other men I briefly suggest these following things to you and the Reader 1. That by your owne concession set formes of prayer are not unlawfull because they be set and framed before hand and not conceived suddenly wherein you grant that the publicke prayers in the Assemblies may be premeditated framed and studied before hand as well as Sermons which concession takes off one of the strongest Arguments used against set-formes of prayer 2. I answer it is not against the fruites of Christs ascension into Heaven and of giving gifts unto men for the Ministery that they doe not alwayes in all their prayers exercise their own gifts of invention and composall of prayer for so the using of the Lords prayer should be unlawfull at any time for the Ministers which is no prayer framed out of their owne meditations and studie and their owne gifts 3. I answer there is a great dissimilitude in many respects betweene Sermons and prayers so that it will not hold though Sermons ought to be framed alwaies out of our owne gifts that therefore prayers alwayes should be And this I will demonstrate in a Discourse of the lawfulnesse of using set-formes of prayer composed by others 4. It is not against the fruit of Christs ascension nor the gifts given then for Ministers in some instructions and teachings of the people to make use of some thing sometimes in publike either doctrinall or practicall not framed out of their owne gifts but by others As suppose the reading in the Congregation to the people often some confession of faith or some exhortation about maine things of use to them having still the free use of their giftsto preach besides 5. Suppose you five should joyne together out of your owne meditations and studies exercising your owne gifts to frame publicke prayers of maine petitions needfull for the state of all your Churches whether might they be used by you in your publick Assemblies 6. Whether each of you by your selves framing upon meditation and studie a set-forme of prayer may not use that often in your Assemblies without sinne having also your liberty to adde conceived prayers at the same time But to put all out of question about the second instance I judge that set formes of prayer prescribed taken in both senses that is neither made nor framed out of the gifts of the persons who use them nor left at liberty but by publike consent agreed upon to be used are not unlawfull to be practised but the Scriptures give us examples for such prayers as in 2 Chron. 29. 30. Moreover Hezekiah the King and the Princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord with the words of David and of Asaph the Seer and they sang praises with gladnesse and they bowed their heads and worshipped And therefore the use of set formes of prayer framed and composed by others and prescribed having example in Scripture as well as conceived are no additament nor superaddition but the reformed Churches in practising both practise most safely according to Scripture patternes and your Churches using only one sort and not the other leave to follow examples recorded in Scripture and we may more justly cast upon you the taking away from Scripture taking away being a like branded by Scripture as adding But you doe unjustly cast upon the reformed Churches adding to the word the Scriptures holding out examples for both And for the further clearing your mistakes in this great ordinance of publike prayer I shall only adde this all that God hath commanded either in the old Testament or new about publike prayer is that prayers be made in the publike Assemblies and that those prayers be of petitions for their matter and kind lawfull according unto the will of God directed unto God alone in the Name of Christ with humility fervency faith and such like but that God hath required that as oft as Ministers pray they must put up prayers framed by their own meditations and studies out of their own gifts and that the words and phrases must be various and diversified or else their prayers are not lawfull there is never such a sillable to proove it in the Scripture But we have examples of both namely set and conceived and Gods servants used both indifferently and we may use both according as we see occasion and as we find may make most for edification and Gods glory And I desire you in your Reply to this Answer to give any instance to the contrary and I shall thanke you for I seek truth and peace and not victory nor contention And let me mind you whilst you goe about in this instance to cleare your selves of additaments you are in this and other instances guilty of taking away from the Word falling short as in other things practising above what is written besides your different way of practising in some things So likewise for the government and discipline in the Churches however the practise of the reformed Churches is in greater matters to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbytery of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government yet so as in their judgments they allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction to be exercised by the Elders thereof within it selfe Yea and our owne Mr Cartwright holy Baynes and other old Non-conformists place the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church with the consent of the Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed they doe subject them to such Presbyteriall and Provinciall Assemblies as the proper refuge for appeales and for compounding of differences amongst Churches which combination of Churches others of them therefore call Ecclesiae ortae but particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae as wherein firstly the power and priviledge of a Church is to be exercised And withall we could not but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one City at first then might make up one entire Congregation ruled by their own Elders that also preached to them for that in every City where they came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations or that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination we did not imagine We found also those non-conformists that wrote against the Episcopall government in their answer to the arguments used for Episcopall government over many Churches brought from the instances of the multitude of believers at Ierusalem and other places and Cities mentioned in the new Testament to assert that it would not be infallibly proved that any of those we read of in the Acts and elsewhere were yet so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first times We found it also granted by them all
