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A51572 The Messias of the Christians and the Jewes held forth in a discourse between a Christian, and a Iew obstinately adhering to his strange opinions, & the forced interpretations of scripture, wherein Christ the true savior of the whole world is described from the prophets and likewise that false and counterfeited Messias of the Jewes, who in vaine is expected by that nation to this very day, is discovered / written first in Hebrew, but now rendered into English by Paul Isaiah, a Jew born, but now a converted and baptized Christian. Münster, Sebastian, 1489-1552.; Eliazar Bar-Isajah. 1655 (1655) Wing M3039A; ESTC R42183 58,523 257

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virtue as it is said Behold I create new heavens and a new earth and the former shall not be remembred Christian Shall men dye in that Land or shall they live for ever Iew They shall not die by the sword because war shall not be there neither shall there be a naturall death exept after many yeares when a man shall be full of daies but when he shall dye they shall not weep over him as it is written the voice of weeping and mourning shall no more bee heard in Ierusalem Also in that time they shall not say of an old man that hee hath accomplisht his daies untill hee come to the three hundreth or five hundreth yeare and above such as were in the first ages in the beginning of the world But these daies which now in the world are counted for old age shall then bee the daies of youth and men shall bee accounted then as growing children as it is written they shall be fruitfull in old age they shall be fat and flourishing in the contrary manner of old men wherefore it is written elsewhere a child of a hundred years old shall die that is if any man dy in the hundreth year which shall be because of his sin they shall say of him that a child is dead and he expounds it after this manner A child of an hundred yeares who shall sin shall be accused as if he should say the curse of God shall bee upon him Then they shal not build and another inhabit as now it is neither shall they plant and another eat but according to the daies of trees shall the daies of my people be that is in the elect because they onely shall have the longest lives and that not without a miracle but not other people whereupon Ionathan hath interpreted that place thus They shall live as the dayes of trees But our Rabbies say that a living tree doth endure five hundred years Some also say there shall be some change in the nature of corne in the time of the Redeemer that it shall as vines bee preserved in strength and there shal not be need every yeare to sow new corn but it shall be sown onely once as the vine is once planted and after the corne shall bee gathered in the stalks shall remaine flourishing to the next yeare Christian In what place of Scripture did your Rabbies find that Iew In Hosea they shall preserve their corne and it shall flourish as a vine Also in that time if they aske of the blessed God raine he shall give it them and hee will give every man herbes in his field according to his desire Moreover our Masters say that at that time when the Israelites shall do the will of God he wil also do their will so that if any one alone shall have need of raine he will give raine to him alone or if any one shall want raine for one herbe in his field or garden he will give raine to that herbe alone And this is that which is said aske raine of the Lord and hee will give thee plentifull raine for every herb in the field Christian Because you have fallen upon Zachary tell me how you understand those words which are written in it shall the whole earth be turned as into a plaine Iew I will tell you behold all the land about Ierusalem which now is mountainous as it is in the Psalmes shall then be plain like the plainnesse of a champion field and it shall be exalted and be higher than all the land although now it be higher than all the land of Israel by reason of the mountaines which are about it because of which its height cannot be seene But at that time when all the land round about it shall bee made plaine its height shall be seen more than all the Land Wherefore it is said in the prophecy of Isaiah the mountain of the Lord shall be established upon the top of the mountaines and shall be lifted above the hils and many fields which now are nigh Ierusalem shall then be within the wals of the City and that City being built shall never afterwards be destroied as it is written behold the daies come saith the Lord and the City of the Lord shall be built from the tower of Hananeel to the gate of the corner c. it shall not be destroied nor pluckt downe for ever It is said also in the Psalm if the Lord build not the house they labour in vaine who build it But this hee saith of the sanctuary and City of Ierusalem Behold from that day wherein the house of the Lord was wasted and the Israelites led into captivity and the City destroied Ierusalem was now againe rebuilt and now againe destroi'd because it was in the power of the Idumeans and in the power of the Ismaelites and every year war was raised for it they build it and these destroy it againe because it is not the will of the Lord that the Gentiles should