dignity and authority of parliaments.	Holles, Denzil Holles, Baron, 1599-1680.	1669 (1669)	Wing H2459; ESTC R202445	76,537	221

which not And those Parliaments that the Modus Parliamenti speakes of when a little before the rising of the Parliament Proclamation was made in Publick places to know if any had business to the Parliament if any had Petitioned the Parliament their Petition had not been answered Certainly those Parliaments then did not apprehend to be reproached either with Partiality or deniall of Justice And I would aske this further If they can think that such a Committee of Tryers would have rejected Skinners Petition and have said The Lords can take no Cognizance of your business because it is concerning things done beyond Sea when themselves were a Committee appointed only for such businesses But to let these Sarcasmes pass and see rather what was said and may be said to the more solid objections concerning Magna Charta and those other Statutes which they will have to condemne the Proceedings of the Lords First it may be observed as a thing very strange that in above 400 years since Magna Charta was first made a Law it was never till now found out that the Lords had broken that Law by the exercise of this Jurisdiction nor were they ever charged with it before But besides do they by this any more break it then the Court of Chancery which by a Decree disposes of a mans Lands or the Court of the Constable and Marshall which takes away a mans life or any other Court where the Judge for a Contempt presently sends a man to Prison or claps a Fine on his head so takes both person and Estate or the same House of Lords when it Commits a man upon an Impeachment of the House of Commons Judges and Condemnes him Here is no Judicium Parium that is most certain nor Lex Terrae if you take it for an Original Writ And yet no man will say any of this is contrary to Magna Charta Why then may not the Proceedings of the House of Peers when it punisheth a man for robbing and assaulting his fellow subject in as strange Country which puts the busines out of the Cognizance of the ordinary Courts of Justice receive as favourable a Construction It can not be said that the House of Commons by their taking Cognizance of a Fact by their previous examination of it and declaration upon it giving it the Denomination of Treason or of any other lesser Crime can create a Jurisdiction in the House of Peers which it had not before and give it new power and Authority to pass a condemnation upon the guilty Person yet is it the Ordinary practice of the House of Commons who have a Grand Committee of Grievances for that purpose to impeach men so before the Lords They could receive not long since a Petition of one Taylor complaining against the Lord Mordant for oppression and falss imprisonment and the injurious taking away of an Office from him at Windsor All which were properly tryable in Westminster-Hall yet they could bring this up to the Lords and crave Reparations and Damages in the Name of the Commons of England And the Lords must not though at the Kings recommendation receive a Petition from Skinner and give him relief for his whole Estate by violence and with a strong hand taken from him part at Sea part upon Land in a strange Country in neither of which the Courts of Westminister can afford him any help For this must be against Magna Charta So rather then the Lords shall do it this must be a Failer of Justice in the Land the King shall not be able to protect his subjects the oppressor shall go free and the cry of the oppressed shall go up to heaven for Judgment upon the Land because he finds not Justice in it for his Relief But I remember what the Gentlemen of the House of Commons said at the Conference That therefore the Lords should not have given Relief in this Case because there was no remedy at all at Law This Objection hath been already answered therefore I shall not repeat it here only use one Argument more ad hominum that they forget what themselves have done this very Parliament entertaining a Complaint of one Farmer against the Lord Willoughby who is since dead for dispossessing him of his Estate and other wrongs done him in the Barbadoes which could not be tryed in Westminster-Hall which yet they were preparing to bring up to the Lords by way of Impeachment if the Lord Willoughby had not dyed And there is reason to believe that if Skinner had in the like manner applied himself to them there had been no breach of Magna Charta nor no exceptions taken at the great charge of the Subject appealing to the House of Commons and prosecution there though the charge be every whit as great and becomes much greater to the party that prosecutes for when he hath done there then he must begin again in the House of Lords so the charge is double and the Judgement when it comes is never a whit more in Latin to make it a Record then if the business had begun first in the Lords House as much is it without Jury or Appeal and no less danger of the non-execution of the Judgement after the rising of the Parliament In Fine all that is said against the Lords Proceedings now might as well be said against them then And to say the truth if it be well considered it wil be found that the consequence of this opposition should it work it's effect and prevail would be the overturning of the very foundation of all Authority of Parliament that it might then well be said of the whole Parliament that it did sit only to make Laws and give Subsidies But all this proves not the exercise of the Lords Judicature to be warranted by Magna Charta it only saith that other Courts and the House of Commons it self do as bad Which is no Justification of the Lords For to erre with Company is not to be free from fault Let us then see what may be said to clear them all but principally and Chiefly this Judicature of the House of Peers which is the mark shot at And to do this we must examine the Disjunctive proposition in Magna Charta which saith that every man shal be tryed Per Legale Judicium Parium suorum vel per Legem Terrae For if the Lords judge by either of these they are well enough And Sir Ed. Coke shall determine the question whom no man can suspect of partiality for the House of Lords He tells us in his 2. Inst F. 51. That Lex Terrae is Lex Angliae not Voluntas Regis as the Commons said the Kings Counsel would have it to be 3 Car. And less voluntas Dominorum Fot it is not in an arbitrary way the Lords proceed but according to the Law of the Land to punish nothing but what the Law makes punishable and Judge every thing according to Right secundum aequum et bonum So