infallibly and necessarily a particular Church to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation yet they never intended it as against the reformed Churches Now you know the saying Authoris aliud agentis parva est authâ—…ritas But shew us where ever the old non-conformists as against the reformed Churches held so It will appeare by Gerson Bucerus and by the practise of the reformed Churches in Geneva and Holland for which Mr Robinson so objects against them in his Apologie that though they were against the government of Bishops and Diocesan Churches that is of a head Church over many Congregations united to it yet not of a particular Church of such a City consisting of many particular Congregations And as for that you take for granted by all that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation it is denied you For some Divines as Danaeus and Cartwright as I remember hold it not necessary for every small Congregation in villages but for Cities and more populous places to which the lesser villages being conjoyned have the benefit and support of all the Elders and Ministers in the exercising of government As for that you say Others of them calling the combination of Churches Ecclesiae ortae but particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae as wherein firstly the power and priviledge of a Church is to be exercised that others was Mr Parker who in his Politia Ecclesiastica gives us this distinction and was the first who brought it up as ever I read of who differing from Mr Baynes and other non-conformists and most Divines of the reformed Churches in the subject of the power of the keyes giving it to the body of the Church agreeing therein too much with you no wonder he called particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae But as he was mistaken in the first receptacle and subject of the power of the keyes so he might be in his distinction of Ecclesiae primae and ortae For the first Churches namely that of Ierusalem Rome Ephesus with others were not particular Congregations but Churches consisting of many Congregations severall meeting places some preaching in one place and others in other places but governed by the Elders in common which City Churches were the first Churches still first planted by the Apostles and particular Congregations in villages were Ecclesiae ortae the City Churches in this sence being the mothers and the particular Congregations rather the daughters the full proofe and demonstration whereof I referre to a tractate I intend about the nature of the visible Church But by what I have answered upon this head the Reader may observe there is not all granted which you tooke for granted from the Reformed Churches and the Non-conformists and what is yeelded slowes from another spring and is upon another ground writing against Diocesan Bishops quite another controversie but otherwise even when Non-conformists have come to write against the separation and upon the nature of a visible Church as Mr Ball a they hold the contrary And for learned men of other Churches even when they writ against Episcopacie yet they were farre from holding that a particular visible Church was only a particular Congregation as Gersom Bucerus in his answer to D â— Downham A particular Church is any companie of beleevers conjoyned in the observation of holy ordinances and united to one Presbyterie keeping their meetings in one or more places For the number of Parishes in which they meet is a thing accidentall being nothing at all to the essence of a particular Church And even the Non-conformists you speake of as it appeares by the wary expressions your selves use of them namely infallibly and necessarily doe even give the cause For that is as you imply the Non-conformists in their answers could not denie but probably the number of beleevers were so numerous as to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first timâ—…s though not infallibly and rationally though not necessarily Now in points of externall order and government which depend upon the story and circumstances of time and place how many things are there practised but of presumption though not of certainty and though they cannot be infallibly and necessarily proved so as to stop all mouthes and all that the wit of man can possibly finde out yet if the things asserted can be but probably proved upon better reasons then the contrary we may encline to that as to the safer part How many practises and tenents have you in your Church-way that cannot be infallibly and necessarily proved but stronger answers may be and are given to the reasons you bring for them then any the Non-conformists could give to that instance of the Church of Ierusalem and yet you hold to your principles for all that and it is a rule hath been pleaded by some of you that in things of that nature where the Scripture is not expresse but holds them out most probably though not infallibly and necessarily yet we ought to encline to that As for Mr Baynes answer though directed against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to that instance of the Church of Ierusalem it is no whit satisfactorie nor concluding to any man who is of another judgement as the Reader may reade in the 15. and 16. page of the Dioces Tryall To the 3d particular under the first head namely what you allow and grant about a Church and the Government that you could not but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one Citie at the first then might make up one entire Congregation ruled by their owne Elders that also preached to them and that you could not but judge it a safe and an allowed way to retaine the government of your severall Congregations for matter of discipline within themselves to be exercised by their owne Elders c. In way of answer I must first complaine of your old fault the slippery and uncertaine expressions used in the relation of what you owne and allow about a Church in those phrases the first Churches ordinarily and at first I demand the reason of you why you put in ordinarily and at first was it not because you fore-saw the Church of Ierusalem and some few others recorded in the New Testament though not in the first Chapter of the Acts and at the beginning yet would at last by the 8. of the Acts and Acts 21. amount to more then could meet in one Congregation and therefore you exprest it so Is this faire dealing or what other reason can you give for using such doubtfull expressions the question is not betweene you and us whether all the Churches and most of the Churches or whether at first and in the beginning of them they consisted of no more in one City then to make up one Congregation but whether the Scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles be it first or last sooner or later gives any patterne or example of
put it in every Citie which we affirme not nor need not to carry the cause against you for if we can prove it in some Cities or in any Cities that the number of Converts did arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations then we prove the Scripture holds out a Presbyteriall Classicall Church and overthrow your grand principle about a particular Church And Reader observe the fallacie of these Apologists how in the manner of their expression and as they propound it though the thing may be true yet they alter quite the state of the Question For though in every Citie where the Apostles came you could not imagine the number of Converts should be so great nor we neither yet in some Cities you might have well imagined it as in Ierusalem and Rome But Brethren why will you who are Schollers and without question weighed well all your words and manner of expressions having so many heads in the framing this Apologie deale thus with the Reader in a Narration speake truly though you did not imagine the number of Converts were so many in every City yet did not you imagine the number might be so great in some Cities as in Ierusalem and if still you will not imagine it for the helping of your imagination consider whether you have not more reason if not infallible and necessary yet probable and rationall to imagine the Church of Hiâ—…rusalem consisting of so many thousands of people and having so many Ministers to preach unto them as 12. Apostles besides the seventy Disciples and they meeting in so many distinct houses and not having the power and command of any publicke large place or liberty through those times to fit it for such multitudes to heare the word joyne in prayer and Sacraments