keep it built and therefore they labour in vaine who build it and in vaine doe they rise in the morning who keepe it First the Idumeans did subdue Ierusalem afterwards when they were quiet the Ismalites came and made a great war with the christians and tooke the City out of their hands and there was a continuall war between them and that discord paines and labour to possesse the City shall endure untill the Redeemer and King Messias shall come to whom the Lord God shal deliver Ierusalem without all trouble Christian Shall the City and the Temple be then built as Ezechiel saw them in the spirit of Prophecy Iew Yes for he saith thus in the 25 yeare of our captivity in the beginning of the year in the tenth moneth in that day the Lord brought me to the land of Israel and set me upon an exceeding high mountaine upon which there was as it were the building of the City from the south because in the day of mercy God will pardon the iniquity of Israel and will remember their sin no more and the Temple shall be built in the mountaine and the City Ierusalem shall be next to it on the south there the Lord shews Ezekiel the building of the future Temple that the hope of the Israelites might not faile but they might know they should return into their own land and should dwell in it securely and the building of the Temple shall bee much greater then it was at the beginning though it shall not differ in forme and order Christian Ezekiel had this vision in the babylonish captivity before the second house was built therefore it cannot be understood of the building of a third Temple Againe I aske of you at what time of the year shall the Israelites goe into their owne land after your Messias shall come Iew I have told you already namely in the day of propitiation for then God shall pardon
the dew of herbs and the earth shall cast out the dead Where he signifies the second comming of the Messias to judgement when God himselfe in the day of judgement shall raise the dead to life The same is also in the Prophecy of Daniel and many of them that sleepe in the dust of the earth shall awake that is the resurrection of the dead to life shall be common to all the just and the wicked shall also receive their bodies but to be punished in them and in their soules and dye perpetually Moreover when the Prophet saith thy dead hee directs his speech to God and then a voice shall come from heaven and shall say to them awake and sing ye that dwell in the dust So when he saith they dew he speakes figuratively to God for as the dew doth quicken and cause the herbes to grow up so the dew of divine power shall quicken the dead and the earth shall cast forth her dead that is God shall condemne the wicked and thrust them out into hell but the just shall goe with Christ into eternall life and then the present world shall have an end and the elect shall be with God in the Kingdome of heaven for ever and ever but the wicked shall be shut up together with the devill into hell from whence they shall never be delivered as it is said in the same place some shall awake to eternall life but some to reproaches and to perpetuall abomination Behold this is our faith concerning the resurrection of the dead and so also our holy Prophets have taught Iew Our Rabbies also have taught us how we should beleeve but after another manner for they have said the resurrection of the dead shall bee for all the just and for some wicked for the Lord shal cast forth those that be dead that is the wicked to the earth but that cannot give them life Moreover the dead which then the Lord shall raise to life shall not differ from other men in the use of humane life for they shall have a free choice of good and evill for therefore he saith some to eternall life but some unto reproaches and eternall abomination untill at length they come into contempt and a continuall consummation that no part of good shall come to them but even as the Prophet saith at that time the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord Then the abundance of divine knowledge shal so much increase that the faith of God shall never be wanting neither shall man bee changed but to good and to perfection and many Iewes say these things shall be before the daies of the Messias at which time miracles without number shal come to passe Christian And here you likewise erre seeing all these miracles are fulfilled already some few excepted which shall come to passe in the second comming of the Messias namely in the end of the world when God and the Messias shall come to judge the quick and the dead for the Messias is come already and hath quickned the dead some from a corporall death some from a spirituall death At this day Idols have ceas'd in the world as it is written The earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord for all Nations professe at this day one God At this day much people walk to the house of the God of Iacob which is the congregation of the faithfull beleeving in Christ who also figuratively are called the spirituall Ierusalem At this day the wolfe remaines with the Lamb that is the wicked and devourer with the meeke and doth not hurt him Peace also was through the whole world in those daies when Christ was born for then one man namely Octavianus did reigne over