from the Ships worth and other particulars in a Schedule would have rendred alone above 20000 l sterling yearly Yet I submit that and my whole Sufferings and Concerns to your Lordships Determination in hopes That if I do not receive an adequate Recompence yet I shall by his Majesties Grace and your Lordships direction be enabled by the restoring of my Island Barella in India to reap a future benefit without the East India Companies further molestation or interruption His Majesties late Charter granted the third of April 1661. prohibiting the Company expresly to undertake any thing against any Christian Colonie setled in India before the date thereof October the 6. 1666. Signed Thomas Skinner THe Lords Referrees finding this vast disproportion between the demands and Pretences of the Petitioner and the real loss and damage which he had sustained and the Offers on the other Side of the Company for his Reparation and Satisfaction and seeing no possibility of reconciling them though much pains had been taken in endeavouring it at last resolved to report it back to the King and Councel and made their Report as followeth IN pursuance of his Majesties Order in Councel dated the three and twentieth of March last we have treated with the Governor and Company of Merchants trading into the East Indies and have heard the Councel both of the said Company and Thomas Skinner Complainant in the disquisition whereof we found the said Thomas Skinner to have suffered much wrong by the said Company and their Agents and therefore endeavoured to perswade the said Company to give satisfaction to the Petitioner but there being a great difference between the Petitioners Demands of Reparation for Damages and the Companies Offer towards the same our Mediation proved ineffectual therein As to the Island of Barella in the East-Indies claimed by the said Thomas Skinner We conceive that he ought to enjoy the same and from thence to trade into any part of the world except into England Given under Our Hands the sixth day of December 1666. Signed Gilb. Cant. Clarendon C. J. Roberts Ashley HIs Majestie upon this finding the East-India Company would be brought to no reason thought fit to recommend the business to the House of Peers to do the Petitioner Justice according to the merits of his Cause which Message was brought to the House the 19. of January 1666 by the Lord Privy Seal and all the Proceedings in Councel transmitted thither and withall a Petition from Skinner himself was presented to them setting forth the wrongs done to him by the East-India Company The House of Peers thus possessed of this business Order a Copy of Skinners Petition to be given to the Governor and Company and they to bring in their Answer to it upon Friday the 28 of January They accordingly bring in for Answer a Plea to the Jurisdiction of the House of Lords and say That the Petition is in the Nature of an Original complaint not brought by way of Appeal Bill of Review or Writ of Error nor intermixed with Priviledge of Parliament nor having Reference to any Judgement of that Court therefore offer If it will please to take any further Cognizance of that Cause And then plead over and say That the Company was incorporated by several Charters in the Reignes of Queen Elizabeth and King James and likewise by a Charter from Oliver which excluded all others not Members of the Corporation from trading in any part of the East-Indies within the limits of the said Charter and that therefore if any such Injuries were done it was by vertue of the Charter and whether Criminal or Civil they were for ever released and discharged by the Act of Oblivion The Lords upon debate of this Plea well knowing their own Right to retain even Original causes when accompanied with such Circumstances as this then before them had A poor man oppressed by potent Adversaries by a rich and numerous Society where there was a Peer of the Realm the Lord Berckley of Berckley Gentlemen of great Estates very many wealthy Merchants incorporated in one body driving on a great trade in the Indies with one joynt stock resolved to imploy that whole stock for the destruction of any man that should presume but to touch upon that trade without their leaves which was this poor mans Case in a time when he had been encouraged thereunto by a general Liberty then taken to trade in that Country who after the spoyle of his goods and Plantation there to save his life they having beset his passage by Sea was glad to expose himself to the hazard and charge of a Journey of many thousand Miles over Land to return into England that he might here endeavor to get some reparation for all those losses which that Company with their great purse and power opposed and had already made him spend that little Estate he had left and seven years attendance to prosecute that reparation without any fruite So as to go to Law with them and abide all the delayes and formalities even of the ordinary Proceedings at Law much less what such Adversaries would have raised to him he was no waies able The Lords I say knowing all this and that what was pretended of the Indemnity by the Act of Oblivion was of no validity that Act not at all intended for things of this nature betwixt party and party not relating to the Warr made no difficulty to over-rule their Plea and enter into the disquisition of the Fact and to do the poor man Justice and give Releife if they found cause for it as a work worthy of them much conducing to the administration of the publick Justice of the Kingdome and most agreable to the constant practice of that House from the very beginning of Parliaments Wherefore they appointed Tuesday the 24 of January for the Counsel of both sides to be heard at the Barr. But such art was used so many delayes cast in by the Company and their Counsel as the cause could not be brought to hearing during all that Session of Parliament At the next meeting of the Parliament in the year 1667. Skinner renued his suit and presented a Petition the 30. day of October In haec verba TO THE RIGHT HONOURABLE c. The Humble Petition c. THat in the year 1657. Private Trade being open in the East-Indies the Petitioner set forth his ship Thomas on a trading voyage to the said Indies where being arrived in 1658 he possessed himself of a Ware-house on the River side of Jamby on which his ship rode wherein he put a great part of his goods and also had a house at Jamby and goods therein and purchased of the King of Jamby the Island of Barella and built a house for habitation and had contracted for planting of Pepper and other Commodities thereon That in May 1659. the Agents of the Governour and the Company of Merchants of London trading into the East-Indies by direction of the said Governour