should have severall and sundry Congregations rather then to imagine all those should make but one standing Congregation to meet in one place and roome 2. It is stated otherwise carried higher then need be granted and that in all your expressions of it for the Scriptures may hold forth a combination of the Elders of many Churches for government and yet not be the Institution of Christ or his Apostles It may be allowed and agreeable to the word have a jus divinum permissivum upon generall rules of the word and according to the rules of the law of nature and of Prudence yea and may have some examples of it and yet not amount to a divine Institution many who hold the thing will not in those phrases owne it 2. These Elders of many Congregations may have a power of Government in common over all and yet not be the first seat of Church-power for it is not denied but some particular Congregations having a competent number of Presbyters both have and may exercise Church-power before any such combination is or can be 3. These Elders combined may have Church-power to rule these Congregations so combined and yet not have a compleate and entire seat of Church-power but a power liable to appeales unto Synods and generall Assemblies The question betweene you and us is whether Classes or Presbyteries have power in Ecclesiasticall matters as Ordination Excommunication c. within the number of Congregations so combined or may by warrant from the word exercise any power in Church matters but in their owne particular Congregations the question is not whether it be the Institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power As you state it you strangely mistate the question to lay it downe in these words That the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first seat of Church-power over each Congregation so combined whereas the opinion of the Reformed Churches is quite contrary not holding Classes and Synods to be the first subject of Church-power from whence it is consequently derived and conferred upon particular Churches but that particular congregations having power in themselves and amongst themselves equall power doe in Classes and Synods conferre and execute in common their owne power even as those who are colleagues and equall members of some politicall societie 4. The power which particular officers and Presbyters of combined congregations may have over particular members of those Churches they teach not ordinarily doth not amount to the challenging and assuming an authority over those Churches they feed and teach not your expression is a mistake it is not an assuming a power and authority by some over other Churches but it is a power of the whole and of themselvs too even those particular Churches in their officers over particular members as in the Parliament no member hath power over another more then another over him but the whol hath power over all the particulars for the clearing of which the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland speake fully in their Reformation of Church government in Scotland cleared page 24 25. And for the close of this second head wherein you stand upon what you are not satisfied in but disallow if you would impartially consider that the Scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles doe as well hold out grounds yea and more indubitable as I shall make evident in a particular Tractate of the visible Church that the first particular Churches planted by the Apostles consisted of more Congregations and distinct meeting places then of one only Congregation you will acknowledge that where there are many Presbyters to feed and rule and many more Christians living in a vicinity then can meet in one place it is not the most safe and allowed way to retaine the government of each Congregation thus within themselves neither that it is an additament in the reformed Churches to practise so but rather an additament on their part who living in a City where the number of beleevers are so numerous as to make many meeting places there to make these places and persons such distinct Churches as to manage all things each one within themselves and not to grow into one for government And I am so farre versed in these controversies that I challenge you five to give me an example of any City where it is probable the multitude of beleevers were so numerous as to make many meeting places that ever they were governed and ruled but in common or ever called Churches but Church still called the Church of Corinth and the Church of Ierusalem I foresee only one instance that can be probably alledged that in Rom. 16. 1. of the Church which is at Cenchrea which Cenchrea was a part of Corinth and neare to Corinth yet named a Church as well as the Church of Corinth but the insufficiencie of that ground I shall at large shew in that Tractate of the visible Church which Primitive practise hath so farre wrought with some of the reformed Churches as those of Holland that in great Cities where the number of their people
are so many as they cannot meet in one place but have more meeting places yet in imitation of the Scriptures giving that ground to some who have askt them a reason they make City Churches but one and the Ministers are Ministers in common of them all preaching in their courses in the severall meeting places and governed in common and this they doe to keep nearest to Apostolicall practise whereas now in the Countrey where villages are and the meetings are scattered they doe not all preach to all And to adde this further to shew your unsafe way of practising in the way of your particular Congregations over the reformed Churches and our Churches in England your Congregations as in London where the meeting place is and the Ministers reside is made up of members as of some living in London so of some in Surrey Middlesex Hartfordsheire Essex where they have fixum domicilium being twenty miles asunder and many members meeting but sometimes in a Moneth where neither Ministers can oversee them nor members watch over one another not knowing what the conversation of each other is which yet are brought as the maine grounds for your Church-fellowship which non-residencie of the members from one another and of the officers from so many of the members whether it overthrow not and be not point blank against many of your principles of the Church-way I leave to your selves to judge besides that it is without any Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles the Churches being still stiled according to the places where they lived and met as in Rom. 1. 