the whole world in peace But in the world to come which is the kingdome of Christ there shall bee peace without end now the Ports of Ierusalem are open that every one that will may enter and the mountain of the Lord is established upon the top of the mountaines and is lifted above the hils To day in the heavenly Ierusalem which is the City of beleevers in Christ who is already come a voice of weeping and mourning shall no more bee heard there but beleevers in Christ shall remaine there not onely five hundred yeares but for ever But yee Iewes do not understand this word as Isaias hath prophecied the Ox knoweth his owner and the Asse his Masters crib but Israel doth not know my people doth not consider as if hee should say they would not understand and walke in a right way interpreting places of Scripture according to their owne fancies knowing that their words are defended by no truth as I will explaine below where they say Christ shal have sons and daughters And is it not written in the Thalmud in the Treatise Nisa that the Messias shall not come till the soules bee perfected from the body that is brought out of that closet from whence the soules shall come which are created for they so call the body Know therfore their words are empty and foolish when they frame expositiōs of things to come for they doe it to triumph and obstinately to remain in their errour lest if they repented and stood off from their purpose they should lie under shame and disgrace but they themselves confesse they dare not for the people sing a recantation for otherwise they should be killed because they have so blinded the eyes of the common people with their false consolations But I know you Iewes doe object to us Christians that this gave occasion to your so tedious banishment because Iesus being born of the seed of David of the Iewes made himselfe God and drew many of the people to him who beleeved in him which neverthelesse is a very bad errour with you and your ancestors Did they not kill him for it and hang him upon a tree if they had done well God ought rather to hasten their redemption for that fact even before the end of their banishment were come especially seeing they had fulfilled that command Thou shalt root out evill from the midst of thee and did hee not promise this very thing to them by Moses Moreover if the words of Christ were lies why did not God send some Prophet or vision as he did in the daies of the Kings when they worshipped Baal and other Idols admonishing them to abstaine from that vanity and did reprove them But forasmuch as this hath not been done we may conclude that his words and deeds were true and just Blessed therefore is the man who puts his trust in the Lord and in his Christ and whose confidence the Lord is for the time wherein he hopes in him and in the Messias sent in the second house I have other Arguments which I could bring proving the Messias to be already come but I think it needlesse to alledge more here seeing I have cited those
thy place from the north parts thou and many people with thee and thou shalt come up against my people Israel as a cloud to cover the land ver. 19,20 And in that day there shall be a great shaking in the Land of Israel so that the fishes of the sea and the fowls of the heaven and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep upon the earth and all the men that are upon the face of the earth shall shake at my presence and the mountains shall be throwne downe and the steep places shall fall and every wall shall fall to the ground and I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains saith the Lord God every mans sword shall be against his brother Christian These words of the Prophet are wonderful but pursue your discourse and declare what you know Iew It follows And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood and I will rain upon him and his bands and upon the many people that are with him an overflowing raine and great hailstones fire and brimstone Thus wil I magnifie my selfe and sanctifie my selfe and I will bee knowne in the eyes of many Nations and they shall know that I am the Lord Againe saith the Lord behold I am against thee Gog and I will smite thee and punish thee with six plagues and will cause thee to come up from the north parts and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand Thou shalt fall upon the mountaines of Israel thou and all thy bands and the people that is with thee I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured Behold he saith in that great war shall be a great tumult to which Zachary alludeth who in his prophecy speaketh thus The mountaine of Olives shall be rent also every mans sword shall bee against his brother in that tumult of the Lord neither shall be left of them but the sixt part of the multitude and they shall goe to all Nations to declare the glory of the Lord amongst the Nations that they come not against Ierusalem or hee shall judge them with six judgments namely plague blood overflowing raine hail-stones fire and brimstone But what he saith fishes of the sea and foules of heaven know that is spoken hyperbolically to shew the greatnesse of the tumult which shall be Christian Why understand you that which is spoken of the fishes of the sea c. hyperbolically