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A06199 Cum bono Deo Raine from the clouds, vpon a choicke angel: or, A returned answere, to that common quæritur of our adversaries, VVhere was your church before Luther? Digested into several meditations, according to the difference of points. Extorted off the author, for stilling the vncessant, and no lesse clamorous coassation of some patmicke frogges, against the lawfulness of our calling. Logie, Andrew. 1624 (1624) STC 16694; ESTC S108810 39,602 80

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the matter prooveth easier with our Adversaries who haue CHRIST with them bodilie still present in the Hostie for-sooth vpon the Priestes intention and the Sainctes and Angles semblablie in their representing Images Nay to deale heere well liberallie with our Adversaries and giue them that that which is but the most ignoble part of the Church which repit or serpit humi which is but a edolating exasciating effigiating or efforming heere but by piece-maile may bee called by the name of the Catholicke Church I pray you may all these particular Churches so diverslie dispersed throughout the whole world gathered of every Trybe Nation Kinred Language bee together and at once pointed at by finger for it is headilie to bee observed how our Adversaries confound in this argument 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 visibile 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 videri taking 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 visibile non de potentia sed de actu c. As to that their Palmarie or maine Argument heere Quod cujus partes omnes sunt visibles ipsum totum tale sit and so that the Catholicke Church must needs bee visible because of the visibilitie of all the particulare Churches Truelie this argument non tam habet paralogismum quam sapit redolet helleborismum as if all the particulare Churches throughout the world Locorum intervallis tam dissitae simul semel digito notari possent But to binde our Adversaries heere I argue thus Quod desideratur vel in toto Physico illud frustra requiritur malè exigitur in to●o mystico That is What is found wanting or is not findable in a physicall bodie is ill required and sought for in a mysticall But so it is vel in toto Physico even in a Physicall bodie quantitatis scilicet ita discretae ut partes longissimis locorum intervallis à seinvicem distent partes omnes simul semel digito notari non possunt Ergo farre lesse is this findable in a mysticall bodie yea in such a bodie quod simul continuum discretum praedicatur esse in Scripturis as which is named by the names of things quantitatis utriusque continuae discretae as of an House of a Flocke c. I leaue to show How the Church may bee called visible and invisible in different regards respectis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 materialis or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 formalis respectu formae internae or externae which externall forme againe variis mutationum vicibus ac gyris obnoxia ac infesta est Quartum Meletema IF so bee That the Church may suffer such eclipse as to her externall forme or visible face as that shee cannot bee espyed and discerned there remaining but a remanent through the election of Grace then it followeth that this demand of our Adversaries Concerning the being of our Church before LVTHER as to that her externall forme or visible face is but idle But wee may see the possibilitie of this hypothese vnder both the Testamentes in the dayes of Eli vnder the olde Testament 1. King 19 and in Sainct Pauls time vnder the newe Covenant Rom. 11. vers 5. Then the question turneth to this to see When and where this case hath behappened the Church wherefore from hence thus I reason In the dayes of Eliah there was a true Church in Israel which the LORDS owne answere returned to Eliah vpon that his complaint instructeth to the full except that seaven thousand Numerus definitus pro indefinito can not make vp a Church with our Adversaries heere who can cut her shorter at tymes to their owne advantage as in their private Communion But so it is this Church suffered eclipse as to her outward forme or visible face for howe could shee else haue escaped even the sight of the Prophet cui erant ad videndum oculi Ergo a Church ceaseth not to bee simplie whilst eclipsed as to her externall forme or visible face Thus you may perceiue evidentlie how our Adversaries heere deceiue the simpler sort vrging still the visiblitie of the Church for what hath alreadie behappened the Church the same case may againe befall her and so their quaestion resolveth in the winde Our Adversaries heere perceiving and feeling themselves straited as touching the Church in Israel are forced to bethinke with themselues of some escape here whitherto to haue their refuge wherefore they grant this to bee true of the Church of Israel or of Samaria but they pretende that there was then a flowrishing Church in Hierusalem vnder the reigne of Asa and Iosaphat godlie Princes and so that this instance proveth nothing for the whole Church vnder the Law For answere First wee alleadge not hitherto that instance that therevpon wee may conclude the generall or in the generall of the whole ancient Church vnder the Law but onlie to proue that these may suffer yea and haue reapse suffered divorce that is That a Church may remaine simplie a Church though eclipsed as to her externall policie outward forme or visible face which our Adversaries flatlie deny because of the errand in hand Next it is sufficient for probation of our Theme and decyding the quaestion betwixt them and vs to prooue this of anie particular Church for why may not the same case befall anie sister Church So frustra sunt Adversarii whereas they except that this alleadged instance by vs prooveth nothing for the Catholicke Church or for the whole Church vnder the Law for wee are not so swollen vp as to acclaime to vs the name of the Catholicke Church but humblie acknowledge our selues but Daughters of that Mother Last ut dejiciamus eos hoc praesidio that wee may driue them from this starting hole I would pose our Adversaries if the Church of Iudah had anie farther Priviledge heere Truelie wee may see Iudah to haue surpassed her Sister Samaria in her abhominations nay to haue exceeded Sodome and her daughters Ezech. 16. yea wee finde her revolts so generall as that Prince Priest and People all in common abandoned the Law of GOD declined from His service fell away to Idolatrie and followed after the same Ezech. 7. vers ultino But because that generals cannot binde nor worke with our Adversaries let vs instance the matter more particularlie Whereas King Ahaz set vp a strange Altar after the fashion of that of Damascus in the house of GOD nay the Priest himselfe Vriiah made it and set it vp at the wicked Kinges commaundement and sacrificed therevpon vnto the gods of the Damasconians yea last whereas this wicked King gathered together the Vessels of the House of GOD brake them and shut vp the doores of the House of the LORD made him Altars in everie corner of Hierusalem and in everie Citie of Iudah made high places to burne Incense vnto other gods 2. King 16. Item 2. Chron. 28. vers 23.24.25 I would pose our Adversaries heere where was the visible face of the Church of Iudah whilst Idolatrie thus occupied and filled the