7. To all that be in Rome beloved of God called to be Saints And so in the Epistles to the Corinthians To the Church of God which is at Corinth And I desire you to give me any Primitive patterne of any who belonged to the Church of Rome Corinth Ierusalem that is were standing members of those Churches who lived and inhabited ten miles twenty five miles c. round about those Cities so that we find here in this third instance namely in the government and discipline of the Churches as well as in the first instance in the qualification of your members that the additament is on your sides and not on the reformed Churches To the third head namely the reasons couched and hinted for your own practise and against the practise and way of the reformed Churches to the first reason I answer as the relating of the state of the questions was not proper so this argument hinted here is not properly expressed for their might be such a Presbyteriall Church and government as is maintained against you namely but two or three distinct meeting places and yet not Churches rising to such a numerous multiplication nor Apostles staying to the setting up of Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication But pray what doe you meane by those expressions We did not imagine but might you not or could you not have imagined it though you did not nor would not and what by this that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to make such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination Doe you carry the words in reference only to that numerous multiplication or simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay so long in any City as to set up any Churches at all Now if you will have your words interpreted in the first sense then judge how improper the speech and narration of your mind is for then it should have gone thus that the Apostles should stay the setting up of so many Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication for the denying the setting up of any Churches and at all agree not with the following words untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication the former being a diminitive nay a negative and cannot agree to such an augmentative as the latter besides your first words carried in reference to the following have no strength to proove what you bring them for namely what you allowed and practised or what you disallowed for though the Apostles should not stay so long as the setting up so many Churches as might arise to such a numerous multiplication of severall and sundry Congregations yet there might be such a Presbyteriall classicall Church a Church consisting of more then could meet in one place which is the controversie between us But if you understand your words simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay the setting up of any Churches at all I desire you to remember your own principles and expressions in many books and discourses of your way that the Apostles were the founders of the first Churches as at Corinth Rome and for Ierusalem especially which is the particular Church we most stand upon the Apostles staid long enough there to set up not onely any Churches at all but many to make such a Presbyteriall combination as is stood for as will appeare both by Acts 8. Acts 15. Acts 21. and it is the judgement of Mr Robinson that Ierusalem was never without some of the Apostles there which the two first chapters of the Galathians give a strong ground for besides the many Presbyters that belonged thereunto And so for the Church of Ephesus Paul stayed at one time in those parts three yeares together long enough to make so many Churches as might make a Presbyteriall combination which that of the Acts chap. 20. vers 17 18 25 28 29 31. doe give hints enough for if the nature of an answer to a Narration would permit to draw them out at length To the second reason hinted that those precepts Obey your Elders and them that are over you were to be sure meant of the Pastours and teachers set over them in each particular Congregation respectively and to be as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in those commands Wives obey your own husbands c. I answer that in Scripture a particular Church consisting of more Congregations then one and the Ministers and Elders feeding them and governing them in common as at Ierusalem and as it is in the Low Countries in Cities there as at Amsterdam c. all the Ministers and Elders are their own Ministers and Elders as the husbands are the owne of their wives and those Scriptures are to be understood of all their Pastors and Ministers and not of some only or in respect of some and not of the rest and it is as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in that command Wives obey your owne husbands that obey your Elders c. be meant not of some but of them all 2. In Churches by their combination consisting of many Congregations where ordinarily some Pastors and teachers feed some Congregations and not the rest Ministers being fixed some to that Congregation and others to other Congregations yet there being a government in common by all the Presbyters of
in as much as lay in you did not you so act for your owne opinions and Church way that you would have hazarded the Kingdome Religion and all rather then the losse of your Independencie which you knew the Scots were so averse unto 7. Whether have not some of you in Conferences with many good people and by discourses in private acâ—…ed for your selves and way by stumbling them in the point of a particular Church and in the point of coming to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper and by pleading for a Toleration of all opinions that may stand with saving Grace and doth none of you remember what was answered you that Poligâ—…mie might stand with saving Grace and must that be tolerated 8. Whether have not some of you tampered with some Parliament men about delaying the meeting of the Assembly and suggesting to them doubts and feares about it and whether in the Assembly have you not by all possible wayes both in opposing some orders of speaking but so many times to one point the sooner to bring things to an end and by other wayes all that you could delaied the proceedings of the Assembly and all this out of acting for your selves and way that so your party might increase and your opinions spread before the Government might be setled 9. Have not some of you out of acting for your selves and way endeavoured the bringing into the Assembly since the sitting of it some Independents to be members of it and upon their being stopped have not some of you earnestly dealt with some members of the House of Commons that they might passe their House and what could this be but out of acting for your selves and way 10. Whether have not you out of acting for your selves and way had many meetings and consultations both of writing letters into New-England for their help and furtherance and about what you should doe and how to order matters since the Scots must be sent for and since the Assembly could not be hindred how things might be managed and carried for the best advantage of your cause and way and whether was not this Apologeticall Narration one of the Products of your consultations Now unto these ten I might adde other Quaeres but shall reserve them to my Rejoynder these being sufficient to satisfie you and the Reader So that laying all these things together what did you meane or thinke with your selves when you writâ—… these passages could you imagine you danced in a net all this time and that men tooke no notice of you or that all had been forgotten that you had done and preacht or did you imagine your power was so great with the people having such a name that all would be taken for truth you writ or that your greatnesse was such that no man durst question what you had done or appeare against your Apologie or if they did they should but blast themselves among the people and the people would believe nothing against you what strange spirit possessed you to write thus For my part I feare not my name I have learned to trust God with it and I dare by the Grace and helpe of Gods Spirit deale with you and all of you in these Controversies But supposing all you affirme of your selves had been true eujus contrarium verum est as is too evident by what I have proved that you had neither preached printed nor acted personally for your selves and way yet all this forbearance might have been not from the grounds and reasons brought by you in this Section but from other principles