but expoundest the other part of the prophecy according to the letter and where I pray you is it written that Alexander King of the Greeks shut up the sons of Magog within the mountaines but continue that prophecie as you have begun Iew Againe Ezechiel saith And they that dwell in the Cities of Israel shall goe forth and shall set on fire and burne the weapons both the shield and the bucklers the bows and the arrowes and the hand-staves and the speares and they shal burne them with fire seven yeares they shall take no wood out of the field neither cut downe any out of the Forrests for they shall burne the weapons with fire that is they shall not need to cut downe trees out of the woods but the weapons of warre shall suffice Moreover he saith ver. 11. And it shall come to passe at that day that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel the vally of the passengers on the East of the Sea and it shall stop the noses of the passengers there shall the house of Israel bury them to the end that they may cleanse the land seven moneths the stinke of the dead shall cause those that passe by that way to stop and shut their noses from that very evill stink and the people of the land shall be emploied in the burying of them seven moneths also the Nations who came to worship shall goe forth out of Ierusalem into the vally of Iehosaphat to see the carcasses of the army of Gog and Magog who dealt wickedly against the Lord And though the house of Israel doe bury them that they may cleanse the earth seven months 't is possible that they may see in those seven months the judgement of those wicked men for they shall see their carcasses full of wormes gnawing them and fire burning in them as it is written They shall go forth and see the carcasses of those men who have done perversely against me for their worme shall not dye neither their fire be extinguisht Christian You have hitherto multiplied words of divers things I would have you repeat to me those things in a compend which you have alledged here and above Iew I will doe it and give you 15 answers 5 out of scripture and 5 out of the Caball and 5 by clear demonstration Of the 5 which are brought out of Scripture this is the first It is written that all shall bee gathered together from the foure parts of the world to come to Ierusalem and not a remnant or one of them shall remaine in a strange land and I will gather them to their own land and will leave none of them there any more c. but in the daies of the second Temple they of Israel were not gathered together but as it is written the whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore and for our comfort it is written that the Israelites shall be gathered together in the day of salvation from these Isles from Elam from Sinear and Homath But in the time of the first house we do not find that one of them was transported to the Isles of the sea and by consequent none was to be brought back from hence Christian There is no truth in your mouth who at your own pleasure doe pervert the Scriptures for the mentioned places of Scripture are to be understood of the gathering together of the Babylonish dispersion concerning which we find it thus written Remember I beseech thee the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses saying if ye transgresse I will scatter you abroad among the Nations but if ye turn unto me and keep my commandements and do them though there were of you cast out to the utmost parts of the heaven yet will I gather them from thence and will bring them to the place that I have chosen to set my name there But if you object that the Lord said in Ezekiel I will gather them together to their own land and will not leave any of them but in the time of Ezra all the Israelites did not returne to their owne land I answer that is not true for Ezra saith and all the Israelites dwelt in their Cities Moreover that is to be noted which is written in Deuteronomie concerning
years under the Law and 2000 yeares under the Messias then it should returne to its owne rudenesse But now the 2000 yeares of the Law and besides many above a thousand are past and your Messias is not yet come as ye Iewes say There is also another sign that the Law of Moses was given for a time because the Prophet saith remember the law of Moses my servant hee doth not say doe the law of Moses as if hee should say In the time of the Messias remember the law of Moses because then all things which are written in the law of Moses concerning the Messias shall be fulfilled for the offerings and sacrifices of oxen and sheep did foreshew the sacrifice of the Messias when he was led forth for a sacrifice and as a sheep which before the shearers is dumb so opened he not his mouth but with his blood hee hath washt us from our sins and hath cleansed away our iniquities Now therefore O Iewes I turne my selfe to you Behold yee pray morning and evening in all your prayers that the Messias and the Redeemer may bee sent to you and ye stand in the feast of propitiation from the evening to the morning crying and praying with your whole heart and your whole strength to the Lord that hee would heare you and send you the Messias but there is no change of your state there is none who understands your prayers or who opens the gates