of wisdome and policie as the more to ingratiate your selves with the Houses of Parliament and to insinuate into their favour and that you might the better make such an Apologie as this and make use of it to your advantage at such a time as this and I judge such considerations have restrained some of you and prevailed with you not to act so much as your fellowes and not so openly as otherwise you would especially knowing whilest you were in the Tyring-house unseene the Scene was full and the Tragedie went on there being no want of Actors on the open Stage to carry on your Church way As for instance Mr W. Mr P. Mr K. Mr B. Dr H. Mr L. Mr G. Mr C. Mr B. Mr P. Mr G. Mr W. Mr W. S. Mr C. Mr E. Mr C. Mr A. Mr L. cum multis aliis of whose preachings and acting for themselves and way in gathering of Churches c. and of books made by some of them and printed by others of them it would fill a book to enumerate particulars and to declare what hath been done in Citie Countrey Armies and in all places to make and increase parties and to occasion so great disturbance amongst all sorts as that it will be found a hard worke to settle the Government of the Church and to reduce the people And I confesse you having such choice of Instruments and under-worâ—…men to work by and to build your Babel I marvell you contented not your selves with onely casting the Modell and giving the pattern and aime to others but that you should appeare upon the workes your selves as often-times you did To your second main part in this Section the Provocations you have had all sorts of wayes to have preached printed and acted for your selves both by the Common misunderstandings and misrepresentations of your opinions and practises c. I must tell you I judge and that upon good grounds never men laying all things together consideratis considerandis had fewer provocations for considering you were but a few in comparison and going in a new different way from all the Reformed Churches and the destructivenesse of your principles to Reformation with the danger of them in drawing away and stealing our sheep from us and the contempt of our Ministerie occasioned by your principles among all the people generally of your way as also your leaving the land in the greatest need notwithstanding all these and many more that all the godly Ministers of City and Countrey should carry themselves towards you with that love respect fairnesse brotherly kindnesse as they did might have provoked you indeed but in another way then you expresse it And for the truth of this I appeale to your owne breasts and to the knowledge of my brethren and to these following demonstrations 1. There was a great deale of loving respects and faire carriage towards you both in admitting you into their Pulpits and in forbearing all things offensive to you and your party before the Sermons to gratifie you 2. There was a great deale of faire respects to you in admitting you into their Societie and publique meetings about the matters of Reformation 3. There was a generall silence by the Godly Ministers I feare unto sinfull in forbearing preaching against your points and that when some of you preached for your way and many Pamphlets were printed for it 4. The Ministers suffered some of you and no
books of others or in counselling and consenting to the printing of them especially some books from out of New-England and particularly of Mr Cottons 3. Neither I nor many other Ministers are not satisfied of the truth of those words That you have not acted for your selves and way which words as here brought in by you must be understood of acting as distinct from preaching and printing that is as you have not published your opinions by preaching so you have not by other wayes and meanes acted for your selves or way as in making friends or in mooving any Parliament men or in consulting together what to doe about your way no alas good men you have kept your houses close and followed your studies hard and seldome gone to Westminster but have left the businesse of Independencie and the Church-way to God wholly leaving him to take care of his own way and cause Brethren how dare you write thus if you have not acted for your selves and way since your returnes into England and improoved your time well too most who know you are much deceived in you and strangely mistaken And suffer me to deale plainely with you I am perswaded that setting aside the Jesuites acting for themselves and way you Five have acted for your selves and way both by your selves and by your instruments both upon the stage and behind the curtaine considering circumstances and laying all things together more then any five men have done in so short a time this 60 yeares and if it be not so whence have come all the swarmes and troopes of Independents in Ministery Armies City Countrey Gentry and amongst the common people of all sorts men women servants children have not you five had the greatest influence to cause this who have wrought so many Ministers Gentlemen and people to your way can it be in Reason thought all this is come about without your acting for your selves and way is the peoples golden Calfe of Independencie and Democracie come out of it selfe without Aarons making it And whether you five have not acted for your selves way since this Parliament I desire you to answer these questions and then according to the truth of those questions let your consciences judge of the truth of these words 1. Whether came not you over into England and left your Churches in Holland with their leave or rather being sent as Messengers to negotiate for your way and for a Toleration of some Churches to enjoy Independent government that is a full entire compleate power within your selves 2. When you were come over did you not in the first yeare of the Parliaments sitting consult together and debate about a Petition and was there not one drawne to be presented to the House of Commons for a Toleration of some Congregations to enjoy a Congregationall government 3. Have you not beene all along from your first comming over into England to the writing of this present Apologie intent and watchfull upon every thing in agitation or about to passe in matters of Religion that might make though but remotely for Presbyteriall government and might though but by a remote consequence and at a distance touch upon or prejudice your Church way As for instance about the time of passing a Bill in the House of Commons against Episcopacy and of consultation and debate what should be in the interim till another Government could be setled were not you zealous and active against that advice and counsell of a certaine number of grave Ministers in each County to be substituted for the time out of your feare of having but a shadow of Presbyterian governement though but pro tempore and how much you worked in that with some of place and what the issue of that was you may remember So upon thoughts and consultations since this warre of entring into a Covenant and some Ministers being advised with whether did not some of you stand for a clause to be inserted in the Covenant for liberty to tender consciences and for want of such a clause that being opposed by some how long it was layed aside c. I desire you to remember Againe about the beginning of the Assembly in the review and examination of of some of the Articles of Religion and in the propounding but some orders to have been agreed on about the way of managing the Disputes and Debates in the Assembly how tender have you been of any thing tending but to Presbytery and that might though but indirectly reflect upon any of your Principles 4. Have not some of you though may be not all acted for your selves and way by constant Church meetings on the Lords day in private houses preaching the word and administring the Sacraments even in the times of the publike Assemblies where besides your own Church members have resorted to your meetings many other persons some members of Churches in New-England and others belonging to the Church of England and whereas Mr Simpson was a Minister of a Church at Rotterdam which Church is still there hath not Mr Simpson since his returne well acted for himselfe and his way in getting such a rich and numerous Church consisting of so many Gentlemen and Gentlewomen rich Citizens rich Virgins c. and hath not Mr Goodwin acted for himself and way and at least in the least attempted to encrease a party when besides those of his Church at Arnheim that came over from thence there are others here in London have gone to his Church meetings and there are some if not actually members the ceremony may be being forborne that it may be said he hath added none to his Church yet are Competentes Candidati Probationers members in fieri with their faces to Zion and reputed members actually by them of nearest Relations and Co-habitations as I am credibly enformed but must name none to prevent differences in neere Relations 5. Have not some of you if not all of you acted for your selves and way in actually speaking and moving some Parliament men to stand for you and for a Toleration of your Church way and have you not been answered shew us your grounds let us know what you hold and what you would have and then you shall see that shall be done which is sitting and out of zeale of acting for your selves and way have not some of you suggested in private to Parliament men the prejudice of their Parliamentary power if they should admit of the Government of the Church of Scotland pleading also for a necessity of a Toleration and in particular I aske Mr Nye if he remember no such discourses and that at Hull too 6. Whether have not some of you if not all out of acting for your selves and way hindred all that â—…lay in you the sending for our brethren of Scotland to come to our help and whether have not some of you much pleaded against sending for them in and objected as the Malignants doe of the danger of their comming in c and whether
in one or two Sermons against some who say we have had no Churches no Ministers c. with which the eyes of many men who have not studied the controversies neither understand them have been blinded and by which you have the more readily drawn some either to your Church-way by your pretended moderation or to plead for you against the aspersion of Brownisme But what have you either done really or forborne for the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State have not all the notorious and visible disorders in our Churches since this Parliament both in Citie and Countrey which have wrought such great disgusts in many though unjustly against the Reformation and the Parliament that as old Iacobâ—…aid â—…aid to Simeon and Lâ—…vi Ye have troubled me to make me to stincke amongst the inhabitants of the land and I being few in number they shall gather themselves together against me and â—…ay me c. so might Reformation and Parliament speake been committed by your followers and men of your way and â—…ommunion yea many of them in your presence when some of you have been to preach for as for the rigid Brownists and Aâ—…baptists they come not to our Assemblies at all O the great advantage and gaine the common enemie hath made amongst many of these things and the great losse and hinderance the Reformation and Parliament hath sustained by them What that happy latitude and agreement is with which you have â—…een so hopâ—…fully entertained by some you should have done well to have spoken out and have told us whether any men in place have given you promises of a Toleration for your way for I suppose by your phrase that is the happy latitude and agreement you meane Bâ—… if any have I hope it is more then they can performe and makâ—… good besides those persons are free from their promise you havâ—… justly forfeited that hopefull expectation for whereas they entertained you with it as your selves say that you might keepe silence and forbeare all acting for your selves or way you have practised quite contrary as is evident by the many instances giveâ—… in my Answer to this Section Now as this deepe silence and forbearance of yours is sufficiently disprooved for what heare I words when I see deeds so contrary so neither the conscience non coÌ„sideration of all these nor the weight of each have had any great power with you hitherto but your own interests For your private particular Church way hath prevailed with you above all the publike to occasion great disturbance amongst the people and so great disturbance hath been and is occasioned by your meanes that the swarme is up and settles in so many places as without Gods great mercy they will never be got into one hive againe The Lord only knowes when these disturbances will be setled and quiâ—…ted it were easie to fill up such a booke as your Apologeticall Narration with the particulars of the disturbances occasioned amongst the people by meanes of you and other Ministers of your communion In a word at that time when some of you whose names are here subscribed did keepe any silence I think it was not so much these Reasons pretended by you as the advantage of our silence in forbearing preaching and printing some bookes being then even ready to have come out that was aymed at and was a greater wâ—…ght then the Reasons here mentioned by you and besides you in your wisedomes knew well enough there weâ—… many of your way though you were silent would be doing and driving on the trade there would be preaching and printing that would serve to take with the people and in the interim you should gaine time to ripen shapen and bring forth your opinions the better with their grounds As to those words in the close of this Section wâ—… have and 〈◊〉 yet resolved to â—…re all this with a quiet and strong 〈◊〉 in thâ—… strength of which we now speake or rather sigh forth this little c So it seemes witnesse this Apologeticall Narration that you have and are resolved to beare all this with a quiet and strong patience It is a wonder if your patience was so quiet and so strong in the strength of which you now speake or rather sigh forth this little booke you could not forbeare a little longer from putting forth this Popular and Rhetoricall Discourse to take the people with and to vindicate your selves and way especially having so many advantages 1. That many of the mists gathered about you were in a great measure scattered without speaking a word 2. The good opinion both Houses had of you to make you members of the Assembly with other favours conferred upon you 3. Your swimming with the streame of popular applause cried up and followed so by the people with your great interest and familiaritie in many men of place and power 4. Eminent Lectures and the most publique places to preach in 5. Above all your being members of the Assembly as also the Assembly being upon the very borders of the points in difference In consideration of all which I judge a very little patience might have served the turne to have left the vindiâ—…ation of your persons to God and to a further 〈◊〉 of you by â—…en so that it seemes not true to me that in the strength of a quiet and strong patience you now speake