of heaven and takes you out of this life and much lesse who sends your Messias yea to speake somewhat more nothing is seen nothing is heard there is no voice or vision which may tell you the comming of the Messias And behold the property of the blessed God is to heare the prayers of the just and it is impossible according to your assertion who say your faith is true that there hath not been some just in all these generations which have been from the daies of the desolation of the Temple to this present that the blessed God hath not heard their praier and hath sent them the Messias for their merits or that some signe hath not been revealed to them or vision shewed or voice heard whence they might have a sign of his comming Furthermore for what cause doe you thinke the Messias doth so long defer his comming that he doth not redeem you How can hee in this so long time see your tribulations which yee suffer in this banishment and doth not deliver you out of your tribulations neither executes judgement against your enemies why doth hee suffer you so to wander through the deserts as sheep without a pastour and have not any certain dwelling why hath he cast you from him now so many yeares and doth not remember you with God Truly when formerly hee chastised your fathers for their sin presently after they confest and praied and humbled themselves before him in their captivity presently I say hee delivered them although they had even committed Idolatry and offended against the law of Moses had polluted the sabbath and solemnities had broke the covenant of Abraham yet I say notwithstanding these when they repented and did confess their sins forthwith he heard their prayers he repented of the evil inflicted upon them he delivered them and every day sent them the Prophets to comfort them in their banishment yea when before they were certified of the end of their captivity to wit that they should bee in captivity but seventy yeares but the present captivity is now prolonged beyond a thousand and five hundred yeares and it is certaine that in the second house they did not worship Idols neither committed they so much as one of those transgressions which they committed in the first house but neither in this captivity is any man found who worships Idols as they did in former daies and neverthelesse not any consolation or the voice of any oracle doth appeare or is made known What therefore is that your sin for which this captivity after the second house continues so long beyond the captivity of the first house except that ye would not receive and heare the Messias the Saviour when hee came to your land but did persecute him even to death yea when your fathers saw his miracles and terrible works such as no man ever did yet they would not beleeve on him and therefore neither for them neither for you shall ever any propitiation ever be made but being cast forth ye shal lie in the dark and shadow of death ye shall perish for ever unlesse yee bee converted and confesse him Measure for Measure Iew This captivity shall endure to the end of redemption to purge away the sin of our fathers as it is declared in the end of Daniel blessed is he that waites and shall come to one hundred thirty five daies By daies understand yeares as if he should say for the sins which they committed in the first house before the captivity of Babel the mentioned time must be expected c. Christian I have said even now that it is a great error among you to think the Sonne doth beare the iniquity of his father although he hath not committed his Sin seeing the Scripture saith plainly the sons shall not dye for the fathers c. And againe it is written Visiting the iniquity of the fathers unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate mee Where hee meanes that God doth not visit iniquity but unto the fourth generation and how many thousand generations doe you thinke are past to this present time Behold now from the time of the destruction of the Temple and City not only a thousand three hundred and thirty five yeares but many more are past and your fathers expected the Messias about the end of those yeares for so they interpreted the mentioned place of Daniel and neverthelesse your Messias is not yet come neither hath removed from you the punishments of this very long captivity Iew This captivity is prolonged for the transgression which the Israelites did in the second house making themselves gods as Jesus the Apostles and other Saints did who all were Jewes and did perversely interpret the sayings of the Prophets concerning Jesus and made him as it were a perpetual Idol for this the Israelites are almost perpetuated in this so long captivity Christian Doubtlesse no man is ignorant how very grievously the Kings of Judea and Israel sinned in the first house who ordained Priests for the worship of Idols and cleane destroyed the true worship of God and nevertheless they were in captivity but seventy yeares But in the modern captivity they who have acknowledged Christ and have called him the son of God have not denied God but they saw the workes of God in Christ and said this is the son of God But if they had erred in this yet for this they had not denyed God which seeing it is thus why is this your captivity so wonderderfully prolonged