or sigh forth this Apologie but rather this Apologie was made for want of patience to wait and out of that common designe of acting for your selves and way and to lay in something before hand with the Parliament and the people what ever the Assembly might chance to conclude in a word to prejudge the Assembly to play the fore-game and to prepossesse the mindes of men with a further high opinion of you and your way but I beleeve God hath turned all to the contrary taking the wise in their owne craftinesse and this Apologie hath and will make more against you then any one thing you ever did I have beene told by an intimate familiar friend of yours that one of you five told him it proved quite contrary to your expectation and you admired at it it should be so ill taken by the Assembly c. It is the worst evill that ever befell you since your returne from your exile worse then all the misunderstandings and misrepresentations of your opinions and the incitements to the Sâ—…te edged with calumnies and reproaches against Toleration of your Churches and the suddaine and unexpected noyse of confusâ—…d exclamations So soone as ever I read it over with deliberation I presently apprehended it the beginning of your fall in regard of your Church-way and could not but wonder at the Providence of God in leaving you to pen such a strange piece both for matter and manner so justly liable to exceptions and offence which would loose you among your friends and draw pens of all sorts and from all parts against you and give
are sufficiently knowne And however all these things of no other interest but a subsistance in our own land and of enjoying the ordinances of Christ and not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to set our feet on earth be held forth as specious pretences to the Parliament and Reader to perswade and to allure them yet the bottome of all this desire of a toleration in England though concealed is that there is no other place on earth where you are like to propagate your way to gaine so great a party to enjoy such full and rich Congregations and to have that respect and applause in your way as in England and in England as London and the adjacent parts or where you can have those faire hopes and probabilities of drawing so great a part of a Kingdome to your Church-way as here and where if you goe on to act as diligently and politickly as you have done in these three yeares last past and the Ministers be as generally silent and the common people of the Kingdome come a little more to understand your principles and have time to digest and consider of the great liberty and power they have thereby the rest of the Kingdome may in time come to be beholding to you for a toleration of Presbyterie if it be established which you will as soone grant if you come to have power in your hands as you will Episcopacy and Popery many of your Church-way ordinarily affirming they had rather have Episcopacie then Presbyterie and it hath been affirmed to me by a Minister of note that a Minister of the Church-way preferred Popery in this Kingdome before Presbyterie for if Popery should come in it would be but short lived but Presbyterie was like to be long lived The Arminians in the Netherlands at first desired but a toleration no more but to be permitted to enjoy in some Churches of their own their consciences with peaceableneâ—… but afterwards that by the connivance and favour of the Magistrates they were in some Cities and places as Amsterdam c. grown to a great number and had a great power then they would not suffer noâ—… tolerate the orthodox Ministers but persecuted them and some were forced to flie as in the stories of the Netherlands is at large recorded And if ever the Independents by connivance or a toleration should come to have a power and strength considerable if they serve not us so I am much deceived All Sectaries and erroâ—…eous spirits who are but tolerated and not owned will watch all advantages to set up their own way as chiefe and when they have a power will be impetuous and violent to effect it as the Anabaptists in Germanie were the Arminians in Holland and the Antinomians and Familists in New-England As women out of their weakenesse and feare when they have power over any are most cruell so Sectaries out of their feare least a State may one time or other cast them out and not tolerate them will upon an advantage suppresse and destroy the orthodox and stablish their own 2. As for the matter it selfe contained in the close of your booke a Toleration of Independent Churches and government the scope and last end of this Apologie whereunto tends all the artifice and fallacies in the composure of it I shall lay downe some Reasons and grounds against it I cannot stand to handle the question at large about tolerations of different Religions or of divers Sects and opinions in one and the same Kingdome this answer being already a great deale longer then I intended it I cannot now open the tearmes and premise the distinctions as distinguishing concerning the nature and kind of errors concerning the persons erring concerning the kinds and degrees of toleration and coaction c. I shall reserve the full handling of this point whether toleration be lawfull to a particular Tractate I intend upon that subject In the meane time upon occasion of what you present here to the Parliament I shall humbly submit to their considerations these following particulars 1. A Toleration of Independent Churches and government with their opinions and practise is against the Magistrates duty laid downe in Scripture but for Magistrates by good lawes to command and require obedience to the government and Reformation upon good grounds judged to be according to the word of God and so established is lawfull and their duties For the clearing of which I premise two things which I suppose must needs be granted 1. That the Magistrate is custos ac vindeâ—… utriusque Tabula as is confessed by all orthodox Divines that the care of Religion belongs to him and that he is to looke to it that the Church of God and the Government of it be constituted and setled according to the Word and that the people may lead a peaceable and quiet life in all godlinesse and honestie for which end Princes and Magistrates are to make Lawes for the observing of the Worship and Government of Christs Church forbidding and punishing with religious severitie those things which are practised against the Word of God but commanding what is according to it this is one of the great services they yeeld to Christ as they are Magistrates and I find Augustine and other Divines giving that sense of Psal. 2. 10 11. of Kings and Iudges serving the Lord with feare and of Deut. 17. 19. of God commanding the King to read the booke of the Law that he may learn to observe the things which are written in it not onely as private men practising these and ordering their lives according to the Word but as Kings they should order their Office by the Word not onely by living holily for so they serve God as men but as Kings and Magistrates by making Lawes for the Worship of God and prohibiting the contrary 2. That the Reformation in Worship Government c. which shall be setled and established by the Parliament is judged and taken for granted by them to be according to the minde of Christ else why have they called so many able godly and learned Divines to consult with for that purpose and stood so much for a Reformation according to the Word and why else will they establish it if there be any other more agreeable to the Word so that whatsoever other Government after all debates and Reasonings is rejected and refused must be thought not to have such a ground in the Word for if it had why was it not established and owned but comes to seeke for a Toleration and Connivance Now then by vertue of many Scriptures both in the old and new Testament the Examples of the Kings of Judah in commanding and requiring all the people to yeeld to the Reformations made by them and in particular the Spirit of God commending Iosiah for making all Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to the Covenant which he had made with God the fourth Commandement requiring of the Father of the Family that he see
issue and all is resolved into the body of the Congregation and their power from first to last amongst the Apologists as well as amongst the Brownists though here 't is carried in a fairer way as fine wits must doe and that they may have something to say wherein they are not Brownists but of this the Reader may see more in this Answer page 204 205 206. 8. The Presbyteriall way the order and governmeâ—… of the reformed Churches hath been countenanced from Heaven and blessed from above with the preservation of the truth and unitie of Religion against heresies and errors in Doctrine Idolatry and corruption in worship and all sorts of sects and â—…chisme it hath been free of those mischiefes and evills of errors and divisions which the Independent Churches have swarmed with and that through a long tract of time and the experience of almost a hundred yeeres together In reformed Churches where this government hath been set up and hath had its free way and exercise even where it hath wanted the advantages of the Magistrate being a member of the Church and hath had many disadvantages in regard of the spirits and dispositions of the people with many temptations to errors yet it hath in those places kept out errors and schismes preserved puritie of doctrine and peace For example in the Churches of France it is evident by many yeeres experiences though their Princes be popish and they live in the midst of Papists yet by Gods blessing upon their government and order their Churches have been and are pure in doctrine few or none falling to Popery Arminianisme or to sects and schâ—…smes and when any errors doe arise amongst them yet by meanes of that governement they are soone suppressed and prevented from spreading It was the observation of Beza in his time of the French Churches though France was grievously afflicted and oppressed by many yet for that which concerned Religion it was free from all troubles and stirrs And yet notwithstanding there was nothing wanting of all those things by which Satan might easily draw and move the French to all kind of troubles for example an inbred naturall lightnesse in that Nation wits very ready for subtiltie and â—…iceties the mind of the Magistrates intent also upon it that all manner of wayes the Christian Churches might destroy themselves with their inward dissentions notwithstanding all this no strength of the adversaries hitherto no not in the midst of all the tempests of warre hath been able to beare thorough the most strong buâ—…warke and wall of Ecclesiasticall discipline For the Church of Scotland I have heard it often and that from good hands that during the free use and exercise of Presbyteriall government there never any heresie or schisme tooke the third man but by meanes of that governement it hath been pul'd up at first and either the particular person broaching the errour recovered or however prevented before three have beene infected with it Beza in his first Epistle gives a notable testimony to this government by the blessing of God upon it in the City of Geneva Geneva be it spoken without offence hath rather escaped then overcome all the inward tempests against Religion so great as no City perhaps under Heaven hath done the like it never yet felt any differences nor contentions of the Pastors amongst themselves in points of doctrine 't is free from the furies of the Anabaptists the contagion of the Libertines the blasphemies of Servetians a City otherwise open to all strangers and comers and for that cause very fit and subject to the wiles of Satan But truly it owes all this by Gods blessing to the Ecclesiasticall discipline duely and diligently observed which also now causes that all sorts almost out of all nations under Heaven there gathered together in peace and in true liberty of conscience doe willingly accord together The Commissioners of the Church of Scotland tell us that this government hath made the Church of Christ terrible as an army with banners and like a strong and fenced City against which the adversaries have despaired to prevaile but by making a breach in this wall and where they have gained ground or gotten any advantage either the wall hath not been built or being built hath been broken down or not vigilantly kept by the watchmen But there will be objected against this a passage lately printed in a book of Mr Simpsons that there have beene as great defections both of Ministers and people unto errors under Presbyteriall government as under any other as it is cleare in the Low-Countries where so many Ministers and people turned Arminians Papists Socinians I have instanced in severall reformed Churches and showed Gods blessing upon Presbyteriall government here 's only one instance among all the reformed Churches brought against it and to that I shall give these three answers Though the Churches in the Low-Countries are Presbyteriall yet withall ther 's a Toleration of other Churches and government there which is one of the causes of it and hinders Presbyteriall government A Toleration will spoile any Church and government if Presbyteriall government be setled and a Toleration given in this Land that will marre all so that the Parliament may be pleased to take notice by this and observe the difference between those Churches which have no Tolerations as Scotland Geneva and the Low-Countries which grant a Toleration the one are pure in doctrine c. the other makes Ministers and people turne Arminians Socinians c. 2 Answ. There 's another Reason why it may so fall out in the Low-Countries because Presbyteriall government hath not its free course there in Synods but 't is much disturbed over 't is in France Geneva Scotland whereas by their Canons and Constitutions in the Netherlands there should be a Nationall Synod once in three yeeres they have not nor cannot procure one in twenty yeeres and upwards and whereas Provinciall Synods should be yeerely they have them in some Provinces but once in five and seven yeeres besides there are other disturbances in Presbyteriall government which hinders the free course of it in Holland many encroachments are made upon the rights of their Church due to them by vertue of their discipline and heretofore established In a word that Anabaptisticall and Familisticall spirit in many and that corrupt spirit and principles in others with those principles of Toleration doth much check and stop Presbyteriall government from having its perfect worke and bringing forth its full effects The true Reason of so many Ministers and people turning Arminians and Socinians in the Low-Countries was the want of Synods which Arminius and his followers alwayes declined and by flattering the Magistrates kept off for many yeares in which time so many fell whereas if Presbyteriall government had had its course and a Nationall Synod had been called yea but a Provinciall for the Arminians to have answered in at first before it had so much